21/01/2014 Newsnight


21/01/2014

The Lib Dems continue not to deal with Lord Rennard, David Baddiel on Nicolas Anelka, 12 hours in an A&E, and the offshore world of China's elite. With Kirsty Wark.


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Lord Rennard fights back, threatening legal action against his

:00:11.:00:16.

party over sexual harassment claims. Is this the biggest crisis ever to

:00:17.:00:20.

engulf the Liberal Democrats. One senior figure in the party tells

:00:21.:00:24.

me a court case would be like Lord Rennard pulling the Pina out of the

:00:25.:00:29.

grenade he's holding. He will hurt others but do more damage to

:00:30.:00:32.

himself. Nicolas Anelka is charged by the FA

:00:33.:00:40.

over his infamous Quennelle gesture, David Baddiel says when it comes to

:00:41.:00:43.

racism in football there is a double standard in play. If I had made some

:00:44.:00:47.

kind of anti-immigration gesture and said that was in support of my

:00:48.:00:51.

friend Nick Griffin, people would say that doesn't make it OK. Nigel

:00:52.:00:58.

Farage has been haunt bid his members insulting women, talking

:00:59.:01:02.

about gay marriage and floods and talking about bongo bongo land. Can

:01:03.:01:07.

he clean up his party's act without wiping it out. Here is the man with

:01:08.:01:12.

the job, Neil Hamilton, the deputy chair of UKIP.

:01:13.:01:20.

God evening, it is hard to believe -- good evening, it is hard to

:01:21.:01:23.

believe that the Liberal Democrats are party of Government when their

:01:24.:01:27.

handling of the Rennard row is so buy Sandt time. In the latest

:01:28.:01:35.

episode -- byzantine, Lord Rennard is threatening to start legal

:01:36.:01:39.

proceedings against his party. Our political editor is here with us,

:01:40.:01:46.

Emily, it just keeps giving? Only the Lib Dems, one put it, could have

:01:47.:01:51.

a sex scandal that didn't involve sex, but culminated in what feels

:01:52.:02:02.

like a leadership cry crisis. They are worried about how bloody this is

:02:03.:02:06.

getting. Lord Rennard announced he was a step closer to legal action

:02:07.:02:11.

against his own party, applying for an injunction to stop internal

:02:12.:02:16.

proceedings against him. This is from yesterday when he refused to

:02:17.:02:20.

apologise to the women who claimed sexual harassment. One key figure in

:02:21.:02:23.

the party put it like this, a court case, they said, would be like Chris

:02:24.:02:28.

Rennard pulling the Pina out of a grenade he -- the Pina pin out of a

:02:29.:02:35.

grenade's holding he would hurt others but do more damage to

:02:36.:02:39.

himself. We don't know the direction it will go in, but it has gone too

:02:40.:02:43.

far to know how to stop it. Earlier we heard from the former party

:02:44.:02:50.

leader, the liberals Lord Steel, he told us the only way out of the

:02:51.:02:54.

situation was to reverse yesterday's decision. Until the party withdraws

:02:55.:02:58.

its suspension it really is impossible to get the sides

:02:59.:03:02.

together, whether around table or not to dream up some form of

:03:03.:03:07.

apology. But I'm sure that it is possible, given goodwill, and

:03:08.:03:10.

frankly it should have been done years ago. The idea that we now have

:03:11.:03:13.

a third inquiry is simply ridiculous. And where is Nick Clegg

:03:14.:03:18.

in all this today? I get the sense the leadership are slightly baffled

:03:19.:03:22.

by all of this. Those close to Nick Clegg say it is not him demanding

:03:23.:03:27.

the apology, it is not a leadership thing. He's sticking to the

:03:28.:03:30.

recommendation that was made, don't forget, by the judicial findings, by

:03:31.:03:34.

Alastair Webster, in that report that came out at the end of last

:03:35.:03:38.

week. Lord Rennard was told to, and these are quotes "reflect on his

:03:39.:03:45.

behaviour and apology guise". Nick Clegg -- reflect on his behaviour

:03:46.:03:49.

and apologise", and Nick Clegg believes that should be publicly

:03:50.:03:54.

made. We heard the leader had learned of Lord Rennard's action

:03:55.:03:58.

through the media. There hadn't been contact between them, we know there

:03:59.:04:02.

hasn't been contact for a year, and people in the party have been acting

:04:03.:04:08.

as go-betweens. There is a story in the Telegraph, without citing any

:04:09.:04:11.

words it suggests that Nick Clegg's wife, Miriam, is understood to have

:04:12.:04:14.

raised concerns with her husband that the party had let down female

:04:15.:04:19.

activists by failing to take their concerns seriously. She is not

:04:20.:04:22.

quoted. That is an understanding of whether she had an involvement.

:04:23.:04:25.

There is a sense not necessarily of a generational one, I wouldn't want

:04:26.:04:29.

to say there is an ageist divide going on, but there is some sense

:04:30.:04:33.

that those in the party that have moved forward, that are taking this

:04:34.:04:39.

seriously, the women's concerns seriously are keen to hear that

:04:40.:04:43.

apology, and no other sense of mediation can condition until that

:04:44.:04:47.

comes. It all hinges on Lord Rennard himself. I'm joined by Evan Harris,

:04:48.:04:52.

a former front bench MP for the Liberal Democrats, and now a vice

:04:53.:04:55.

chair of their Federal Policy Committee and party activist,

:04:56.:05:00.

Katherine Bavage, who started a Twitter campaign called Hashimotono

:05:01.:05:09.

apologynowhip. Nobody from the Liberal Democrat leadership came to

:05:10.:05:14.

talk to Newsnight. It is the second night they have refused to talk.

:05:15.:05:19.

Lord Rennard appears ready to push this to the brink, no matter how

:05:20.:05:23.

much damage he does? It would appear so, as party member of eight years

:05:24.:05:28.

myself, I think it is matter of great regret he hasn't lisencen't

:05:29.:05:36.

listened to calls from members like -- he hasn't listened to calls from

:05:37.:05:40.

members like myself. We feel the request for the apology was

:05:41.:05:47.

reasonable and he should have made the concession. There are calls for

:05:48.:05:54.

the suspension to be lifted? I'm not sure it can. It is looking at

:05:55.:06:01.

whether or not he hud looks a if he had brought the party into dis

:06:02.:06:06.

should go ahead I think. Nobody is prepared to talk about it,s to

:06:07.:06:12.

byzantine nobody has a handle about what is going on? Certain aspects

:06:13.:06:16.

have been blown out of proportion. What is agreed is what was said to

:06:17.:06:21.

be said by Miriam Nick Clegg's wife and presumably the Telegraph have

:06:22.:06:26.

got sources inside the house. It is accepted by the Liberal Democrats

:06:27.:06:31.

that the failure to act on these complaints at the time they were

:06:32.:06:33.

made was a failure. It was a scandal. The leader, the President,

:06:34.:06:37.

everyone has said that, and there was a report... Until Katherine

:06:38.:06:42.

started last Friday, pushing for it... . This was accepted in

:06:43.:06:56.

February, last year. That was where the report was made so never before

:06:57.:07:02.

would this happen. If I could explain, so, on Thursday we waited

:07:03.:07:06.

to see what sort of announcements were coming from the party

:07:07.:07:09.

leadership. They were, you know, not particularly strong low-worded so we

:07:10.:07:13.

decided the best thing we could do is write we really felt he had to

:07:14.:07:17.

make that commitment to the apology. It was only after our letter went

:07:18.:07:23.

on-line that Nick's statement came out and it was stronger. The

:07:24.:07:26.

activists were ahead of the leadership on this. I think Nick

:07:27.:07:29.

Clegg's position is no apology to whip. He has made that clear. We are

:07:30.:07:33.

glad with that. There is very few people, David Steel is one, there

:07:34.:07:40.

are few who disagree with that provision, but there is a process.

:07:41.:07:44.

Why not come on and tell us about it? Because there is a process.

:07:45.:07:49.

Please! If legal action is threatened, because of a poor

:07:50.:07:52.

process. He wouldn't come on last night and there was no legal action

:07:53.:07:56.

threatened last night. It has always been threatened. It has been made

:07:57.:08:01.

quite clear by Lord Rennard's legal advisers that there is a legal

:08:02.:08:05.

threat. It is very sad that there is this stand-off, the outcome of this

:08:06.:08:09.

will either be a senior member of the Liberal Democrats expelled from

:08:10.:08:14.

the party or he is not. Let me just, that may be, we don't know. That

:08:15.:08:17.

That is not headline news five days running it is a serious matter. It

:08:18.:08:21.

says something about the Liberal Democrats, I wonder had it not been

:08:22.:08:24.

for what happened last week, what do you think would have been the

:08:25.:08:27.

outcome? Well, the concern was that the whole Marmite get brushed into

:08:28.:08:32.

the carpet. There was an independent report, do you accept, Katherine, we

:08:33.:08:36.

need to have this debate. Do you accept there was, I'm on your side I

:08:37.:08:40.

agree with you. There was an independent report that said that

:08:41.:08:43.

while there was not sufficient evidence to meet the standard of

:08:44.:08:46.

proof to make a finding, there was a need for him to apologise and to

:08:47.:08:50.

reflect on his behaviour. And he didn't? Indeed, and that's why he

:08:51.:08:53.

has been suspended pending an inquiry now as to whether that

:08:54.:08:57.

refusal is bringing the party into disrepute. That process must take

:08:58.:09:01.

its course. You can't judge it now. You say the process has to take its

:09:02.:09:06.

course. I'm asking a broader, more general question, that his decision

:09:07.:09:10.

to pursue legal action is devastating for the party, isn't it?

:09:11.:09:13.

If he takes legal action, if he takes legal action. And wins? What

:09:14.:09:18.

will the women in the party think, Katherine? This is a hypothetical. I

:09:19.:09:23.

don't think he's likely to prevent a due process going ahead. And this is

:09:24.:09:27.

just my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that an injunction to

:09:28.:09:31.

prevent due process, following a QC's report. It is regrettable. I

:09:32.:09:35.

just want to put a question to Katherine? We have to look at the

:09:36.:09:38.

other part of that independent report that said the full

:09:39.:09:43.

omplainants' description of the events was broadly credible. I don't

:09:44.:09:46.

think the process has given enough weight to how that might make party

:09:47.:09:53.

members feel, and not just women, a lot of my members are men, everyone

:09:54.:09:58.

needs to be respected. Do you think if this is not resolved for the four

:09:59.:10:02.

women concerned and all the women activists in the party, that women

:10:03.:10:06.

will not want to be within the Liberal Democrats, they will not see

:10:07.:10:09.

it as the place they thought it was? We have heard some people talk about

:10:10.:10:12.

resignations and cutting up their membership. I don't want to do that,

:10:13.:10:16.

I want to stay in the party and fight to make it safer. Would you

:10:17.:10:19.

feel if Lord Rennard came back without a resolution you would be

:10:20.:10:23.

welcome in that party? It would be really dis fitting, and the

:10:24.:10:27.

leadership need to work with members. They couldn't do any more.

:10:28.:10:31.

They have done the inquiry and now a second inquiry. We have to stop now.

:10:32.:10:37.

In a moment, we take a race car legend to Britain's first motorway

:10:38.:10:47.

pub. The West Brom football player,

:10:48.:10:49.

Nicolas Anelka, has been charged by the FA for making a salute widely

:10:50.:10:54.

regarded as being anti-semetic, after scoring against West Ham

:10:55.:10:58.

United last month. Accusations of anti-semitism are not restricted to

:10:59.:11:02.

players on the field. Today three fans have been charged with using

:11:03.:11:07.

the word "yid" at Spurs matches. Zoopla, the property website has

:11:08.:11:12.

already announced it won't renew a ?3 million sponsorship of the club.

:11:13.:11:16.

Newsnight has found at least two other sponsors are considering

:11:17.:11:19.

pulling their support too. Both Holler Watches and Jack Wolfskin

:11:20.:11:24.

told us that ending their relationship with West Brom is now a

:11:25.:11:26.

real possibility. We have been talking to a comedian

:11:27.:11:32.

with a keen interest in Anelka's arm gesture.

:11:33.:11:35.

Nicolas Anelka, waiting for kick-off in last night's home game against

:11:36.:11:39.

Everton. The striker wore the colours of West Brom and their

:11:40.:11:43.

sponsor Zoopla. He could be banned for a minimum of five games after

:11:44.:11:48.

the FA charged him with making an improper gesture, aggravated by a

:11:49.:11:54.

reference to race or religion. That follows this infamous "Quennelle" as

:11:55.:12:02.

it is known, said to be some by an inveted Nazi salute, during a match

:12:03.:12:06.

last month. Anelka said he was merely showing support for a friend,

:12:07.:12:12.

a controversial French comedian, whose shows have been banned over

:12:13.:12:17.

alleged anti-semitism. Newsnight discussed the case with David

:12:18.:12:20.

Baddiel, comedian turned novelist and film maker, who is a Chelsea

:12:21.:12:25.

supporter and has campaigned against anti-semitism in football. I didn't

:12:26.:12:28.

know what the gesture was when he made it, as I'm sure most people

:12:29.:12:33.

didn't know. I had never seen it before, I had to be told it is a

:12:34.:12:38.

Quennelle, and that is an inveted Nazi salute. So I didn't

:12:39.:12:43.

particularly have a thought about it at all. But then I think where I

:12:44.:12:48.

became more interested in it was in the fact that Anelka defended

:12:49.:12:54.

himself by saying he was only trying to show for more his friend Judon.

:12:55.:13:03.

He is, I'm aware of is an anti-semetic person. What is odd

:13:04.:13:08.

about it, because it became an acceptable defence, Anelka seemed to

:13:09.:13:13.

be saying it is not anti-semitism it is in support of my friend the

:13:14.:13:20.

enormous antisemite. I thought that is not right here. I thought if I

:13:21.:13:25.

had made some kind of anti-immigration gesture and said it

:13:26.:13:29.

was in support of my friend Nick Griffin, people would say it is not

:13:30.:13:35.

OK. But, I think, to be fair to Nicolas Anelka, I think probably the

:13:36.:13:42.

greater resonance of what someone like Dudon is doing is not something

:13:43.:13:49.

there is much support for. In France, as far as I can make out,

:13:50.:13:53.

anti-establishment behaviour from people like Dudon has become very

:13:54.:13:58.

mixed up with anti-semetic behaviour, such that when I tweeted

:13:59.:14:02.

about this I tweeted about how it seems if you are supporting Dudon

:14:03.:14:06.

then you are anti-semetic in some way. A French person tweeted me back

:14:07.:14:11.

saying you don't understand, it is just anti-Government, anti-French

:14:12.:14:15.

Government and anti-the Zionist cab balance. I thought -- kabal. In my

:14:16.:14:22.

sense you are getting close to anti-semitism in my understanding of

:14:23.:14:26.

the Zionist kabal. Is it for complicated and nuanced because

:14:27.:14:33.

Dudon is a comedian and it is a matter of free speech censorship

:14:34.:14:43.

rather than a rabble rousing thing. I haven't seen him, he's not a

:14:44.:14:48.

comedian like Michael McIntyre is a comitteedia. 's a provoke -- a

:14:49.:14:53.

comedian. He's provocative in France, and he should totally be

:14:54.:14:58.

fine to do that. What is complicated is he has done a film called The

:14:59.:15:06.

Anti--Semite, it is not ironic, it is very anti-semetic. His targets

:15:07.:15:10.

are the French establishment and Jews. It is not like he attacks

:15:11.:15:15.

everyone equally, and as I say, there is an alignment in his mind

:15:16.:15:20.

and his supporters' mind between the French establishment and the Jews. I

:15:21.:15:23.

don't know if he should be banned or not, I'm not that interested in

:15:24.:15:27.

whether things should be banned. Although I think one of the see

:15:28.:15:30.

things, and this is often missed out, is once you start banning

:15:31.:15:34.

things, so if you are banning people for using racist language towards

:15:35.:15:38.

black people, or racist language towards Asian people, then you also

:15:39.:15:43.

have to ban them for using racist language towards Jewish people.

:15:44.:15:48.

For the FA there are two problems, they have to balance the fact that

:15:49.:15:52.

the player is saying I didn't intend it to be anti-semetic. I have no

:15:53.:15:58.

reason to disbelieve him. And then there is another issue, which I

:15:59.:16:03.

think is going on here, which is I think people, I think the guardians

:16:04.:16:09.

of antiracism do feel that it is more complex when the person who

:16:10.:16:14.

might be being racist is themselves from an ethnic minority,

:16:15.:16:17.

particularly a black person. It is more complicated for them, they

:16:18.:16:21.

think we don't want to be seen to be attacking a black person when our

:16:22.:16:28.

job is to protect ethnic minorities. Zoopla won't renew their sponsorship

:16:29.:16:32.

of Anelka's club, West Bromwich Albion. One thing I think is weird

:16:33.:16:35.

is all the papers are really telling you that the head of Zoopla is a

:16:36.:16:42.

Jewish businessman. I haven't read about this story without the papers

:16:43.:16:45.

talking about this Jewish businessman. I would like to think

:16:46.:16:50.

that you could be of any race or religion and object to someone doing

:16:51.:16:55.

a Nazi salute as a celebration. A lot of people shout this word, it

:16:56.:17:00.

begins with "Y". David Baddiel made a film for the football authorities

:17:01.:17:05.

urging fans not to chant the word "yid" it is often heard at White

:17:06.:17:11.

Hart Lane, why there is Jewish support. Some home fans use the "Y"

:17:12.:17:16.

word themselves saying they are reclaiming it. Spurs fans are

:17:17.:17:20.

correct in saying they think they do it in a different way to the way

:17:21.:17:25.

Chelsea fans do it, that is right. All that has to go in the mix where

:17:26.:17:31.

you are trying to get into the place where anti-semitism isn't on the

:17:32.:17:35.

terraces any more. It is nuanced and you have to think the best way round

:17:36.:17:38.

it. Hopefully it is all heading in the right direction, but there are

:17:39.:17:45.

bumps along the way. Nigel Farage likes to lead UKIP from the front,

:17:46.:17:49.

to set the tone as it were. Think of his speech to the City, apining that

:17:50.:17:54.

women taking time off to have children are less valuable to

:17:55.:17:58.

employers. Others have distinguished themselves talking about Bongo Bongo

:17:59.:18:03.

Land, and one councillor distinguished himself saying the

:18:04.:18:07.

floods were due to the decision to legalise gay marriage. This week

:18:08.:18:12.

their Scottish interim chairman is leading an anti-sectarian charity,

:18:13.:18:18.

after decribing a local authority for gays, and communists. All this

:18:19.:18:24.

after Nigel Farage said he wanted to professionalise the party. I will

:18:25.:18:28.

ask the chairman if you can change the DNA of UKIP. First Emily Maitlis

:18:29.:18:34.

again. Gay anthem like this doesn't just

:18:35.:18:39.

become a chart crusade for no reason.

:18:40.:18:41.

# I'm gonna go out # I'm gonna let myself

:18:42.:18:47.

# Get absolutely soaking wet And the reason it could be set to climb is

:18:48.:18:53.

this. What? Well not this exactly, but this man, David Sylvester,

:18:54.:18:58.

formerly of the Conservatives, now UKIP. He said at the weekend the

:18:59.:19:02.

country had been beset by storms since gay marriage was passed into

:19:03.:19:05.

law. Public outcry, certainly on Twitter was palpable. Mr Sylvester

:19:06.:19:11.

looked as if he would survive the day. He didn't, he was suspended by

:19:12.:19:15.

UKIP after defying a request not to do further interviews. And the

:19:16.:19:20.

curious thing here is not, dare I say, an unusual view expressed by a

:19:21.:19:24.

UKIP member. No the curious thing here is the swift action at the top

:19:25.:19:28.

of the party. UKIP is proud of its man on the

:19:29.:19:33.

streets, or man in the pub image, but an insider understands that a

:19:34.:19:39.

campaign is quietly under foot to professionalise the party, driven by

:19:40.:19:43.

the fact that its membership has widened and changed. You sir are a

:19:44.:19:47.

racist. Why? It is a big leap for a party that has, up until now, dare

:19:48.:19:52.

today say and do the unsayable. Disgraceful, you are disgraceful.

:19:53.:19:56.

Who could forget the larger than life, Godfrey Bloom, seen whacking

:19:57.:20:01.

my colleague, Michael Crick in happier times. He called countries

:20:02.:20:06.

that received Government aid Bongo Bongo Land, Godfrey, not Michael. He

:20:07.:20:11.

survived many of his outbursts but eventually lost the whip in

:20:12.:20:16.

September. Earlier today I spoke to the North West ME P candidate who

:20:17.:20:21.

said it was imperative that people could be allowed to speak their

:20:22.:20:25.

mind. Our democracy is suffering from a deficit of the truth. If you

:20:26.:20:31.

nail people down and the media nail every difference you damage

:20:32.:20:36.

democracy. Last week Mr Slaughter suspended his own Twitter and

:20:37.:20:38.

Facebook accounts, I asked was it anything he said or regretted. The

:20:39.:20:42.

tweet where he referred to the US President as "Islam-Obama". Why call

:20:43.:20:51.

him Islam-Obama, what did you mean? We seem to be going down a route we

:20:52.:20:56.

should move off, it is out of context again. It is a tweet, it is

:20:57.:21:02.

irrelevant, in effect. What we are talking about is policy. And we're

:21:03.:21:07.

talking about the macro view of the world and what is going on. UKIP

:21:08.:21:11.

will tell you that the media concentrates disproportionally on

:21:12.:21:13.

their crazies, when they can be found in every party. But the fact

:21:14.:21:18.

there does seem to be some attempt at a January des to go is not

:21:19.:21:24.

insignificant. Climate change is an area they have been told to approach

:21:25.:21:27.

with more nuance rather than flat denials. One senior UKIP member told

:21:28.:21:35.

me we don't need to be the party of pub bores who think they know better

:21:36.:21:39.

than the scientists. He said he can't see UKIP becoming an ultra

:21:40.:21:44.

politically correct party, but it is about limiting self- ndulgence. It

:21:45.:21:50.

may sound like a strategy any party needs to implement. That is becoming

:21:51.:21:55.

serious about power. But for some of the UKIP old guard it is deep

:21:56.:22:00.

disappointment. They point to the top of the party and say it is

:22:01.:22:06.

detatched from the base it first stood

:22:07.:22:21.

If more power beckons, the dichotomy is this, how to maintain their

:22:22.:22:33.

position as outsiders in UK politics without letting candidates lose the

:22:34.:22:39.

plot. UKIP members love their smoke filled rooms, they just want to be

:22:40.:22:46.

on the inside of them. Neil Hamilton was a Tory minister who fell from

:22:47.:22:51.

grace now he's UKIP's deputy chair, how does the new UKIP differ from

:22:52.:22:57.

the old UKIP? It doesn't, what we have heard this evening is a few

:22:58.:22:59.

individuals who couldn't discipline themselves, knowing how the media

:23:00.:23:02.

are going to report them. They get in the way of the party's message,

:23:03.:23:09.

I'm afraid they have to go. So in effect Mr Slaughter will go, he is

:23:10.:23:15.

the gentleman who said "Islam-Obama's real legacy". What

:23:16.:23:19.

does that mean? First I have heard this evening. Should he go, you have

:23:20.:23:23.

just said people who flout the rules should go? If they get in the way of

:23:24.:23:27.

the party's message, by behaving in a way which is undisciplined, then

:23:28.:23:33.

they must expect to be taken off the air. We are now a mainstream

:23:34.:23:37.

political party, not a fringe political grouping. The bookies are

:23:38.:23:41.

make us favourites to win the European elections. We have a

:23:42.:23:44.

by-election now in Manchester, we are serious contenders in

:23:45.:23:49.

constituencies up and down the country. He's not just an MEP

:23:50.:23:57.

candidate. He also said that the EU floods the UK with immigrants, as a

:23:58.:24:02.

tool of choice to break the UK and force integration, saying that

:24:03.:24:06.

should he go? I won't get into defending or attacking people for

:24:07.:24:09.

their tweets. It is not exactly Lord Rennard is it? Who knows, aren't you

:24:10.:24:13.

meant to be cleaning up the party? David Cameron tweeted the other day

:24:14.:24:18.

that he was part of Nigella's team and almost undermined a legal

:24:19.:24:25.

action. Let's just be clear, you are saying "Islam-Obama" is the same as

:24:26.:24:31.

"team Nigella"? I don't know what that is. Nigel Farage, going to the

:24:32.:24:35.

top, mainstream party, he wants to set the tone, he makes a speech in

:24:36.:24:39.

the City in which he says that women who have children are therefore for

:24:40.:24:44.

less valuable. He didn't say that. He said it is understandable they

:24:45.:24:48.

are paid less, if they go and break their careers having children? What

:24:49.:24:52.

he was talking about was brokerage firms in the City who take on women

:24:53.:24:56.

because of their client list, if they take three or four years off to

:24:57.:25:00.

bring up children, they lose a lot of their clients, so they are less

:25:01.:25:04.

valuable when they come back. Because it is the client list. That

:25:05.:25:08.

is the message that UKIP wants to send out. There is no message. That

:25:09.:25:12.

is just stating a fact. So they should be less valuable? That is a

:25:13.:25:17.

fact. You don't think. The client list is worth what the clients on it

:25:18.:25:22.

are worth. If you have fewer clients, the client list is worth

:25:23.:25:26.

less, that is a simple point he was making. It is acceptable to give

:25:27.:25:29.

them lower salaries? It is not whether it is right or wrong, it is

:25:30.:25:33.

a fact of life. Does your wife agree with that in the party? I always

:25:34.:25:37.

agree with my wife, whether she agrees with me is another matter.

:25:38.:25:41.

Nigel Farage was simply stating a fact, that when a City brokerage

:25:42.:25:48.

firm is taking on a woman or a man, their value to the firm is the value

:25:49.:25:52.

of the client list. If the clients that the woman had at the beginning

:25:53.:25:56.

of her pregnancy are much less valuable at the end of her period

:25:57.:26:01.

she has taken off to bring up children, they will pay her less,

:26:02.:26:07.

that is a fact of life. He wasn't making any equalive judgment about t

:26:08.:26:12.

I read the transcript. There is meant to be a weeding out process of

:26:13.:26:19.

problem candidates. That weeding outprocess is a couple of interns --

:26:20.:26:25.

weeding out process is a couple of interns weeding out on the Internet.

:26:26.:26:32.

We have a tweet, "the Searlely miserable UK staff of immigration

:26:33.:26:37.

are a sign of ruined UK, sack them all". He was probably frustrated by

:26:38.:26:40.

the queue he was. I haven't come across it. You must understand that

:26:41.:26:44.

there is an army of people paid by the mainstream parties, Tories and

:26:45.:26:47.

liberals in particular who are frightened to death at the impact

:26:48.:26:52.

that UKIP is having upon them are being paid to mine into Twitter

:26:53.:26:57.

accounts, into Facebook Major Generals to find -- pages, to find

:26:58.:27:04.

any remark to pervert and put in the headlights to bring down UKIP. They

:27:05.:27:10.

will fail, they can't do it on policy so they are going for the

:27:11.:27:15.

individual. There are grassroots who won't be talked down? We have 33,000

:27:16.:27:21.

members, what is the size of the backlash from those members.

:27:22.:27:23.

Anything from the party putting anything on Twitter is fine. You

:27:24.:27:26.

seem to be suggesting it is just a tweet, it matters not a jot s that

:27:27.:27:32.

the case? If it is emparsing, or breaks the party's -- embarrassing

:27:33.:27:36.

or breaks the party's rules they will face disciplinary action. It is

:27:37.:27:39.

up to individuals to make a complaint in an individual case. I'm

:27:40.:27:42.

not going to talk in general terms because you can't divorce the

:27:43.:27:45.

individual and the remarks he makes from the factual context in which

:27:46.:27:53.

they are made. Thank you. When the going gets rough in A departments

:27:54.:27:58.

through the winter, operations can be farmed out to private health

:27:59.:28:04.

firms. That is what the NHS Medical Director told MPs today in the light

:28:05.:28:08.

of increased pressure and cancelled operations and Accident and

:28:09.:28:13.

Emergency units. The Queen Elizabeth hospital in Birmingham is one of the

:28:14.:28:17.

biggest and busiest in the country. Its catchment has increased 300,000

:28:18.:28:25.

since it open. Right now staff are Atajic SFUL stretch because it has

:28:26.:28:30.

to deal with social issues and it can't turn anyone away. Is SGLFRNLT

:28:31.:28:38.

we are firefighting on the shop floor, we are managing patient flow

:28:39.:28:46.

at crisis level. We have got a really good nor rail and strong

:28:47.:28:49.

team, we do pull together really well. There are times when there is

:28:50.:29:02.

nowhere else to go. Sometimes I want to walk out the door and not come

:29:03.:29:17.

back. Trong team, we do pull together really well. There are

:29:18.:29:19.

times when there is nowhere else to go. Sometimes I want to walk out the

:29:20.:29:22.

door and not come back. So the GP has sent you in today, you have been

:29:23.:29:25.

to see the GP earlier, thank you, if you take a seat you will be called.

:29:26.:29:32.

One was sent by the GP for suicidal talk, the crew didn't tell me she

:29:33.:29:38.

had taken tenantity depressants yesterday -- taken ten

:29:39.:29:46.

antidepressants yesterday. We have an increase in winter, this year we

:29:47.:29:50.

have seen a huge increase in the patient flowing through the

:29:51.:30:18.

department. , this year we have seen a huge increase in the patient

:30:19.:30:20.

flowing through the department. I'm in charge of making sure we meet the

:30:21.:30:24.

guidelines. Then you have people not getting a GP appointment and also

:30:25.:30:30.

feeling that A might serve them better at that time. We have only

:30:31.:30:33.

one cubicle left haven't we, is that right? So one cubicle, one

:30:34.:30:39.

resuscitation bay. We do see a lot of patients come in through to us

:30:40.:30:42.

that may not necessarily need to come to this hospital. What has

:30:43.:30:52.

happened to you? I sort of just, my finger is just misshapen, I was just

:30:53.:30:57.

putting my throw over my sofa and it just went actually, yeah, I just

:30:58.:31:02.

want to make sure I haven't broken it really. I think I just need a

:31:03.:31:08.

splint for it I was told. Let's get you booked in, what is your date of

:31:09.:31:12.

birth. Do you get a lot of people coming in that don't need to come

:31:13.:31:21.

in? Yes. A lot. A lot! Our best one was the few months ago someone

:31:22.:31:29.

coming in with a love bite! Strange. How do you deal with that then?

:31:30.:31:34.

Shocked, take a seat! Wait two hours, to be told off you go. But

:31:35.:31:39.

you can't, you have to book them in, we can't send them away from here.

:31:40.:31:54.

Take him off the scoop while on the scan. As a trauma centre we get a

:31:55.:32:03.

letter to all major traumas, this is a major trauma call. The gentleman

:32:04.:32:07.

was brought in by the ambulance crew, we took handover of this

:32:08.:32:11.

gentleman who was supposed to have fallen top to bottom of the stairs.

:32:12.:32:17.

He had multiple injuries, including to his skull, to his spine, to his

:32:18.:32:23.

best, and to his arm at the time. When I started in emergency medicine

:32:24.:32:30.

as a doctor in 13 years ago, what A is like then is completely

:32:31.:32:35.

different to now. Nowadays we are instigating more treatment in the

:32:36.:32:37.

departments, we are doing for more the patient. It is not a see,

:32:38.:32:43.

assess, admit and Paston the relevant specialties, we are

:32:44.:32:48.

treating more and doing more. You can't remember the name of it? Don't

:32:49.:32:58.

worry darling. Phyllis came to us having been in touch with the GP

:32:59.:33:03.

with pains in her arms which she had an extensive cardiac history and had

:33:04.:33:07.

a pacemaker. The GP wanted her to be checked out thoroughly to see if it

:33:08.:33:13.

was related to her pacemaker. Do you want a sandwich as well? Yes, if you

:33:14.:33:20.

are right. I might as well might I. Make a pig's party of it! When she

:33:21.:33:26.

came in we did all the routine stuff, ECG, blood and various other

:33:27.:33:32.

things. And her pacemaker wasn't working as it should. And it was a

:33:33.:33:40.

good call. There are more demands, I think to some extent the NHS is a

:33:41.:33:46.

victim of its own success. And we regularly hear from people that they

:33:47.:33:50.

hear that the Queen Elizabeth is the place to go. So they travel long

:33:51.:33:55.

distances to come here specifically. So it does add extra pressure, it

:33:56.:34:02.

is, it does put everybody under more pressure. Hello, nice to meet you,

:34:03.:34:12.

I'm a doctor. I work to set up the front door geriatric team here at

:34:13.:34:16.

the Queen Elizabeth. Our aim is to recognise potentially vulnerable

:34:17.:34:18.

older people at the point they arrive at hospital. I have an

:34:19.:34:23.

infection. He was worried about your chest. I never dreamed I would come

:34:24.:34:27.

in today. What we will do, I think you are going out to West Heath, to

:34:28.:34:32.

ward 14. Either myself or a team member will

:34:33.:34:36.

see them at a first opportunity. We look to see why they have attended

:34:37.:34:39.

to hospital. Where we get bottlenecks in the system is the

:34:40.:34:43.

border, the transfer of care between health and social care. As the

:34:44.:34:52.

population has aged, diversified, but living an awful lot longer, it

:34:53.:34:57.

is actually impossible to separate out health and social care, so that

:34:58.:35:00.

model that was put in place when the NHS was founded actually needs to be

:35:01.:35:03.

adjusted to deal with what we have now. We seem to be constantly

:35:04.:35:10.

firefighting on the shop floor, we are managing the patient flow at

:35:11.:35:13.

crisis level. And I think really that has problems in getting them

:35:14.:35:16.

admitted through the hospital system, and getting them discharged

:35:17.:35:21.

into the community services. She has a history of left arm pain.

:35:22.:35:25.

It is incredibly difficult when there is nowhere else for anybody to

:35:26.:35:30.

go. We have used every possible bed in the hospital. It is very

:35:31.:35:38.

frustrating. It is very hard. It is very disheartening as well, because

:35:39.:35:41.

that's not what you want to be doing. You want to give the best you

:35:42.:35:47.

possibly can and more. There are times when you are not able to do

:35:48.:35:58.

that. Every day I actually feel I'm working to my absolute top capacity.

:35:59.:36:03.

That we never have any slack within the system to be able to take a step

:36:04.:36:09.

back and look where we are. Sometimes it actually makes me want

:36:10.:36:13.

to feel as if I want to walk out the door and not bother coming back. But

:36:14.:36:17.

then you go and see some of the patients and you sit down and have a

:36:18.:36:21.

chat to a lady who has been struggling at home but didn't

:36:22.:36:25.

realise she was unwell and we have done something and made her better

:36:26.:36:30.

and got her walking again, and put in bits and pieces at home and

:36:31.:36:34.

someone is going to bring in meals to microwave, and somebody will pop

:36:35.:36:37.

in the morning that make sure she's OK. She's pleased with the plan and

:36:38.:36:41.

we have managed to sort that out quickly and she goes home feeling

:36:42.:36:44.

well again. It is the patients and the good outcomes that keep us

:36:45.:36:55.

going. Professor Keith Willetts is responsible for acute care in the

:36:56.:36:59.

NHS, you were at the Select Committee, you will have heard and

:37:00.:37:04.

know the statistics across England, between 140 and 450 planned

:37:05.:37:08.

operations a day, since the second of January have been cancelled

:37:09.:37:14.

because of the pressure on A Disstress, debilitating? --

:37:15.:37:21.

distressing and debt bill Tating? We are sure that the NHS is under

:37:22.:37:27.

pressure. That is the best and worse of the NHS. Dedicated, caring staff

:37:28.:37:32.

in those circumstances, clearly there is too much pressure in the

:37:33.:37:35.

system. In the short-term we are doing a variety of things to get us

:37:36.:37:39.

through this while we look in the long-term and actually review the

:37:40.:37:43.

whole system to actually decompress the A departments and the

:37:44.:37:46.

hospitals. But in, for example, the Queen Elizabeth hospital, they had

:37:47.:37:51.

to reopen the old 1930s hospital to extend their A to deal with all

:37:52.:37:55.

the patients. But you saw there, and they can't turn anyone away? No.

:37:56.:37:59.

They are dealing with somebody TWHA actually had -- that actual lie had

:38:00.:38:06.

a love bite, and a lady that needed complex social care. It is not that

:38:07.:38:10.

it is fit for purpose, it is not the purpose for which it was intended?

:38:11.:38:15.

Things have changed over time, and you saw two different issues, two

:38:16.:38:21.

people attending A and had the advice and Conservatives that

:38:22.:38:28.

conversation possible outside the hospital they wouldn't have come. We

:38:29.:38:32.

have the urgency care review that I'm leading with Sir Bruce Keogh,

:38:33.:38:36.

the components are how to have self-care and how to do much better

:38:37.:38:40.

on telephone advice for patients and give them the information they need.

:38:41.:38:43.

To be able to put them in touch with clinicians, nurses or dentists,

:38:44.:38:47.

whatever is their problem, so those sorts of issues don't go near A

:38:48.:38:53.

Complex social care? The other half, is the much bigger problem in the

:38:54.:38:59.

winter, it is not people turning up, that is a summer problem. It is

:39:00.:39:03.

complex problems in older people, 40% have dementia now, the issues

:39:04.:39:07.

are all those patients arrive by ambulance, they all need a trolley

:39:08.:39:10.

and ultimately a bed, therefore the hospital is under a very different

:39:11.:39:13.

sort of pressure in the winter. We have to build in a resilience. In

:39:14.:39:17.

the short-term it is the sort of things you saw described there. In

:39:18.:39:21.

the longer term we have to be able to, and many of the older patients

:39:22.:39:24.

as well would be much better managed in the community. So for an elderly

:39:25.:39:29.

patient with dementia, bringing them into the hospital particularly when

:39:30.:39:33.

they need care rather than treatment is worse for them. Even on the Queen

:39:34.:39:37.

Elizabeth Hospital that was built with a kind of capacity to grow in

:39:38.:39:41.

the next 20 years, and it was out of capacity within two years.

:39:42.:39:50.

8,000 peopl -- 78,000 people since Christmas have not been seen within

:39:51.:39:55.

the prescribed time of four hours. That is seen, treated and

:39:56.:39:59.

discharged. Nationally we are into week 41 of the year, it is very

:40:00.:40:03.

difficult, the figures are about comparable with last year, overall

:40:04.:40:09.

this year the 95% target has been met. Let me show you a quick graphic

:40:10.:40:19.

in 2003/04 the capacity in the NHS for A was 16 million, it is now 22

:40:20.:40:23.

million. It was never envisaged to be such a rise. Where has the

:40:24.:40:28.

failure come? Part of that, that is attendances, that is people

:40:29.:40:31.

arriving. Only about 20-25% of those are admitted. So there is a lot we

:40:32.:40:34.

can do about those who arrive, who have the sort of things that perhaps

:40:35.:40:40.

we could manage elsewhere. Some of those we could do better In the

:40:41.:40:44.

short-term, we are running out of time and I want to ask about this.

:40:45.:40:49.

In the Select Committee it was said that you will use private hospitals

:40:50.:40:53.

to push operations, is this the beginning of the privatisation of

:40:54.:40:58.

the NHS? That was brought up at the Health Select Committee, we were

:40:59.:41:01.

asked what we were doing to plan for winter this year. One thing was

:41:02.:41:05.

putting in more money, which we dealt with. The other was to set up

:41:06.:41:09.

the urgent care groups locally, we had urgent care, the local

:41:10.:41:13.

authority, the GPs, hospital and all discussing how we would manage it.

:41:14.:41:16.

One of the things we would look for at resilience, is the deputy chief

:41:17.:41:20.

executive of the NHS actually met with the voluntary sector and the

:41:21.:41:25.

independent sector to look at resilience, where was the spare

:41:26.:41:28.

capacity, the independent sector provides most of the care home beds,

:41:29.:41:31.

they have capacity in the private hospitals, so in the event of

:41:32.:41:34.

needing it we could call on it. That is good resilience planning. Thank

:41:35.:41:38.

you very much, if you want to find out how any major E unit in

:41:39.:41:43.

England and Wales is performing, get all the details on the BBC website.

:41:44.:41:56.

An extraordinary ash Kay of leaked -- cache has been found today of

:41:57.:42:02.

leaked documents. This is an extraordinary story, the

:42:03.:42:05.

investigative journalists have got hold of the hard drives of two

:42:06.:42:10.

companies specialising in setting up offshore companies for clients. The

:42:11.:42:16.

offshore world is almost always opaque, but this document gives us a

:42:17.:42:25.

peek behind the veil of secrecy. There is companies set up for 21,000

:42:26.:42:30.

Chinese clients. It goes to the top, they claim the brother-in-law of the

:42:31.:42:35.

President of China, he set up a company in the British Virgin

:42:36.:42:39.

Islands, they are also naming one of the son-in-laws of China's former

:42:40.:42:43.

premier as owning offshore companies. Here is the man

:42:44.:42:48.

overseeing the investigation for the last two years. What they show are

:42:49.:42:54.

the secret offshore accounts of some of the relatives of the leaders of

:42:55.:42:58.

China. They also show some of the richest people in China. And some

:42:59.:43:03.

individuals there are actually people from state-owned companies

:43:04.:43:08.

that have become embroiled in corruption scandals. What it really

:43:09.:43:11.

tells us is the Chinese are using offshore entities the same as people

:43:12.:43:16.

in the west. It is the western companies, the banks, the big

:43:17.:43:19.

accountany firms that are helping them do this. They are heading

:43:20.:43:24.

towards being the biggest users of offshore.

:43:25.:43:28.

What it tells us is the Chinese are using offshore bank accounts, it

:43:29.:43:32.

doesn't say what they are doing wrong? The answer is we can't tell

:43:33.:43:35.

that from the files. Because the companies set up are in the

:43:36.:43:40.

supersecretive offshore Vivarins, we have no idea what they have done.

:43:41.:43:43.

What we can do is ask the question of why might somebody want to set a

:43:44.:43:48.

company up in one of these havens, that is what I asked the chartered

:43:49.:43:51.

accountant, Richard Murphy who was an expert on tax havens. There are

:43:52.:43:56.

reasons why people need companies outside China. Clearly some

:43:57.:44:01.

companies will use an offshore company to be their trading point

:44:02.:44:05.

with the rest of the world. But actually, if you wanted that, the

:44:06.:44:08.

easiest place to form a company is here in the UK. You could do that,

:44:09.:44:12.

but the information would be on public record, it would be cheaper

:44:13.:44:16.

for you, the regulatory burden is in some ways lower, technically, but in

:44:17.:44:20.

practice of course you would be on the record. And so the reason why

:44:21.:44:24.

people will use the British Virgin Islands is because they want the

:44:25.:44:28.

secrecy. What kind of secrecy are we talking about here? All sorts of

:44:29.:44:33.

things, avoiding tax is one, but economists have been saying for

:44:34.:44:35.

years that vast amounts of money have been leaving China. Here is

:44:36.:44:39.

Richard Murphy again. Of course I would be worried if I was the

:44:40.:44:42.

Chinese Government about this amount of money leaving China. There is 100

:44:43.:44:47.

billion or so a year leaving. We know 60 billion is coming back. That

:44:48.:44:53.

money coming back is illicit money, black money, inside the Chinese

:44:54.:44:56.

economy. It is fuelling its house price increase, which is

:44:57.:45:00.

destablising the Chinese economy. There is an enormous shadow economy

:45:01.:45:05.

as a result, untaxed. It is creating a shadow economy and a big problem

:45:06.:45:09.

inside the UK housing market. Lots of this black money going through

:45:10.:45:12.

the British Virgin Islands is also turning up in our economy and

:45:13.:45:17.

fuelling house prices. Let's not forget who is ultimately responsible

:45:18.:45:22.

for, that the British Virgin island are British territory. Ultimately we

:45:23.:45:25.

should say we are responsible and maybe we should look to clean up the

:45:26.:45:34.

offshore haven. Tomorrow morning's front

:45:35.:46:08.

Doctors fear brain-damage is permanent for Schumacher. Before we

:46:09.:46:14.

go we asked Britain's best known motorist to drop in to the country's

:46:15.:46:20.

first motorway pub, which opened at junction two of the M 40 today. Here

:46:21.:47:17.

is the review. It was fog last night but rain

:47:18.:47:19.

The Lib Dems continue not to deal with Lord Rennard, David Baddiel on Nicolas Anelka, 12 hours in an A&E, and the offshore world of China's elite. With Kirsty Wark.