Browse content similar to 13/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On Newsnight tonight, we examine the central proposition of this | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
Government, not just that they there must be cuts to public spending | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
because we can't afford it, but because a smaller state is in itself | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
a good thing. But while spending cuts may be | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
leading the Westminster agenda, is the threat real or phoney? | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
All this talk of rolling back the state, but what would you actually | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
get rid of? Police, security, Fire Services? Child protection? The NHS | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
or the at the timeric becomes much harder in practice. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
We will see if Ninkovich dares to say upon whom the axe should fall. | :00:47. | :01:02. | |
And ecomes much harder in practice. We will see if Ninkovich dares to | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
say upon whom the axe should fall. And this... Is this the test way to | :01:06. | :01:07. | |
stop people eating too much. We talk to the normer NHS | :01:08. | :01:19. | |
psychiatric Payton Paitent who said she was raped 50 times by staff. It | :01:20. | :01:35. | |
is playing field for predators. A fortnight into the new year and it | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
can be summarised in one word "cuts". One Labour MP thought he was | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
being funny today calling the Chancellor Baron Hardup. What was | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
originally an attempt to get a bankrupt country back on a sound | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
footing, has now taken on a different aspect. Cutting public | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
spending is said to be a good thing in itself. Part a of a programme to | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
reduce the size of the state. Not an adjustment in engineering but an | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
adjustment of what the state is for. This is a huge change in the way we | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
live. The state ought to confine itself to what regards the state, | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
wrote the father of modern Conservatism, Edmund Burke some 200 | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
years ago. In a word to everything that is truly and properly public, | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
to the public peace, public safety, public order, public prosperity. | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Well, we have come a long way since then. Nowadays the state doesn't | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
just control the health service and taxation, it puts CCTV cameras on | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
our streets, smoking bans in pub, it enforces the wearing of a seatbelt, | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
it advises on the right foods to eat. It even sends us to parenting | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
classes. The real thing is, do you feel protected or smothered by that? | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Time to roll back the state, announced the Chancellor last week, | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
it may fit the Tory ideology, but this argument was just about cash. | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
Britain should never return to the levels of spending of the last | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Government. Government is going to have to be permanently smaller and | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
so too is our welfare system. But his claims have been labelled a or | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
the of radicalism by some, words, few actions. The reality is that | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
since he has been Chancellor public spending has gone down a minuscule | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
amount as a sharer of our total national wealth. So I'm afraid the | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
rhetoric is very encouraging, but to make it happen we are going to need | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
a lot more than just talk. Over the last 50 years Government spending | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
has been turned on and off, sometimes as a result of ideology, | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
the Thatcher years, more often as a reaction to the economic crises that | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
have beset the country. In 2000 public spending as a percentage of | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
GDP was 34%, the least for 40ersy. It began rising under the Blair | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
Government and spiked sharply during the financial crisis, peaking at 47% | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
in 200 #. Since then it has begun to fall again, although the projected | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
big of 39% for 2014 is still higher than the early years of the last | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Labour Government. The state has of course retreated from ownership of | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
the commanding heights of the British economy since 1979. | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Carriages telecom, airways, retain their "British" prefix, but the | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
industries themselves were privatised and transformed. Perhaps, | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
that though, was the easy bit. The Government is left with dealing in | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
many areas difficult sticky issues, child protection. Can you imagine | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
entrepeneurs want to go buy that service from the Government. Can you | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
imagine the Government wanting to sell that to a private sector | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
company. A lot of what Government does, get annoyed and get frustrated | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
with the inefficiencies at times, but do you want a private company to | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
run that. Add row ocates say the public is already ahead of the | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
politicians in wanting consumer choice. As parent you can decide | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
what apps are on your child's iPad, but you have no say over what they | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
learn and how they learn it. We need a state that allows that | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
self-selection, public service playlists controlled by members of | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
the public. You are talking about the difference between entertainment | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
and something that could be fundamental to a child's welfare. | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
For example which private company ran a child protection scheme? Of | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
course you know music and entertainment are relatively | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
trivial, but the fact that you have choice over relatively trivial | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
things, but don't have the same choice as fundamental over education | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
and healthcare is part of the problem I think. It is certainly | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
true that large areas of public spending are insulated from cuts. | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
David Cameron was quick to make the NHS a symbol of his compassionate | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Conservatism when he became leader. It wasn't just a value, it was the | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
ring-fencing of an entire budget. Overseas aid is simply protected, | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
increasingly it sounds as if benefits for the elderly will be | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
too. Recent attempts at privatisation, the Royal Mail, have | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
led to accusations the UK taxpayer has been sold short. And when the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
security sector was opened up to companies like G 4 S, it fete with | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
what we -- it was met with what we might call mixed results. There was | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
the irony and some would say travasity, cuts to the Armed Forces, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
who would have thought it under a Tory Government. On the day he was | :06:24. | :06:25. | |
elected leader of the Conservatives, David Cameron argued forcibly for | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
society, making clear it was not the same as the state. An echo and | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
rebuttal of Margaret Thatcher's words two decades ago. Those around | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
him point out that although the rhetoric has gone quiet, Big Society | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
has flourished behind the scenes. The problem for many politicians is | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
the expression of any big idea, Big Society, smaller state, one-nation, | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
is easy to talk about but harder to deliver. The public are perfectly | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
willing to say they would like a smaller state apart from the one in | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
which they themselves benefit. With us now to discuss all of this, | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Alister Heath, the editor of City AM, Sean Worth, a former special | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
adviser to David Cameron, and now a senior consultant for the Policy | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Exchange think-tank. Vidhya Alakeson is deputy chief executive of the | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Resolution Foundation, and formerly a senior advisory to the Treasury | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
when Gordon Brown was Chancellor. And Maurice Glassman, a Labour peer, | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
who has advised bland. Ed Miliband. Urgh arguing in the Telegraph that | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
George Osborne was not going far enough and he didn't have a real | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
target for cutting public spending, are you serious? Yes I am serious, | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
because I think the UK needs to reinvent what the Government does. I | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
think we need to be more like Australia and Switzerland when it | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
comes to overall levels of public spending. We need to find new ways | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
to provide pensions and healthcare and some of these other services, to | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
reduce the size of the state, and reduce taxes but improve services | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
and help the poor. This is about re-thinking from scratch what does | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
the Government do? What does the private sector do? What should | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
individuals be responsible for. Let's go out there and look at other | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
countries, how have the Germans got a good healthcare system and the | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Dutch healthcare system and the Singaporean system. You would accept | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
that there hasn't been a dramatic cup in the size of the -- cut in the | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
size of the state? There is holes you can pick in everything, the | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
Dutch healthcare system has massive waiting times. George Osborne's | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
plans were more aggressive, but there hasn't the growth that we | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
expected in order to offset the need to just cut the public sector. He | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
has pulled back from that. A lot of the caricatures of the left that | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
he's some sort of hatchet man as we have seen, and others saying he | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
should go further, actually he's much more in line with what the | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
public have always been saying on this. They accept the need for cuts, | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
we don't want to go too fast, too deep when there isn't the growth | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
coming in to support them. What he's doing is not necessarily in line | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
what with what he says he's doing? What he has said at the outset is | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
there is a tough line on public spending, growth coming in and get | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
down the deficit. That didn't actually happen as fast as was | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
planned. But he set out a new target which goes more ambitious when | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
growth comes in. I think it is perfectly reasonable. Is cutting the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
size of the state achievable? I think the gap between what different | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
countries spend as a percentage of GDP, western countries it is | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
relatively small. Let's not make a fetish of small states. What | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
Alastair is saying, effectively, is let's figure out what we want the | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
Government to do, what should be provided collectively and how much | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
are we willing to spend on that. We are clearly not willing to spend as | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
much as Sweden. But we seem to be willing to spend more than the US, | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
for example, on public provision. We can't dramatically roll back the | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
state and have the outcomes people care about. If you don't want to | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
wait in hospitals and have the best cancer care and have good education | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
for your children in school. There is only a certain amount you can | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
roll back the state if those matter to you. We will come to what the | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
state has to provide in a minute or two. Is this something that Ed | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Miliband should be looking at? Definitely. I would say in agreement | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
that there is a complete lack of strategic vision in the Government, | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
in relation. It is just less the same, or sometimes more of the same. | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
But what's required is quite a radical decentralisation of power, | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
people have to have a greater sense of participation and ownership. | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
There is also the case that this discussion is post crash with the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
enormous failure of the financial sector, the irresponsibility and | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
recklessness. We need to think about what the state can do to facilitate | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
a common good, corporate governance reform, those issues. We need to | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
think about where are the areas of quality and how to build upon them. | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
There have been no technological advances funded by the private | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
sector, all from the public sector. What is the job of the state? What | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
does the state have to provide? The state has to provide help for the | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
poor, it needs to help people get on in life. It has to provide law and | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
order. It doesn't have to produce every pension. It doesn't have to be | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
state pensions for everybody, for example, in countries like Australia | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
people save a lot of money for themselves. People save 9-12% of | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
their income every year. You see that in lots of other countries | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
around the world, where most people in these societies have pensions. | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
Pensions is one area? It is an area where the state could retrench, and | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
focus its efforts for helping the worse off. We have an expensive | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
pensions system at the moment in the UK. It doesn't work very well. | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
Pensions are poor and the income is too low. What do you think of the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
idea in Germany where there is a codetermination of the pension funds | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
between capital and labour and there is a greater roll for unions. I | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
prefer the systems in Latin America and New Zealand, they have a pot of | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
money, they spend 40 years, they save 10% or more of their income a | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
year and they provide for themselves in retirement and the state helps if | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
they can't afford to do that. There are areas the state has to grow, | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
social care, NHS, we have an ageing population, as countries get richer | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
they want to spend more on healthcare. Public funding wise, not | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
necessarily in the provision, we can have multiplicity of providers, but | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
publicly funding there will be more of. That I don't think that is the | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
case in terms of healthcare. We have seen in some other countries that | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
you can massively tap private insurance schemes, secondary | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
insurance and so on. A lot of people could take part in this co-fansing. | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
Is there a -- co-financing. Is the distinction between private and | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
public sector getting increasingly blurred? The problem with this sort | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
of academic debate is it doesn't operate in a world of political | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
reality. Academic! What world do you live in? The massive devolution of | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
power, Dutch-style blooming pension schemes. No, no, no, the big problem | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
that everyone has right now in the debate is they are looking at it in | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
a static picture, they are saying here is what we pay on the state, | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
here is what it DPOESHGS we cut it, it won't do that any more. We should | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
be looking at productivity improvements as every business or | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
charity that is to do. If you do things differently and bring in more | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
competition do things, and if you look at the work force and pay them | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
by performance. How will that reduce the size of the state? We haven't | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
done any of it. The real story is we need to spend much more on | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
healthcare in the next 20 years, there will be new technologies, | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
people are getting older. We want to spend more on healthcare, I want to, | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
as we get richer, the health service can't cope, otherwise there will be | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
huge increases in taxation of finances. This is not the way | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
forward. This is why we need to find alternative sources of financing | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
healthcare and pensions. New forms of social insurance, we need to go | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
back and look at what Beveridge was talking about and look at other | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
countries. In this country we are obsessed at what we do and not | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
looking at what other countries have achieved. The There is excellent | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
work being done by Frank Field, it is really excellent work and being | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
really seriously examined in the policy review. But also about the | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
engagment of the work force in the governance of the public sector. One | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
of the appalling aspects of the state is the indifference sometimes | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
to users but also the way it treats its workers. In schools they are | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
supposed to have a balance of interest, a third funder, a third | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
user, a third work force. It is also the case that more money doesn't | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
necessarily mean better public services? I think that's been | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
demonstrated time and time again. But what I'm saying is that whilst | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
Alastair can point out our areas where we could shrink the state, | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
just the demographic change and the growth of technology suggests there | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
are certain areas we will spend more not less. Yes, maybe something could | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
be done through insurance, but there isn't a huge appetite at the moment | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
from the UK public to have a core package provided by the NHS and | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
supplementary insurance. We are miles away from that idea as | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
something people will accept. It is a 20-year cultural change that if we | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
don't radically reform the welfare state it will eat up more of our | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
national income and that will mean higher taxes than today. The public | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
won't want that. It will impact our economic performance. Very large | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
Governments with large burdens of taxation, means low growth, low job | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
creation and low income. It is the case that we can't leave the City of | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
London for example in its light touch unregulated condition, which | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
led to extraordinary levels of cheating, there has to be a | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
structural change. One thing we are thinking about, and I'm certainly in | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
favour of, is the reform of the City of London itself, the Corporation of | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
the City of London, the most ancient democratic institution that only | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
represents capital. We should extend it to all London. Democratic | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
Governments have to decentralise. It is a separate argument? I was going | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
to say the councils... Sorry. I would be interested to know whether | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
from your intimate experience of how Government works whether David | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
Cameron and George Osborne really believe in shrinking the size of the | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
state, do they? I think most of the Conservatives would look at the | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
ballooning of the size of the state... Most Conservatives! ? I do | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
think that. I wonder why they didn't say it before the election? Most | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
people believe that as well. They believe public sector pay and work | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
force numbers and everything else got completely out of control as | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
well as welfare and the things you are mentioning. The challenge they | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
have got to grip is that, yes, we can have a smaller state and get | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
down to 40% of GDP, which I think on your piece relates to the period of | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
about 20001. But, you know, you are right, the demands on certain areas | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
of public service in particular areas which serve populations that | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
don't work, the youngest and the oldest, those are getting bigger and | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
bigger and bigger. We can have a shrunk state but we have to reform | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
what's in it in order to make it work. I would completely agree with | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
what the Government is doing, and the signal that is put out. Where it | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
needs to go faster is ideas on reform. You don't need to be as | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
academic as these guys, just look at base he can productivity. I'm sorry | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
this debate frustrates me, people don't relate to it, nothing happens. | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
By 2017 the reduction in the size of the state will not be enough to | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
generate real tax cuts, you will only balance the budget, all of this | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
for that, it is not enough. A warning today that unless | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
something is done and done soon, over half of the people of Britain | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
will be grossly fat by the middle of this century. We're already well on | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
the way as a glance at the enormous bellies and bums on most crowded | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
high streets will show. A quarter of men and women are already classified | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
as obese, yet if you looked at any pub or work place 40 years ago you | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
would have found it full of cigarette smoke. One public health | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
issue after another. Think AIDS, for example, has demonstrated that to | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
change outcomes you have to change attitudes, that means raising | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
awareness. Not smoking, or drink-driving, or | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
drugs. But a different kind of hard-hitting commercial. This from | :18:50. | :19:00. | |
Australia. It is not a secret the UK, like most western countries, | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
faces a sizeable weight problem. The latest warning today that unless | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
there is a significant change in our lifestyle we're heading for what is | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
being called a doomsday scenario. What we have to do is to have a | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
campaign that hasn't yet existed. We have had obesity for 20, 30 years | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
and the attitude of the Government has been extremely laissez faire. | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
National bee palm bee, maybe a little -- nanby, pamby, we have to | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
seriously consider changing behaviour and really becoming a bit | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
nasty, if you will, for those people who need the help. But getting us to | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
switch a plate of this for a lighter option is not going to happen | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
overnight. Smoking in a pub or driving home after a few points | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
might now seem like a hangover from the 20th century. In reality it can | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
take millions of pound to start to change public perceptions and then | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
public behaviour. The virus can be passed during sexual intercourse | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
with an infected person... Some most of the most memorable health | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
campaigns have shocked us, sexual health, to drink-driving, to | :20:15. | :20:23. | |
smoking. Every 15 cigarettes you smoke will cause a mutation. But | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
shock by itself isn't always enough. It might lay the ground for change, | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
but often it is legislation that makes the real difference. Public | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
health campaigns and your doctor telling you that basically the way | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
you are behaving, whether smoking or eating too much is bad for you. All | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
those things are really important and they do have a major impact. You | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
also need legislation to frame behaviour. Legislation can be a cost | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
effective way of changing behaviour. The ban on advertising promotion and | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
sponsorship, we have seen a dramatic fall in smoking amongst children and | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
adults since that came into effect. It cost nothing to Government. I | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
like this, "he's a growing lad". This is the next generation of | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
marketeers, we asked these undergraduate advertising students | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
at London college of communication how they would approach the problem. | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
Given a rough brief and two hours to work on it, there was satire on the | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
fast food industry. If you have the fast food industry portrayed like | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
your friend it is easier to go there and have a nice meal. If you | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
actually see what kind of person you would be if you ended up living that | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
lifestyle, it feels like yeah that would affect me. And a bunch of | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
catchy slogans. Antiobesity campaigners although | :21:47. | :21:59. | |
wary of going too far too fast and alienating the public with shock | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
tactics. We have to learn the lessons from the other hard-hitting | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
campaigns and have them in reserve to go and use them, to start off | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
with those campaigns the public is not yet ready for it. You know how | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
it is, you settle down, put on a few kilos, I'm not worried. | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
For the moment, then, at least, this kind of commercial sun likely to | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
make its way on to British TV screens. In 30 years time the | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
Australian approach to obesity might look like scaremongering, or | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
perceptive and far-sighted maybe. It is naturally assumed that a patient | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
in the care of the National Health Service is protected. But tonight | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
Newsnight can report claims that a patient was raped between 50-60 | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
times while at an NHS psychiatric hospital in Kent, by one of the | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
people who was supposed to be looking after her. The woman is now | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
in her 40s and a mother of two. She says the care worker told her he | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
would get her discharged if she didn't do, he would be able to help | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
her and not get her discharged if he didn't do what he wanted. We are | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
protecting her identity, so Katherine is not her real name, we | :23:22. | :23:35. | |
went to meet her. Katherine was admitted to Little | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
Brook Psychiatric Hospital in Kent in 2003 and treated for nearly six | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
months. She had emerged from a long-term violent relationship and | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
had offaled anorexia. At her home she told me the abuse began a week | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
after she arrived at the unit. One night he came into my room and sat | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
on my bed, he was stroking me over the covers, my legs and my thighs | :24:01. | :24:13. | |
and it went from there. What happened next? He came into my room | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
on another occasion, said nothing to me, pulled the covers back and got | :24:19. | :24:27. | |
on top of me and raped me. And that continued every shift he was on for | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
the entirety of my stay. Did you move, did you speak on that first | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
occasion? No. I wasn't speaking to anybody about anything at any time | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
about anything for the first couple of weeks there. I was so defeated so | :24:47. | :24:59. | |
I was putty in Ninkovich's hands. -- putty in any one's hands. Were you | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
aware what he was doing was wrong? I was aware, I didn't like what he was | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
doing, and I didn't want him to be doing what he was doing. He would | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
say he's responsible on his shift to write up the reports on how all the | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
patients had been that night. It would go in my favour. He would make | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
sure I was able to get out of there. I had tried to leave two or three | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
times, but I was always stopped and always told that I was too ill and I | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
would be sectioned. They had me over a barrel. I was stuck. Sorry... . | :25:32. | :25:50. | |
It's fine, it is fine. It sounds so ridiculous, why the hell didn't you | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
kick him off. I was very alone in that place. You have a long-term, | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
highly-regarded member of staff tell you that your way out, your ticket | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
out is to agree to his demands. And then you find you have not argued | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
and said no and fought back the first time and then it happens again | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
and the second time then you think well nobody is going to believe me | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
now if I speak because I didn't speak up about the first time. It | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
sound like you were broken? I was broken. Completely broken. Was he | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
grooming you, was he blackmailing you, how would you describe it? | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
Without a doubt he was who was going to believe a mentally ill person, | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
over a long standing member of staff, popular with his colleagues. | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
It is a playing field for predators. On one occasion you had to be taken | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
during A? During the course of the day I started to get more and more | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
pain in my lower pelvic area, it got to quite an excruciating pain by the | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
evening. I was taken by ambulance with a member of staff to the local | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
A hospital, and kept in for 24 hours, I was diagnosed subsequently | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
with pelvic inflammatory disease. Which is a sexually transmitted | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
infection? It is. Did anyone ask how you might have contracted that? No. | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
Not one person. Eventually you were discharged from Little Brook and | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
placed in the care of a community psychiatric nurse, which is how the | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
abuse emerged in the end, wasn't it? I had struggled, I had struggled a | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
lot with why didn't I kick him off, why did I just lay there. Why did I | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
allow it to happen. And the better I got, the more acutely I struggled | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
with those questions. So I hypotheyically asked this | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
psychiatric nurse if a patient were to find themselves in this position | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
but they did nothing about it and allowed it to happen, are they as | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
much to blame. And she very quickly desievered that I was talk -- | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
understood I was talking about myself. She told her manager, and | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
because it was a criminal offence the police were called and he was | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
arrested. He pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
patient on one occasion, and eventually he was given a 12-month | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
custodial sentence that was suspended for two years. Although | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
the judge said in his comments that he had to suspend his cynicism that | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
it only happened on one occasion and several other charges were to remain | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
on file. What did you think of that sentence? Disturbing that someone | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
can ultimately rape someone in such a vulnerable time in their life when | :28:48. | :28:59. | |
they are desperately in need of care . To rape someone between 50-60 | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
times when there is nothing they can do about it, and them to walk away | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
from court, in my mind, with a mere slap on the wrist, is something that | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
has brought me to where I am today. He was never charged with rape | :29:13. | :29:21. | |
though? It was rape to me. You are defeated, empty, you have no | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
self-worth. Devoid of all emotion and then someone that is supposed to | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
be caring for you has sexual intercourse with you when you don't | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
have the capacity to stand up for yourself. That's rape. To me that's | :29:37. | :29:47. | |
rape. As I have got better over the years it is just, it has encouraged | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
me all the more to speak out. So you would say to people it is worth | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
speaking out if it has happened to you? Absolutely, I have never | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
regretted speaking out. Don't think you won't be believed. That is one | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
thing that was never at fault. I was always believed. In 2009 Catherine | :30:04. | :30:12. | |
received ?100,000 from the Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Partnership Trust. She also received a letter of apology, which said the | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
member of the staff who abused her would be "unable to work in the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
future with vulnerable people", it went to say "we acknowledge how | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
difficult this process has been for you and we are very sorry this has | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
happened". We reached the man at the centre of those allegations this | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
evening, a person close to him told us he had been in touch with the | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
police today and that he had no further comment to make. Kent and | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Medway NHS and Social Scare Partnership Trust told us they were | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
unable to comment on Katherine's face because it happened before the | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
formation of their Trust. But they pointed out that all staff undergo | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
an enhanced disclosure and barring check. You can watch a longer | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
version of that interview on the Five Live website. | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
The Israelis buried their hugely controversial former Prime Minister, | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
Ariel Sharon today. He died this week after spending eight years in a | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
coma. Both Tony Blair and Joe Biden praised Mr Sharon today after a | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
mixed reputation, a reviled military commander and statesman prepared to | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
withdraw Israeli settlers from the Gaza strip. The Middle East he left | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
was a different place to the Middle East when he entered his coma. We | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
report. He was a man with two faces. The | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
renegade military commander with a reputation for disobeying orders, | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
who reinvented himself as a political peace maker of sorts. He | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
is the right-wing politician who contributed a lot into the | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
irresponsible policy of the settlements, on the other hand he's | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
the only politician who managed to do the almost impossible which is | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
evacuate the settlements. To Palestinians he became a butcher and | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
war criminal. But to many Israelis he was a hero. Ariel Sharon | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
epitomised the Zionist dream, in a sense that he was brought up on a | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
farming community and became a soldier, a very brave soldier. The | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
one that showed the initiatives and was not afraid of actually | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
confronting the danger that the Israelis faced at the time. Much | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
like the nation of Israel itself, Ariel Sharon was born on a | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
collective farm, on a Jewish settlement in British-mandated | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
Palestinian. In many ways his life mirrored that of the country he | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
helped to forge and went on to lead. As a soldier and later as a | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
politician he had a hand in every single war that Israel fought. As | :32:59. | :33:06. | |
Defence Minister in 1982 he masterminded the invasion of | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Lebanon. An Israeli inquiry found Ariel Sharon indirectly but | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
personally responsible for a three-day massacre by Christian | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
militia men, allied to Israel. Hundreds, maybe thousands of | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
Palestinian civilians were slaughtered. But by then his | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
reputation as a brilliant military commander was already cemented. In | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
1967 he captured large parts of the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt. Six | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
years later during the Yom Kippur war, he encircled the Egyptian army | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
on a daring raid, which turned the tide of war in Israel's favour. Many | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
claim he saved the country by crossing the Suez Canal in the | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
middle of the war in spite of precise instructions by his | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
commander not to do it. And that's where he gained basically his | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
legacy. These were the wars that shaped the future of Israel and of | :34:03. | :34:11. | |
the Middle East for decades to come. In the 1990s, Ariel Sharon presided | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
over the largest expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
Gaza since Israel occupied them in 1967. But his Prime Minister in -- | :34:21. | :34:34. | |
as Prime Minister in 2005 just before his illness, he shocked | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
Israelis, without consulting the Palestinians, he withdrew from Gaza. | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
He framed it in Israel's security interests. But many said only | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
Sharon, with his reputation could have got away with it. Some believe | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
had he continued in office he would have gone further still. He probably | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
would have pulled out completely from the West Bank, but he would put | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
much more effort into reaching an agreement with the Palestinians in | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
which most of the West Bank is evacuated and a Palestinian state is | :35:11. | :35:19. | |
established. The Arab Spring shattered the geopolitical | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
certainties that had become the Middle East's uneasy status quo. As | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
dictators fell and power brokers saw their country descend into Civil | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
War, Ariel Sharon lay alive but unconscious in a hospital bed. It is | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
tempting to speculate how Sharon right have reacted to the events of | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
the Arab Spring, could he have steered Israel to a more pivitol | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
war, had he not been wiped off the political map by that stroke. We | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
will never know. As it is the conflict between the Israelis and | :35:53. | :35:54. | |
Palestinians, once so central to the region has now taken a back seat to | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
other concerns. I don't think he could have changing anything that | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
happened around Israel in the Arab Spring. Most will admit that the | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
Arab Spring was a humbling experience for a country that used | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
to believe it could almost shape the Middle East and be in control. For | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
the first time since 2011 it became obvious that it is very limited | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
impacting at what happens around and the world as Israel knew it | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
disappeared. They were left to deal with a very different Middle East. | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
Ariel Sharon's body was laid to rest today at his ranch near Gaza. In his | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
day it was a truth universally acknowledged that if you solved the | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians you solved the | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
problems of the Middle East. Few still believe that today. In a | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
moment we will speak to Mostafa Barghouti, a member of the | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
Palestinian Legislative Council who is in Ramallah, first joining us in | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
the studio is Daniel Taub, the Israeli ambassador to the UK. You | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
worked with Ariel Sharon, did you like him? I did, and I have to say I | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
think everybody who met him, particularly because he had such a | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
clear public persona was really quite taken aback to see what a | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
multidimensional person he actually was. He was somebody who loved music | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
and his food, of course. He was somebody, if you asked him, he had | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
been a soldier a politician, but if you asked him what he really was he | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
would have probably said a farmer. He was never happier than when he | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
was on his ranch in the Negev, he felt very, very close to the land. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
When you look at the Middle East he left, a few days ago, and you look | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
at how it was when he suffered and went into the coma. They are very | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
different places aren't they? They are different places, but it is | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
interesting you know, your journalists were decribing different | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
faces of Ariel Sharon, I think there is a fairly consistent theme that | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
would still be relevant today even in the new Middle East. The guiding | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
principle of his life is how can we ensure that we remain a stable and | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
secure society in this conflict. He said it himself, he said we are in a | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
region that is merciless to the weak, but we cannot ensure our | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
security only through the sword. And it was really between those two | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
perameter, between ensuring your security and trying to reach out. | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
This is what he did in Gaza and the north of the West Bank, where he | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
uprooted settlers. He was trying to find the way, in difficult | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
circumstances, we could try to find an accommodation. I suppose the | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
irony is that he was the guy that taught Israelis that we needed to | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
reach out for peace, and unfortunately the legacy of that | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
disengagment, where unfortunately that land we pulled out of turned | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
into launching pads for missiles against us has really unfortunately | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
made it much harder for us to reach out in that way at the moment. It is | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
interesting that his successes haven't acted -- successors haven't | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
acted as he has? I'm not sure that is true. We have a leader at the | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
moment, Prime Minister Netanyahu, in very much the same way has | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
recognised and spoken frankly about the fact that we need an | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
accommodation with the Palestinians, we have to compromise on our dreams | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
for their dreams. He's releasing as we are speaking now, and we have | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
spoken about it in the past, very brutal terrorists, in a sense in way | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
to make a gesture to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, and to try to | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
create the environment to reach a peace together. Thank you. Let's | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
just have a quick chat now to Mostafa Barghouti, who is in the | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
West Bank. Mr Barghouti, when you hear today, Joe Biden talking about | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
Israel, Palestine as a possible island of stability in the Middle | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
East, you do realise what a huge change has occurred, don't you? Well | :39:49. | :40:00. | |
I'm sure, I'm not sure this is an area of stability, I don't think you | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
could call a system of colonialism and apartheid and the loest | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
occupation in modern history that. In contrary to what was said I don't | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
think Ariel Sharon will be remembered as a peace-maker but | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
rather as a warrior as he described himself. For many Palestinians he's | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
a war criminal, responsible for several crimes and several | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
massacres, starting in the 19 50s, to the one that he was found guilty, | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
skilling Egyptian soldiers when they were prisoners of war, et cetera, et | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
cetera. The most unfortunate thing the language of force is still used | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
and we are still under occupation and we still suffer from a system of | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
apartheid that is much worse than what prevailed in South Africa. I | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
don't think we can call this stability. When you look at the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
political situation that you find yourselves in now, and you look at | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
what has happened to all the once powerful states, Egypt, Syria, | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
surrounding Palestine, is it easier now to try to make some sort of | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
political progress or is it a lot more difficult? I think, I think the | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
situation in the Middle East is a situation of people struggling to | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
achieve democracy. I think most Arab people have revolted and will | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
continue to revolt until they achieve what they deserve which is | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
democracy and proper representation of the people. Tunisia represents a | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
good example of peaceful revolution. Egypt is a different story, Syria is | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
drowning in a terrible Civil War. But in Palestine also we have a very | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
important struggle. A struggle of people who decided to turn to | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
nonviolence and we are conducting our own non--violent resistance | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
today, to end the occupation and to achieve independence and achieve | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
democracy as well. I believe that the turmoil in the Middle East | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
should not distract us from the fact that real stability in the Middle | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
East can't be achieved without solving the Palestinian issue. Thank | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
you, ambassador a quick last word from you. The situation, the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
political situation that has arisen now, where you have this turmoil | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
engulfing all those many states around the region. And the attempts | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
to make peace within Israel and McAllister stein, seen once as -- | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
McAllister Palestine, seen once as the key to the problems in the | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
Middle East? I don't think it was ever the key to the Middle East, we | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
have to solve our conflict, because we have to, but we shouldn't delude | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
ourselves that every other part of the Middle East will fall into | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
place. One of the lessons we can draw from the life of Sharon, | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
relevant across the region, you need courage to defend yourselves but | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
also courage to make peace. Part of that courage is to tell the truth to | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
your own people. That is what he did repeatedly, speaking tou words to | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
his own constituency. And I think our neighbours could do a great | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
service if they were to speak to their peoples in the same way. | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
Straight after this programme there is an hour world special about the | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
life of Ariel Sharon. Reports came in shortly before they came on air | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
that Google has made a rather extravagant post-Christmas purchase, | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
our technology editor is in San Francisco and can tell us more. What | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
have they bought? They have bought a company called Nest, around for a | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
few years now, they make connected home devices and Google have bought | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
them for the Princely sum of $3. 2 billion. It confirms Google is no | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
longer a search engine company, it is about machine-learning. What do I | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
mean by that, it is about getting computers and machines to do things | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
that are useful and adapt themselves to every day life. Nest make this | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
thermostat, it is not lit up or connected to anything, with this | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
connected to a smartphone you can connect to your boiler or central | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
heating and control it from anywhere in the world. It learns about your | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
activities and habits, it knows when you leave and come home. It adapts | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
itself to that. They make this, which is a carbon non-knock side and | :44:33. | :44:41. | |
-- monoxide and smoke detector. This passes what Larry Page said, Google | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
have said today, the toothbrush test that Larry Page sets for Google to | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
get involved with, it has to be useful and used daily by people. | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
Thank you very much indeed. That's it for tonight, the outcome of the | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
Poetry Book Society's TS Elliot Prize was announced tonight. It has | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
been won by Sinead Morrissey, Poet Laureate of Belfast. Her collection, | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
Parallax, was inspired by an image of David Niven on an escalator of | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
all things. Here she is reading Lighthouse. My son is awake at ten, | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
stretched out in his bunk, wired and watchful. The end of August. Already | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
the high flung daylight sky of our northern solstice dulls earlier and | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
earlier to a clouded bowl. His Star of David lamp and plastic moon have | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
turned the dusk to dark outside his room. Across the Loch, where ferries | :45:45. | :45:54. | |
venture blythly, and once a cruiseship, massive as a palace, | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
inched its brilliant decks to open sea, a lighthouse starts its own | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
night-long address in fractured signalling. It blinks and bats the | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
swing ball of its beam, then stands to catch, then hurls it out again, | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
beyond its Parallax. He counts each creamy loop inside his head, each | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
well black interval, and thinks it just for him. This gesture from a | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
world that can't be entered, the two of them, partly curtained, partly | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
seen, upheld in a sort of boy-talk conversation. No-one else can hear. | :46:43. | :46:52. | |
That private place, it answers with birds and slatted windows. I've been | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
there. #6 Hello, an icy start to Tuesday, | :47:00. | :47:09. | |
behind | :47:10. | :47:11. |