06/02/2014 Newsnight


06/02/2014

Police complaints radically reformed. The terror threat to Sochi. Cancer adverts. Separating the art from the unsavoury artist. Too few women scientists?


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Transcript


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It's the Love Actually moment for the union. The Prime Minister will

:00:11.:00:15.

tomorrow make his most emotive appeal so far to keep Scotland in

:00:16.:00:21.

the UK. Will evoking the Team GB Olympic spirit play better at

:00:22.:00:24.

Westminster than in the Western Isles.

:00:25.:00:27.

On the eve of the winter Olympic, new warnings from US security about

:00:28.:00:31.

the terror threat. We have exclusive new information.

:00:32.:00:36.

We have heard directly from the militant group threatening to take

:00:37.:00:39.

the games in so muchy. They have told us Russia's unprecedented

:00:40.:00:44.

security measures won't stop them. Also tonight, cancer envy. I wish I

:00:45.:00:52.

had testicular cancer. I wish I had breast cancer. Noel Hunter, whose

:00:53.:00:59.

daughter died of cancer, takes issue with the charity who dreamt up the

:01:00.:01:10.

campaign. Good evening, David Cameron has

:01:11.:01:13.

clearly decided that the time has come for him to try to take the

:01:14.:01:16.

debate over Scotland's independence by the throat. Newsnight has learned

:01:17.:01:19.

that tomorrow the Prime Minister will use the site of the London

:01:20.:01:24.

Olympics to rally the whole of the UK to the cause of the union.

:01:25.:01:27.

Envoking triumphs there and equating them with the success of the UK.

:01:28.:01:33.

Joined from Glasgow. What do we know about the speech? First where it is

:01:34.:01:37.

going to take place, as you say he will wrap himself, not only in the

:01:38.:01:41.

colours of the Union Flag, the red, white and blue, but also try to wrap

:01:42.:01:45.

himself in the gloryies of that very British summer of 2012, when

:01:46.:01:49.

athletes from all four of the home nation competed together as Team GB,

:01:50.:01:54.

he will evoke that spirit very positively, he will say for me the

:01:55.:01:58.

best thing about the Olympics was not the winning but the red white

:01:59.:02:01.

and blue, everybody cheering as one team for GB. It is that team he

:02:02.:02:06.

wants to talk about the United Kingdom. He will also and clearly

:02:07.:02:14.

try to outline an alternative patriotism for the Scots, an British

:02:15.:02:20.

patriotism. He's addressing people outside Scotland, voters who don't

:02:21.:02:24.

have a vote in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, that although they

:02:25.:02:27.

don't have a vote they can have a say. They can try to persuade

:02:28.:02:31.

friends in Scotland of the vert its of staying in the union. He is

:02:32.:02:35.

saying from us to the people of Scotland let the message be this, we

:02:36.:02:40.

want them to stay. He's calling on the people of Northern Ireland and

:02:41.:02:44.

England to intervene in the debate and showing they care. Why now?

:02:45.:02:51.

There is a growing sense that Whitehall are pretty rattled by the

:02:52.:02:55.

way they are going. The polls show the gap between yes and no to

:02:56.:02:58.

independence is narrowing. One poll a couple of weeks ago showed that

:02:59.:03:02.

the support for yes to independence had increased by five points since

:03:03.:03:06.

September. Support for no had dropped five points since September.

:03:07.:03:10.

That makes the gap, according to that poll only 7%. That gap is. In

:03:11.:03:17.

the euro election, coming in May, it looks like UKIP will do well in

:03:18.:03:22.

England, according to the same poll, the SNP are set to take 42% and UKIP

:03:23.:03:28.

in Scotland 7%. That will enable the nationalists to argue who are the

:03:29.:03:31.

real isolationists in this debate. Who are the real seperatists? Not

:03:32.:03:36.

us. There is a accepts here that some people, some undecided voters

:03:37.:03:41.

are on some kind of journey from no to yes. And there is emerge anything

:03:42.:03:44.

Scotland a block of people who are not nationalists, who don't like

:03:45.:03:48.

nationalism and never supported Alex Salmond, but nonetheless will vote

:03:49.:03:52.

yes. That is very concerning in Whitehall. How do you think the

:03:53.:03:55.

tenor of this speech will go down in Scotland and the rest of the UK? In

:03:56.:03:59.

the rest of the UK it has been pretty hard to engage the rest of

:04:00.:04:03.

the UK in the debate. Traditionally most people outside Scotland have

:04:04.:04:07.

seen this as a matter traditionally for the Scots alone. Except where it

:04:08.:04:10.

impacts on people outside of Scotland. But in Scotland the risks

:04:11.:04:15.

are very clear. David Cameron has stayed out of it until now, because

:04:16.:04:20.

he knows a certain kind of stridant, Epping illusion, Conservative voice

:04:21.:04:23.

has a very negative effect in Scotland. Remember of the 59

:04:24.:04:26.

Westminster MPs only one is a Conservative. And that the coalition

:04:27.:04:35.

that governs the UK at the moment is consisting of two parties that came

:04:36.:04:40.

third and fourth in Scotland. There is a legitimacy question. And David

:04:41.:04:45.

Cameron has stayed out of it. He knows he risks playing into the

:04:46.:04:48.

hands of nationalists and being called a coward for failing to

:04:49.:04:53.

answer Alex Salmond's call to debate directly with the Scottish minister.

:04:54.:04:56.

We will expect a robust response from the nationalists tomorrow

:04:57.:05:01.

morning. What is this saying about the Better Together Scotland

:05:02.:05:06.

campaign at the moment? Even the supporters of the Better Together

:05:07.:05:10.

campaign say it sounds very negative and picking apart Alex Salmond's

:05:11.:05:13.

plans for independence, they have sounded as if they have nothing

:05:14.:05:16.

positive to offer. Whatever the merits of their case, the overall

:05:17.:05:20.

impression is the telling of the Scottish people you are not up to

:05:21.:05:23.

it, you can't do it, get back in your box. There is some polling

:05:24.:05:27.

evidence that is backfiring. Many people say it is turned into a

:05:28.:05:31.

battle between hope on the yes side and fear on the no side. There is

:05:32.:05:35.

also a question mark over whether Darling is the right man now to lead

:05:36.:05:39.

this campaign. He's highly respected, highly regarded across

:05:40.:05:45.

the political spectrum, are his talents really geared towards

:05:46.:05:49.

enthusing people in Scotland about the positive British patriotism. It

:05:50.:05:53.

is that, I think, that gap that David Cameron is trying to close

:05:54.:06:00.

with the speech tomorrow. The prison sentence handed to the policeman who

:06:01.:06:06.

attempted to stitch ups former Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell has rocked the

:06:07.:06:11.

police. It comes as at a time when the public trust in them has been

:06:12.:06:16.

damaged. Emily Maitlis learns of radical plans to beef up the police

:06:17.:06:21.

Complaints Comissioning and doubling the number of detectives that keep

:06:22.:06:24.

an Ian the police over the next few years. Police constable Keith

:06:25.:06:32.

Wallis, jailed today for 12 months for his part in bringing down the

:06:33.:06:37.

former Conservative Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell. Wallis originally

:06:38.:06:41.

claimed he witnessed the Mitchell incident at the Downing Street

:06:42.:06:45.

gates. It turned out he was lying. The Wallis case may be a one-off, a

:06:46.:06:50.

single officer gone rogue, yet it comes at a time when public trust in

:06:51.:06:54.

the police has been badly damaged. By the inquiry into the police

:06:55.:06:58.

shooting of Mark Duggan, the botched examination of the death of Ian

:06:59.:07:03.

Tomlinson. The allegations that the police tried to smear the family of

:07:04.:07:07.

Stephen Lawrence after his death, and by Hillsborough of course.

:07:08.:07:11.

Although these incidents are few and far between, it is the drip feed,

:07:12.:07:16.

case after case badly handled that has convinced the Home Office of the

:07:17.:07:19.

need for change. Not just to the police themselves, but of the

:07:20.:07:24.

watchdog that polices them. The Independent Police Complaints

:07:25.:07:26.

Commisssion. Part of the problem is the IPCC has been seen as too close

:07:27.:07:31.

to the very officers it is meant to be investigating, something that has

:07:32.:07:34.

done little to reassure the public of its independence. The body is

:07:35.:07:38.

perceived to be staffed by, as one observer put it, former officers who

:07:39.:07:42.

have been put out to grass. Or perhaps not to grass, would be

:07:43.:07:47.

rather more accurate. I am concerned that over a third of the officers

:07:48.:07:52.

are police officers themselves. I don't know where the judicial

:07:53.:07:56.

investigatory legal skills are in the body. And I think that's

:07:57.:08:01.

probably why it is not taken seriously by the public when they

:08:02.:08:05.

really are concerned that something has gone wrong. But also

:08:06.:08:08.

increasingly it seems by the police themselves. Over the coming months,

:08:09.:08:13.

the commission will begin a radical overhaul. Up to 300 new

:08:14.:08:16.

investigators will be brought in over three years, more than doubling

:08:17.:08:20.

their current number. And to pay for all of this the IPCC will have its

:08:21.:08:27.

budget increased by almost 50%. The IPCC budget is ?33 million. Of that

:08:28.:08:33.

?13 million spent on investigations and case work. I understand ?18

:08:34.:08:39.

million additional money will be made available to the IPCC. Top

:08:40.:08:44.

sliced from across the other forces. The Home Office also says it is open

:08:45.:08:49.

to demands from the IPCC, for more powers. What in fect we have to have

:08:50.:08:55.

with the IPCC is a separate police force that has all of the powers

:08:56.:09:09.

over the police that the police have overthat has all of the powers over

:09:10.:09:12.

the police that the police have over us, including the power to sup

:09:13.:09:14.

peania witnesses and access to documents. We need a set of judicial

:09:15.:09:18.

untouchables. This year the commission will take control of all

:09:19.:09:22.

cases deemed serious and sensitive. Last year out of more than 2,000

:09:23.:09:26.

cases that came to its door, only 120 were handled in-house. The rest

:09:27.:09:31.

were thrown back to the police forces themselves. From now on the

:09:32.:09:37.

IPCC will be expected to investigate three-times as many as it currently

:09:38.:09:40.

does. The difficulty is, there has to be a trade-off. If you have

:09:41.:09:46.

former police officers who are experienced and skilled

:09:47.:09:49.

investigators, they are more likely to be able to carry out complex

:09:50.:09:54.

investigations. If you bring in totally new people, with no

:09:55.:09:59.

experience, then they might not be able to get to the bottom of things.

:10:00.:10:01.

The IPCC has said its seems are: When everyone is calling for the

:10:02.:10:20.

need to reform, the Government has been happy to show its court the

:10:21.:10:23.

public mood. Indeed, to put the money where its collective mouth is.

:10:24.:10:27.

The bigger question, perhaps, is whether the public buy it.

:10:28.:10:35.

Tomorrow's Opening Ceremony in Sochi will be designed to dazzle all nay

:10:36.:10:44.

sayers. It won't be enough to hide the country's resurgent antigay

:10:45.:10:50.

laws, today a letter was signed by many authors or the looming specter

:10:51.:10:54.

of terrorism. Following a warning by the US Department of Homeland

:10:55.:10:57.

Security of a credible threat that terrorists may try to smuggle

:10:58.:11:02.

explosives into the country in toothpaste tube, various journalists

:11:03.:11:07.

reported they cleared airport security with all sorts of lotions

:11:08.:11:12.

and tubes in their hand luggage. Tonight we have heard from the group

:11:13.:11:15.

that has threatened to attack the Sochi games. Sochi is primed and

:11:16.:11:24.

ready, with brand spanking new state of the arts sports facilities. It is

:11:25.:11:33.

the most expensive Olympics ever. It is all happening just a few hundred

:11:34.:11:37.

miles away from Europe's bloodiest insurgency. Vladimir Putin isn't

:11:38.:11:46.

spending upwards of ?30 billion just to show some athletes a good time.

:11:47.:11:56.

This is about Russian pride. But meanwhile, scenes like these play

:11:57.:12:00.

themselves out daily in Dagestan and elsewhere in southern Russia.

:12:01.:12:05.

Security forces are battling Islamist militants. For Putin these

:12:06.:12:14.

games are about projecting an image of a Russia on the rise. But it is

:12:15.:12:17.

not only the Russian Government that wants to take advantage of the

:12:18.:12:21.

international spotlight on Sochi of the In a video posted on the

:12:22.:12:31.

Internet last month, a group calling itself Villia Dagestan threatened to

:12:32.:12:36.

give a present to Mr Putin if Russia went ahead with the games. For the

:12:37.:12:40.

tourists visiting Sochi they continued there would be a present

:12:41.:12:44.

too. We contacted the group, they reiterated their threat, they made

:12:45.:12:48.

it clear their intended targets would go beyond Sochi. In December

:12:49.:12:54.

500 miles from Dagestan a suicide bomber blew himself up at the train

:12:55.:13:01.

session in Volgegrad, well within Russia proper. The following day

:13:02.:13:05.

another blast, on a trolley bus in the same city. Both attacks were

:13:06.:13:12.

claimed by the name group. In response a security cordon has been

:13:13.:13:18.

thrown up around Sochi. Around 40,000 police and soldiers have been

:13:19.:13:21.

deployed, unprecedented levels of security, say the authorities. The

:13:22.:13:28.

games are safe. TRANSLATION: All of our guests at the Olympics, all the

:13:29.:13:32.

sportsmen can be absolutely reassured, the Olympic Games will go

:13:33.:13:35.

ahead at the highest level, and with complete security. But some fear as

:13:36.:13:42.

the Opening Ceremony approaches Russia is vulnerable. The biggest

:13:43.:13:47.

problems is many troops are brought to Sochi from other regions. They

:13:48.:13:51.

are not very familiar with the ground. That's why I don't think

:13:52.:13:56.

they will be very useful to detect and identify possible suicide

:13:57.:14:01.

bombers. That is the one thing, also we need to remember that not only

:14:02.:14:08.

Sochi, but so other cities in central Russia are under threat. And

:14:09.:14:12.

that it's quite clear that for militants the timing is much more

:14:13.:14:19.

crucial than location. This man, top of Russia's list of most wanted

:14:20.:14:23.

terrorists last year urged his followers to do whatever it took to

:14:24.:14:27.

disrupt the games. Which he called "a Satanic dance on the bones of the

:14:28.:14:33.

ancestors of the people of the north caucuses". He was tapping into a

:14:34.:14:36.

deep seam of resentment that goes back more than 200 years, to the

:14:37.:14:42.

Tsarrist conquest of the caucuses in the 18th and 19th century. These

:14:43.:14:47.

winter Olympics are taking place 150 years after Russian forces expelled

:14:48.:14:53.

the population from the area around Sochi, killing those who resisted,

:14:54.:14:59.

burning villages to the ground. Russia's two post-Soviet wars in

:15:00.:15:03.

Chechnya are still raw in the memories of the people there, and

:15:04.:15:07.

the current conflict, centered around Dagestan, claimed more than

:15:08.:15:11.

500 lives last year. If you break it down that is what has been driving

:15:12.:15:15.

the fight for the last 200 years, is that the Russian response to any

:15:16.:15:20.

sign of rebellion from the people of the caucuses has always been an

:15:21.:15:24.

overwhelming force. They were destroying Chechen villages in the

:15:25.:15:29.

1780s and into the early 21st sent treatment the tactics remain

:15:30.:15:32.

identical and the response of individual people on a strictly

:15:33.:15:36.

human level is the same. To fightback and in the best way they k

:15:37.:15:40.

which is on a small scale level at small targets because the Russian

:15:41.:15:44.

army is too strong and they don't have a choice. Certainly a strong

:15:45.:15:48.

sense of historical grievance fuels this current conflict, but few in

:15:49.:15:53.

the north caucuses support the aims of the militants with their dream of

:15:54.:15:58.

an Islamic state on Russia's southern flank. We challenge the

:15:59.:16:01.

militants on this point, and asked them how they could justify killing

:16:02.:16:05.

innocent people in pursuit of their aims. They responded as

:16:06.:16:36.

The militants accuse the Russian security forces of kidnapping,

:16:37.:16:42.

beating, torturing and even killing innocent civilians in their on going

:16:43.:16:45.

campaign to pacify the north caucuses. Jo they have a pint but

:16:46.:16:51.

only telling half the story, they are doing exactly those things as

:16:52.:16:55.

well, there are no good guys in this particular tale. The response to,

:16:56.:16:58.

instead of inflicting your revenge on the people who have done this to

:16:59.:17:03.

you, but to inflict your revenge on innocent people in a station or

:17:04.:17:07.

theatre goers in Moscow or schoolchildren is obviously

:17:08.:17:10.

unspeakable. It is a cycle of brutality that no-one appears to be

:17:11.:17:16.

willing to stop. It is less than 24 hours to the Opening Ceremony, for

:17:17.:17:20.

two weeks Sochi will be at the centre of global attention. But

:17:21.:17:24.

Russia's forgotten war will continue just a few hundred miles distant

:17:25.:17:29.

from and I way from the world's days. Cancer is no respecter of

:17:30.:17:37.

colour, creed, age or income, but some cancers are more aggressive

:17:38.:17:43.

than others, some harder to treat, so far so uncontroversialal. Now a

:17:44.:17:49.

cancer charity, pancreatic action, has split cancer sufferers alike. It

:17:50.:17:54.

has kicked off a campaign which ranks different forms of the disease

:17:55.:17:58.

and employs pancreatic sufferers to say that other cancers, such as

:17:59.:18:04.

breast cancer and testicular cancer will be preferable to their's. Ask I

:18:05.:18:18.

wish I had testicular cancer. I wish I had breast cancer. Early diagnosis

:18:19.:18:24.

saves lives. If you have any of these symptoms see your doctor. Or

:18:25.:18:38.

go to the website. Joining me is a pancreatic survivor and Gloria

:18:39.:18:42.

Hunniford, the presenter who has set up the Caron Keating foundation in

:18:43.:18:46.

memory of her daughter who died of breast cancer in 2004. Gloria

:18:47.:18:50.

Hunniford, when you saw this advert at first, what did you make of it?

:18:51.:18:55.

Well, up front I would like to just establish that through our

:18:56.:18:58.

foundation we give grants all year round to all forms of cancer

:18:59.:19:03.

including pancreatic cancer. I'm not against raising funds or awareness

:19:04.:19:07.

for any kind of cancer. I have to tell you feel almost sick when I

:19:08.:19:11.

read the words "I wish I had breast cancer". I personally think this is

:19:12.:19:17.

a very insensitive commercial and very insensitive and misguided way

:19:18.:19:22.

of going about raising awareness and funds. I'm coming from a deeply

:19:23.:19:27.

personal point of view. I watched my daughter battle breast cancer for

:19:28.:19:32.

seven years and spreading to the bones, at no time would she have

:19:33.:19:35.

preferred another form, she didn't want it at all. Did you set out to

:19:36.:19:41.

be controversial? We set out to raise awareness for a disease that

:19:42.:19:45.

gets very little attention, and we did want to make sure that we got

:19:46.:19:51.

our messages heard. But do you, you would accept that you knew that

:19:52.:19:54.

would shock a lot of people, people who have cancer and otherwise? Yes,

:19:55.:20:01.

we thought it would spark debate. And I think if people look just at

:20:02.:20:08.

the the headline, "I wish I had breast cancer", if you take that in

:20:09.:20:12.

its entirety, then if you are only looking at that then that is

:20:13.:20:16.

shocking. It would be fair to say, Gloria Hunniford, that some cancers

:20:17.:20:20.

do attract more interest and funding. I'm thinking particularly

:20:21.:20:23.

of breast cancer with pink ribbon, the moon walk? That is not really

:20:24.:20:27.

the point, you see. Imagine you went into your doctor, heaven forbid it

:20:28.:20:31.

happens to you, you go into a doctor and say Kirsty I have to tell you

:20:32.:20:36.

I'm so glad you didn't get pancreatic cancer but you have

:20:37.:20:40.

breast cancer. In my opinion you cannot play one against the other.

:20:41.:20:43.

In fact I want to read out, I purposely took it out of the

:20:44.:20:47.

statement today, o of the major breast cancer charities said "We

:20:48.:20:52.

strongly dispute any message to suggest that one type of cancer is

:20:53.:20:56.

preferable to another". Where did that phrase come from? This is the

:20:57.:21:01.

thought of many patients with pancreatic cancer, they face a 3%,

:21:02.:21:08.

five-year survival rate. When I was diagnosed in 2007 I wished I had a

:21:09.:21:14.

cancer. I can't wish for cancer or wish it on anybody, but I wanted

:21:15.:21:17.

something that would give me a better chance of survival. I didn't

:21:18.:21:21.

know at that point I would get to be one of those 3%. I'm thrilled, it is

:21:22.:21:27.

fantastic you are one of the great survivors, but in my humble opinion,

:21:28.:21:31.

you have a new drug you advertised today. And I think that the purpose

:21:32.:21:36.

of any ad to raise funds or awareness of any cancer is surely to

:21:37.:21:40.

have a more positive message, instead of having, for me any way,

:21:41.:21:43.

instead of a negative phrase. And people read papers, "I wish I had

:21:44.:21:48.

breast cancer", it makes people's stomachs turn over. You would accept

:21:49.:21:53.

the funding for pancreatic cancer has changed radically, it has gone

:21:54.:22:00.

from ?1. 5 to ?5. 1 million. It is a huge step forward for you? It is

:22:01.:22:03.

baby steps. But you have a share of the pot that is ?521 million? The

:22:04.:22:08.

share of the pot that pancreatic gets in the site-specific area is

:22:09.:22:17.

less than 1%. When there is research into, for example, ovarian cancer,

:22:18.:22:20.

that informs breast Cancer Research and other cancers always inform

:22:21.:22:25.

other cancers. Do you accept that. Or because you feel that because

:22:26.:22:29.

pancreatic cancer is harder to detect, it can be very aggressive

:22:30.:22:33.

and in the way it doesn't attract the same interest as other cancers?

:22:34.:22:37.

It doesn't, it is the lack of awareness. A lot of people in the

:22:38.:22:41.

public actually perceive that pancreatic cancer has had some of

:22:42.:22:45.

the same advances as many other cancers, I even had it said to me

:22:46.:22:50.

that they have made great strides and things have improved. And you

:22:51.:22:53.

know, they can do so much these days. Well, they can't with

:22:54.:22:58.

pancreatic cancer, the only way to have a curative option is to be

:22:59.:23:04.

diagnosed in time for surgery, which was lucky to do so. The problem with

:23:05.:23:10.

pancreatic cancer is most people don't understand enough about it. We

:23:11.:23:13.

don't know enough about the disease. Is that fair to say? It is to a

:23:14.:23:17.

point. Of course it is true, and many, many cancers want to raise

:23:18.:23:22.

awareness and funds. I just feel, of course I come from a personal point

:23:23.:23:26.

of view, I STRECHLTS I feel a shock -- stress, I feel a shock tactic

:23:27.:23:31.

isn't the most correct and sensible way to go about it. Do you stand by

:23:32.:23:37.

it? I do, because the messages come from patients. That is coming from

:23:38.:23:41.

patients. Do you think that's said by patients as said as a time of

:23:42.:23:47.

great anguish and not when there would be other circumstances and it

:23:48.:23:51.

is a natural reaction, it was your a reaction when you were diagnosed,

:23:52.:23:54.

but to move forward there has to be a more positive response. Agreed,

:23:55.:23:59.

what we need to do is raise awareness of the symptoms. Can I

:24:00.:24:03.

just ask, is there an issue about too many small individual different,

:24:04.:24:07.

understandable, cancer charities? You would probably have a point,

:24:08.:24:12.

could I just say when you talk about you know shock tactics and wanting

:24:13.:24:17.

and standing by, raising money and awareness for this, it is at a cost,

:24:18.:24:21.

for example a very good friend of mine is having a double mastectomy

:24:22.:24:25.

tomorrow morning, try showing her this ad and try to let her have

:24:26.:24:32.

sympathy for another cancer. Thank you very much. Can you love the art

:24:33.:24:36.

but abhor the artist, David Aaronovitch stepped right into the

:24:37.:24:40.

controversy over Woody Allen's alleged paedophilia and asked should

:24:41.:24:44.

it colour our view of his movies. In short the answer was no, he still

:24:45.:24:49.

loves Annie Hall and Hannah and her Sisters. He sets a myriad of

:24:50.:24:58.

example, Eric Gill, the music of The Lost Prophets profit. . First we

:24:59.:25:10.

have this. We turn to the arts to provoke and arouse us, to stir our

:25:11.:25:15.

emotions. But are some artists beyond the pale because of what they

:25:16.:25:20.

have been accused of doing, or the views they espouse? They rolled out

:25:21.:25:29.

the welcome mat at the Golden Globes last month for Woody Allen's latest

:25:30.:25:33.

film. Among the many stars at the event, no sign of the director

:25:34.:25:37.

himself, who won a Lifetime Achievement Award. But his latest

:25:38.:25:44.

film, Blue Jasmine was represented by Kate Blackpool Cate Blanchett,

:25:45.:25:54.

who was named best actress. The prize-giving season has been

:25:55.:25:59.

overshadowed by a letter of Woody Allen's adopted daughter. She has

:26:00.:26:01.

accused him of attacks her at seven. Allen called her allegations

:26:02.:26:22.

"disgraceful and untrue" he pointed out that he has never been charged

:26:23.:26:26.

over her claims. But some say they could sway members of the academy.

:26:27.:26:33.

Awards' panels are made up of human beings full of foibles, and all of

:26:34.:26:39.

us on prize committees know how arbitary and idiosyncratic the

:26:40.:26:44.

process is. I wouldn't be surprised if it swayed people. These are PR

:26:45.:26:48.

enterprises and people wouldn't want the bad PR. But novelist Lionel

:26:49.:26:58.

Schriver that the allegations have no bearing on her view of his film.

:26:59.:27:03.

I won't lose sleep over what happened, because it is not

:27:04.:27:06.

ultimately any of my business. It is not an artistic matter. It is not

:27:07.:27:11.

going to stop me from going to see his films. The unreliable business

:27:12.:27:20.

of reading across from an artist's life from his work is nothing new.

:27:21.:27:27.

Some music lovers have agonised over the composer Wagner, how to

:27:28.:27:32.

reconcile his genius with his avowed anti-semitism. I don't think there

:27:33.:27:38.

is an algorithm which allows us to settle all these case, the cases are

:27:39.:27:42.

different. The reason Wagner is different, he attempted an

:27:43.:27:46.

intellectual articulation and defence of anti-semitism. There is,

:27:47.:27:51.

of course, a hugely controversial question as to whether that

:27:52.:27:55.

anti-semitism then as it were seeps into the music. Prospe rocks o and

:27:56.:28:05.

Aerial by Eric Gill can be seen on the building where this programme is

:28:06.:28:18.

transmitted, he committed paedophilia and enjoyed himself with

:28:19.:28:25.

the family pet. What I find curious is that we nevertheless expect

:28:26.:28:31.

artists to do so, accept these unimpeachable lies. There is this

:28:32.:28:36.

acceptance of the creator, almost a quasi-supernatural being in some

:28:37.:28:41.

ways. I enjoy watching films or reading books, as objects completely

:28:42.:28:47.

apart from their creators. I'm probably unusual in this respect.

:28:48.:28:54.

But I suffer from aposity of curiosity about the creators, I

:28:55.:29:01.

don't really want to know about them. Let as discuss that now with

:29:02.:29:08.

the novelist and broadcaster Kazeem Adeleke. Do you agree there is an

:29:09.:29:16.

algorithm? Yes, I think sometimes, I think what tends to happen is that

:29:17.:29:21.

for an artist if they are dealing, as most artists do, with looking at

:29:22.:29:27.

the human condition with humanity, of what their humanity and points of

:29:28.:29:31.

view and their foibles are, they will some how appear in the work,

:29:32.:29:36.

just to give you a little example, you know, there is controversy over

:29:37.:29:40.

Nye Paul and whether he should have got the Nobel Prize or not. It is

:29:41.:29:44.

not that they are allegations that he may be a racist or he doesn't

:29:45.:29:48.

like black cultures, it is not that he says in his work. It is not that

:29:49.:29:52.

there is a problem of what he might say in his work with black cultures.

:29:53.:29:57.

What tends to happen is the racism seeps into the area. For example he

:29:58.:30:01.

says he does have great regard for black duals, then -- cultures, then

:30:02.:30:06.

we learn in his buy could go fee he doesn't like music. -- biography, he

:30:07.:30:11.

doesn't like music. The take on his biography is he has no musical

:30:12.:30:15.

response. Can that be a personal read organise is it societial

:30:16.:30:20.

depending on the circumstance? You could argue, it has been argued by

:30:21.:30:25.

Wagner for instance, that you can, I mean he did this famous work abo

:30:26.:30:30.

Judaism in music, which is a condemnation of the role of the Jew

:30:31.:30:35.

in society, and so on. That is very, which in itself is kind of clearly a

:30:36.:30:39.

precursor to what subsequently happens. What people then say about

:30:40.:30:44.

the music is he see these character, evil characters, you see in them

:30:45.:30:53.

proto-type calm Jewish character -- prototypical Jewish characters,

:30:54.:30:58.

which it is hard to separate from the anti-semitism. Others find it

:30:59.:31:02.

easy to separate. By and large you do find it difficult? I think by and

:31:03.:31:06.

large we have to. The origin of this discussion in my mind was an article

:31:07.:31:11.

by the New York Times columnist Nicholas Christophe, two or three

:31:12.:31:15.

years ago where he actually gave space to Dylan Farrow to say her

:31:16.:31:23.

accusation, he asked why are we honouring this man when he's not

:31:24.:31:27.

unimpeachably honourable. In other words, if there was any doubt about

:31:28.:31:31.

whether or not he personally was honourable, then we shouldn't honour

:31:32.:31:39.

the art. That is innocent until proven guilty? No it is simply you

:31:40.:31:43.

should read across the art. You should taken a attitude to the art

:31:44.:31:46.

based on what you think he might have done or did do personally. I

:31:47.:31:50.

don't think that is fair necessarily, I think that some how

:31:51.:31:55.

an artist's sensibility and attitudes do often come across in

:31:56.:31:59.

the work. But not often in straight forward ways. So it would be very

:32:00.:32:07.

dangerous to go from an allegation to somebody's private life to

:32:08.:32:11.

refusing them an artistic prize. Is there a cosy consensus around art,

:32:12.:32:18.

there is allegations about Lucien Freud and so forth. People choosing

:32:19.:32:21.

to separate things and for some people it is more different. I was

:32:22.:32:28.

thinking of are yous -- Bertram Russell and he was not very nice.

:32:29.:32:35.

Does that make him a philosopher. People don't remember it, if

:32:36.:32:40.

Caravaggio did the things people say he did what would happen. This is a

:32:41.:32:46.

calibration, we have had Ian Watkins, the lead singer of the The

:32:47.:32:50.

Lost Prophets, who has done the most terrible things, as a consequence

:32:51.:32:54.

the music won't be played on the radio and disappeared from HMV. But

:32:55.:33:03.

you can find it on Apple I tunes, the artwork wasn't enough to overlay

:33:04.:33:09.

the association. Was it so contemporary and shocking that it

:33:10.:33:15.

would ever outweigh it? If it was a beatle? Interesting question? At the

:33:16.:33:20.

moment in American music there is a story around R Kelly, massive star.

:33:21.:33:24.

They have there have been on going issues around him and his alleged

:33:25.:33:27.

allegations about him and his relationships with under-age or

:33:28.:33:31.

borderline aged people. Particularly in the Chicago area he grew up in.

:33:32.:33:35.

What is happening now is he's trying to relaunch his career and get back

:33:36.:33:40.

in the spotlight. Some of these allegations have esurfaced. What is

:33:41.:33:45.

notable it doesn't seem to affect his cells. It is also noticeable

:33:46.:33:49.

that some of the people who are in his target age group. It doesn't

:33:50.:33:56.

affect their wish to buy his songs. It is very difficult, I wonder if

:33:57.:33:59.

one of the problems we have in the west is there is a quick separation

:34:00.:34:02.

from artists and other people in the west. In other countries, in African

:34:03.:34:06.

countries the artist is seen more as somebody who is part of the wider

:34:07.:34:10.

community and his work, a lot of his work, there is a level of social

:34:11.:34:17.

work, he leads the masquerades and the social celebrations. It is in

:34:18.:34:21.

the west where we have the high distinction, maybe we get into

:34:22.:34:27.

trouble because of it. The astrophysicist, Dame Jocelyn Bell

:34:28.:34:31.

Burnett, who discovered pulsars, has been elected the first female

:34:32.:34:34.

President of the Royal Society in Edinburgh. The first one was founded

:34:35.:34:39.

in 1873. It is ironic her appointment coincides with a

:34:40.:34:42.

parliamentary report that aments just how bad this country is doing

:34:43.:34:47.

in attracting women into the sciences and engineering

:34:48.:34:51.

professions. 17% of so called STEM professors are women. The report

:34:52.:34:56.

says that at school there is a commendable emphasis on inspiring

:34:57.:34:59.

young girls to do science. It is a waste of effort if women are

:35:00.:35:03.

disadvantaged in scientific careers compared to men. Rosalind Franklin

:35:04.:35:11.

is one of the most significant but overlooked female scientists,

:35:12.:35:14.

playing a crucial role in discovering DNA, but never the

:35:15.:35:18.

proper credit for her work. Today's report acknowledges things have

:35:19.:35:25.

moved on since her day. Franklin is now a role model. American science

:35:26.:35:30.

students created this rap song in her honour, to inspire more women to

:35:31.:35:34.

get into science. # Recognise Rosalind Franklin Here

:35:35.:35:41.

in the UK more girls are studying scien subjects in school and

:35:42.:35:44.

university. But at higher levels in the field there are fewer women than

:35:45.:35:49.

men. Especially in acedemia. Out of all the jobs in science, technology,

:35:50.:35:54.

engineering and maths. Only 13% are held by women. According to today's

:35:55.:35:59.

report, short-term contracts for those finishing their PhDs lead many

:36:00.:36:04.

younger women to leave the field, as they lack the job stability they

:36:05.:36:08.

need to start a family. That's the case with this scientist, who will

:36:09.:36:13.

be hanging up her lab coat in a few weeks. As I'm 30, it is coming to

:36:14.:36:17.

the fore, I would like to start a family and have a mortgage. And the

:36:18.:36:20.

nature of the work is shored contracts and long hours. And I'm

:36:21.:36:25.

not sure how compatible that is with what I want for my personal life.

:36:26.:36:29.

Should we worry that there aren't equal number of male and female

:36:30.:36:33.

scientists, today's report says yes, not only because they can bring

:36:34.:36:39.

fresh perspectives but because the economy needs more. Anna runs a

:36:40.:36:43.

network reporting women in science and engineering, she agrees? Aside

:36:44.:36:48.

from the fact that it is enically a good thing to be giving everybody

:36:49.:36:52.

equal opportunity, it is really about releasing potential. We know

:36:53.:36:59.

that the UK economy depends on higher numbers of science and

:37:00.:37:03.

engineering graduates, we are underusing half our population. But

:37:04.:37:06.

funding for schemes promoting diversity in the sector have been

:37:07.:37:14.

cut drastically. The authors of today's report are alling for

:37:15.:37:17.

diversity training and recruitment and managers, and more long-term

:37:18.:37:20.

contracts to try to attract more women into stem industries. Joining

:37:21.:37:29.

me to discuss is the science minister and head of engineering at

:37:30.:37:34.

Cambridge, and an academic and TV presenter. This is pretty

:37:35.:37:38.

depressing? It is indefensible, we do need to do better. As the report

:37:39.:37:44.

said, it is a waste of talent. Do you think you didn't fight your

:37:45.:37:47.

corner well enough when it came to the funding. It is shocking isn't

:37:48.:37:53.

it. Improving diversity in stem, this spending was halved in the 2010

:37:54.:38:00.

Spending Review. UK resource centre for womens science and technology in

:38:01.:38:05.

2012 had its funding cut. What we have We have put more effort in

:38:06.:38:10.

achieving diversity through the mainstream provision. Through, for

:38:11.:38:16.

example, for the first time, saying that ?200 million teaching capital

:38:17.:38:19.

is going for the universities. When they bid for it they have to show

:38:20.:38:24.

what they are doing to encourage diversity, particularly women. We

:38:25.:38:27.

are putting more effort in than ever before. But there is more needs to

:38:28.:38:32.

be done. As under s or factity? There is also an issue about the

:38:33.:38:38.

post graduate career structure. There isn't really one? There are

:38:39.:38:42.

men and women affected by these short-term contracts which, is why

:38:43.:38:49.

again we have got an ask for better careers advice and support at the

:38:50.:38:53.

start of people's very search careers than they have received. It

:38:54.:38:57.

is partly the university's fault for not getting their act together and

:38:58.:39:01.

attracting women properly? We have put a lot of effort into attracting

:39:02.:39:07.

women. But still not enough. Undergraduate level in engineering,

:39:08.:39:11.

that is one of the hardiest areas to actually get our message across. The

:39:12.:39:16.

country needs engineerses are great jobs in engineering. At

:39:17.:39:20.

undergraduate level in my department we have about 23% women. Nationally

:39:21.:39:30.

it is only 14%. Why are you failing to attract women into engineering,

:39:31.:39:34.

engineering is hugely exciting, you can travel the world with fantastic

:39:35.:39:38.

contracts, you would think to build bridges it may take three years to

:39:39.:39:42.

build, all that kind of stuff is fulfilling. I don't know, quite

:39:43.:39:51.

often young girls in school don't know what exciting careers there are

:39:52.:39:55.

in engineering. Or the breadth that engineering covers. I don't think we

:39:56.:40:01.

do a good job of making that communication in this country. What

:40:02.:40:05.

do you think? I think Anne is exactly right, some of it is about

:40:06.:40:08.

good careers advice in school, some of it is breaking down gender

:40:09.:40:11.

stereotypes, it is very clear, we know girls are capable of doing

:40:12.:40:15.

these subjects but they are not doing them through to A-levels. Only

:40:16.:40:20.

one in five at A-level physics is fee Tiel. Is there a bias in the

:40:21.:40:26.

culture? It starts very early. One of the recommendations in the report

:40:27.:40:31.

is we need to tackle the gender stereotypes extremely early, going

:40:32.:40:35.

back to primary school. Absolutely, outreach, we start with the primary

:40:36.:40:40.

school kids and get them in and do something exciting, build solar

:40:41.:40:44.

cars. How can you change the culture? Would there have to be a

:40:45.:40:48.

radical change of primary school, not only in the contracts but in the

:40:49.:40:53.

general career prosession. I think there is one specific point, it is

:40:54.:40:59.

the GCSE to A-level. Only water of the girls who get an A* in GCSE

:41:00.:41:06.

physics go on to A-level physics. That is a tendency to switch to

:41:07.:41:13.

medicine as an aspiration and drop the physics and go down the life

:41:14.:41:19.

sciences. We need to have a wider range of disciplines. Why don't

:41:20.:41:28.

they? One of the things that we find is that it is actually not enough to

:41:29.:41:32.

get the seven and eight-year-olds enthused about engineering, it is

:41:33.:41:36.

good to get parents in as well. When we have outreach activities, if we

:41:37.:41:40.

have one or both of the parents and a couple of kids building something,

:41:41.:41:44.

they all get to share the excitement and realise what the width of

:41:45.:41:48.

engineering is about. This isn't simply about redressing all the

:41:49.:41:54.

gender problems, it is about addressing the issue of having

:41:55.:41:57.

enough physicists and chemists and the lot. It was very much retention

:41:58.:42:08.

and we are seeing women dropping out of acedemia, and very few becoming

:42:09.:42:13.

professors. Going back to the funding cuts, UK RC the resource

:42:14.:42:17.

centre for women in Skypes was one of the few areas where there were

:42:18.:42:22.

resources to look after women in their careerses and help them to

:42:23.:42:26.

progress and retain women. That was identified in the report as being is

:42:27.:42:33.

something that quite a few bodies didn't know. Alice is saying the

:42:34.:42:43.

resource centre is hugely successful? When I see what we are

:42:44.:42:48.

doing with our stem ambassadors and setting conditions for the receipt

:42:49.:42:51.

of capital funding in way it never happened before. I think we are

:42:52.:42:56.

across the main treatment of rescreamed and years advice, trying

:42:57.:43:00.

to offer more encouragement. What about the portrayal of science in

:43:01.:43:05.

the media, do you think there is enough done in popular science

:43:06.:43:09.

programme, dramatic portrayals as women as scientists. The BBC does

:43:10.:43:13.

very well. You would have to say that. We have many women who are

:43:14.:43:20.

good and strong role models. Going back, the girls choosing to A-level

:43:21.:43:25.

of physics will look in the skills whether or not there are girls. We

:43:26.:43:28.

know in half of comprehensive schools there are no girls studying

:43:29.:43:34.

A-level physics. Putting more on television? In other areas? Think it

:43:35.:43:38.

is really important there are role models, that is another thing that

:43:39.:43:41.

came out of the report as well. It is incredibly important for women to

:43:42.:43:47.

be able to look ahead to what they are going to study and careers and

:43:48.:43:50.

see there are women already. There it is very difficult because at the

:43:51.:43:53.

moment only 17% of science professors are women. That is true,

:43:54.:43:58.

when you go to a science festival, there is a big one next month, you

:43:59.:44:02.

will see large numbers of school chirp, and it is probably more girls

:44:03.:44:07.

than boys going on. They identified the role models and the STEM

:44:08.:44:11.

ambassadors. All science fair ambassadors should be women? Half of

:44:12.:44:16.

them are, given the environment we are operating in is a great

:44:17.:44:20.

achievement and we will do more. The other problem is careers, we have

:44:21.:44:28.

tried to shoe horn people. There was no recognition for maternity, we

:44:29.:44:31.

have changed that. Thank you very much. The front pages now:

:44:32.:45:18.

That's it for tonight, I'm back tomorrow. We will leave you with the

:45:19.:45:24.

new smartphone video game keeping the world. Flappy Bird, incredibly

:45:25.:45:29.

addictive and insanely difficult to play for more than five seconds

:45:30.:45:31.

apparently. A wet night where the rain isn't

:45:32.:46:07.

needed it should get out of the way fairly smartly I think tomorrow.

:46:08.:46:11.

Pretty quiet across much of Scotland and Northern Ireland. With

:46:12.:46:15.

temperatures dipping low enough perhaps for a touch of ice

:46:16.:46:16.

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