06/12/2013 Newsnight


06/12/2013

Bill Clinton, Michael Buerk, Justice Malala, Julius Malema and Nadine Gordimer on Nelson Mandela. The 80s and how he was received in Brixton. Plus, the UK economy.


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Transcript


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This programme contains some strong language.

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They were two iconic world leaders who spent the closing years of the

:00:12.:00:16.

20th century in charge of the respective countries. Tonight Bill

:00:17.:00:19.

Clinton speaks for the first time since Nelson Mandela's death, paying

:00:20.:00:23.

a moving and eloquent tribute to the fellow politician who became a

:00:24.:00:27.

friend. When he smiled at you, if you looked in his eyes you knew he

:00:28.:00:33.

was not just smiling, he was looking in your soul. Searching around for

:00:34.:00:40.

what was really going on. We were arrested, there appeared no legal

:00:41.:00:44.

reason and eventually leased. And Michael Burke, the BBC's man in 80s

:00:45.:00:50.

apartheid South Africa charts Nelson Mandela as life and legacy. We will

:00:51.:00:53.

hear from Nadine Gordimer, the lifetime friend of Nelson Mandela,

:00:54.:00:57.

who was there as he was handed his prison sentence. And, is this

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devisive figure the future of South Africa. We are a Government in

:01:03.:01:06.

waiting and I'm the leader of that Government in waiting. We shall

:01:07.:01:15.

fulfil where President Madiba left. Today Britain stands united in

:01:16.:01:21.

respect. In the 1980s Nelson Mandela divided this country. The UK's

:01:22.:01:27.

former man in Pretoria, and Labour MP, Diane Abbot reflect on the time.

:01:28.:01:31.

Is the UK's economy really motoring, the Newsnight Robin Reliant is fired

:01:32.:01:44.

up. Good evening, flags and cities across the globe are flying at half

:01:45.:01:47.

mast, and leaders and countries all over the world have spoken of a

:01:48.:01:51.

giant among men, an outstanding politician, an African son and hero.

:01:52.:01:56.

From the Pope who paid tribute to Nulecit steadfast commitment in

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promoting the human dignity of all citizens, to the Cuban state

:02:03.:02:06.

newspaper who wrote that his legacy will continue to inspire future

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generations of revolutionaries. Everyone has something to say about

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Nelson Mandela. Not least former US President, Bill Clinton, who earlier

:02:16.:02:20.

today granted Newsnight his first interview since Nelson Mandela's

:02:21.:02:22.

death. One of the things I noticed yesterday, everybody talked about

:02:23.:02:29.

what a magnificent example he was and both giving up his anger to

:02:30.:02:34.

govern inclusively and also leaving power, but he was actually a very

:02:35.:02:39.

good President, he was a faithful representative of all of his people

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and of his nation in the national interest. And I thought it was

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amazing given how long he had been in prison how quickly he got up to

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speed. He made a good decision to keep the people in the Government

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around him, keep them serving while he brought in some of his own

:02:58.:03:00.

people. He really did a good job as President. I loved dealing with him.

:03:01.:03:06.

It was all business. We would do our business and be friends again, even

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if we were just on the phone. We would spend ten or 15 minutes

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talking about personal things, but always after business first. Do you

:03:15.:03:20.

think you learned a lot from him? Oh a lot. He was uncommonly kind to me.

:03:21.:03:26.

The closer we got personally, although as I said we continued to

:03:27.:03:30.

have arguments, on a couple of occasions we had very sharp

:03:31.:03:37.

arguments. About what? We argued about the chairmanship of South

:03:38.:03:45.

Africa from the land mine issue, I wanted to do more than all the other

:03:46.:03:50.

countries in the world to get rid of land mines and some people drew the

:03:51.:03:56.

treaty to rid of the antitank mines so only the European ones would be

:03:57.:04:01.

available for purchase, it made me mad. And Mandela's apppointee was

:04:02.:04:07.

the chairmanship. We said we wouldn't change it once we got the

:04:08.:04:10.

final draft and I'm not going to change it. I also used to rib him

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about Cuba. One of the things I really admired about him is he was

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fan natically loyal after he became President to the countries that

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supported him and the ANC while in prison. I remember one night we were

:04:25.:04:37.

overries that supported him and the ANC while in prison. I remember one

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night we were over there seven years ago for his birthday, and I took my

:04:41.:04:43.

whole American delegation there, we participated and raised money for

:04:44.:04:45.

the foundation. We had a little auction, one of the things auctioned

:04:46.:04:51.

was a valuable bottle of rum that Fidel Castro had given him. Some

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people were there and they said President Clinton you should buy

:04:56.:04:59.

this in honour of Mandela, so I purchased it at auction and then I

:05:00.:05:03.

had to give it away before I came back to the United States because I

:05:04.:05:07.

didn't want to violate the embargo. When you think of his many

:05:08.:05:14.

achievements, people talk about his great capacity for For giveness, do

:05:15.:05:24.

you think that turned -- for he forgiveness, was that his strength

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with the truth and reconciliation? I said how do you do this had you to

:05:29.:05:33.

hate those people, with look what they did to you. He said I was young

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and strong in prison and for 11 years I lived on my hatred. And one

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day I was breaking rocks and thinking all they had done to me and

:05:45.:05:48.

taken from me, they had abused me emotionally and physically, and

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taken way the right for me to see my children glow up and eventually

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destroyed my marriage, I realised they could take everything except my

:05:58.:06:01.

mind and my heart. Those things I decided not to give away. He looked

:06:02.:06:06.

at me because in the middle of all the fun I had with Congress, he

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smiled and said "neither should you". He was always just saying

:06:12.:06:17.

stuff like that. Just bending over backwards trying to be a true

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friend. Did he talk to you about that sadness though, that must have

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accompanied him through his life about the sacrifice that he and his

:06:25.:06:28.

family had made, and he lost his personal life. He lost a close

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relationship with many of his family members, that must have troubled him

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deeply? It did bother him, but he had an iron will and he realised

:06:39.:06:44.

that his will first needed to be applied to the mind and heart he had

:06:45.:06:51.

saved, and he really disciplined himself to get over both anger and

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regret in a hurry. You could see it, if you knew him well and you spent a

:06:57.:07:01.

lot of time with him, you could see these things come up. I'm one of the

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few people, I guess, that ever saw him really mad. He was even really

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mad at me a time or two. He would get over T you could see his mind

:07:12.:07:16.

kick in, his iron will, he knew he had to live in the present and think

:07:17.:07:20.

of the future. It was liberating, just like the forgiveness was

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liberating, he realised without for giveness he would -- forgiveness he

:07:25.:07:28.

would never be free or make other people free, or give them permission

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to forgive and trust. You know trust is something it is in pretty short

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supply in the world today. Mandela had it a million-fold, because he

:07:39.:07:45.

was trusting in people they thought I can't believe's trusting us, but

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he did. Unlike Martin Luther king, he He -- king, he embraced armed

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struggle, was that a conflict? He had within the country, in my mind

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serves me well, the United States was part of an armed struggle when

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part of King George's empire. His view was at the time there was no

:08:16.:08:24.

way Way out, and he was young -- no way out, and he was young, and the

:08:25.:08:28.

people of South Africa had been enslaved and in servitude in a

:08:29.:08:35.

violent and repressive way for a long time. But something burned in

:08:36.:08:41.

him when he basically began to grow spiritually. After he had been in

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prison more than a year, and he realised that the ultimate victory

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would be for the people of South Africa to be in a democracy that had

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a chance to work, that had a chaps to function. And that in order to do

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that, he had to demonstrate a whole given kind of leadership and adopt a

:09:02.:09:05.

different strategy. I think he had come to that while he was in prison.

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Prison. I imagine there will be a state funeral and you will be going

:09:15.:09:18.

to that, if you are called upon to speak, what will you say you will

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miss about him the most? I will miss the light that he caused to come on

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in the lives of everybody he touched. When you were around

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Mandela you wanted to be a bigger person. You knew you could be better

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than you were, you knew that you had to concentrate on the big things,

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and let little things go, and you had to overcome your own

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resentments. I watched him do it, and almost as if I were inside his

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brain for all those years we became friends. Both when he was President

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and later when we worked on AIDS together for years and years. I will

:10:00.:10:04.

miss that. When he smiled at you, if you looked in his eyes you knew he

:10:05.:10:10.

was not just smiling, he was looking in your soul. Searching around for

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what was really going on. And figuring it out and he knew just

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what to say and how to say it. That was an uncommon gift that he gave to

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everyone he cared about. I will miss that. And people all over the world

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could see it. They could see it in the way he carried himself and the

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way he spoke. It wasn't that he stopped being a citizen, that he

:10:34.:10:36.

stopped having convictions on the issues, that he stopped having

:10:37.:10:40.

disagreements even with his friends, it was that there was a bigger

:10:41.:10:44.

reality, that our common humanity is the thing that matters most, and the

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thing that ought to animate all our endeavours, personally and publicly.

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Thank you so much. Thank you. Bill Clinton speaking to me earlier from

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his home in upstate New York. What was it like living and working in

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apartheid South Africa as an outsider? Michael Burke was the

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BBC's South Africa correspondent from 1983-1987. Newsnight asked him

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to revisit some of his own reports from the down paint a picture of

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Nelson Mandela and his -- from the country to paint a picture of Nelson

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Mandela and his life. Nelson Mandela lived and died in the

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suburb of Houghton. Most of his neighbours who turned out to mourn

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him are white, but it is economics not apartheid now. They were

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grieving a convicted terrorist who turned their world upside down but

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also it stayed the same. It could have been so different. When I went

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to the 1980s South Africa was trapped between revolution, the

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whites were trying to preserve things, and the blacks were

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beginning to lose patience. The young were particularly angry, the

:11:58.:12:02.

lid was about to come off. It was a terribly violent country. Brutal

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undercurrents flowed through the cultures of both races, it wasn't

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just apartheid that brought them to the surface. In Soweto, 25 domestic

:12:15.:12:22.

murders a weekend were routine. Most whites seemed to have guns and few

:12:23.:12:33.

inhibitions about using them. The security forces had few restraints.

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As the children rioted, they were ambushed. At least three coloured

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youths were killed outright before they could take cover. The police

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said they were using bird shot, designed to wound not kill, but at

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short range the ammunition was bill dead low and nearby buildings were

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peppered with gun shots. More than 20 were wounded, three of them

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seriously, many others were taken secretly to be treated in private

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for fear of arrest. Our cameras recorded it in all its brutal

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intensity and sent the pictures around the world. They hated us. You

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people get out now very quickly OK. Because you people are the locking

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cause of this now, get out. The battlegrounds of apartheid were the

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townships, where blacks were lucky to be allowed to live, though still

:13:35.:13:39.

as foreigners in their own land. 12 miles up the road and a world away

:13:40.:13:51.

was where I lived. Our white suburbs were dedicated to the pursuit of

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graciousness, when our blacks were hungry we didn't tell them to eat

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cake, we ate it ourselves. This banquet in aid of the starving was

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held with the country in a state of merge -- emergency and the townships

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in a mess. There were more important things to talk about. What are

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exercise It is a more complicated issue than most people realise, the

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central truth is this is apartheid, and this isn't changing. The white

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conscripts army crushed the township uprising, while we reporters were

:15:12.:15:16.

gagged by a state of emergency. There had been no real organisation,

:15:17.:15:21.

the ANC leaders in exile and in jail were on the sidelines. By now the

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world had turned its back on white South Africa, credit of both kinds

:15:26.:15:28.

were running out. The unthinkable had become the inevitable.

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Good evening, Nelson Mandela walked away from 27 years in prison today

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after 10,000 days in jail the world's most famous prisoner walks

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out through the prison gates. He tells a mass rally in Cape Town

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sanctions must remain, the armed struggle must go on. The armed

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struggle and the reason we are in it still exists today. He emerged into

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a world sanctfied by suffering, a politician that never had to bother

:16:19.:16:23.

with the messy compromises of politics. All those hopes and fears

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invested in a man almost everybody was seeing for the first time. He

:16:28.:16:34.

was faithed for his dignity and his grace d feted for his dignity and

:16:35.:16:40.

graze. He was a wooden speaker with little taste for administration,

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nobody else could carry the burden of expectation. Will they expect

:16:45.:16:50.

things quickly and is that a burden to you? It is an expectation, and

:16:51.:16:55.

justified. In township, where the sheet flowed in the streets, and the

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wagon offered one of the few jobs around, they expected miracles. The

:16:59.:17:03.

ANC promised there will be housing, schooling, education, there will be

:17:04.:17:07.

that and that and that. Will you give them one year, two years, three

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years, four years? After the 27th I would give them two months. Life

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mostly did get better, but the economy has stalled, half the young

:17:16.:17:19.

people are unemployed, the ANC has grown fat on 20 years of

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unchallenged rule, and worries about the young radical left. But it still

:17:24.:17:28.

seems a miracle. Mandela is dead, but the dream is still alive. As

:17:29.:17:35.

Michael Burke has just said, for a younger generation of South Africans

:17:36.:17:41.

the hope and idealism occasioned by Nelson Mandela's presidency have

:17:42.:17:45.

given way in recent years to new political challenges, not least the

:17:46.:17:49.

future of the ANC, accused by some who have failed do enough to close

:17:50.:17:51.

the yawning gap in the country between rich and poor. What will

:17:52.:17:55.

Mandela's death mean for the democracy he created. A little

:17:56.:17:59.

earlier I spoke to political commentator, Jack Malvern in Justice

:18:00.:18:08.

Malala and talked about the mood of change today. It is amazing in the

:18:09.:18:13.

sense here you had a nation who was waiting for this to happen, andent

:18:14.:18:16.

the news came it was a bit of a shock. We all were hit, we sort of

:18:17.:18:23.

stopped and reflected and it was a shock. Today it is turned from pain,

:18:24.:18:30.

reminiscence, nostalgia to celebration, wow, Nelson Mandela

:18:31.:18:35.

lived among us and this is, this has been, we have been touched amazingly

:18:36.:18:39.

by a fantastic amazing human being. So, yes, it has moved, and if you

:18:40.:18:46.

look at the images this evening of people flocking to Nelson Mandela's

:18:47.:18:50.

house and his old home in Soweto, it is sort of let's go and be part of

:18:51.:18:55.

history. Let's go touch a bit of it. So it is celebration, the shock has

:18:56.:19:00.

sort of worn off and it is wow, he was here. But do you think that

:19:01.:19:05.

Nelson Mandela, as a kind of a giant of the ANC, with him gone,

:19:06.:19:10.

symbolically, will the ANC change, because the ANC itself is under a

:19:11.:19:14.

lot of pressure, it has been in power for 18 years, do you think we

:19:15.:19:19.

will see a big upheaval in the political landscape? I think South

:19:20.:19:22.

Africa is at a bit of a tipping point in the political sphere.

:19:23.:19:27.

Firstly the ANC that we have today is not the ANC of Nelson Mandela, a

:19:28.:19:31.

lot of people say look at the head of the ANC, President Zuma, who

:19:32.:19:36.

announced President Mandela's death last night. This is a man who is

:19:37.:19:42.

mired in controversy right now, remember he's built himself a DLO

:19:43.:19:51.

$20 million house in his home village, and many people are saying

:19:52.:19:57.

how can you build a $20 million house? Right from the top many

:19:58.:20:01.

officials are mired in corruption allegation, a lot of people are

:20:02.:20:05.

asking questions about what this ANC is like. Then there is new players

:20:06.:20:08.

coming on to the political field, a lot of people are saying, well, the

:20:09.:20:13.

ANC in this election will not enjoy the two thirds majority it enjoyed

:20:14.:20:19.

in 1999 and 2004, it will not enjoy the support it enjoyed in 2009, that

:20:20.:20:24.

support will go below 60%. Remember it is at 65. 9% right now. And many,

:20:25.:20:30.

many people are saying there will be challengers to the ANC, many of them

:20:31.:20:36.

are coming through a former ANC firebrand who has started his own

:20:37.:20:43.

party. He's speaking the language of Robert Mugabe, nationalise and land

:20:44.:20:46.

compensation. These are some of the challenges that face the ANC. The

:20:47.:20:50.

key question about Nelson Mandela's passing is whether people will

:20:51.:20:54.

remember Nelson Mandela and vote on the basis of loving Nelson Mandela

:20:55.:20:59.

and continue to vote for the ANC. That is a big factor in the

:21:00.:21:02.

elections which may happen in the next was Did people understood what

:21:03.:22:20.

President Mandela was, a revolutiony? We understood what he

:22:21.:22:24.

was, President Mandela was a fighter, a militant radical young

:22:25.:22:27.

person, and we have had an opportunity some of us to serve in

:22:28.:22:31.

the same organisation, he served, some of us had an opportunity to

:22:32.:22:37.

occupy the same position President Mandela occupied when he was a young

:22:38.:22:45.

activist in the African National Congress. So therefore, in

:22:46.:22:50.

everything else we do, we seek to be like him and we understand what he

:22:51.:22:55.

represented as a father of the nation. Nelson Mandela would never

:22:56.:23:00.

have surely agreed with your policy of seizing white farms? President

:23:01.:23:07.

Mandela believed in the freedom charter, the freedom charter of

:23:08.:23:10.

which he was a volunteer says the land shall be shared amongst those

:23:11.:23:17.

who work it. And he believed in the people of South Africa sharing the

:23:18.:23:27.

land. He actually has fought for the reinstatement of the land into the

:23:28.:23:32.

hands of the rightful owners. Yours are the politics of Robert Mugabe,

:23:33.:23:37.

not Nelson Mandela? No, no, no, no. Our politics are inspired by both.

:23:38.:23:44.

Remember President Mugabe and President Mandela are the products

:23:45.:23:50.

of the same youth formation. Both of them served in the ANC youth league.

:23:51.:23:59.

Therefore their struggle has been the restoration of dignity to the

:24:00.:24:05.

African people. We think that they remain an inspiration to many young

:24:06.:24:10.

people who are actively participating in the struggle for

:24:11.:24:15.

the restoration of the dignity of the oppressed African masses in

:24:16.:24:19.

southern Africa. You are facing charges of fraud and money

:24:20.:24:23.

laundering, corruption charges, these are surely not the attributes

:24:24.:24:27.

of a leader, somebody that wants to be President of South Africa? Look

:24:28.:24:32.

those charges are manufactured by those who cannot merge our political

:24:33.:24:41.

ideas. They are suffering from poverty of ideas and as a result

:24:42.:24:46.

because they are unable to defeat us ideolgically, and theologically,

:24:47.:24:51.

they are now opting for monkey tricks and manipulating state

:24:52.:24:56.

institutions to settle political differences. I have no worries, I

:24:57.:25:01.

actually believe that within a short space of time, before we know it,

:25:02.:25:08.

these charges will be cleared by the national prosecuting authority. Are

:25:09.:25:10.

you contesting seats in the elections in April next year, and if

:25:11.:25:15.

you are, do you expect to win and will that be a step on the road to

:25:16.:25:32.

President President Malema? We are contesting elections and we are a

:25:33.:25:34.

Government in waiting and I'm a President in waiting, we will

:25:35.:25:40.

continue where President Mandela left. We will continue with the

:25:41.:25:45.

struggle for total emancipation of our people. We are confident we are

:25:46.:25:49.

a viable alternative here in South Africa, because those who are in

:25:50.:25:54.

power today have undermined the legacy of President Mandela, they

:25:55.:26:00.

are now a self-serving people, they are stealing from the poor to

:26:01.:26:04.

benefit themselves and their immediate ones. We want to undermine

:26:05.:26:09.

that by restoring thing willcy of President Mandela, where we bring

:26:10.:26:13.

about an accountable Government which will deliver to the poorest of

:26:14.:26:25.

the poor. Which will deliver to the poorest of the poor. The release of

:26:26.:26:28.

Nelson Mandela came after a decade of international pressure. In this

:26:29.:26:33.

country a generation of campaigners organised boycotts and protested

:26:34.:26:36.

outside the South African embassy. Six years later tens of thousands

:26:37.:26:41.

greeted Mandela, by then South African President on a famous walk

:26:42.:26:45.

about in Brixton. What does he mean to today's generation of British

:26:46.:26:48.

teenagers born in the years after his release. We went back to Brixton

:26:49.:26:55.

to find out. It was like the biggest popstar the world had ever seen

:26:56.:27:00.

coming to London and Brixton. People were unbelievably excited. There

:27:01.:27:04.

were thousands of people lining the streets and barricades all down

:27:05.:27:08.

here. The sound systems were playing, and people really, really

:27:09.:27:14.

excited. We had people in tears. The crowd danced Calypso, as Nelson

:27:15.:27:18.

Mandela turned up in Brixton. For many it was a symbol that something

:27:19.:27:23.

was changing, not just in South Africa but this country as well. Mel

:27:24.:27:27.

Milbourne was forced to flee South Africa as a 20-year-old, and this

:27:28.:27:40.

Lela Kogbara was a campaigner, both were instrumental in bringing him

:27:41.:27:45.

here. It was a thank you for all we did to put the pressure on the South

:27:46.:27:47.

African Government, it was instrumental to bringing apartheid

:27:48.:27:51.

down. My father being white, my mother being black, being in South

:27:52.:27:54.

African under the apartheid laws they could not be a legaln'tity, the

:27:55.:27:58.

result of which the house was raided, my mother was forced to

:27:59.:28:02.

leave the country and I then followed subsequently to London. A

:28:03.:28:09.

three-minute walk down the road, a new generation born around the time

:28:10.:28:15.

Mandela toured this part of London and making an on-line magazine. We

:28:16.:28:20.

brought them together to see how attitudes had changedtime Mandela

:28:21.:28:32.

toured this part of London and making an on-line magazine. We

:28:33.:28:34.

brought them together to see how attitudes had changed. I got on a

:28:35.:28:37.

bus and I went to the front of the, but and the bus driver said you have

:28:38.:28:41.

to go to the back. I said why the back because I'm comfortable here,

:28:42.:28:43.

he said because you are black you have to sit in the black. I can't

:28:44.:28:46.

understand how anyone would deal with that. If someone told me I

:28:47.:28:49.

couldn't be in a shop or place or bus because I was a certain colour,

:28:50.:28:51.

I would not tolerate it, I'm programmed to think, sorry if I need

:28:52.:28:54.

or want to be here I can be here, you are not going to stop me from

:28:55.:28:58.

being in a place because of the colour of my skin, it is ridiculous

:28:59.:29:01.

to me. I don't understand it. Me personally I'm from a family where

:29:02.:29:05.

my grandmother is white, but I have got black family, I have white

:29:06.:29:09.

family. To me I grew up never thinking of it as something

:29:10.:29:13.

important, until I got to a certain age it became a lot more apparent.

:29:14.:29:17.

And I think that's the important thing about things like apartheid,

:29:18.:29:21.

people like Nelson Mandela, he broke down those barriers. You are made to

:29:22.:29:25.

feel in a kind of ostracised because of the colour of your skin, it

:29:26.:29:28.

happens in so many different contexts. Again it is not apartheid

:29:29.:29:32.

on that level, but it is still, there is some residue of that we do

:29:33.:29:37.

still see. That's our generation's fight. So Lela, you were quite

:29:38.:29:41.

involved in the antiapartheid movement in the 1980s, what did

:29:42.:29:46.

Nelson Mandela mean to you back then? I felt angry, I was really,

:29:47.:29:51.

really angry as a young black person in this country, and I just couldn't

:29:52.:29:56.

imagine why you would have a system like apartheid. That was the main

:29:57.:30:00.

thing, it wasn't this big peaceful love-in, at the time, and even when

:30:01.:30:05.

Mandela was released and he was preaching peace at one point I

:30:06.:30:10.

thought hang on a minute, do we really, why don't we punish these

:30:11.:30:13.

people for what they have done. I think one of his best legacies is

:30:14.:30:17.

the fact that he chose a path of peace. Is Nelson Mandela then still

:30:18.:30:22.

relevant to you and your generation today? 100% and he always will be.

:30:23.:30:27.

When he passed I was kind of heard the news on Twitter, he spent his

:30:28.:30:31.

whole life fighting for us, it is our generation's turn now and it is

:30:32.:30:36.

our obligation, it is what we are meant to be doing to make sure that

:30:37.:30:43.

his word is never stopped getting retweeted and favourited and spread

:30:44.:30:47.

all around the world. In the 1980s when Margaret Thatcher was at the

:30:48.:30:52.

helm, attitudes to Nelson Mandela's incarceration and apartheid was not

:30:53.:30:56.

as they are now. There wassam bitch lens about the armed struggle and

:30:57.:30:59.

divisions about sanctions on the left and right. Diane Abbot was

:31:00.:31:04.

elected Britain's first black MP at the height of the furore, and Lord

:31:05.:31:12.

Renwick from the late 1980s was there. Now French the Daily Mail to

:31:13.:31:28.

the Mirror is lawing Nelson Mandela. It is extraordinary, some Tory

:31:29.:31:34.

leaders were saying Nelson Mandela should be hanged and Margaret

:31:35.:31:39.

Thatcher said a the ANC was a typical terrorist organisation and

:31:40.:31:44.

anyone who said they would run South Africa was living in cuckoo hand.

:31:45.:31:51.

She was lukewarm about sanctions? She put in oil and other sanctions,

:31:52.:31:55.

she thought it was complete nonsense to cut off air links and put

:31:56.:32:00.

sanctions on agricultural exports which put tens of thousands of black

:32:01.:32:05.

South Africans out of work with no alternative employment and no social

:32:06.:32:09.

safety net. But I was in the middle of this. Even though what you would

:32:10.:32:15.

say, obviously Nelson Mandela, but black activists were saying put the

:32:16.:32:18.

sanctions on? Many of them were, absolutely. I was right in the

:32:19.:32:23.

middle of this, I was her envoy to Pretoria, my instructions were

:32:24.:32:27.

clear, To do everything I could to help get Nelson Mandela out of jail.

:32:28.:32:31.

Now as long as Botha was there we had no charges when De Klerk took

:32:32.:32:35.

over, he was a friend of mine and an admirer of her's. At midnight on the

:32:36.:32:40.

night before he made his speech unbanning the ANC he telephoned me

:32:41.:32:45.

and he said you can tell your Prime Minister she will not be

:32:46.:32:50.

disappointed. That was very much Mrs Thatcher's influence, do you accept

:32:51.:32:54.

that? That is very touching but getting Nelson Mandela out of jail

:32:55.:32:56.

is one thing, defeating apartheid was another. Denis Thatcher, who I

:32:57.:33:01.

think very often reflected Mrs Thatcher's real views, used to call

:33:02.:33:06.

South Africa "God's own country", WLFS the the If Mrs Thatcher was a

:33:07.:33:33.

supporter of the struggle she kept it quiet at the time? I don't agree

:33:34.:33:39.

with Diane and neither did Nelson Mandela. When he was released, I

:33:40.:33:45.

used to see him every single week, we had to train his bodies guards

:33:46.:33:48.

and look at the security around his house and helped in negotiations

:33:49.:33:51.

with the Government. He didn't want to fight with Mrs Thatcher, what he

:33:52.:33:55.

wanted to know with me, and he said I was the adviser on this, was how

:33:56.:33:59.

to get her on his side. When I came to the meeting with her I was there,

:34:00.:34:04.

and I told her you mustn't interrupt him. And she didn't interrupt him

:34:05.:34:08.

for a whole hour. Is that very unusual for her? Indeed it was, as

:34:09.:34:12.

he told her all about the struggle with human rights, and exactly as I

:34:13.:34:17.

told him she would, at the end of that she said we support you on all

:34:18.:34:21.

of that, but stop all the nonsense about nationalising the banks and

:34:22.:34:28.

the mines. So what you are essentially saying it was the

:34:29.:34:30.

politics of the free market that dictated the approach? No, she

:34:31.:34:36.

thought having met him that he was, he had exactly the same effect on

:34:37.:34:42.

her as everybody else, she was immensely impressed, but she thought

:34:43.:34:44.

that he didn't know much about economics. The meeting on went on so

:34:45.:34:50.

long. So you would say that was patronising? To be honest she didn't

:34:51.:34:55.

think many people knew much about economics, that was one of our

:34:56.:35:01.

characteristics, the anti--apartheid struggle was a struggle of the

:35:02.:35:05.

generation, there was a dividing line and those who wanted to bring

:35:06.:35:10.

down party. You think it is a rewriting of history? I think so,

:35:11.:35:17.

they can do, but those of us who were active at the time understood

:35:18.:35:21.

where Mrs Thatcher and a lot of MPs stood. It is so strange to hear them

:35:22.:35:28.

they loved Nelson Mandela and hated apartheid, it didn't look like it at

:35:29.:35:33.

the time? Diane won't believe this but we wanted the same objective. At

:35:34.:35:38.

the end of the meeting he walked out into Downing Street and thanked her

:35:39.:35:40.

for everything she had done to help secure his release. He knew exactly

:35:41.:35:45.

what they were doing, because I was able to tell him so in prison. Thank

:35:46.:35:53.

you very much. Now that the dust has settled and George Osborne's big day

:35:54.:35:56.

out, the Autumn Statement can be surveyed with both the benefit of a

:35:57.:36:00.

little distance and the interpretation of the Institute of

:36:01.:36:05.

Fiscal Studies with follows the Autumn Statement as night follows

:36:06.:36:08.

day, growth is up and benefits bill down, but how does it feel for you

:36:09.:36:12.

the people are you better off. The Tories say yes, and Labour no, and

:36:13.:36:18.

the IFS is with Labour on this one. Is the economy motoring again? If

:36:19.:36:26.

this little Robin Reliant were the economy, it is nippier than we

:36:27.:36:30.

thought. It had dodgy years but picking up speed. Today the

:36:31.:36:32.

Chancellor's claim that we are feeling the benefit of that was

:36:33.:36:37.

challenged. This is how the official forecast for economic growth has

:36:38.:36:41.

changed in eight months. This year from 0. 6%-1. 4%, and next year from

:36:42.:36:49.

1. 8%-2. 4%. Just six months ago it looked as though we were stalling,

:36:50.:36:54.

black smoke out the back of the exhaust, we looked like a write-off,

:36:55.:36:58.

now we are cruising along at speed. We are the fastest-growing major

:36:59.:37:04.

economy. And the faster growth is driving the deficit down as tax and

:37:05.:37:09.

VAT is rolling in, less is being spent on benefits. But are we

:37:10.:37:14.

feeling the recovery? Labour's claim is working people are on average

:37:15.:37:19.

?1,600 worse off than when David Cameron took power. Yesterday George

:37:20.:37:23.

Osborne seemed to refute that. And yes, real household disposable

:37:24.:37:29.

income is rising. But today the independent Institute for Fiscal

:37:30.:37:31.

Studies said the Chancellor's numbers didn't show quite what they

:37:32.:37:36.

seemed to. The real disposable income is forecast to have increased

:37:37.:37:42.

by 0. 5% in 2015, but the population is increasing so the income per

:37:43.:37:46.

person is forecast to fall very slightly, which might seem at odds

:37:47.:37:49.

with what George Osborne has been saying. According to the measure of

:37:50.:37:54.

household disposable income per person, incomes in 2016 will be very

:37:55.:37:59.

little higher than in 2006, that is ten years without growth. So now

:38:00.:38:03.

we're in the City, close to the Bank of England, and the trouble with the

:38:04.:38:06.

City is, as soon as the car starts to get going, it starts to fret that

:38:07.:38:13.

it's going to overheat. And then the Bank of England might slam on the

:38:14.:38:17.

brakes. The bank said interest rates won't rise while unemployment is

:38:18.:38:20.

above 7%. So how soon might it fall below that. At the budget in March

:38:21.:38:26.

the forecast that was it would take three years. Yesterday the office

:38:27.:38:29.

for bugetry responsibility said unemployment would fall much faster

:38:30.:38:34.

and then stay above 7% for a year. Calming fears of interest rate

:38:35.:38:38.

rises. The supposedly Office of Budget Responsibility has this

:38:39.:38:41.

unemployment rate which has been plummeting, well steadily, suddenly

:38:42.:38:46.

flatlining just above the threshold that the Bank of England promised

:38:47.:38:49.

they wouldn't raise interest rates until it fell below. So it may be

:38:50.:38:52.

that they have kind of nudged the forecast to avoid alarming the

:38:53.:38:55.

markets who are very nervous at the moment. Have we just jump started

:38:56.:39:03.

the old economic model, the one that clashed, the years of house rises

:39:04.:39:08.

and debt. Falling sales were blamed as pressure on the consumer. But

:39:09.:39:14.

consumer spending is lovely jubbly, it grew at its fastest pace in three

:39:15.:39:19.

years in the last quarter and so did the economy, consumer spending is

:39:20.:39:24.

driving it. If real incomes are not growing and consumer spending is,

:39:25.:39:28.

how do you square that? There is one answer, debt. We would like to

:39:29.:39:32.

replace our debt-fuelled economy with a new model, but households

:39:33.:39:37.

have a record of ?1. 4 trillion. Business investment is barely

:39:38.:39:41.

rising, exports are down and five more years of austerity. No suped up

:39:42.:39:49.

engine yet, but a very nice paint job.

:39:50.:39:53.

I'm joined now by Phil Collins from the Times, and Janan Ganesh from the

:39:54.:39:56.

Financial Times. The Conservatives first, the economy growing,

:39:57.:40:00.

benefits' bills down, essentially stick with the Conservatives and get

:40:01.:40:04.

the job done? Yeah, and if there is another 2. 5% of growth next year

:40:05.:40:09.

and inflation comes down a bit, that argument looks pretty strong in the

:40:10.:40:12.

months leading up to the election. I don't think that growth is their

:40:13.:40:15.

winning issue, I think their winning issue is the deficit. As long as the

:40:16.:40:19.

central subject of British politics is the deficit, Labour have a

:40:20.:40:23.

credibility problem, and George Osborne's job this week was to

:40:24.:40:26.

restore that issue to the centre of politics. The fact that the public

:40:27.:40:31.

doesn't really care that the deficit 2010, you know, ?60 billion ?120 and

:40:32.:40:46.

then down ?9, that's OK then? I think you're right that is the

:40:47.:40:50.

central question, and if George Osborne can define it as much. What

:40:51.:40:54.

happened to Labour in the Autumn Statement, their position reminds me

:40:55.:40:59.

of the speakers question, we are on the edge of the abyss now let's walk

:41:00.:41:02.

straight forward. Labour's pitch has been this Government is ruining the

:41:03.:41:06.

economy, making it worse with austerity, of course you are a

:41:07.:41:09.

terrible hostage to fortune to good numbers. George Osborne for the

:41:10.:41:12.

first time had a few good numbers to bring to the House of Commons, and

:41:13.:41:16.

Ed Balls was in a terrible position. He was marooned with nothing to say.

:41:17.:41:22.

He had a good position but the IFS blew it out of the water and said

:41:23.:41:29.

Labour on the basis of whatever it was ?1,400 worse off was the correct

:41:30.:41:31.

figure. But it doesn't have any traction? No, but what matters is

:41:32.:41:36.

the trend. If the economy generally and people's personal circumstances

:41:37.:41:39.

are even marginally improving in the last six months of the parliament,

:41:40.:41:43.

I'm not sure they will remember what happened four years earlier. I think

:41:44.:41:50.

the last six-to-nine months are disproportionately important in

:41:51.:41:53.

parliament. He just wants to tell us what it will be like in 2015? We

:41:54.:41:58.

would like him and Phil wrote a good column saying he should think ahead

:41:59.:42:01.

to infrastructure and investment in the future. Really his political

:42:02.:42:05.

incentive is to get it right over the next 18 months. For a sustained

:42:06.:42:09.

recovery, you want a massive increase in business investment, it

:42:10.:42:13.

is up 1%, you don't want a recovery based on personal debt and housing

:42:14.:42:17.

boom do you? That is right, the one line of attack which is credible is

:42:18.:42:21.

the fragility of the recovery, it could be built on sand. The

:42:22.:42:25.

debt-fuelled nature of it is extremely worrying. However, you

:42:26.:42:28.

have to look at the time scale here, it is not that long until the next

:42:29.:42:32.

election, and every incentive for the politician is to look at the hor

:42:33.:42:37.

rise zone two years hence. The big question for Labour is whether the

:42:38.:42:42.

two things, the economy in aggregate on the one hand and living

:42:43.:42:47.

standards. Labour is trying to separate them, a credibility problem

:42:48.:42:50.

on economic growth, but we are more trusted on the idea that we might be

:42:51.:42:54.

able to put money in your pocket and they are separating those two

:42:55.:42:57.

things. There is a lot of psychology around that, but a lot of that is

:42:58.:43:01.

dependant on whether or not you trust the central character in the

:43:02.:43:04.

Labour story. The central character in this story is not bland it is Ed

:43:05.:43:16.

Balls? -- Ed Miliband but Balls? I think he knows Ed Balls well enough

:43:17.:43:21.

not to count on that. Knows that Ed Balls will kick up a fuss and has a

:43:22.:43:25.

parliamentary following of pug listic MPs. It can be a bloody thing

:43:26.:43:30.

to go through. It is not as if he brings nothing at all to the Labour

:43:31.:43:38.

table, he is pragmatic. But enough, will people vote for Ed Balls as

:43:39.:43:42.

Chancellor? That is the proposition they will be offered, I don't think

:43:43.:43:45.

there is any likelihood at all. It is impossible to separate the dancer

:43:46.:43:49.

from the dance in politics. It is the message that is the problem. It

:43:50.:43:54.

is not just that Ed Balls had a bad day or performance, the central

:43:55.:43:57.

economic message is difficult to sell. Labour has been saying we will

:43:58.:44:01.

spend our way out of a spending crisis. The cost of living issue is

:44:02.:44:06.

losing traction? It matters to people and Labour are more trusted

:44:07.:44:10.

than the Conservatives. The big question is two things, whether the

:44:11.:44:14.

economy and aggregate comes back into line with living standards and

:44:15.:44:17.

second whether Labour can really possibly define an election on that

:44:18.:44:21.

question when their credibility on the economy is so poor. I think they

:44:22.:44:25.

can get awhich with saying that the cost of living is as important as

:44:26.:44:30.

the macro economy, they can't get away with saying nothing on the

:44:31.:44:33.

macro economy. Finally a very personal memory of Nelson Mandela,

:44:34.:44:37.

the South African author, Nadine Gordimer knew him as a young man,

:44:38.:44:41.

she herself was a member of the ANC and through her novels gave voice to

:44:42.:44:46.

the moral and racial struggle against apartheid in her country.

:44:47.:44:50.

Literature for which she won a Nobel Prize. Five years younger than

:44:51.:44:54.

Mandela, a constant friend throughout his life. We filmed her

:44:55.:44:58.

at her home in Johannesburg as she recognise collected the man she

:44:59.:45:03.

knew. My first memories were at a distance, seeing him, his

:45:04.:45:08.

photographs in the papers. And a friend of the distinguished of the

:45:09.:45:13.

advocate, and when the treason trial came on of Mandela he said do you

:45:14.:45:21.

want to come along to listen, and I did. So I went and I just couldn't

:45:22.:45:27.

keep away. So George very resourceful he has his brief case

:45:28.:45:31.

with all his legal papers in it, he said you take this and you are my

:45:32.:45:38.

assistant and secretary, when the time came for to have a lunch break

:45:39.:45:43.

you know in these courts, George went down to talk to his, the people

:45:44.:45:48.

that he's representing that is Nelson and some others, and I went

:45:49.:45:53.

with him owe diently carrying the papers he had. Then I met --

:45:54.:45:59.

obediently carrying the papers he was carrying, then I met Mandela in

:46:00.:46:03.

the trial cells. After that I continued to attend the trials,

:46:04.:46:08.

especially the final one which was the treason trial. And when he was

:46:09.:46:14.

sentenced to life imprisonment, I was there and heard it. With some

:46:15.:46:20.

unbelieve, I couldn't believe this was really happening. So that was

:46:21.:46:24.

the beginning of it. Then of course he went to the island. While he was

:46:25.:46:29.

on the island it so happened that I wrote a novel called There Goes The

:46:30.:46:36.

Daughter. And the prisoners on Robben Island were not allowed to

:46:37.:46:41.

have books sent to them. Apparently there was a bit of smuggling books

:46:42.:46:48.

and forth going, one of them was smuggled in was my book. Nelson read

:46:49.:46:53.

it and apparently he thought well of it, and he wrote me a letter. Which

:46:54.:46:59.

was smuggled OutRage of the prison as my book was smuggled in. And

:47:00.:47:07.

something of course that I treasure. He was a whole person, most of us

:47:08.:47:14.

have great gaps in our nature and awareness of each other but he

:47:15.:47:22.

indeed was a whole person. He had no prejudice, he had no anger. As every

:47:23.:47:27.

black person has every right to against the fact that of the years

:47:28.:47:33.

of colonialism that built up to apartheid. He was not a gloomy man

:47:34.:47:38.

at all, no matter how difficult things were. He had great and a

:47:39.:47:45.

strange mixture of courage and confidence. As if the confidence fed

:47:46.:47:50.

the courage. He just knew that the world in South Africa could not

:47:51.:47:59.

carry on like this. I think that the decision to give up the presidency,

:48:00.:48:05.

was it a bit premature, considering that we have never replaced him, we

:48:06.:48:10.

have never been able to so far replace him with anybody near his

:48:11.:48:15.

extraordinary personality, his intellect and courage. In the end

:48:16.:48:24.

there was something in him that really overcame everything. And

:48:25.:48:30.

surely some of that must remain. This may be just a personal idea,

:48:31.:48:35.

but I think many people would have it that he will never be dead for

:48:36.:48:40.

us. But I think that he cannot be forgotten. He will never be out of

:48:41.:48:46.

date. Because what he stood for is timeless. That is almost all for

:48:47.:48:58.

tonight, but there was more sad news today with the death of a

:48:59.:49:04.

much-admired figure and one of the giants of jazz Stan Tracey, he was

:49:05.:49:12.

honoured last year at the Ivor novella awards. We will live you

:49:13.:49:20.

with his rendition of I Let A Song Go Out Of My Heart.

:49:21.:49:25.