10/02/2014 Newsnight


10/02/2014

Paxman v Environment Agency boss. Floods spread. Sue Lloyd Roberts hunts rhino poachers. What is Miliband-ism? Funny women. The philosopher Stuart Hall dies.


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The Minister for floods and ahead of the Environment Agency have started

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resembling to drowning man trying to clamber on one another's shoulders.

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As not only the West Country is menaced by floods, we try to

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discover how it has all gone so wrong in that usual British way as

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who should we blame? A former Cabinet minister who chairs

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the Environment Agency is here to defend his record.

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Sue Lloyd Roberts tracks down the men who are helping drive rhinos to

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the brink of extinction for the sake of quack medicine in the East.

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How much I you charging? What is this? A panel of comics

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without a testicle between them. They talk about why television

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comedy needs rescuing from men. As if they haven't got enough to

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content with already, residents flooded parts of the South and West

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of England had to put up with another inundation of politicians

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today. It is like the ten plagues of ancient Egypt. Both by Minister and

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Deputy Prime Minister were on hand while lesser figures cast around for

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people to blame. Now the Thames is flooded as well. The Environment

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Agency is the that is being kicked by most. -- the cat.

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And so it spreads. The wintry rainfall that flooded the Somerset

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Levels and the south-west is now inflicting its misery on the

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south-east. Record-breaking sheets of rain have overwhelmed defences.

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The area around Windsor is being engulfed by the spreading Thames.

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Wraysbury is submerged. Half of the village is devastated. This has as

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been abandoned, lots of people have got no flood insurance and that is

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the biggest problem. In 2003 we have lots of looting of empty houses. We

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need the army to man every street. Down that road the houses are

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between ten and 12 feet underwater. Normal life has been postponed.

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It is really quite hard, because we were trying to get to school, it can

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be quite wet and we don't want to get our uniform wept.

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This family is one of the last on the street to resist evacuation.

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In terms of people here to come and support and help us Wraysbury seems

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to have been a little bit forgotten. And what is the response

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from Westminster? He spotted a convenient scapegoat in order to

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distract attention from the government and failure.

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It is entirely wrong for the honourable lady to suggest for one

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moment that I have issued even the slightest criticism of the

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marvellous workforce of the Environment Agency. He ought to be

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apologising instead of continuously passing the buck and saying it is

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everybody else's responsibility. A few politicians have taken a few

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trips down to the water line, but mostly MPs and quango crabs have

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been apportioning blame. What about these claims and counterclaims?

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Let's start with the money. In 2009 the Environment Agency estimated

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Britain would need to continually increased the amount it spends on

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flood defences. Without more money it want increasing numbers of houses

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would be at risk from flooding in the coming decades. And the

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coalition the amount of cash spent on flood defence fell from 670, two

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?606 million. Last week the government pledged a further ?100

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million in cash for next year taking the total back-up to ?715 million.

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Even so, flood spending is still down on 2010, once you take

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inflation into account. Last year a committee of MPs said funding had

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led to the failure to maintain watercourses affectively so is it

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due to a lack of money England is underwater or perhaps it is because

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as another group of MPs want no 1's body is clearly in charge of holding

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back the water. -- no single body. Take the Somerset Levels, flooding

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there is the responsibility of the Environment Agency. And Sedgemoor

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district Council. And Taunton Deane district Council. And South Somerset

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district Council. And Somerset county council. Natural England. And

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the local internal drainage board. Tricky? Most of the public bile has

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been focused on dredging, clearing up Rivers said a flow faster.

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Officials brave enough to venture there have been berated for ignoring

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this common sense solution but would dredging have made any difference in

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a year as dramatically wet as this? You need a fortitude drive the water

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out the rivers and we don't have that in the Somerset Levels. My hand

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is horizontal, you have got it I going up and down but basically you

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have got a horizontal water service said it was no force pushing the

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water out. -- surface stop if you think about Cardiff Bay on my

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doorstep. You have a horizontal water level and if you dredge down

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to some considerable depth of it wouldn't fundamentally make a lot of

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difference. If not dredging, what is the answer? The Bridgwater Bay

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lagoon might be the best idea we have to keep Somerset dry in future.

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A vast barrier into the sea, like the similar scheme for Swansea, that

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would look good, generate vast amounts of electricity. And it would

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cost ?80 million. There is no need to be defeatist about flooding. Big

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projects like the Thames Barrier show if you really care about an

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area we can keep it safe. The big projects cost big money. The real

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question is whether the rest of Britain cares enough to save

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Somerset. Inch roof, the argument is not about dredging. It is not about

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funding from one year to the next, it is not about the shape of a

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bureaucracy. It is about priorities. If you don't want to surrender to

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the water you need massive, expensive, long-term plans.

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Meanwhile tonight in Wraysbury the waters are still rising. Families

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are guarding their cold, wet homes for fear of looting. It is not clear

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anyone has a plan to stop this from happening again. Whose fault is it?

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Fundamentally it is the weather's fault. We have had the most extreme

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weather over the course of the last two and a half months that we have

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ever seen. The highest storm surge on the East Coast for 60 years, the

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stormiest period over Christmas and New Year, the wettest January ever

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recorded, the highest waves ever recorded against the south coast.

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This is extreme natural forces having a go at us. And we need to

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find the best possible ways of defending ourselves against them. As

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the Environment Agency made any mistakes? We have all made mistakes.

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The Environment Agency has done a really good job of protecting 1.3

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million homes over the course of the last two months. What mistakes were

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they? That would have been flooded if our defences hadn't been in

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place. There are things like last year on the Somerset Levels, when we

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put ?400,000 on the table to start some real dredging, that was the

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maximum we were allowed to spend by the Treasury rules that bind us.

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What we didn't do and we should probably have done, was really twist

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arms of the other players, the district councils, county council,

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drainage boards, to come to the table with other contributions. It

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is something we all should have worked actively on. We were stepping

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up to the plate and seeing our -- providing our contribution. We put

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the money on the table, and that at the time was the maximum we were

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allowed to put on the table by the Treasury 's rules. The Treasury

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rules determine what we can and cannot do. What has now happened,

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however, over the course of the last week, are two significant things.

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One is the government have said there is an extra ?10 million for

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Somerset, that will be of enormous help. The other thing even more

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important than that is the Secretary of State for the environment, Owen

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Paterson, has said the Treasury rules should not apply to Somerset,

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because it is such a unique landscape.

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But you knew one year ago, more than that, that there was a need for

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dredging in those two rivers you mentioned, the River Tone and the

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River Parrett, yet it never happened. That is why we put our

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contribution they're ready to be used. It was the fact we didn't get

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the other money coming in that would have enabled us to do it. Why did

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the report recommending the dredging to be carried out seems to be

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removed from your website? I know nothing about that. We have

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consistently said over the course of the last 12 months we believe

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dredging of these rivers would make a useful contribution to improving

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flood defences in the Somerset Levels. But they cannot be

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quantified GIF -- but they cannot be a conference of solution? You need

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to do other things as well, hold the water higher up the catchment.

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Running down into the levels, prevent the River Severn from

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backing up into the Somerset levels which is does every time the tide

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comes in. I wonder in your position when you look and there is water

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everywhere whether you don't think about resigning. The Environment

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Agency has been doing a really good job at protecting 1.3 million

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homes. Sadly that doesn't detract from the real misery and distress

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that is felt by the 5000 people who have been flooded up and down the

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country, not just in Somerset for the Thames but across the country

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over the course of the last two months. This is an agency that boys

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more people than the combined equivalent of France, Germany,

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Austria. They don't deal with flood defence. We did not only with flood

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defence, we also deal with industrial waste regulation, a whole

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range of responsibilities. You have got too much to do. I don't think

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so. We have something like 3000 staff, who are dedicated to working

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on flood defence. When there is a flooding emergency, as we have been

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experiencing over the past two months, we bring in other staff from

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other parts of the agency to help with the immediate response to the

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emergency. And that is a very good reason why we need to have the

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strength of the Environment Agency as a whole in order to assist with

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coping with flooding. There is another way of looking at it, you

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could decide the job is too big, some places you should give up on.

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There are indeed some places, particularly on the coast, where it

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makes sense to retreat a little bit in order to protect more strongly.

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Good example of that is an area that we have been lambasted for by one of

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the local MPs in Somerset, he says we have spent money on creating a

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bird sanctuary. In fact we have done is created a rather good sea

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defence. It was old sea defences that were eroding, we retreated

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further back, we created better, new sea defences, they protect a lot of

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properties in Somerset. And in the process we have created intertidal

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habitat that happens to be rather good for birds. Where are the places

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you should give up one, do you think? I don't think there is

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anywhere where there is a community or where there is economic activity,

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or where there is vibrant life going on. I don't think there is anywhere

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we should simply give up on. We should try and find the best ways of

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protecting where we possibly can. There will be some areas of land,

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some areas of Coast, where we probably, in due course, not

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immediately, need to retreat a little bit in order to protect

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better. Thank you very much.

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The question that has kept so many of us awake at night, what exactly

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is Milibandism, was answered tonight. The Labour leader gave a

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lecture in which he claimed the core of his party's next election

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manifesto would be a redistribution of power. After his attacks on the

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big energy companies and the banks it is possible to make out the

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silhouette of something. How big the shadow willing to cast if he ever

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gets the chance of government? When Labour proposed a radical move on

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the energy market at their conference last year, it was

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something of a lightbulb movement. The cogs began to whir. The next

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Labour Government will freeze gas and electricity prices until the

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start of 2017. Alongside energy, came pay day loan companies, after

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that the banks. The message was clear, he was out to save the

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hard-pressed consumer. Tonight, he is looking at reform of a different

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sector. Public services. Not just the customer in other words, but the

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patients, the parent, the payer of taxes. The time we are in demands of

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new culture. More a market based individualalism, unaccountable

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concentrations of power wherever we find them don't serve the public

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interest and need to be held to account.

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Tonight, he talked of reform to health and education. He wants to

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tackle schools that are failing and to empower the secret weapon, the

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pushy parent. OK, darling. It is nearly time. OK, maybe not her

:16:13.:16:22.

exactly, but her collective force. Parents given powers to call in a

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specialist team to boost the per performance of failing schools. One

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pushy mother isn't convinced. It could become a witch-hunt and they

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maybe able to vote headteachers out and then it becomes an X Factor

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situation. The headteacher maybe persuaded to be popular as opposed

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to doing his or her job for fear of what the parent may say. You are not

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hearing a voice of collective power, you are hearing a threat of

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vigilantism? Parents need to look at themselves. A lot of parents send

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their kids to school not ready to be educated. Mr Miliband's promise to

:17:08.:17:12.

roll back decades of centralisation and accuses the current Government

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of hoarding power and decision making. Now, it is a powerful

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argument, every single time it is made. Usually by a party in

:17:21.:17:26.

opposition, but how much changes? Miliband said, "I call it double

:17:27.:17:31.

devolution, not just Kiev devolution that takes it from central

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Government, but power that goes down to local people providing a critical

:17:36.:17:38.

role for individuals and neighbourhoods." You will see it is

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from a speech in 2006, in a speech not by Ed, but David Miliband. You

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have to get your local councillors on side. You have to get your full

:17:53.:17:58.

Cabinet on side and people who are in charge of things like skills or

:17:59.:18:03.

re-offending and you need to get the public to buy into it and for that

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to happen it needs to be a meaningful for the electorate. Ed

:18:10.:18:14.

Miliband has shown he has an appetite for radical reform.

:18:15.:18:18.

Whatever you make of his plans for the energy companies, the banks, the

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pay day lenders. Perhaps he set the bar so high that people are

:18:26.:18:28.

expecting real bravery. Anything less would like he is prepared to

:18:29.:18:35.

pick fights with everyone, but the home team. Public services, indeed

:18:36.:18:39.

their staffed by many natural Labour voters.

:18:40.:18:46.

A bit of bank bashing, that goes down well. An attack on bonuses for

:18:47.:18:52.

big businesses, that can sit comfortably in troubled times. But

:18:53.:18:57.

this is a proper test for a Labour leader trying to escape his Red Ed

:18:58.:19:04.

tag. Ensuring the power goes elsewhere, well that takes more than

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just a bright idea. Here are Liz Kendall the Shadow

:19:11.:19:19.

Health Minister. Were you impressed by this canvass? I thought the

:19:20.:19:24.

speech was fine and it is a speech on public service reform. We haven't

:19:25.:19:31.

had one of those from Ed Miliband. I don't think it was big enough or

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bold enough to make a breakthrough, but he started, I guess. I wouldn't

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say there was anything wrong with the speech, but it is not taking him

:19:40.:19:45.

where it needs to get to. Well, that's high praise? Matthew is wrong

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about that. To talk about the importance of people powered public

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services, you raised your eyebrow there, Jeremy... That's because it

:19:56.:20:03.

is waffle. If you have seen a patient power to manage their own

:20:04.:20:06.

health condition, if you have seen the parents of children with

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learning disabilities who have been helped to find out what the best

:20:10.:20:13.

practise is and change that and if you have seen how personal budgets

:20:14.:20:19.

in social care have given people real power and say over their lives,

:20:20.:20:22.

that's life transforming and that's what Ed has been talking about

:20:23.:20:26.

today. Did you think that's what he was talking about? I think those are

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the themes and Liz feels this stuff strongly. I think what was missing

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from it was if you go back to Blair's work on public services, he

:20:35.:20:38.

was clear what his target was. He talked about the bureaucratic. He

:20:39.:20:44.

wanted to break-up the big centralised power. What's not quite

:20:45.:20:47.

so clear about Ed Miliband's account, whilst the proposals he has

:20:48.:20:52.

got are fine and the themes are fine. What is his big idea? What

:20:53.:20:56.

binds this stuff together? When you look at the individual policy

:20:57.:20:59.

initiatives, it is not clear what the themes are that's running

:21:00.:21:03.

through them. You didn't see any theme at all? Well, I saw the themes

:21:04.:21:08.

that Liz is talking about. Power to users. Decentralisation, but as your

:21:09.:21:13.

film made clear, it is easy to assert these things, but you need a

:21:14.:21:19.

theory of change. Rhetorical rather than actual? What's the problem. The

:21:20.:21:25.

problem is the way we think about power and policy don't work.

:21:26.:21:29.

Probably the Labour Party is still addicted to those models of power

:21:30.:21:32.

and policy and what Ed hasn't done today is to say to his party, the

:21:33.:21:36.

ways in which we used to think about change don't work anymore. We need a

:21:37.:21:43.

different model of change. Well, I think that Matthew knows that in

:21:44.:21:47.

opposition Tony Blair hadn't really developed his thinking about public

:21:48.:21:51.

service reform. It took him a while when he was in Government and I

:21:52.:21:55.

think Ed is very much ahead of the game here and where Matthew is right

:21:56.:21:59.

is, it is very difficult to give power away. It is difficult for

:22:00.:22:02.

politicians to do that because we often think we know best and you

:22:03.:22:06.

rightly put us under pressure to say what is going to happen and giving

:22:07.:22:11.

power away can be a risk. Does Ed Miliband believe in a smaller State?

:22:12.:22:15.

I think he believes in a reformed State. A different relationship

:22:16.:22:19.

between individuals and the State and what he does believe is that the

:22:20.:22:24.

State can hoard too much power just as the private sector can hoard too

:22:25.:22:29.

much power. One example that he mentioned there, hospitals? Yes.

:22:30.:22:32.

People would be able to have a say in the... Governance of hospitals.

:22:33.:22:40.

But he said, "I'm not going to commit as David Cameron did not to

:22:41.:22:44.

closing any hospitals." That's right, we had David Cameron and

:22:45.:22:49.

Andrew Lansley out with their placards saying they would save

:22:50.:22:53.

hospitals, but they ended up closing them. What's the point of sitting on

:22:54.:22:58.

the board of a hospital... He said you have to give patients and the

:22:59.:23:03.

public more of a role and you have got to have clearer accountability

:23:04.:23:06.

in the consultation. We saw big changes in stroke services in London

:23:07.:23:10.

where they were specialised in regional centres. That was really

:23:11.:23:13.

tough, but the way they made those changes was by going out, involving

:23:14.:23:17.

patients and the public. I can remember being at Victoria Station

:23:18.:23:22.

one day and seeing a huge event where they were asking people for

:23:23.:23:24.

their views. You are never going to get the changes we need unless you

:23:25.:23:27.

really give people a say and make sure that the proper accountability

:23:28.:23:32.

and involvement is there. Your views just need more work, more

:23:33.:23:37.

refinement, more grounding? I think it needs more courage as well. I

:23:38.:23:41.

think that it is still the case that the Labour Party at all levels is

:23:42.:23:45.

full of people who feel that as long as the Labour Party wins the next

:23:46.:23:49.

election through one more heave, they can start pulling the leavers

:23:50.:23:52.

in Whitehall. Whitehall leaver pulling has been unsuccessful. We

:23:53.:23:56.

have had 20 years of reform of our schools, I am not sure they would be

:23:57.:24:00.

any better if there was no reform and you can say more or less the

:24:01.:24:04.

same thing about the Health Service. There is a fundamental problem with

:24:05.:24:10.

policy chakeing and Ed has hinted at it, but he has to give a powerful

:24:11.:24:13.

message and because the Labour Party is committed to statism, you have

:24:14.:24:17.

got to shout this ten times louder than you would normally would for it

:24:18.:24:23.

to breakthrough. Our roots as a party were in

:24:24.:24:27.

community organisations people coming together to help themselves

:24:28.:24:30.

and one another. Thank you very much.

:24:31.:24:38.

Quack medicine is one thing. We can all decide whether to put our faith

:24:39.:24:41.

in so-called traditional cures, but when the ingredients drive a species

:24:42.:24:44.

to the brink of extinction, surely other standards apply. On Thursday

:24:45.:24:48.

Britain plays host to a gathering in London trying to get an

:24:49.:24:50.

international agreement somehow to stop the illegal trade in wildlife.

:24:51.:24:53.

Good luck with that because existing international bans have failed

:24:54.:24:57.

lamentably. The trade is reckoned to be worth over ?6 billion a year,

:24:58.:25:00.

animals dying in great numbers to meet an appetite from unscrupulous

:25:01.:25:03.

dealers supplying rich, stupid people, mainly in Asia. Sue

:25:04.:25:10.

Lloyd-Roberts reports from Vietnam and her report contains some

:25:11.:25:12.

distressing images. I had been given official permission

:25:13.:25:23.

to report on the rhino horn trade in Vietnam and I start by looking for

:25:24.:25:27.

the horn on traditional Chinese medicine street, the place I'm told

:25:28.:25:32.

to buy it. But the poster here warns the trade

:25:33.:25:36.

is now illegal and with my Government minder looking on, I

:25:37.:25:41.

don't have much luck. Do you sell any rhino horn?

:25:42.:25:47.

Does anyone sell n products z products on the street?

:25:48.:25:54.

I'm told that I'm not going to be allowed to film much so I have time

:25:55.:26:01.

on my hands which my minder might have guessed is a dangerous

:26:02.:26:04.

situation to allow a journalist to find herself in. Slipping away that

:26:05.:26:11.

evening, I go shopping again, but with a hidden camera. Now, the

:26:12.:26:17.

traders have no inhibitions like the one I'm directed to in the back of a

:26:18.:26:22.

Taylor's shop. How much are you charging? It is more expensive than

:26:23.:26:30.

gold because of the widely held belief in it's medicinal power. I

:26:31.:26:35.

tell the trader I'm looking for a cancer cure for my husband.

:26:36.:26:44.

He tells me he has several of these horns in stock. They are from the

:26:45.:26:51.

Asian rhino he says which have been hunted out of existence in Vietnam.

:26:52.:26:57.

I make my excuses and leave saying it is out of my price range and I

:26:58.:27:01.

doubt whether it is worth of the money. After all, biologists tell us

:27:02.:27:06.

that it is made of the same material as the human fingernail. This is the

:27:07.:27:15.

horn. When word gets around that I want to buy, I am approached by

:27:16.:27:19.

another trader who offers me horn from Africa.

:27:20.:27:29.

He was particularly obliging, even coming up to my hotel room to show

:27:30.:27:38.

me how to grind it in a special bowl and mix it with water or alcohol to

:27:39.:27:44.

drink. Most of the rhinos in the wild live in South Africa today

:27:45.:27:49.

where more than 1,000 were poached, killed for their horn last year. A

:27:50.:27:58.

40% increase on the year before. Nonetheless rhino hunting is

:27:59.:28:03.

permitted under strict rules. Fewer than 100 experienced hunters can

:28:04.:28:06.

apply for a permit every year to shoot just one rhino and they are

:28:07.:28:12.

required to keep the horn intact as a trophy. The argument is that

:28:13.:28:19.

hunting encourages privately owned rhino parks and therefore, adds to

:28:20.:28:24.

rhino numbers and contributes to the local economy. With no more rhino

:28:25.:28:31.

left in their own country, hundreds of Vietnamese hunters started

:28:32.:28:36.

applying for South African permits. By 2010 more Vietnamese applied to

:28:37.:28:41.

shoot a rhino than any other nationality. But many were selling

:28:42.:28:46.

the horns. Asian criminal gangs were charged with abusing the permit

:28:47.:28:53.

system and in 2012, South Africa banned the Vietnamese from hunting

:28:54.:28:55.

there. I met a wealthy businessman at

:28:56.:29:11.

night. He told me he joined a hunt in South Africa six years ago. He

:29:12.:29:16.

and his friends didn't know how to shoot. Mortally wounded, the rhino

:29:17.:29:24.

limped off. It took three days to find ten kilometres away.

:29:25.:29:44.

So he took a long time to die? Yeah. Everything that he and his friends

:29:45.:29:56.

did up to then was legal. What they did next was not. How much money did

:29:57.:30:03.

the rhino horn make after it was cut up?

:30:04.:30:10.

There is a lot of fake rhino horn around and on my next unofficial

:30:11.:30:28.

shopping expedition I ask for proof. This time I say I am looking for a

:30:29.:30:33.

hangover cure and this man who tells me he is a traditional medicine

:30:34.:30:38.

doctor offers me a slice of rhino horn and a new list of xants that it

:30:39.:30:42.

can -- complaints that it can apparently cure.

:30:43.:30:57.

Is it legal to sell rhino horn in Vietnam?

:30:58.:31:20.

He shows me hunting permits to shoot two rhinos. He took his wife with

:31:21.:31:27.

him. And there is a picture of his 82 old stun -- eight-year-old son

:31:28.:31:34.

standing next to a dead rhino. He shows me the import licence. It says

:31:35.:31:41.

conventional international trade in endangered species. Except that the

:31:42.:31:48.

rules of the convention, of which Vietnam is a symmetry, clearly state

:31:49.:31:52.

the hunting trophy, the horn, must be kept intact, in possession of the

:31:53.:31:59.

hunter, and not under any circumstances solved. A local

:32:00.:32:04.

campaigning group have transmitted shocking and graphic adverts on

:32:05.:32:11.

television. We have blurred this picture of a rhino still alive with

:32:12.:32:15.

its horn and much of its face cut off.

:32:16.:32:23.

The government complained, saying they were too negative. What is the

:32:24.:32:30.

government doing? Five weeks before coming here I had asked to speak to

:32:31.:32:37.

politicians whose job I am told is to stamp out the illegal trade. But

:32:38.:32:41.

when I got here I have been told none of the people I wanted to talk

:32:42.:32:46.

to work available. I am told the topic is too sensitive and five

:32:47.:32:49.

weeks isn't enough time to get everything organised. I get the

:32:50.:32:53.

impression that the problem of the illegal trade in rhino horn here in

:32:54.:32:59.

Vietnam is not regarded as an urgent one. The only official I was allowed

:33:00.:33:08.

to talk to was the man responsible for getting the government to abide

:33:09.:33:11.

by the Convention on trade in endangered species. I put it to him

:33:12.:33:21.

that convention officials had asked Vietnam to introduce new laws to

:33:22.:33:24.

stop punters selling their horns two years ago. -- Unter 's.

:33:25.:33:32.

You cannot submit it in one year. In London this week the

:33:33.:33:52.

international community will be saying they are not doing enough.

:33:53.:33:57.

Procrastination is no longer an option, say the experts. The African

:33:58.:34:03.

rhino now faces extinction. And Vietnam and other countries in Asia

:34:04.:34:07.

must take urgent action to put a stop to this bloody trade.

:34:08.:34:14.

The all-male comedy panel show, the kind we have seen for years and

:34:15.:34:18.

years, is about to end. On the orders of a senior BVC manager every

:34:19.:34:25.

show must have now female representation -- BBC. Why they

:34:26.:34:28.

haven't so far has generated much home-made evolutionary psychology,

:34:29.:34:32.

men need to be able to make women laugh in order to get sex being the

:34:33.:34:36.

commonest theme. When a senior figure at the BBC says jump, we only

:34:37.:34:45.

ask how high will stop --. You can see the most night of the week, be

:34:46.:34:50.

pits disguised as studios in which male comics set out to see who can p

:34:51.:34:56.

higher up the wall. Is it couldn't arrange a Ted in a lavatory? The

:34:57.:35:01.

women who do take part have to adapt to a largish culture and hope their

:35:02.:35:10.

contributions make the final cut. Welcome to biggest historical boots

:35:11.:35:20.

with me, Katie Bryce. It is also true there are many more male

:35:21.:35:25.

comedians than female. Even Jermaine Greer judges that women have not

:35:26.:35:28.

developed the arts of full in, clowning, denies, into a performance

:35:29.:35:41.

as so many men have. Can an edict from immediate naval change that?

:35:42.:35:48.

Here to discuss the subject, and entirely testicle free panel of

:35:49.:35:53.

female comedians and actress and comedian Maureen Lippman is first,

:35:54.:35:56.

the impressionist Jan Ravens, and the stand-up comedian and panel show

:35:57.:36:01.

regular, Lucy Porter. Is this worthwhile? It is very nice to say

:36:02.:36:11.

they will not make any panel shows without women, but it is not the

:36:12.:36:15.

case to just have a token woman. You just feel like the token, and we

:36:16.:36:22.

have got to make it normal, so there are more female hosts, more female

:36:23.:36:27.

team captains, or there is a show, as you have outlined here where

:36:28.:36:34.

there are more of them. What you have done today is what most haven't

:36:35.:36:40.

been able to do. It is a very small desk. Do think it is worthwhile? I

:36:41.:36:49.

am not really for tokenism. Surely it is merely an adequate

:36:50.:36:54.

representation of the population. There is a representation. The

:36:55.:36:59.

problem goes back, is this a programme worth having? I think what

:37:00.:37:04.

has happened is setting women who it does work for, there are women

:37:05.:37:10.

comics like Jo Brand, sandy toxic, who have over the years really, by

:37:11.:37:15.

osmosis, taken on the delivery of men. -- Sandi Tosvig.

:37:16.:37:30.

We don't need to just be talking about female representation on the

:37:31.:37:37.

shows that exist, it is about thinking of some new shows, so that

:37:38.:37:44.

the style of comedy isn't maybe so it yet he later, it is. What does it

:37:45.:37:53.

like appearing on one of those? The only downside is when you are the

:37:54.:37:57.

only woman, you do sort of set out thinking I am representing my entire

:37:58.:38:01.

gender. You don't want that pressure. But what Danny has done is

:38:02.:38:08.

nice but it is responding to what is happening anyway, there is a wider

:38:09.:38:12.

cultural trend towards people saying we would like to see women

:38:13.:38:19.

represented differently. We never get second chance will stop before

:38:20.:38:23.

woman goes on a programme, this does Bobby Blake Joan Bakewell on have I

:38:24.:38:25.

got News for you, Christine Hambleton, Janet Street Porter, but

:38:26.:38:33.

that is it. It is a one-off. We must get loads of different women in,

:38:34.:38:42.

rather than nurture. There is a lack of team captains, regular. And bring

:38:43.:38:47.

in other women so you have always got to. I usual people really care

:38:48.:38:53.

about this? The audience, if you look at the audience for Qi Y,

:38:54.:39:01.

Buzzcocks, it is dominated by women. Higher proportion of women than men.

:39:02.:39:10.

There's roughly a reason why the women are laughing said the men will

:39:11.:39:14.

go home with them afterwards. The whole thing has got to be changed.

:39:15.:39:18.

We should have had a man on this panel tonight. There is not much

:39:19.:39:27.

room. It is not just having a woman, it is the kind of woman. What

:39:28.:39:30.

they quite often do is have a young, pretty girl. We can't have that. If

:39:31.:39:40.

it is supposed to be a comedy show and she isn't funny as well as young

:39:41.:39:45.

and pretty, there are 1 million comedians that could go on the show,

:39:46.:39:48.

but they choose to have, or somebody like... The positive thing is this

:39:49.:39:53.

will change because there are so many women doing comedy really well,

:39:54.:39:58.

Bridget Christie won the comedy awards in Edinburgh, there are still

:39:59.:40:03.

more men than women doing comedy but there are millions of comedians now.

:40:04.:40:07.

Have got too many comedians but luckily that means we have got a lot

:40:08.:40:11.

of women as well. You must remember Nichols and me and Jon Fortune, that

:40:12.:40:17.

was completely equal, there is very little of that about. I have gone

:40:18.:40:27.

completely blank. Do you not remember Mike Nichols and Elaine

:40:28.:40:30.

May? An American duo. So intelligent. That is what we need,

:40:31.:40:44.

more collaborative comedy. Is it a different kind of humour when men

:40:45.:40:47.

and women work well together? Women behave differently when they are on

:40:48.:40:51.

a show with men. They are afraid to be a bit cynical and sneery like

:40:52.:40:55.

they are when they are together. The comedy circuit has changed. It used

:40:56.:41:02.

to be you were the only woman, like a special act, and the clubs have at

:41:03.:41:06.

the Philly sought to have female friendly bills like the stand in

:41:07.:41:10.

Scotland and the glee clubs around the country. They have a nice

:41:11.:41:14.

atmosphere, the dressing rooms are lovely, audience whose love those

:41:15.:41:18.

venues because they know it will not be shouting men. Different kinds of

:41:19.:41:33.

men as well. A lot of actresses, comedians, would say no to being on

:41:34.:41:38.

Mock the week. On what grounds? Fear. It is just a bearpit. I went

:41:39.:41:46.

on it and people say, my God, how brave! For a woman to be yourself,

:41:47.:41:52.

it is quite difficult. Actresses are used to having other people doing

:41:53.:41:56.

the lines for them, not every good comedian is witty. It is quite

:41:57.:42:07.

difficult to interrupted enough. On Mock The Week I spent most of the

:42:08.:42:18.

week... I let you have to be in trainers, you have to run. The News

:42:19.:42:27.

quiz always have loads of women, on the radio. At one stage I'm sorry I

:42:28.:42:34.

haven't a clue hadn't had a woman for ages. We don't touch that, it is

:42:35.:42:41.

a different world. Generally on radio and think things have changed

:42:42.:42:45.

and television is catching up. There are a lot of women who they could

:42:46.:42:51.

ask. Like Tamsin Greg, people from outnumbered. If they would say yes,

:42:52.:42:56.

give them a go. Lots of comedians on the circuit to I haven't seen, who

:42:57.:43:01.

would be brilliant. Sara Pascoe, Rebecca front was good. Thank you

:43:02.:43:10.

all very much. It was announced to day one of the

:43:11.:43:14.

founders of the highly influential doctrine of multiculturalism has

:43:15.:43:17.

died. Stuart Hall, a Jamaican immigrant who became an open

:43:18.:43:22.

University professor, a rather impressive speaker and a hero to

:43:23.:43:24.

readers of the Guardian and New Left Review, was 82. While the philosophy

:43:25.:43:33.

trains its attraction for many -- has lost its attraction for many, it

:43:34.:43:36.

has fallen out of fashion in the last few years. I will discuss his

:43:37.:43:40.

life and legacy but here are a few thoughts shared by him over the

:43:41.:43:44.

years in his own words, accompanied by his beloved jazz.

:43:45.:43:51.

Hello. The programme you are about to see is about national identity,

:43:52.:43:59.

and the importance of national identity in giving us a sense of who

:44:00.:44:04.

we are and where we belong. British nurse was coded racially. You didn't

:44:05.:44:11.

have two say white British. That is what it meant. I didn't think it is

:44:12.:44:18.

true, I think you can be you you are, you can be black, you can have

:44:19.:44:28.

come from a different route via the lonely relation on the Empire

:44:29.:44:31.

Windrush, through migration, into the inner city. This is a British

:44:32.:44:42.

history. We are in the centre of the creative culture of the society who

:44:43.:44:46.

have created in their myriad artforms from writing, poetry,

:44:47.:44:50.

dance, music, right through to wrap, created a new culture, a

:44:51.:44:55.

culture which in its variety and power astonishes. The eyes of

:44:56.:45:01.

young, white people in society, which is a mark, assign that they

:45:02.:45:08.

are the people of the future, and that needs organisation and funding.

:45:09.:45:12.

We have to go out and get it. It is ours.

:45:13.:45:17.

With this now is John Akomfrah, an Artisan Formica who knew him for

:45:18.:45:20.

more than 20 years and recently made a documentary about his life. How

:45:21.:45:28.

significant was his life? Very significant. He was really the last

:45:29.:45:36.

of that great group of intellectuals who came of age in their 50s, fund

:45:37.:45:44.

amount what we thought culture and identity politics would be --

:45:45.:45:49.

fundamentally. I'm talking about people like Richard Hoggart. He was

:45:50.:46:00.

in that class. Hugely significant. Specifically on multiculturalism, he

:46:01.:46:03.

is called the godfather of multiculturalism, can you explain

:46:04.:46:09.

what he was about that? This is not a term he would have

:46:10.:46:15.

approved of. But in some ways it applies to him, because one of the

:46:16.:46:22.

abiding feelings of his work was the attempt to try and speak to the id

:46:23.:46:31.

stern -- speak about the extent to which a multicultural state both of

:46:32.:46:43.

being and identity, is something that is uniquely British. For Stuart

:46:44.:46:48.

Hall, multiculturalism was his attempt to talk about 400, 500 year

:46:49.:46:53.

history of Britain and its engagement with several parts of the

:46:54.:47:00.

world. And to stress that the parts of the world that Britain went to,

:47:01.:47:06.

it made an impression with people where, and they have come here

:47:07.:47:12.

bringing not just something from outside, but something from the

:47:13.:47:16.

periphery of British life. In that sense, I would say, he is a

:47:17.:47:21.

godfather of multiculturalism. It is a theme in his work he returned to

:47:22.:47:24.

again and again, the periphery is the same as the centre, in some

:47:25.:47:31.

ways. What was he like as a person? He was the most generous person I

:47:32.:47:37.

have ever come across. I was 20 something, making my first film, we

:47:38.:47:45.

have no reason to come, he didn't know what Ron Adam, he came, he

:47:46.:47:53.

spent weeks talking to us about the film, the problem is, how to put it

:47:54.:48:01.

right. And he did this film for countless numbers of people. He was

:48:02.:48:04.

incredibly open and accessible, to thousands of people across the

:48:05.:48:09.

world. I am no exception. I have been taking the films I have made

:48:10.:48:13.

across the world. Literally everywhere I go, I have just come

:48:14.:48:18.

back from India, people come to me and say how was he? He did this on

:48:19.:48:22.

my thesis. He worked on this with my dissertation.

:48:23.:48:30.

Stewart Stewart Stewart Stewart Stuart

:48:31.:48:40.

Beyond that everything was OK. Well, that's almost it for tonight.

:48:41.:48:50.

Time for the papers. Well we start with the Scots Man. The Scottish

:48:51.:48:56.

Mail has Scottish counsels paying out -- councils paying out millions

:48:57.:49:02.

to motorists cars who have been damaged by potholes.

:49:03.:49:06.

That's it from us. Don't forget, that if women have got a majority on

:49:07.:49:12.

Newsnight, well there is hope for all of us. Good night, sisters!

:49:13.:49:17.

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