30/01/2014 Newsnight


Interview with Amanda Knox; on the ground in Ukraine; Ed Miliband and Roosevelt; the cost of living; and "new" works by Greek poet Sappho.

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She has no intention of leaving America. What happens next? We have


a new interview with her as she awaited the verdict. I am I'm


definitely going back willingly. They will have to catch me and pull


me back kicking and screaming into a prison I don't deserve to be in.


It has dominated the headlines but is the cost of living crisis over.


We have new figures released in the last few minutes, and some guests to


crunch the numbers. The Republican President, Roosevelt


was a hero to many, and still is to Ed Miliband. Why do British MPs have


American Idols? We will ask Roosevelt's biographer.


The President of the Ukraine has gone sick, leaving the ragtag of


protestors. At the crucial moment in Ukraine's


history everyone is asking the same question, is thehead of state sick


or has there been a coup. In an exclusive Newsnight interview we


speak to one of the people supposed to be in charge.


Good evenings, once again Amanda Knox and herit Italian former


boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, have been found guilty of the you are


inneder of -- murder of Meredith Kercher. The Appeal Court upheld


convictions that were overturned in 2011. Since then she has been in the


US where she is now in Seattle. Tonight she said she was frightened


and saddened by the unjust verdict. Meredith Kercher's brother and


sister were in court again today for the latest round in the battle for


justice. Italian national, Raffaele Sollecito, originally accused of her


killing was in court for retry his former codefendant, US citizen,


Amanda Knox, did not return to the country. In 2007, 21-year-old


Meredith was found dead at her flat with 46 stab wounds. The pair were


the next day and prosecuted, prosecutors tried to prove Meredith


had died in a sex game gone wrong. Rudy Guede was sentenced to 16 years


in prison for the murder in a separate trial. Defendants are


acquitted. The convictions against Knox and Sollecito was overturned


after concerns were raised about procedures used to gather DNA


evidence. But last year the Supreme Court quashed the acquittals citing


inconsistencies in the case. Whether or not Knox and Sollecito will


appeal the decision, or whether Knox will be extradited from the US. The


Kercher family can only hope at last they are closer to finding out the


truth about what happened to Meredith. The Guardian secured


access to Amanda Knox as she awaited the verdict of the retrial. With her


heart in her throat, she said. A lot of the times when I'm interacting


with somebody and they don't recognise me immediately and they


ask me questions, hair, so what major are you, a creative writing


major. They are asking am I senior or freshman. And I'm like a senior.


They are like how old are you, 26, what have you been doing to take so


long, I'm like I was studying abroad. Really where were you


studying abroad in Italy, that must have been awesome, I'm like ahhhh,


explain, and it's like, I was in prison. How close do you think the


Amanda from the tabloid, or the British tabloids in particular was


to you? There was this portrayal of me as being sex obsessed and drug


addled and a manipulator and a liar. Being in this complete criminal


control of myself and other people. That is absolutely foreign to


everything that I am. If I was a stranger coming to you and saying, I


know you, you're Amanda Knox, you murdered Meredith Kercher, what


would you the two facts that you would tell me that make it


impossible for you to have committed that crime? Meredith was my friend,


and I would never have done anything like that, no history of crime. It


is just not me. And two there is no trace of me in that room. So how


would I have committed it? You cannot commit a murder and then like


have all of this evidence, all of this blood everywhere, all of the


evidence of the person who did it and that not be me, and then say,


yeah I was the one who plunged the knife, it is literally impossible.


What would it mean to you if you were found guilty. Well, it would


feel like a train wreck. There is not a lot I can do after this


appeal. They would order my arrest and the Italian Government would


approach the American Government and say extradite her. And I don't know


what would happen. I'm still counting on an acquittal. I don't


know if this story is out, I think it is, you said if they ask for you


to return, if you are found guilty you're not going back there? I'm not


willingly going back, no. I'm not going to... The quote was "I will


he' be a fugutive". What I said was I will technically be considered a


fugutive. I don't know what I'm going to do. I won't go willingly,


they will have to catch me and pull me back, kicking and screaming into


a prison that I don't deserve to be in. Amanda's friend, Madison moved


to Perugia to support her when she was in prison. I'm on my way to see


both of them in Amanda's flat. I want to see her with someone she


trusts. At any point in that first interrogation think you needed a


lawyer? I asked them if I needed lawyer, because I didn't understand


if they were having a problem with me or if they were, like, they made


it seem like they knew that I had witnessed the murder and that I knew


who the murderer was, and I just needed to tell them. I was either


lying or I had -- amnesia, I wasn't lying, I started to believe I had


amnesia, otherwise I couldn't believe what was happening to me.


What was it like? It is a very specific process of how it worked. I


knew what I did that night, I remembered it, I was with Raffaele


Sollecito, we had dinner, we did what we always do on all the nights


together. Then they started questioning me about that and making


me doubt what I was telling them. They said OK if you had dinner at


this time, what were you doing at this time and so between seven and


eight you are doing this what about between eight and nine, and what


about between nine and ten. And when you have, I kept telling them, look


I don't know what time I was doing things, all I can tell you is I left


my house, me and afael went to his house, we were hanging out and


listening to music, I remember reading e-mail, we talked, we ate


dinner, that is what we z I am a telling you this. They made it seem


because I couldn't chronologically put everything in order in time made


it seem like I had something wrong with my memory. They said if you


can't remember what happened then there is something wrong with you


and you are lying, and we know that you are lying. They told me Rafael


said I wasn't. There that completely threw me off, I couldn't understand


why he would say that? Which also wasn't true. When I named Patrick is


when I finally just broke, I thought oh my God it must be true what I'm


saying, that I'm traumatised and I experienced whatever it is that it


is, I must have witnessed my friend's murder some how, and I'm


scared and all of a sudden like that idea, it was already bad enough when


I had to go into the house and they asked me to identify knives that


could have killed her. And then all of a sudden the idea that I must


have witnessed it and now I'm traumatised enough to not even


remember it. To all of a sudden be drawn into this horrible idea of


what happened was so completely overwhelming that I just wept for I


don't know how long, I was delirious. It was only after they


had all left and rushed off and there was only one of them kind of


sitting there, eyeing me, making sure that I didn't do anything. I


was sitting there a long time and thinking, trying to make sense of


what just happened. I felt horrible, I didn't even know what to think any


more. I was so confused and all I wanted was my mom. I kept asking can


I please call my mom, no. My mom is coming here I need to talk to my


mom. She was going to be arriving at the train station that morning. I


kept hearing my phone ring. I had phone on my desk, it was my mom


calling, I knew it was my mom calling, she was going to freak out.


It was bad enough growing up when I came home late from school and she


didn't know where I was. But my friend had just been murdered and


now I'm not answering my cellphone and it is right there and I want to


answer and they tell me I can't. And I'm freaking out and I just want to


talk to my mom. I think one of the most difficult things for you has


been whatever the evidence has been there has been no way of swaying


Meredith's family. The idea that they believe that justice for me


automatically means injustice for Meredith horrifies me. Because that


is impossible for them to live with and I hate that idea. I think they


have come round from thinking you were the killer to, not thinking


that but they do think there was something that you knew that there


was something. I had so many people tell me that, how do you think you


can overcome that, it can only be rooted in your confession? And I


really believe that is the case that people think there must be something


wrong with me. Just like I thought there must be something wrong with


me. Because how could anyone do that? But again, the only thing I


can do is testify to what happened to me. And hope that people could


take a step back from their emotional investment and try to


empathise. Amanda Knox, well we have the Rome correspondent for the


Sunday Times and the author of Death in Perugia. . Are you surprised by


the verdict or not? No, because when the Supreme Court ordered this new


trial it was actually pointing towards a conviction, it was tearing


to shreds the previous acquittal and the whole way this trial has gone.


It was indicating that this was going towards a conviction. Tonight


again Amanda Knox is in, by law, a killer, what do you think it has


been like for the Kercher family. Has it given them, do you think,


today will it have given them any sense of finality or not? When I


spoke to them after the last time that Amanda and Raffaele Sollecito


were convicted. As they said at this time it was not a time to celebrate.


What is important for them to find out what actually happened. Part of


that for them is having a definitive ruling, because now this is not a


definitive ruling it will now go back to the supreme Court. I'm not


sure the Italian courts will give the family an explanation of how and


why Meredith died. As you heard from Knox, she will be kicking and


screaming before she leaves America, she says the Italians will now put


warrant out for her arrest. There is a very old, well from the 1980s


extradition agreement between America and Italy. Will that be


automatic? It is not automatic, it is pretty hard to predict, but in


most cases requests for extradition are met. There have been some


exceptions, there was some CIA agents who kidnapped a Muslim cleric


in Milan, the extradition was refused for them N this case it is a


decision for John Kerry, the Secretary of State. There is quite a


strong media campaign in the states for Amanda's innocence, which will


go into top gear to block the extradition. It is a choice for the


Obama administration to disappoint an important ally like Italy or


whether to go ahead with the extradition. As far as the media


campaign is concerned in Italy tonight, what is the response from


newspapers and television? Well it has been, it is a huge story here,


it will be all over the front pages tomorrow morning. I think we can say


that the coverage generally reflects the general belief in Italy for


public opinion is that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are builty of


-- guilty of killing Meredith, despite their protesting their


innocence. How long a process will it be? Several months. It will go


back to the Supreme Court, and then Amanda and Sollecito will get


another chance to argue their case. Difficult to predict these rulings.


Given the Supreme Court had previously trashed the acquittal, it


would be surprising if the Supreme Court went back on what it had ruled


previously, one could expect a new definitive conviction this time.


Thank you very much indeed. A central plank of Ed Miliband's


economic attack in the coalition has been his convention -- contention


that the economic growth figures might have been better than they


were last year. However a new report from the Institute of Fiscal Studies


released a few moments ago shows the latest analysis that shows living


standards are dramatically down before the global financial crisis


hit, the fall in household incomes has now come to a halt. Ealing Green


in west London isn't exactly down at heel. A four-bed house costs a


million pounds here. During the crisis the boutiques and posh


restaurants gave way to... Posh charity shops. Surely it wasn't here


that the crisis hit hardest? Remember how those with the biggest


shoulders were supposed to bear the biggest burden, if you take


everything happening to income, tax and benefits, and if you assume


everyone has faced the same rise in the cost of living. Everything they


pay for, then that turns out to be true. The people who have been


squeezed hardest are the richest. Here is what happened to real


incomes after tax and benefit changes, assuming price rises were


the same for everyone. The richest saw their incomes shrink by 9% since


the financial crisis began, those in the middle were squeezed by 6%, and


because benefits went up with inflation, the poorest tenth were


only squeezed by 2. 4%. If you look straight forwardedly at what has


happened to people's incomes, compare it with the average rate of


inflation, it looks like those at the top of the income distribution


have done quite a lot worse than people towards the bottom of the


distribution. That reflects the fact that wages have been going down


relative to prices and at least until this year most benefits have


been going up in line with prices. Are you feeling squeezed


income-wise? Not particularly no. But I have to tighten my belt. I'm


not better off but I'm not really squeezed. Are you feeling squeezed?


Completely. How? Wages haven't gone up for the past five years.


Wage-freeze at the moment, that's right. At least five years. I don't


feel things have got better. You only find the richest are squeezed


hardest if price rises are the same for everyone. The rise in the cost


of living hasn't been the same for rich and poor. The poorer you are


the more of your income you are to spend on food and fuel, which have


gone up a lot. So the inflation rate for the poor has been higher than


for the rich. When you take that into account the picture of who has


been squeezed hardest looks very different. The Institute forcal


Studies says if you count in those different rates of inflation the


real squeeze on living standards was looser for the richest and tighter


for the poorest, we were all squeezed as hard as each other. If


you then look at people's differing living costs you get a bit of a


different pattern. Because people on high-levels of income have seen very


often their mortgage rates go down f they have a mortgage, and because


food rises and energy prices are gone up very fast, and that's a big


part of the budget of poorer households, you see inflation has


hit the poorer groups much harder than it has hit the richer groups.


If you take account of that it is much more like the reduction in real


incomes or living standards as being flat across the distribution. If


wages have already stopped falling in real terms, can we expect them to


rise any time soon? Wages this year are going to go up by a bit but not


very much. The rise of things that people mainly notice, energy,


transport, food, rent, they are going to go up by more than the


average. So, yes, the worst is over and things are recovering, but I


think most people won't notice it very much. The squeeze isn't over


for everyone, average numbers mask great differences between private


and public, between young and old, those on the bottom will now see


incomes rise by just 1%, and the smaller your income the more it


hurts when it shrinks. It is a feature of modern politic in this


country that party leaders hark, not to past British politicians for


inspiration, but rather American greats, or not so greats,


particularly in the case of George Osborne, William Hague and Michael


Howard, LBJ, and Gordon Brown to JFK, but in Ed Miliband's case the


evidence of his admiration for a previous American President is for


one his of the repeated phrase, producer not capitalism is inspired


by Roosevelt. The man who promised a square deal for every man, great or


small, rich our poor. Americans reveer their constitution, their


Republic and their President, Roosevelt more than most. Why is Ed


Miliband so taken with him? Roosevelt was an action man, an


explorer, a big game hunter. The first President to ride in a motor


car, and the first head of any state to fly in a plane. Well done, Sir,


great news. And a square deal for every man and every woman in the


United States. He came to the White House as the champion of what he


called a square deal for every American. You hear that in Ed


Miliband's talk. He was a big Government robust regulation man,


one of his first acts as President was to give a 20,000-word speech


urging Congress to rein in the power of corporations or trust, he would


be the trust-busting President, standing up for the little guy, the


ordinary citizen, against the power of big money and corporate greed. Is


that what inspired Ed Miliband. Should corporate Britain be worried?


It was very interesting, so Ed Miliband said he would love to be


like Teddy Roosevelt. Presumably he doesn't want to hunt elephants or


the Amazon jungle. He loves the sense of a man commanding, a huge


commanding personality who brings change. I think in a sense what


disappointing people maybe about President Obama is that sense that


having said "yes we can", it don't look like we can, we have a general


sense of powerlessness, all through Europe and the United States, that


political leaders are not achieving what people want. America is this


huge democracy and is a symbol of hope. A winner Mr President, the


1985... Public veneration of the office, if not always the person of


the President is played out in popular culture. In the West Wing


President Bartlett is always the hero of the piece, noble, selfless,


wise. This is great job. In Britain not so much. Not only do you have a


locking bent husband and a locking daughter that gets taken to school


to a locking sedan sharks you are also locking mental. We treat our


political leaders with mockery, they are incompetent, self-serving, it is


Marsly. You are a locking omnishambles, that is what you are.


Looking to America for inspiration goes long ago. Tony Blair and his


first term as Prime Minister read Jonathan Friedland's celebration of


American political values Bring Home The Revolution. There was a period


in those first new Labour years when he and Gordon Brown and others were


very excited by the idea of taking the best of the ideas in America.


Bill Clinton was President, they liked that. There was a ready


traffic in American ideas. Often forgotten, 1993 when they were just


still minor members of the Shadow Cabinet, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown


got on a plane and went to Washington to see the new Clinton


America that was forming, weeks after Clinton was inaugurated. There


was an excitement about it. A sense that America had what Britain


lacked, it was forward-looking and go-getting and there was something


deep in the constitution that explained that and they wanted a


piece of it. Margaret Thatcher once said that in her lifetime all our


problems had come from mainland Europe and all the solutions from


the English-speaking peoples across the world. America offers us Teddy


Roosevelt as a guiding light. How brightly will it shine in our far


from ref rent political discourse? I'm joined now by the legendary


American biographer whose latest work is a biography of


RooseveltORCEDWHITE I'm joined now by the legendary American biographer


whose latest work is a biography of Roosevelt, Welcome to the programme.


All the special relationships between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald


Regan and others. What do you make of this harking back to history for


British politicians as some kind of, I don't know, intellectual ballast


or exemption later, brownie points for British politicians who want to


emulate American Presidents in For a biographer like me I love that you


are looking back to the past. There is a turn between the 20th century


and today. You had after the Industrial Revolution and now after


the technological revolution a huge gap between the rich and the poor,


huge concentrations of industries, oil, steel and banking and Teddy


Roosevelt comes on the scene with enormous energy and a British


Viscount said he had seen two tremendous forces of nature in


America, Niagara falls and Teddy Roosevelt. He uses that to say he


wants a fair deal, a square deal for everyone, rich and poor. He broke up


the trusts and got into food and drugs problems, because people had


not unsanitary meat and inlicensed drugs, and he became enormously


popular as a result. He was saving capitalism from itself. Saving


capitalism from what it had become in the guilded age. The Ed Miliband


idea is he doing the same for the 20th century. Would Roosevelt have


recognised the phrase "producer rather than predator capitalism"?


Absolutely, he said he will be good to corporations as long as they are


not predatory, if they are going against people then I'm going


against them. That made him have perfect pitch for the time. It makes


sense for Labour leader to say I want to use Government to make


markets work so, that capitalism works. When it is unfair I will go


against them. Of course the case of Ed Miliband, a centre left Labour


leader, you know it gives you your book to all his friends, and is he


right about this, is he hanging on to this need for a Republican hero,


that is a message can you imagine the British people actually


accepting? Except that radios svelted is an unusual -- Roosevelt


is an unusual Republican hero, he was fighting the old guard in the


party, trying to bring them into the modern age. It makes sense, as I say


it is great thing for leaders to find some sort of models in the


past. History teaches us things. If you have to start all over again


then you are not learning from the past. It is interesting, can you


imagine American politicians looking to British history for their


exemplars? You would hope so, I would hope if we were in a moment we


needed a Winston Churchill, I would bring him back from the dead in two


seconds, he's my hero. It seems more one-sided from your point of view,


but there has to be reasons to look at Britain as well. We can learn


from each other, the pond isn't that big. You have done notable


biographies of several American Presidents, another Roosevelt and


other people. You have said in a recent interview that your next the


only criterion for your next book is it is going to be about a powerful


woman. Have you made your choice? Well I am thinking still of that as


my next big biography, because I have lived with so many men for so


long. I'm going to bring d'oh a book about leadership, bringing all my


guys into one room, radios sheltie, JFK and LBJ and figuring out what


traits they share together. There is a certain universal quality to


leadership, in public or private life. I would like to think I have


learned that by spending 40 years with these characters from the White


House. We will talk about that IFS report and how it will affect the


political debate in a moment. First let's reflect on the Roosevelt-Ed


Miliband axis with my guests. Do you echo Ed Miliband's love of Teddy


Roosevelt? It is clear that Ed Miliband would like us to be having


this conversation about him having a grand vision of remaking capitalism


for the 21st century. Ed Miliband's understanding of what's happened in


the last ten years or so reflected in the financial crisis is the


fundamental structures of our economy are broken it means people


aren't getting better off. Too much power is centralised in big


corporations. As we just heard that means Government has to intervene


for the benefit of those people. Acti Man? Popular leader? Good


relationship with the press? There is another element, when Ed Miliband


became leader of the Labour Party, he said he would turn the page on


new Labour. That then immediately raised the question what is your


next project? What is Ed Miliband's Labour Party? The Conservatives


would like it to be an old Labour and throwback to the 1970s past. He


needs something to say about this project that is something other than


Blairism on the one hand and 1970s neo-communism on the other hand. He


has alighted on this grand new vision. It is a magnificent book,


and if the Labour Party Shadow Cabinet will read it they won't do


anything for the next month, it is massive. I'm really respectful of


any political leader who reads history and draws from history, I


think Teddy Roosevelt is an inspiring character. From one Jew to


another, I have to tell Ed Miliband that neither of us are Roosevelt. I


don't for a moment think he is. Definitely there are stories in


there. I have said this to Conservatives about the role the


state can play in improving people's lives and the important of dynamism


in office. But people do tend to read in these books what they want.


I was interested in Best and the Brightest used by Gordon Brown, it


was actually a book about how people created the Vietnam War. He was


using them as an example, in fact he was missing perhaps the fact that


they created a disSAS templet Teddy Roosevelt also through his dynamism,


one of the stories in the book is how they break up the progressive


movement through Roosevelt's restless pragmatisim. One question I


have is whether or not therefore Roosevelt is rightly seen as an


idealog or better seen as a pragmatist who saw the problems of


his time. The question for Ed Miliband is, is trust-busting the


idea of our time? I don't think it is, dynamism has a lot to teach u


surely regulation and helping the vulnerable and the poor against big


power is very important. But not everything of Roosevelt. He has


correctly identified something is people broadly feel there are a lot


of forces acting on their lives that means they are no longer in control.


A lot of anger and the rage they will be experiencing will be


directed against private companies, whether rail or energy. That is a


new populisim that Ed Miliband has successfully made his own. Whether


it is popular capitalism or not, you have a problem tonight because that


study and the new figures show that actually the cost of living crisis


has been halted, not such good news for the politics of Ed Miliband? ?


It is positive if the Conservatives can say things are moving in the


right direction, things are getting better, it hurt but it is working.


Getting better not good enough for the Conservatives to make pay out of


it? The figures show people have had a real knock, and vulnerable people


are feeling it, no Conservative should ignore that finding. In


political science and electoral terms all the polls suggest what a


really matters is what happens to personal incomes in the last year.


The evidence is ambiguous, but the opt mythsic side from the


Conservative point of -- optimistic side from the Conservative point of


view is things are getting better but you have to feel it. Inflation


is hurting poor people much more, energy prices up 60% and food prices


30%? This is the problem in the fiscal crisis, one of the reasons I


was passionate about the fiscal crisis, when you withdrew from it


the poor and vulnerable get hit hardest because they are most


reliant on state services. The big danger for Ed Miliband is going into


an election saying everything is a crisis and you need a change of


Government. People will think it is not bad and getting better. The big


danger for the Conservatives is they are fighting campaigns saying to


people you are better off than you think you are and they will say we


are not. Other plank of Ed Miliband's policy going forward is


the vests interest in terms of the unions and changing that. Is that


more smoke and mirrors or is it for real? People are not interested in


newspaper stories, what happens in their real lives is what really


matters. They will believe what they actually feel. That's how they judge


politics. They don't follow the stories in and out. These figures


really matter. If it is true that personal income growth is going up,


then all the political evidence from America is you shouldn't campaign on


the economy. Planed is taking -- Ed Miliband is taking a big risking


doing that. Breaking the link with the trade unions? People won't


engage with the detail of it too much. The danger is it looks like Ed


Miliband is having a Conservatives with chat with people in their party


and they don't care much. The Ukrainian President Yanukovychian


produced a sick note today might believe cynics he's pulling a sicky


to remove himself from the crisis's unable to resolve. Caught between


Russia bail out and the E US. The protesters were offered a


contingency and it was rejected. The cabinet is only allowed to continue


in his absence for 60 days. Without a Government Putin won't hand over


the badly needed money as the country teeters on bankruptcy. But


President Obama's supporting free expression in the Ukraine was


mentioned in his State of the Union address. The barricades are more


sparsely manned today. But manned they are. These protestors are


hardcore, the proclaimers and the implacables, trying to rally the


troops. There is no Government concession that will persuade these


people to stand down. When will you leave, what will be enough for you


to leave the square, to leave these barricades? When our President goes


away. And only that? Only that. The policemen guarding the President's


offices say they have no idea where he is? At this crucial moment in


Ukraine's history everyone is asking the same question. Is the head of


state really sick or has there been some sort of a coup? At the


barricades the mood is darker now. The protestors suspect a ploy. While


Viktor Yanukovych is ill he can't sign legislation so any compromise


is on hold. I think he's scared and he doesn't have an exact plan. He's


trying to buy time. Exactly. Everyone is buying time here,


including the oligarchs who have supported Mr Yanukovych thus far.


Now they are trying to figure out is this President a dead duck? Today


Yanukovych accused his political opponents of manipulating the


demonstrators, of spoking their anger. We tried to visit a Medical


Centre, but the protestors turned us away. It is strange, the mood has


changed and hardened. One day ago people welcomed us here they were


keen to be filmed, now they are saying get out of here. Sheltering


inside a makeshift guard post, we met Sergei, a former officer in


Ukraine's Interior Ministry forces. The country's first President has


warned that Ukraine son the brink -- is on the brink of Civil War. Sergei


says his military colleagues agree. TRANSLATION: Some of them are saying


they are ready to join us on the streets to demand their rights. They


are saying it is the right thing to do. We have all got children and


they deserve to have some sort of future, not a Government that is


totally corrupt. After yesterday as concessions the opposition put on a


show of strength. But there are wider forces at work here, the EU


says its assistance will stop until the violence stops. Russia has


threatened to withhold bail out money, piling on the economic


pressure. On Independence Square this evening we saw protestors


replacing tents with wooden huts. These concessions are crumbs tossed


from the rich man's table, this man told me. As the politics plays out


behind the scenes this stand-off is becoming ever more entrenched. A


little earlier I spoke to one of Ukraine's leaders who isn't sick,


the Vice President. You are in a situation where your President has


gone sick today, you don't have a Prime Minister, is there any chance


do you think that the President will actually return to his post? Well


the President being sick means that he does have to stay in bed or any


way close to medical help. But it doesn't mean that he is not aware of


the situation and is not making sure that what needs to be done is being


done in this country. The Ukraine is stuck, because it is stuck between


Russia to the east and the EU to the west with President Obama also


calling for free expression. What are you to do? The thing is that


where we are was defined by geography. Where we would like to be


is in the political structure of the EU. That is what we tried to


achieve. We strived to achieve it for quite a number of years.


Including the last four years and the President Yanukovych. The thing


is that for that we really had to be much more interconnective in what we


would like to achieve. Both the Ukraine and the European Union. And


we also need to make sure that there is a balance, balance of interests


and understanding of the future, among the Ukraine, EU and Russia. Is


the Ukrainian Government scared of Vladimir Putin? They are not scared


of Russia of the United States, of the EU, of any of our neighbours and


partners. We do engage with all of our neighbours and partners. Because


they are important for our future. The Russian market is important for


the well being of a very large part of the Ukrainians be it in the east


or west. Millions do work there or the temporary basis in Russia and


the EU as well. We need to find a solution where everyone would be


comfortable with what we have proclaimed as our goal. Going into


association with Europe, but on the basis of a very well defined


national interest, which should not contradict a long-term view of


Europe. At the same time would not scare Russia which believes, for the


time being, that these would create a loophole in the custom protection


that they believe is so important for their customs union. So that is


something. Where we see the solution in tri-lateral negotiations between


the Ukraine, Russia and the European Union. It was rejected. Are you


absolutely sure, finally, are you absolutely sure, finally, that your


country will not descend into Civil War? We need to have a peaceful


solution which only can be achieved through dialogue. But this dialogue


needs to lead to functionable, efficient Government. Be it through


a coalition Government, be it through a change to constitution,


everything is now open for discussion. There is an offer for


one of the leaders of the opposition to become Prime Minister. The other


leader was offered my position. I'm eager to really give him my own


functions as they are clearly difficult but also very important to


the people of Ukraine. Thank you very much. The Greek poet is known


more by repute than by her verse, the aproper racial of the term to


mean lesbian love. It was thought that four peoples along with --


poems along with fragments of verse had survived. The discovery of two


new poems has transformed what we know about the new Greek poet who


composed in the year seven BC. What is your reaction? Suffo is one of my


favourite poets of all time, she allows us to get directly into the


lives of ancient Greek women, in the middle of the 7th century BC. We


have a lot of poems by her which is about lesbian love, and another one


which is about being a responsible interest to brothers. There is two


new poem, how much does that excite new study? It will excite a great


deal of new studio, we have so many stance is a, a lot of what --


stanza, this really changes how we think about women on the island and


in the Aegean sea in this period of time. It shows awful lot of ancient


sources said she was always talking about her brothers, a lot of people


didn't believe that. These brothers are named in the poem, we know from


other sources the names are correct? She has an elder broth that seems to


be a bit of a bad lad, he has gone to sea and responsibly left her back


at home. He may or may not be off with the famous court sap in Egypt.


She's worried about his return? People promises he's coming back.


She goes through five different emotion, she says stop harassing me


with gossip you don't know, you should tell me to go to the Queen,


you will hear that word Heran, the Queen Hera, she says it is better to


be calm and leave it rest in the lap of the gods. My younger brother I'm


worried about, we want him to be OK so we will be safe and sound on


Lesbos. She's your favourite poet, in the canon of poetry from that


period is she a great poet? Absolutely, Suffo invents the love


song. She invents the subjective "I" voice, where you say how you feel in


love. She is the first great lyric love poet in western culture. The


fact that it is 2,700 years ago, can you imagine being able to listen to


the voice of a British woman from 700 BC. These were found in peace


process pyrrhus that has -- papyrus, in a private collection, is there


any more? More of ancient Greek poetry. There are boxes still


sitting from various rubbish Duchess in Ancient Egypt. Where are they?


Some of them are in boxes in humans, some are still wrapped around


Egyptian mummies, they were wrapped up in paper and people would peel


off the paper and we find find poems on those. I'm sure there are more to


be dug up in the sand of Egypt. Some are in private collection? There is


a huge black market to do with classical antiquities, I'm not


remotely alleging this is one. It is clear the editor of the pan papyrus


doesn't know where it should be. Do you think this is going to lead to a


kind of reappraisal of Saffo as a poet? It will mean an enormous


amount of new business for Greek professor, but to me it is so


exciting when people think the classics is dead or closed off we


get a whole new emotional sequence from this wonderful woman. Hang on


just a minute, Edith will read out some of that newly discovered Saffo,


in the original Greek. Hello a few showers around through


the night. Mist and


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