22/01/2014 Newsnight


22/01/2014

Kirsty Wark presents analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, including unemployment figures, Syria talks, Ukraine protests and how to repel a sex pest.


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Transcript


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On the day unemployment fell faster than in any quarter since 1997, we

:00:10.:00:15.

take you to a street in Birmingham, not Benefits Street, but Working

:00:16.:00:18.

Street, to hear what jobs mean there. Employed, employed, two

:00:19.:00:29.

people employed. With unemployment dropping so dramatically, could an

:00:30.:00:32.

interest rate rise be on the way? More than 40 countries gather in

:00:33.:00:37.

Montreux to try to bring peace to Syria. With both sides hurling

:00:38.:00:41.

accusations and insults across the room, what chance talks on Friday,

:00:42.:00:48.

we talk live to the regime. Independence Square in Kiev is still

:00:49.:00:53.

alight after three protestors are killed.

:00:54.:00:55.

There aren't just sex pests in politics, they may well be in a work

:00:56.:01:00.

place near you. Anne Robinson, Joan Bakewell and

:01:01.:01:03.

Stella Creasey share their own stories and their very different

:01:04.:01:13.

remedies. Good evening the Chancellor claimed

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success for Plan A, announcing that the sharp rise in unemployment was

:01:18.:01:22.

evidence that the long-term coalition plan for the economy is

:01:23.:01:26.

working and a claim that people in Britain are better off.

:01:27.:01:30.

Ed Miliband parried with inflation rising faster than wages many people

:01:31.:01:33.

are worse off. What is the truth? You may know

:01:34.:01:36.

about Benefits Street in Birmingham, we bring you Working Street in the

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same city. Employment, employed, two people

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employed. My son has just been born, two or three days a at the moment

:02:00.:02:03.

times are good, we have plenty of work on. Two people employed here,

:02:04.:02:08.

employed, and they didn't answer, they were out, so maybe they are

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work? Lazell Street in Birmingham, less than two miles for a street

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made famous on Channel four, may not be that far from your average

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street, most of the residents are working. Today unemployment fell far

:02:26.:02:30.

faster than most economists had expected. The Governor of the Bank

:02:31.:02:33.

of England had thought it would take two years to get this low. And

:02:34.:02:36.

nowhere in the UK is it falling faster than here in the West

:02:37.:02:41.

Midlands. This is the biggest fall in unemployment in 15 years, what

:02:42.:02:44.

sort of work is being created and how well does it pay?

:02:45.:02:50.

It is lunchtime and Asif is back from work as a postal worker where

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he gets ?8 an hour. You work for the Royal Mail through

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an agency, what sort of a contract have you got? It is like a zero

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hours contract. Zero hours? It is not fixed. So it is through an

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agency and you only get what you work? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do your

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hours vary, do they go up and down? They could give me four hours one

:03:12.:03:15.

day and six the next. He has had the job for two months after being made

:03:16.:03:19.

redundant six months ago. So part-time, what are you paid per

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hour? ?8 an hour. About ?100 a week or there abouts. Around about that

:03:26.:03:30.

much. Can you get other work while doing this, part-time work? I could,

:03:31.:03:33.

I have been applying other place, no luck at the moment. I'm stuck with

:03:34.:03:37.

this job at the moment. Underemployment, where people want

:03:38.:03:40.

more work than they can get is falling. More than 300,000 jobs were

:03:41.:03:44.

created in the three months to the end of November. There are now more

:03:45.:03:48.

than 30 million in work. What is driving that here? The good news is

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we have large businesses who are thriving locally, big manufacturing

:03:53.:03:56.

organisations, Jaguar, Land Rover, JCB, who are growing and have

:03:57.:04:01.

vacancies. Great, it is falling, but it is still over 9%, in parts of

:04:02.:04:07.

Birmingham it is 20% plus, that is not acceptable. The issue we have

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got is we haven't skilled up the people in those parts of the city

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fast enough to celebrate the jobs that are coming along, to take the

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jobs that are available. Lozell Street has visible signs of the

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recovery we are hearing about, including the housing market. This

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man is benefitting now. What do you get paid, do you mind me asking? I'm

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doing it as a labour charge. So what, ?10 an hour? No, no, it is ?6,

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?7 an hour. And is there more business now do you find, is

:04:43.:04:46.

business picking up? Just nothing else. Nothing else after that? Just

:04:47.:04:50.

the building, nothing else. What will you do when this is finished?

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Going home. He may be working, but on wages like that he would be

:04:56.:04:59.

classed as being in poverty. And he may not be working next week. In

:05:00.:05:02.

fact, there are now more people in the UK in poverty with jobs than

:05:03.:05:07.

without. We saw again in the wage data today very, very slow growth,

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and wages still rising below # %, which is much low -- 1%, which is

:05:12.:05:14.

much lower than the rate of inflation. People getting poorer in

:05:15.:05:20.

terms of pay packets. One uncertainty in the labour market is

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why are wages so low, it didn't happen in any other recession and it

:05:25.:05:29.

didn't happen in the 80s and it is happening this time round, how much

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of this is a cyclical downturn and will turn around, or how much is

:05:35.:05:39.

structural and the jobs we are creating in our employment market.

:05:40.:05:46.

The thought is when wages can go up, we have to wait longer and longer

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for that to happen. The prediction from the Government was last year,

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after the eurocrisis the prediction was next year. And now the

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prediction is real wage growth will have to wait until 2017. In the

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street the price of a job can be shrinking wages. But you can also

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pay it by taking on the risks an employer by going self-employed. 48%

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of jobs were self-employed of the jobs created. Far more than

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previously. Craig is a plumber who has done well from the Government's

:06:19.:06:22.

free boiler scheme. I'm not worried it won't last, but I have done well.

:06:23.:06:27.

It is a Government-funded scheme, if they say no more funding it stops.

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In this street and the economy people are accepting the risks of

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self-employment, hours that fluctuate and pay that shrinks. The

:06:36.:06:38.

insecurity of work is a price people are showing they are prepared to pay

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just to have it. I'm joined to discuss what today's figures mean

:06:46.:06:49.

for the economy and those who work in it by the Treasury Minister,

:06:50.:06:55.

David Gauke and Labour's shadow Employment Minister, Stephen Timms.

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By any measure of employment these are dramatically good figures today

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aren't they? They are very encouraging figures, we have had to

:07:03.:07:05.

wait a very long time for them. We were told after the election the

:07:06.:07:08.

consequence of the Government's policies would be steady growth and

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falling unemployment. We have had to wait nearly four years for the

:07:12.:07:14.

figures. They are very encouraging. What I hope will happen now is the

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Government will seriously tackle the very large number of people who have

:07:19.:07:21.

been out of work for a long time. Over a quarter of million young

:07:22.:07:26.

people out of work for over a year, they need help to get back into work

:07:27.:07:32.

now. They need to be skilled up. And Lozell Street's example, Jahid

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working for ?6 and ?7, actually classed as in poverty. And you have

:07:39.:07:42.

someone working in the Royal Mail on a zero hours contract who can't get

:07:43.:07:46.

other work. People are in work but it is not high-skilled work or the

:07:47.:07:49.

work that is permanent and that you can rely? On? The first point is

:07:50.:08:01.

good news, the last quarter, 280,000 more people in work, since the last

:08:02.:08:07.

general election one. Three million people in work. It is worth pointing

:08:08.:08:10.

out that the vast majority of the new jobs created are full-time.

:08:11.:08:15.

Something like 80%. It is also worth pointing out that the average number

:08:16.:08:20.

of hours that workers are working now is 32. Two hours. That's exactly

:08:21.:08:26.

what the level was before the recession. So it is not the case

:08:27.:08:29.

that the labour market has moved over the last six years to lots of

:08:30.:08:33.

part-time work and so on, that hasn't changed fundamentally. When

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you hear what is happening in Birmingham, when you have got Land

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Rover, for example, who are doing incredibly well at the moment, and

:08:41.:08:42.

there are vacancies, particularly talking about young people, they

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just don't have the skills? It is an important point on skills, we do

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have a problem in this country, which is long standing and that's

:08:50.:08:53.

why there is a lot of work that's going on into for example improving

:08:54.:08:58.

the apprenticeship system, far more people going into apprenticeships

:08:59.:09:01.

than was the case before. It is why there is a focus on ensuring that

:09:02.:09:06.

our vocational training is up to standard and ensuring that employers

:09:07.:09:10.

have greater powers to ensure that apprenticeships are delivering what

:09:11.:09:13.

they need to do. Yes, there is a challenge on skills, that is part of

:09:14.:09:16.

the long-term economic plan to ensure that we get a wealthy

:09:17.:09:22.

prosperous country with a wealthy prosperous work force. I think there

:09:23.:09:25.

is a real problem here, there is a lack of co-ordination between skills

:09:26.:09:28.

support on the one hand and employment support on the other.

:09:29.:09:32.

People on the Work Programme, the flagship back to work scheme, hardly

:09:33.:09:35.

ever get on to the aweren't at thisesship, the two systems are

:09:36.:09:38.

managed separately and don't work together. That is one of the reasons

:09:39.:09:41.

why we are seeing the skills problem among people who ought to be skilled

:09:42.:09:48.

up for work now. Ed Miliband's point about cost of living, inflation is

:09:49.:09:55.

down and actually wages are rising at zero. Nine, inflation is coming

:09:56.:09:59.

down to 2%, you have lost that argument as well? I don't think that

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is the case. You are right, inflation is two. 1%, but prices,

:10:04.:10:07.

but wages are only going up at less than half of that, so the cost of

:10:08.:10:13.

living crisis is continuing. The average household ?1600 worse off

:10:14.:10:16.

since the election. If they keep travelling in that direction, which

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indications are they will keep travel anything that direction, then

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you run out of road. Ed Miliband has completely run out of road on his

:10:24.:10:27.

opposition to Government's economic policies? People in your film were

:10:28.:10:31.

clear this feels an uncertain and insecure recovery. People feel worse

:10:32.:10:35.

off, they are worse off. David Cameron says they are better off?

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The statistics say otherwise. There is a very large number of people who

:10:40.:10:43.

have been out of work for a long time. They need to be invested in to

:10:44.:10:46.

get them back into work to support the economy in the future. On the

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question of the 7% unemployment that we had heard once that it was

:10:54.:10:57.

changed, that Mark Carney said when we got to 7% unemployment then

:10:58.:11:01.

interest rates would be revisited. It is seven. 1%, he has revised

:11:02.:11:05.

that. Would you like to see that revised down to six. 5% or are we in

:11:06.:11:11.

a position ready to put up interest rates now you are the Exchequer to

:11:12.:11:14.

the Treasury? I think it is really important that we have an

:11:15.:11:17.

independent Monetary Policy Committee of the Bank of England,

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and the Bank of England makes these decisions. I don't think it is

:11:21.:11:24.

helpful for Treasury ministers to kind of give a running commentary on

:11:25.:11:29.

that. A simple answer would suffice? There is a reason why I'm not giving

:11:30.:11:33.

an answer, because I don't think that we as Treasury ministers should

:11:34.:11:38.

do the job of the Governor of the Bank of England. It is important

:11:39.:11:40.

that the Governor of the Bank of England and the Monday three --

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Monetary Policy Committee set out interest rate policy. It is their

:11:46.:11:48.

job to do, that and if ministers go and comment on all of that you

:11:49.:11:53.

undermine that independence. I don't think that would be helpful. Can the

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Employment Minister comment on it, would you like Mark Carney to revise

:11:58.:12:01.

looking at raising interest rates at six. 5%? I would leave that to the

:12:02.:12:06.

Monetary Policy Committee. What I would say, if there was a

:12:07.:12:08.

significant rise in interest rates there would be serious problems in

:12:09.:12:11.

the economy and around the country. Those would need to be weighed in

:12:12.:12:15.

the Monetary Policy Committee's deliberations.

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Such was the hostility between the two sides in the talks over Syria

:12:19.:12:25.

that US and UN fficials in Montreux said merely getting them in the same

:12:26.:12:28.

room was a victory. John Kerry stated from the outset that Casado's

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departure would only suffice in any sense. The two sides sit down

:12:37.:12:39.

together in Geneva. In a moment I will talk live to the Syrian regime,

:12:40.:12:44.

first here is our security correspondent. Syria, the worst most

:12:45.:12:52.

enduring conflict of our time. At least 100,000 dead and counting.

:12:53.:12:59.

Atrocities on both sides. So, can it be stopped? Today on the shores of

:13:00.:13:04.

Lake Geneva, the warring parties were brought bickering to the table.

:13:05.:13:08.

Trading accusation and counter accusation. TRANSLATION: All the

:13:09.:13:12.

victims in Syria are just to allow one man to remain on his throne. No

:13:13.:13:18.

throne has the value of one single innocent life. TRANSLATION: The

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media lawed these -- Laued these people, these terrorists by claiming

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they are moderates, they know full well they are extremists and

:13:31.:13:35.

terrorists. Even the UN Secretary-General struggled to keep

:13:36.:13:38.

things on track. Yourself, you live in New York, I live in Syria, I have

:13:39.:13:58.

the right to give the Syrian version, this is my right. We have

:13:59.:14:03.

to refrain from inflammatory remarks. This is my right. The

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quotes from today's say The expectations for these peace

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talks were always low, the two sides absolutely hate each other. Now over

:14:33.:14:35.

the next few days they may be able to find some kind of compromise,

:14:36.:14:40.

confidence-building measures like prisoner exchanges, better access

:14:41.:14:44.

for aid, even localised cease-fires. But the fundamental gap remains

:14:45.:14:50.

this, the Syrian Government says Mr Assad is not going. The opposition,

:14:51.:14:54.

especially the rebels doing the fighting say he has to go. And at

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the moment no amount of talking can bridge that gap.

:15:00.:15:04.

Then there is Iran, its President arrived in Davos today for the World

:15:05.:15:08.

Economic Forum. It is a key player in the Syrian STLIEG supplying arms

:15:09.:15:14.

and money to the Assad regime. The Iranian President said the peace

:15:15.:15:17.

talks are doom today fail, because, he said, some countries sponsoring

:15:18.:15:21.

terrorism were taking part. Iran is furious not to be invited. Its media

:15:22.:15:27.

joined in today calling it a fruitless summit, a failure before

:15:28.:15:31.

it started and slamming the UN Secretary-General for withdrawing

:15:32.:15:33.

Iran's invitation at the last minute. If the purpose is a

:15:34.:15:37.

cease-fire and a political settlement then all combatants and

:15:38.:15:41.

their external backers, countries like Saudi Arabia for the rebels and

:15:42.:15:45.

Iran for the regime will have to be at the table. But the problems is

:15:46.:15:49.

Iran refused to accept the agenda of the talks. It refused to accept that

:15:50.:15:53.

these peace talks were really about forming a transitional Government

:15:54.:15:59.

between the regime and the rebels. Nor are Syria's Jihadists present at

:16:00.:16:02.

the peace talks. They have accused opposition figures who have gone to

:16:03.:16:07.

Switzerland of being traitors. Internationally prescribed Al-Qaeda

:16:08.:16:11.

linked groups like Isis and others have emerged as the most capable

:16:12.:16:16.

forces fighting the Syrian regime. But their tactics are Barrious, but

:16:17.:16:27.

some may be importing their anti-western hatred back here. The

:16:28.:16:30.

importance for the UK for the conflict in Syria is to resolve it

:16:31.:16:34.

as quickly as possible, so any security risk to the UK from foreign

:16:35.:16:39.

fighters, going over there with perhaps good intentions and they

:16:40.:16:44.

will come back having been exposed to radical and extreme information.

:16:45.:16:48.

And believing that terrorism is a good way of carrying on the struggle

:16:49.:16:54.

here. Meanwhile Syria's human trage continues to multiply with millions

:16:55.:16:58.

displaced as refugees. We are desperately calling on Geneva to

:16:59.:17:02.

provide the humanitarian access, protection and system that will

:17:03.:17:05.

enable us to reach the people who are in desperate need. There is

:17:06.:17:09.

nine. Three million people waiting for that assistance.

:17:10.:17:13.

In Syria today there was no let up in the fighting. No victory in sight

:17:14.:17:18.

for either side. No political solution on the horizon. Syria's war

:17:19.:17:27.

looks set to continue. Earlier I asked Monzer Akbik Chief

:17:28.:17:33.

of Staff to the leader of the Syrian National Coalition that if despite

:17:34.:17:41.

today will there be a sit down with Assad and the negotiating team on

:17:42.:17:45.

Friday? Any way the negotiations will be mediated. The parties are

:17:46.:17:50.

not going to speak to each Other directly, we will speak to the

:17:51.:17:56.

representative and visa versa. The Friday session will take place. We

:17:57.:18:00.

will sit there but insist that the Assad regime should admit to the

:18:01.:18:06.

process platform which is the Geneva communique. They have to accept it.

:18:07.:18:11.

Today his Foreign Minister's speech did not mention Geneva at all. He's

:18:12.:18:14.

still in a state of denial. So we will insist that we should put the

:18:15.:18:18.

document in place and should be implemented. If they continue to you

:18:19.:18:22.

know not to adhere to that document then there will be big problems.

:18:23.:18:30.

Would you be prepared to see a Government of National Unity in

:18:31.:18:34.

Syria, which also had members of the Assad regime within it. Not

:18:35.:18:39.

President Assad, but the Assad regime working with all other

:18:40.:18:44.

Syrians. The process, the Geneva communique

:18:45.:18:49.

sa that there should be formation of transitional governs body with full

:18:50.:18:55.

authority. Now this governing body means that all the authorities of

:18:56.:18:59.

Assad should be transferred to that transitional governing body. In

:19:00.:19:06.

terms of the people from the regime there are people there, we have a

:19:07.:19:10.

white list of people who did not commit crimes against humanity and

:19:11.:19:14.

war crimes. They are employees of the regime. They cannot show that

:19:15.:19:17.

they are against the regime, because they are afraid for their lives and

:19:18.:19:22.

the lives of the families. We can work with those people. But Assad

:19:23.:19:25.

himself and his associates and officers, who have blood on their

:19:26.:19:29.

hands, they should be out of that process. This is exactly what the

:19:30.:19:33.

Geneva communique says. Thank you very much indeed. Joining

:19:34.:19:40.

me live now from Montreux is Montreux Bouthaina Shaaban, the

:19:41.:19:45.

political adviser to President Assad. Good evening. People around

:19:46.:19:53.

the world, countries present in Montreux, and people in Syria want

:19:54.:20:00.

peace. Do you want peace? Of course I want peace, everybody in Syria

:20:01.:20:05.

wants peace. That's why we are here. We're here north to stop these

:20:06.:20:10.

horrors that are being perpetrated against our people. We're here

:20:11.:20:16.

because we want Syria to get back to its secure, peaceful and beautiful

:20:17.:20:22.

life that we used to live before this horrid war has started. You

:20:23.:20:27.

will have heard Monzer Akbik saying, from the Syrian National Council

:20:28.:20:31.

side that he is ready to talk on Friday, are you ready to talk on

:20:32.:20:41.

Friday too? Well, we are going to talk through the United Nations but

:20:42.:20:51.

what I heard in the report with our interviewee, the Geneva one is

:20:52.:20:54.

subject to different interpretations. I think the basic

:20:55.:20:59.

point should be how to save Syria and how to save the Syrian people.

:21:00.:21:06.

It is not about power, it is about not authority, it is not about

:21:07.:21:08.

Government, it is about Syria and the lives of millions of Syrian

:21:09.:21:15.

people. If we, if everybody puts that into account then solutions can

:21:16.:21:26.

be found. And would that solution, as we were told, one possible

:21:27.:21:31.

solution, he said, was that in any future settlement it was perfectly

:21:32.:21:35.

possible that in a Government of National Unity you would have people

:21:36.:21:39.

that had been in President Assad's regime but not President Assad. Do

:21:40.:21:43.

you think for the good of the country there would ever be a

:21:44.:21:46.

situation where President Assad would leave other people in place

:21:47.:21:49.

but realise it was the right time for him to go? I really believe who

:21:50.:21:53.

is going to be in Government and who is not going to be in Government

:21:54.:21:58.

should be the decision of the Syrian people. After all they are saying

:21:59.:22:03.

that they want democracy in Syria, and I think democracy everywhere in

:22:04.:22:07.

the world comes through the ballot box, not through a Foreign Secretary

:22:08.:22:11.

of a foreign country saying who should be in Government and who

:22:12.:22:19.

should not be in Government it is --. It is unfortunate that Syrian

:22:20.:22:26.

groups are all lining with forces that are not seeking the good of the

:22:27.:22:32.

Syrian people. It would be fair to say that the Syrian National

:22:33.:22:37.

Council, although they would admit that they are not the only

:22:38.:22:40.

opposition force that happens to be fighting in Syria, it would be fair

:22:41.:22:45.

to say that the Syrian National Council wants to have a negotiated

:22:46.:22:53.

settlement. I would like to know who these people represent. We have a

:22:54.:22:59.

wide spectrum of national opposition in Syria, over 20 political parties

:23:00.:23:04.

and all these people were not invited to the conference. I would

:23:05.:23:10.

like to know who niece people represent in Syria. Do they

:23:11.:23:13.

represent the terrorists who are killing and kidnapping. Or do they

:23:14.:23:17.

represent other forces that we don't know of. I think the test for

:23:18.:23:22.

everybody is elections. They should go through the ballot box, they

:23:23.:23:28.

should not, Syrian Governments are not formed in Geneva or Montreux, it

:23:29.:23:31.

should be formed by the Syrian people in Syria, for the benefit of

:23:32.:23:36.

Syria and the Syrian people. So to be quite clear that the ballot box

:23:37.:23:42.

is king in Syria? That actually you would have a free and fair election

:23:43.:23:46.

in a country that is widely regarded as being a dictatorship Well Geneva

:23:47.:23:55.

is the one that speak about it. It says there should be no political

:23:56.:24:00.

vacuum and we should keep our institutions or whatever it is left

:24:01.:24:03.

of it, because the terrorists have destroyed our institutions. Then it

:24:04.:24:06.

says a political process should be put in place. Everyone is reading

:24:07.:24:12.

the document of Geneva and it has been subjected to many different

:24:13.:24:20.

interpretations. But I think the basic... Go on. You heard John Kerry

:24:21.:24:24.

say there can be no settlement, there is no legitimacy for Mr Assad.

:24:25.:24:30.

If there is an absolute insistence that he goes, is there no basis for

:24:31.:24:39.

any negotiation at all? I would like to ask you what do you think as a

:24:40.:24:43.

western woman of John Kerry saying that about a President of another

:24:44.:24:52.

country. Do you think it is acceptable for a Secretary of State

:24:53.:24:55.

from anywhere to decide that a President of a different country

:24:56.:24:58.

should go or stay. Do you think this is democratic or colonial. It is not

:24:59.:25:03.

for me to say. I'm simply asking a question, if for the good of the

:25:04.:25:07.

country, and if for the good of Syria, President Assad stepped

:25:08.:25:10.

aside, would that not be for the good of the country. Which would

:25:11.:25:13.

allow nine million people to return to their homes? We heard stories

:25:14.:25:20.

before, look what they did in Iraq look what they did in Libya. Total

:25:21.:25:25.

bay I don'ts and destruction, we have to question what they are

:25:26.:25:29.

saying and why they are saying it. Any way this is not helpable for

:25:30.:25:35.

Syrians, for more Syrians. If it is acceptable for these people who are

:25:36.:25:41.

saying paid to stay in five-star hotel, th don't represent the Syrian

:25:42.:25:45.

people, it is the people who should decide. January 22nd is celebrated

:25:46.:25:54.

in the Ukraine as the country's day of national unity, overnight three

:25:55.:25:57.

people died in the first fatalities since the anti-Government protests

:25:58.:26:03.

over membership of the European Union began two months ago. Two died

:26:04.:26:08.

in gunshot wounds, and another plunged from the top of the football

:26:09.:26:13.

stadium after fighting with police. It jolted opposition leaders and the

:26:14.:26:17.

President into talks. Tonight fires are still rages in Kiev, and the

:26:18.:26:24.

protesters are back in Independence Square.

:26:25.:26:27.

I'm on Independence Square, it is coming up to 1.00 in the morning, it

:26:28.:26:31.

is cold and knowing. But there are still a few00 protesters out here on

:26:32.:26:35.

the square listening to speeches. The place where the clashes have

:26:36.:26:39.

been going on is a few hundred yards down the road. As you said two,

:26:40.:26:44.

possibly three people were killed in the early hours of the morning. The

:26:45.:26:47.

official figure is two but it is almost certainly more than that,

:26:48.:26:50.

more than three. A colleague of mine saw another dead body being dragged

:26:51.:26:54.

out by police earlier this afternoon. We don't really know what

:26:55.:26:59.

the real figure is. Both sides are blaming each other for these deaths.

:27:00.:27:02.

The Government says they haven't been firing with live ammunition, so

:27:03.:27:06.

if people have been shot it must have been the protestors. The

:27:07.:27:09.

protestors are saying it is Government snipers. The protest

:27:10.:27:13.

leaders have been coming out today demanding that the President call

:27:14.:27:19.

snap elections. Without some kind of giving way on somebody's side it is

:27:20.:27:23.

very difficult to see how this situation is going to be calmed down

:27:24.:27:28.

just at the moment. After three hours of talk there was

:27:29.:27:32.

talk that the opposition would come back to Independence Square and

:27:33.:27:34.

relay the conversation that was had. Are you saying that all that was

:27:35.:27:40.

relaid was their redemand for snap election -- relayed was their demand

:27:41.:27:46.

for snap elections? They have given the President an ultimatum of 24

:27:47.:27:52.

hours, and the leader of the disparate group of protestors has

:27:53.:27:55.

said that if doesn't announce these snap elections then he will

:27:56.:27:59.

personally lead what he called "the attack" on the square. We don't know

:28:00.:28:03.

exactly what that means. I should say also there are far right groups

:28:04.:28:06.

involved in the protesters, but many, many of them, the majority of

:28:07.:28:10.

the protesters have been peaceful. This really is a stand-off now of

:28:11.:28:18.

which there is no end in sight. The maelstrom surrounding the behaviour

:28:19.:28:22.

of the Liberal Democrat peer Lord Rennard has resulted in a media

:28:23.:28:25.

conversation across newspapers and social media, about the way to

:28:26.:28:28.

respond to unwelcome advances in the work place and the ability or lack

:28:29.:28:32.

of it to speak out about it. Nick Clegg met Liberal Democrat peers

:28:33.:28:38.

this afternoon to discuss the Lord Rennard case, he was adamant he

:28:39.:28:41.

wouldn't back down over his demand that the peer should apologise to

:28:42.:28:45.

the four women activists who lodged complaints against him. Lord Rennard

:28:46.:28:48.

strongly denies the allegations against him. For his part, today

:28:49.:28:53.

Nick Clegg, speaking on LBC accepted that his party had mishandled the

:28:54.:28:58.

affair. Let me about be open I think the way we handled it last year was

:28:59.:29:03.

not great or ideal. On your watch? Yes. And more than that, much more

:29:04.:29:07.

seriously than that, looking much further back it is quite clear that

:29:08.:29:11.

when the women were first caused this distress, many, many years ago,

:29:12.:29:15.

and I think in many cases well before I was an MP the party did not

:29:16.:29:22.

react, the alarm bells didn't go off and there weren't procedures. That

:29:23.:29:25.

is why I have apologised to them in person and publicly. So has the Lord

:29:26.:29:30.

Rennard case served to raise questions about how to act when

:29:31.:29:34.

faced with a sex pest. Who better to ask than three women across the

:29:35.:29:37.

generations have seen a thing or two. They are the journalist and

:29:38.:29:41.

broadcaster and much else besides, Bakewell, the Labour MP, Stella

:29:42.:29:48.

Creasey, and television journalist and presenter Anne Robinson.

:29:49.:29:53.

Joan Bakewell is some of this a generational issue? It is quite

:29:54.:29:56.

clear that older people are taking the view it is not much harm, what

:29:57.:30:00.

is hand on a knee between friends, it doesn't matter much. They are

:30:01.:30:04.

making a fuss and it is unnecessary. And the young women who are the part

:30:05.:30:07.

of the completely liberated generation are saying, I'm sorry,

:30:08.:30:11.

absolutely it is against the rules, we not having it. They are being

:30:12.:30:14.

adamant in the way that both sides are being adamant and they are

:30:15.:30:18.

failing to see. Is that because older women there was no recourse?

:30:19.:30:21.

There was no recourse because the entire culture was behaving in this

:30:22.:30:26.

way. When I was younger. Did you ever face that kind of you know,

:30:27.:30:31.

what was it Michael White called it the "clammy hand"? All the time, of

:30:32.:30:38.

course. As a young woman without power or when you were older? When I

:30:39.:30:42.

was in my early 30s I was working on television and it was quite common,

:30:43.:30:47.

both guests and on the programme, would give you a quick grope, other

:30:48.:30:53.

colleagues would give you a grope, report to the editor, the editor was

:30:54.:30:56.

doing it. It was part of the culture. And I mean, this is the

:30:57.:31:01.

response, and I'm really interested to know if Anne Robinson faced the

:31:02.:31:05.

same thing. What was your response? Your response was well you grew up

:31:06.:31:09.

knowing that this is what men did, some of them, not all of them

:31:10.:31:15.

obviously. You learned social behaviours that pre-empted what was

:31:16.:31:19.

going to happen. You got used to anticipating. You mentally

:31:20.:31:24.

pre-empted it? You anticipated it happening, you could take steps,

:31:25.:31:29.

move away, ask to stop, whatever. Deal with it. Which is in a sense

:31:30.:31:33.

what they are still asking today, and it is too late. Is it acceptable

:31:34.:31:39.

to still ask to deal with it? I think Joan's right, I think it was

:31:40.:31:41.

slightly better when my generation, which was the next one came along,

:31:42.:31:45.

but I can't ever remember it happening to me. Maybe I wasn't

:31:46.:31:50.

attractive enough. But when I think that since the 60s such fabulous

:31:51.:31:54.

things have happened for women, the glass ceilings have disappeared, you

:31:55.:31:59.

know. For some women? Clever girls become clever engineers and get the

:32:00.:32:03.

jobs they deserve. What astonishes me in all that progress that no-one

:32:04.:32:07.

has thought that women have to learn how to deal with treachery. I'm not

:32:08.:32:13.

Chris sizing women -- criticising women, learn how to deal with

:32:14.:32:16.

treachery in the work place. It is sad that really clever women like

:32:17.:32:21.

these Lib Dem women, clever educated never felt that they could deal with

:32:22.:32:24.

it at the time or that they could deal with it and were frightened to

:32:25.:32:29.

have their names mentioned so many years later.

:32:30.:32:32.

As a younger woman in this mix, what do you make of that, we must say

:32:33.:32:36.

these are allegations which Lord Rennard strenuously denies, four

:32:37.:32:40.

younger women, why do you younger women not feel that the law is

:32:41.:32:44.

there, the civil law, the criminal law there to help them? Because and

:32:45.:32:49.

I think this discussion sums up precisely the problem, why is it

:32:50.:32:53.

four women sitting around talking about how can we cope with

:32:54.:32:56.

behaviours rather than a mix of both. Men are concerned about this

:32:57.:32:59.

behaviour as well. We're not making the progress that we think we are

:33:00.:33:03.

making, Anne, and part of it is these kinds of problemsment we are

:33:04.:33:08.

are 100 years on with women being called rabbits for being given a

:33:09.:33:13.

vote. We are only a 80-20 society, four out of five of my colleagues

:33:14.:33:17.

are men. It is not any different in society, it is the same in media and

:33:18.:33:21.

universities, we are a minority. I think one of the reasons why is

:33:22.:33:25.

because we are asking women to cope with these kinds of behaviours, we

:33:26.:33:29.

are sort of saying it is up to us to adapt to the world as it is, rather

:33:30.:33:32.

than men and women to come together and say how can we have equality.

:33:33.:33:36.

That is not strictly true, I am what I'm saying if women could be

:33:37.:33:41.

encouraged to learn how to cope and not be bullied. How about we tell

:33:42.:33:50.

men to stop doing it? Why do we have to cope? No-one has made Lord

:33:51.:34:00.

Rennard think or make it inconvenient to for him to behave

:34:01.:34:04.

that way. It is not fair fight. We are not talking about a clumsy pass,

:34:05.:34:09.

we are talking about somebody in a position of authority who is alleged

:34:10.:34:13.

to have abused that position of authority. Do you think anybody

:34:14.:34:16.

would come up to any of us women sitting here and attempt to put a,

:34:17.:34:21.

man put their hand up our skirt, of course not because we are formidable

:34:22.:34:28.

women. Hang on 20 something starting out. Do you think men have any

:34:29.:34:33.

responsibility in this debate. Let's stop finding ways of focussing on

:34:34.:34:36.

women's behaviour and say what is the behaviour everyone should

:34:37.:34:40.

accept, and what does equality start. It starts with women not

:34:41.:34:43.

putting up with it. We have to start with men stopping. Some of the

:34:44.:34:46.

response in the papers has been that a swift knee to the groin would do.

:34:47.:34:50.

But actually is this not what Stella is saying, which is why should women

:34:51.:34:54.

have to respond? I quite agree with her. We have come a long way, it is

:34:55.:34:58.

a long journey this. It is a long journey and we have already got law

:34:59.:35:01.

on board. And we want to see that. Do you think a lot of young women

:35:02.:35:06.

who are harassed at the work place would even think that they could go

:35:07.:35:09.

to the law. Because would they really, really think that it would

:35:10.:35:12.

do them any good, either with their colleagues or actually with their

:35:13.:35:15.

careers, isn't this the problem that it is still not taken seriously

:35:16.:35:19.

enough? That is why it is a watershed moment. Women have to feel

:35:20.:35:23.

they can do that. The reason they don't is that there are various

:35:24.:35:27.

social reasons, we are living through an absolute inuna decision

:35:28.:35:31.

of highly sexualised, advertising, pop music, culture, fashion and so

:35:32.:35:34.

on. They are part of that view as well. And they lack the confidence

:35:35.:35:38.

to do it because one they could lose out socially, two they could be

:35:39.:35:43.

losing out professionally, they don't feel able to act, which is why

:35:44.:35:47.

we have got to give them the confidence to know that the law is

:35:48.:35:52.

on their side and so are half the population. Do you think the

:35:53.:35:55.

majority of young women know that unwanted sexual touching is a

:35:56.:35:59.

criminal offence? And harassment in the work place is a civil offence?

:36:00.:36:03.

Even if you know that, until you are in that position yourself. I don't

:36:04.:36:07.

want bomb to feel they have -- women to feel they have to be formidable

:36:08.:36:11.

to deal with these situations, I want them to know they will be

:36:12.:36:13.

believed and it will be taken seriously. That isn't about the

:36:14.:36:17.

person themselves. We have to stop focussing on the person would making

:36:18.:36:20.

the accusation, and why not a culture saying we have these laws

:36:21.:36:22.

for a reason, because actually nobody should have to put up with

:36:23.:36:27.

this, male or female. Thank you very much indeed.

:36:28.:36:30.

The UK is the biggest western importer of a leaf called

:36:31.:36:39.

Chhattisgarh, a stimulant Khat, the Home Secretary has banned t in the

:36:40.:36:42.

next few months it will be classified as a Class C drug. We

:36:43.:36:46.

asked the magazine and TV channel, Vice to look at the superintendant

:36:47.:37:01.

for us. Khat grows on trees across South

:37:02.:37:07.

Africa. For most drinkers and drug users the effects are so minor they

:37:08.:37:12.

barely registered, but for the Somali community it is a way of

:37:13.:37:18.

life. Every day Somali men head to their chewing cafe to chew KHAT and

:37:19.:37:27.

talk. Theresa May has announced plans to ban the stuff so it all

:37:28.:37:40.

might end. The talk of banning Khat has brought shivers. It is banned in

:37:41.:37:49.

most countries across Europe. Anti-Chait Khat campaigners say it

:37:50.:37:54.

ruins families, and encourages Somali groups. People who grow

:37:55.:38:01.

insist it should be talked of more like coffee and less like the end of

:38:02.:38:06.

the world. We went to meet the largest Khat importer in the UK. We

:38:07.:38:10.

are importing from Kenya and Nairobi. We have 5,128 kilos. The

:38:11.:38:17.

ban on Khat will be disastrous for your business? Most of the people

:38:18.:38:20.

who are employed will go jobless. This is the biggest Khat warehouse

:38:21.:38:26.

in Europe, the delivery of the week has been coming in. It will be

:38:27.:38:30.

driven as far as Devon, Britain's Khat goes far and wide. Amazingly

:38:31.:38:39.

every piece of Khat shifted from the warehouse in Heathrow was sitting on

:38:40.:38:44.

a tree in Kenya 24 hours ago. Kenya supplies so much Khat to the UK,

:38:45.:38:48.

that whole regions are economically relianten to. One such place is in

:38:49.:38:54.

Nairobi, a huge suburb of the Kenyan capital, most recently known for

:38:55.:38:59.

being the home of the Malattack in September. This is the repackaging

:39:00.:39:07.

plant, this is one of ten hangers around the place.

:39:08.:39:11.

How much of this whole business, all of this stuff is for the UK market?

:39:12.:39:16.

Everything here is for the UK market. All of it? And how much

:39:17.:39:21.

money comes from the UK here? On a conservative estimate I think it is

:39:22.:39:26.

about two billion Kenyan money. You are a billionare? Not yet, we are

:39:27.:39:31.

trying before Theresa May interferes. Some people claim that

:39:32.:39:35.

the money that comes from Khat funds terrorism? That is the most

:39:36.:39:40.

unsubstantiated statement I have ever heard. The extremists guys are

:39:41.:39:46.

against mirra, they say if you are chewing it is an abomination to God.

:39:47.:39:50.

How is something that they don't allow in their description of Islam

:39:51.:39:54.

then take the money and fund the terror, I think that is a misnomer.

:39:55.:39:57.

It is not there. Clearly people in the UK do have something of a big

:39:58.:40:02.

Khat habit, four times a week this amount of Khat is flown to London.

:40:03.:40:08.

We're about half way through a five-hour journey from Nairobi to a

:40:09.:40:14.

place where 90% of all the Khat is grown that ends up in the mouths of

:40:15.:40:19.

the UK citizens. When the UK ban kicks in, the region will go to from

:40:20.:40:24.

being one of the richest in Kenya to being broke. This is the mirra tree.

:40:25.:40:31.

Funny to know those dried up bitter roots that end up being chewed in

:40:32.:40:36.

Kentish Town in London come from trees like this and guys picking it

:40:37.:40:41.

like this. This whole place is run through Khat. How long have you been

:40:42.:40:48.

growing mirra? All my life. That one is the oldest one, the oldest the

:40:49.:40:56.

mirra the sweeter it is. These guys are bunkedling it up and stuck it in

:40:57.:41:03.

a struck to be sorted and sent around Kenya. Every day mirra is

:41:04.:41:06.

going all over the world. If it is banned in the UK it will affect

:41:07.:41:11.

every sector of economy in the Meru community. Do you think that many

:41:12.:41:15.

people around here will lose their jobs? A lot of people will lose

:41:16.:41:22.

their jobs, thousands, we are giving money and we want to fundraise 13

:41:23.:41:26.

million shillings. If Arabs don't sell petrol can they survive? They

:41:27.:41:32.

can't. One of the biggest weapons of the anti-Khat movement has been the

:41:33.:41:35.

supposed link between the trade and terrorism. US and British counter

:41:36.:41:39.

terror officials have claimed the trade is linked to Al-Shabaab. The

:41:40.:41:44.

studies by the UK's advisory council on the misuse of drugs, and experts

:41:45.:41:47.

from the UN, have found little or nothing to support this. When we

:41:48.:41:52.

asked local guys who packaged the drug about Al-Shabaab, they claimed

:41:53.:41:58.

it would have the opposite effect. If they ban mirra we don't have

:41:59.:42:02.

anything to find, and the people come and brainwash us and say we can

:42:03.:42:06.

give you money to turn you become Al-Shabaab. We will become

:42:07.:42:10.

Al-Shabaab because we don't have anything, this mirra it helps us. It

:42:11.:42:19.

is bringing food on the table. A We have some people here in this tiny

:42:20.:42:25.

little building, smuggling it to the states on a daily basis. If it is

:42:26.:42:30.

banned in the UK will you traffic it illegally? Will it be more

:42:31.:42:48.

profitable? This is a box of Khat being easily transported to the

:42:49.:42:51.

United States, where it has been illegal for 20 years. You stuck it

:42:52.:42:55.

in a box and you write a name on it and post it to the person who wants

:42:56.:42:57.

it. The most famous of all the anti-Khat

:42:58.:43:43.

campaigners is this man. A UK Somali who said he once struggled with his

:43:44.:43:49.

own Khat addiction. Now he broadcasts a weekly TV show where he

:43:50.:43:55.

preaches his anti-Khat message. Welcome to the show. Why do you

:43:56.:43:59.

believe it should be banned? It is a drug and should be banned across the

:44:00.:44:04.

globe. And GoSave the Queen, finally the UK will ban it and we welcome

:44:05.:44:10.

that. A huge majority of the Somali community are upset and angry? I

:44:11.:44:15.

don't agree, that is not accurate, the Somali community is praying for

:44:16.:44:30.

The places where people chew Khat are like this. Is this where you

:44:31.:44:50.

come and hang out? This is it, whole bunch of people hanging out chatting

:44:51.:44:55.

to each other, it is really friendly and chilled out, a bit buzzy. It is

:44:56.:44:59.

a good vibe. We are having a nice time.

:45:00.:45:09.

Just the daily Mail tomorrow morning, and more on the Liberal

:45:10.:45:11.

Democrats. That's all for tonight, tomorrow

:45:12.:45:32.

Jeremy will be in Davos where he will be talking to amongst others

:45:33.:45:38.

Bill Gates. We leave you with a celebration of the beauty of the

:45:39.:45:43.

male form in motion. Two special ballet performances next week. Here

:45:44.:45:47.

is the former Royal Ballet principal, Ivan Putrov, dancing to

:45:48.:45:49.

Johnny Cash's Hurt. # What have I become?

:45:50.:46:11.

# My sweetest friend # Everyone I know

:46:12.:46:15.

# Goes away # In the end

:46:16.:46:26.

# And you could have it all # My empire of birth

:46:27.:46:34.

# I will let you down # I will make you hurt

:46:35.:46:46.

# If I could start again # A million miles away

:46:47.:46:56.

# I would keep myself # I would

:46:57.:47:19.

A line of showers will be rattling across the country first thing in

:47:20.:47:27.

the morning. A bit of snow above the high ground in the north. It won't

:47:28.:47:28.

Kirsty Wark presents in-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, including unemployment figures, Syria talks, Ukraine protests and how to repel a sex pest.


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