18/12/2013 Newsnight


18/12/2013

Featuring the National Security Agency review; accusations against Kenyan soldiers; internet pornography filters; Bitcoin; gay footballers; Ronnie Biggs.


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Transcript


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The men appointed to decide what America's electronic eavesdroppers

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should be allowed to do says it is time to put them on a timer leash.

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But they don't recommend stopping the enormous surveillance programme.

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The national security agency and its allies, like GCHQ, have details of

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billions of phone calls and messages. Now the White House has to

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decide whether they should be allowed to keep them. We will speak

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to the journalist who exposed NSA snooping.

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Three months on from the attack on the Nairobi shopping mall and no-one

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even seems to know what became of the attackers. The brutality of the

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strike was shocking but now Newsnight has heard increasing

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suggestions of British-trained police unit is carrying out summary

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executions. The British Government is helping the ATPO in Kenya kill

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Muslims by training them and providing them with logistical

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support and giving them money. This man is only the second professional

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footballer in this country to come out about his sexuality, is it

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harder to be gay in the beautiful game. Computer says no. We see how

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the filthers meant to keep our children safe from pornography are

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also denying them access to sites which could help them. To find that

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a major ISP is blocking a really popular sex-education website is

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really, really frustrating. I feel like they should be helping rather

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than hindering us in this way. The White House wasn't going to make the

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recommendations public yet. But tonight it was forced as a result of

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a leak, funnily enough, to make public what the panel appointed by

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President Obama thinks should be done to restore faith in America's

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electronic intelligence-gathering system. Once the sheer scale of

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National Security Agency snooping had been exposed by newspapers like

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the Guardian, the pressure of opinion forced the President to look

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at issuing new rules. Apart from anything else, a couple of days ago

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federal judge ruled that the surveillance vie lated the American

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institution -- violated the American constitution. We have been reading

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the report, it is quite a big deal this, isn't it? T a big deal in the

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little sense. More than 300-pages I have had to plough through in the

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last hour-and-a-half, it is 36 recommendation, a lot of it dealing

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with the Americans. This is a touchy issue, the collection of this met at

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that data in the case of phone call, the number called, the number that

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made the call, how long it lasted, that kind of detail. The panel

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recommend that is this trove of stored phone met at that data on US

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citizen, one trillion records be junked. They also recommend

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tightening the rules on the certain court granting surveillance in the

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US. Introducing a public interest or civil liberties advocate into the

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court process to make it a more rigorous and argumentative process,

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so they don't sign off on so many parents. Also there is stuff

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clipping the wings of the NSA, something recommending that. Perhaps

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a civilian director, make sure the director is confirmed by the Senate,

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that is not the case currently to extend control on the agency.

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Finally some recommendation about spying on foreigner, things like the

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Angela Merkel phone calls we were hearing about, saying is that

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necessary, a question the President himself had asked him to consider.

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These are, as you stress, just recommendations aren't they? The

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President will have to decide whether he's going to act on them?

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They are recommendations. That said, it is a panel that includes a good

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many Washington insiders, including Richard Clarke, counter terrorism

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adviser to Republican and Democratic Presidents. We know that for example

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on this collection met at that data, following that -- met at that data

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following the ruling on Monday, it is already going against them in the

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courts, it is highly likely they will have to move on the bulk

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members metadata, but ultimately the President could rule it is against

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the national interest to gather data on a bulk of topics and they will

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continue to do so despite the regulation. What is meta-data? In

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phone call terms, it is the number you have called, for how long and

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your number, in internet terms it can be the page you looked at. What

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it doesn't include, particularly in the sense of phone calls, and we

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hear 60 million details were taken in Spain or whatever, it is what

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actually people were saying. Glenn Greenwald is the former

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Guardian columnist who helped bring the files taken by global leaker

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Edward snoweden out. This report does suggest, doesn't it that the

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NSA was in need of reform? It is one way to read it, with respect it is

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the wrong way to read it. All this report does it suggest there is a

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feeding frenzy in Washington, aided by promiscuous Snowden disclosures

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by the media turning, if you will against this administration, which

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up until now has been a media dearlying. And extreme opinions from

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left and right. The marching orders for this commission this board has

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been let as come up with a bunch of changes. It is really not a serious

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dispassionate look at what is necessary for national security and

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also whether or not there are any abuses. It is remarkable unlike all

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the other episodes involving intelligence and reforms in this

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country and others, there has been zero abuses. Nobody has done

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anything wrong. Nobody has demonstrated that this level of

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collection, meta-data or otherwise, this is a very unfortunate exercise.

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This is a bipartisan inquiry, which has come up with conclusion about

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the need for change? But what I'm trying to say I wouldn't get too

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hung up on the question of who is bipartisan, Richard Glock, who used

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to work for the administration is a technocrat. The pressure for change

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is bipartisan, you have extreme right in the Republican Party,

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particularly the TEA Party, and extreme left in the Democratic

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party, and they are clamouring for it. Just because both sides are

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clamouring doesn't make it right. My point is there is no seriously

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well-conceived explanation of why the change is necessary. Either from

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a standpoint of the operational needs of the intelligence community

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in the age of global terror or the standpoint of abuses. What abuses

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have been demonstrated. Weren't you surprised by the scale of it? By the

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recommendations not at all. I'm so sorry I was unclear, I apologise,

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weren't you surprised by the scale of surveillance that was disclosed

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in these reports and leaks? No, quite frankly the biggest problem of

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the disclosures is the level of sensationalism it brings. Most

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people would understood that meta-data collection as we are

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correspondent detailed about its collection. If you are looking for a

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needle in a haystack, what sense does it make to have one half or one

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third of a stack. You need to collect all of the meta-data, and

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drill down on t and only do it in a limited fashion. I want to make sure

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your viewers understand that, you are only looking for conversation on

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which phone numbers were called or received called from a magic list of

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phone numbers associated with foreign terrorist entities. That is

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the only thing that is done as far as data analysis. You start with a

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tremendous data set and you drill it down to maybe a list of a few

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hundreds, or a couple of thousand. But any mathematician, any serious

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scientist will tell you there is no other way to do that. You have to

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start with the complete data set. I might get back to you in a minute or

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two, I hope. Glenn Greenwald was the person who brought it to the public

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attention on receiving the files. Do you think you have had a victory

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here? It has been a huge victory, it is the whole week has been an

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amazing victory. First a federal court, and not a liberal judge, one

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appointed by George W Bush, a conservative judge said it violates

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core privacy rights and said there was zero evidence that the NSA can

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present saying these things were helpful in stopping terrorist plots.

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And a group set up by President Obama and they said the name thing

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that this pose as threat to liberty and it is not necessary to stopping

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even a single terrorist plot. It is a complete vindication of everything

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Mr Snowden said early on and we have been reporting for the last six

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months. If it is acted upon will it meet your concerns? Well, there are

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still a lot of details to be worked out f it is acted upon in full it

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will be a very significant step to restoring individual privacy and

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some meaningful controls on the NSA which are currently lacking,

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absolutely. At that point your campaign ends, does it? No, remember

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there are still a lot of other abuses that the NSA is engaged n

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when it comes to spying on foreign national, not talking about

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meta-data, but the content of their e-mails, telephone calls, browsing

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histories, on-line chats. There are important regulatory constraints

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that need to be imposed on the NSA that means they are abiding by the

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rules. It is abusing its power the NSA, this is one important step to

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curbing the domestic part of those abuses. This is a mechanism for

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bringing the NSA under the control of the White House and other

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regulatory authorities. What is wrong with that? The NSA is already

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under the control of the White House because it is part of the defence

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department. The way it reports to the President as Commander-in-Chief.

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I'm not really sure what you are asking. It is already part of the

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executive branch under the authority of the White House. For example, on

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the question of the surveillance of foreign leaders, a particularly

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contentious issue, the proposal here is such authorisation has to come

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directly in the explicitly, in a particular case from the White

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House? Right, well first of all I think most insiders and there has

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been lots of people who have gone to reporters and said this, the White

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House was already ware of the targeting of these leaders. Although

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they deny it. Secondly the mere fact that the President approves of it

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doesn't make it right, the President approves of all sorts of things like

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imprisoning people at Guantanamo with no charges, and the current NSA

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programme. And there is a consensus that people believe these are wrong.

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More constraints is better, and they are heading in the right direction

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clearly as a result of what Mr Snowden did. On the basis of these

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recommendations would you be prepared to return to their rightful

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owners such files as are currently in your possession? The rightful

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owners of the information in these documents are the American people.

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Who paid for them and whose Government should not have been

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hiding these programmes from them. As a journalist I'm not going to

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return anything to the Government until we are done with our

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reporting, which means disclosing all of the news worthy item that is

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are contained in these documents precisely because as we have seen

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this week it brings about great debate, a strengthening of democracy

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and serious reforms. I will continue to do that because I'm a journalist.

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How long are you prepared to hang on to them for? I just gone done

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telling you I will hangen to them, as are the New York sometimes, and

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the Washington Post and other media organisations that have tens of

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thousands of documents aside from me for as long as it takes to continue

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to report on all of the news worthy items in them. Meaning things that

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the people of the United States and around the world have a right to

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know in terms of what is being done to their privacy and internet

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freedom. Are there any items among these newsworthy items as you put

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it, that you are not prepared to put it? As evidenced by the fact that we

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have only published a very small portion of the documents we

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received, despite having them for six months, of course there are

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things that as a responsible journalist I would not publish,

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including things that might help other states augment their

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surveillance capabilities. I would not publish things the NSA has about

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public privacy. I think it is clear my heself and the other newspapers

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have been extremely judicious with the material we have been given

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while reporting on them. Thank you for joining us. I hope that my guest

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is still able to talk to us. Did you hear that? Yes, I'm frankly struck

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by the hubris and arrogance of our guest, and NSA far from being a

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rogue agency, it is one agency in the world most subject to political

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controls, but fulsome judicial and congressional oversight. I would

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tell your viewers that not a single agency is that much subject to

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congressional and judicial oversight, but that is not enough

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for the likes of your guest. Think for a second that one of the reasons

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we suffered over 3,000 dead Americans in 9/11 is because we

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didn't have meta-data collection programmes. We didn't know that

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known terrorists from overseas were calling people, their confederates

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in the United States. That is why the whole programme was institutes,

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it is not a moshed a morbid desire to learn aboutth -- a morbid desire

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to learn about things. What do you say about that accusation, you are a

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menace? It is not an accusation, it is a fact. I think, I want to make a

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very important point about this, ever since 9/11 the US and UK

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Governments scream terrorism to justify everything they do, they

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scream 9/11. And yet what we have had in the last few weeks is

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senators on the Intelligence Committee who have said there is

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zero evidence that the NSA can point to that these programmes help stop

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terrorist plots. We had a court that said it just three days ago, a

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George W Bush apppointee, federal judge, who said there is no evidence

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the programme does that. Now we have an advisory board within the

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executive round who just said the same thing that they can't prove and

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there is no evidence that it helps to stop terrorism. All three

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branches said what was just said is pure fear mongering, there is no

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evidence for it. Screaming 9/11 no longer works to scare people and

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justify Government programmes. We will cut across you. Thank you very

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much indeed. Thank you. Thanks. In a moment we speak to the

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professional footballer who felt he couldn't play before British crowds

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as an openly gay man. You may recall our coverage a few

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weeks of the Bitcoin phenomenon. It is a virtual currency that seduced

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many who don't trust Government. Early last year a Bitcoin was worth

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$5, and they went up. Now we are worth a lot less. The bank

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responsible is the bank in China. It has no physical existence and can be

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carried on a memory stick, it is the antithesis of what the Communist

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Party stands for. They are banning the buying of goods with Bitcoin.

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The vision behind it is remarkable. Lots of uses are some what shady. It

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is symbolic of the concern China has about losing their grip on capital

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controls. Currencies are all about confidence, if enough people accept

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them as payment you know you can buy what you want and accept them too.

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In a prison it might be cigarette, on the Internet it is encrypted

:17:18.:17:21.

message that is you buy and send to other users to pay for your beer or

:17:22.:17:27.

cake. Bitcoin, today confidence in Bitcoin collapsed. Today has been an

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amazing day in the Bitcoin world. With interesting but concerning news

:17:32.:17:35.

from China. The issue is the Chinese Government has stopped the payment

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processor from allowing the normal Chinese population to deposit money

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into the biggest exchange in the world. Chinese people will find it

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difficult to buy Bitcoin in future. If it went in too easily it would

:17:53.:17:58.

become worth nothing. Its supply is controlled. Not by a Central Bank,

:17:59.:18:02.

users accept a protocol which restricts the supply of new Bitcoins

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to 150 of them per hour. While supply is restricted demand for

:18:07.:18:10.

Bitcoin has rocketed. Fed by the growing belief that it is credible

:18:11.:18:13.

and legal. At the start of the year one Bitcoin would cost you $13. 28.

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The price rose as traders guessed that the US would accept it as a

:18:24.:18:29.

legitimate exchange. And that happened.

:18:30.:18:32.

By the end of today it was worth less than half that. Imagine the

:18:33.:18:39.

pound rose by 40% one day and next month fell by 30%. Either of those

:18:40.:18:43.

events would be big enough to be regarded as a currency crisis to

:18:44.:18:46.

throw any Government into panic. That has what led critics of Bitcoin

:18:47.:18:52.

say it is too volatile to be seen as a currency, more like a get rich

:18:53.:18:56.

quick scheme. Bitcoin is no in no ready to be called a currency, given

:18:57.:19:00.

the volatility we have seen over the past few weeks, it has halved in

:19:01.:19:06.

value. Merchants can't use it as a medium of exchange, because they

:19:07.:19:10.

don't know the value of T we saw a guy buy a car in the United States

:19:11.:19:19.

for $103,000, and paid for it with Bitcoin, the value of Bitcoin halved

:19:20.:19:24.

and the dealership is down 50%. A month ago the much followed

:19:25.:19:29.

financial blogger was asked the financial question. Can you explain

:19:30.:19:32.

in an entirely understandable way what a Bitcoin. It is a electronic

:19:33.:19:40.

currency just like money without any state interference. He believes that

:19:41.:19:45.

the Bitcoin supply means it will be stronger in the long run than normal

:19:46.:19:51.

currencies where central banks create billions from midair? Bitcoin

:19:52.:19:57.

would say this the British pound, clearly the British pound supplies

:19:58.:20:01.

infinate, the Bank of England can print any number if they want. Any

:20:02.:20:06.

time they make a mistake they print more, that is a debasement of the

:20:07.:20:13.

currency. So Bitcoin is capped at 21,000. These pounds are backed by

:20:14.:20:24.

nothing. Don't do that! Today Bernat the US said it was slowing down its

:20:25.:20:30.

production of the dollar. The dollar only moved slightly, that is how the

:20:31.:20:34.

Fed like its currency nice and steady.

:20:35.:20:37.

It is three months since the world was transfixed by a terrorist attack

:20:38.:20:41.

on that symbol of western capitalism a shopping mall in Nairobi, nearly 0

:20:42.:20:48.

people died. Much of the attack was filmed on CCTV and the world's media

:20:49.:20:53.

awaited outside. All this time later the authorities in Kenya don't even

:20:54.:20:57.

know for certain how many people were involved in the attack on the

:20:58.:21:03.

west gate Mal -- Westgate Mal, or if any of the takers are still alive.

:21:04.:21:06.

There are increasing voices raised to suggest that in the aftermath

:21:07.:21:13.

parts of the Kenyan place are meting out summary justice to those they

:21:14.:21:19.

suspect of being involved in Islamic terrorism.

:21:20.:21:32.

A coastal paradise and gateway for terrorists. We're on the trail of

:21:33.:21:36.

the Westgate attackers. We have travelled to the lawless no man's

:21:37.:21:41.

land where their journey began. People are running away from

:21:42.:21:45.

Somalia, even the Al-Shabab and they are now escaping. ??FORCEDWHI It is

:21:46.:21:52.

a journey that would end in a four-day siege that would car a

:21:53.:21:55.

nation, what happened to the attackers? Could they have escaped

:21:56.:22:00.

during a bungled security operation. The intell begins officers told me

:22:01.:22:04.

they slipped out of Westgate and left the country. Insiders and

:22:05.:22:09.

radicals paint a picture of a dysfuntional, inept Security

:22:10.:22:13.

Service, funded by the west and lashing out at those they see as a

:22:14.:22:19.

threat. The British Government is helping the ATPO in Kenya kill

:22:20.:22:24.

Muslims by training them and providing them with logistical

:22:25.:22:30.

support and giving them money. Is Britain complicit in extra judicial

:22:31.:22:39.

killings in Kenya. We set off from Lamu on Kenya's coast, we are

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heading north towards the border with Somalia, it was somewhere here

:22:45.:22:48.

towards the end of June four men slipped quietly into Kenya. Those

:22:49.:22:54.

men would go on to carry out one of the deadliest attacks ever seen in

:22:55.:23:02.

the region. Al-Shabab and Al-Qaeda affiliates said it planned and

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executed the Westgate take in retaliation for Kenya's invasion of

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Somalia two years ago. That invasion was supposed to secure the country's

:23:14.:23:21.

borders. But the Border Force is overstreched, and the Westgate

:23:22.:23:24.

attackers took advantage of that fact to enter Kenya through this

:23:25.:23:31.

area. This block of concrete here marks the end of Kenya. Beyond this

:23:32.:23:37.

a little bit of no man's land and then Somalia. And standing here, it

:23:38.:23:41.

is easy to imagine what a challenge it must be to secure this border.

:23:42.:23:48.

Both the kilometres of shoreline and the cakers -- acres upon acres of

:23:49.:23:54.

bush and scrubland. No fence separates the two countries. Police

:23:55.:24:00.

are underequipped and understaffed. And yet the local police chief says

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he's received no reinforcements since Westgate. People are running

:24:08.:24:11.

away from Somalia, even the Al-Shababs, they are now escaping

:24:12.:24:15.

from Somalia, trying to penetrate into Kenya and to go in other

:24:16.:24:20.

directions. How often do you catch people? Let's say five, six people

:24:21.:24:24.

per week. How many do you think you are not watching? -- catching? For

:24:25.:24:34.

us the border is I'm sure people penetrating without us catching

:24:35.:24:38.

them. We now know that once inside Kenya the Westgate attackers made

:24:39.:24:42.

their way to Nairobi, where they spent three months planning the

:24:43.:24:47.

attack with the help of local Al-Shabab operatives, in an area

:24:48.:24:51.

known as Eastleigh, or little Mogadishu. On the day of the attack

:24:52.:24:56.

itself there was chaos. It took the security forces more than an

:24:57.:24:59.

hour-and-a-half to reach the scene. By the mid-afternoon the

:25:00.:25:03.

paramilitary police seemed to have the militants pinned down. CCTV only

:25:04.:25:09.

ever shows four likely armed attacker, not 15, as the Kenyans had

:25:10.:25:14.

initially claimed. But then the army came in and that's when things

:25:15.:25:19.

started to go wrong. What happened is there was a lack of co-ordination

:25:20.:25:23.

and each unit was coming in with its own command and you see the way the

:25:24.:25:29.

operation was bungled. When the army in everyone else was kicked out,

:25:30.:25:33.

this is where the operation started going badly. Three months after the

:25:34.:25:44.

attack, outside Westgate, young men shift sift through a mountain of

:25:45.:25:49.

rubble. They are still finding bullet cartridges in the rubble

:25:50.:25:55.

three months later. They are looking for stuff bigger than that to sell.

:25:56.:25:59.

But somewhere in. United States the FBI is still analysing that they

:26:00.:26:05.

found inside Westgate, they think they have the remains of three,

:26:06.:26:08.

possibly four individuals. They are testing them for DNA, at the moment

:26:09.:26:11.

they don't really know if they belong to the attackers.

:26:12.:26:17.

They may have been killed, but it is possible that they got away, escaped

:26:18.:26:21.

during the confusion of the siege. The truth is, at the moment even the

:26:22.:26:28.

investigators don't know. Less than two weeks after Westgate, young

:26:29.:26:33.

Muslim men clashed with police on the streets of Mombasa, Kenya's

:26:34.:26:37.

second city. The night before a radical preacher by the same of

:26:38.:26:41.

Ibrahim Rogo had been gunned down in his car as he travelled on the

:26:42.:26:47.

outskirts of the city. His supporters believe he was mud bird

:26:48.:26:51.

the Kenyan Security Services, specifically by an outfit known as

:26:52.:26:57.

the Anti- Terror Police Unit, or the ATPU. Officially members of the

:26:58.:27:08.

Kenyan Antit-Terror Police Unit deny any invest -- any involvement in

:27:09.:27:11.

these murders. One was prepared to talk off the record. He told me the

:27:12.:27:16.

justice system in Kenya is not favourable to the work of the police

:27:17.:27:21.

so we opted to eliminate them. We identify you, we gun you down in

:27:22.:27:24.

front of your family and we begin with the leaders. The aterror police

:27:25.:27:35.

United knit gets equipment and training from the UK. A report has

:27:36.:27:42.

been compiled detailing dozens of cases of terror, torture and

:27:43.:27:47.

rendition carried out by the ATPU. I was following this, I wept to the

:27:48.:27:55.

morgue, and attended post mortems, ATPU, they are confirming this. That

:27:56.:28:02.

is the reality, they can't disclose things, but the reality is they want

:28:03.:28:06.

to impress British, Americans and the world. Because they are getting

:28:07.:28:09.

funding from the Americans, because they are getting training from the

:28:10.:28:17.

British, no. The international community should go back to the

:28:18.:28:22.

drawing board. Few doubt that Kenya does have a

:28:23.:28:30.

problem with radicalisation. Abubakar Shariff Ahmed appears on UN

:28:31.:28:34.

and US sanctions lists. He's accused of being a leading facilitator and

:28:35.:28:39.

recruiter of young Kenyan Muslims for violent militant activity in

:28:40.:28:44.

Somalia. It is the same thing as telling a young man go, to the

:28:45.:28:47.

mosque and pray. It is the same thing as telling a young man, fast

:28:48.:28:52.

in Ramadan. It is the same thing to tell a young man your Muslim brother

:28:53.:28:58.

has been invaded in Somalia, go and help him. That is Islam. He denies

:28:59.:29:03.

recruiting for salt Shabab, but he says the Kenyan Security Services

:29:04.:29:09.

are systematically targeting those they perceive as a threat. They are

:29:10.:29:15.

precementing attacks by -- pre-empting attacks by those they

:29:16.:29:20.

think is a potential attacker or those who have who is potentially an

:29:21.:29:24.

instigator of attack. Are they picking up the right people? Mostly

:29:25.:29:29.

question, but also no. Do you fear for your safety? I don't fear for my

:29:30.:29:35.

safety, I know they are going to kill me. I'm a true Muslim, I

:29:36.:29:39.

believe my life and death is in the hand of lamb. I will try dye -- of

:29:40.:29:48.

Allah. I will die the day Allah decides. Some involved in counter

:29:49.:29:53.

terrorism in Kenya say the country's legal system is hampering their

:29:54.:29:58.

effos. If the police are involved in this it is out of frustration,

:29:59.:30:01.

because they have specific facts. They have done collectively their

:30:02.:30:05.

own intelligence. Probably they know this person is actually involved in

:30:06.:30:09.

terrorism. But you take him to court, tomorrow he is out on bond

:30:10.:30:14.

doing the same things. Estimates for youth unemployment in

:30:15.:30:20.

Kenya are as high as 80%. In mom bassia you don't have to -- Mombasa,

:30:21.:30:25.

you don't have to look hard for young Muslim men who believe the

:30:26.:30:31.

state has little to offer them, and the attempts to stem radicalisation

:30:32.:30:38.

has having the reverse effect. The Antit-Terror Police Unit they are

:30:39.:30:43.

killing us, as Muslims. They are killing our mothers. I'm not a

:30:44.:30:46.

Kenyan, I have no citizenship of this country. As Muslims we are

:30:47.:30:53.

being squeezed. I have no problem if they join Al-Shabab or Al-Qaeda, it

:30:54.:31:00.

is part of Jihad. That is Jihad, everyone should and can go and meet

:31:01.:31:06.

his brothers there. It is about his beliefs only. In a statement the

:31:07.:31:12.

Foreign Office said it took allegations of human rights abuse

:31:13.:31:15.

very seriously. But that the British Government was working with the

:31:16.:31:19.

Kenyan authorities to tackle threats to UK interests. When the Olympic

:31:20.:31:28.

diver Tom Daley announced that he was dating a man, he wondered

:31:29.:31:33.

whether it was easier to make such a declaration if you were an

:31:34.:31:35.

individual sportsman than if you were part of a team. Shortly we will

:31:36.:31:39.

find out. Because we're about to hear from the footballer, Robbie

:31:40.:31:43.

Rogers. It was only after he left Leeds

:31:44.:31:48.

United that the US-born Rogers announced in February his retirement

:31:49.:31:52.

as a professional footballer, and the fact that he was gay. He became

:31:53.:31:58.

the first man to do so in Britain since Justin Fashanu came out in

:31:59.:32:04.

1990. Writing in his blog he said. D..

:32:05.:32:18.

But within a couple of months he was back on the field, this time on home

:32:19.:32:25.

territory as a soccer player for LA Galaxy, citing the fact he had a

:32:26.:32:29.

platform to be a role model. He felt it would be cowardly not to play

:32:30.:32:33.

again. But there was sufficient homophobia still about that the

:32:34.:32:41.

fight was far from over. The campaign BEYOND It, has been very

:32:42.:32:43.

successful in the United States. This week he has joined up with his

:32:44.:32:51.

old club, Leeds United to launch the campaign here. Why are you the only

:32:52.:33:01.

, second person to come out? It is the atmosphere in the locker room

:33:02.:33:04.

and stadiums. It was growing up as a footballer and hearing things in

:33:05.:33:07.

locker rooms that really scarred me and made me believe it wasn't

:33:08.:33:15.

possible. Homophobic comments? Yeah. Was this because they were directed

:33:16.:33:20.

at you or just general talk? General talk. General talk for example like

:33:21.:33:25.

how someone could even be gay, that would be a discussion in a football

:33:26.:33:30.

locker room. How did you feel when you heard that? I felt awful, of

:33:31.:33:35.

course, but I would avoid the conversation, I would go more into

:33:36.:33:39.

myself and repress that kind of stuff. It got to a point when I was

:33:40.:33:44.

24, 25, I was like all right I can't live this way. You came out just

:33:45.:33:51.

after you announced your retirement at the same time? I came tout my

:33:52.:33:56.

family in October -- I came out to my family in October/November and

:33:57.:34:00.

planned to stop football, I didn't know what the reaction would be.

:34:01.:34:04.

What was the reaction? Very, very supportive. Which was the exact

:34:05.:34:07.

opposite that I thought would happen. My family from the first

:34:08.:34:11.

second I told them was very supportive, and that's in the end

:34:12.:34:16.

why I went back to football. Do you worry about how the fans would have

:34:17.:34:20.

taken it if you were still playing? In England, yeah. It is great

:34:21.:34:23.

question. No-one has done it, so that was my fears. I had no-one to

:34:24.:34:29.

look up to test those waters for me before I went out there. I did it

:34:30.:34:35.

back in the US because it is not as big a spotlight on football. My

:34:36.:34:39.

family is in LA, if I was really struggling I could always just go

:34:40.:34:44.

home. But I mean eventually someone will do it and footballers will do

:34:45.:34:48.

it, that will be interesting to see. By the law of averages there must be

:34:49.:35:01.

a lot of gay men playing football? I haven't had one text or phone calls

:35:02.:35:06.

about it. I have spoken to friends here and around the UK who have

:35:07.:35:09.

supported me, but not one message from a footballer. What do you

:35:10.:35:14.

deduce from that? It reminds me of the fear that I had and I'm,

:35:15.:35:19.

sometimes you forget when you are on the other side, but you remember

:35:20.:35:24.

that atmosphere and how it made you feel. By the law of averages there

:35:25.:35:29.

are lots of gay footballers? Yeah I know, that shows you there is a huge

:35:30.:35:33.

problem. What do you do to change that, you try to support them and

:35:34.:35:37.

create an environment that is, that would support them to come out and

:35:38.:35:41.

that they would feel comfortable in. But it is really tough. Do you in

:35:42.:35:46.

any sense wish you had done it while you were still an active player? I'm

:35:47.:35:54.

an active player now. But at the end you said you were quitting? No, I am

:35:55.:35:58.

happeny the way I did it, goat to step away and take time for myself,

:35:59.:36:02.

I didn't have people dragging me to do interviews or anything like that.

:36:03.:36:05.

I was in total control and say what I wanted to say. You feel now you

:36:06.:36:10.

have some sort of duty? No, yeah I do. I know when I realised I'm the

:36:11.:36:17.

only one that's doing this. So you know after months of taking some

:36:18.:36:19.

time for myself and receiving letters from people I realised I was

:36:20.:36:23.

being a coward by not going back to football. And I missed it, and it

:36:24.:36:27.

was something I have done my whole life, so I did feel the

:36:28.:36:31.

responsibility. And what was it like when you discovered that your

:36:32.:36:35.

anxiety about how people would react had been misplaced? Yeah, there was

:36:36.:36:40.

two sides of it, sometimes people say do you think footballers make a

:36:41.:36:44.

bigger deal out of it than it is, or athletes. I say nor, no, definite --

:36:45.:36:49.

no, definitely not, they are not coming out because they hear so many

:36:50.:36:53.

things that scare them. My mom said to me I think have you learned that

:36:54.:36:57.

you should give people a chance as well. Give people a chance to get to

:36:58.:37:01.

know you and to see that, yes you are a footballer, you are gay, but

:37:02.:37:05.

there are more sides to you. I did learn that lesson from this, to be

:37:06.:37:10.

open with people and give people a chance. Were your parents surprised?

:37:11.:37:14.

Yes and no, they say sometimes they were, and then they said you dated

:37:15.:37:20.

girls and you threw us off. I'm like OK. That is what I have heard from

:37:21.:37:23.

everybody, I guess I was a good actor. Do you think it is harder to

:37:24.:37:28.

come out if you are playing a team sport as opposed to an individual

:37:29.:37:32.

sport? I haven't played any individual sport, I can speak from

:37:33.:37:35.

my experience and my biggest fear was going back into a locker room

:37:36.:37:40.

and the thought of being treated as an outcast, that was the one thing I

:37:41.:37:44.

didn't want to do. Playing a team sport obviously you are dealing with

:37:45.:37:47.

all those permties and people from all around the world. Is it to do

:37:48.:37:52.

with being naked in the locker room together? No, it is sitting there

:37:53.:38:01.

with all the guys, the banter and talking and trying to fit in all

:38:02.:38:07.

that stuff. It is the team and you are brothers and you fight every

:38:08.:38:10.

week to win a game together. To be outcasted from a group like that and

:38:11.:38:15.

you are there every day is awful. I felt inside that way, but I wasn't

:38:16.:38:20.

treated, no-one knew I was gay. No-one accused me or pointed a

:38:21.:38:24.

finger at me. They didn't know. Do you think it was an unfounded fear?

:38:25.:38:29.

No, because it was the things that I heard my whole life that scared me.

:38:30.:38:35.

From a very conservative Catholic family I'm, from in calm foreignia,

:38:36.:38:39.

I have been playing football my whole life, the things I heard in

:38:40.:38:43.

stadiums and locker rooms made me think I could not play soccer and

:38:44.:38:47.

come out. They are not talking about you? But they are talking about

:38:48.:38:52.

people on the streets, and how could you even be gay man or fall in love

:38:53.:38:57.

with a man. I'm hearing these conversations and riding the bike

:38:58.:39:01.

and thinking this is not the atmosphere for me. In retrospect it

:39:02.:39:06.

was not something you needed to fear? If hi come out and said

:39:07.:39:12.

actually wait, it would have been awkward, but after a few days or a

:39:13.:39:16.

week they would have gotten over it. I'm hoping other athletes will do

:39:17.:39:21.

it. Thank you. As we all know one of the main functions of the internet

:39:22.:39:24.

is to facilitate masturbation, or worse, the Prime Minister has made

:39:25.:39:28.

it his mission to protect children from the called adult material

:39:29.:39:33.

that's there and has encouraged the broadband companies and search

:39:34.:39:37.

engines to install room felters. But news -- felters, but Newsnight has

:39:38.:39:43.

found rather than stopping teenagers clicking through to pornography,

:39:44.:39:50.

some are preventing access to sexual health and rape advice sites.

:39:51.:39:54.

Companies say they still have serious concerns about the whole

:39:55.:39:55.

idea. Politicians are worried about the

:39:56.:40:19.

massive internet traffic to porn sites. There are things that are

:40:20.:40:22.

direct danger to the children that must be stamped out. 82% of British

:40:23.:40:26.

people are really worried about how easy it is to access porn, it is

:40:27.:40:30.

unique that people feel so helpless about this. Porn is the most

:40:31.:40:35.

frequent search term on Google, we cannot allow an industry that make

:40:36.:40:39.

millions out of porn month on month to dictate the pace of change. We

:40:40.:40:44.

have come a long way from the old familiar face of the industry. Soho

:40:45.:40:50.

in London. After pressure from newspapers and child safety

:40:51.:40:53.

campaigners, the Government had little choice but to act. The big

:40:54.:40:58.

internet firms were told to block porn by default to watch any

:40:59.:41:02.

restricted content a customer will have to change his or her broadband

:41:03.:41:08.

settings. Basic parental controls have of course been around for

:41:09.:41:11.

years, but in general you have to go to the trouble of installing

:41:12.:41:14.

software on your computer itself, which then blocks certain websites.

:41:15.:41:23.

These new network-level filteres are much more sophisticated. BT is

:41:24.:41:26.

letting me log on and block sites not from my laptop but the Internet

:41:27.:41:32.

connection itself. Any gadgets from games consoles to phones should be

:41:33.:41:39.

covered by the filter in the same way. TalkTalk was the first big

:41:40.:41:47.

company to do this, the others have caught up, with Sky and BT launching

:41:48.:41:59.

their porn F ilters with their children. Lots of parents find it

:42:00.:42:03.

difficult to talk to their children about sex and porn. I hope that will

:42:04.:42:07.

change, and through the initiatives some of the conversations will take

:42:08.:42:10.

place. We still have a responsibility to do what we can at

:42:11.:42:14.

a technical level, not perfect, not enough, but we still have a

:42:15.:42:18.

responsibility to try to help with technical solutions, wherever we

:42:19.:42:25.

can. As you can see here, this is your site, this is now not running

:42:26.:42:31.

on the TalkTalk network. But critics say internet filters are a blunt

:42:32.:42:38.

instrument, Justin Hancock runs one of the most popular sex education

:42:39.:42:44.

sites on the Internet for under-18s, nothing pornographic here. On the

:42:45.:42:47.

system click on that you will see it is blocked straight away.? When you

:42:48.:42:53.

switch to the TalkTalk network his site is suddenly unavailable. It is

:42:54.:42:59.

coming up as a porn site. Broadband companies will say this was probably

:43:00.:43:03.

just an oversight, if you contact them they will get the block removed

:43:04.:43:06.

and everything will be fine again? They might fix my site in the

:43:07.:43:09.

short-term, what about all the other sites out there for young people.

:43:10.:43:13.

Not just sex education websites but support forums for young people

:43:14.:43:16.

around sex and relationship, the young people who are lesbian, gay,

:43:17.:43:25.

bisexual or trans, who are TalkTalk to say what is allowed or not. When

:43:26.:43:32.

we looked their porn filter also blocks other sex education sites and

:43:33.:43:36.

Labour party crisis centre. And BT banned a connection to a number of

:43:37.:43:41.

domestic violence charities. In its advertising BT boasts its new filter

:43:42.:43:46.

gives peace of mind anywhere in the home, Talk Talk says it protests you

:43:47.:43:54.

on-line. All the filteres perform reasonably

:43:55.:43:58.

well in a test. BT and Sky let through one of 68 popular adult

:43:59.:44:07.

sites, TalkTalk let through more. Scratch beneath the surface and

:44:08.:44:11.

plenty of ex-police the material is easily available. The Internet chat

:44:12.:44:19.

board, Read It, hosts adult content. This is one of the tamest pictures,

:44:20.:44:24.

none blocked. The industry may support this idea,

:44:25.:44:29.

in private it is another matter. One major broadband company told us it

:44:30.:44:33.

has deep reservations about the entire exercise, which it says is

:44:34.:44:40.

just pandering to the daily Mail, others say it is a result of lobby

:44:41.:44:49.

by Christian groups. Not one of the four large internet service

:44:50.:44:51.

providers would talk on camera. So we came to the offices of one of

:44:52.:44:55.

their smaller competitors, the boss here is a father of five and he's

:44:56.:45:00.

far from convinced porn filteres are the answer. How do the systems, the

:45:01.:45:05.

blocking system, how do he they know what to block and what to let

:45:06.:45:08.

through? This is the challenge, you can't have a roomful of people

:45:09.:45:13.

trying to find dodgy website, you have to start with looking for key

:45:14.:45:17.

words. It is an arms industry. The porn industry is a legitimate

:45:18.:45:20.

commercial industry they will fight back. They will find ways to move

:45:21.:45:24.

their websites around to bypass the blocks to make them encrypted this.

:45:25.:45:28.

Will allow people to get to them whether they are kids or not. The

:45:29.:45:33.

official line from all the big broadband companies is there is no

:45:34.:45:39.

single solution and any filtering system won't work perfectly to begin

:45:40.:45:43.

with. There are systems in place to correct any mistakes. Even one of

:45:44.:45:46.

the Government's own advisers on internet safety thinks all this is

:45:47.:45:49.

making it harder, not easier for parents. I think there is a huge

:45:50.:45:56.

risk at the moment and I think it is, it comes out of a desire to do

:45:57.:45:59.

the right thing, but there is a very big risk that we are focussing so

:46:00.:46:08.

heavily on filters and all of the ISPs having them and public Wi-Fi

:46:09.:46:12.

having them, the message is getting through to parents that the filteres

:46:13.:46:18.

will do the job, but no filter will be perfect, even if they were

:46:19.:46:22.

perfect there is still a job for parents to do. The Government has

:46:23.:46:28.

told Newsnight it has now asked its advisers to check that sex advice

:46:29.:46:35.

sites are not being sensored. -- censored. Any quick fix won't be the

:46:36.:46:41.

answer, it might be possible to control a red light district, but

:46:42.:46:44.

can authorities hope to control something like the Internet in the

:46:45.:46:47.

first place. That's about it for tonight. The

:46:48.:46:52.

Bank of England announced a major plastic monetary innovation today.

:46:53.:46:56.

One of our producers stress tested it. Good night.

:46:57.:47:26.

# You took my by surprise I must say # When I found out yesterday

:47:27.:47:34.

# Don't you know # I heard it through the grapevine

:47:35.:47:44.

# Not much longer will you be mine # I heard it through

:47:45.:47:45.

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