30/01/2014 Newsnight


30/01/2014

Interview with Amanda Knox; on the ground in Ukraine; Ed Miliband and Roosevelt; the cost of living; and "new" works by Greek poet Sappho.


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She has no intention of leaving America. What happens next? We have

:00:18.:00:20.

a new interview with her as she awaited the verdict. I am I'm

:00:21.:00:27.

definitely going back willingly. They will have to catch me and pull

:00:28.:00:31.

me back kicking and screaming into a prison I don't deserve to be in.

:00:32.:00:35.

It has dominated the headlines but is the cost of living crisis over.

:00:36.:00:39.

We have new figures released in the last few minutes, and some guests to

:00:40.:00:43.

crunch the numbers. The Republican President, Roosevelt

:00:44.:00:47.

was a hero to many, and still is to Ed Miliband. Why do British MPs have

:00:48.:00:54.

American Idols? We will ask Roosevelt's biographer.

:00:55.:01:00.

The President of the Ukraine has gone sick, leaving the ragtag of

:01:01.:01:04.

protestors. At the crucial moment in Ukraine's

:01:05.:01:09.

history everyone is asking the same question, is thehead of state sick

:01:10.:01:16.

or has there been a coup. In an exclusive Newsnight interview we

:01:17.:01:19.

speak to one of the people supposed to be in charge.

:01:20.:01:27.

Good evenings, once again Amanda Knox and herit Italian former

:01:28.:01:31.

boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, have been found guilty of the you are

:01:32.:01:36.

inneder of -- murder of Meredith Kercher. The Appeal Court upheld

:01:37.:01:44.

convictions that were overturned in 2011. Since then she has been in the

:01:45.:01:50.

US where she is now in Seattle. Tonight she said she was frightened

:01:51.:01:59.

and saddened by the unjust verdict. Meredith Kercher's brother and

:02:00.:02:01.

sister were in court again today for the latest round in the battle for

:02:02.:02:06.

justice. Italian national, Raffaele Sollecito, originally accused of her

:02:07.:02:11.

killing was in court for retry his former codefendant, US citizen,

:02:12.:02:14.

Amanda Knox, did not return to the country. In 2007, 21-year-old

:02:15.:02:27.

Meredith was found dead at her flat with 46 stab wounds. The pair were

:02:28.:02:33.

the next day and prosecuted, prosecutors tried to prove Meredith

:02:34.:02:38.

had died in a sex game gone wrong. Rudy Guede was sentenced to 16 years

:02:39.:02:43.

in prison for the murder in a separate trial. Defendants are

:02:44.:02:47.

acquitted. The convictions against Knox and Sollecito was overturned

:02:48.:02:52.

after concerns were raised about procedures used to gather DNA

:02:53.:02:56.

evidence. But last year the Supreme Court quashed the acquittals citing

:02:57.:03:02.

inconsistencies in the case. Whether or not Knox and Sollecito will

:03:03.:03:06.

appeal the decision, or whether Knox will be extradited from the US. The

:03:07.:03:10.

Kercher family can only hope at last they are closer to finding out the

:03:11.:03:13.

truth about what happened to Meredith. The Guardian secured

:03:14.:03:18.

access to Amanda Knox as she awaited the verdict of the retrial. With her

:03:19.:03:26.

heart in her throat, she said. A lot of the times when I'm interacting

:03:27.:03:29.

with somebody and they don't recognise me immediately and they

:03:30.:03:36.

ask me questions, hair, so what major are you, a creative writing

:03:37.:03:41.

major. They are asking am I senior or freshman. And I'm like a senior.

:03:42.:03:45.

They are like how old are you, 26, what have you been doing to take so

:03:46.:03:48.

long, I'm like I was studying abroad. Really where were you

:03:49.:03:53.

studying abroad in Italy, that must have been awesome, I'm like ahhhh,

:03:54.:03:58.

explain, and it's like, I was in prison. How close do you think the

:03:59.:04:03.

Amanda from the tabloid, or the British tabloids in particular was

:04:04.:04:11.

to you? There was this portrayal of me as being sex obsessed and drug

:04:12.:04:20.

addled and a manipulator and a liar. Being in this complete criminal

:04:21.:04:28.

control of myself and other people. That is absolutely foreign to

:04:29.:04:34.

everything that I am. If I was a stranger coming to you and saying, I

:04:35.:04:40.

know you, you're Amanda Knox, you murdered Meredith Kercher, what

:04:41.:04:43.

would you the two facts that you would tell me that make it

:04:44.:04:48.

impossible for you to have committed that crime? Meredith was my friend,

:04:49.:04:52.

and I would never have done anything like that, no history of crime. It

:04:53.:04:56.

is just not me. And two there is no trace of me in that room. So how

:04:57.:05:01.

would I have committed it? You cannot commit a murder and then like

:05:02.:05:05.

have all of this evidence, all of this blood everywhere, all of the

:05:06.:05:08.

evidence of the person who did it and that not be me, and then say,

:05:09.:05:14.

yeah I was the one who plunged the knife, it is literally impossible.

:05:15.:05:18.

What would it mean to you if you were found guilty. Well, it would

:05:19.:05:32.

feel like a train wreck. There is not a lot I can do after this

:05:33.:05:38.

appeal. They would order my arrest and the Italian Government would

:05:39.:05:42.

approach the American Government and say extradite her. And I don't know

:05:43.:05:51.

what would happen. I'm still counting on an acquittal. I don't

:05:52.:06:00.

know if this story is out, I think it is, you said if they ask for you

:06:01.:06:06.

to return, if you are found guilty you're not going back there? I'm not

:06:07.:06:11.

willingly going back, no. I'm not going to... The quote was "I will

:06:12.:06:17.

he' be a fugutive". What I said was I will technically be considered a

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fugutive. I don't know what I'm going to do. I won't go willingly,

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they will have to catch me and pull me back, kicking and screaming into

:06:30.:06:33.

a prison that I don't deserve to be in. Amanda's friend, Madison moved

:06:34.:06:40.

to Perugia to support her when she was in prison. I'm on my way to see

:06:41.:06:45.

both of them in Amanda's flat. I want to see her with someone she

:06:46.:06:51.

trusts. At any point in that first interrogation think you needed a

:06:52.:06:55.

lawyer? I asked them if I needed lawyer, because I didn't understand

:06:56.:07:00.

if they were having a problem with me or if they were, like, they made

:07:01.:07:07.

it seem like they knew that I had witnessed the murder and that I knew

:07:08.:07:12.

who the murderer was, and I just needed to tell them. I was either

:07:13.:07:21.

lying or I had -- amnesia, I wasn't lying, I started to believe I had

:07:22.:07:29.

amnesia, otherwise I couldn't believe what was happening to me.

:07:30.:07:33.

What was it like? It is a very specific process of how it worked. I

:07:34.:07:39.

knew what I did that night, I remembered it, I was with Raffaele

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Sollecito, we had dinner, we did what we always do on all the nights

:07:43.:07:45.

together. Then they started questioning me about that and making

:07:46.:07:48.

me doubt what I was telling them. They said OK if you had dinner at

:07:49.:07:53.

this time, what were you doing at this time and so between seven and

:07:54.:07:58.

eight you are doing this what about between eight and nine, and what

:07:59.:08:02.

about between nine and ten. And when you have, I kept telling them, look

:08:03.:08:06.

I don't know what time I was doing things, all I can tell you is I left

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my house, me and afael went to his house, we were hanging out and

:08:16.:08:19.

listening to music, I remember reading e-mail, we talked, we ate

:08:20.:08:24.

dinner, that is what we z I am a telling you this. They made it seem

:08:25.:08:30.

because I couldn't chronologically put everything in order in time made

:08:31.:08:34.

it seem like I had something wrong with my memory. They said if you

:08:35.:08:39.

can't remember what happened then there is something wrong with you

:08:40.:08:42.

and you are lying, and we know that you are lying. They told me Rafael

:08:43.:08:46.

said I wasn't. There that completely threw me off, I couldn't understand

:08:47.:08:52.

why he would say that? Which also wasn't true. When I named Patrick is

:08:53.:08:56.

when I finally just broke, I thought oh my God it must be true what I'm

:08:57.:09:02.

saying, that I'm traumatised and I experienced whatever it is that it

:09:03.:09:06.

is, I must have witnessed my friend's murder some how, and I'm

:09:07.:09:11.

scared and all of a sudden like that idea, it was already bad enough when

:09:12.:09:15.

I had to go into the house and they asked me to identify knives that

:09:16.:09:19.

could have killed her. And then all of a sudden the idea that I must

:09:20.:09:23.

have witnessed it and now I'm traumatised enough to not even

:09:24.:09:27.

remember it. To all of a sudden be drawn into this horrible idea of

:09:28.:09:34.

what happened was so completely overwhelming that I just wept for I

:09:35.:09:40.

don't know how long, I was delirious. It was only after they

:09:41.:09:43.

had all left and rushed off and there was only one of them kind of

:09:44.:09:47.

sitting there, eyeing me, making sure that I didn't do anything. I

:09:48.:09:55.

was sitting there a long time and thinking, trying to make sense of

:09:56.:10:01.

what just happened. I felt horrible, I didn't even know what to think any

:10:02.:10:07.

more. I was so confused and all I wanted was my mom. I kept asking can

:10:08.:10:12.

I please call my mom, no. My mom is coming here I need to talk to my

:10:13.:10:18.

mom. She was going to be arriving at the train station that morning. I

:10:19.:10:24.

kept hearing my phone ring. I had phone on my desk, it was my mom

:10:25.:10:28.

calling, I knew it was my mom calling, she was going to freak out.

:10:29.:10:32.

It was bad enough growing up when I came home late from school and she

:10:33.:10:36.

didn't know where I was. But my friend had just been murdered and

:10:37.:10:39.

now I'm not answering my cellphone and it is right there and I want to

:10:40.:10:43.

answer and they tell me I can't. And I'm freaking out and I just want to

:10:44.:10:48.

talk to my mom. I think one of the most difficult things for you has

:10:49.:10:56.

been whatever the evidence has been there has been no way of swaying

:10:57.:11:03.

Meredith's family. The idea that they believe that justice for me

:11:04.:11:10.

automatically means injustice for Meredith horrifies me. Because that

:11:11.:11:15.

is impossible for them to live with and I hate that idea. I think they

:11:16.:11:21.

have come round from thinking you were the killer to, not thinking

:11:22.:11:28.

that but they do think there was something that you knew that there

:11:29.:11:38.

was something. I had so many people tell me that, how do you think you

:11:39.:11:43.

can overcome that, it can only be rooted in your confession? And I

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really believe that is the case that people think there must be something

:11:48.:11:53.

wrong with me. Just like I thought there must be something wrong with

:11:54.:11:58.

me. Because how could anyone do that? But again, the only thing I

:11:59.:12:03.

can do is testify to what happened to me. And hope that people could

:12:04.:12:10.

take a step back from their emotional investment and try to

:12:11.:12:17.

empathise. Amanda Knox, well we have the Rome correspondent for the

:12:18.:12:21.

Sunday Times and the author of Death in Perugia. . Are you surprised by

:12:22.:12:32.

the verdict or not? No, because when the Supreme Court ordered this new

:12:33.:12:35.

trial it was actually pointing towards a conviction, it was tearing

:12:36.:12:40.

to shreds the previous acquittal and the whole way this trial has gone.

:12:41.:12:46.

It was indicating that this was going towards a conviction. Tonight

:12:47.:12:51.

again Amanda Knox is in, by law, a killer, what do you think it has

:12:52.:12:55.

been like for the Kercher family. Has it given them, do you think,

:12:56.:12:59.

today will it have given them any sense of finality or not? When I

:13:00.:13:08.

spoke to them after the last time that Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito

:13:09.:13:12.

were convicted. As they said at this time it was not a time to celebrate.

:13:13.:13:17.

What is important for them to find out what actually happened. Part of

:13:18.:13:21.

that for them is having a definitive ruling, because now this is not a

:13:22.:13:27.

definitive ruling it will now go back to the supreme Court. I'm not

:13:28.:13:34.

sure the Italian courts will give the family an explanation of how and

:13:35.:13:39.

why Meredith died. As you heard from Knox, she will be kicking and

:13:40.:13:43.

screaming before she leaves America, she says the Italians will now put

:13:44.:13:46.

warrant out for her arrest. There is a very old, well from the 1980s

:13:47.:13:52.

extradition agreement between America and Italy. Will that be

:13:53.:13:59.

automatic? It is not automatic, it is pretty hard to predict, but in

:14:00.:14:04.

most cases requests for extradition are met. There have been some

:14:05.:14:09.

exceptions, there was some CIA agents who kidnapped a Muslim cleric

:14:10.:14:14.

in Milan, the extradition was refused for them N this case it is a

:14:15.:14:17.

decision for John Kerry, the Secretary of State. There is quite a

:14:18.:14:23.

strong media campaign in the states for Amanda's innocence, which will

:14:24.:14:28.

go into top gear to block the extradition. It is a choice for the

:14:29.:14:33.

Obama administration to disappoint an important ally like Italy or

:14:34.:14:36.

whether to go ahead with the extradition. As far as the media

:14:37.:14:41.

campaign is concerned in Italy tonight, what is the response from

:14:42.:14:45.

newspapers and television? Well it has been, it is a huge story here,

:14:46.:14:48.

it will be all over the front pages tomorrow morning. I think we can say

:14:49.:14:53.

that the coverage generally reflects the general belief in Italy for

:14:54.:14:58.

public opinion is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are builty of

:14:59.:15:06.

-- guilty of killing Meredith, despite their protesting their

:15:07.:15:09.

innocence. How long a process will it be? Several months. It will go

:15:10.:15:14.

back to the Supreme Court, and then Amanda and Sollecito will get

:15:15.:15:18.

another chance to argue their case. Difficult to predict these rulings.

:15:19.:15:25.

Given the Supreme Court had previously trashed the acquittal, it

:15:26.:15:28.

would be surprising if the Supreme Court went back on what it had ruled

:15:29.:15:34.

previously, one could expect a new definitive conviction this time.

:15:35.:15:38.

Thank you very much indeed. A central plank of Ed Miliband's

:15:39.:15:42.

economic attack in the coalition has been his convention -- contention

:15:43.:15:49.

that the economic growth figures might have been better than they

:15:50.:15:53.

were last year. However a new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies

:15:54.:15:57.

released a few moments ago shows the latest analysis that shows living

:15:58.:16:01.

standards are dramatically down before the global financial crisis

:16:02.:16:05.

hit, the fall in household incomes has now come to a halt. Ealing Green

:16:06.:16:19.

in west London isn't exactly down at heel. A four-bed house costs a

:16:20.:16:24.

million pounds here. During the crisis the boutiques and posh

:16:25.:16:29.

restaurants gave way to... Posh charity shops. Surely it wasn't here

:16:30.:16:35.

that the crisis hit hardest? Remember how those with the biggest

:16:36.:16:39.

shoulders were supposed to bear the biggest burden, if you take

:16:40.:16:43.

everything happening to income, tax and benefits, and if you assume

:16:44.:16:46.

everyone has faced the same rise in the cost of living. Everything they

:16:47.:16:49.

pay for, then that turns out to be true. The people who have been

:16:50.:16:55.

squeezed hardest are the richest. Here is what happened to real

:16:56.:16:58.

incomes after tax and benefit changes, assuming price rises were

:16:59.:17:04.

the same for everyone. The richest saw their incomes shrink by 9% since

:17:05.:17:09.

the financial crisis began, those in the middle were squeezed by 6%, and

:17:10.:17:13.

because benefits went up with inflation, the poorest tenth were

:17:14.:17:17.

only squeezed by 2. 4%. If you look straight forwardedly at what has

:17:18.:17:20.

happened to people's incomes, compare it with the average rate of

:17:21.:17:25.

inflation, it looks like those at the top of the income distribution

:17:26.:17:29.

have done quite a lot worse than people towards the bottom of the

:17:30.:17:32.

distribution. That reflects the fact that wages have been going down

:17:33.:17:35.

relative to prices and at least until this year most benefits have

:17:36.:17:39.

been going up in line with prices. Are you feeling squeezed

:17:40.:17:47.

income-wise? Not particularly no. But I have to tighten my belt. I'm

:17:48.:17:51.

not better off but I'm not really squeezed. Are you feeling squeezed?

:17:52.:17:55.

Completely. How? Wages haven't gone up for the past five years.

:17:56.:18:00.

Wage-freeze at the moment, that's right. At least five years. I don't

:18:01.:18:07.

feel things have got better. You only find the richest are squeezed

:18:08.:18:12.

hardest if price rises are the same for everyone. The rise in the cost

:18:13.:18:15.

of living hasn't been the same for rich and poor. The poorer you are

:18:16.:18:18.

the more of your income you are to spend on food and fuel, which have

:18:19.:18:21.

gone up a lot. So the inflation rate for the poor has been higher than

:18:22.:18:26.

for the rich. When you take that into account the picture of who has

:18:27.:18:29.

been squeezed hardest looks very different. The Institute forcal

:18:30.:18:34.

Studies says if you count in those different rates of inflation the

:18:35.:18:37.

real squeeze on living standards was looser for the richest and tighter

:18:38.:18:44.

for the poorest, we were all squeezed as hard as each other. If

:18:45.:18:48.

you then look at people's differing living costs you get a bit of a

:18:49.:18:52.

different pattern. Because people on high-levels of income have seen very

:18:53.:18:55.

often their mortgage rates go down f they have a mortgage, and because

:18:56.:18:59.

food rises and energy prices are gone up very fast, and that's a big

:19:00.:19:03.

part of the budget of poorer households, you see inflation has

:19:04.:19:07.

hit the poorer groups much harder than it has hit the richer groups.

:19:08.:19:11.

If you take account of that it is much more like the reduction in real

:19:12.:19:15.

incomes or living standards as being flat across the distribution. If

:19:16.:19:19.

wages have already stopped falling in real terms, can we expect them to

:19:20.:19:23.

rise any time soon? Wages this year are going to go up by a bit but not

:19:24.:19:27.

very much. The rise of things that people mainly notice, energy,

:19:28.:19:31.

transport, food, rent, they are going to go up by more than the

:19:32.:19:35.

average. So, yes, the worst is over and things are recovering, but I

:19:36.:19:38.

think most people won't notice it very much. The squeeze isn't over

:19:39.:19:43.

for everyone, average numbers mask great differences between private

:19:44.:19:46.

and public, between young and old, those on the bottom will now see

:19:47.:19:51.

incomes rise by just 1%, and the smaller your income the more it

:19:52.:19:56.

hurts when it shrinks. It is a feature of modern politic in this

:19:57.:19:59.

country that party leaders hark, not to past British politicians for

:20:00.:20:03.

inspiration, but rather American greats, or not so greats,

:20:04.:20:07.

particularly in the case of George Osborne, William Hague and Michael

:20:08.:20:11.

Howard, LBJ, and Gordon Brown to JFK, but in Ed Miliband's case the

:20:12.:20:15.

evidence of his admiration for a previous American President is for

:20:16.:20:21.

one his of the repeated phrase, producer not capitalism is inspired

:20:22.:20:26.

by Roosevelt. The man who promised a square deal for every man, great or

:20:27.:20:35.

small, rich our poor. Americans reveer their constitution, their

:20:36.:20:39.

Republic and their President, Roosevelt more than most. Why is Ed

:20:40.:20:46.

Miliband so taken with him? Roosevelt was an action man, an

:20:47.:20:50.

explorer, a big game hunter. The first President to ride in a motor

:20:51.:20:53.

car, and the first head of any state to fly in a plane. Well done, Sir,

:20:54.:21:02.

great news. And a square deal for every man and every woman in the

:21:03.:21:06.

United States. He came to the White House as the champion of what he

:21:07.:21:15.

called a square deal for every American. You hear that in Ed

:21:16.:21:23.

Miliband's talk. He was a big Government robust regulation man,

:21:24.:21:26.

one of his first acts as President was to give a 20,000-word speech

:21:27.:21:33.

urging Congress to rein in the power of corporations or trust, he would

:21:34.:21:36.

be the trust-busting President, standing up for the little guy, the

:21:37.:21:40.

ordinary citizen, against the power of big money and corporate greed. Is

:21:41.:21:44.

that what inspired Ed Miliband. Should corporate Britain be worried?

:21:45.:21:50.

It was very interesting, so Ed Miliband said he would love to be

:21:51.:21:53.

like Teddy Roosevelt. Presumably he doesn't want to hunt elephants or

:21:54.:21:58.

the Amazon jungle. He loves the sense of a man commanding, a huge

:21:59.:22:01.

commanding personality who brings change. I think in a sense what

:22:02.:22:05.

disappointing people maybe about President Obama is that sense that

:22:06.:22:10.

having said "yes we can", it don't look like we can, we have a general

:22:11.:22:13.

sense of powerlessness, all through Europe and the United States, that

:22:14.:22:17.

political leaders are not achieving what people want. America is this

:22:18.:22:21.

huge democracy and is a symbol of hope. A winner Mr President, the

:22:22.:22:27.

1985... Public veneration of the office, if not always the person of

:22:28.:22:30.

the President is played out in popular culture. In the West Wing

:22:31.:22:38.

President Bartlett is always the hero of the piece, noble, selfless,

:22:39.:22:43.

wise. This is great job. In Britain not so much. Not only do you have a

:22:44.:22:47.

locking bent husband and a locking daughter that gets taken to school

:22:48.:22:51.

to a locking sedan sharks you are also locking mental. We treat our

:22:52.:22:57.

political leaders with mockery, they are incompetent, self-serving, it is

:22:58.:23:02.

Marsly. You are a locking omnishambles, that is what you are.

:23:03.:23:10.

Looking to America for inspiration goes long ago. Tony Blair and his

:23:11.:23:16.

first term as Prime Minister read Jonathan Friedland's celebration of

:23:17.:23:20.

American political values Bring Home The Revolution. There was a period

:23:21.:23:24.

in those first new Labour years when he and Gordon Brown and others were

:23:25.:23:30.

very excited by the idea of taking the best of the ideas in America.

:23:31.:23:34.

Bill Clinton was President, they liked that. There was a ready

:23:35.:23:38.

traffic in American ideas. Often forgotten, 1993 when they were just

:23:39.:23:43.

still minor members of the Shadow Cabinet, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown

:23:44.:23:46.

got on a plane and went to Washington to see the new Clinton

:23:47.:23:50.

America that was forming, weeks after Clinton was inaugurated. There

:23:51.:23:54.

was an excitement about it. A sense that America had what Britain

:23:55.:23:58.

lacked, it was forward-looking and go-getting and there was something

:23:59.:24:01.

deep in the constitution that explained that and they wanted a

:24:02.:24:07.

piece of it. Margaret Thatcher once said that in her lifetime all our

:24:08.:24:10.

problems had come from mainland Europe and all the solutions from

:24:11.:24:14.

the English-speaking peoples across the world. America offers us Teddy

:24:15.:24:20.

Roosevelt as a guiding light. How brightly will it shine in our far

:24:21.:24:30.

from ref rent political discourse? I'm joined now by the legendary

:24:31.:24:35.

American biographer whose latest work is a biography of

:24:36.:24:48.

RooseveltORCEDWHITE I'm joined now by the legendary American biographer

:24:49.:24:50.

whose latest work is a biography of Roosevelt, Welcome to the programme.

:24:51.:24:52.

All the special relationships between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald

:24:53.:24:55.

Regan and others. What do you make of this harking back to history for

:24:56.:25:00.

British politicians as some kind of, I don't know, intellectual ballast

:25:01.:25:04.

or exemption later, brownie points for British politicians who want to

:25:05.:25:18.

emulate American Presidents in For a biographer like me I love that you

:25:19.:25:21.

are looking back to the past. There is a turn between the 20th century

:25:22.:25:25.

and today. You had after the Industrial Revolution and now after

:25:26.:25:28.

the technological revolution a huge gap between the rich and the poor,

:25:29.:25:32.

huge concentrations of industries, oil, steel and banking and Teddy

:25:33.:25:37.

Roosevelt comes on the scene with enormous energy and a British

:25:38.:25:41.

Viscount said he had seen two tremendous forces of nature in

:25:42.:25:46.

America, Niagara falls and Teddy Roosevelt. He uses that to say he

:25:47.:25:50.

wants a fair deal, a square deal for everyone, rich and poor. He broke up

:25:51.:25:56.

the trusts and got into food and drugs problems, because people had

:25:57.:26:02.

not unsanitary meat and inlicensed drugs, and he became enormously

:26:03.:26:06.

popular as a result. He was saving capitalism from itself. Saving

:26:07.:26:10.

capitalism from what it had become in the guilded age. The Ed Miliband

:26:11.:26:18.

idea is he doing the same for the 20th century. Would Roosevelt have

:26:19.:26:23.

recognised the phrase "producer rather than predator capitalism"?

:26:24.:26:29.

Absolutely, he said he will be good to corporations as long as they are

:26:30.:26:33.

not predatory, if they are going against people then I'm going

:26:34.:26:39.

against them. That made him have perfect pitch for the time. It makes

:26:40.:26:42.

sense for Labour leader to say I want to use Government to make

:26:43.:26:46.

markets work so, that capitalism works. When it is unfair I will go

:26:47.:26:50.

against them. Of course the case of Ed Miliband, a centre left Labour

:26:51.:26:58.

leader, you know it gives you your book to all his friends, and is he

:26:59.:27:03.

right about this, is he hanging on to this need for a Republican hero,

:27:04.:27:07.

that is a message can you imagine the British people actually

:27:08.:27:11.

accepting? Except that radios svelted is an unusual -- Roosevelt

:27:12.:27:16.

is an unusual Republican hero, he was fighting the old guard in the

:27:17.:27:19.

party, trying to bring them into the modern age. It makes sense, as I say

:27:20.:27:23.

it is great thing for leaders to find some sort of models in the

:27:24.:27:27.

past. History teaches us things. If you have to start all over again

:27:28.:27:30.

then you are not learning from the past. It is interesting, can you

:27:31.:27:35.

imagine American politicians looking to British history for their

:27:36.:27:42.

exemplars? You would hope so, I would hope if we were in a moment we

:27:43.:27:48.

needed a Winston Churchill, I would bring him back from the dead in two

:27:49.:27:53.

seconds, he's my hero. It seems more one-sided from your point of view,

:27:54.:27:56.

but there has to be reasons to look at Britain as well. We can learn

:27:57.:27:59.

from each other, the pond isn't that big. You have done notable

:28:00.:28:03.

biographies of several American Presidents, another Roosevelt and

:28:04.:28:07.

other people. You have said in a recent interview that your next the

:28:08.:28:13.

only criterion for your next book is it is going to be about a powerful

:28:14.:28:17.

woman. Have you made your choice? Well I am thinking still of that as

:28:18.:28:21.

my next big biography, because I have lived with so many men for so

:28:22.:28:27.

long. I'm going to bring d'oh a book about leadership, bringing all my

:28:28.:28:32.

guys into one room, radios sheltie, JFK and LBJ and figuring out what

:28:33.:28:36.

traits they share together. There is a certain universal quality to

:28:37.:28:40.

leadership, in public or private life. I would like to think I have

:28:41.:28:43.

learned that by spending 40 years with these characters from the White

:28:44.:28:49.

House. We will talk about that IFS report and how it will affect the

:28:50.:28:52.

political debate in a moment. First let's reflect on the Roosevelt-Ed

:28:53.:29:05.

Miliband axis with my guests. Do you echo Ed Miliband's love of Teddy

:29:06.:29:10.

Roosevelt? It is clear that Ed Miliband would like us to be having

:29:11.:29:14.

this conversation about him having a grand vision of remaking capitalism

:29:15.:29:20.

for the 21st century. Ed Miliband's understanding of what's happened in

:29:21.:29:25.

the last ten years or so reflected in the financial crisis is the

:29:26.:29:31.

fundamental structures of our economy are broken it means people

:29:32.:29:34.

aren't getting better off. Too much power is centralised in big

:29:35.:29:37.

corporations. As we just heard that means Government has to intervene

:29:38.:29:42.

for the benefit of those people. Acti Man? Popular leader? Good

:29:43.:29:47.

relationship with the press? There is another element, when Ed Miliband

:29:48.:29:50.

became leader of the Labour Party, he said he would turn the page on

:29:51.:29:54.

new Labour. That then immediately raised the question what is your

:29:55.:29:58.

next project? What is Ed Miliband's Labour Party? The Conservatives

:29:59.:30:01.

would like it to be an old Labour and throwback to the 1970s past. He

:30:02.:30:05.

needs something to say about this project that is something other than

:30:06.:30:11.

Blairism on the one hand and 1970s neo-communism on the other hand. He

:30:12.:30:17.

has alighted on this grand new vision. It is a magnificent book,

:30:18.:30:22.

and if the Labour Party Shadow Cabinet will read it they won't do

:30:23.:30:25.

anything for the next month, it is massive. I'm really respectful of

:30:26.:30:29.

any political leader who reads history and draws from history, I

:30:30.:30:34.

think Teddy Roosevelt is an inspiring character. From one Jew to

:30:35.:30:38.

another, I have to tell Ed Miliband that neither of us are Roosevelt. I

:30:39.:30:42.

don't for a moment think he is. Definitely there are stories in

:30:43.:30:45.

there. I have said this to Conservatives about the role the

:30:46.:30:48.

state can play in improving people's lives and the important of dynamism

:30:49.:30:52.

in office. But people do tend to read in these books what they want.

:30:53.:30:57.

I was interested in Best and the Brightest used by Gordon Brown, it

:30:58.:31:01.

was actually a book about how people created the Vietnam War. He was

:31:02.:31:04.

using them as an example, in fact he was missing perhaps the fact that

:31:05.:31:09.

they created a disSAS templet Teddy Roosevelt also through his dynamism,

:31:10.:31:13.

one of the stories in the book is how they break up the progressive

:31:14.:31:17.

movement through Roosevelt's restless pragmatisim. One question I

:31:18.:31:21.

have is whether or not therefore Roosevelt is rightly seen as an

:31:22.:31:27.

idealog or better seen as a pragmatist who saw the problems of

:31:28.:31:32.

his time. The question for Ed Miliband is, is trust-busting the

:31:33.:31:36.

idea of our time? I don't think it is, dynamism has a lot to teach u

:31:37.:31:39.

surely regulation and helping the vulnerable and the poor against big

:31:40.:31:43.

power is very important. But not everything of Roosevelt. He has

:31:44.:31:47.

correctly identified something is people broadly feel there are a lot

:31:48.:31:50.

of forces acting on their lives that means they are no longer in control.

:31:51.:31:55.

A lot of anger and the rage they will be experiencing will be

:31:56.:31:57.

directed against private companies, whether rail or energy. That is a

:31:58.:32:03.

new populisim that Ed Miliband has successfully made his own. Whether

:32:04.:32:08.

it is popular capitalism or not, you have a problem tonight because that

:32:09.:32:12.

study and the new figures show that actually the cost of living crisis

:32:13.:32:18.

has been halted, not such good news for the politics of Ed Miliband? ?

:32:19.:32:24.

It is positive if the Conservatives can say things are moving in the

:32:25.:32:27.

right direction, things are getting better, it hurt but it is working.

:32:28.:32:31.

Getting better not good enough for the Conservatives to make pay out of

:32:32.:32:35.

it? The figures show people have had a real knock, and vulnerable people

:32:36.:32:41.

are feeling it, no Conservative should ignore that finding. In

:32:42.:32:44.

political science and electoral terms all the polls suggest what a

:32:45.:32:48.

really matters is what happens to personal incomes in the last year.

:32:49.:32:52.

The evidence is ambiguous, but the opt mythsic side from the

:32:53.:32:55.

Conservative point of -- optimistic side from the Conservative point of

:32:56.:32:59.

view is things are getting better but you have to feel it. Inflation

:33:00.:33:04.

is hurting poor people much more, energy prices up 60% and food prices

:33:05.:33:09.

30%? This is the problem in the fiscal crisis, one of the reasons I

:33:10.:33:12.

was passionate about the fiscal crisis, when you withdrew from it

:33:13.:33:16.

the poor and vulnerable get hit hardest because they are most

:33:17.:33:20.

reliant on state services. The big danger for Ed Miliband is going into

:33:21.:33:24.

an election saying everything is a crisis and you need a change of

:33:25.:33:27.

Government. People will think it is not bad and getting better. The big

:33:28.:33:31.

danger for the Conservatives is they are fighting campaigns saying to

:33:32.:33:35.

people you are better off than you think you are and they will say we

:33:36.:33:39.

are not. Other plank of Ed Miliband's policy going forward is

:33:40.:33:42.

the vests interest in terms of the unions and changing that. Is that

:33:43.:33:46.

more smoke and mirrors or is it for real? People are not interested in

:33:47.:33:49.

newspaper stories, what happens in their real lives is what really

:33:50.:33:52.

matters. They will believe what they actually feel. That's how they judge

:33:53.:33:55.

politics. They don't follow the stories in and out. These figures

:33:56.:33:59.

really matter. If it is true that personal income growth is going up,

:34:00.:34:02.

then all the political evidence from America is you shouldn't campaign on

:34:03.:34:08.

the economy. Planed is taking -- Ed Miliband is taking a big risking

:34:09.:34:12.

doing that. Breaking the link with the trade unions? People won't

:34:13.:34:15.

engage with the detail of it too much. The danger is it looks like Ed

:34:16.:34:24.

Miliband is having a Conservatives with chat with people in their party

:34:25.:34:30.

and they don't care much. The Ukrainian President Yanukovychian

:34:31.:34:33.

produced a sick note today might believe cynics he's pulling a sicky

:34:34.:34:38.

to remove himself from the crisis's unable to resolve. Caught between

:34:39.:34:47.

Russia bail out and the E US. The protesters were offered a

:34:48.:34:51.

contingency and it was rejected. The cabinet is only allowed to continue

:34:52.:34:54.

in his absence for 60 days. Without a Government Putin won't hand over

:34:55.:35:01.

the badly needed money as the country teeters on bankruptcy. But

:35:02.:35:06.

President Obama's supporting free expression in the Ukraine was

:35:07.:35:11.

mentioned in his State of the Union address. The barricades are more

:35:12.:35:15.

sparsely manned today. But manned they are. These protestors are

:35:16.:35:26.

hardcore, the proclaimers and the implacables, trying to rally the

:35:27.:35:30.

troops. There is no Government concession that will persuade these

:35:31.:35:35.

people to stand down. When will you leave, what will be enough for you

:35:36.:35:39.

to leave the square, to leave these barricades? When our President goes

:35:40.:35:47.

away. And only that? Only that. The policemen guarding the President's

:35:48.:35:52.

offices say they have no idea where he is? At this crucial moment in

:35:53.:36:01.

Ukraine's history everyone is asking the same question. Is the head of

:36:02.:36:06.

state really sick or has there been some sort of a coup? At the

:36:07.:36:12.

barricades the mood is darker now. The protestors suspect a ploy. While

:36:13.:36:18.

Viktor Yanukovych is ill he can't sign legislation so any compromise

:36:19.:36:26.

is on hold. I think he's scared and he doesn't have an exact plan. He's

:36:27.:36:32.

trying to buy time. Exactly. Everyone is buying time here,

:36:33.:36:36.

including the oligarchs who have supported Mr Yanukovych thus far.

:36:37.:36:40.

Now they are trying to figure out is this President a dead duck? Today

:36:41.:36:47.

Yanukovych accused his political opponents of manipulating the

:36:48.:36:50.

demonstrators, of spoking their anger. We tried to visit a Medical

:36:51.:36:55.

Centre, but the protestors turned us away. It is strange, the mood has

:36:56.:37:04.

changed and hardened. One day ago people welcomed us here they were

:37:05.:37:07.

keen to be filmed, now they are saying get out of here. Sheltering

:37:08.:37:13.

inside a makeshift guard post, we met Sergei, a former officer in

:37:14.:37:18.

Ukraine's Interior Ministry forces. The country's first President has

:37:19.:37:23.

warned that Ukraine son the brink -- is on the brink of Civil War. Sergei

:37:24.:37:30.

says his military colleagues agree. TRANSLATION: Some of them are saying

:37:31.:37:34.

they are ready to join us on the streets to demand their rights. They

:37:35.:37:37.

are saying it is the right thing to do. We have all got children and

:37:38.:37:40.

they deserve to have some sort of future, not a Government that is

:37:41.:37:47.

totally corrupt. After yesterday as concessions the opposition put on a

:37:48.:37:50.

show of strength. But there are wider forces at work here, the EU

:37:51.:37:56.

says its assistance will stop until the violence stops. Russia has

:37:57.:38:00.

threatened to withhold bail out money, piling on the economic

:38:01.:38:04.

pressure. On Independence Square this evening we saw protestors

:38:05.:38:17.

replacing tents with wooden huts. These concessions are crumbs tossed

:38:18.:38:22.

from the rich man's table, this man told me. As the politics plays out

:38:23.:38:28.

behind the scenes this stand-off is becoming ever more entrenched. A

:38:29.:38:32.

little earlier I spoke to one of Ukraine's leaders who isn't sick,

:38:33.:38:40.

the Vice President. You are in a situation where your President has

:38:41.:38:44.

gone sick today, you don't have a Prime Minister, is there any chance

:38:45.:38:47.

do you think that the President will actually return to his post? Well

:38:48.:38:52.

the President being sick means that he does have to stay in bed or any

:38:53.:38:58.

way close to medical help. But it doesn't mean that he is not aware of

:38:59.:39:06.

the situation and is not making sure that what needs to be done is being

:39:07.:39:11.

done in this country. The Ukraine is stuck, because it is stuck between

:39:12.:39:17.

Russia to the east and the EU to the west with President Obama also

:39:18.:39:22.

calling for free expression. What are you to do? The thing is that

:39:23.:39:30.

where we are was defined by geography. Where we would like to be

:39:31.:39:35.

is in the political structure of the EU. That is what we tried to

:39:36.:39:39.

achieve. We strived to achieve it for quite a number of years.

:39:40.:39:43.

Including the last four years and the President Yanukovych. The thing

:39:44.:39:50.

is that for that we really had to be much more interconnective in what we

:39:51.:39:56.

would like to achieve. Both the Ukraine and the European Union. And

:39:57.:39:59.

we also need to make sure that there is a balance, balance of interests

:40:00.:40:05.

and understanding of the future, among the Ukraine, EU and Russia. Is

:40:06.:40:15.

the Ukrainian Government scared of Vladimir Putin? They are not scared

:40:16.:40:20.

of Russia of the United States, of the EU, of any of our neighbours and

:40:21.:40:25.

partners. We do engage with all of our neighbours and partners. Because

:40:26.:40:33.

they are important for our future. The Russian market is important for

:40:34.:40:38.

the well being of a very large part of the Ukrainians be it in the east

:40:39.:40:46.

or west. Millions do work there or the temporary basis in Russia and

:40:47.:40:51.

the EU as well. We need to find a solution where everyone would be

:40:52.:40:56.

comfortable with what we have proclaimed as our goal. Going into

:40:57.:41:01.

association with Europe, but on the basis of a very well defined

:41:02.:41:07.

national interest, which should not contradict a long-term view of

:41:08.:41:11.

Europe. At the same time would not scare Russia which believes, for the

:41:12.:41:16.

time being, that these would create a loophole in the custom protection

:41:17.:41:21.

that they believe is so important for their customs union. So that is

:41:22.:41:26.

something. Where we see the solution in tri-lateral negotiations between

:41:27.:41:32.

the Ukraine, Russia and the European Union. It was rejected. Are you

:41:33.:41:36.

absolutely sure, finally, are you absolutely sure, finally, that your

:41:37.:41:40.

country will not descend into Civil War? We need to have a peaceful

:41:41.:41:44.

solution which only can be achieved through dialogue. But this dialogue

:41:45.:41:51.

needs to lead to functionable, efficient Government. Be it through

:41:52.:41:54.

a coalition Government, be it through a change to constitution,

:41:55.:41:59.

everything is now open for discussion. There is an offer for

:42:00.:42:05.

one of the leaders of the opposition to become Prime Minister. The other

:42:06.:42:10.

leader was offered my position. I'm eager to really give him my own

:42:11.:42:16.

functions as they are clearly difficult but also very important to

:42:17.:42:20.

the people of Ukraine. Thank you very much. The Greek poet is known

:42:21.:42:29.

more by repute than by her verse, the aproper racial of the term to

:42:30.:42:34.

mean lesbian love. It was thought that four peoples along with --

:42:35.:42:39.

poems along with fragments of verse had survived. The discovery of two

:42:40.:42:45.

new poems has transformed what we know about the new Greek poet who

:42:46.:42:54.

composed in the year seven BC. What is your reaction? Suffo is one of my

:42:55.:43:00.

favourite poets of all time, she allows us to get directly into the

:43:01.:43:06.

lives of ancient Greek women, in the middle of the 7th century BC. We

:43:07.:43:14.

have a lot of poems by her which is about lesbian love, and another one

:43:15.:43:18.

which is about being a responsible interest to brothers. There is two

:43:19.:43:26.

new poem, how much does that excite new study? It will excite a great

:43:27.:43:32.

deal of new studio, we have so many stance is a, a lot of what --

:43:33.:43:40.

stanza, this really changes how we think about women on the island and

:43:41.:43:45.

in the Aegean sea in this period of time. It shows awful lot of ancient

:43:46.:43:51.

sources said she was always talking about her brothers, a lot of people

:43:52.:43:54.

didn't believe that. These brothers are named in the poem, we know from

:43:55.:44:00.

other sources the names are correct? She has an elder broth that seems to

:44:01.:44:05.

be a bit of a bad lad, he has gone to sea and responsibly left her back

:44:06.:44:10.

at home. He may or may not be off with the famous court sap in Egypt.

:44:11.:44:18.

She's worried about his return? People promises he's coming back.

:44:19.:44:22.

She goes through five different emotion, she says stop harassing me

:44:23.:44:27.

with gossip you don't know, you should tell me to go to the Queen,

:44:28.:44:37.

you will hear that word Heran, the Queen Hera, she says it is better to

:44:38.:44:42.

be calm and leave it rest in the lap of the gods. My younger brother I'm

:44:43.:44:46.

worried about, we want him to be OK so we will be safe and sound on

:44:47.:44:55.

Lesbos. She's your favourite poet, in the canon of poetry from that

:44:56.:44:59.

period is she a great poet? Absolutely, Suffo invents the love

:45:00.:45:06.

song. She invents the subjective "I" voice, where you say how you feel in

:45:07.:45:11.

love. She is the first great lyric love poet in western culture. The

:45:12.:45:17.

fact that it is 2,700 years ago, can you imagine being able to listen to

:45:18.:45:22.

the voice of a British woman from 700 BC. These were found in peace

:45:23.:45:31.

process pyrrhus that has -- papyrus, in a private collection, is there

:45:32.:45:35.

any more? More of ancient Greek poetry. There are boxes still

:45:36.:45:40.

sitting from various rubbish Duchess in Ancient Egypt. Where are they?

:45:41.:45:46.

Some of them are in boxes in humans, some are still wrapped around

:45:47.:45:49.

Egyptian mummies, they were wrapped up in paper and people would peel

:45:50.:45:57.

off the paper and we find find poems on those. I'm sure there are more to

:45:58.:46:04.

be dug up in the sand of Egypt. Some are in private collection? There is

:46:05.:46:09.

a huge black market to do with classical antiquities, I'm not

:46:10.:46:14.

remotely alleging this is one. It is clear the editor of the pan papyrus

:46:15.:46:26.

doesn't know where it should be. Do you think this is going to lead to a

:46:27.:46:32.

kind of reappraisal of Saffo as a poet? It will mean an enormous

:46:33.:46:36.

amount of new business for Greek professor, but to me it is so

:46:37.:46:41.

exciting when people think the classics is dead or closed off we

:46:42.:46:45.

get a whole new emotional sequence from this wonderful woman. Hang on

:46:46.:46:51.

just a minute, Edith will read out some of that newly discovered Saffo,

:46:52.:46:56.

in the original Greek. Hello a few showers around through

:46:57.:48:11.

the night. Mist and

:48:12.:48:13.

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