16/12/2013 Newsnight


16/12/2013

With Jeremy Paxman. Mission accomplished in Afghanistan, right to die, drug courts, the battle for the Arctic and modern slavery.


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Transcript


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The Prime Minister says Britain has accomplished its mission in

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Afghanistan. It is one thing to step on to Afghan soil and declare the

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future rosy, but what was the mission and the cost.

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Also tonight this man wants a doctor to be able to kill him, he tells us

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why. Matthew Perry, Chandler from Friends

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is here to argue the case for specialist drug courts.

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It seems a whole lot of nothing, so why has Russia objected so

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vehemently to Canada's claim to own the North Pole.

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Do you remember this area at all? What is it like to be a modern

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slave. Start typically at 4.00 in the morning and work constantly

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throughout the day, you can't ask for a cup of tea or anything to eat

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or anything. The Prime Minister's official

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spokesman spent part of today trying to extract words from the Prime

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Minister's supposed mouth. The two words were "mission" and

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"accomplished". Words which should never be run together since they

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appeared on the superstructure of an aircraft carrier when when George W

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Bush was boasting about the Iraq War. A reporter asked David Cameron

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if he thought the same about Afghanistan? The Prime Minister was

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on a pre-Christmas visit to troops in Helmand Province. Had they

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accomplished their mission, he was asked? I'm proud we made that

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promise and department that promise. I think our troops can leave with

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their heads held high over a job very well done. But which mission?

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It kept changing and that was part of the problem. Early on British

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Special Forces helped topple the Taliban and hunt Al-Qaeda. Then at

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the Bonn conference the UK volunteered to lead the Afghan

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counter narcotics effort. In 2001 the US Secretary of State awarded

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the Taliban $40 million by way of reward for eradicating opium in

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Afghanistan. So let's cut forward 12 years to now, where Afghanistan

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produces more than half of the world's heroin-grade opium, and

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Helmand produces half of Afghanistan's opium for export. It

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was only five years in, in 2006 that things got really difficult for

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British troops. When ministers packed them off to the south on what

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was described as a reconstruction mission. We would be perfectly happy

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to leave in three years time, without firing one shot. Because our

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mission is to protect the reconstruction. The Taliban were

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resurgent in Helmand and Kandahar provinces and the arrival of western

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troops touched off huge battles. It took four years, hundreds of lives

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and billions of pounds to get on top of it, just about. Our men have

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fought well and professionally, they have done their best, but they

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weren't able to answer the questions that aren't essentially answerable

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by military means, which is creating or establishing and sustaining a

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state, or a country that's able to sustain itself. There is no question

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we failed to do that. The final phase of Britain's war, the last

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couple of years, has focussed on preparing the Afghans for NATO's

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withdrawal. Tens of billions have been invested in forces that are

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still lacking in many respects. But there is a national mood of wanting

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to take responsibility and see the back of NATO, and that echoed by the

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President. On the security front the entire NATO exercise was one that

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caused Afghanistan a lot of suffering. And a lot of loss of

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life. And no gains, because the country is not secure. I'm not happy

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to say well there is partial security, that is not what we are

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seeking. What we wanted was absolute security and a clear-curt war

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against terrorism. So what's Britain's scorecard at the end of

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it? On the initial phase eliminating Al-Qaeda's bases, positive, on the

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counter narcotics mission that followed, that was a disaster. As

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for the insurgency in the south, at least in part caused by NATO's

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arrival, they just about got on top of it in the end. The final phase,

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the withdrawal, leaving behind capable Afghan security forces, well

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the jury still has to be out on that one, although one can be cautiously

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optimistic it will turn out better than Britain's withdrawal in 1841

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from which there was a single survivor.

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We're joined now to discuss whether the mission has really been

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accomplished in Afghanistan by my guests. Both in the studio and in

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Edinburgh, where the former British ambassador to Afghanistan is there.

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Is it mission accomplished? It is hard to say, I think the mission

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that was given by the Prime Minister is there is a basic level of

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security, and also that Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for

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Al-Qaeda. I think that's a very UK-centric mission. For 30 million

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Afghans the mission is a different thing and by far not accomplished.

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It is a very partial analysis this "mission accomplished" line? It is

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an unfortunate phrase, I think Mark Urban's report, the scorecard, I

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wouldn't dispute that at all, it is a mixed picture. The initial reason

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for going in was to overthrow the Taliban and to remove a safe haven

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for Al-Qaeda. Later on the mission got more and more complicated and

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almost impossible to achieve by military means. I think I would

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agree that the counter narcotics mission has not achieved very much,

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indeed I would suggest that it is impossible to deal with the supply

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side of a narcotics. You probably would have to deal with the demand

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side, that is a whole different debate. I think it is a mixed

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picture. As far as the military are concerned, they have done what they

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could do. And I think the Prime Minister is right to talk about

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being able to leave with their heads held high. The fact that Afghanistan

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isn't a peaceful democracy is not the military's fault. How does it

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seem from one of the other criteria, one of the other things they were

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supposed to do whilst they were there is assist in the creation of a

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civil society, particularly as regards the rights of women and the

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like. How does it seem from that point of view? Well, not like good

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news at all. You notice that the Prime Minister hasn't talked about

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that today. And we haven't heard people talking about it much at all,

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even though in 2001 we heard a lot from Tony and Cherie Blair about how

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it was the oppression of women was one of the reasons that action was

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needed to urgently in Afghanistan. What we have seen over the last

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seven or eight months is a quite serious rollback of women's rights

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by the Afghan Government. You mentioned earlier that it was a very

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anglo-centric, Britishcentric view of what was going on in Afghanistan,

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that didn't necessarily seem like that to Afghans, in what respect?

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Our country is still one of the poorest in the world. It is,

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unfortunately, the most corrupt in the world. The humanitarian needs

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and development needs are very high still. And it is a bedrock for

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extremism. But you have got rid of the Taliban Government? We have,

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yes. And we are proud also that we have 350,000 security forces that

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now undertake the absolute majority of security operations in

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Afghanistan. That is a good, positive thing. But the reasons of

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optimisim are not, do not overshadow the reasons for pessimism

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unfortunately. Pessimistic looking forward do you mean? Yes, the

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Taliban have vowed to disrupt next year's elections, although there is

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going to be a robust response from the Afghanistan security force, but

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it seems that they still have the ability to commit suicide attacks,

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they can organise security threats in all major Afghanistan cities,

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they also have been able to kill aid workers and Government public

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servants. At that level it hasn't been a great success, has it? It is

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down to the Afghans now, what the international forces have done they

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can't do any more I think the arguments about staying on I would

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disagree with. I think it is for the Afghans to take this forward. They

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have got a security force, the British forces have contributed to

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building up that force, as long as we continue to support that force

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with aid and development assistance, it is really now for the Afghans to

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take this forward. There is not much more we can do. And education is

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much better isn't it? Yes and no. About half of Afghan girls are still

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not going to school. I guess the real concern is about weather we're

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at a point now which is the beginning of a longer trajectory of

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progress or whether things are actually going to turn around and go

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back. If you look, there are lots of different indicator, not just about

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women's rights in which things are going the wrong direction. If this

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isn't a permanent change in Afghan society it has been an awful lot of

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blood and treasure spent to no effect? It can be a permanent change

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but that requires a long-term commitment by the international

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community. Not just to funding schools and clinics and hospital,

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but also to put political pressure on the Afghan Government to respect

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human rights. We are already seeing and hearing noises about deals with

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the Taliban of whom there are still many thousands left in Afghanistan

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aren't there? Yes. So what's the way forward? The way forward is for the

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international community, which has invested so much in Afghanistan to

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remain involved and supportive of human rights and women's rights and

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to take a firm stand, while an agreement with the Taliban might be

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desirable, it can't be at a cost to human rights. How does it seem to

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you as an Afghan? I believe that Sir William was quite right that the

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Afghans will take responsibility and they should. But what is important

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is that the changes that have happened for the military, for the

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civil society, that is sustained for a longer period of time, so that

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they are not irreversible. Sir William? I agree with that, the big

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lesson from history and the Russian experience in Afghanistan is the

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international community have to stay engaged financially. We have to

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commit to maintaining the support and with security forces. The

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Afghans won't be able do it on their own but they need to take

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responsibility. I have to say to Hearth, 2. 5 million girls in school

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is progress. The fact that so many young Afghans are going to school

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should in my view make a big difference to society. A thank you

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very much. For 50 years it has been impossible to commit suicide. You

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can kill yourself but a law passed in 1961 decreed it was no longer a

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criminal offence to do so. As a safeguard that law made it a

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criminal offence to help someone to take their own life. Today nine of

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the country's most senior judges began considering whether it is time

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to change that and make it possible in some circumstances. The

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newly-televised Supreme Court began hearing evidence today in the right

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to die case. Currently in England it is an offence to encourage or assist

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a suicide. My Lords, my lady, this appeal marks what the appleant's

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hope is the final stage of their attempts to obtain a legal remedy to

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escape the extraordinary, and we submit, cruel consequences for them

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of what is a generally sound law prohibiting assisted suicide in

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England and Wales. Tony Nickinson wanted that to change. He had locked

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in syndrome after suffering a massive stroke in 2005. He died last

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summer, a week after he lost a High Court case to end his life with the

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help of a doctor. His widow Jane won the right to continue the challenge

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and is joined by Paul Lamb, who is paralysed in a road traffic accident

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in 1990. Paul suffers from chronic pain and is immobile save for the

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limited use of his right hand. He wants to be able to get a doctor end

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his life at a time of his choosing. His case goes beyond that of

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assisted suicide as he would need a doctor actually to kill him. Which

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would amount to murder. Many people feel the current law protects

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vulnerable people. Many vulnerable elderly and disabled people will

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feel pressure, whether that's real or imagined to end their lives, so

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as not to be a financial or emotional burden upon others. And

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some disability rights campaigners believe the focus should be

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different. Why do people want to die? What can we do to improve the

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quality of life of individuals such as Paul Lamb so that he has a change

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of mind. The nine judges of the Supreme Court must now decide

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whether the current prohibition on assisted suicide is incompatible

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with the right for respect for private and family life. Paul Lamb

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is with us now. A lot of people would find this desire of yours

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incomprehensible, can you explain why you want to change the law?

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Peace of mind. If the law changes in favour of what we are asking, it

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means while I'm on this planet, I will have a lot more peace of mind.

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I don't have to keep thinking of ways to end my life if and when I

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can't take no more. If you say you can't take any more, that you make a

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decision that life isn't worth living? Yes. How will you know when

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that time is? When I can't physically and mentally take no

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more. There is a lot of things that could still go wrong with me, and...

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And I just want to be able to call upon the help of a doctor when I

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know I can't do any more. Life is worth living now? If this was in the

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background, like almost like a lot of money in the bank, if I could

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bank this that I knew that there is a safeguard when I need it, I will

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probably have a lot better quality of life now. Why is knowing that a

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doctor could help you end your life, if you came to that judgment, why is

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that better than the care you might receive in a good hospice? It is not

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enough. I have been 23 years now and the pain I get at times is

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unbearable. There is a lot more things that can go wrong with me.

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I'm constantly just thinking of ways I can end my life if and when the

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time comes. And to be honest running my chair into a canal, jumping on a

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rail line, jumping over a cliff, scares me. It scares me a lot. I

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just want the ability to die at home with family and friend around me.

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With dignity. I suppose there may come a point when you can't work

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your wheelchair? Well my hand, that's the one that I have got that

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I can use, I throw it over on to the joy stick and it gives me

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independence. But I have seen people over the years that have usage of

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and lose it, and I have seen them suffering. And that scares me. Do

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you understand why many people worry about the message it would send to

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many disabled people? Yes, but in the country we live in now, I mean

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there will be certain ways where the safeguard people like that, surely.

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It is the absolute opposite of what every doctor has been trained to do,

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isn't it? Yes, but in the same breath as medicines are advancing

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all the time, and we're enhancing the lives of people, it is like

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enhancing the pain that I'm going through, adding more years to what

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is a sentence already. You have arrived at this conclusion through a

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series of thoughts of your own, but supposing you were a person who had

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come to the conclusion that they were a burden on others. That isn't

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you? I don't feel that. I'm not suggesting you have come to that

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view. But supposing you were such a person and they saw that it was

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possible for someone to help you leave this life. Wouldn't that send

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a very worrying message? Do you see what I'm getting at. You have made a

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judgment in your mind that it is about how you want to live your life

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and how you want to end your life. But if you were a pers who was a

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little bit vulnerable, wound you wore -- wouldn't you worry about the

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sort of message that might send? They should be able to put

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safeguards in makes I think safeguards would be put in place to

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help them type of people. Have you had any, any indication of how this

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is likely to work out? In what way? Well, do you get a sense that public

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opinion is on your side? It is. I mean I have heard that many times

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that 70-80% of public opinion is on my side. And what about the ethical

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considerations about the taking of life, do they not bother you? The

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ethical? Yeah, the idea that suicide was a crime because originally it

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was considered to be a sin. It was also supposed to be the coward's way

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out. I have never seen that. No, you are making a very brave call here, a

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very brave call here, which most of us perhaps would shy away from. But

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when you go through what I have gone through over the years, I don't shy

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away from it. I personally would like to live more years, but the way

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it is at the moment I'm constantly thinking, I just want peace of mind.

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I want the doctors there to help and to help me it would be for them to

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give me my own choice. Independence. Thank you. Thank you very much, good

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luck. I'm sorry. You're fine, thank you. It is one of the most

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instrictable policy problems of our times, how do we best deal with the

:20:25.:20:28.

consequences of drug addiction and break the cycle of offending. Today

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the Justice Secretary, Chris Grayling, met with the delegation

:20:33.:20:36.

from the United States, amongst them a former addict and sitcom star, the

:20:37.:20:41.

actor, Matthew Perry. Who think drug courts are the answer. We will ask

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in a moment whether they are. First, what are they? Drug courts aren't

:20:45.:20:55.

easy. Drug courts could save someone you love. Drug courts are the

:20:56.:21:00.

solution. There's no shortage of famous recovering addicts to

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eadvantagise about America's drug courts. They have reinvented the

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relationship between judge and offender. Stay clean and the

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offender gets lots of praise and stays out of prison. It is rather

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less touchy feely in Glasgow, their drug court opened more than ten

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years ago. Anything you want to say to me. You have another six months

:21:26.:21:31.

to go, this is where we get into the home strait now and you finish off.

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Yes. Well done to you, I'm delighted for you, well done. The key

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difference between a drug court and an ordinary court is the

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relationship that builds up between the judge and the offender. The

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judge is meant to act like a mentor, encouraging and supporting the

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offender to stay off the drugs. Offender is meant to confide in the

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drug and tell them how the treatment programme is going. It all sounds a

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bit happy-clappy, but the judge does have sanctions at their disposal,

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they can send the offender to prison if they drop out of the treatment

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programme. As an analogy, a football manager an analogy, where some

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players need to be told in frank terms and some players need an arm

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put round them. I have not put an arm round any of them yet. Maybe

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that is the sort of thing they do in America, that wouldn't work in

:22:25.:22:29.

Glasgow. Martin boil was aticketed to drugs for 20 years and imprisoned

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25 times. He says he couldn't have turned his -- addicted to drugs for

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20 years and imprisoned 25-times, he said he couldn't have turned his

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life around without the judge in his drug court. She didn't treat me like

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a drug addict, she treated me like a person. I wouldn't be alive. So she

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saved your life? Aye. Definitely aye. What would you say to her now

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if you saw her? Sorry about this... I will be ecertainly grateful for

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her -- eternally grateful for her, I hope she does, she was the only

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person in my whole life that has really given me a chance. How

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effective are drug courts. A Ministry of Justice study found that

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offenders were 30% more likely to complete a drug treatment order if

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they had regular contact with a judge.

:23:32.:23:55.

You sat through the drug court process, describe what it looks

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like? It is really a place of celebration. Matthew Perry has been

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lobbying the Justice Secretary to put more money into drug courts. It

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is not clear yet whether he will get his wish. We have 32 Magistrates'

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Courts in this country that offer the drug court model, is it time to

:24:12.:24:15.

expand that? What matters in the justice system is what works. We

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have clearly got some evidence in the UK, but interesting evidence

:24:19.:24:22.

from the states as well. That there is a potential here to have an

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impact on reoffending levels. Central to what I want to achieve in

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my role is bring down reoffending rates. I'm open to all ideas that

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can help achieve that. You are struggling right now but I'm going

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to persevere with you and encourage you. Drug courts are intensively

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resourced, along with the judge they involve probation officers, health

:24:43.:24:46.

and social workers. But their supporters argue they save money in

:24:47.:24:49.

the long run, because fewer offenders end up in prison.

:24:50.:24:55.

With us now is the actor and former addict, Matthew Perry, the

:24:56.:25:00.

journalist Peter Hitchins and Baroness Meacher who chairs the

:25:01.:25:04.

All-Party Parliamentary Group on Drug policy reform. Why do you have

:25:05.:25:11.

such faith in drug courts? That is easy to answer, I see they work. I

:25:12.:25:14.

have been involved with them for about four years. Little over four

:25:15.:25:20.

years, and people that go through drug court have a 55% less chance of

:25:21.:25:28.

seeing handcuffs ever again. How do you know that these people wouldn't

:25:29.:25:33.

have quit their drug habit any way? Well, that gets into a bigger

:25:34.:25:36.

question of whether these people are addicts or not. You know what I

:25:37.:25:40.

mean. If they are drug addicts and alcoholics then they are going to

:25:41.:25:43.

keep going until something stops them. And drug court is a wonderful

:25:44.:25:51.

way to interrupt that process. And it is a way to not throw these

:25:52.:25:59.

people away. It takes first-time drug offenders and instead of

:26:00.:26:02.

throwing them into prison it puts them into an 18-month to two-year

:26:03.:26:07.

programme. What is not to like about it? Well the evidence in favour of

:26:08.:26:11.

them is pretty scanty, there haven't been many serious studies, I think

:26:12.:26:20.

one in Arizona and battle Mir -- Baltimore and somewhere else in the

:26:21.:26:23.

United States, and they say it doesn't make too much difference.

:26:24.:26:25.

The selection of the people going through them has some impact on it.

:26:26.:26:29.

The real problem for me is this, what you are saying, effectively you

:26:30.:26:33.

are seeking to fail in the criminal justice system. The whole point of

:26:34.:26:37.

the criminal justice system, and we forget this all the time is to deter

:26:38.:26:41.

people from committing crimes. Once you have arrested someone and they

:26:42.:26:45.

appear in court it has already failed. To soften the court system

:26:46.:26:50.

to make it into a jolly where the judge wears tracksuit bottoms. What

:26:51.:26:56.

do you mean a jolly? You should see some things in the west London drug

:26:57.:27:00.

court, where the judge wore tracksuit bottoms and was maty with

:27:01.:27:05.

the defendants. This gives the impression of not the majesty of

:27:06.:27:09.

justice but somebody trying to be nice. That is not the way to deal

:27:10.:27:13.

with it. There is nothing wrong with being nice? If you want to stop

:27:14.:27:17.

people becoming drug user, the best thing to do is make sure they never

:27:18.:27:22.

start in the first place. A deterrent criminal justice system

:27:23.:27:24.

would actually do that. But they have already started? They have

:27:25.:27:27.

started because the criminal justice system is so feeble. Isn't the real

:27:28.:27:31.

problem... It is feeble from the start. Baroness Meacher have a

:27:32.:27:36.

contribution here? Isn't the problem that by the time you get to a drug

:27:37.:27:39.

court you have already assumed that drug addiction is a crime. Actually

:27:40.:27:43.

drug addiction is a health problem. The first thing you have to do is

:27:44.:27:48.

some preventive work, prevent people becoming drug addicts, and that we

:27:49.:27:51.

now know, there is good evidence that you can do that. Portugal have

:27:52.:27:56.

switched vast sums of moneys from prisons to treatment. They have

:27:57.:28:00.

vastly more people in treatment than we do here. They have a much better

:28:01.:28:06.

record than Spain and Italy. You can deal with this as health problem.

:28:07.:28:10.

Instead of waiting for people to become really severe addict, get

:28:11.:28:14.

into the criminal justice system and I agree drug courts can be a little

:28:15.:28:19.

more helpful. I'm not understanding your point, your point is to stop

:28:20.:28:25.

drugs and alcoholism by just people never starting. You two believe in

:28:26.:28:31.

this fantasy of addiction. A complete fantasy where people lose

:28:32.:28:35.

all power over themselves and become victims of this terrible frightening

:28:36.:28:40.

disease. Right now... This is what you believe, this terrible

:28:41.:28:43.

frightening disease after which they cannot stop taking drugs. If you

:28:44.:28:46.

really believe that you would presumably think the best thing is

:28:47.:28:50.

they never, ever came in contact with those drugs, wouldn't it

:28:51.:28:53.

therefore be wise to deter them from doing so by a stern and effective

:28:54.:28:58.

criminal justice system which persuaded them it was unwise to take

:28:59.:29:04.

them in the first place. When can I speak, I'm dying to speak. We didn't

:29:05.:29:10.

come here to be quiet. Neither did I, I didn't come here to listen to

:29:11.:29:13.

ludicrous things like that either. You tell me why it is ludicrous if

:29:14.:29:18.

you are so clever. I will, the American medical association

:29:19.:29:22.

diagnosed it a disease in 1976 so you are saying that's incorrect. Are

:29:23.:29:29.

you saying it is incorrect? The medical profession is doing lots of

:29:30.:29:34.

things, they said that the homosexuality was a disease and they

:29:35.:29:38.

were wrong. The key things is we have had this policy for 50 years.

:29:39.:29:44.

My life is the evidence. We have had 50 years of treating addiction as a

:29:45.:29:48.

crime, we know it doesn't work anywhere in the world. Increasingly

:29:49.:29:54.

in the US, Uruguay things are changing. Finish your point. I'm a

:29:55.:29:59.

drug addict, I'm a person that if I have a drink I can't stop. And so it

:30:00.:30:04.

would be following your ideology that I'm choosing to do that. That

:30:05.:30:09.

I'm choosing that. That is exactly my belief, you do choose. You have a

:30:10.:30:14.

choice. It is a belief you wrote in your book. You have a choice over

:30:15.:30:19.

whether you drink or not. But your book is the only book in modern

:30:20.:30:22.

times that has this ideology, doesn't that teach you something.

:30:23.:30:27.

Quite often unfashionable ideas are unfashionable because they are

:30:28.:30:31.

unpopular with influential people. Doesn't necessarily bother me. You

:30:32.:30:34.

tell me what the objective diagnosis is to establish the existence tense

:30:35.:30:39.

of addiction in the human body. It is an allergy of the body... Allergy

:30:40.:30:49.

to what. We are supposed to be grown men and you are making faces like

:30:50.:30:52.

the guy who is wearing the pants that you were talking about earlier.

:30:53.:30:55.

I'm expecting you to come out in the pants in a minute. It is an

:30:56.:31:00.

inception of your mind and allergy of your body. This is what happens

:31:01.:31:03.

to me, I start thinking about alcohol, I can't stop, I can't stop

:31:04.:31:07.

thinking about it. What is the objective physical proof of this

:31:08.:31:11.

inability to stop. There is considerable proof this is partly a

:31:12.:31:15.

genetic problem. Your argument is it is will power? Of course it is will

:31:16.:31:19.

power. People constantly stop both drinking and taking drugs. You are

:31:20.:31:25.

just a person who is talking who is wrong. It is an effort on your part

:31:26.:31:31.

not to do it now? I'm in control of the first drink, and so I do all

:31:32.:31:35.

these things to protect myself from not having the first drink. But once

:31:36.:31:40.

I have that drink the allergy of the body kicks in, this is all

:31:41.:31:45.

documented alcoholism proof. Then I can't stop after that. Our problem

:31:46.:31:51.

with Peter. I'm allergic to aspirin. It doesn't mean I don't have to

:31:52.:31:55.

drink. You have to look at the evidence. What is this allergy. It

:31:56.:32:02.

is an allergy of your body. Not that your aspirin point wasn't genius,

:32:03.:32:07.

but, you don't know what you are talking about. That's right, you

:32:08.:32:10.

have to look at countries that have done it differently and they have

:32:11.:32:14.

succeeded. I have asked you to come up with an objective. I did, myself.

:32:15.:32:20.

We're not getting anywhere. Yourself is the reverse of objective. Myself

:32:21.:32:25.

and ten million other alcoholics and addicts across America and the world

:32:26.:32:29.

are having these problems. People have problems with drugs and drink,

:32:30.:32:33.

people like taking them and they don't want to stop taking them, it

:32:34.:32:36.

doesn't mean they have a disease that needs to be treated. So the

:32:37.:32:40.

American medical association is wrong. If they say it is a disease,

:32:41.:32:44.

yes of course they are wrong. All these doctors are wrong, but you are

:32:45.:32:48.

right? But you are right. There is an immense fashion at the moment for

:32:49.:32:53.

simply, for dismissing the ability of people to take control over their

:32:54.:32:58.

own lives and to make excuses for them. We have far from 50 years been

:32:59.:33:03.

treating alleged addiction as a crime, we have been treating it as a

:33:04.:33:06.

disease and the result is we have many, many more drug users than we

:33:07.:33:12.

did when this policy started. The medical evidence shows that

:33:13.:33:17.

addiction is in part a genetic problem and in part an environmental

:33:18.:33:20.

one. If you have parents with an addiction and if you then have

:33:21.:33:24.

abuse, sexual abuse, child abuse, brought up in a children's home,

:33:25.:33:28.

lots of foster problem, you have this genetic problem any way, the

:33:29.:33:31.

evidence is very, very clear you have a medical health problem. And

:33:32.:33:35.

countries that have addressed this and dealt with it, as a health

:33:36.:33:38.

problem, are doing a lot better than we are. We can save money, we can

:33:39.:33:44.

reduce crime, we can get people better and stop having them on

:33:45.:33:47.

benefits, we can have them paying taxes. If we want to save money and

:33:48.:33:53.

help people we know how to do it. Since we have followed your policies

:33:54.:33:56.

more and more people have been taking dangerous and damaging drugs.

:33:57.:34:02.

Since we have ceased treating drug possession as a crime and have more

:34:03.:34:09.

or less stopped arresting or prosecuting people for possessing

:34:10.:34:12.

drugs, since we have classified drug takers as people with a medical

:34:13.:34:16.

problem we have had more and more. Let me ask you this. Can I possibly

:34:17.:34:22.

be right. Can I give him one quick put down. If you want to. You are

:34:23.:34:26.

making a point as ludicrous as saying Peter Pan is real. You keep

:34:27.:34:31.

saying that, but you can't come up with an objective definition. I was

:34:32.:34:35.

going to make an argument useful to you. Isn't the point about drug

:34:36.:34:40.

courts that people have to be compelled to get clean thank in

:34:41.:34:44.

itself tells you something? They don't have to be compelled. You have

:34:45.:34:49.

to have the willingness to change. Drug courts don't do much better

:34:50.:34:54.

than voluntary treatment, drug courts do fairly much the same. It

:34:55.:34:57.

is not as crazy as what he's saying but it is not true either. There is

:34:58.:35:02.

research evidence to show that you do as well, roughly, with voluntary

:35:03.:35:05.

treatment as you do in drug courts, but actually. But they have to want

:35:06.:35:10.

to do it? They have and to be well enough to do it. That is an act of

:35:11.:35:15.

will? But they have got to reached a stage, have sufficient support,

:35:16.:35:18.

sufficient treatment, this is very complicated it is not just a simple

:35:19.:35:22.

thing. They have to be cleaned up and sober. It is much more

:35:23.:35:26.

complicated. They have to be sober to make that decision or

:35:27.:35:32.

intoxicated. How do people ever cease to be addicts if this is true.

:35:33.:35:39.

Yes, Santa. This is a serious subject and you treat it with

:35:40.:35:45.

immense levity. You are are one the treating with with levity. You so

:35:46.:35:50.

smugly and loftly this policy that you advocate which has led to

:35:51.:35:54.

disaster in western countries for decades. That is simply not true.

:35:55.:35:58.

How has the policy led to disSAS templet Because it has led to a

:35:59.:36:03.

laxness in the law which has meant many, many more people taking the

:36:04.:36:07.

terrible risk of taking the drugs which you say are addictive and we

:36:08.:36:14.

all agree are damage. That is simply not true, we know it and the

:36:15.:36:18.

research shows it. All you need to do is some reading of the evidence.

:36:19.:36:22.

Read something other than your book. You can't argue seriously. It

:36:23.:36:26.

doesn't matter much to the polar bears but it seems to matter a great

:36:27.:36:30.

deal to human politicians. Who owns the Arctic, who cares? What once

:36:31.:36:35.

would be the answer. And an issue up there with what passport Father

:36:36.:36:39.

Christmas carries. No longer, it matters a lot to the man with the

:36:40.:36:47.

most photographed torso in politics, Mr Putin, and Stephen Harper, the

:36:48.:36:50.

Prime Minister of Canada, who claims the North Pole is Canadian. It

:36:51.:36:54.

dispute is less about what is obvious at the pole than what lies

:36:55.:37:00.

beneath. It has gone down as well as a vegetarian alternative amongst sea

:37:01.:37:05.

loins and the Danes. Who believe it is their's any way. The Arctic ice

:37:06.:37:09.

may be in retreat, but it is what lies beneath that has set Canada,

:37:10.:37:14.

Russia, the US, Norway and Denmark at odds. No country has quite

:37:15.:37:19.

managed to prove sovereignty over the North Pole. Then hey presto last

:37:20.:37:23.

week the Canadian Foreign Minister announced that the North Pole is

:37:24.:37:27.

Canadian. Of course. Russia immediately responded by saying no

:37:28.:37:31.

it is not. According to a UN convention, states may claim

:37:32.:37:36.

territory to a limit of 200 nautical miles from their continental shelf.

:37:37.:37:43.

The current dispute centres round an underwater mountain range. Canada

:37:44.:37:47.

claims it is part of its own continental shelf, Russia claims

:37:48.:37:51.

much the same. A vast array of scientific equipment is being

:37:52.:37:54.

deployed as each tries to prove the other wrong. The obvious motivation

:37:55.:37:58.

for the dispute is natural resources. According to the US

:37:59.:38:02.

Geological Survey the Arctic accounts for about 13% of the

:38:03.:38:07.

world's undiscovered oil, 30% of the undiscovered natural gas, and 20% of

:38:08.:38:11.

the undiscovered natural gas liquids in the world. But sceptics warn the

:38:12.:38:19.

Arctic is an in ospitable place to extract anything at all. So the

:38:20.:38:22.

expected natural resources bonanza may be very difficult to come by. In

:38:23.:38:27.

cases like this, and there are no other cases precisely like this, of

:38:28.:38:33.

course, the wheels that the United Nations grind are extremely slow. At

:38:34.:38:38.

this level at least there is no thaw in sight.

:38:39.:38:42.

I'm joined by Skype from his home in Ottawa by the chief executive of the

:38:43.:38:46.

royal Canadian geographical society. How long do you think before it will

:38:47.:38:51.

be settled one way or another? I'm not sure it will be settled in our

:38:52.:38:57.

life times. Many years maybe decades. Why the fuss now? Is the

:38:58.:39:06.

process Which? All the scientists and Governments are trying to

:39:07.:39:10.

determine whether or not they have a legitimate claim. A everyone thinks

:39:11.:39:17.

they do. Canada, Denmark and Russia have a strong claim on the pole. All

:39:18.:39:29.

of those will proceed. They have a big nerve in claiming it? The

:39:30.:39:33.

convention of the law of the sea demonstrates that if you show that

:39:34.:39:37.

your continental shelf extends beyond your shores you can make a

:39:38.:39:44.

claim up to 200 nautical miles. Certainly the extension of the I

:39:45.:39:56.

think there is a convincing claim for the Canadians. What about Father

:39:57.:40:03.

Christmas? We know he's Canadian, I don't think that point is in

:40:04.:40:10.

dispute. Thank you very much indeed! Anyone found guilty of traffics a

:40:11.:40:13.

fellow human being in this country will, if the Government manages to

:40:14.:40:18.

change the law, be sentenced to life imprisonment. The Home Secretary

:40:19.:40:22.

says that tackling modern slavery is her top priority. But how can this

:40:23.:40:26.

be, since it has been a principle of English law for hundreds of years

:40:27.:40:31.

that once a slave sets foot in this country he or she is no longer a

:40:32.:40:35.

slave. The state of slavery does not and cannot formally exist in this

:40:36.:40:40.

country, but it can and it does exist. From Brixton town houses to

:40:41.:40:47.

nail bars on the high street. Claims of forced labour, of servitude, even

:40:48.:40:51.

of slavery are getting more attention from politicians, more

:40:52.:40:59.

notice from the media. Two years ago police raided this

:41:00.:41:02.

quiet travellers site in Bedfordshire, in the first case of

:41:03.:41:07.

its type, four members of the same family were accused of forcing men

:41:08.:41:11.

into unpaid work. Officers were shocked by the filth and degradation

:41:12.:41:17.

they were living in. Mark once lived on the same site, a year before

:41:18.:41:21.

those raids he was picked up outside a soup kitchen and offered work

:41:22.:41:25.

laying driveways in the area. It is the very definition of slavery,

:41:26.:41:29.

people working for long hours for zero pay it is slavery. This is the

:41:30.:41:34.

first time I have before back since it happened. It is a bit weird being

:41:35.:41:38.

here. He's now turned his life around and campaigns on the issue of

:41:39.:41:42.

forced labour. There were people who had been here for a long time,

:41:43.:41:49.

ten-to-fifteen years and they never saw a penny in the whole time. They

:41:50.:41:53.

were punished for minor things. I have seen people hit with pickaxes

:41:54.:41:59.

and shovels, it is generally an oppressive and scary environment.

:42:00.:42:03.

People will ask why not walk away? It is fair enough question, I

:42:04.:42:07.

understand why people ask that. It was difficult to answer. I was never

:42:08.:42:12.

physically locked in anywhere, as far as I know nobody else who worked

:42:13.:42:15.

on the site was locked in either. You see people sometimes trying to

:42:16.:42:19.

runway, they were always brought back in a far worse state than they

:42:20.:42:24.

left. You were constantly told that there is no getting out, this is

:42:25.:42:27.

your life now. You're one of them and it is your lot to work here

:42:28.:42:32.

basically. Mark was eventually taken to Sweden to work, he managed to run

:42:33.:42:35.

away and was picked up by the local police. New figures suggest there

:42:36.:42:43.

are 10,000 people working here in those sorts of conditions. Some will

:42:44.:42:48.

be forced into manual Labour, others into prosecution or domestic

:42:49.:42:54.

servitude. Police data show most victims come fret developing coups,

:42:55.:43:01.

like Nigeria and Albania. For the Home Secretary it is something of a

:43:02.:43:03.

personal crusade, today she promised a new law on the statute books

:43:04.:43:09.

before the next election. Modern slavery does not pay. Get involved

:43:10.:43:13.

we will hunt you down, we will prosecute you, we will lock you up

:43:14.:43:17.

and your assets will be seized and confiscated. The idea is to take

:43:18.:43:20.

raft of different trafficking offences and combine them all into a

:43:21.:43:25.

single slavery law, with a maximum life sentence. Police and social

:43:26.:43:29.

workers will have a new legal duty to report victims and a new

:43:30.:43:32.

anti-slavery commissioner will act as a watchdog. The Government says

:43:33.:43:38.

it is a breakthrough. Critics say it doesn't go far enough. There is

:43:39.:43:41.

nothing in the bill that will stop victims from being criminalised as a

:43:42.:43:46.

result of crimes traffickers make them commit. There is nothing in the

:43:47.:43:50.

bill that protects victims by giving them enough time to recover. How is

:43:51.:43:54.

the Government supposed to secure the prosecutions if victims don't

:43:55.:43:57.

feel protected. On the one hand you say you want to do more about this,

:43:58.:44:01.

on the other the Government has been imposing new visa restrictions and

:44:02.:44:04.

cutting funding to organisations which are meant to be the watchdog

:44:05.:44:10.

in this area. So is there a tension between what you are saying today

:44:11.:44:13.

and what your Government is doing? It is perfectly possible for this

:44:14.:44:16.

Government to continue what we have been doing in the last few years, in

:44:17.:44:20.

terms of bringing control into our immigration system, that was

:44:21.:44:22.

necessary, we have done that. We continue to work on that. But at the

:44:23.:44:26.

same time look at this appalling crime of modern slavery and deal

:44:27.:44:30.

with it as a crime and ensure we can get and bring to justice more of the

:44:31.:44:35.

perpetrators, more of the slave drivers so we reduce the number of

:44:36.:44:39.

victims in the future. Across the road from the House of Commons in

:44:40.:44:42.

Westminster Abbey, a reminder that parliament has played a role in

:44:43.:44:47.

stamping out slavery in the past. Politicians have been queueing up to

:44:48.:44:52.

envoke the officer incompetent of William will better force, this man

:44:53.:45:02.

-- Wi -- invoke the spirit of William Wilberforce the man who

:45:03.:45:07.

defeated slavery. After People are still being flown into this country

:45:08.:45:11.

thinking they are signing up for a legitimate job. Crystal was brought

:45:12.:45:15.

here from the West Indies as a maid. She was barely paid and when she

:45:16.:45:20.

tried to get help she was punished. For me I felt violated and I felt

:45:21.:45:24.

like the authorities didn't want to hear about this. It was a taboo

:45:25.:45:29.

subject to talk about. One of the things I noticed early on is my

:45:30.:45:35.

immigration status was more important than the experience of

:45:36.:45:40.

being traffiked. Today's bill is then a first step in fighting the

:45:41.:45:44.

modern version of slavery, but before more human traffickers can be

:45:45.:45:48.

caught the police and the politicians will have to convince

:45:49.:45:52.

victims it is now safe to come forward. Tomorrow morning's front

:45:53.:45:58.

pages That's it for now, we will leave you

:45:59.:46:45.

with memories of the actor Peter oh -- Peter O' Toole, he told us many

:46:46.:46:51.

years ago he didn't want to be an actor. I always wanted to be a poet.

:46:52.:46:55.

Were you any good. Do you remember any of your couplets? I dare not

:46:56.:47:00.

tell you, later perhaps. What appealed to you about that? Writing

:47:01.:47:07.

poetry and wondering about life and wandering around in a green cape and

:47:08.:47:15.

like Mangan with a funny hat on me. And the ladies liked poets?

:47:16.:47:17.

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