11/02/2014 Newsnight


11/02/2014

Politicians react to the floods, the RAF plane that costs too much and doesn't work properly, women bishops, and WW2 kamikaze pilots. With Jeremy Paxman.


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The floods are bad, getting worse and could get worse yet. As the

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water rises the politicians scramble to avoid accusations of

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indifference. The fear is that political fortunes will be made and

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lost in the water. Being seen to do nothing is not an option. You see in

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them films where people are hanging on by their fingertips, that is us

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at the moment. Not a single politician visiting flood victims

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can do much more than offer reassurance. What would happen if

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they just said, sorry, it is an act of God?

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Years behind schedule, way over budget and still not even working

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properly, why is Britain spending ?2. Five billion on an unproven new

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aircraft? And this:

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This is their big day, they prepare for their last flight. Japan seeks

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international protected status for the last letters of World War II

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kamikaze suicide bombers. We talk to one of them. TRANSLATION: I never

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look back with regret. The people who died did so willingly, if they

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were force I had would not collect this stuff. They must not be

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forgotten. What does a British sailor on the receiving end of

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suicide attacks think? It must be serious because prominent

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politicians of all parties are slopping around in wellies doing

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their best to look ais theive in the face of environmeal conditions which

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vividly demonstrate the limit of their powers. The floods even forced

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the Prime Minister to hold his first news conference for months today. He

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warned there might be worse to come but said money would be no object in

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the relief effort. We spent the day in Chertsey, Surrey. So it

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continues, swathes of the Thames Valley are now under water. The

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second time some residents have been flooded out this year. In the winter

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sun the bridge at Chertsey might look picturesques, but roads are

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closed off and dozens of houses cut off. Somewhere on the other side of

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this vast inland lake are the Parsons family. Where are you? The

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other side of the bridge on the south side of the river, they closed

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that off. You won't get across Chertsey scam bridge. Not at the

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moment. You won't get across that. They called the BBC today to say the

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media are ignoring their part of the world. We set out to find them.

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River levels here are well above all-time records, the next 48 hours

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will be critical. So this is the back garden then? This is the back

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garden. There is the other pump, pumping. On our way we run into this

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man, in his 70s, working nonstop and still smiling after just an hour's

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sleep. Two pumps and dozens of sandbags are now the only things

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keeping the River Thames from his kitchen. You see in films where

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people are hanging on by their fingertips, that is us at the

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moment. We're just hoping we can get through it, that's all. It has been

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a very stressful time. We're doing all we can. We have had the fire

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brigade come down, the army come down and the police. But we can't do

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no more. A few doors down the staff at the local garage are bailing out.

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Flooding here has damaged machinery and chased away customers. How much

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do you think this will cost the business? Well, apart from the work

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we are losing I think this will cost about ?15,000-?20,000 minimum, by

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the time we have everything repaired. You better hope you are

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insured? That is something we have to look into. Hopefully there should

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be something there. At the moment we are looking at quite a bit. Then at

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the end of the road two new rivers collide, the current is too much to

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wade through, we hitch a lift from a four X four. Best of luck. So we

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have just been given a lift across that road which you can't walk down

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at the moment. We made it to Doreen's, who we spoke to her on the

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phone. This is her daughter's house, they are own house is down here.

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Doreen? Hello The house is still dry at the moment, but the river is a

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few inches off the electrical supply, if it hits that they will

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have to move out. We never knew, we knew we were near the Thames, but we

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were told at that point the last time it flooded was 1947. People

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will say you have a house next to rave that is the risk you take? That

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is fine, we acknowledge, that you know. It is near a river, this is

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not just near the river it is the water table and it is coming down

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from the mountains and like a snowball effect really. And nobody

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expects this really. We head back across the bridge as the river

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continues to rise. For some it is too late. In a house backing on to

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the river, the Smith family is moving out as the army moves in. We

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have kids from 16-8 months old. All stressed in their own way. A series

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of new storms are make their way across the Atlantic, the people

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living in this part of England will hope to miss the worse worst of it

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and hope for cleaner skies. Ronald Regan said the scariest words

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were "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help", David Cameron and

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others were out to disprove that maxim today.

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You will have seen a lot of VIP wellies if you have been anywhere

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near the floods this week. There was a time not so long ago when those

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living along the Thames Valley or the south west of England could open

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their door without bumping into a party leader. Those times are long

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gone. Now the politicians have turned up they are getting an

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earful. As Sky News captured on camera. What will it take for you to

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understand we are seriously in need, do I need to take you right down to

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the end where we need people. Do I need to do that, I'm asking you,

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what do we we need to do? Politically the water is now the

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only game in town, and today in view of worsening weather the Prime

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Minister cancelled next week's trip to the Middle East and said money

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would be no object to Britain's recovery from the floods. A lesson

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learned perhaps from 2007 when, with his own constituency under water he

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was in Rwanda. This time round a whistle stop tour of all the worst

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affected areas so he could see the damage and the problems firsthand.

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Berkshire has, to my calculations, seen at least three politicians in

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the last 24 hours. The army has now been moved in to help. There is

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anger from locals this may be flash-in-the-pan interest, but they

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are British and mostly they are just getting on with things. The quiet

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stoicism of the residents, something at odds with the political frenzy we

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have seen over the past few days. The prime ministerial time devoted

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to these floods has been substantial. David Cameron has been

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out and around for some 48 hours now. We hear there are more trips to

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come. Politically he knows how sensitive this territory is. He

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can't afford to hear dark mummurings of Catriona, the crisis that brought

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President Bush to his knees. This image of George Bush staring

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down at the devastation shows him detatched from the suffering. It is

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the kind of mistake David Cameron can't afford to make. This evening

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he gave his first Downing Street press conference for 238 days.

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Emily? REPORTER: We have seen a frenzy of political visitations to

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the flood plains in the last couple of days. Do you accept you recognise

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the seriousness of this problem too late? I think the visits do matter.

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We should be co-ordinated with the emergency services so we are not in

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any way getting in the way of their work. So I repeated my question, had

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he recognised the seriousness of the situation too late? I don't think

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so. Because Cobra was stood up straight after Christmas with the

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first floods, and I think what has become more and more apparent is the

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persistence of this bad weather. Remember weebles wobble but they

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don't fall down? That is how the blame game is working so far. Eric

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Pickles blames Chris Smith, Owen Patterson blamed Chris Smith, then

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the underinvolvement, today the Environment Agency workers were

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praised but not their head, Chris Smith. This is not a time for people

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to leave their posts but for people to knuckle down and get on with the

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important work of running their organisations and departments that

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they have do. You don't need a degree in semi-otics to suspect that

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long-term that is no ringing endorsement.

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The fine line for leaders between showing their involvement, their

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concern and making themselves overly, personally associated with

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the cause that is produce pictures like this day after day after day.

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As a former presidential adviser once said, "never let a certificate

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crisis go to waste, but where there is flooding it is all too easy to

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get into deep water". With us now is Anne McIntosh the

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Conservative Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

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committee. And Ben Bradshaw, the Labour MP and cabinet minister in

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Gordon Brown's Government. What do you make of the fact that the

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Government is being blamed for a lot of this? I don't think the

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Government is being blamed. As the Prime Minister said I think we have

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all got to come together. We had flooding, not on this scale last

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year. But what those who have been flooded and those who live in fear

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of being flooded are wanting to see is everybody to come together. And I

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think just praise the volunteers, the emergency service, the military

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who are out there. Yes, the Government can give leadership, I

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would say the Government have shown leadership throughout. And have now

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brought in the military. But it is very difficult to pump the water out

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of such a vast area when there is nowhere to pump the water too. To.

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That is fair point, it is an act of God? We have had the wettest winter

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for a very long time. I welcome the new urgency that the Government

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seems to be displaying. I welcome the new language David Cameron

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using, that he will give all the money needed. However, I think we

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need to judge them on their delivery. We had floods in the south

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west a year a we were promised money after that to improve our rail

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resilience among other things, that money hasn't materialised. People

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are justified in asking those questions, and also about the

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overall Government strategy when it comes to flood defence, funding of

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flood defence and funding of resilience against climate change.

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Your own committee did worry about the impact of cuts on the

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Environment Agency, isn't that correct? I just think there is a lot

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of confusion, and a great deal of obfuscation over what the money is

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there for. Everybody understands what money is being spent on

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physical flood defences, we are trying to get to the bottom of what

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money is being spent on maintenance and revenue. I'm a big fan of

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drainage boards in non-flood times, to actually keep the water channels

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running smoothly and we have the Slow The Flow Project that has

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protected the town of pickering in my own constituency. There is a lot

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you can do. This money argument is a hard one for you guys in the

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opposition to make, given today that David Cameron said money is no

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object? That is great, but let's see the delivery. He has said this

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before, we were promised money after last year's floods that was not

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delivered in the south west. I'm welcoming what he said today. I

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welcome the new urgency, I hope that leads to a complete reassessment of

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how we deal with the threats from climate change and the resilience of

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the transport infrastructure and floods defences. I think flood

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defences were cut significantly when this Government came to power. We

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had the major floods of 2007, we have the Pitt Review and we don't

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need another public inquiry or review, we need the recommendations

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implemented. The point is the flood defences held this time the flood

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defences held probably now we will need to see whether they need

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substantial repair. It is the day-to-day regular maintenance of

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major and minor water courses that can prevent silt forming and banks

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being full of vegetation so the water doesn't flow away. What is

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clear this time is we have had every type of flooding, we have had

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coastal flooding, tidal surges, river flooding, we have now had

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ground water flooding in the Thames. Everything is being chucked at us.

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It is covering such a large part of the country, it is literally all

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hands on deck. Literally all hands on deck? Volunteer, emergency

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services and the military. And yet you see the Daily Mail saying money

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should be taken away from the Department of International

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Development because there is such a shortage of help for people at home?

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That is a very popular argument. Can I just say, if you allowed the

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drainage boards to keep the money they are currently putting into the

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Environment Agency in Somerset, East Anglia and in North Yorkshire, if

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they were allowed to do the work themselves, if the Environment

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Agency then could do what they are good at which is doing the main

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flood defences, then actually I think we would be in a much better

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place than what we're currently doing which is not dredging between

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floods. It is interesting to hear someone from your party talking

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about "if we could do that" and "if we can do the other", the Government

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can do it can't they? I'm not trying to enter into a blame culture here.

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But dredging was dropped mid-2000s. You could have started it again? The

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Government are doing seven pilot schemes tie low the landowners to do

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the dredging on their own land. You can do what you like in Government?

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This is what we are doing, I believe we can go back to that. It is not

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just about dredging, and Anne knows a lot of places dredging wouldn't

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work. This is a strategic response to the fragility of our

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infrastructure and country as a result of increased extreme weather

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events due to climb mat change. Until the Government grasp that we

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are not going to have a proper way of addressing the problem. You know

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how it look, people see a couple of politicians beginning to score

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points off one another over events which neither of them could properly

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control? I hope we're not scoring points. I hope that we are trying to

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edge towards a serious debate about what we need to do in the long-term

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to address some of the problems that have caused what is happening now.

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What we have seen today is, as the Prime Minister said, the country and

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the party is coming together for the good of those who have been flooded.

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What we are talking about is a long-term solution. One of the

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reasons that people are slopping around up to their oxters in water

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is there hasn't been the money to improve flood defences. This is not

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a problem that affects part of the Ministry of Defence. Tonight

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Newsnight can reveal that Britain is about to spend ?2. 5 billion buying

:16:27.:16:32.

some fighter bombers for the Navy, encouraged by the man who used to be

:16:33.:16:35.

the head of the Royal Navy, and now earns a tidy sum from the company

:16:36.:16:38.

making the planes. We have more, explain? This is huge

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for the Royal Navy, they have pinned their future, to a large measure, on

:16:44.:16:50.

the future of these two carriers. ?6 bill I don't know-plus to build them

:16:51.:16:54.

what will -- billion to build them and what will they fly off? They

:16:55.:17:01.

have really only one choice, this F-35, we were expecting the first

:17:02.:17:04.

production order to come this week, for various reasons to do with

:17:05.:17:08.

Government schedule and contractual negotiations it hasn't. We have been

:17:09.:17:21.

finding out what it will consist of. The F-35, the biggest defence

:17:22.:17:25.

project. Britain is about to commit itself fully to its first production

:17:26.:17:29.

aircraft. Along with the capability to land vertically, fly stealthily,

:17:30.:17:36.

and combine sensors to the latest weapons has come delay, and a

:17:37.:17:41.

trillion dollar global price tag. In Britain the Royal Navy has pinned

:17:42.:17:45.

its future on the crane, and the aircraft carriers that will launch

:17:46.:17:49.

it. There is so much riding on the F-35 for Britain, it is going to

:17:50.:17:54.

replace the Harrier and the tornado. It is central to the future of the

:17:55.:17:58.

Royal Navy and the military Aerospace sector of the economy. And

:17:59.:18:03.

yet, the programme has been plaged by development problems, it is years

:18:04.:18:10.

later into service, and the eventual cost to the UK is only just becoming

:18:11.:18:17.

clear. As head of the Navy, Admiral Jonathan Band threatened to resign

:18:18.:18:22.

if the new aircraft carriers weren't built. Now he's with the F-35's

:18:23.:18:28.

makers, delighted that his dream is about to be realised. A production

:18:29.:18:33.

order for the F-35 for me is an exciting moment. We are now by the

:18:34.:18:38.

end of the decade have a credible carrier air capability which this

:18:39.:18:43.

country can deploy. Importantly the current debate we have had and we

:18:44.:18:45.

have seen about whether we're still up for the game in the UK, and

:18:46.:18:51.

whether we are a serious player, with carrier air we certainly are.

:18:52.:18:56.

Is that status? It is more than status, it is capability. There is a

:18:57.:19:02.

status, obviously, in having these capabilities. But there is an

:19:03.:19:06.

operational confidence in having operational confidence in deploying

:19:07.:19:09.

them, it is the credibility that ownership of that gives you.

:19:10.:19:16.

Britain's F-35s were first meant to enter service in 2012, that is now

:19:17.:19:23.

slated for 2018. With 8. 4 million lines of software code, it is the

:19:24.:19:28.

most sophisticated plane ever made. Last year the Pentagon estimated

:19:29.:19:35.

that only 2% of that soft care -- software fully met its standards.

:19:36.:19:40.

The biggest outstanding problem is block 2-B software, vital for

:19:41.:19:46.

missile, radars and combat systems. Critics in Washington argue it will

:19:47.:19:49.

never work proper low. . As an air-to-air fighter it is a

:19:50.:19:59.

target, not a fighter. As an air-to-ground bomber its range and

:20:00.:20:04.

payload are very modest. So far this aeroplane is not working as

:20:05.:20:09.

advertised. It is almost a decade behind its initial schedule. Even if

:20:10.:20:18.

it performs up to all of its performance promise, the design is

:20:19.:20:22.

so modest it will still be a huge disappointment. The Pentagon and the

:20:23.:20:26.

manufacturers insist early snags have been solved, and testing

:20:27.:20:31.

proceeds apace. The aircraft has gone to sea too, part of a plan to

:20:32.:20:36.

get it into service with the US Marines late next year. But even if

:20:37.:20:40.

that deadline is met, will the aircraft be capable of much more and

:20:41.:20:50.

take off and nding. Trying to look at all the mission profiles from the

:20:51.:20:58.

Navy and marine corp, as well as the British, Italian, Israeli, South

:20:59.:21:01.

Korean requirement, all these different air forces have their own

:21:02.:21:05.

say because they put money in. It lip crease the complexity. As for

:21:06.:21:11.

the price tag, Britain's first four planes will cost $95 million, or ?58

:21:12.:21:19.

million. The price of buying aircraft with spares and an initial

:21:20.:21:24.

manufacturers service package is much higher. The Pentagon estimate

:21:25.:21:34.

is $253 million, or ?154 million per plane. We can reveal that Britain

:21:35.:21:40.

will pay about ?2. 5 billion for the first 14 aircraft, the initial

:21:41.:21:46.

support package and maintenance ma sillties for the -- facilities, for

:21:47.:21:51.

the future fleet. Little wonder that a cost-minded Defence Secretary is

:21:52.:21:55.

moving gingerly, ordering the first 14. Or that the planes' champions

:21:56.:22:02.

insist that an eventual buy of 48, suggested by MoD, just isn't enough.

:22:03.:22:07.

If we are going to continue to have one aircraft carrier available. 24/7

:22:08.:22:16.

and 365. And put as much capability as that deck size will give u 48

:22:17.:22:24.

aeroplanes won't be enough. My estimation is we will buy well north

:22:25.:22:29.

of that. The squadron is meant to be in play in 2018 and operational on

:22:30.:22:33.

the carrier in 2020. That may be achievable. But to get a fully

:22:34.:22:37.

functioning aircraft with the whole array of RAF weapons working on it

:22:38.:22:42.

will take longer. That could be a decade from now, even on the more

:22:43.:22:46.

optimistic projections that we have been given. Political and industrial

:22:47.:22:55.

logic him -- militates in favour of committing now. For the F-35 will

:22:56.:23:00.

sustain thousands of high-tech UK jobs. But some other partners are

:23:01.:23:06.

still delaying, waiting for costs to come down and the plane to meet its

:23:07.:23:11.

performance targets. The combat systems are not mature. If you look

:23:12.:23:17.

at Australia and Canada, long-term partners in the F-35 programme, both

:23:18.:23:23.

deciding to go for an interim buy, in the case of Australia, F-18

:23:24.:23:29.

super-hornet, to keep them tidied over through the capability gap, and

:23:30.:23:34.

then intend to purchase F-35 probably ten years down the line. So

:23:35.:23:40.

far Britain has only pledged to buy one third of the F-35s it once said

:23:41.:23:47.

it wanted. This country's commitment remains tentative, due to worries

:23:48.:23:52.

about cost and performance. But with orders expected any day, it is a

:23:53.:23:57.

commitment about to become irrevocable.

:23:58.:24:00.

Have we got this straight Mark, this country is paying ?2. 5 billion for

:24:01.:24:06.

handful of planes which have not yet been properly proved and promoted to

:24:07.:24:11.

us, to man we paid an Admiral's society and now works for the

:24:12.:24:15.

manufacturers. Is that right? They have got themselves into the

:24:16.:24:19.

position where this is the only aircraft they can put on these huge

:24:20.:24:22.

ships, they are committed to the huge ships. The ?2. 5 billion

:24:23.:24:27.

includes quite a lot more than 14 planes. Certain long lead items for

:24:28.:24:32.

other aircraft, maintenance spares and all the rest of it. This will be

:24:33.:24:40.

extremely important aircraft and expensive, and you wonder about the

:24:41.:24:45.

political courage that would need to happen to send them into battle with

:24:46.:24:52.

the limited weapon fix. Is there a concern about how this will look?

:24:53.:24:56.

There is a concern, they have considered the wider ramifications.

:24:57.:25:01.

The have been bitter interservice battles over the years about the

:25:02.:25:05.

carriers and aircraft. I put earlier today to the Defence Secretary the

:25:06.:25:08.

point that it could be hard to justify this in a time of austerity.

:25:09.:25:15.

Yes, this is an expensive aeroplane, we knew it would be an expensive

:25:16.:25:22.

aeroplane, it comes an incredible capability. The world's most

:25:23.:25:28.

sophisticated aircraft, with stealth capability. Able to penetrate enemy

:25:29.:25:34.

defences without with very little radar signature. It makes it a verse

:25:35.:25:38.

style piece of equipment. It will provide a back bone to our air

:25:39.:25:46.

forces, including our carrier projection for many years to come.

:25:47.:25:50.

How worried are you that this thing might not work as advertised, it

:25:51.:25:54.

might take longer to get it works? I'm not worried. I have looked at

:25:55.:25:58.

this report and I have looked at last year's report and previous

:25:59.:26:05.

years report These reports have to be understood in context. This is a

:26:06.:26:09.

complex project and identifying issues in the development of the

:26:10.:26:13.

aircraft that in the overwhelming majority of cases are already well

:26:14.:26:17.

known about, well established and for which mitigation or resolution

:26:18.:26:22.

strategies are already under way. Will it enter service as a fully

:26:23.:26:27.

combat-capable aircraft. We understand many of the most capable

:26:28.:26:32.

weapons the RAF has will not be integrated on to the aircraft by

:26:33.:26:38.

2018, even 2020? Well by 2020, when we expect to declare an initial

:26:39.:26:44.

operating capability, we will have a comprehensive weapons fit. Now I

:26:45.:26:49.

can't tell you at the moment, because we're still in negotiation

:26:50.:26:52.

and this requires agreement of partners across the project, whether

:26:53.:26:58.

for all purposes we will at that stage be using specific UK weapons

:26:59.:27:04.

or whether for some functions we may be using US weapons to be replaced

:27:05.:27:09.

at later stage in the aircraft's development by dedicated UK weapons.

:27:10.:27:13.

But the capabilities will be there, delivered by one or other of the

:27:14.:27:18.

weapons systems. When you look at the risks involved, isn't there an

:27:19.:27:23.

argument for waiting. Now you would like me to wait to order the jets

:27:24.:27:26.

for the carrier, so that you can then run a headline that says

:27:27.:27:30.

carriers have no jets to fly off them. I'm very clear that we have

:27:31.:27:36.

invested, the British taxpayer has investmented over ?6 -- invested

:27:37.:27:40.

over ?6 billion in aircraft carriers. My job is to get the

:27:41.:27:43.

aircraft flying and operating from them, as quickly as we can so that

:27:44.:27:48.

this huge additional capability that we will have with these carriers and

:27:49.:27:53.

Joint Strike Fighter can be available and deployable as soon as

:27:54.:28:02.

possible. T decade's long soap opera in which the Church of England

:28:03.:28:06.

decides whether women are capable of spiritual leadership, one of the

:28:07.:28:09.

rare examples of a soap opera continuing in production year after

:28:10.:28:13.

year, despite the fact that audiences are falling through the

:28:14.:28:16.

floor, staged a new episode today. The end is at last in sight,

:28:17.:28:20.

apparently. Sooner than many had predicted too. For a vote in the C

:28:21.:28:26.

of E General Synod will half the time the church has to spend

:28:27.:28:30.

consulting on whether having a pair of breasts disables you from having

:28:31.:28:37.

being a bishop. The first female bishop could be appointed by the end

:28:38.:28:41.

of the year. I'm joined by Rose Hudson-Wilkin, Chaplain to

:28:42.:28:49.

Parliament, andly thely thely the, director of the evangelical group

:28:50.:28:53.

Reform and member of the General Synod. Is that a fair assessment? I

:28:54.:29:00.

don't think I would say open opera, but I will let you have your day. It

:29:01.:29:04.

could be by the end of the year? I believe in miracles, who knows. Do

:29:05.:29:08.

you think it will be by the end of the year? It could do, but we have

:29:09.:29:13.

to wait for the diocese to vote, we have to wait for Synod to vote, I

:29:14.:29:18.

wouldn't like to put a bet on it. It has stopped the opponents dragging

:29:19.:29:23.

this out interminably, hasn't it? I don't think the opponents have been

:29:24.:29:27.

dragging it out interminably, I think there has been a desire for a

:29:28.:29:31.

very long time for us to find a solution, which means the Church of

:29:32.:29:34.

England can remain a broad church that it has always been. It has been

:29:35.:29:38.

square pegs and round holes, which just does not fit together. And it

:29:39.:29:47.

has been going on for a very, very long time. Perhaps the end is nigh.

:29:48.:29:53.

The reality is the diocese spends a long time, already, discussing it,

:29:54.:30:01.

42 out of 44 dieies said -- diocese, said "yes". Even the two that didn't

:30:02.:30:07.

say "yes", the majority of people did want it. So you know, I'm

:30:08.:30:13.

delighted that we are finding a way through in this process to make it

:30:14.:30:19.

possible. Are you going to give up the ghost now? Absolutely not, the

:30:20.:30:22.

really important thing to remember is this is about theological

:30:23.:30:27.

conviction. It is about, for me I represent part of the church that's

:30:28.:30:30.

growing, we certainly don't see falling numbers, we are seeing our

:30:31.:30:33.

congregations growing, we are having to start new congregations in new

:30:34.:30:37.

churches, I don't think we are going anywhere. Aren't you a bit bored

:30:38.:30:40.

with the way the Church of England is just obsessed with sex and gender

:30:41.:30:46.

issues? I don't think the Church of England is obsessed by those things,

:30:47.:30:51.

personally we're onesed by Jesus Christ, you may only get us on to

:30:52.:30:55.

Newsnight to talk about sex and gender but we preach Christ week in

:30:56.:31:02.

week out. You genuinely see your congregations increasing?

:31:03.:31:05.

Absolutely, fantastic. The churches I represent, 30% of them have

:31:06.:31:08.

planted a new congregation or church in ten years. I don't belong to

:31:09.:31:14.

boxes that says I'm this tradition or that tradition, and I'm also

:31:15.:31:18.

seeing growth, the spirit is moving, is it really is moving. And I just

:31:19.:31:23.

think we have spent an enormous amount of time debating this issue,

:31:24.:31:29.

and it is about time that we move on to more important things. How much

:31:30.:31:34.

damage did the vote last time against women bishops do, do you

:31:35.:31:39.

think? Huge damage. The church looked absolutely ridiculous. It

:31:40.:31:45.

really did. It looked ridiculous, it looked irrelevant, I hope that we

:31:46.:31:49.

can redeem ourselves. How do you explain the fact that congregations

:31:50.:31:54.

seem to be growing where this doctrine of not having women Clergy

:31:55.:32:01.

and bishops is preached? Well, my experience in many places in this

:32:02.:32:05.

country and elsewhere is that very often the leadership of the church

:32:06.:32:10.

is the one that pushes this and the people in the congregation are not

:32:11.:32:18.

necessarily in tune with what the message is there, in terms of as she

:32:19.:32:24.

says we're preaching Jesus, but in terms of not having women in

:32:25.:32:28.

leadership it is not always the congregation that is pushing it. I

:32:29.:32:32.

think that is incredibly patronising tone to be hones. We are very

:32:33.:32:35.

lay-led in our church, certainly there are people within our church.

:32:36.:32:41.

Lay-led but not female-led. Why isn't she fit to be a bishop, she

:32:42.:32:48.

looks perfectly respectable? Not female-led. We have male and female

:32:49.:32:51.

leaders within our church. You do? But the final incumbent is a man.

:32:52.:32:56.

This is part of the, one of the nonsenses of the legislation that we

:32:57.:33:00.

have been looking at today, is that the canon also say that the women

:33:01.:33:03.

bishops are fathers in God, we can't change that. And personally I find

:33:04.:33:08.

it very difficult, Rose you can be many things, but I can't see you

:33:09.:33:12.

being a father? I think we're playing with words there, I really.

:33:13.:33:15.

Do I think, and I think that is irrelevant, we're all made in God's

:33:16.:33:19.

image, both male and female, if we're made in God's image then God

:33:20.:33:23.

is part of who we are, we are part of God. So that's not a problem for

:33:24.:33:27.

me. It really isn't a problem what people call me. I think God created

:33:28.:33:32.

us male and female and wonderfully, it is typical of the Church of

:33:33.:33:35.

England that just as the rest of society is recognising that men and

:33:36.:33:40.

women have different gifts and bring different things to the table and

:33:41.:33:42.

need to be used in different ways, the Church of England is flannel in

:33:43.:33:47.

the 60s burning bras and trying to be feminist. The church has always

:33:48.:33:52.

recognised that we come to the table with different roles, we are not

:33:53.:33:58.

trying to be men, we're not, I'm actually disturbed by what you have

:33:59.:34:00.

just said, it doesn't make any sense. I think the church is trying

:34:01.:34:07.

to live in this world, not in the past. We're going to leave it there.

:34:08.:34:12.

Thank you very much. There is a real spat going on in the Far East

:34:13.:34:16.

between Japan and China. The Japanese are trying to get a

:34:17.:34:20.

collection of letters from kamikaze pilot, included on a register of

:34:21.:34:27.

documents vital to history, with a cultural organisation. The register

:34:28.:34:30.

already includes such things as the diary of Anne Frank, and the Chinese

:34:31.:34:35.

believe that for Japan to try to get letters from suicide bombers

:34:36.:34:38.

included is to try to beautify aggression. Before we talk about it

:34:39.:34:50.

we report from Tokyo. What exactly are the kamikaze letters? What do

:34:51.:34:54.

they contain, and why are they so important that Japan wants them to

:34:55.:34:59.

be world heritage status? To try to find out I will see the man who

:35:00.:35:03.

started the letter collection, and who himself survived not one but two

:35:04.:35:10.

kamikaze missions. For thieves us who grew up after the war -- those

:35:11.:35:15.

of us who grew up after the war it is hard to comprehend the kamikaze,

:35:16.:35:23.

it has become synonymous with irrational and terrifying. They were

:35:24.:35:26.

formed in the last months of the war. Most of the pilots were between

:35:27.:35:30.

17-20 years old. Their job was simple, to slam their planes into as

:35:31.:35:35.

many allied ships as possible and to halt the invasion of Japan. (Greets

:35:36.:36:01.

in Japanese) This man was 19 when recruited into the special attack

:36:02.:36:05.

squadrons. Today the cheerful 89-year-old looks nothing like a

:36:06.:36:10.

fanatic. Why did he volunteer to die? TRANSLATION: Common sense says

:36:11.:36:16.

you only have one life, so why would you want to give it away like that?

:36:17.:36:20.

But at the same time all of us wanted to volunteer. You have to

:36:21.:36:25.

remember that was the time when we were being attacked by the American.

:36:26.:36:30.

Japan needed us to be warriors, to stop the invasion. Our minds were

:36:31.:36:35.

cement we had no -- were set, we had no doubts. On his first mission his

:36:36.:36:39.

engine broke down and he was forced to ditch. The second was called off

:36:40.:36:45.

because of bat weather. And so unlike so many of his comrades he

:36:46.:36:54.

survived. When you look back at all the people who died, doesn't it feel

:36:55.:37:06.

like a wasterades he survived. When you look back at all the people who

:37:07.:37:09.

died, doesn't it feel like a waste? TRANSLATION: I never look back with

:37:10.:37:12.

regret, the people who died did so willingly, that is why I collect

:37:13.:37:14.

because they were not forced. I have committed my life to maintaining

:37:15.:37:22.

their memory. In the late 1970s they began collecting letters and photos

:37:23.:37:26.

from the families of kamikaze pilots across Japan. Many like this one

:37:27.:37:30.

expressed pride in the coming sacrifice.

:37:31.:37:46.

But others expressed clear doubt. One young Lieutenant wrote:

:37:47.:38:08.

Close to an old airfield near his house in central Japan we came

:38:09.:38:15.

across this memorial to the kamikaze who flew from here. The names of

:38:16.:38:18.

those who died are carved on the back of the stone. There are dozens

:38:19.:38:22.

of memorials like this scattered across Japan. When I first came

:38:23.:38:27.

across one of these kamikaze memorials in Japan, I was taken

:38:28.:38:32.

aback. It felt like a shrine to fanaticism, to blind loyalty to the

:38:33.:38:41.

Emperor. So To some on the far right of politics in Japan the kamikaze

:38:42.:38:46.

are held up assen ideal of manhood. That is why the issue is potent

:38:47.:38:50.

today. To most Japanese it is not about glorifying Japan as military

:38:51.:38:54.

past, it is more about rembering the young men who sacrificed their

:38:55.:39:02.

livesselflessly to -- selflessly to defend their nation. The issue today

:39:03.:39:07.

is not what the men did many years a it is the inability of many in

:39:08.:39:10.

Japan, including at the highest levels of Government, to examine Hon

:39:11.:39:15.

least that dark episode in Japanese history. Giving the kamikaze letters

:39:16.:39:25.

world heritage status help that process or hinder it?

:39:26.:39:38.

We have have a sailor from the ships attacked by the kamikaze, and

:39:39.:39:44.

Yuichiro Nakajma, whose father was one of the kamikaze pilots. What was

:39:45.:39:48.

it like? You didn't face them unless you are a gunner on the weather

:39:49.:39:54.

decks. You were aboard the ship in your place of action. Your action

:39:55.:40:00.

stations. Which could be anywhere in the ship. And suddenly you heard on

:40:01.:40:10.

the pipe that kamikazes were in the area. The next thing you knew the

:40:11.:40:15.

guns were opening up and they were firing to shoot kamikazes, or hit

:40:16.:40:20.

them near enough to blow them off course. And then suddenly a big bang

:40:21.:40:27.

and they hit the ship. What did you imagine the pilot of such a plane

:40:28.:40:34.

was like? You couldn't imagine it. You could understand what they were

:40:35.:40:40.

doing, they were fanatics, and you know, that's all there was to it.

:40:41.:40:46.

You couldn't understand or I couldn't, as an ordinary person.

:40:47.:40:52.

They just had the guts to do it. Would you say your father was a

:40:53.:40:57.

fanatic? I wouldn't say so, I think he had very little choice. Japan was

:40:58.:41:03.

entering a desperate phase in the war. It was clearly obvious to those

:41:04.:41:08.

in command that the situation wasn't favourable. So as a military tactic,

:41:09.:41:13.

I think it was the wrong one to take. But they took the decision and

:41:14.:41:17.

educated their men in the way that they wanted to, so that they could

:41:18.:41:22.

justify these suicide missions as a valid means of attack. You better

:41:23.:41:26.

just explain how it was that your father is a kamikaze pilot and

:41:27.:41:31.

survived the war? He had been drafted from university, he had

:41:32.:41:36.

orders to prepare his aircraft, wait for command to take off with his

:41:37.:41:42.

squadron, on the tarmac, and the base commander in the meantime sent

:41:43.:41:48.

up a reconnaissance mission to see where the American fleet had come to

:41:49.:41:53.

in relation to Tokyo Bay. This aircraft had a faulty radio, but the

:41:54.:41:57.

commander had no other choice because there was no other aircraft

:41:58.:42:02.

to send. He told the engineer to fix the radio on board, the radio

:42:03.:42:05.

couldn't be fixed because neither radio communication came back nor

:42:06.:42:09.

the careful itself, it was found shot down after a few days. As a

:42:10.:42:14.

result my father's commander couldn't issue an order for my

:42:15.:42:18.

father to fly, which is how he found out that he wasn't going to go on

:42:19.:42:24.

this mission. We were just, they were young men? They were young men.

:42:25.:42:31.

Executing a desperate tactic in extreme circumstances? Japan by then

:42:32.:42:36.

knew they were losing the war. And they began to get more and more

:42:37.:42:40.

desperate and those were the sort of things that were happening in

:42:41.:42:45.

greater numbers. Some of the planes, the kamikaze planes had a job to

:42:46.:42:52.

fly, but once they got off they could easily hit the ship if they

:42:53.:42:56.

weren't blown off or shot down before they got to it. Once you come

:42:57.:43:01.

to that realisation though, that these were just young men, called up

:43:02.:43:06.

to fly these planes, country in desperate circumstances, and

:43:07.:43:09.

according to some of those letters we saw there, these men thought they

:43:10.:43:14.

were dying for their country. Does it make you feel differently about

:43:15.:43:24.

them? Not me personally. Why not? I couldn't, just couldn't understand

:43:25.:43:31.

how they could do it. The same thing is happening today with these

:43:32.:43:34.

children they are dressing-up and making them into bombs and they are

:43:35.:43:39.

walking into buildings in the Middle East. That's the sort of thing that

:43:40.:43:46.

they were doing. How do those children get to be like that, they

:43:47.:43:53.

know they are a bomb, they know they are going to be decimated and go

:43:54.:43:56.

off. These were extreme circumstances, you must have thought

:43:57.:44:02.

about this quite a bit. How do you answer a question like this,

:44:03.:44:07.

transferring it to Japan. Well I guess for desperate situations call

:44:08.:44:12.

for desperate measures. I'm in no way justifying the Imperial Army.

:44:13.:44:17.

You have said you thought it was completely wrong, you have said

:44:18.:44:22.

that. That raises the question whether it is appropriate these last

:44:23.:44:28.

letters from these kamikaze pilots do have the status on the UNESCO

:44:29.:44:34.

register? They represent the outpouring of humanity by these

:44:35.:44:41.

pilots who knew their fate and the next day two or three days time.

:44:42.:44:48.

They will be perishing in the sea. I think it is a great record, in no

:44:49.:44:54.

way, as you said, it is not a glorification of the war effort at

:44:55.:44:58.

all. It is more a record of what they felt in the last days of their

:44:59.:45:04.

lives, their love for their family, their belief that unless they did

:45:05.:45:08.

this terrible things may happen to those remaining in Japan. Therefore

:45:09.:45:13.

this was their mission. However wrong that mission might be. This is

:45:14.:45:16.

what they have been taught to believe in. And they were there,

:45:17.:45:29.

many case, without any choice. That is all for tonight. Spare a thought

:45:30.:45:32.

before you go for what is left of the rolling news anchorman who asked

:45:33.:45:36.

the actor, Samuel L Jackson, about the car advicement he had filmed --

:45:37.:45:44.

advertisment he had filmed. The piece was made by another black

:45:45.:45:49.

actor, Lawrence Fishburn. This is a short extract of what happened. I'm

:45:50.:45:53.

not Lawrence Fishburn. That was my fault I know that. We don't all

:45:54.:45:57.

lookalike, we may be all black and famous we all don't lookalike. There

:45:58.:46:03.

is more than one black guy doing a commercial. There is it is, no

:46:04.:46:07.

question about that. I'm the "what's in your wallet" black guy, he's the

:46:08.:46:15.

"credit card black guy", Morgan Freeman is the other guy. You won't

:46:16.:46:18.

confuse him. I have never done a McDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken

:46:19.:46:28.

advert. I know that is surprising! The

:46:29.:46:30.

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