13/01/2014 Newsnight


13/01/2014

Where will the knife really fall on state cuts and why? How to stop over-eating. What if Sharon had lived.. Poetry from Sinead Morrisey. With Jeremy Paxman.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 13/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

On Newsnight tonight, we examine the central proposition of this

:00:09.:00:13.

Government, not just that they there must be cuts to public spending

:00:14.:00:17.

because we can't afford it, but because a smaller state is in itself

:00:18.:00:23.

a good thing. But while spending cuts may be

:00:24.:00:26.

leading the Westminster agenda, is the threat real or phoney?

:00:27.:00:31.

All this talk of rolling back the state, but what would you actually

:00:32.:00:35.

get rid of? Police, security, Fire Services? Child protection? The NHS

:00:36.:00:41.

or the at the timeric becomes much harder in practice.

:00:42.:00:46.

We will see if Ninkovich dares to say upon whom the axe should fall.

:00:47.:01:02.

And ecomes much harder in practice. We will see if Ninkovich dares to

:01:03.:01:05.

say upon whom the axe should fall. And this... Is this the test way to

:01:06.:01:07.

stop people eating too much. We talk to the normer NHS

:01:08.:01:19.

psychiatric Payton Paitent who said she was raped 50 times by staff. It

:01:20.:01:35.

is playing field for predators. A fortnight into the new year and it

:01:36.:01:39.

can be summarised in one word "cuts". One Labour MP thought he was

:01:40.:01:45.

being funny today calling the Chancellor Baron Hardup. What was

:01:46.:01:49.

originally an attempt to get a bankrupt country back on a sound

:01:50.:01:53.

footing, has now taken on a different aspect. Cutting public

:01:54.:01:56.

spending is said to be a good thing in itself. Part a of a programme to

:01:57.:02:06.

reduce the size of the state. Not an adjustment in engineering but an

:02:07.:02:09.

adjustment of what the state is for. This is a huge change in the way we

:02:10.:02:15.

live. The state ought to confine itself to what regards the state,

:02:16.:02:21.

wrote the father of modern Conservatism, Edmund Burke some 200

:02:22.:02:25.

years ago. In a word to everything that is truly and properly public,

:02:26.:02:29.

to the public peace, public safety, public order, public prosperity.

:02:30.:02:33.

Well, we have come a long way since then. Nowadays the state doesn't

:02:34.:02:38.

just control the health service and taxation, it puts CCTV cameras on

:02:39.:02:43.

our streets, smoking bans in pub, it enforces the wearing of a seatbelt,

:02:44.:02:46.

it advises on the right foods to eat. It even sends us to parenting

:02:47.:02:51.

classes. The real thing is, do you feel protected or smothered by that?

:02:52.:02:55.

Time to roll back the state, announced the Chancellor last week,

:02:56.:02:59.

it may fit the Tory ideology, but this argument was just about cash.

:03:00.:03:02.

Britain should never return to the levels of spending of the last

:03:03.:03:06.

Government. Government is going to have to be permanently smaller and

:03:07.:03:10.

so too is our welfare system. But his claims have been labelled a or

:03:11.:03:16.

the of radicalism by some, words, few actions. The reality is that

:03:17.:03:21.

since he has been Chancellor public spending has gone down a minuscule

:03:22.:03:24.

amount as a sharer of our total national wealth. So I'm afraid the

:03:25.:03:28.

rhetoric is very encouraging, but to make it happen we are going to need

:03:29.:03:33.

a lot more than just talk. Over the last 50 years Government spending

:03:34.:03:35.

has been turned on and off, sometimes as a result of ideology,

:03:36.:03:39.

the Thatcher years, more often as a reaction to the economic crises that

:03:40.:03:45.

have beset the country. In 2000 public spending as a percentage of

:03:46.:03:50.

GDP was 34%, the least for 40ersy. It began rising under the Blair

:03:51.:03:54.

Government and spiked sharply during the financial crisis, peaking at 47%

:03:55.:04:00.

in 200 #. Since then it has begun to fall again, although the projected

:04:01.:04:05.

big of 39% for 2014 is still higher than the early years of the last

:04:06.:04:09.

Labour Government. The state has of course retreated from ownership of

:04:10.:04:12.

the commanding heights of the British economy since 1979.

:04:13.:04:17.

Carriages telecom, airways, retain their "British" prefix, but the

:04:18.:04:20.

industries themselves were privatised and transformed. Perhaps,

:04:21.:04:26.

that though, was the easy bit. The Government is left with dealing in

:04:27.:04:30.

many areas difficult sticky issues, child protection. Can you imagine

:04:31.:04:34.

entrepeneurs want to go buy that service from the Government. Can you

:04:35.:04:37.

imagine the Government wanting to sell that to a private sector

:04:38.:04:41.

company. A lot of what Government does, get annoyed and get frustrated

:04:42.:04:45.

with the inefficiencies at times, but do you want a private company to

:04:46.:04:51.

run that. Add row ocates say the public is already ahead of the

:04:52.:04:55.

politicians in wanting consumer choice. As parent you can decide

:04:56.:05:00.

what apps are on your child's iPad, but you have no say over what they

:05:01.:05:04.

learn and how they learn it. We need a state that allows that

:05:05.:05:07.

self-selection, public service playlists controlled by members of

:05:08.:05:10.

the public. You are talking about the difference between entertainment

:05:11.:05:13.

and something that could be fundamental to a child's welfare.

:05:14.:05:17.

For example which private company ran a child protection scheme? Of

:05:18.:05:23.

course you know music and entertainment are relatively

:05:24.:05:26.

trivial, but the fact that you have choice over relatively trivial

:05:27.:05:31.

things, but don't have the same choice as fundamental over education

:05:32.:05:35.

and healthcare is part of the problem I think. It is certainly

:05:36.:05:39.

true that large areas of public spending are insulated from cuts.

:05:40.:05:42.

David Cameron was quick to make the NHS a symbol of his compassionate

:05:43.:05:46.

Conservatism when he became leader. It wasn't just a value, it was the

:05:47.:05:50.

ring-fencing of an entire budget. Overseas aid is simply protected,

:05:51.:05:54.

increasingly it sounds as if benefits for the elderly will be

:05:55.:05:58.

too. Recent attempts at privatisation, the Royal Mail, have

:05:59.:06:01.

led to accusations the UK taxpayer has been sold short. And when the

:06:02.:06:06.

security sector was opened up to companies like G 4 S, it fete with

:06:07.:06:13.

what we -- it was met with what we might call mixed results. There was

:06:14.:06:19.

the irony and some would say travasity, cuts to the Armed Forces,

:06:20.:06:23.

who would have thought it under a Tory Government. On the day he was

:06:24.:06:25.

elected leader of the Conservatives, David Cameron argued forcibly for

:06:26.:06:32.

society, making clear it was not the same as the state. An echo and

:06:33.:06:35.

rebuttal of Margaret Thatcher's words two decades ago. Those around

:06:36.:06:41.

him point out that although the rhetoric has gone quiet, Big Society

:06:42.:06:44.

has flourished behind the scenes. The problem for many politicians is

:06:45.:06:50.

the expression of any big idea, Big Society, smaller state, one-nation,

:06:51.:06:57.

is easy to talk about but harder to deliver. The public are perfectly

:06:58.:07:01.

willing to say they would like a smaller state apart from the one in

:07:02.:07:05.

which they themselves benefit. With us now to discuss all of this,

:07:06.:07:10.

Alister Heath, the editor of City AM, Sean Worth, a former special

:07:11.:07:14.

adviser to David Cameron, and now a senior consultant for the Policy

:07:15.:07:20.

Exchange think-tank. Vidhya Alakeson is deputy chief executive of the

:07:21.:07:24.

Resolution Foundation, and formerly a senior advisory to the Treasury

:07:25.:07:28.

when Gordon Brown was Chancellor. And Maurice Glassman, a Labour peer,

:07:29.:07:36.

who has advised bland. Ed Miliband. Urgh arguing in the Telegraph that

:07:37.:07:42.

George Osborne was not going far enough and he didn't have a real

:07:43.:07:45.

target for cutting public spending, are you serious? Yes I am serious,

:07:46.:07:49.

because I think the UK needs to reinvent what the Government does. I

:07:50.:07:52.

think we need to be more like Australia and Switzerland when it

:07:53.:07:56.

comes to overall levels of public spending. We need to find new ways

:07:57.:07:59.

to provide pensions and healthcare and some of these other services, to

:08:00.:08:04.

reduce the size of the state, and reduce taxes but improve services

:08:05.:08:07.

and help the poor. This is about re-thinking from scratch what does

:08:08.:08:11.

the Government do? What does the private sector do? What should

:08:12.:08:16.

individuals be responsible for. Let's go out there and look at other

:08:17.:08:20.

countries, how have the Germans got a good healthcare system and the

:08:21.:08:26.

Dutch healthcare system and the Singaporean system. You would accept

:08:27.:08:30.

that there hasn't been a dramatic cup in the size of the -- cut in the

:08:31.:08:34.

size of the state? There is holes you can pick in everything, the

:08:35.:08:40.

Dutch healthcare system has massive waiting times. George Osborne's

:08:41.:08:43.

plans were more aggressive, but there hasn't the growth that we

:08:44.:08:48.

expected in order to offset the need to just cut the public sector. He

:08:49.:08:53.

has pulled back from that. A lot of the caricatures of the left that

:08:54.:08:56.

he's some sort of hatchet man as we have seen, and others saying he

:08:57.:09:00.

should go further, actually he's much more in line with what the

:09:01.:09:03.

public have always been saying on this. They accept the need for cuts,

:09:04.:09:06.

we don't want to go too fast, too deep when there isn't the growth

:09:07.:09:10.

coming in to support them. What he's doing is not necessarily in line

:09:11.:09:16.

what with what he says he's doing? What he has said at the outset is

:09:17.:09:20.

there is a tough line on public spending, growth coming in and get

:09:21.:09:23.

down the deficit. That didn't actually happen as fast as was

:09:24.:09:27.

planned. But he set out a new target which goes more ambitious when

:09:28.:09:31.

growth comes in. I think it is perfectly reasonable. Is cutting the

:09:32.:09:35.

size of the state achievable? I think the gap between what different

:09:36.:09:40.

countries spend as a percentage of GDP, western countries it is

:09:41.:09:44.

relatively small. Let's not make a fetish of small states. What

:09:45.:09:47.

Alastair is saying, effectively, is let's figure out what we want the

:09:48.:09:51.

Government to do, what should be provided collectively and how much

:09:52.:09:54.

are we willing to spend on that. We are clearly not willing to spend as

:09:55.:09:58.

much as Sweden. But we seem to be willing to spend more than the US,

:09:59.:10:03.

for example, on public provision. We can't dramatically roll back the

:10:04.:10:06.

state and have the outcomes people care about. If you don't want to

:10:07.:10:09.

wait in hospitals and have the best cancer care and have good education

:10:10.:10:12.

for your children in school. There is only a certain amount you can

:10:13.:10:16.

roll back the state if those matter to you. We will come to what the

:10:17.:10:21.

state has to provide in a minute or two. Is this something that Ed

:10:22.:10:25.

Miliband should be looking at? Definitely. I would say in agreement

:10:26.:10:29.

that there is a complete lack of strategic vision in the Government,

:10:30.:10:32.

in relation. It is just less the same, or sometimes more of the same.

:10:33.:10:38.

But what's required is quite a radical decentralisation of power,

:10:39.:10:41.

people have to have a greater sense of participation and ownership.

:10:42.:10:45.

There is also the case that this discussion is post crash with the

:10:46.:10:49.

enormous failure of the financial sector, the irresponsibility and

:10:50.:10:52.

recklessness. We need to think about what the state can do to facilitate

:10:53.:10:57.

a common good, corporate governance reform, those issues. We need to

:10:58.:11:01.

think about where are the areas of quality and how to build upon them.

:11:02.:11:06.

There have been no technological advances funded by the private

:11:07.:11:10.

sector, all from the public sector. What is the job of the state? What

:11:11.:11:14.

does the state have to provide? The state has to provide help for the

:11:15.:11:19.

poor, it needs to help people get on in life. It has to provide law and

:11:20.:11:22.

order. It doesn't have to produce every pension. It doesn't have to be

:11:23.:11:26.

state pensions for everybody, for example, in countries like Australia

:11:27.:11:29.

people save a lot of money for themselves. People save 9-12% of

:11:30.:11:33.

their income every year. You see that in lots of other countries

:11:34.:11:37.

around the world, where most people in these societies have pensions.

:11:38.:11:41.

Pensions is one area? It is an area where the state could retrench, and

:11:42.:11:46.

focus its efforts for helping the worse off. We have an expensive

:11:47.:11:50.

pensions system at the moment in the UK. It doesn't work very well.

:11:51.:11:54.

Pensions are poor and the income is too low. What do you think of the

:11:55.:11:58.

idea in Germany where there is a codetermination of the pension funds

:11:59.:12:01.

between capital and labour and there is a greater roll for unions. I

:12:02.:12:06.

prefer the systems in Latin America and New Zealand, they have a pot of

:12:07.:12:10.

money, they spend 40 years, they save 10% or more of their income a

:12:11.:12:14.

year and they provide for themselves in retirement and the state helps if

:12:15.:12:18.

they can't afford to do that. There are areas the state has to grow,

:12:19.:12:22.

social care, NHS, we have an ageing population, as countries get richer

:12:23.:12:26.

they want to spend more on healthcare. Public funding wise, not

:12:27.:12:30.

necessarily in the provision, we can have multiplicity of providers, but

:12:31.:12:34.

publicly funding there will be more of. That I don't think that is the

:12:35.:12:37.

case in terms of healthcare. We have seen in some other countries that

:12:38.:12:40.

you can massively tap private insurance schemes, secondary

:12:41.:12:44.

insurance and so on. A lot of people could take part in this co-fansing.

:12:45.:12:51.

Is there a -- co-financing. Is the distinction between private and

:12:52.:12:54.

public sector getting increasingly blurred? The problem with this sort

:12:55.:12:58.

of academic debate is it doesn't operate in a world of political

:12:59.:13:03.

reality. Academic! What world do you live in? The massive devolution of

:13:04.:13:09.

power, Dutch-style blooming pension schemes. No, no, no, the big problem

:13:10.:13:13.

that everyone has right now in the debate is they are looking at it in

:13:14.:13:17.

a static picture, they are saying here is what we pay on the state,

:13:18.:13:21.

here is what it DPOESHGS we cut it, it won't do that any more. We should

:13:22.:13:25.

be looking at productivity improvements as every business or

:13:26.:13:29.

charity that is to do. If you do things differently and bring in more

:13:30.:13:34.

competition do things, and if you look at the work force and pay them

:13:35.:13:39.

by performance. How will that reduce the size of the state? We haven't

:13:40.:13:45.

done any of it. The real story is we need to spend much more on

:13:46.:13:49.

healthcare in the next 20 years, there will be new technologies,

:13:50.:13:52.

people are getting older. We want to spend more on healthcare, I want to,

:13:53.:13:58.

as we get richer, the health service can't cope, otherwise there will be

:13:59.:14:01.

huge increases in taxation of finances. This is not the way

:14:02.:14:05.

forward. This is why we need to find alternative sources of financing

:14:06.:14:08.

healthcare and pensions. New forms of social insurance, we need to go

:14:09.:14:13.

back and look at what Beveridge was talking about and look at other

:14:14.:14:17.

countries. In this country we are obsessed at what we do and not

:14:18.:14:21.

looking at what other countries have achieved. The There is excellent

:14:22.:14:29.

work being done by Frank Field, it is really excellent work and being

:14:30.:14:33.

really seriously examined in the policy review. But also about the

:14:34.:14:38.

engagment of the work force in the governance of the public sector. One

:14:39.:14:42.

of the appalling aspects of the state is the indifference sometimes

:14:43.:14:47.

to users but also the way it treats its workers. In schools they are

:14:48.:14:50.

supposed to have a balance of interest, a third funder, a third

:14:51.:14:56.

user, a third work force. It is also the case that more money doesn't

:14:57.:15:00.

necessarily mean better public services? I think that's been

:15:01.:15:02.

demonstrated time and time again. But what I'm saying is that whilst

:15:03.:15:07.

Alastair can point out our areas where we could shrink the state,

:15:08.:15:11.

just the demographic change and the growth of technology suggests there

:15:12.:15:14.

are certain areas we will spend more not less. Yes, maybe something could

:15:15.:15:18.

be done through insurance, but there isn't a huge appetite at the moment

:15:19.:15:21.

from the UK public to have a core package provided by the NHS and

:15:22.:15:26.

supplementary insurance. We are miles away from that idea as

:15:27.:15:31.

something people will accept. It is a 20-year cultural change that if we

:15:32.:15:35.

don't radically reform the welfare state it will eat up more of our

:15:36.:15:39.

national income and that will mean higher taxes than today. The public

:15:40.:15:44.

won't want that. It will impact our economic performance. Very large

:15:45.:15:47.

Governments with large burdens of taxation, means low growth, low job

:15:48.:15:53.

creation and low income. It is the case that we can't leave the City of

:15:54.:16:00.

London for example in its light touch unregulated condition, which

:16:01.:16:03.

led to extraordinary levels of cheating, there has to be a

:16:04.:16:07.

structural change. One thing we are thinking about, and I'm certainly in

:16:08.:16:12.

favour of, is the reform of the City of London itself, the Corporation of

:16:13.:16:16.

the City of London, the most ancient democratic institution that only

:16:17.:16:20.

represents capital. We should extend it to all London. Democratic

:16:21.:16:24.

Governments have to decentralise. It is a separate argument? I was going

:16:25.:16:29.

to say the councils... Sorry. I would be interested to know whether

:16:30.:16:33.

from your intimate experience of how Government works whether David

:16:34.:16:37.

Cameron and George Osborne really believe in shrinking the size of the

:16:38.:16:42.

state, do they? I think most of the Conservatives would look at the

:16:43.:16:44.

ballooning of the size of the state... Most Conservatives! ? I do

:16:45.:16:50.

think that. I wonder why they didn't say it before the election? Most

:16:51.:16:54.

people believe that as well. They believe public sector pay and work

:16:55.:16:57.

force numbers and everything else got completely out of control as

:16:58.:17:01.

well as welfare and the things you are mentioning. The challenge they

:17:02.:17:05.

have got to grip is that, yes, we can have a smaller state and get

:17:06.:17:10.

down to 40% of GDP, which I think on your piece relates to the period of

:17:11.:17:15.

about 20001. But, you know, you are right, the demands on certain areas

:17:16.:17:20.

of public service in particular areas which serve populations that

:17:21.:17:24.

don't work, the youngest and the oldest, those are getting bigger and

:17:25.:17:28.

bigger and bigger. We can have a shrunk state but we have to reform

:17:29.:17:32.

what's in it in order to make it work. I would completely agree with

:17:33.:17:36.

what the Government is doing, and the signal that is put out. Where it

:17:37.:17:39.

needs to go faster is ideas on reform. You don't need to be as

:17:40.:17:43.

academic as these guys, just look at base he can productivity. I'm sorry

:17:44.:17:50.

this debate frustrates me, people don't relate to it, nothing happens.

:17:51.:17:54.

By 2017 the reduction in the size of the state will not be enough to

:17:55.:17:57.

generate real tax cuts, you will only balance the budget, all of this

:17:58.:18:00.

for that, it is not enough. A warning today that unless

:18:01.:18:04.

something is done and done soon, over half of the people of Britain

:18:05.:18:08.

will be grossly fat by the middle of this century. We're already well on

:18:09.:18:12.

the way as a glance at the enormous bellies and bums on most crowded

:18:13.:18:17.

high streets will show. A quarter of men and women are already classified

:18:18.:18:23.

as obese, yet if you looked at any pub or work place 40 years ago you

:18:24.:18:27.

would have found it full of cigarette smoke. One public health

:18:28.:18:31.

issue after another. Think AIDS, for example, has demonstrated that to

:18:32.:18:35.

change outcomes you have to change attitudes, that means raising

:18:36.:18:43.

awareness. Not smoking, or drink-driving, or

:18:44.:18:49.

drugs. But a different kind of hard-hitting commercial. This from

:18:50.:19:00.

Australia. It is not a secret the UK, like most western countries,

:19:01.:19:05.

faces a sizeable weight problem. The latest warning today that unless

:19:06.:19:08.

there is a significant change in our lifestyle we're heading for what is

:19:09.:19:13.

being called a doomsday scenario. What we have to do is to have a

:19:14.:19:17.

campaign that hasn't yet existed. We have had obesity for 20, 30 years

:19:18.:19:22.

and the attitude of the Government has been extremely laissez faire.

:19:23.:19:30.

National bee palm bee, maybe a little -- nanby, pamby, we have to

:19:31.:19:35.

seriously consider changing behaviour and really becoming a bit

:19:36.:19:39.

nasty, if you will, for those people who need the help. But getting us to

:19:40.:19:44.

switch a plate of this for a lighter option is not going to happen

:19:45.:19:47.

overnight. Smoking in a pub or driving home after a few points

:19:48.:19:52.

might now seem like a hangover from the 20th century. In reality it can

:19:53.:19:55.

take millions of pound to start to change public perceptions and then

:19:56.:20:03.

public behaviour. The virus can be passed during sexual intercourse

:20:04.:20:08.

with an infected person... Some most of the most memorable health

:20:09.:20:14.

campaigns have shocked us, sexual health, to drink-driving, to

:20:15.:20:23.

smoking. Every 15 cigarettes you smoke will cause a mutation. But

:20:24.:20:27.

shock by itself isn't always enough. It might lay the ground for change,

:20:28.:20:32.

but often it is legislation that makes the real difference. Public

:20:33.:20:36.

health campaigns and your doctor telling you that basically the way

:20:37.:20:40.

you are behaving, whether smoking or eating too much is bad for you. All

:20:41.:20:42.

those things are really important and they do have a major impact. You

:20:43.:20:47.

also need legislation to frame behaviour. Legislation can be a cost

:20:48.:20:51.

effective way of changing behaviour. The ban on advertising promotion and

:20:52.:20:55.

sponsorship, we have seen a dramatic fall in smoking amongst children and

:20:56.:20:59.

adults since that came into effect. It cost nothing to Government. I

:21:00.:21:05.

like this, "he's a growing lad". This is the next generation of

:21:06.:21:11.

marketeers, we asked these undergraduate advertising students

:21:12.:21:16.

at London college of communication how they would approach the problem.

:21:17.:21:20.

Given a rough brief and two hours to work on it, there was satire on the

:21:21.:21:25.

fast food industry. If you have the fast food industry portrayed like

:21:26.:21:28.

your friend it is easier to go there and have a nice meal. If you

:21:29.:21:32.

actually see what kind of person you would be if you ended up living that

:21:33.:21:39.

lifestyle, it feels like yeah that would affect me. And a bunch of

:21:40.:21:46.

catchy slogans. Antiobesity campaigners although

:21:47.:21:59.

wary of going too far too fast and alienating the public with shock

:22:00.:22:04.

tactics. We have to learn the lessons from the other hard-hitting

:22:05.:22:08.

campaigns and have them in reserve to go and use them, to start off

:22:09.:22:12.

with those campaigns the public is not yet ready for it. You know how

:22:13.:22:17.

it is, you settle down, put on a few kilos, I'm not worried.

:22:18.:22:23.

For the moment, then, at least, this kind of commercial sun likely to

:22:24.:22:27.

make its way on to British TV screens. In 30 years time the

:22:28.:22:33.

Australian approach to obesity might look like scaremongering, or

:22:34.:22:41.

perceptive and far-sighted maybe. It is naturally assumed that a patient

:22:42.:22:45.

in the care of the National Health Service is protected. But tonight

:22:46.:22:49.

Newsnight can report claims that a patient was raped between 50-60

:22:50.:22:54.

times while at an NHS psychiatric hospital in Kent, by one of the

:22:55.:22:58.

people who was supposed to be looking after her. The woman is now

:22:59.:23:02.

in her 40s and a mother of two. She says the care worker told her he

:23:03.:23:08.

would get her discharged if she didn't do, he would be able to help

:23:09.:23:17.

her and not get her discharged if he didn't do what he wanted. We are

:23:18.:23:21.

protecting her identity, so Katherine is not her real name, we

:23:22.:23:35.

went to meet her. Katherine was admitted to Little

:23:36.:23:40.

Brook Psychiatric Hospital in Kent in 2003 and treated for nearly six

:23:41.:23:45.

months. She had emerged from a long-term violent relationship and

:23:46.:23:50.

had offaled anorexia. At her home she told me the abuse began a week

:23:51.:23:55.

after she arrived at the unit. One night he came into my room and sat

:23:56.:24:00.

on my bed, he was stroking me over the covers, my legs and my thighs

:24:01.:24:13.

and it went from there. What happened next? He came into my room

:24:14.:24:18.

on another occasion, said nothing to me, pulled the covers back and got

:24:19.:24:27.

on top of me and raped me. And that continued every shift he was on for

:24:28.:24:35.

the entirety of my stay. Did you move, did you speak on that first

:24:36.:24:41.

occasion? No. I wasn't speaking to anybody about anything at any time

:24:42.:24:46.

about anything for the first couple of weeks there. I was so defeated so

:24:47.:24:59.

I was putty in Ninkovich's hands. -- putty in any one's hands. Were you

:25:00.:25:05.

aware what he was doing was wrong? I was aware, I didn't like what he was

:25:06.:25:09.

doing, and I didn't want him to be doing what he was doing. He would

:25:10.:25:13.

say he's responsible on his shift to write up the reports on how all the

:25:14.:25:18.

patients had been that night. It would go in my favour. He would make

:25:19.:25:22.

sure I was able to get out of there. I had tried to leave two or three

:25:23.:25:26.

times, but I was always stopped and always told that I was too ill and I

:25:27.:25:31.

would be sectioned. They had me over a barrel. I was stuck. Sorry... .

:25:32.:25:50.

It's fine, it is fine. It sounds so ridiculous, why the hell didn't you

:25:51.:25:55.

kick him off. I was very alone in that place. You have a long-term,

:25:56.:26:00.

highly-regarded member of staff tell you that your way out, your ticket

:26:01.:26:07.

out is to agree to his demands. And then you find you have not argued

:26:08.:26:13.

and said no and fought back the first time and then it happens again

:26:14.:26:17.

and the second time then you think well nobody is going to believe me

:26:18.:26:22.

now if I speak because I didn't speak up about the first time. It

:26:23.:26:26.

sound like you were broken? I was broken. Completely broken. Was he

:26:27.:26:32.

grooming you, was he blackmailing you, how would you describe it?

:26:33.:26:39.

Without a doubt he was who was going to believe a mentally ill person,

:26:40.:26:44.

over a long standing member of staff, popular with his colleagues.

:26:45.:26:48.

It is a playing field for predators. On one occasion you had to be taken

:26:49.:26:52.

during A? During the course of the day I started to get more and more

:26:53.:26:58.

pain in my lower pelvic area, it got to quite an excruciating pain by the

:26:59.:27:02.

evening. I was taken by ambulance with a member of staff to the local

:27:03.:27:08.

A hospital, and kept in for 24 hours, I was diagnosed subsequently

:27:09.:27:12.

with pelvic inflammatory disease. Which is a sexually transmitted

:27:13.:27:18.

infection? It is. Did anyone ask how you might have contracted that? No.

:27:19.:27:25.

Not one person. Eventually you were discharged from Little Brook and

:27:26.:27:30.

placed in the care of a community psychiatric nurse, which is how the

:27:31.:27:35.

abuse emerged in the end, wasn't it? I had struggled, I had struggled a

:27:36.:27:41.

lot with why didn't I kick him off, why did I just lay there. Why did I

:27:42.:27:45.

allow it to happen. And the better I got, the more acutely I struggled

:27:46.:27:51.

with those questions. So I hypotheyically asked this

:27:52.:27:54.

psychiatric nurse if a patient were to find themselves in this position

:27:55.:27:57.

but they did nothing about it and allowed it to happen, are they as

:27:58.:28:04.

much to blame. And she very quickly desievered that I was talk --

:28:05.:28:12.

understood I was talking about myself. She told her manager, and

:28:13.:28:15.

because it was a criminal offence the police were called and he was

:28:16.:28:20.

arrested. He pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with

:28:21.:28:23.

patient on one occasion, and eventually he was given a 12-month

:28:24.:28:29.

custodial sentence that was suspended for two years. Although

:28:30.:28:33.

the judge said in his comments that he had to suspend his cynicism that

:28:34.:28:38.

it only happened on one occasion and several other charges were to remain

:28:39.:28:42.

on file. What did you think of that sentence? Disturbing that someone

:28:43.:28:47.

can ultimately rape someone in such a vulnerable time in their life when

:28:48.:28:59.

they are desperately in need of care . To rape someone between 50-60

:29:00.:29:03.

times when there is nothing they can do about it, and them to walk away

:29:04.:29:07.

from court, in my mind, with a mere slap on the wrist, is something that

:29:08.:29:12.

has brought me to where I am today. He was never charged with rape

:29:13.:29:21.

though? It was rape to me. You are defeated, empty, you have no

:29:22.:29:27.

self-worth. Devoid of all emotion and then someone that is supposed to

:29:28.:29:32.

be caring for you has sexual intercourse with you when you don't

:29:33.:29:36.

have the capacity to stand up for yourself. That's rape. To me that's

:29:37.:29:47.

rape. As I have got better over the years it is just, it has encouraged

:29:48.:29:52.

me all the more to speak out. So you would say to people it is worth

:29:53.:29:56.

speaking out if it has happened to you? Absolutely, I have never

:29:57.:29:59.

regretted speaking out. Don't think you won't be believed. That is one

:30:00.:30:03.

thing that was never at fault. I was always believed. In 2009 Catherine

:30:04.:30:12.

received ?100,000 from the Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care

:30:13.:30:16.

Partnership Trust. She also received a letter of apology, which said the

:30:17.:30:20.

member of the staff who abused her would be "unable to work in the

:30:21.:30:24.

future with vulnerable people", it went to say "we acknowledge how

:30:25.:30:27.

difficult this process has been for you and we are very sorry this has

:30:28.:30:33.

happened". We reached the man at the centre of those allegations this

:30:34.:30:36.

evening, a person close to him told us he had been in touch with the

:30:37.:30:39.

police today and that he had no further comment to make. Kent and

:30:40.:30:45.

Medway NHS and Social Scare Partnership Trust told us they were

:30:46.:30:49.

unable to comment on Katherine's face because it happened before the

:30:50.:30:52.

formation of their Trust. But they pointed out that all staff undergo

:30:53.:31:00.

an enhanced disclosure and barring check. You can watch a longer

:31:01.:31:04.

version of that interview on the Five Live website.

:31:05.:31:08.

The Israelis buried their hugely controversial former Prime Minister,

:31:09.:31:13.

Ariel Sharon today. He died this week after spending eight years in a

:31:14.:31:20.

coma. Both Tony Blair and Joe Biden praised Mr Sharon today after a

:31:21.:31:28.

mixed reputation, a reviled military commander and statesman prepared to

:31:29.:31:33.

withdraw Israeli settlers from the Gaza strip. The Middle East he left

:31:34.:31:36.

was a different place to the Middle East when he entered his coma. We

:31:37.:31:44.

report. He was a man with two faces. The

:31:45.:31:49.

renegade military commander with a reputation for disobeying orders,

:31:50.:31:54.

who reinvented himself as a political peace maker of sorts. He

:31:55.:31:59.

is the right-wing politician who contributed a lot into the

:32:00.:32:04.

irresponsible policy of the settlements, on the other hand he's

:32:05.:32:08.

the only politician who managed to do the almost impossible which is

:32:09.:32:12.

evacuate the settlements. To Palestinians he became a butcher and

:32:13.:32:16.

war criminal. But to many Israelis he was a hero. Ariel Sharon

:32:17.:32:23.

epitomised the Zionist dream, in a sense that he was brought up on a

:32:24.:32:26.

farming community and became a soldier, a very brave soldier. The

:32:27.:32:31.

one that showed the initiatives and was not afraid of actually

:32:32.:32:36.

confronting the danger that the Israelis faced at the time. Much

:32:37.:32:42.

like the nation of Israel itself, Ariel Sharon was born on a

:32:43.:32:46.

collective farm, on a Jewish settlement in British-mandated

:32:47.:32:52.

Palestinian. In many ways his life mirrored that of the country he

:32:53.:32:55.

helped to forge and went on to lead. As a soldier and later as a

:32:56.:32:58.

politician he had a hand in every single war that Israel fought. As

:32:59.:33:06.

Defence Minister in 1982 he masterminded the invasion of

:33:07.:33:10.

Lebanon. An Israeli inquiry found Ariel Sharon indirectly but

:33:11.:33:14.

personally responsible for a three-day massacre by Christian

:33:15.:33:19.

militia men, allied to Israel. Hundreds, maybe thousands of

:33:20.:33:22.

Palestinian civilians were slaughtered. But by then his

:33:23.:33:26.

reputation as a brilliant military commander was already cemented. In

:33:27.:33:32.

1967 he captured large parts of the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt. Six

:33:33.:33:36.

years later during the Yom Kippur war, he encircled the Egyptian army

:33:37.:33:41.

on a daring raid, which turned the tide of war in Israel's favour. Many

:33:42.:33:47.

claim he saved the country by crossing the Suez Canal in the

:33:48.:33:53.

middle of the war in spite of precise instructions by his

:33:54.:33:58.

commander not to do it. And that's where he gained basically his

:33:59.:34:02.

legacy. These were the wars that shaped the future of Israel and of

:34:03.:34:11.

the Middle East for decades to come. In the 1990s, Ariel Sharon presided

:34:12.:34:16.

over the largest expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and

:34:17.:34:20.

Gaza since Israel occupied them in 1967. But his Prime Minister in --

:34:21.:34:34.

as Prime Minister in 2005 just before his illness, he shocked

:34:35.:34:39.

Israelis, without consulting the Palestinians, he withdrew from Gaza.

:34:40.:34:45.

He framed it in Israel's security interests. But many said only

:34:46.:34:49.

Sharon, with his reputation could have got away with it. Some believe

:34:50.:34:53.

had he continued in office he would have gone further still. He probably

:34:54.:34:57.

would have pulled out completely from the West Bank, but he would put

:34:58.:35:03.

much more effort into reaching an agreement with the Palestinians in

:35:04.:35:10.

which most of the West Bank is evacuated and a Palestinian state is

:35:11.:35:19.

established. The Arab Spring shattered the geopolitical

:35:20.:35:23.

certainties that had become the Middle East's uneasy status quo. As

:35:24.:35:30.

dictators fell and power brokers saw their country descend into Civil

:35:31.:35:34.

War, Ariel Sharon lay alive but unconscious in a hospital bed. It is

:35:35.:35:40.

tempting to speculate how Sharon right have reacted to the events of

:35:41.:35:44.

the Arab Spring, could he have steered Israel to a more pivitol

:35:45.:35:48.

war, had he not been wiped off the political map by that stroke. We

:35:49.:35:52.

will never know. As it is the conflict between the Israelis and

:35:53.:35:54.

Palestinians, once so central to the region has now taken a back seat to

:35:55.:36:01.

other concerns. I don't think he could have changing anything that

:36:02.:36:08.

happened around Israel in the Arab Spring. Most will admit that the

:36:09.:36:13.

Arab Spring was a humbling experience for a country that used

:36:14.:36:16.

to believe it could almost shape the Middle East and be in control. For

:36:17.:36:21.

the first time since 2011 it became obvious that it is very limited

:36:22.:36:26.

impacting at what happens around and the world as Israel knew it

:36:27.:36:30.

disappeared. They were left to deal with a very different Middle East.

:36:31.:36:36.

Ariel Sharon's body was laid to rest today at his ranch near Gaza. In his

:36:37.:36:41.

day it was a truth universally acknowledged that if you solved the

:36:42.:36:45.

conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians you solved the

:36:46.:36:48.

problems of the Middle East. Few still believe that today. In a

:36:49.:36:54.

moment we will speak to Mostafa Barghouti, a member of the

:36:55.:36:57.

Palestinian Legislative Council who is in Ramallah, first joining us in

:36:58.:37:02.

the studio is Daniel Taub, the Israeli ambassador to the UK. You

:37:03.:37:07.

worked with Ariel Sharon, did you like him? I did, and I have to say I

:37:08.:37:11.

think everybody who met him, particularly because he had such a

:37:12.:37:16.

clear public persona was really quite taken aback to see what a

:37:17.:37:20.

multidimensional person he actually was. He was somebody who loved music

:37:21.:37:24.

and his food, of course. He was somebody, if you asked him, he had

:37:25.:37:28.

been a soldier a politician, but if you asked him what he really was he

:37:29.:37:32.

would have probably said a farmer. He was never happier than when he

:37:33.:37:36.

was on his ranch in the Negev, he felt very, very close to the land.

:37:37.:37:41.

When you look at the Middle East he left, a few days ago, and you look

:37:42.:37:48.

at how it was when he suffered and went into the coma. They are very

:37:49.:37:51.

different places aren't they? They are different places, but it is

:37:52.:37:57.

interesting you know, your journalists were decribing different

:37:58.:38:00.

faces of Ariel Sharon, I think there is a fairly consistent theme that

:38:01.:38:04.

would still be relevant today even in the new Middle East. The guiding

:38:05.:38:09.

principle of his life is how can we ensure that we remain a stable and

:38:10.:38:15.

secure society in this conflict. He said it himself, he said we are in a

:38:16.:38:19.

region that is merciless to the weak, but we cannot ensure our

:38:20.:38:23.

security only through the sword. And it was really between those two

:38:24.:38:29.

perameter, between ensuring your security and trying to reach out.

:38:30.:38:32.

This is what he did in Gaza and the north of the West Bank, where he

:38:33.:38:35.

uprooted settlers. He was trying to find the way, in difficult

:38:36.:38:39.

circumstances, we could try to find an accommodation. I suppose the

:38:40.:38:43.

irony is that he was the guy that taught Israelis that we needed to

:38:44.:38:46.

reach out for peace, and unfortunately the legacy of that

:38:47.:38:49.

disengagment, where unfortunately that land we pulled out of turned

:38:50.:38:53.

into launching pads for missiles against us has really unfortunately

:38:54.:38:57.

made it much harder for us to reach out in that way at the moment. It is

:38:58.:39:01.

interesting that his successes haven't acted -- successors haven't

:39:02.:39:07.

acted as he has? I'm not sure that is true. We have a leader at the

:39:08.:39:10.

moment, Prime Minister Netanyahu, in very much the same way has

:39:11.:39:13.

recognised and spoken frankly about the fact that we need an

:39:14.:39:15.

accommodation with the Palestinians, we have to compromise on our dreams

:39:16.:39:20.

for their dreams. He's releasing as we are speaking now, and we have

:39:21.:39:24.

spoken about it in the past, very brutal terrorists, in a sense in way

:39:25.:39:29.

to make a gesture to strengthen the Palestinian Authority, and to try to

:39:30.:39:32.

create the environment to reach a peace together. Thank you. Let's

:39:33.:39:35.

just have a quick chat now to Mostafa Barghouti, who is in the

:39:36.:39:39.

West Bank. Mr Barghouti, when you hear today, Joe Biden talking about

:39:40.:39:45.

Israel, Palestine as a possible island of stability in the Middle

:39:46.:39:48.

East, you do realise what a huge change has occurred, don't you? Well

:39:49.:40:00.

I'm sure, I'm not sure this is an area of stability, I don't think you

:40:01.:40:05.

could call a system of colonialism and apartheid and the loest

:40:06.:40:13.

occupation in modern history that. In contrary to what was said I don't

:40:14.:40:16.

think Ariel Sharon will be remembered as a peace-maker but

:40:17.:40:21.

rather as a warrior as he described himself. For many Palestinians he's

:40:22.:40:26.

a war criminal, responsible for several crimes and several

:40:27.:40:33.

massacres, starting in the 19 50s, to the one that he was found guilty,

:40:34.:40:40.

skilling Egyptian soldiers when they were prisoners of war, et cetera, et

:40:41.:40:46.

cetera. The most unfortunate thing the language of force is still used

:40:47.:40:49.

and we are still under occupation and we still suffer from a system of

:40:50.:40:52.

apartheid that is much worse than what prevailed in South Africa. I

:40:53.:40:55.

don't think we can call this stability. When you look at the

:40:56.:40:59.

political situation that you find yourselves in now, and you look at

:41:00.:41:05.

what has happened to all the once powerful states, Egypt, Syria,

:41:06.:41:11.

surrounding Palestine, is it easier now to try to make some sort of

:41:12.:41:16.

political progress or is it a lot more difficult? I think, I think the

:41:17.:41:22.

situation in the Middle East is a situation of people struggling to

:41:23.:41:28.

achieve democracy. I think most Arab people have revolted and will

:41:29.:41:32.

continue to revolt until they achieve what they deserve which is

:41:33.:41:37.

democracy and proper representation of the people. Tunisia represents a

:41:38.:41:43.

good example of peaceful revolution. Egypt is a different story, Syria is

:41:44.:41:50.

drowning in a terrible Civil War. But in Palestine also we have a very

:41:51.:41:54.

important struggle. A struggle of people who decided to turn to

:41:55.:42:01.

nonviolence and we are conducting our own non--violent resistance

:42:02.:42:06.

today, to end the occupation and to achieve independence and achieve

:42:07.:42:13.

democracy as well. I believe that the turmoil in the Middle East

:42:14.:42:19.

should not distract us from the fact that real stability in the Middle

:42:20.:42:23.

East can't be achieved without solving the Palestinian issue. Thank

:42:24.:42:27.

you, ambassador a quick last word from you. The situation, the

:42:28.:42:32.

political situation that has arisen now, where you have this turmoil

:42:33.:42:37.

engulfing all those many states around the region. And the attempts

:42:38.:42:45.

to make peace within Israel and McAllister stein, seen once as --

:42:46.:42:52.

McAllister Palestine, seen once as the key to the problems in the

:42:53.:42:56.

Middle East? I don't think it was ever the key to the Middle East, we

:42:57.:42:59.

have to solve our conflict, because we have to, but we shouldn't delude

:43:00.:43:03.

ourselves that every other part of the Middle East will fall into

:43:04.:43:06.

place. One of the lessons we can draw from the life of Sharon,

:43:07.:43:10.

relevant across the region, you need courage to defend yourselves but

:43:11.:43:14.

also courage to make peace. Part of that courage is to tell the truth to

:43:15.:43:18.

your own people. That is what he did repeatedly, speaking tou words to

:43:19.:43:23.

his own constituency. And I think our neighbours could do a great

:43:24.:43:26.

service if they were to speak to their peoples in the same way.

:43:27.:43:29.

Straight after this programme there is an hour world special about the

:43:30.:43:35.

life of Ariel Sharon. Reports came in shortly before they came on air

:43:36.:43:41.

that Google has made a rather extravagant post-Christmas purchase,

:43:42.:43:45.

our technology editor is in San Francisco and can tell us more. What

:43:46.:43:49.

have they bought? They have bought a company called Nest, around for a

:43:50.:43:53.

few years now, they make connected home devices and Google have bought

:43:54.:43:59.

them for the Princely sum of $3. 2 billion. It confirms Google is no

:44:00.:44:03.

longer a search engine company, it is about machine-learning. What do I

:44:04.:44:07.

mean by that, it is about getting computers and machines to do things

:44:08.:44:12.

that are useful and adapt themselves to every day life. Nest make this

:44:13.:44:18.

thermostat, it is not lit up or connected to anything, with this

:44:19.:44:21.

connected to a smartphone you can connect to your boiler or central

:44:22.:44:24.

heating and control it from anywhere in the world. It learns about your

:44:25.:44:28.

activities and habits, it knows when you leave and come home. It adapts

:44:29.:44:32.

itself to that. They make this, which is a carbon non-knock side and

:44:33.:44:41.

-- monoxide and smoke detector. This passes what Larry Page said, Google

:44:42.:44:47.

have said today, the toothbrush test that Larry Page sets for Google to

:44:48.:44:51.

get involved with, it has to be useful and used daily by people.

:44:52.:44:56.

Thank you very much indeed. That's it for tonight, the outcome of the

:44:57.:45:01.

Poetry Book Society's TS Elliot Prize was announced tonight. It has

:45:02.:45:06.

been won by Sinead Morrissey, Poet Laureate of Belfast. Her collection,

:45:07.:45:11.

Parallax, was inspired by an image of David Niven on an escalator of

:45:12.:45:19.

all things. Here she is reading Lighthouse. My son is awake at ten,

:45:20.:45:25.

stretched out in his bunk, wired and watchful. The end of August. Already

:45:26.:45:32.

the high flung daylight sky of our northern solstice dulls earlier and

:45:33.:45:39.

earlier to a clouded bowl. His Star of David lamp and plastic moon have

:45:40.:45:44.

turned the dusk to dark outside his room. Across the Loch, where ferries

:45:45.:45:54.

venture blythly, and once a cruiseship, massive as a palace,

:45:55.:46:01.

inched its brilliant decks to open sea, a lighthouse starts its own

:46:02.:46:07.

night-long address in fractured signalling. It blinks and bats the

:46:08.:46:13.

swing ball of its beam, then stands to catch, then hurls it out again,

:46:14.:46:21.

beyond its Parallax. He counts each creamy loop inside his head, each

:46:22.:46:28.

well black interval, and thinks it just for him. This gesture from a

:46:29.:46:34.

world that can't be entered, the two of them, partly curtained, partly

:46:35.:46:42.

seen, upheld in a sort of boy-talk conversation. No-one else can hear.

:46:43.:46:52.

That private place, it answers with birds and slatted windows. I've been

:46:53.:46:59.

there. #6 Hello, an icy start to Tuesday,

:47:00.:47:09.

behind

:47:10.:47:11.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS