19/12/2013 Newsnight


19/12/2013

Woolwich verdict; UK complicity in 'rendition' flights; theatre roof collapse; President Putin pardons political foe; Obamacare and Gaia launch.


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Whiched Fusilier Ian Rigby's killers were convicted today of his cold

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blooded murder. They were followers of extreme political Islam for many

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years. Why were they not stopped when the warning signs, such as a

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hatred of the west were there. You are clear that this kind of ideology

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of hatred, of conflict can feed into terrorism? It isn't just "can" feed

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into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism and they produce

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terrorism. Since 9/11 we have been repeatedly assured that the UK

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played no part in rendition suspects. Today the Government was

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confronted with evidence that this is not true. Why no independent

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inquiry as David Cameron once promised. We speak to Sir Menzies

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Campbell, part of the group investigating what happened.

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Dimir Putin says he intended to pardon Russia's richest man, is it

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an attempt to get the world on side ahead of the Sochi Olympics. Gaia,

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the most powerful telescope in the world was launched today, ready to

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map a billion stars. How will it transform our understanding of the

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galaxy? As we go on air tonight there are dramatic scenes in the

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heart of London Theatreland, where part of the roof of the Apollo

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Theatre has collapsed during the performance of the curious Incident

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of a Dog In the Nightime. We will bring you latest pictures and news.

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The two killers of Ian Rigby described themselves as soldiers of

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Allah. They were convicted today after a trial which exposed his

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killers' extreme interpretation of Islam and their complete lack of

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remorse. There were danger signs, both men associated with known

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Islamist extremists from groups this programme has tracked for years. So

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what role did radicalisation play in the brutal take and after Lee

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Rigby's murder will there be a crackdown. There are distressing

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images from the start. Fusilier Le Rigg was the victim of a

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savage attack. You can see him highlighted, a Carayolying his

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killers accelerated knocking him down. The occupants got out,

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stabbing him repeatedly, they tried to can he cap Tate him. --

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decapitate him. The only reason we have killed this man today is

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because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. He was the soldier

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that was spotted first. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

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We swear by a mighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you

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leave us alone. The soldier is the fairest target. This horrific attack

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and murder, which took place in broad daylight on the streets of

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London shocked the whole country. The brutal murder of Lee Rigby,

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right here said something about criminally deranged minds, it said

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something about the threat of extremism in Britain today, and the

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tiny minority of Muslims who believe that Islam is at war with the west.

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Crickets say successive Governments have failed to address this problem

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for more than 15 years. For some like this Islamic scholar, the

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murder of Lee Rigby is a journey beginning before the 9/11 attacks in

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2001. We have to think very coverallly, because if we don't

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arrest this now, even though it is very late in the day, there are

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still those who are coming from Syria, coming from Somalia, coming

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from Pakistan, coming from Afghanistan. Coming back to the

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country? Coming back to the country. More murderers are coming on the

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way, if you are not very careful. Anjum chowedry, -- Choudray one of

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the most vocal Islamists in the country, he was a leading figure in

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a leading Islamic group. When that was banned other splinter groups

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emerged, it is clear that Adebolajo was interested in extreme political

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Islam. Choudray told me he was never a member, but admitted that

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Adebolajo did attempt. Do you believe David Cameron gets caught in

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the street, do you think we start fussing our guns, will the

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politicians get done, it will be the average guys like you and your

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children. Get rid of them, tell them to bring our troops back so you can

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all live in peace. His accomplice, Michael Adabowale attended the same

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event outside St Paul's Cathedral in London last year. If you see evil

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change it with your hand if can you do so, if you cannot do so, them

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speak out against it. You are clear that this kind of ideology of

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hatred, of conflict, can feed into terrorism? It is not just it can

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feed into terrorism, it does feed into terrorism, if the men -- it is

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the main producer of terrorism. Hate receipt is the basic starting point.

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When the two planes magnificently ran through those buildings, OK, and

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people turn around and say, hang on a second, that is barbaric... I have

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been following the group for more than a decade, this was in 2004, I

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was I was invited to attend a meeting. You describe the planes

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flying into the two towers, and you said it was magnificent, how can you

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justify that as Islam, Jewish or Christian. If you start the war we

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won't give the other cheek. The actual killing of innocent civilians

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can't be right? It can't be right according to you. According to you

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it can't be right. According to Islam it is absolutely right. A year

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later, immediately after the London bombings, I caught up with another

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leading figure in the group. What I would say about those who do suicide

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operations or martyr operations, suicide is a term kind in the media,

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they are completely praiseworthy. Remember the man who called the 9/11

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attacks magnificent, we talked to him in 2005. For them the banner has

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been risen inside the UK for Jihad. For them they are allowed to attack,

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they have probably many other cells in the UK. What the radicals say,

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and they have said it to me personally, you are a kaffer you are

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less worthwhile than a -- kaffir, and you are less worthwhile than a

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fellow Muslim? They are absolutely wrong. To judge who is what is not

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any Muslim or any person's business, we are not gods. It is God's

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business to judge. Anjum Choudray refused to condemn Lee Rigby's

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murder, he prefers to condemn Muslim murders around the world. He said:

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There is another radical, a supporter of the group, who

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reportedly came into contact with Lee Rigby's killers. His name is

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Usman Ali, he has previously admitted joining the group in the

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199 #0S. This was his local mosque, Greenwich Islamic Centre. He used to

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run prayer sessions here. The mosque leadership spent ?30,000 of their

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own money taking him to court after they said he had shown footage of

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the 9/11 attacks to an audience, including children. In 2007 the

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court agreed to a lifetime ban. After he got kicked out of the

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Islamic Centre, the former member of the group came here to the community

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centre in Plumstead, this place has received some council funding. We

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understand that the two killers attended at least some of his

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lectures here. The council denies there is a problem with extremist

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preaching at the centre. We tried to speak to Usman Ali, but he declined

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to answer questions. Previously he denied's extremist, and says doesn't

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support terrorism. We Muslims have suffered, and if we do not take

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action then we will suffer even more. But in order to be fective

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then we need the support of the Government, the state, the people.

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Massive mobilisation at all levels from schools, colleges,

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universities, mosques, churches, any place of gathering this should be

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the discussion. There are signs of a fundamental re-think about how to

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tackle extremism. This document published just a couple of weeks ago

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by a special Government task force contains a very interesting clause,

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it says we have been too reticent to deal with extremism in this country.

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In part, because of a misplaced concern that attacking Islamist

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extremism equates to an attack on Islam itself. It is clear after the

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murder of Lee Rigby the Maoed is about to change. But change is

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coming late. 12 years after -- the mood is about to change. But change

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is coming late, 12 years after 9/11, and ten years after Britain accepted

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radicals saying they weren't plotting terrorism here. Lee Rigby's

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murder carries another meaning, can the will be found to tackle

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extremism, not just those who plan violence but those who preach hate.

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This is the biggest security challenge for the UK. To discuss

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that I'm joined now by my guests. Baroness Polly Neville Jones, a

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senior researcher of the anti-extreme agency, and a senior

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research fellow. These men were radicalised not just by the Internet

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or even on the Internet, but out on the streets, out in different

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places. Why were they not picked up. We have seen that they actually were

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very public in their condemnation of the west? We have also seen that

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there are hundreds of young men like this, probably thousands with those

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views and the Security Services can't keep an eye on two or three

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thousand people 24/7. That is the essence of the problem. Also has

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there been a disconnect that other Muslims perhaps who know them or who

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live in the street beside them are reluctant to come forward? It is

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possible that some of their friend or close family may have known about

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this, and that we know it is very difficult to get close knit

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communities and families to speak out. The fundamental challenge is to

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destroy the argument that they use. Those placards in the street, what

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he was saying, all those arguments need to be taken head on. Do you

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think part of the problem is there has not been a preparedness to take

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these arguments head on, not a preparedness to discuss British

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foreign policy, not a preparedness to discuss how you pond to it if you

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are unhappy about it. Even to be seen to be discussing this flags you

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out as extremist? I don't think that is the case, I do think that

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Government has to be prepared to defend the policies that it pursues,

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but I think the Government has been pretty clear for some time. The

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issue is not just violence, it is actually extremism. And where we

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need to go now is developing a policy which actually tackle

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extremism. That is the root of the thing. We have to live in a country

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where we share basic values. Do you agree that the problem is there are

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so many people that hold the similar views that it is impossible to track

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them down. One of them was actually ejected from Kenya, one was filmed

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on a soapbox, are they so off the radar? Two things, one is clearly

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you have to pursue and you have to try to get hold of, and you have to

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try to neutralise those who are already down the road to violence,

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but there is a separate very important task, which is prevent

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others following them. That is where we have to go to limit the numbers.

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Now we have this document about tackling extremism, is the

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Government going about this the right way? Parts of the document

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should definitely be welcomed. Which parts? To actually define extremism

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and to say that is at the root of this is very important. Some of the

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focus on universities, on prisons, there are a number of things to be

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welcomed. But, at the same time they advocated a lot of consultation,

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looking at new legislation, are you trying to be seen to do something

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new? But actually we have a significant body of counter

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terrorism legislation that we just simply don't enforce. Is part of the

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reason we don't enforce that a timidity, a danger to be seen to be

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anti-Islamic? It may be, I think also some of the offences I'm

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thinking of, like prescribed organisation offences are quite hard

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to prove, and I think there might be an unwillingness or inability to do

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so. I think given the men's connections to the extremism group

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the offences need to be taken seriously, they can be used to

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disrupt the extremist preaching we are so concerned about. A

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contributor to the film says the Government needs to do more, needs

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to step in and help more. The idea of helping Imams on campuses and so

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forth to make sure they are picking out people who are problematic. Do

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you think that is enough, or do we need to have a whole different

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discussion about the way we conduct foreign policy? I don't think it is

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Government but people who work with Government. It is civic society that

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needs to take the lead there, more Government support actually ruins

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the work because people say Government sell-out. It needs Muslim

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leadership, Muslim communities to stand up to the hate preachers and

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say enough of this in our mosques, community centres, campuses. It is a

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small minority and they are very vocal. They are challenging the

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Government report saying it is anti-Islam, those arguments need to

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be challenged. It is civilic society, decent Muslims need to

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stand up. It is interesting you should say that the decent Muslims

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of which 99% plus are the case. But within the Muslim communities don't

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we need to have much more engagment within the broader parts of the

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United Kingdom, we are discussing this with each other? Certainly we

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need wider society to discuss this. But when you say 99% of decent

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Muslim, the proportion of extremist sympathisers is very high. Some of

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those slogans, people won't support terrorism or violence but they will

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support the anti-western and pro-Sharia. How do you deal with

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that, they might not agree with it whole heartedly but they won't, as

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it were turn people in. There is a lot of people like that it has just

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been said? You have several problems and you can't tackle all of them and

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solve all of them. Some people will actually slip and get through the

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net because they are not reported on. Having said that, I don't think

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that should be, we need to pursue those people, but we need to do a

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lot of other things as well. Where I think we do need to focus our

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attention in the light of what the Prime Minister himself has been

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saying about extremism is that actually we need to enlarge the

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programmes which are directed absolutely specifically at creating

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a much more integrated community in this country. That's very important.

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Put money in there. One thing you think would make a difference? going

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unchallenged. Enforcing existing legislation and taking seriously

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people in mosques and universities. Institutions or people promoting

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those views is unacceptable. We need to do both. Thank you very much.

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Now when David Cameron announced an inquiry where the judge Sir Peter

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Gibson, into allegations of British involvement in rendition flights and

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the abuse of terror suspect, the Prime Minister said he was

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determined to clear things up in order to restore Britain's moral

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leadership. That inDwyery was parked -- inquiry was parked last year, so

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as not to compromise police investigations, today in the Commons

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there were accusations of whitewash when the Government presented

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Gibson's interim findings. He said they would be taken up by the

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Intelligence and Security Committee instead.

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27 questions of what happened in the aftermath of 9/11, how our security

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forces acts and whether they were complicit in kidnap and torture. The

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first stories of rendition, ghost flights and black prisons trickled

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out in the early 2000s, claims the CIA was deliberately moving

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prisoners between a network of secret jails, how much did MI6 and

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the British Government know about this? In 2010 David Cameron promised

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an independent inquiry, led by a judge, to many that question. The

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longer these questions remain unanswered the bigger the stain on

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our reputation as a country that believes in freedom and fairness and

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human rights. Sir Peter Gibson has had access to 20,000 top secret

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files. After a two-year review he chooses his words carefully. It does

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appear from the documents that the United Kingdom may have been

:19:58.:20:02.

inappropriately involved in some renditions, that is a very serious

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matter. But Sir Peter's inquiry was forced to stop work early, that is

:20:09.:20:11.

because of what's alleged to have happened in this Libyan prison. The

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police are still investigating claims that British spies provided

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tip-offs which led to suspects being tortured. The Minister without

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Portfolio. Mr Keneth Clarke. In a report to parliament, Sir Peter set

:20:26.:20:29.

out 27 different questions, the Security Services still need to

:20:30.:20:33.

answer about rendition. In a U-turn the inquiry will now be by

:20:34.:20:36.

parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee, and not the

:20:37.:20:42.

promised independent judge. The Prime Minister was right to have

:20:43.:20:48.

initiated a judge-led inquiry, I'm sorry to see it go, that would have

:20:49.:20:52.

been the best way to restore public confidence. You need to bear in mind

:20:53.:20:56.

that the Intelligence and Security Committee has already done a report

:20:57.:21:00.

into this in 2007. They came to the conclusion that there were no

:21:01.:21:04.

problems on this issue of kidnap and torture and they were completely

:21:05.:21:09.

wrong. The following year the High Court concluded that Britain had

:21:10.:21:13.

facilitated kidnap and torture. The decision is also a blow to math man,

:21:14.:21:19.

the Libyan, Hakim Belhadj. He claims MI6 provided information which led

:21:20.:21:24.

to his kidnap and rendition in 2004. Without having a largely open

:21:25.:21:30.

process, where those who have been abused get to put their case forward

:21:31.:21:34.

and we get to cross-examine witnesses, without those measures in

:21:35.:21:38.

place you won't get to the truth of what really happened. The man who

:21:39.:21:42.

would lead the new inquiry said the public can have faith in the

:21:43.:21:49.

committee. The law now requires the intelligence agencies, They have a

:21:50.:21:54.

statutory duty to provide the information we seek. Our staff for

:21:55.:21:59.

the first time ever go into MI six, MI5 and can themselves examine the

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files. There can be confidence that anything that is relevant we will

:22:05.:22:07.

see. With 27 different questions to answer, the committee will have to

:22:08.:22:11.

work hard to prove it can be as independent as the judge-led inquiry

:22:12.:22:18.

once promised by David Cameron. Menzies Campbell, a member of the

:22:19.:22:22.

Intelligence Security Committee joins me from Edinburgh, Clare Algar

:22:23.:22:26.

the executive director of human rights Campaign Group Reprieve, is

:22:27.:22:31.

here in London. First of all, your manifesto commitment called for a

:22:32.:22:34.

judge-led inquiry, you have been involved in two previous committee

:22:35.:22:38.

inquiries that came up with absolutely nothing, that is

:22:39.:22:40.

hopeless, isn't it? I wouldn't say that at all. The conclusions reached

:22:41.:22:45.

on previous occasions were based on the information that was made

:22:46.:22:48.

aveilable to the committee -- available to the committee. There

:22:49.:22:52.

wasn't the opportunity to examine the 20,000 documents that Sir Peter

:22:53.:22:56.

Gibson's preliminary inquiry has examined. And the powers of the

:22:57.:22:59.

committee at that time were quite different as Malcolm Rifkind has

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just pointed out. These are very different circumstances, obtained at

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a time when the judge-led inquiry was promised. They are different

:23:08.:23:11.

circumstances but the interesting thing as Menzies Campbell said, they

:23:12.:23:14.

didn't have access to the other information then, which shows that

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both the inquiries stood for nothing. Yes, I mean as was

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mentioned earlier, our client Hakim Belhadj was rendered to Libya in

:23:27.:23:33.

2004, when Tripoli fell we found a letter in the office of the spy

:23:34.:23:40.

master Mousa Koussa, signed by the director of MI6, taking personal

:23:41.:23:45.

credit for the air cargo delivered, and three years later the IOC knows

:23:46.:23:52.

nothing about it. And the next thing referred to in the report was

:23:53.:24:00.

referring to Mr Muhammad's case is there is nothing referring to the

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case. You know something will happen because it couldn't possibly not

:24:03.:24:05.

happen now with the raising of the flag? The changes to the ISC can

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demand rather than request documents and the ISC was previously made up

:24:17.:24:20.

of people chosen by the Prime Minister is now people nominated by

:24:21.:24:25.

the Prime Minister and then elected. It doesn't seem that it will have

:24:26.:24:28.

the credibility that the Prime Minister was going for with the

:24:29.:24:38.

judge-led panel. Society has Prior to becoming a member of the

:24:39.:24:42.

Intelligence Security Committee I had great interest into this, I was

:24:43.:24:46.

the first one to raise the question of whether Diego Garcia was used for

:24:47.:24:50.

that purpose. I have a strong interest in asking the kind of

:24:51.:24:53.

questions necessary to get to the truth. On that point let me

:24:54.:24:59.

interrupt just a second. Based on the 20,000 documents. On that very

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point you are making about rendition, one of the Reprieve

:25:03.:25:09.

reports said there were 107 drops by CIA flights? I asked questions about

:25:10.:25:14.

that as well and didn't get what I now understand to be satisfactory

:25:15.:25:20.

answers. But just remember this, the claim of whitewash is easy to make,

:25:21.:25:25.

it is difficult to disprove until the work is carried out and there is

:25:26.:25:29.

no other Select Committee of parliament which has as its

:25:30.:25:35.

membership, among its membership three QCs and a former cabinet

:25:36.:25:41.

secretary, all of with experience of cross-examination, and in the

:25:42.:25:44.

cabinet secretary's case a real and intimate understanding of how

:25:45.:25:47.

intelligence is treated in Government. Yet when you have the

:25:48.:25:51.

opportunity to cross-examine the three spy chiefs, they were handed

:25:52.:25:55.

the questions in advance and they weren't exactly grilled. That was

:25:56.:25:58.

the very first time that any spy chief had appeared in public. Not

:25:59.:26:01.

surprisingly they were concerned that they did not reveal classified

:26:02.:26:06.

information, and so too was the committee. But we have broken that

:26:07.:26:10.

particular ice and you can be certain that people like myself and

:26:11.:26:15.

others on the committee will not spare any service chief or any

:26:16.:26:20.

officer of any service if we feel it is necessary in order to get to the

:26:21.:26:27.

truth. It is a credibility point. That was the moment when the

:26:28.:26:32.

newly-fledged ISC was there. A Tory MP called it a pantomime. We have to

:26:33.:26:36.

stop it there, thank you very much, we will be returning to this.

:26:37.:26:40.

Back to the news that part of the ceiling of the Apollo Theatre in

:26:41.:26:44.

London has collapsed urgh a performance. What is the latest now?

:26:45.:26:50.

Kirsty, we know now that there have been no fatalities from this. We

:26:51.:26:56.

have the total number of injured, 85 is total, 81 walking wounded that is

:26:57.:27:01.

cuts and bruises and the like, four more seriously injured but nothing

:27:02.:27:04.

life-threatening. Those four have been taken to three hospitals around

:27:05.:27:09.

London, including UCH and St Thomas's. When I got here just

:27:10.:27:15.

before 9.00, it was a chaotic scene, there was a lot of police shouting

:27:16.:27:20.

about people getting behind cordons, thousands of people out partying in

:27:21.:27:26.

Soho as they do, trying to bring that to order. Sigh witnesses

:27:27.:27:29.

telling accounts of what happened with so the on their faces. faces.

:27:30.:27:36.

00 packed into the theatre watching The Curious Incident of the Dog In

:27:37.:27:42.

The Nightime, four minutes in there was a cracking sound and dust came

:27:43.:27:45.

down into the ceiling, and quarter or a third of the ceiling fell down

:27:46.:27:51.

on to the stalls, not the higher circles, it is a fairly steep

:27:52.:27:56.

theatre it fell on to the stalls, there was dust everywhere and people

:27:57.:27:59.

started moving out. Within three minutes the police were on the scene

:28:00.:28:03.

taking things in hand. Some of the injured were taken to the Gielguld

:28:04.:28:12.

theatre and other theatres to be attended to. I have seen a crane

:28:13.:28:16.

going up to the roof of the theatre trying to fix it. Vladimir Putin

:28:17.:28:22.

waited until the very end of his press conference today confirming

:28:23.:28:25.

that the amnesty for Russian prisoners would include the two

:28:26.:28:31.

jailed members of Pussy Riot, and the 30-member crew of the Greenpeace

:28:32.:28:35.

protest ship before dropping a bombshell, that he intended to on

:28:36.:28:42.

freeing the former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky. It is to ease tensions

:28:43.:28:46.

ahead of the winter Olympics in Sochi, what will be the future of

:28:47.:28:50.

Khodorkovsky, once one of the world's richest men. Several weeks

:28:51.:28:57.

after my arrest I was informed that President Putnam Putin had decided I

:28:58.:29:06.

was going to have to slurp gruel for 20 years. The words of Mikhail

:29:07.:29:11.

Khodorkovsky spoken at a German conference for human rights last

:29:12.:29:16.

month titled From Russia With Love. For me, like anybody, it is hard to

:29:17.:29:21.

live in jail and I do not want to die there. He spoke those words in a

:29:22.:29:29.

court in 2010, facing charges of imbeling $20 billion. New charges

:29:30.:29:33.

and a new trial, he had already been in jail for seven years.

:29:34.:29:37.

Khodorkovsky got rich after his bank lent money to a Russian state-owned

:29:38.:29:41.

oil company, these loans were later swapped for underpriced shares, soon

:29:42.:29:44.

worth billions, before he turned 40 he was the richest man in Russia.

:29:45.:29:51.

But in February 2003 Khodorkovsky went on national TV and made

:29:52.:29:57.

allegations of high-level corruption. His fate was sealed. I'm

:29:58.:30:03.

also here as a son of Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

:30:04.:30:37.

circumstances of a humanitarian nature. His mother is ill, and I

:30:38.:30:41.

think that bearing in mind those circumstances it is possible to make

:30:42.:30:46.

that decision and I will soon sign an order about his pardon. With the

:30:47.:30:54.

winter Olympics in Sochi coming up, sceptics may believe that President

:30:55.:30:58.

Putin is concerned about avoiding another boycott of a Russian

:30:59.:31:02.

Olympics. I'm joined by the former Prime Minister who knows Mr

:31:03.:31:06.

Khodorkovsky and was the former Prime Minister of Russia in the

:31:07.:31:12.

early 20000s. Good evening -- 2000s, what calculation do you think that

:31:13.:31:18.

Putnam is making by releasing Mikhail Khodorkovsky? Good evening,

:31:19.:31:23.

I think the decision which Mr Putin announced today is absolutely

:31:24.:31:31.

connected to the up coming Olympic Games, in fact Mr Khodorkovsky

:31:32.:31:38.

should be an announcing his sentence period next July, six or seven

:31:39.:31:42.

months ahead, but Mr Putin made a decision to release, in fact to

:31:43.:31:47.

pardon him, and explaining that there was a special request almost

:31:48.:31:53.

as it was a recognition of guilt, that was absolutely not. This

:31:54.:31:59.

cynical approach of Mr Putin is very clear. Of course everyone who just

:32:00.:32:08.

quite is indifferent to what is going on in Russia, my country,

:32:09.:32:13.

understands that the whole criminal sentence was fabricated by

:32:14.:32:17.

authorities and Mr Putin was just on top of all these special operations.

:32:18.:32:24.

What do you think will happen now to Mr Khodorkovsky, do you think he

:32:25.:32:27.

will try to pursue a political career again, do you think he will

:32:28.:32:31.

stay in Russia, do you think there have been conditions put on his

:32:32.:32:36.

pardon? We don't know whether conditions were put, but in fact it

:32:37.:32:46.

was about his being in politics. He was never in politics, but I think

:32:47.:32:49.

he will continue to do what he did before his arrest, just trying to

:32:50.:32:59.

finance and to support civil society developments, different causes, used

:33:00.:33:05.

to support young people, internet involvement and development of the

:33:06.:33:09.

internet over all Russia. But he was publicly critical of Vladimir Putin.

:33:10.:33:13.

Do you think now he will have to keep his mouth shut? I think he will

:33:14.:33:19.

continue to stay on the critical positions. Of course not in such a

:33:20.:33:26.

harsh manner as we in the real opposition do, but in any case he

:33:27.:33:30.

will continue to stay on this platform. You and he are friends and

:33:31.:33:36.

you spoke on behalf of his oil company, you spoke on behalf of him.

:33:37.:33:40.

He supports you I understand. Do you think that you will call on his

:33:41.:33:44.

support again if indeed you decide to run for office again? We were

:33:45.:33:51.

never friends, Mr Khodorkovsky was one of the biggest and richest

:33:52.:33:56.

people when I was Prime Minister at that time. We had very tough talks

:33:57.:34:01.

when we launched our tax reforms and Mr Khodorkovsky in the beginning was

:34:02.:34:08.

afraid of these reforms. But later understanding that we were very

:34:09.:34:12.

consistent in our pursuing the reform he started to support. And

:34:13.:34:16.

then in the end he became just I would say a supporter of reforms in

:34:17.:34:22.

Russia, but, in fact, I knew what happened at that time and I was

:34:23.:34:28.

witnessing in a court proceedings Mr Khodorkovsky was not guilty and the

:34:29.:34:33.

whole operation was fabricated by the authorities. That is clear for

:34:34.:34:36.

all educated people. Thank you very much for joining us. President

:34:37.:34:45.

Obama's health care reform was designed to extend health insurance

:34:46.:34:48.

to the estimated 15% of Americans without it. But the roll-out has

:34:49.:34:53.

been beset by problems, not least a website proved insufficient to the

:34:54.:34:57.

task. It has suffered more than technical problems, some

:34:58.:35:00.

Republican-run states like Mississippi have rejected the plan

:35:01.:35:03.

but also federal money that will come with it.

:35:04.:35:08.

We travelled across Mississippi asking how Obamacare is being

:35:09.:35:12.

received in one of America's poorest and sickest states. Oak Hill Baptist

:35:13.:35:30.

Church is a little different for the south. It is not the funk or the

:35:31.:35:38.

faith that sets them apart, it is that fried chicken is banned from

:35:39.:35:43.

church socials, in a state where they are evangelical about fried

:35:44.:35:47.

food. # All right Meet Pastor Michael

:35:48.:35:53.

Minor, a man filled with more than just religious passion. He wants to

:35:54.:35:58.

improve his congregation's health in a state where obesity, heart disease

:35:59.:36:03.

and cancer rates are sky high, he sees signing people up to Obamacare

:36:04.:36:11.

as a spiritual duty, a cure for his congregations' hurt.

:36:12.:36:13.

# Are you glad # That God loves you

:36:14.:36:17.

# You, you and you # He loves you.

:36:18.:36:22.

If you don't have health insurance it hurts you three ways, you hurt

:36:23.:36:26.

mentally because you worry about not having insurance, you hurt

:36:27.:36:29.

physically because you are not having the check-ups you need. And

:36:30.:36:33.

spiritually because you are wondering what about your

:36:34.:36:37.

relationship with God, if you are not careful you are start wondering

:36:38.:36:42.

to yourself why would God let me wander into this spot where I have

:36:43.:36:49.

no coverage. There is an aching disappointment here that the

:36:50.:36:52.

Republicans, who control the state, will have nothing to do with

:36:53.:36:56.

Obamacare, which makes it far more difficult for people to sign up.

:36:57.:37:00.

Some see old forces at work. That ain't no news for Mississippi. Why

:37:01.:37:04.

do you think it is? Because of the prejudice that we have in

:37:05.:37:07.

Mississippi, not because of the care, it is because of the black man

:37:08.:37:13.

that is trying to bring this affordable care. And Mississippi has

:37:14.:37:18.

always, I was born in Mississippi, but Mississippi has always been

:37:19.:37:27.

prejudiced. The land where the Blues began, still has its share of woes,

:37:28.:37:32.

in the poorest state in the USA, the cost of health insurance under the

:37:33.:37:36.

President's plan will be higher than in much richer places because of the

:37:37.:37:40.

bad health. One in five don't have health cover at the moment and the

:37:41.:37:43.

state's opposition puts off insurance companies joining in. Only

:37:44.:37:53.

two are interested. One of them is taking its office out on the road,

:37:54.:37:56.

but in the morning we spent with them, not a single person showed any

:37:57.:38:03.

interest. There is overwhelming hostility to Obamacare, practical

:38:04.:38:09.

and politically. It contradicts a free country. Being made to have

:38:10.:38:13.

health insurance? Being made to have everything. I don't see anything

:38:14.:38:16.

wrong with it, it is a good programme, it is the fact you have

:38:17.:38:20.

to have it. I like what I have got, and the price I have got, the prices

:38:21.:38:25.

don't sound good. You think you will pay more? Much more. The hostility

:38:26.:38:30.

of younger and fitter peop could doom Obamacare if not enough sign up

:38:31.:38:34.

by next spring it won't work. We need to be doing what we need to do

:38:35.:38:38.

ourselves, I don't think we need to go through anybody else to say we

:38:39.:38:41.

need health care, if we need health care we need to say for ourself that

:38:42.:38:45.

we need it. Have you got health care? No, Sir. Are you going to sign

:38:46.:38:53.

up? I probably pay the fine. Many doctors won't have anything to do

:38:54.:38:56.

with Obamacare either, or even existing plans for the retired and

:38:57.:38:59.

poor. They say they don't get paid enough. Dr Eric Richardson said

:39:00.:39:04.

patients will end up paying more, doctors will get less and only the

:39:05.:39:07.

insurance companies will get rich. But he also thinks it is plain

:39:08.:39:11.

wrong. You know you are talking about 250 years of the constitution

:39:12.:39:14.

in the United States and now this is being told to the American citizens,

:39:15.:39:22.

you must buy health care, and that's a new law thrust on each individual

:39:23.:39:26.

by the Government. There is a degree of contention there. Would it be

:39:27.:39:29.

great to have coverage for all Americans, is it a good idea to --

:39:30.:39:35.

yes. Is it a good idea to make it a law I'm not so sure. Just as the

:39:36.:39:40.

mighty Mississippi carves its way down the centre of the United

:39:41.:39:44.

States, so Obamacare divides this country politically. It too has the

:39:45.:39:48.

potential and the power to transform the land cape all around it. It will

:39:49.:39:55.

be this President's legacy, and whether it succeeds or fails in

:39:56.:40:00.

states like this will be hugely important for the party and his

:40:01.:40:10.

reputation. This is what a Tea Party, party looks like. A festive

:40:11.:40:14.

gathering to meet state senator, Chris McDaniel, he's taking on his

:40:15.:40:19.

own party's establishment and challenging the Republican senator

:40:20.:40:22.

who have had the job for 30 years. What is so wrong with trying to take

:40:23.:40:25.

care of the health care system without a centralised Government

:40:26.:40:32.

doing it. He's thinking blocking Obamacare and fighting it all the

:40:33.:40:37.

way is a vote-winner. He needs to honour or constitution, just because

:40:38.:40:40.

something is a good idea you don't violate the constitution. You have

:40:41.:40:43.

to ask the question can it be afforded and administered

:40:44.:40:47.

effectively and efficiently, what we have seen it is so structurally

:40:48.:40:52.

unsound and deficient it can't be. Others think conservatives fear a

:40:53.:40:56.

potentially popular programme. Let's be honest, a lot of people on the

:40:57.:41:00.

other side of the political spectrum they do recognise it is something

:41:01.:41:04.

that literally could change a whole generation. Because you want to make

:41:05.:41:08.

something look bad because if it turns out other people like it who

:41:09.:41:15.

will they give credit to. Perhaps the President's plan will end up

:41:16.:41:20.

being praised in America's sickest state. But the south is riven,

:41:21.:41:27.

suspicion, hostility and poverty may combine to put redemption beyond

:41:28.:41:32.

reach for Obamacare. A telescope designed to create the

:41:33.:41:38.

most accurate map of our galaxy and discover unknown planets and

:41:39.:41:44.

asteroids blasted into space. Gaia, the personification of the God that

:41:45.:41:50.

gave birth to the universe, is on a mission to map the stars. And

:41:51.:41:57.

British scientist have been on the forefront. At nine. Ten GMT Gaia

:41:58.:42:05.

took to the skies from French Guiana. Its five-year mission, to

:42:06.:42:13.

unlock the secrets of the Milky Way. At a distance of one. Five million

:42:14.:42:23.

kilometres beyond earth. It will measure the brightness of a billion

:42:24.:42:28.

stars. Creating a three dimensional map of our galaxy and beyond. On

:42:29.:42:33.

board Gaia is the biggest camera ever flown into space, along with

:42:34.:42:37.

two optical telescopes. Together they are capable of measuring the

:42:38.:42:41.

position of the stars extraordinarily accurately. So

:42:42.:42:44.

accurately it could see the equivalent to the width of a human

:42:45.:42:49.

hair at 2,000kms. Except, of course it won't be looking for human hairs,

:42:50.:42:54.

but big stars at even bigger distances. The project, 20 years in

:42:55.:43:00.

the making has been described as the biggest "selfie" in history. I'm

:43:01.:43:05.

joined by the senior scientific adviser in the European Space

:43:06.:43:09.

Agency's directorate in science and robotic exploration, who joins us

:43:10.:43:26.

from the Nethelands. T How will it transform things? As you said we

:43:27.:43:30.

will be measuring a billions stars in the Milky Way extremely

:43:31.:43:33.

accurately, not just the positions but how they move. It aknows us to

:43:34.:43:37.

make a move year, we can run the movie forwards and see how the Milky

:43:38.:43:41.

Way will turn out in billions of years time, and more importantly we

:43:42.:43:44.

can run it backwards and see where all the stars, a billion stars, 1%

:43:45.:43:48.

of all the stars in the galaxy, where they came from. We know the

:43:49.:43:52.

Milky Way didn't form as one thing, it formed out of pieces, out of

:43:53.:43:55.

smaller galaxies that merged together. In that coming together,

:43:56.:44:00.

they left a trail in our Milky Way today, which we can see in the

:44:01.:44:03.

movements of the stars today. Therefore we can trace the history

:44:04.:44:10.

of the Milky Way with Gaia. Is it about archaeology or an endeavour

:44:11.:44:14.

that will make a difference? It is partly archaeology, but in order to

:44:15.:44:18.

be able to run this movie backwards we have to make one of the biggest

:44:19.:44:23.

star at logs ever made. That will enable enormous new discoveries to

:44:24.:44:27.

be made in atrophysics across many domains, we will be discovering lots

:44:28.:44:31.

of new planets going around other stars, because by measure measuring

:44:32.:44:34.

the motions of the stars we will spot some of them that might be

:44:35.:44:37.

wobbling with planets going around them. We will find asteroids in the

:44:38.:44:41.

Solar System, near to us, some on a collision course with the earth.

:44:42.:44:45.

That is good to know about. We will find supernova, exploding stars and

:44:46.:44:49.

things we hadn't thought of at this point. How likely is it that we will

:44:50.:44:55.

find signs of life? Well Gaia is not designed to do that, what it will do

:44:56.:44:59.

is find lots of new planetary systems, planets going around stars,

:45:00.:45:04.

elsewhere in the Milky Way. Those will become prime targets for

:45:05.:45:07.

follow-up observations with other observe trees, either on the ground

:45:08.:45:14.

or in 2018 the James Webb telescope, a big problem we are working on with

:45:15.:45:22.

NASA. When there will be the first results? The satellite is on its way

:45:23.:45:27.

to a point one. Five million kilometres away. We will see numbers

:45:28.:45:31.

soon to check the instruments out. Anything it discovers in the first

:45:32.:45:34.

few months, rapidly changing or varying objects we will have those

:45:35.:45:37.

out straightaway. They will be open to the community. The big catalogue

:45:38.:45:42.

and final result will take us a full five years plus some data

:45:43.:45:46.

processing, it is a colossal amount of data we take. We have to analyse

:45:47.:45:52.

it all in one go to make one big map of the galaxy we live in. It is a

:45:53.:45:57.

little while coming, we have waited 20 years already, we can wait a few

:45:58.:46:00.

more. That's all for tonight, join

:46:01.:46:04.

Victoria for our last show of 2013 tomorrow night. Before we go Marylin

:46:05.:46:09.

Monroe may have been brought back tonight for Christmas to advertise

:46:10.:46:15.

an iconic perfume, Elvis Presley may have done better, his voice coming

:46:16.:46:20.

from the mouth of a Canadian teenager. He has been a superstar

:46:21.:46:26.

and a media dearlying. # When those blue snowflakes

:46:27.:46:32.

# Start falling # That's when those blue

:46:33.:46:45.

# Memories are calling # You'll be doing all right with

:46:46.:46:51.

Christmas so white # But I'll be blue, blue, blue

:46:52.:47:00.

Christmas A cold night tonight, with showers, it may be icy for the

:47:01.:47:05.

morning rush hour, generally a dry and bright start to Friday with

:47:06.:47:09.

sunshine. But another batch of wet and windy weather will come sweeping

:47:10.:47:13.

across the UK. Looking like a fairly missable afternoon across Northern

:47:14.:47:15.

Ireland

:47:16.:47:16.

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