08/01/2014 Newsnight


08/01/2014

Jeremy Paxman looks at reaction to the Mark Duggan verdict, interest rates, China and Japan dispute, Men's Fashion Week, and Egypt's answer to Jon Stewart.


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Transcript


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the well What the well dressed man should be wearing about town. Don't

:00:21.:01:17.

worry what they say, ignore them. When a man from Tottenham was shot

:01:18.:01:22.

dead by the police in August 2011, it set off serious rioting which

:01:23.:01:25.

caused the whole nation to ask serious questions about itself. The

:01:26.:01:30.

conclusion of the jury at his infest today that he was lawfully killed

:01:31.:01:34.

has infuriated his family. The jury's finding wasn't unanimous, but

:01:35.:01:40.

its decision that the police acted lawfully, despite the fact that

:01:41.:01:44.

Duggan had thrown away a gun he was carrying before the police opened

:01:45.:01:48.

fire set off fury in court, which has also been vented on the streets

:01:49.:01:58.

of Tottenham. What's the mood there? There is certainly anger and real

:01:59.:02:02.

shock in Tottenham, but actually things are quite calm, that is

:02:03.:02:06.

partly to do with the weather, the terrible rain here has driven people

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inside. But also that Mark Duggan's family want things to stay calm.

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There was a scuffle a couple of hours ago between a journalist and

:02:16.:02:18.

one of the supporters of Mark Duggan's family. I overheard Mark

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Duggan's mother this really aren't isn't helping, making clear she

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wanted things to stay calm. Signs that the anger is not yet going to

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boil over. There is a lot of anger is there? In terms of what people

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have been saying, in terms of young people they have been expressing a

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lot of anger. But you don't get the sense that they really know what to

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do with that anger. Parents of children that live locally have also

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been expressing their fear because of the conclusion of the jury. One

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of the mothers of one of the children here said to me, what does

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this mean for our children's rights now. They already feel, many of

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these parents, that their children are already being victimised by the

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police through stop and search. There is a fear here that this could

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further undermine their children's rights here locally. That was

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expressed. In terms of what the family want to do now, they have

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been talking about how they want to meet with the Independent Police

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Complaints Commisssion. They are calling for a vigorous review of the

:03:24.:03:27.

case and they want to meet with MPs. But they have rejected an invitation

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by the Police to meet. You get the sense that the family are exhausted

:03:32.:03:35.

and they want to regroup and work out what to do next. Jim Reid has

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been following today's developments, his report contains flash

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photography. A police assassination, or a tragic but justified shooting.

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Today by a majority of 8-2 a jury delivered its verdict. Mark Duggan

:03:54.:03:57.

was lawfully killed by armed officers in the summer of 2011.

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Crucially they decided the 29-year-old was carrying a gun, but

:04:03.:04:10.

threw it away before he was shot. The reaction was furious. His mother

:04:11.:04:14.

was led out of court in tears. On the streets her supporters shouted

:04:15.:04:29.

"murderers" drowning out a police statemen

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Mark Duggan has travelling through Tottenham in a minicab on August 4th

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2011. Police were convinced he had picked up a gun and was planning to

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use it. They performed a hard stop, pulling alongside and drawing their

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weapons. The jury they inquest had to decide what happened next. They

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were asked a series of questions. Well the jury would have been

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looking at whether the use of force by the officer was reasonable and

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proportionate to the threat posed by Duggan. To decide that they had to

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look at whether at the time the police officer shot Duggan he had an

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honestly held belief that Duggan was armed. Now the question of whether

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he was in fact armed relevant but separate to that question. That is

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really what the jury was looking at. That is why we get the slightly

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unusual version of lawful killing when the jury still found that he,

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on the balance of probeabilities was not armed at the time he was shot.

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The family have always breastled -- bristled at the suggestion that Mark

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Duggan was a known gangster or a direct threat to officers that day.

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Speaking outside court they said the family would continue to fight for

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justice. The majority of people in this country know Mark was executed,

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he was executed, we will fight until we have no breath in our body for

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justice for Mark, his children and all of those other deaths in custody

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that have nothing for. We are not giving up, no justice, no peace. But

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despite today's verdict the inquest itself still raised some tough

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questions for the authorities, in particular, in the days after the

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shooting, how did the story come out that Duggan was killed in a

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firefight with police when it is now clear he never fired a weapon? That

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accusation helps trigger a protest march to Tottenham Police Station,

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which later led to violence. Evidence given in court suggest the

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police watchdog, the IPCC wrongly briefed journalists, and let the

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story run uncorrected for days. To put out all this misinformation, to

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put out the idea that there was a shootout, when they absolutely knew

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there wasn't a shootout. To refusing to to the family home to inform

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them, these are the only reasons, the sole reasons we went to

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Tottenham Police Station. Had they done the things they were supposed

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to have done we wouldn't have gone to Tottenham Police Station.

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Tottenham, there wouldn't have been a riot there. I would imagine there

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wouldn't have been riots in all those other areas of London where

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there were riots. Mark Duggan's aunt arrived at Tottenham Police Station

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this evening to speak to the media gathered there. It is 888 days since

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a shooting which triggered the worst riots in a generation, 115 days

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since the start of the inquest, it will take many more until some of

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the residents of this part of London will accept today's verdict.

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Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley of the Metropolitan Police is here,

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you saw him in that report. A police officer has to make a spur of the

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moment judgment. Do you think it is fair that he subsequently, or she

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subsequently has to go through a judicial process of the kind we saw

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today? It has to be fair doesn't it. Police use force, that has to be

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scrutinised, if it is lethal process a judicial process has to be right.

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Now that process has determined that at the time he was shot he wasn't

:08:40.:08:44.

holding a gun? That process was assessing those split second

:08:45.:08:46.

decisions you have mentioned. So in a few moments, split seconds, Mark

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Duggan leaves the car, the jury have concluded, threw the weapon and was

:08:54.:08:56.

shot. They haven't given the detailed gaps in that sequence. They

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have concluded the speed of those events that the officer's judgment

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was reasonable. When people look at the Woolich incident, through the

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CCTV, the speed of the events is very clear, and ten ordinary women

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and men from London have come to the conclusion it was reasonable. The

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police shot an unarmed man? The jury concluded he PCed up a firearm, got

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out of the car with the firearm, and the officer reasonably concluded he

:09:24.:09:27.

needed to fire. But they did shoot, they shot an unarmed man? Unarmed

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man suggest he never had a weapon or any suggestion of it, he was getting

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out of the car with a weapon. He didn't have a weapon at the time he

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was shot? He had thrown it just before, clearly. The jury concluded

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that the police did not make the best use of the intelligence

:09:44.:09:47.

veilable to them, that was an overwhelming thing? That wasn't

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exactly what they said. One of the things here we should respect the

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decision of the ten men and women on the jury, they said they wished

:09:57.:10:00.

there was more intelligence work done in advance that might have

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changed the course of the events. They had no suggestions what that

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could be. I wish we could have had more intelligence to change that

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picture. I'm not sure what that would have been. You say you want to

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talk to the family? Yes. What do you want to say to them? I want to meet

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with them, they are very upset with the police and very angry, there is

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a whole range of obvious reasons for that. If it would help I would like

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to meet with them, they don't want to meet with us and I understand

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that. You must have some message the rest of us can share that you want

:10:30.:10:35.

to convey to them? It is all very well expressing condolences on

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television, but if they want to meet face-to-face I will meet with them.

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When you read the statement today and you were spat at and shouted

:10:45.:10:48.

down, there is a lot of anger out there? It is a massively symbolic

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event, when we look back at 2011, that is not surprising. Your report

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overstates that. Over the last two years the confidence of Londoners in

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the Metropolitan Police has grown. The proportion is not as bad as you

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present it in your picture. Of course there are communities where

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there are tensions and difficulties, we are keen to improve, that we have

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done a lot of work on stop and search in recent years. One of the

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messages for me is about confidence in how we take on gang and gun

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crime. We run thousands of firearm operations a year and very few shots

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are fired, our officers are cautious. That chant you heard "no

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justice no peace" that is rather chilling isn't it? It is impossible

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not to have imthough with a family who have lost a loved one. That is

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completely understandable. That is why I want to meet with them. A jury

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have looked at the facts and concluded this was lawful killing

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and the police firearms operation was professional. My guests are with

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me, Diane abbot and a family friend of the Duggans. How worried are you

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tonight? I'm not worried, I don't think we will see disorder. First of

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all, our sympathy to the Duggan family who have lost a loved one, we

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can't forget that. We have to remember one of the reasons why the

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Duggan shooting was like a blue touch paper was because of the

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underlying tensions between police and members of the community. You

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have to address those issues. Do you share the Assistant Commissioner's

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view that relations actually have got bette On a very low base they

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have got better. I do not share. Even though they have done work

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around stop and search as they have said they might have reduced the

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number of stop and search they are doing. They are still targeting

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young black men aged between 15-40 based on nothing other than their

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colour. I got stopped today going to the Sky studio, I was held up for 45

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minutes, I was stopped and searched and they took my car away. I was

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there with my nephew who got angry. As a consequence they then gave me

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back my key and allowed me to go on my way, 45 minutes it took. Things

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may have got better, it is a low base, there is still a huge amount

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of tension around issues like stop and search, deaths in custody and

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the way the police talk to people. Unless we address these issues we

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can't say we have learned the lesson of Mark Duggan's shooting. Going

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back to scentia Jared, Joy Gardener, and the latest one in Brixton, these

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are cases of black men, and black men and women dying at the hands of

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the police. Unfortunate circumstances, but we still don't

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see justice coming, and now Mark is in a long line of this. We must be

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straight here. The people weren't rioting because of what happened to

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mark, but because it was a systematic thing they were seeing

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happening, here we go, another one happening, what will happen here?

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People will be saying I told you so. I'm calling for people to stay calm,

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and say to people you may still rightly have an angry head, and I

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have one. Ten ordinary Londoners came to a conclusion today that he

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was lawfully killed? I don't think that politicians should second-guess

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juries, I'm not doing that. I say the underlying issues remain and the

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police have to deal with them. There is progress, my borough commander in

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Hackney has brought down stop and search. But there is a long way to

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go for black and Muslim kids on the street. How do you go about

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improving relations? Give him a word claim --! The commander in Haringey

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is a very good policeman, and I believe with people like him in

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charge, he's going to make, he will make a difference. Unfortunately's

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not going to reap the reward of his success because 40, 50 years of

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being the victims of stop and search will take many more years for us to

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gain any sort of confidence in any police, no matter how good they are.

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As good as Victor is, he will not reap the benefit until he's some way

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away. Stop him being promoted? There has been improvements, in order to

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mend the relationship people have to see the police behaving more fairly,

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currently they don't believe the police behave fairly to all

:15:38.:15:40.

communities. A charm offensive, they have to be out there meeting the

:15:41.:15:43.

community, in the community, not for us to come into your ivory tower at

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our choosing and our own expense, we need to turn things around and see

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our police in our communities, not being afraid to walk the streets and

:15:54.:15:56.

engage and interact with local people. You heard that chant today

:15:57.:16:01.

"no justice no peace" is that a widespread feeling? It is a

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widespread feeling. This isn't going to turn to any violence, we will

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leave no stone unturned, that is what it means. It means we will not

:16:11.:16:13.

sit back here and accept something, we will see what, taking all the

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intelligence and information and see what we can do from here legally. I

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do not foresee another 2011 tension happening here. People have now

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moved on from that even though this is still a backlash from those

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times. I still believe that we have got good intentioned people, good

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senior officers in Haringey, at least I can speak for Haringey that

:16:38.:16:42.

could possibly make a difference. No justice no peace is not a new chant.

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It is a chant of 20 years old and more. Because these are not new

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issues, and they still need to be resolved. Do you want to give your

:16:51.:16:55.

response to those? I would like to make a couple of quick points. The

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positive things about the local borough commander is a very good

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man, he's inviting young people to set his diary for a day and see the

:17:05.:17:08.

world from their perspective. There is a real commitment to working and

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seeing communities in their way. The second thing is confronting gun

:17:13.:17:16.

crime in London, 50 people have been shot dead in three-and-a-half years

:17:17.:17:19.

requires us to confront armed criminal, we do, that we try to put

:17:20.:17:23.

them in prison for long periods and take the weapons off the streets. We

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are running 3,000 firearms operations a year, my officers,

:17:27.:17:30.

professional and careful fire shots once or twice, that sort of

:17:31.:17:33.

information needs to be more public so people can have confidence. Let

:17:34.:17:37.

me finish. In the end... So people can have confidence in what we. Do

:17:38.:17:41.

the last point about stop and search, we are doing 25% less stop

:17:42.:17:45.

and search than a couple of years ago. It is more targeted against

:17:46.:17:49.

criminal, and more effective because we are arresting for people. People

:17:50.:17:53.

like Ken are involved in stop and search who vet the forms we were

:17:54.:18:00.

doing. I think the incident earlier was about a person being prosecuted

:18:01.:18:08.

over lack of insurance. You can only confront gang crime and gun crime

:18:09.:18:11.

with the consent of the community, that is why you have to learn the

:18:12.:18:16.

lessons of Mark Duggan, it is community consent.

:18:17.:18:23.

It is a nice sexy outfit for Men's Fashion Week. I love T I -- it, I

:18:24.:18:32.

would like tips on it myself. The people at the Bank of England who

:18:33.:18:37.

decide how much it is to borrow money and how much we can earn on

:18:38.:18:40.

savings we have will announce tomorrow on altering interest rates.

:18:41.:18:45.

Recent history has been a story of "steady as you go". The Governor of

:18:46.:18:50.

the Bank of England has already said that interest rates shouldn't go up

:18:51.:18:53.

from their current low levels until unemployment is below 7%. The gossip

:18:54.:18:58.

is now he will drop the target to 6. 5% so money stays cheap. But is he

:18:59.:19:16.

right? For more than five years now we have been living with the fear.

:19:17.:19:19.

The fear is that the economy's totering on the brink -- teetering

:19:20.:19:28.

on the brink, one false move and we could plunge into the abyss. When

:19:29.:19:37.

the Bank of England first cut official rates they weren't meant to

:19:38.:19:42.

stay there for long. I want to get back to a situation where interest

:19:43.:19:45.

rates return to levels where savers can earn healthy returns on their

:19:46.:19:50.

savings' accounts. Now, amid a surge in business orders, house prices and

:19:51.:19:54.

investment, no rate rise in sight. For the first time in a long time

:19:55.:19:58.

you don't have to be an optimist to see the glass is half full. The

:19:59.:20:04.

recovery has finally taken hold. The bank's been anxious to reassure City

:20:05.:20:08.

investors it won't raise rates as long as unemployment is above 7%.

:20:09.:20:12.

But unemployment has fallen so fast it is now expected to cut that

:20:13.:20:17.

threshold to 6. 5. Here is why the City fears a rise in interest rates,

:20:18.:20:21.

institutions there hold Government bonds worth hundreds of billions of

:20:22.:20:27.

pounds, who wants a Government bond paying a tiny fixed rate of interest

:20:28.:20:31.

when rates are about to go up, not as many as before. With fewer buyers

:20:32.:20:35.

that can pull prices down, costing city institutions that hold the

:20:36.:20:39.

bonds billions. Should the rest of us share the City's fear, or could

:20:40.:20:44.

the rise help more people than it harms? If official rates rise by 2.

:20:45.:20:50.

5% then the number of mortgage borrowers spending over a third of

:20:51.:20:52.

their income on the mortgage would double to 16%. To cover the higher

:20:53.:20:56.

repayments half of all mortgage holders would have to earn more or

:20:57.:21:00.

cut their spending. But hang on, if you are a glass half full person

:21:01.:21:04.

that means half of all mortgage holders could withstand a 2. 5% rise

:21:05.:21:08.

in interest rates without even cutting their spending. It ignores

:21:09.:21:12.

the many on fixed rate mortgages who would be protected from rising rates

:21:13.:21:17.

and assumes no rise in incomes. If incomes do rise it will look a lot

:21:18.:21:22.

less scary down there. The Bank of England, the politicians are all

:21:23.:21:26.

focussing on the minority of the population who have got massive

:21:27.:21:29.

mortgages. That is undoubted, the amount of mortgages in the system is

:21:30.:21:35.

huge. However, three-quarters of the population either have no mortgage

:21:36.:21:41.

or a very small one. What's often forgotten is fewer than a third of

:21:42.:21:45.

households actually have a mortgage. Most of us don't worry about rate

:21:46.:21:53.

rises. A poll last month showed nearly a third believe an interest

:21:54.:21:55.

rate hike would leave them better off. Another third say the change

:21:56.:21:59.

will make little differences to their finances. Everyone in the

:22:00.:22:03.

country will benefit directly because higher interest rates will

:22:04.:22:07.

raise the value of our currency, it will reduce the cost of imports,

:22:08.:22:11.

therefore the cost of living will plummet, everyone will benefit from

:22:12.:22:16.

that and over half the population who have very little debt or no debt

:22:17.:22:19.

at all will actually directly benefit as well because they will

:22:20.:22:25.

get more bangs for their buck from their deposit accounts. Right now

:22:26.:22:30.

the markets are betting the Bank of England won't plunge and raise

:22:31.:22:33.

interest rates any time this year, but with every bit of positive

:22:34.:22:37.

economic data, the case for raising them gets stronger and the case for

:22:38.:22:44.

lowering gets weaker. Maybe the Bank of England will realise that the

:22:45.:22:48.

fear of economic doom is just an illusion. Ever since Otto von

:22:49.:22:59.

Bismarck predicted over 30 years before the First World War began

:23:00.:23:03.

that the next war in Europe would be set off by some damn fool dispute in

:23:04.:23:07.

the Balkan, statesmen have been careful not to consider any

:23:08.:23:11.

territorial dispute insignificant. Right now Japan and China are in

:23:12.:23:17.

fierce conflict over a group of un inhabited islands in the Pacific.

:23:18.:23:22.

Tension is rising with much name-calling and the like. Is it

:23:23.:23:27.

really possible that hostilities could break out over such an

:23:28.:23:35.

apparently pifling disPUCHLT we have ambassadors from both countries and

:23:36.:23:38.

they have agreed to talk to us separately. Firstly we look at the

:23:39.:23:42.

score. The private act of a Chinese citizen

:23:43.:23:49.

or blatant act of military. When the shrine was visited last month, where

:23:50.:23:55.

a handful of war criminals is commemorated among hundreds of other

:23:56.:23:57.

veteran, China was furious. If halfy potter was good enough for

:23:58.:24:19.

him, it was good enough for the Japanese counterpart!

:24:20.:24:31.

If the Horcrux is a powerful dangerous object, then the shrine is

:24:32.:24:39.

hardly the only one in the battle of alleged good and evil. Far from

:24:40.:24:44.

Japan's southern tip, a scattering of uninhabited rocks juts out of the

:24:45.:24:51.

east China sea. Japan calls them Senkaku, in China they are known as

:24:52.:24:57.

Diaoyu, they are a few square miles in total but loaded with strategic

:24:58.:25:00.

significance, close to shipping lanes and shipping grounds, and

:25:01.:25:04.

offering the tantalising promise of oil and gas. Japan controls them,

:25:05.:25:10.

both sides claim them, they shadow each other with evident mistrust. In

:25:11.:25:15.

November China added a new potentionally dimension, an air

:25:16.:25:20.

identification zone over most of the east China sea, overlapping Japan's

:25:21.:25:26.

own similar zone. Chinese and Japanese jets have been flying in

:25:27.:25:31.

and out ever since. Japan is sweeping forward, with more and more

:25:32.:25:34.

troops landing at Sianing coy pushing into the interior. There is

:25:35.:25:38.

nothing particularly new about this naked hostility, Japan's invasion in

:25:39.:25:44.

the 1930s left deep scars in the Chinese psyche. The Prime Minister

:25:45.:25:49.

says he wants dialogue not confrontation. But he wants to amend

:25:50.:26:01.

Japan's post-war pacification. He's sure they can gain understanding if

:26:02.:26:07.

they explain the administration's proactive passism. -- pacifism. It

:26:08.:26:16.

is the kind of talk guaranteed to fuel Beijing's fears. China, of

:26:17.:26:24.

course, has its own naval ambition, its first aircraft carrier has

:26:25.:26:29.

completed its first maiden voyage. TRANSLATION: If Japan doesn't take

:26:30.:26:35.

it as a guide and stick to peaceful development, they will lead Japan in

:26:36.:26:39.

a dangerous and wrong way. This is a disaster rather than blessing to

:26:40.:26:43.

regional peace. The irony is that all this takes place against a

:26:44.:26:48.

backdrop of growing economic interdependence. Quite simply the

:26:49.:26:54.

two countries need each other. But in 2012 Japanese businesses were

:26:55.:26:59.

attacked across China after the Japanese Government bought three of

:27:00.:27:02.

the disputed islands from their private owner. For all their ties,

:27:03.:27:07.

it seems history and geography keep getting in the way. We will talk to

:27:08.:27:12.

the Chinese Ambassador in a moment. First his Japanese counterpart,

:27:13.:27:19.

Keiichi Hayashi. These islands aren't inhabited, why not give them

:27:20.:27:23.

to the Chinese? It is a matter of principle. It is a matter of

:27:24.:27:30.

sovereignty. I know the British also have the sovereignty issue we

:27:31.:27:41.

acquired these islands peacefully and lawfully. In the late 19th

:27:42.:27:52.

century. Since then we have held the sovereignty for 120 years. China

:27:53.:27:59.

never challenged it until 1970. But is it really worth jeopardising the

:28:00.:28:02.

security of the whole of that part of the world, and possibly the world

:28:03.:28:06.

itself. I think the question should be directed to the Chinese. We have

:28:07.:28:10.

held the effective control over the islands very peacefully and in

:28:11.:28:15.

accordance with the international law. They are challenging the status

:28:16.:28:23.

quo by force and coercion. It is completely against the international

:28:24.:28:27.

order. Isn't what's really happening here that Japan is seeking to

:28:28.:28:33.

re-establish a military identity? No, that's not quite true. It is

:28:34.:28:40.

true you are seeking constitutional reform in your country? The track

:28:41.:28:47.

record of the Japanese commitment to peace has been very strong and the

:28:48.:28:56.

Prime Minister himself has made is it very clear that he has no

:28:57.:29:04.

intention of changing the core tenets of pacifism. Why change the

:29:05.:29:13.

constitution by changing it in the use of force and changing arms? We

:29:14.:29:19.

are not looking at using force. He wants to change the constitution? As

:29:20.:29:23.

I said, there could be some debate over the constitution, but the Prime

:29:24.:29:27.

Minister, as I said, made it very clear that he has no intention of

:29:28.:29:35.

changing the core tenets of pacifism. Over the islands what has

:29:36.:29:40.

been happening is the utmost self-restraint on the part of the

:29:41.:29:49.

Japanese, while the Chinese have continuously been trying to change

:29:50.:29:56.

the status quo by force and coercion, they are very much

:29:57.:29:59.

concerned about it, it is a dangerous provocation, but as has

:30:00.:30:07.

been mentioned, I think they have to abide by the rule of law, rather

:30:08.:30:12.

than resorting to the use of force and coercion. Do you think it helps

:30:13.:30:18.

things to use childish abuse, comparing people to to Voldemort for

:30:19.:30:32.

example? I don't want to refer to "he who must not be named"! I only

:30:33.:30:39.

responded to the Chinese groundless and baseless accusation. The major

:30:40.:30:47.

thrust of my message earlier is so call for dialogue at the top level.

:30:48.:30:54.

Simply because we have some differences in our views. You say

:30:55.:30:58.

there is nothing to talk about? How can there be dialogue if you think

:30:59.:31:01.

there is nothing to discuss? There is a difference of view, so we ought

:31:02.:31:07.

to sit down and talk and the problem is not our sovereignty. But the

:31:08.:31:15.

problem is more to do with the continuous Chinese provocation. We

:31:16.:31:20.

need to sit down and talk. To sort it out. Thank you very much. We can

:31:21.:31:28.

pick up on some of those points with the Chinese Ambassador, Liu Xiao

:31:29.:31:32.

Ming. How are you? Fine Jeremy. Thank you very much for coming in.

:31:33.:31:38.

So good to see you again. Sorry! Now how serious do you think this is?

:31:39.:31:44.

Very serious. This is a very serious issue. The Japanese Prime Minister's

:31:45.:31:50.

visit to the shrine in our view is not a small matter. It concerns how

:31:51.:31:56.

the Japanese face up to their history of aggression. But we care

:31:57.:32:03.

more about how, I would quote Winston Churchill's words, those who

:32:04.:32:07.

fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. So we're

:32:08.:32:13.

concerned that they do not face up to their disgraceful record of

:32:14.:32:17.

aggression. What will happen for the future? You raised this question of

:32:18.:32:21.

the visit to the shrine. There have been over prime ministerial visits

:32:22.:32:32.

to that since the war, and to 20-something of them the Chinese

:32:33.:32:37.

raised no question at all? That is not right, it was not until 1978

:32:38.:32:47.

when 14 A-class war criminals moved in, and in 1985 the Japanese Prime

:32:48.:32:52.

Minister you know together with the whole cabinet, with the shrine,

:32:53.:32:59.

launched a protest. Since then we have launched countless protests to

:33:00.:33:03.

it. Let's look at the islands, why have you suddenly asserted control

:33:04.:33:08.

of the air for example above them. Why have you suddenly done that?

:33:09.:33:13.

That was a good question. Why this matter crops up so suddenly, it has

:33:14.:33:18.

been very peaceful for the past 40 years. First of all I would say this

:33:19.:33:23.

island has been, to China, has been part of Chinese territory since

:33:24.:33:29.

ancient times. It was not until 1895 when China lost a war with Japan.

:33:30.:33:36.

They seized illegally, but according to Cairo Declaration, the

:33:37.:33:41.

proclaimation, it was ordered territory seized illegally by Japan

:33:42.:33:47.

should be returned to China. That was agreed by British leaders,

:33:48.:33:52.

American leaders and other leaders. When was the Cairo Declaration?

:33:53.:33:58.

1945. It is nothing to do, you say, with natural resources which may be

:33:59.:34:02.

connected to these islands, or may be available from these islands? It

:34:03.:34:06.

was about sovereignty. It is about, you know, territory. Let me finish

:34:07.:34:14.

about why it has come up. When we normalised relations in 1972 both

:34:15.:34:18.

leaders agreed you know there is a dispute over the islands. We should

:34:19.:34:26.

shelf the difference, in 1978 when there was a visit to Japan and asked

:34:27.:34:32.

the question about the islands, the Prime Minister said there was a

:34:33.:34:36.

dispute with Japan, but I think we can shelf it for the time being. The

:34:37.:34:41.

future generations will be wiser than us. We agreed to put it on the

:34:42.:34:46.

shelf. But the Japanese want to change the status quo. In the past

:34:47.:34:51.

few years what did they do? They tried to nationalise this island,

:34:52.:34:54.

they want to you know purchase this island by their Government. How far

:34:55.:34:58.

are you prepared to take this dispute? How First of all we asked

:34:59.:35:05.

them, they have to face facts that we have a dispute over this island.

:35:06.:35:11.

They even refuse to recognise there is a dispute between the two

:35:12.:35:14.

countries. Implicitly the ambassador over there a second or two ago was

:35:15.:35:18.

talking about the need for dialogue, that is an implicit recognition that

:35:19.:35:27.

there is a disagreement over it? In fact it was the Japanese Prime

:35:28.:35:31.

Minister who shut the door of dialogue between China and Japan. He

:35:32.:35:36.

overturned the fundamental foundations of our two countries.

:35:37.:35:41.

How would you expect China to agree to talk to him when he refused to

:35:42.:35:47.

repent on the war crimes that the Japanese did to Chinese people. This

:35:48.:35:53.

is not only the case for China. Korean President has also refused to

:35:54.:35:58.

meet the Japanese Prime Minister because of his behaviour on history

:35:59.:36:04.

issues. Thank you very much indeed. Now, doubtless it won't have escaped

:36:05.:36:09.

your notice that this is Men's Fashion Week in London. All sorts of

:36:10.:36:13.

figures and various degrees of beliefs are tossed around to

:36:14.:36:16.

demonstrate how important the fashion business is to the British

:36:17.:36:20.

economy. For the rest it is an opportunity to ask in tones of "who

:36:21.:36:29.

on earth would wear this stuff"! Someone who would is Nimrod Kamer,

:36:30.:36:32.

we asked him to tell us what he found interesting this year.

:36:33.:36:37.

I'm a fashionable man because my socks are yellow, my socks are

:36:38.:36:44.

knitted and my tie is pink. This is Men's Fashion Week, my guide! When

:36:45.:36:51.

you meet a fashionista always compliment them and say you look

:36:52.:36:57.

ridiculously fab and "fabosh. You look ridiculously fab, any

:36:58.:37:01.

interesting socks, all black? All black, my underwear is white. Got to

:37:02.:37:12.

keep it a little spicy. Live long and proper. FOMO Fear of missing

:37:13.:37:21.

out. YOLT You only live twist, James Bond. In this magazine, Zachary

:37:22.:37:30.

Ching. Selfridges. The only way to get on in life is come early and sit

:37:31.:37:33.

next to the celebrities you know will be sitting right here! Do you

:37:34.:37:38.

mind if I just pick a card out and sit instead of them to sit next to

:37:39.:37:45.

celebrity friends. During the show? Yeah Not exactly. Are you going on

:37:46.:37:59.

the catwalk in a few minutes? Is this like a nice sexy outfit for

:38:00.:38:07.

Men's Fashion Week? Love it! That's lovely Thank you. It is the same as

:38:08.:38:15.

the thing, the theme, this is the theme. Yes it is. #mensfashionweek.

:38:16.:38:39.

I'm going to get inside. After the show ended I went down to see the

:38:40.:38:43.

next collection, when disaster struck. There is an accident, an

:38:44.:38:59.

accident. What happened is during Oliver Spencer show a pipe broke

:39:00.:39:04.

lose so all the water. The delay gave me a chance to accidentally

:39:05.:39:09.

bump into fashion heavyweights. What do you do day-to-day? I model and

:39:10.:39:16.

I'm an ambassador for LCM. Oh yeah, I think they mentioned you as one of

:39:17.:39:22.

the top models, you are not Gandhi. I am David Gandy, yes! . The show

:39:23.:39:33.

got back on track, and garish socks were on display, "ridic". Can I see

:39:34.:39:41.

your socks? A Christmas present from my wife, all I wanted was socks and

:39:42.:39:45.

a wallet, nice clothes that fit, that is all you want. Shall we do a

:39:46.:39:57.

quick selfie and a humble selfie! Any tips for myself, I'm not

:39:58.:40:03.

sexually defined, a-sexual. Tidy this bit, I like that you have tried

:40:04.:40:08.

to accessorise, if I was you, I would get the bottom half, change

:40:09.:40:11.

the tie, this is nice but I would probably change that. The jacket is

:40:12.:40:18.

nice as well. You look great, man. My final piece of advice f you see

:40:19.:40:25.

designer gloats unattended YOLT! The man has great future on this

:40:26.:40:29.

programme. A court in Cairo adjourned the trial of the ousted

:40:30.:40:36.

President Mohammed Morsi until February. He's facing murder

:40:37.:40:44.

charges. The event that people hoped would change a huge country in the

:40:45.:40:49.

in the rob world to democracy has not brought. A heart surgeon saw the

:40:50.:40:56.

need and opportunity for satire, he began broadcasting a show from his

:40:57.:41:02.

back room on YouTube, it soon had an enormous audience and broadcast on

:41:03.:41:07.

mainstream TV. He has won awards and been on shows like the Daily Show

:41:08.:41:12.

with Jon Stewart. I spoke to him from Cairo, I asked him if he

:41:13.:41:17.

thought it was harder to do satire? It is harder to do satire for the

:41:18.:41:22.

sole reason that it is a little bit sentence out there. There have been

:41:23.:41:29.

families that have, there have been family feuds and people, and

:41:30.:41:35.

divorces and even families disowning their own children because of

:41:36.:41:40.

political differences. So it is no wonder that maybe comedy will not be

:41:41.:41:44.

welcomed right now. I think it is more social than anything else.

:41:45.:41:48.

There are people who say sometimes things get too serious for satire.

:41:49.:41:54.

Well yes, it is very difficult to carry on your show and make people

:41:55.:41:58.

smile when there is too much tension, too much violence and too

:41:59.:42:05.

much panic in the air. I think people, to accept satire they need

:42:06.:42:09.

to be relaxed. If there is a mood of panic and anger it makes you

:42:10.:42:15.

accepting logically, let alone satire, a very difficult task. Was

:42:16.:42:20.

it easier to do satire when you had President Morsi in power, would it

:42:21.:42:26.

have been easier under Mubarak or someone? I think under Mubarak that

:42:27.:42:35.

door was not even there. Under the Military Council and after it with

:42:36.:42:42.

Morsi that door was open and ajar, it was still difficult under the

:42:43.:42:47.

Muslim Brotherhood with different kind of difficulties, or different

:42:48.:42:52.

levels of difficulties. Now, you know, there is a lot of powers at

:42:53.:42:58.

hand, and I think people are going more and more restless and tense

:42:59.:43:02.

about what is happening. That is the main difficulty, the main challenge

:43:03.:43:06.

we are facing is how to make people laugh and smile. What do you think

:43:07.:43:15.

your job is? My job is to make people accept criticism with a more

:43:16.:43:21.

relaxed mood. To hopefully tell people that it is OK to make fun of

:43:22.:43:27.

ourselves, it is not a bad thing to make fun of the Government even if

:43:28.:43:31.

we are on the same side, because it is a much nicer way for freedom of

:43:32.:43:38.

expression than throwing Molotov cocktails at each other. It could,

:43:39.:43:42.

couldn't it, encourage a very bleak view of what is happening

:43:43.:43:45.

politically in your country or any other country where a satirist is at

:43:46.:43:51.

work. You know, first of all, I have to say that things in Cairo is not

:43:52.:43:57.

that bad. You know in the news they bring only the clashes, people still

:43:58.:44:01.

go to work, we still go to cafes and restaurants and cinemas. Of course

:44:02.:44:05.

there is some turmoil in the streets, but you know life goes on

:44:06.:44:15.

and again I think the challenge that we have is bringing the smile to

:44:16.:44:19.

people. Because it is very difficult to tell people to smile and laugh

:44:20.:44:24.

about yourself and make money of yourself when they just want -- make

:44:25.:44:28.

fun of yourself when they just want you to be on their side

:44:29.:44:33.

unconditionally. Is it a smile based on base pair or jaundice or

:44:34.:44:38.

optimisim about the future? Well, it is a little bit of both, because if

:44:39.:44:45.

you can make people laugh about what they go through, that in itself is

:44:46.:44:49.

optimisim. It is reason enough to be an optimist, you know. But if there

:44:50.:44:54.

are certain people in the media, or certain people in the political

:44:55.:45:01.

scene that don't even want that to happen, that doesn't give a good

:45:02.:45:06.

outlook. So I think you need to continue to pound and press on that

:45:07.:45:10.

point that we need to make fun of everything. Even the things that we

:45:11.:45:14.

are worried about, that is a step forward. You are an optimist are

:45:15.:45:20.

you? Ha ha, I have to be an optimist, and you know, or else I

:45:21.:45:25.

couldn't, I would be a very sad soul in front of TV when the cameras

:45:26.:45:31.

roll. So I have to. Politically what do you think will happen in your

:45:32.:45:37.

country? This is a question for the ages, because for the last three

:45:38.:45:41.

years anything I have learned in my country is Egypt is quite

:45:42.:45:44.

unpredictable. I always say that we have been the soap opera of the

:45:45.:45:48.

world. There is always something dramatic happening in this country,

:45:49.:45:52.

you have a President, now you don't have a President, you have a

:45:53.:45:55.

political power, now it is gone. I mean we are very impressive. So I

:45:56.:46:00.

think we are going to continue to surprise the world and provide

:46:01.:46:06.

really good material for the news bulletins all over the world. Thank

:46:07.:46:15.

you very much. Thank you. Tomorrow morning's front pages now, the Times

:46:16.:46:21.

goes with the verdict in the Duggan case.

:46:22.:47:03.

That's all for tonight, Kirsty is here tomorrow, until then good

:47:04.:47:32.

night. Hello there, pretty wet end to

:47:33.:47:33.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman. Looking at reaction to the Mark Duggan verdict, interest rates, China and Japan dispute, Men's Fashion Week, and Egypt's answer to Jon Stewart.


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