05/02/2014 Newsnight


05/02/2014

With Jeremy Paxman. A UN report into child abuse and the Vatican, coding being taught in schools, banning strikes and Michael Vaughan on Kevin Pieterson.


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Transcript


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The Vatican systematically turned a blind eye to the abuse of thousands

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of children by priests. The claim comes not from some fringe

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organisation or even victims of abuse. It comes from the United

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Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child. New era or no new era,

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this unprecedented attack has left the church aggrieved and angry. Does

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the UN speak for natural justice and is the Channel Tunnel capable of

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reform? Can you read the new Latin or is the

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plan to teach computer code about as practicable as compulsory ancient

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Greek. As strike action allows London's buses to offer the kind of

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claustrophobic experience normally only reserved for tube passengers,

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can there really be Conservative plans to ban strikes. So today's

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strike would have been unlawful. And there would have been a judge

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deciding between TFL and London over the job cuts. That's right, there

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would not be a strike. We will ask the former England cricket captain,

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Michael Vaughan, why on earth the game's bosses have sacked our best

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batsman. There has never been a report like it. There is the target,

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for one thing, the Vatican, vet seat of power in the Catholic Church.

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There is the accuser for another, an arm of the United Nations and the

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language for one more. It is blistering. The UN committee for the

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rights of the child, accuses of Catholic Church of adopting policies

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which allowed priests to abuse thousands of children. It is

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scathing about the church's behaviour. In a moment I will be

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talking to a press spokesman for the Vatican and an abuse survivor.

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First we have this report. Pope Francis may be an energetic and

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reforming new presence, but he henner incompetents -- inherits an

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old problem. Today the scandal that so tarnished Pope Benedict has not

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gone away. The report expressed "deepest concern" of the involvement

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of Catholic clerics in the abuse of tens and thousands of children

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worldwide. It called for the removal of Clergy that are known child

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abusers. It wants the Vaticans to open their files on Clergy that

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concealed their crimes. It condemned the transfer of child abusers to

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other parishes. The report's author said the church remained in breach

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of the UN Convention on Child protection. They are in breach of

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the convention, because they haven't done all the things they should have

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done. These are not only recommendations of best practice,

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some of them are real violations of the convention when you don't follow

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up and protect children when you have the possibility to do so. We

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would consider it a violation for future if they don't follow up on

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our recommendations. The scandal has had a devastating effect on the

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reputation of the church and much of the developed world. Even in Italy,

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congregations of ageing, and the church recruits priests from the

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developing world, where the faith is growing. Critics say the church has

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been more concerned with protecting its own reputation than with

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protecting the children in its care. I think the Catholic Church in the

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UK, certainly in England and Wales, has taken huge steps forward, and it

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is held up as a good example of child protection procedures and

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policies. But worldwide, the United Nations has said that children,

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thousands of children have been abused and many are still at risk, I

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think that is very significant. Having said that I do place some

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faith in Pope Francis, because he has said that child protection is

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the most important thing. The church is growing fast in Africa and south

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and central America, where local Clergy are held in high public

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veneration. Compared to Europe and North America, clerical child abuse

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is seldom even acknowledged here. That doesn't mean it is not

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happening. One abuse survivor told Newsnight last year that he had been

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abused in the very place he thought he was safest. TRANSLATION: In the

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house of God, in a church, in a church that didn't pay attention to

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what was being done to me. What other priests were doing to other

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children. It is complicated really. As a child well you think the church

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is there to look after children, not in my case. No-one stopped what was

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going on. The UN report has no legal standing, no power to effect change

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within these impervious walls. Pope Francis has promised to overhaul the

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notoriously secretive, defensive, Catholic hierarchy. Today's report

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is a reminder that there is much yet to be done. Well with us now here in

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the studio is one of the victims of that abuse. An abuse survivor a

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member of Snap, a network of those abused by priests. You were in

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Geneva today, what were your feelings about the report when it

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was published? It was very validating because we were very

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surprised that there was such a strong report. Because basically the

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United Nations has ratified what we the victims have been saying for

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decades, that there is a need for more transparency and the end of

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impunity, that child abuse is prosecuted, even if it is committed

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by priests. And also that there is a need for a culture of

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accountability. The bishops who protect child abusers have to be

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fired. I don't want to go into the details of your space, it happened

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in Spain. This pattern that the report refers to, where priests are

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moved from parish to parish and even country to country sometimes, rather

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than being brought to justice, is that something observably true in

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your experience? It was very interesting because there was a

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diverse group of survivors in Geneva. We were from different

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countries, different ages and the common experience was that when the

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Vatican have said they were changed and doing things in a different way,

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the feeling that we all had was that didn't happen in my case, they

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weren't transparent, they protected the abuser and they didn't punish

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him. There was a disconnect between the propaganda the Vatican was

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saying and our reality. The Vatican says it is going to "take note" of

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this report, which is a polite way of saying, I suspect, we will

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register that it has happened and that is about it, were you impressed

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by their reaction? No, but I wasn't surprised either. They will be doing

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and saying the same thing for the last 30 years. I guess they believe

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that they are going fast, taking into account how slowly the Channel

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Tunnel changes. But in child protection, a few decades is a

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really huge amount of time. They should have changed by now. But on

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the other happened the Catholic Church does have a legitimate

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complaint against the UN, this UN report has been attacked for its

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position on gay marriage and abortion, neither of which are the

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issues of the UN committee? I have read the report, from my

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understanding it doesn't exactly say what you are implying, they mention

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abortion in a very specific case, in which a child was raped and was

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pregnant and the bishop, instead of excommunicating the rapist,

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excommunicated the parent and the little child had an abortion. What

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the United Nations was saying that perhaps in the case of child rape

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the church could decide to take a more benevolent approach. I'm going

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to interrupt you there, we are joined from Toronto by the English

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language assistant to the holy see press office. Father Thomas, what's

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your reaction to this report? First of all the central purpose of the

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report was to address the question of child abuse by the Clergy. And I

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stand firmly with that report in that we have a problem and we have

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tried to address that problem as best as possible, especially since

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the year 2001. As the Holy See said formally and diplomatically, we have

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taken note of this and will respond in a detailed form to the issues

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raised. That is a diplomatic response to the report. However I

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have certain questions about how this report was generated, and also

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some very serious Lacuna or absence in this report of key issues. For

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example there is a complete obvious ignorance of the history of the

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Catholic Church in addressing the situation, especially since 2001.

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Secondly, there is a very clear attempt in this report to have a new

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reading of history. The report and those who wrote it do not understand

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the structure of the Catholic Church. And the third area of the

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report is what other religious group would endure a religious

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intervention by the United Nations into doctrinal practice and the

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living out of one's faith. This would never be done with other

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religious groups. I think the group went over the top in inserting

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themselves, or asserting themselves in areas over which they have no

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competence whatsoever. The basic thrust of the report on this

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question of child abuse, you agree with, that the Catholic Church has

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shown itself more concerned with moving priests around and protecting

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the reputation of your institution than it has with the welfare of the

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child, you accept that do you? We have said very clearly, as the

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church, from the highest level, all the way down to the diocese level

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that there have been crimes committed and sins committed. Let me

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ask you one simple question then. Let me finish the sentence please.

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You are saying what you have done in the past, I'm asking you in the

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light of the report whether you will now make it an instruction to

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diocese that when an allegation of child abuse is reported, the

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relevant prosecuting authorities or the police are informed immediately.

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That is under way now. It has been under way. So the report shows it is

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not ware of the policies and procedures that have been

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implemented. Now let me say this too, the report presumes that Rome,

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the Vatican, the Holy See sits perched on the hill issuing dictates

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to all the branch offices. That is not the reality of the church. The

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power of the church in this area resides with the local bishop. It

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resides in local situations. We know in some situations more than others

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the serious crimes are known to everyone and we have addressed them.

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In the numerous diocese in the United States, Canada and Great

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Britain where you are, that the bishops have been extremely

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courageous in addressing this issue. We know that other people have not

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been so assiduous and courageous to do that. We have a victim of abuse

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by a Catholic priest in the studio, would you like to react to what

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Father Thomas has just said? I would want to ask him two questions. The

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first question is the first time there was a report regarding the

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problem with child abuse was in 1995 and it was done by Father Thomas

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Doyle, I was three years old, they had 13 years to sort it out and

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perhaps if they had done something I wouldn't have been abused when I was

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16. They only decided to report crimes to the authorities in 2011,

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25 years after the first warning sign was shown. To put those two

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things together, you are saying that the problem has been one that they

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have not seen this as urgent? 25 years. Please let me just say this,

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is your name Miguel? Yes. First of all I want to apologise to you for

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what you have endured. On behalf of the church and on behalf of me as a

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priest, it is disgusting, it is criminal, sinful it is evil, and you

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have bourne this and you have suffered from it and I am very, very

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sorry, that being said, we are doing our absolute best to make sure that

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no more young people will endure what you, Miguel have endured.

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Gentlemen thank you very much indeed. I'm sorry about the

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technical problems we have had with all of this thank you very much both

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of you. Every politician knows the National

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Health Service is a sacred cow when it comes to talk of the need for

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cuts in public spending. If politics is about choices it is one choice

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no-one wants to argue for. But if there is a surge in demand for

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health care because of growing population, what does it mean to say

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the budget is ring-fenced, not much according to the Institute for

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Fiscal Studies which warned today that by the end of this decade we

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will have gone through a cut in health spending per person of nine.

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11%. -- nine. 1%. What want to think

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about -- who wants to think about money when this is happening. You

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are carrying life in you and billions of other women have done

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the same thing. It is knowing how fundamental wishes like that are,

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from giving birth and staying alive into old age that led politicians to

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ring-fence the NHS budget. With each of the issues fulfilled there is a

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new human being with needs, and they will need healthcare for longer than

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before. From the roof of the Royal London Hospital, you can get an idea

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of how many extra people trusts like these have to serve. It is because

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of the surge in population, not budget cuts, that NHS budgets are

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getting squeezed. The population growth is down to two factor,

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immigration and people living longer. That means that even though

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budgets are ring-fenced they are spread across more people, and there

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is less money to spend per person. Today the Institute for Fiscal

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studios made it clear how flimsy thes fence of the NHS has become.

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Between 2010 and 2019 the population will have grown by 3. 5 million. We

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are in this tough position where NHS spending is protected, but

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everywhere else will see big cuts, but even the NHS will feel tight.

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There is 9% less to spend on each individual given what has happened

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to the structure of the population. Bart's Health said you can find ways

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to care for more patients by the same budget like avoiding

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appointments. Missing appointments costs money, instead of women going

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to three different appointments for three different sites they come here

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and have all three appointments in the same day. So on the same day we

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do the bloods, we do the booking history and the scan. In another

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example of cuts that can help patients, London's stroke wards were

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cut, that cost howls of protest, but health patients avoid the most

:15:58.:16:00.

expensive part of healthcare. Now you get taken, if you have a stroke,

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to one of eight hyperacute stroke centres in London. This is one at

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the Royal London Hospital right now. What has happened is the length of

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stay across London for stroke has gone down from an average of 19 days

:16:12.:16:16.

to ten days. That is a significant benefit to patients, and significant

:16:17.:16:19.

saving for the healthcare economy. If you could well enough keeping

:16:20.:16:23.

people out of hospital it becomes logical to cut back on hospital

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beds. The problem is this isn't a national hospital service, it is a

:16:29.:16:32.

National Health Service, we tend to focus on hospitals as if they are

:16:33.:16:37.

the only way that care can be delivered. And one of the problems

:16:38.:16:43.

is that we find it difficult to demonstrate to the public and to

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some politicians the benefits of delivering care closer to home, more

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personalised and involving and engaging patients and carers. But as

:16:54.:16:59.

the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt recent leap found when he proposed

:17:00.:17:03.

downgrading Accident and Emergency services at Lewisham, what is

:17:04.:17:09.

clinically logical may not be politically palatable. The

:17:10.:17:12.

efficiencies can mean innovation, but it can also mean subtley

:17:13.:17:16.

restricting access to some treatments, otherwise known as

:17:17.:17:20.

rationing. At what point do you need an operation? What is the threshold

:17:21.:17:25.

you have to cross over until you need a cataract. How ill do you have

:17:26.:17:29.

to be before you need a hip operation and so on. These are

:17:30.:17:33.

clinical judgments and they are judgments, it is not a fixed line in

:17:34.:17:38.

the sand. But the NHS has looked at those. How in a sense how behind do

:17:39.:17:42.

you have to be before you have a cataract. However the NHS innovates,

:17:43.:17:49.

it will be hard to convince the public that a cut of 9% per person

:17:50.:17:55.

won't hurt a bit. For couples making their on contribution to the

:17:56.:17:58.

population, every pound spent on healthcare is precious.

:17:59.:18:02.

How good are you at writing computer code. Once upon a time ambitious

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parents discouraged their children from learning keyboard skills

:18:08.:18:10.

because they might determine their job prospects. Today without

:18:11.:18:14.

keyboard skills your job prospects are definitely affected for the

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worst. There is now a serious effort to encourage teachers to pass on

:18:20.:18:23.

coding skills, once they have been taught how to do it properly for

:18:24.:18:26.

themselves, of course. Learning to use code is seen by some as the

:18:27.:18:35.

three Rs once were. Don't forget to put a semicolon at the end of any of

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these lines here, just to tell the browsers you have ended the line. A

:18:40.:18:44.

group of high-powered women in London's Tech City are learning

:18:45.:18:47.

though code. They are presented with a series of baffling computer

:18:48.:18:57.

commands. We are hiding the form in case they are not yet at the

:18:58.:19:05.

location. This Gobbledegook will help them build apps. Lily Cole, the

:19:06.:19:12.

actress and model is in the process of launching her own app and

:19:13.:19:16.

website. I have heard learning code is like learning a foreign language?

:19:17.:19:22.

It is like several foreign languages at a time. It is cool to see how

:19:23.:19:27.

quickly we can pick it up. We have all built a website in one day which

:19:28.:19:31.

is cool. Starting to play with design and seeing immediately how

:19:32.:19:35.

the affects of the text creates visual imagery, it is an amazing

:19:36.:19:38.

thing to see. What do you make of kids learning about it in school? I

:19:39.:19:42.

love the idea of kids learning about it in school. I was looking for

:19:43.:19:46.

coders over the last few years and quite shocked by what a limited

:19:47.:19:52.

supply there was to meet the growing demand. I taught myself to code when

:19:53.:19:56.

I was eight. The Government has announced, through this ad that 2014

:19:57.:20:01.

is the year of code. It wants to tackle the skills shortage by making

:20:02.:20:04.

coding part of the national curriculum. It will be taught to

:20:05.:20:08.

5-16-year-olds. I want to make sure that kids in our schools are not

:20:09.:20:13.

just consumers of technology and computer programmes, they don't just

:20:14.:20:17.

know how to open up Word and Power point, they also understand how the

:20:18.:20:21.

computer programmes are put together, they understand coding. It

:20:22.:20:25.

comes after years of criticism from within the tech industry that

:20:26.:20:29.

Britain, the country that invented the first electronic computer, is in

:20:30.:20:35.

danger of throwing that computer heritage away. Great Britain has

:20:36.:20:38.

something like 10% of our industry is based around IT and computer

:20:39.:20:41.

science and computer software. We have a great heritage and place to

:20:42.:20:48.

build on. What hasn't been happening is teaching kids about computer

:20:49.:20:53.

programming at a young age. So we have lost that background of people

:20:54.:20:59.

coming up through the schooling system with that experience. Does

:21:00.:21:07.

anybody know what coding is? You use words and numbers to give the

:21:08.:21:13.

computer instructions? These 10-11-year-olds have just started

:21:14.:21:16.

learning about coding. It is a pilot for the lessons the Government is

:21:17.:21:21.

producing in England and Wales from September. Why can't you just play

:21:22.:21:25.

and work on a computer, why do you need to know all that stuff? Because

:21:26.:21:30.

when you are older you might need coding for your work, say if you

:21:31.:21:34.

were a banker you need coding to do the banks. Do you think you might

:21:35.:21:42.

need it? Yeah. To do what? To work and to make your own website if you

:21:43.:21:47.

wanted to. Half a million pounds has been pledged by the Government to

:21:48.:21:52.

train up more than 170,000 primary and secondary teachers in coding

:21:53.:21:59.

over the next six months. There is a lot of different apps and softwares

:22:00.:22:03.

available now that weren't available before. And even adults, we're new

:22:04.:22:10.

to it as well. We will need to learn things we haven't covered in initial

:22:11.:22:15.

teacher training. Are you a tiny bit daunted? A little bit. Here in Tech

:22:16.:22:20.

City they are trying out for people who know how to code. One local tech

:22:21.:22:28.

entrepeneur have to go abroad to find people to do it. It is war of

:22:29.:22:33.

who can get the people first. As far as the industry is concerned the

:22:34.:22:36.

coding lessons can't start soon enough. There is a bit of concern

:22:37.:22:39.

about how the subject is taught. In terms of your fears what do you

:22:40.:22:42.

think it could be like if they are not careful? I didn't like learning

:22:43.:22:46.

French and the reason I didn't like it is because I thought it is

:22:47.:22:50.

completely irrelevant, I thought I'm learning to pass an example, why

:22:51.:22:53.

should I care. Where as if it was sold to me that you can go to France

:22:54.:22:57.

and experience a whole new culture, I would have gone I will go, try it

:22:58.:23:03.

and experience it. Coding could be taught in a way where you sit down

:23:04.:23:09.

and it is like let's learn the grammar of html, it is so abstract

:23:10.:23:15.

and boring. If you ground it in a serious problem in my life or issue

:23:16.:23:18.

or something really cool I want to do. It is about making it relevant

:23:19.:23:23.

ultimately. Coursed say where the English language was once an

:23:24.:23:27.

essential business commodity, now in a digital era, code is the new king

:23:28.:23:32.

of global communication. The Government helped to launch the

:23:33.:23:37.

Year of Code campaign, and Lottie Dexter is the director, how easy is

:23:38.:23:42.

it to learn how to code? I can't code. I have committed this year to

:23:43.:23:49.

learning to code. A year? You can do a lot in a short space of time. You

:23:50.:23:54.

can build a website in an hour. From scratch, not knowing how to do it?

:23:55.:23:59.

Completely from scratch. Over this year I will see what I can achieve.

:24:00.:24:03.

Who knows I might be the next Zuckerberg in 12 months time. It is

:24:04.:24:08.

possible, one can always dream. How long does it take to learn to teach

:24:09.:24:15.

to code? Well I think you can pick it up in day. The teacher can pick

:24:16.:24:21.

it up in a day? I think if we start teachers thinking about it now, in

:24:22.:24:27.

March we're taking coding into the classrooms for the first time and

:24:28.:24:31.

encouraging all teachers to teach an hour to their pupils. If we start

:24:32.:24:35.

thinking about it now in time for September when it goes on to the

:24:36.:24:39.

schools curriculum teachers should feel excited and people should be

:24:40.:24:44.

about learning code. Isn't it all based on falsehood, the idea that it

:24:45.:24:48.

is essential to know how to code. It is not essential to know how to code

:24:49.:24:54.

or how a lightbulb works, is it? In the modern day economy code is

:24:55.:24:58.

really a vital skill. Technology has completely changed our economy, our

:24:59.:25:03.

Labour market, our society. To know how to do it? Unless we understand

:25:04.:25:07.

technology we don't really understand how the world works. When

:25:08.:25:11.

I was at school I was taught you know so much about the human body,

:25:12.:25:18.

in physics I was told to wire up a lightbulb, it is important to know

:25:19.:25:21.

how it works. Knowing how to code is crucial for so many people for

:25:22.:25:26.

getting jobs in the new economy. We need a work force for the new

:25:27.:25:29.

economy. But also to increase your earnings potential and to start your

:25:30.:25:33.

own business. In this new economy wouldn't it be more useful to

:25:34.:25:37.

learning something like mandarin? I think the code is an international

:25:38.:25:42.

language. I think that if you can learn to code you can interact

:25:43.:25:47.

across boundaries and you can, I think the important thing is that

:25:48.:25:52.

you can get yourself started, it is a great leveller. Having code in

:25:53.:25:56.

schools and giving every pupil the ability to code, they can, you know,

:25:57.:26:00.

start their own business, it is not something that is just marginalised

:26:01.:26:07.

for middle-class parents. It can be whatever you want it to be, the

:26:08.:26:10.

schools on the Internet are so cheap and easily available now. You can

:26:11.:26:14.

set up your on-line profile and start a website. I started a

:26:15.:26:18.

campaign last year. If I would have learned code at school I could have

:26:19.:26:22.

done my own website. I could have done my own app and graphics, I

:26:23.:26:25.

would have saved a hell of a lot of time and money. I think I could have

:26:26.:26:35.

done it a lot better. For the sake of old duffers like Mark You are --

:26:36.:26:46.

Urban, what is code? It is the language of instructing computers.

:26:47.:26:49.

It is how you make computers do things. So it is different symbols?

:26:50.:26:54.

But it doesn't mean anything? It doesn't mean anything to you or

:26:55.:26:58.

indeed to me yet, because I don't know how to code. It is a set of

:26:59.:27:04.

instructions you type into a computer to get an output. When this

:27:05.:27:08.

goes on to the schools curriculum, every pupil from the age of five

:27:09.:27:12.

will learn how to code. They will pop into a box a set of instructions

:27:13.:27:18.

and they will see what you put in you get it out. It is how you make

:27:19.:27:30.

computers do something. What is an e-card. It is a virtual card. There

:27:31.:27:34.

is a national initiative to teach people how to make cards? And

:27:35.:27:39.

websites and apps, they are fun ways of learning a very important skill

:27:40.:27:42.

that you really need. It is the future. You really need it for the

:27:43.:27:49.

21st job market. Three Rs and a C. Thank you very much. An Australian

:27:50.:27:55.

reporter, a Canadian-Egyptian producer and Egyptian cameraman are

:27:56.:28:01.

spending their 39th night in custody in Cairo. All three work for

:28:02.:28:06.

Al-Jazeera, they are accused of links to terrorism and broadcasting

:28:07.:28:12.

false news. Where would we be if that was an offence in this country.

:28:13.:28:19.

Footage of their arrest was put on a Cairo TV channel set to music. Our

:28:20.:28:27.

diplomatic editor is here. This all seems to have ratcheted up recently?

:28:28.:28:33.

Absolutely, in the past couple of days. These journalists were

:28:34.:28:38.

arrested at the end of December. It is a cause for concern they are

:28:39.:28:43.

still there. Things start to change, the Tahir TV station airs this

:28:44.:28:49.

footage designed to make them look like people involved in some kind of

:28:50.:28:54.

conspiracy. On the right is a former BBC man, I worked beside him in

:28:55.:29:00.

Baghdad morning places. The other man has a Canadian passport. They

:29:01.:29:04.

are making these serious-sounding charges. They have also announced

:29:05.:29:12.

they want to talk to another 20 people son similar-sounding charges,

:29:13.:29:17.

like aiding the Muslim Brotherhood. Al-Jazeera says only nine worked for

:29:18.:29:21.

them. Another fled Egypt having been in hiding. The situation escalated

:29:22.:29:25.

last night and the White House expressed its grave concern. Sorry I

:29:26.:29:33.

thought we were about to hear the White House expressing grave concern

:29:34.:29:38.

there. Tell me, journalists generally, it seems to me, are now

:29:39.:29:42.

finding it extremely difficult to work there, aren't they? It has

:29:43.:29:50.

before difficult. There are different levels of aggro, people

:29:51.:29:54.

right from the fall of Mubarak are angry, they blame us and other news

:29:55.:29:59.

organisations. There is aggro on the streets. Sometimes sexual aggro

:30:00.:30:08.

towards female reporters. Then at intermediate -- interimmediate level

:30:09.:30:13.

you have bureaucracy thrown at reporters about them being

:30:14.:30:17.

registered. At this top of the tree this type of thing, arrest and

:30:18.:30:22.

serious charges. What is paying out here goes beyond an irritation that

:30:23.:30:28.

the people have with foreign media and what part they played. There is

:30:29.:30:33.

a battle of influence between Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Al-Jazeera is

:30:34.:30:39.

based in Qatar, the Egyptian Government claim it acts as an arm

:30:40.:30:43.

of the Government there. They were supporting Mohammed Morsi, the

:30:44.:30:48.

ousted President, the Egyptian military regards clamping down on

:30:49.:30:59.

them and favouring the rivals. One Egyptian journalist said to me

:31:00.:31:03.

frankly this will go on until the Emir of Qatar changes his mind.

:31:04.:31:11.

We're joined now from Doha by our guest, director of news at

:31:12.:31:15.

Al-Jazeera English Channel. What have you heard about your three or

:31:16.:31:24.

four hostages in Egypt? There are three from the English Channel and

:31:25.:31:28.

one from the Arabic channel in detention. The one from the Arabic

:31:29.:31:32.

channel is in detention for six months now, and he is on a hunger

:31:33.:31:40.

strike. The three Al-Jazeera men are in one cell in a high-security

:31:41.:31:45.

prison in Cairo. They were served charges. Conveniently the charges

:31:46.:31:49.

were split between the Egyptian journalists and non-Egyptian

:31:50.:31:52.

journalists. The Egyptians were accused of being members of

:31:53.:31:58.

terrorist organisations and non-Egyptians of aiding them. It is

:31:59.:32:02.

actually fabrication and nonsense and intimidation and irritation of

:32:03.:32:06.

journalists in order to get one side of the story coming from Egypt only.

:32:07.:32:16.

Is it true that some of your people there are or were there without

:32:17.:32:21.

being properly accredited. Let's set a few things clear from the

:32:22.:32:25.

beginning. The accreditation is part of the charges. As I read in the

:32:26.:32:33.

charges here they are always mentioned that they are

:32:34.:32:39.

nonaccredited with the intention of harming security. It is a simple

:32:40.:32:46.

charge and doesn't refer journalists to criminal courts. Were they

:32:47.:32:52.

properly accredited there or not? Al-Jazeera media network is

:32:53.:32:56.

officially accredited to work in Egypt. It has been working for all

:32:57.:33:03.

the time. Were those officials accredited there? Some of the

:33:04.:33:07.

journalists are accredited, and some applied for accreditation. It

:33:08.:33:11.

happens with all media organisations, this is not the

:33:12.:33:15.

charge, they are being charged with. It is a nonaccredited

:33:16.:33:24.

journallingists with the intent of harming national security. If they

:33:25.:33:30.

were only not accredited that is a very simple administrative offence.

:33:31.:33:37.

So you say, it is the case, is it not that Qatar has been playing a

:33:38.:33:45.

role in recent events in Egypt. That it is at odds with the military

:33:46.:33:49.

Government there and Al-Jazeera is largely run by the Government of

:33:50.:33:53.

Qatar, is that not correct? I'm not a spokesman for the Government of

:33:54.:33:58.

Qatar, and Al-Jazeera is not run by the Government of Qatar. Actually

:33:59.:34:03.

the BBC is like Al-Jazeera, BBC World Service is funded by the

:34:04.:34:06.

Foreign Ministry. It is not owned by a member of the Royal Family? No,

:34:07.:34:14.

but the British Government has the support of governors. It is not

:34:15.:34:19.

owned by them either? By the Foreign Ministry, BBC World Service. I was

:34:20.:34:24.

an editor on there and I know that. It has a board of governors and

:34:25.:34:28.

editorial guidelines and it answers for this. The same thing here we are

:34:29.:34:34.

an independent organisation, funded by the Qatar Government and we have

:34:35.:34:39.

our own board of governors and code of ethics and conduct that we answer

:34:40.:34:44.

for. All our products and our reports are on-line and they are, we

:34:45.:34:50.

are of high quality and objectivity. You can see how the Egyptian

:34:51.:34:56.

Government, which is at odds with the Qatary Government might feel

:34:57.:35:01.

that an organisation funded by the Qatar Government was about some

:35:02.:35:04.

other business than nearly as you put it, objectily reporting the

:35:05.:35:13.

news. I know the accusations and the same accusations were put to the BBC

:35:14.:35:19.

by Zimbabwe when you weren't able to report from there and other places.

:35:20.:35:22.

Governments were at odds together but we are free journalists. We are

:35:23.:35:28.

independent and we cherish our quality of work and integrity. And

:35:29.:35:34.

our mission to get to the viewer the story from all sides regardless of

:35:35.:35:38.

the price for them. Thank you very much for joining us thank you. It is

:35:39.:35:45.

surely no surprise when an England sporting team and fails

:35:46.:35:50.

spectacularly, heads sooner or later will role. It is usually preceded by

:35:51.:35:57.

the sports pages clicking their knitting needles together. Today it

:35:58.:36:01.

is the other way round, for reasons they didn't bother to explain the

:36:02.:36:05.

England Cricket Board dumped Kevin Pietersen, because the national

:36:06.:36:12.

cricket team put up such a pathetic performance this winter. Now the

:36:13.:36:19.

journalists are up in arms at the dismissal of the captain Michael

:36:20.:36:24.

Vaughan? What do you think of the way Kevin Pietersen's case has been

:36:25.:36:29.

handled. It needs clarity, reasoning from the ECB for the fans to

:36:30.:36:35.

understand what has Kevin Pietersen been doing behind the scenes to

:36:36.:36:38.

bring the sacking of the player that has scored more runs than anybody

:36:39.:36:44.

else. I have captained him and at times he's difficult and a Payne in

:36:45.:36:47.

the back side, but a maverick that can win you games of cricket. You

:36:48.:36:53.

know him and you have captained him, if anybody who can divine why he was

:36:54.:36:58.

going it has to be you? There is times when Kevin Pietersen and that

:36:59.:37:01.

character is difficult around the team. He has played 100 test matches

:37:02.:37:07.

and has an opinion. You as a leader you have to take on opinion. At

:37:08.:37:11.

times when you are leading and the team aren't doing well, the opinion

:37:12.:37:16.

from senior players and outside world will not always be the opinion

:37:17.:37:19.

you want to hear. But you have to deal with it. Management of players

:37:20.:37:26.

is like management. If you can't manage a maverick like Pietersen you

:37:27.:37:34.

need to think bin again. England have a lots of matches coming up, I

:37:35.:37:38.

just think it is sad for the game that we don't have a group of people

:37:39.:37:44.

that can manage one player through that period of play in three big

:37:45.:37:48.

series, big tournaments for England. They feel the only way to move

:37:49.:37:54.

forward is getting rid of Pietersen without explaining what he has done

:37:55.:38:00.

wrong. Did he have any friend in the dressing room? There is always

:38:01.:38:05.

devisive moments and cliques of people getting on with a certain

:38:06.:38:10.

penalty more than another. What I hear from the tour is Pietersen is

:38:11.:38:15.

fight. It was only last week that Swanson who retired came out and

:38:16.:38:19.

said Pietersen, his attitude was spot on, since he has been

:38:20.:38:25.

reintegrated into the side. He felt Kevin had plenty more runs to score

:38:26.:38:29.

for England. That is somebody in the dressing room. I don't think it is a

:38:30.:38:33.

be proem. He has stood up to the coach, Andy Flower, on the tour of

:38:34.:38:38.

Australia, he didn't like it, but they have listen to Flores and Cook,

:38:39.:38:44.

I don't think Ashley Giles could have said too much. Pietersen wasn't

:38:45.:38:49.

in Australia on the one day series, but English cricket feel the only

:38:50.:38:54.

way to move forward without Pietersen. I would have taken a

:38:55.:38:57.

tougher call and said somebody needs to manage him better. How difficult

:38:58.:39:01.

is it to manage a brilliant and you have used the word wise now about

:39:02.:39:06.

Pietersen, a "brilliant maverick". Well it is training -- draining and

:39:07.:39:15.

hard. It is very rewarding, if you look at English cricket over the

:39:16.:39:18.

last ten years, Flintoff had the same quality. You manage him and

:39:19.:39:23.

2005 he delivered, as did Pietersen in the last over. Go through the

:39:24.:39:28.

last six or seven years, he was man of the tournament in Barbados, the

:39:29.:39:35.

T20, he averaged 106 against independent. We got a double century

:39:36.:39:42.

in the Test Match. England would have drawn going down 1-0 at Perth.

:39:43.:39:47.

You look at a year-and-a-half ago when he produced problem the best

:39:48.:39:51.

England hundred I have seen for many years. England win that series with

:39:52.:39:56.

Kevin Pietersen. 100 hold Trafford last year, it would have been 2-1,

:39:57.:40:01.

with two to play for Australia. You have to accept with people like

:40:02.:40:05.

Pietersen and Flintoff they train you a bit but they reward you with

:40:06.:40:10.

the performance levels, not just the mediocrity. The best teams and best

:40:11.:40:14.

attacks in the world. That is what Petersen has done, he can be --

:40:15.:40:19.

Pietersen has done, he can be a Payne and difficult, but also the

:40:20.:40:22.

person who makes you win games of cricket. You have to be careful you

:40:23.:40:28.

shouldn't bin someone like that and don't reward him in a way and say

:40:29.:40:31.

thanks for your time with us, thanks for winning us all those gapes. And

:40:32.:40:38.

don't know him out like they have, and they could have moved the team

:40:39.:40:45.

on. Aclots -- across the south of England men and women have been

:40:46.:40:49.

drying off their shoes ready for a walk to work tomorrow. Trains and

:40:50.:40:53.

depots and commuters were left in fury, which is probably more

:40:54.:40:59.

accurately designed as sullen, resentment. Much dark talk in

:41:00.:41:07.

political circles of plans for the MPs to change the law and half

:41:08.:41:12.

people having to vote yes to industrial action. Once upon a time

:41:13.:41:17.

the BBC had an industrial correspondent. Strike reporters.

:41:18.:41:22.

Time to resurrect the last of them. It was tough getting to work, the

:41:23.:41:28.

two unions that represent the tube station staff are not the drivers

:41:29.:41:36.

who are out on strike. They are in a dispute over the loss of 750 jobs

:41:37.:41:40.

from closing the direct offices. Lots of people are faced disruption

:41:41.:41:46.

today, more London Underground lines and stations have been closed in

:41:47.:41:51.

this strike than any tube business pute for the last ten years. It is

:41:52.:41:57.

said to be costing London ?50 million a year. And with another

:41:58.:42:03.

two-day stoppage plan for next week, the Conservatives are determined to

:42:04.:42:09.

stop them happening again. Boris Johnson says:

:42:10.:42:15.

The Prime Minister want to go further, imposing a minimum service

:42:16.:42:22.

level agreed so they provide a little service. The Conservatives on

:42:23.:42:28.

a Greater London Authority wants an all-out ban on strikes. They should

:42:29.:42:33.

be replaced by binding arbitration. We want to replace strikes, so

:42:34.:42:37.

damaging to the economy and London. The idea if the Government were to

:42:38.:42:41.

accept that it is binding arbitration in the case of an

:42:42.:42:46.

argument going on between Transport for London and the union. A judge

:42:47.:42:50.

would look at it and decide which was the case that he was going to

:42:51.:42:56.

support. Today's strike would have been unlawful. There would have to

:42:57.:43:02.

be a judge deciding in favour of TFL or the unions in the job cut. That's

:43:03.:43:06.

right, there would not be a strike. In the 1970s and 80, I was always

:43:07.:43:12.

coming to the then headquarters of the Conservative Party, to hear of

:43:13.:43:15.

their latest plans for curbing the trade unions. And it became an

:43:16.:43:19.

all-out war against the British trade union movement. The 1984

:43:20.:43:27.

miners' strike was a turning point in Britain's troubled industrial

:43:28.:43:33.

relations. In a war of attrition Margaret Thatcher said she was

:43:34.:43:35.

taking on the enemy within. And her defeat of the shocked troops of the

:43:36.:43:39.

union movement ended the all out strikes in the past. Successive

:43:40.:43:43.

Conservative Government have curbed union power imposing secret ballots

:43:44.:43:48.

before strike. Ending pass picketing but trying to stop essential

:43:49.:43:53.

services and striking is unfinished business. With the coalition

:43:54.:43:56.

Government, Liberal Democrats are a break on the Conservatives. Vincent

:43:57.:44:04.

Cable won't be rushed into changing the law. If we legislate on

:44:05.:44:09.

industrial relations we have to look carefully at the evidence, not

:44:10.:44:14.

rushing into strike laws on the back of a bad dispute in London it is a

:44:15.:44:19.

bad way to proceed. The tube train drivers have previously staged their

:44:20.:44:23.

own strikes and like the station staff they would fight back against

:44:24.:44:29.

any new laws. Its It is time for trade unions to stand up for

:44:30.:44:37.

themselves with the general public. -- I think you will see massive

:44:38.:44:42.

backlash against this from civil society. The reality is trade union

:44:43.:44:46.

numbers are growing. We believe that is a direct reaction to the policies

:44:47.:44:51.

that are currently in place. People now see a greater need for trade

:44:52.:44:55.

unions and they will become more powerful as we go forward, I think.

:44:56.:45:01.

While the unions claim they have the backing of two thirds of passengers,

:45:02.:45:04.

the Conservatives are convinced the strikes are unpopular and present a

:45:05.:45:09.

fresh opportunity to introduce legislation they have been working

:45:10.:45:12.

on for years, to curb stoppages in the essential services, a policy

:45:13.:45:15.

that is more likely to be in the Conservatives' next election

:45:16.:45:17.

manifesto. Now the front pages: That's it at the close of another

:45:18.:46:20.

day of rain and general glum wintriness. The railway line was

:46:21.:46:28.

washed away in Dawlish in Devon. And in Torquay the seafront took a

:46:29.:46:32.

pasting. Nice to think not all Februarys are quite like this.

:46:33.:46:42.

The glorious Devon coast bathed in winter sunshine, equalising any

:46:43.:46:49.

Mediterranean beauty spot. Don't you think. How is this for climate. Why

:46:50.:46:54.

even from the screen you can imagine yourself in the sub-topics.

:46:55.:47:04.

Sub-topics. Bathing too all the year round. The gulfstream is as warm as

:47:05.:47:10.

the Mediterranean, not August, remember. This is February.

:47:11.:47:12.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

A UN report demands the Vatican removes all clergy who are known or suspected child abusers. Plus, coding being taught in schools, banning strikes and Michael Vaughan on Kevin Pieterson.