18/02/2014 Newsnight


18/02/2014

Ukraine's riots. NHS computer privacy. John Humphrys on the problem with Wales. Why is Parliament yobbish? Copying Scott of the Antarctic. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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A The confrontation between a pro-Russian President and largely

:00:00.:00:10.

pro-western demonstrators in Ukraine, looks as if it has come to

:00:11.:00:14.

a head tonight. 14 people are reported dead. Thousands of police

:00:15.:00:19.

are on the streets tonight in the centre of Kiev, protestors' tents

:00:20.:00:24.

were set on fire, and there is predictions from Government

:00:25.:00:26.

politicians that the demonstrations will be snuffed out tonight. Things

:00:27.:00:31.

have already turned fatally violent. Can the country decide which way it

:00:32.:00:37.

faces without further loss of life. And this... Calm yourself, man! The

:00:38.:00:45.

lion must get back in its den! The public claim to hate all this

:00:46.:00:48.

shouting, why do politicians think it is so big and clever? Farewell

:00:49.:00:59.

Scott, for yo march leads only to death. Scott of the Antarctic gained

:01:00.:01:04.

an immortality by failing to be the first man to the south pole. Now

:01:05.:01:09.

another Britain has made exactly the same journey, we will ask Ben

:01:10.:01:19.

Saunders what was he trying to provek Ben Saunders what was he

:01:20.:01:24.

trying to prove? The drawn out couldn't frontation between the

:01:25.:01:27.

President of the Ukraine and the protesters on the streets of his

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capital intensified today and violence is on going. The police

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storming the main camp right now. These are live pictures. 14 people

:01:35.:01:40.

are said to have died there. There are fires on the roads into the city

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and the hero of the protestor, the former heavyweight boxer, Mr Klitko

:01:47.:01:54.

is off to see the President. The television channel reporting the

:01:55.:01:57.

protests has shut down. Quite how and why the conflict suddenly

:01:58.:02:02.

intensified seems still unclear. Joining us now live from Kiev is our

:02:03.:02:06.

correspondent David Stern, it's too dangerous to broadcast outside so

:02:07.:02:11.

let's have a talk to him in the studio.

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What exactly set all this off? It is difficult to say what exactly set it

:02:17.:02:22.

all off. The violence started early this morning, when protestors tried

:02:23.:02:28.

to march on parliament where deputies were meeting to try to find

:02:29.:02:31.

a resolution or way out of the crisis. But it very quickly

:02:32.:02:34.

escalated. I was out on the streets this morning, as it raged out of

:02:35.:02:41.

control, and in contrast to earlier clashes between riot police and

:02:42.:02:44.

protestors, this was in a number of places. It would break out in one

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spot and then break out in another spot. I saw protestors hurling

:02:50.:02:55.

petrol bombs, bricks that they had ripped up from the street and the

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police were returning fire with rubber bullets and stun grenades,

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the sound was deafening. The smell of acrid smoke from burning tyres

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and also from the teargas was everywhere. And then the violence

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continues this evening with the protestors hunkered down in

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Independence Square, that is their base of operation, it has been since

:03:19.:03:22.

the protests began three months ago. At one end of the square the

:03:23.:03:26.

protestors and the riot police are fighting again. The question is now

:03:27.:03:32.

what will happen, will this he is can late further and will the

:03:33.:03:36.

divisions between the Ukrainian protestors and the Government become

:03:37.:03:41.

even greater? And will it carry over into Ukraine society as a whole.

:03:42.:03:45.

When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a sense of

:03:46.:03:57.

this being an endAnd will it carry over into Ukraine society as a

:03:58.:03:59.

whole. When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a

:04:00.:04:02.

sense of this being an end came It is difficult to say, people are

:04:03.:04:08.

talking about Civil War. We are not there yet, the violence is

:04:09.:04:11.

concentrated in Kiev, we have seen clashes in other cities. For the

:04:12.:04:15.

most part it hasn't carried over into the countryside. But Civil War

:04:16.:04:20.

is a possibility. So as I say, there seems to be a head being reached now

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and a decisive moment of sorts. We will probably see more decisive

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moments further down the road as well. Thank you very much for

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joining us. Alan Little has been following the day's events. His

:04:33.:04:35.

report contains some disturbing images. It is not clear what tipped

:04:36.:04:45.

this long stand-off into open conflict. But the escalation when it

:04:46.:04:49.

came was sudden, dramatic and deadly. Tonight Independence Square,

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where anti-Government protestors have been camped, largely peacefully

:04:54.:04:58.

for week, is burning. What began as an attempt to keep Ukraine on the

:04:59.:05:02.

path to mainstream European democracy, even to European Union

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membership one day has descended dangerously now into open civil

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conflict. Protestors tore cobble stones from the streets, police,

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defensive fired teargas round, used water canon, and some say live

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rounds to try to gain control of the streets. TRANSLATION: I think today

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after all this the people will rise up for real. You must understand for

:05:30.:05:34.

people to really rise up what is needed. It lasted hours, as the

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violence tore through the heart of Kiev, it was clear lives were being

:05:41.:05:43.

lost. Three dead bodies lay in the street, three more in a building

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close to the parliament. Hundreds are reported injured. The sight of

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police officers retreating injured and in fear of their lives will

:05:50.:05:53.

inflame opinion among those Ukrainians who support the

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Government, at present Viktor Yanukovych. As many, especially in

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the Russian speaking south and east of the Ukraine do. Reports that

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policemen have been killed tonight will harden attitudes further. Many

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in Ukraine's Government and crucially in Russia see the protests

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as a criminal and even terrorist enterprise, supported by western

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Intelligence Services. Ukraine is tonight more polarised than it has

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been for years. TRANSLATION: In this situation leaders of the opposition

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should take all responsibility for everything that is happening today

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on the streets of Kiev. Over the past two days they themselves

:06:32.:06:36.

announced today's march, which grew into a military confrontation.

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Earlier it seemed tension was easing, protesters had even begun

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leaving occupied buildings in return for guarantee they wouldn't be

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prosecuted. But in parliament, opposition MPs trying to change the

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constitution rein in the power of the President found their efforts

:06:55.:06:57.

thwarted by the Government. Scuffles broke out, soon the conflict spilled

:06:58.:07:05.

on to the streets. TRANSLATION: President Yanukovych must turn his

:07:06.:07:09.

facts into parliament as required by the constitution, to vote for our

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document and start solving the political crisis within parliament

:07:13.:07:15.

and not in the streets with clashes, riot police and Special Forces.

:07:16.:07:22.

Protests began in November when President Yanukovych, who has always

:07:23.:07:25.

been backed by Russia, rejected a deal with the European Union, in

:07:26.:07:31.

favour of closer ties with Moscow. Pro-democracy activists, especially

:07:32.:07:34.

in Kiev and the west of the country, which feels itself closer to the

:07:35.:07:37.

traditions of central Europe, saw that as a betrayal of Ukraine's

:07:38.:07:44.

democratisation. And its progress to the European mainstream. The

:07:45.:07:47.

conflict started about European integration and the question whether

:07:48.:07:52.

Ukraine should go east or west, but the course of events it is in a way

:07:53.:08:00.

united Ukraines from the two -- Ukrainians against corruption and

:08:01.:08:04.

excessive use of force, right now we see a struggle between the ruling

:08:05.:08:09.

regime and the protestors for human rights. But Ukraine is a country

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pulled in opposite directions by its neighbours. The magnetic draw of the

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European destiny offered by the EU is countered by the gravitational

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pull of Moscow. And in future a Russian sphere of influence. In the

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long run the Ukraine must find way to reconcile these two impulses. But

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tonight, and urgently, the Government and the opposition must

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find a way to pull the country back from the violence into which that

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divide has tipped it. We're joined now from Kiev by the opposition MP,

:08:44.:08:52.

from the UDA party, and by the professor from Yale University

:08:53.:08:57.

talking to us from Vienna. Can you tell me please first off what is the

:08:58.:09:00.

feeling like on the streets tonight, what is actually happening there? It

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is a large scale attack on the Midan, the main camp of the

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protestors. The fires have been going for more than four hours. One

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of the police were boasting to the Russian side that Midan will be done

:09:24.:09:30.

in a few hours but they continue. Klitschko the leader of the

:09:31.:09:33.

opposition and another opposition leader went to meet Mr Yanukovych

:09:34.:09:37.

and try to achieve some kind of ceasefire. But they, as far as I

:09:38.:09:46.

know, are still not met by Yanukovych, it is a continuation of

:09:47.:09:52.

violence still. Professor snider, you have made a long study of this,

:09:53.:10:04.

what is this conflict really about? It is fundamentally about the rule

:10:05.:10:07.

of law and the desire to live in place that is not corrupt, a place

:10:08.:10:11.

where they know the children will be in school and they won't have to

:10:12.:10:14.

bribe people. That is what they mean by Europe. They believe, many

:10:15.:10:20.

Ukrainians and most believe they are ruled by a corrupt regime and

:10:21.:10:24.

enriched itself from them, and in the last few weeks used violence

:10:25.:10:28.

against them. That is what the conflict is fundamentally about. On

:10:29.:10:31.

both sides there are now other actors who are highly engaged. In

:10:32.:10:37.

the Russian case probably over engaged.engaged. , , to an outsider

:10:38.:10:41.

looks extremely serious. When you have scenes like this on the streets

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of a capital city, it looks very bad indeed. This is a defining moment,

:10:48.:10:53.

do you think, professor, in how this confrontation is going to be

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resolved? Well this is as bad as it has gotten. This is as bad as

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anything has been in Ukraine, since Ukraine became an independent state

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a quarter of a century ago. This is the worst moment of violence in this

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series of protests. This could still get worse. The problem with today's

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choice to use violence against the protestors is that it is going to

:11:17.:11:18.

put Yanukovych in a position where he may have to choose whether or not

:11:19.:11:22.

to double down. It is really unclear to me, as I think it is to most

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observers is what to do next. Do you use more violence or begin

:11:33.:11:36.

negotiations? This is as bad as it has gotten, but there are more

:11:37.:11:40.

turning points ahead of us. Is it possible to see a resolution of this

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crisis while the President stays in power? Well, we had all our hopes

:11:45.:11:51.

for quite a long time, but actually probably one of the core reasons

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that it came to that violence and that aggressive behaviour is because

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Yanukovych and his entourage tried to ignore people's demands. For

:12:06.:12:11.

three months in a row we saw he met no demands from the protesters. It

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was simple at the beginning, actually punishment of those police

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officers that beat innocent students on November 30th. Then freeing older

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people who were in detention for political reasons. And also the

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Government who did really poorly economically and actually stopped

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the European integration. Those three conditions were very simple to

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meet, but the Government wanted to continue on its own ways. It came to

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that point of violence. The BBC learned today that the

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National Health Service is postponing the implementation of a

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new computer database. The NHS has blown billions of duff computer

:13:05.:13:08.

systems before. This scheme is controversial because so many people

:13:09.:13:11.

are worried about the implications of plans to share treatment records.

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Possibly even with drug companies. The Information campaign to reassure

:13:18.:13:21.

people hasn't been a screaming success, with some polls showing

:13:22.:13:25.

four out of five doctors don't even understand how the thing would work.

:13:26.:13:33.

Joining me now is our chief correspondent, you are just starting

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here. There is a whiff of panic about this. This system was meant to

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get going in days. It was designed to suck out your GP records into a

:13:40.:13:44.

central database where most of that information would be anonymously

:13:45.:13:49.

held. But it could be in a useable way, analysed and potentially

:13:50.:13:53.

revolutionally for researchers and one day for drug companies to look

:13:54.:13:57.

at patterns of disease, public health and the like. There is a

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logic here because a similar system already exists for hospital, linking

:14:01.:14:04.

up hospitals and GP surgeries where the majority of care takes place

:14:05.:14:08.

makes sense. In recent days the volume of complaints h soared,

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anxiety about potential data breaches and privacy, probably the

:14:13.:14:16.

trickyist complaint of all is made by doctors, that frankly, huge

:14:17.:14:19.

numbers of their patients hadn't a clue about what was about to happen

:14:20.:14:23.

and they didn't want to detend fend it in front of them. -- defend it in

:14:24.:14:29.

front of them. Those millions of leaflets doesn't seem to make a

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difference, as they came through with a pizza menu most didn't

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understand it was going to make changes. Have you had one? As a

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straw poll of two, I haven't had one so neither you, 0%. Here to discuss

:14:42.:14:48.

these issues is the GP representative for NHS England. This

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isn't going to happen now immediately. Is it going to happen

:14:55.:14:58.

for sure in six months time? I would absolutely hope so. OK so there is

:14:59.:15:05.

nothing wrong with the policy it is a question of the failure to

:15:06.:15:08.

communicate properly? It is amazing that something that has the

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potential to transform the way we look after patients, something that

:15:13.:15:17.

has been signed up by the major patient charities in this country

:15:18.:15:21.

and one of the only parts of the Health and Social Care Bill that the

:15:22.:15:25.

RCGP agreed to is having such bad press. My sense is it is caught up

:15:26.:15:30.

in the age of mistrust, it is caught up in a lot of noise that's going on

:15:31.:15:35.

around it, such as the mistrust happening around Snowden, and

:15:36.:15:39.

actually it is something that is very positive that will help deliver

:15:40.:15:44.

better patient care and better health services. Why have you so

:15:45.:15:49.

singularly failed to communicate that to the public? There is an

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issue there, of course there is. There has been failure to

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communicate this. As I have said, if I was to back, to look at how we can

:15:57.:16:00.

do this again, which actually we are going to do, we need to have a

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relook at it, a relook at how we are going to inform the public of the

:16:05.:16:08.

benefits of this programme. And actually start working with some of

:16:09.:16:11.

the patient organisations that are concerned about this, to highlight

:16:12.:16:18.

the real benefits to call all all of us. You would admit you have messed

:16:19.:16:25.

up the communication? I do think there has been an issue, but dare I

:16:26.:16:30.

blame the press. Why blame the mess, we haven't had them, take a poll of

:16:31.:16:35.

all the technicians, I don't think anyone has any of these things?

:16:36.:16:40.

There is major newspapers saying that police are getting access and

:16:41.:16:43.

the information will be sold to insurance companies and for

:16:44.:16:45.

commercial companies. It is misinformation. Can you give a

:16:46.:16:51.

guarantee it will never be sold to insurance companies? It is illegal

:16:52.:16:54.

to sell it for commercial purposes. There is no chance of it going to

:16:55.:16:58.

drug companies? It depend what is they want, they can have access to

:16:59.:17:04.

data now, if a drug company puts in an appropriate research protocol,

:17:05.:17:08.

they have a legitimate reason to look at this. We are not talking

:17:09.:17:12.

about drug companies to do it and then to sell you drugs and drop on

:17:13.:17:16.

your doorstep a drug you don't want. My question is whether it could be

:17:17.:17:19.

sold to drug companies? It will not be sold to drug companies. If you

:17:20.:17:24.

ask would a drug company, could a drug company have a legitimate use

:17:25.:17:30.

for information in monitoring long-term medications of course.

:17:31.:17:33.

Private healthcare providers? They will not get access to this data.

:17:34.:17:39.

All of them? Again, if a private health company wants to put in a

:17:40.:17:42.

legitimate research protocol that goes through the ethical and legal

:17:43.:17:46.

framework that anybody else has to, then they may potentionally have it

:17:47.:17:50.

if they want to do something. Commercial entities will

:17:51.:17:53.

potentionally have access? Commercial entities will not have

:17:54.:17:57.

access to this data in order to start selling you products, to drop,

:17:58.:18:02.

as you mentioned with the pizza, to drop advertising and material on

:18:03.:18:06.

your desk. No that is you, you have done that? Neither would insurance

:18:07.:18:09.

companies, neither will the police. This is for legitimate reasons, for

:18:10.:18:14.

the first time in the history of the NHS we will bring together data that

:18:15.:18:20.

is collected by myself in the practice with hospital data. The

:18:21.:18:23.

other thing people are concerned about is precisely how easy it would

:18:24.:18:27.

be to identify them. David Davis has already cited one case he has his

:18:28.:18:31.

nose broken five times, matched that up, the number of people with

:18:32.:18:37.

five-times broken nose is not very many, 100 or so? Yes, if you want to

:18:38.:18:52.

take very... What about dip -- dyptheria vaccinations and dates? If

:18:53.:18:55.

you are asking that vaccination and your date of birth, again it would

:18:56.:19:01.

be very difficult. Will people's postcodes be disclosed? The way the

:19:02.:19:04.

information, as your report said, it will be sucked up into a central

:19:05.:19:09.

computer system, postcode, NHS number will be taken up into a

:19:10.:19:14.

centralised system, in order to link it with the data that we have

:19:15.:19:18.

already in hospitals. If you want to use it for research purpose, you

:19:19.:19:22.

will have to go through proper ethical and legal process, that data

:19:23.:19:27.

will not be entified. It will be what's called pseudo anonymised,

:19:28.:19:32.

scrambled up. The only way you will have it is scrambled up data. When

:19:33.:19:36.

you look in an organisation like the National Security Agency in the

:19:37.:19:41.

United States, the most highly classified secrets in the world and

:19:42.:19:45.

yet still man can get in there and publish them wherever he likes. We

:19:46.:19:50.

can't have any confidences in these assurances you are giving? You have

:19:51.:19:53.

had it for 25 years. Can you do a better job of keeping secrets than

:19:54.:19:57.

the National Security Agency? Fortunately it is not my job because

:19:58.:20:00.

I don't understand computers. But for 25 years there hasn't been a

:20:01.:20:05.

breach of information to the level that you have just been decribing in

:20:06.:20:09.

the national security office. Do you know how many serious data breaches

:20:10.:20:12.

there have been in the last two years? I have been told, I do know,

:20:13.:20:18.

it was on the front page of a major newspaper. What were you told? I

:20:19.:20:21.

think there was something like 2,000 day if I remember rightly. Two

:20:22.:20:28.

million a year? Two million start of 2011 and now? The vast majority of

:20:29.:20:34.

those, the NHS needs to keep up with the times, the vast majority were

:20:35.:20:38.

notes left on the back of cars, data stick, computers with information

:20:39.:20:45.

not encrypted, what this is about is a safe, secure, legally binding

:20:46.:20:49.

system held within the information centre which, as I have said up

:20:50.:20:52.

until now, has not had a data breach. What's wrong with Wales, if

:20:53.:21:01.

you wanted to keep a mouthful of teeth it wasn't a question you asked

:21:02.:21:04.

there about this time of night. Now the chances are you will find plenty

:21:05.:21:09.

Welsh people trying to give an answer. Wales is in trouble,

:21:10.:21:12.

particularly in education. As its ambitions have grown, its

:21:13.:21:16.

achievements have tumbled. A committee of the Welsh great and

:21:17.:21:20.

good reports very soon on whether the cure for the failures of the

:21:21.:21:23.

devolved Government of Wales is to give it more power. John Humphreys

:21:24.:21:30.

who began his journalistic career as a cub reporter on the Mabinogion has

:21:31.:21:43.

been back. A century ago Wales had two things

:21:44.:21:46.

in abundance, coal and confidence. The one a consequence of the other.

:21:47.:21:50.

This port in Cardiff exported more coal than any other port in the

:21:51.:21:54.

world. It came from the Welsh valleys, just north of here. Every

:21:55.:21:59.

other village pretty much had its own colliery. Now they have gone.

:22:00.:22:05.

And with the coal has gone much of that confidence. The economy was

:22:06.:22:16.

devastated. And yet, what you won't find in

:22:17.:22:20.

Wales is many people had amenting the good old days. Because they

:22:21.:22:27.

weren't good. Too many miners were killed in accidents, far too many

:22:28.:22:32.

died slow deaths from the dust in their links. Promises were made when

:22:33.:22:38.

the pits closed and the miners' jobs went with them, there would be new

:22:39.:22:45.

jobs. But a town like Merthyr, built on coal and iron and once the

:22:46.:22:49.

richest town in Wales, has gone through some terrible times and is

:22:50.:22:53.

still in a bad way. And what has devolution done for Merthyr and for

:22:54.:23:09.

Wales? (Children speak in Welsh a welcome) The Welsh heritage at least

:23:10.:23:16.

as far as mining is concerned has goner? I think it is a shame. You

:23:17.:23:20.

want your boy to go down the pit, I bet you wouldn't? No, but I think

:23:21.:23:26.

there has been a loss to the valleys with a lot of self-respect and

:23:27.:23:31.

industry has gone. It is part of our culture and heritage, it is part of

:23:32.:23:35.

our identity. If you speak to some people in Merthyr and in the

:23:36.:23:38.

concerning valleys, they have lost a sense of identity. There is a loss

:23:39.:23:45.

because there aren't the stilled jobs they want to do. Jane's son is

:23:46.:23:52.

at this school in Merthyr, a lovely little school doing well, but there

:23:53.:23:58.

are many struggling. A recent OECD report found that Welsh education

:23:59.:24:05.

had crashed down the PISA international league table, way

:24:06.:24:07.

behind the rest of the UK in reading, maths and science. School

:24:08.:24:14.

inspections in Wales found that one in four secondary schools were

:24:15.:24:19.

unsatisfactory. And many blamed the changes brought in by the first

:24:20.:24:23.

devolved Government 15 years ago, led by Labour ever since. At one

:24:24.:24:31.

time we, I include myself in this, were immensely proud of what was

:24:32.:24:35.

happening in schools throughout Wales. After deaf illusion what? I

:24:36.:24:43.

think -- after devolution, what? When the Government came in they

:24:44.:24:47.

were optimistic about what could be achieved in Wales. We have had

:24:48.:24:52.

success, in some schools they tended to abandon the direct teaching of

:24:53.:24:56.

phonics that we talked about earlier. I think that was perhaps

:24:57.:25:01.

one of the mistakes that people made at that time. During the years I

:25:02.:25:06.

think the Welsh Assembly has tried to produce a lot of initiatives.

:25:07.:25:10.

Sometimes they haven't always given them a chance to embed. They haven't

:25:11.:25:22.

always consulted with teachers at grassroots levels. We do have

:25:23.:25:25.

schools with high standards and the challenge, I feel, for the Welsh

:25:26.:25:29.

Assembly, to ensure that all schools improve and have that consistency in

:25:30.:25:33.

terms of the quality they provide for their children. The Welsh First

:25:34.:25:41.

Minister does not deny there are problems. What is wrong with he had

:25:42.:25:44.

cautious can you argue, can't you, that you judge a nation by its

:25:45.:25:48.

education, and judge its future by its education? We got rid of

:25:49.:25:52.

testing, we relied on teachers to assess children. I think we have to

:25:53.:25:56.

take another look at that. Because we know the teachers will assess

:25:57.:26:00.

children in a particular way, and they may be overdoing it. We need to

:26:01.:26:04.

make sure that teachers are able to benchmark their assessments in an

:26:05.:26:07.

objective fashion. I think there is something we do need to revisit.

:26:08.:26:12.

What isn't right is all our schools are bad, we have some excellent

:26:13.:26:15.

schools, but we need to make sure those at the bottom raise their

:26:16.:26:18.

standards to catch up. And that's why we have launched for example a

:26:19.:26:22.

scheme called Schools Challenge Wales, where the bottom 40 schools

:26:23.:26:26.

will receive money and sphere help them to catch up. Professor David

:26:27.:26:34.

Reynolds of Southampton University is an expert on education and

:26:35.:26:37.

advising the Welsh Government on how to improve its performance. In terms

:26:38.:26:45.

of Government and success of devolution and Wales how important

:26:46.:26:49.

is it? Vital, because an area where we have devolved powers, and if we

:26:50.:26:54.

wish for more powers we would need to be showing that we can exercise

:26:55.:27:07.

the present one as wellan exercise the present one as well. If you are

:27:08.:27:12.

looking at the PISA numbers and you are seeing Wales and 40, and you see

:27:13.:27:17.

Poland with cleverer kids for a third of the wages, the factory goes

:27:18.:27:25.

to Poland. Merthyr needs to attract business, nearly a third of the

:27:26.:27:28.

people work for the Government in one way or another. One was Kelly

:27:29.:27:31.

who lives with her husband and three children on this big housing estate,

:27:32.:27:35.

she lost her job last month, and they are husband has been looking

:27:36.:27:41.

for work for five years. What happened to Merthyr, I lived here

:27:42.:27:45.

many years ago admit lead and it was a very, at one point a very

:27:46.:27:51.

prosperous town? The factories that were keeping people in jobs have

:27:52.:27:56.

closed down and moved away. And the only proper industry around here now

:27:57.:28:03.

is retail. Unfortunately. There is no, apart from the meat factory. Not

:28:04.:28:12.

very nice jobs there? Not very nice jobs, and most of the people who

:28:13.:28:18.

work there are Portuguese and Polish because that company is run by a

:28:19.:28:21.

certain agency and they like to get the Portuguese and Polish in. Plus

:28:22.:28:25.

you know they come over here they want a job and they will take

:28:26.:28:29.

anything. And local people are not so keen on that. I don't know many

:28:30.:28:35.

people actually who work there. But yeah, the only real industry around

:28:36.:28:40.

here is retail. It is an odd thing in way, because retail to succeed

:28:41.:28:46.

needs customers and customers have to have money, there is no money

:28:47.:28:50.

because there is no jobs. Yes, it is a vicious circle. Do you have any

:28:51.:28:57.

thoughts about weather devolution -- whether devolution has made a

:28:58.:29:01.

difference. A significant difference to your lives? At the moment, with

:29:02.:29:05.

the state that Wales is in I don't think devolution is the way. I would

:29:06.:29:11.

love for Wales to be independent and I'm a nationalist through and

:29:12.:29:18.

through. But unfortunately I can see so many problems. My impression is

:29:19.:29:25.

that the Welsh are generally more enthusiastic about devolution than

:29:26.:29:29.

they were when I lived here as a young man. Many English speakers,

:29:30.:29:32.

the majority, of course, think there has been too much focus on promoting

:29:33.:29:36.

the Welsh language. But there is no denying it has been effective. I

:29:37.:29:40.

think the whole language and culture area I think is great success. And

:29:41.:29:45.

the paradox is we were a success there but we don't seem to be able

:29:46.:29:50.

to replicate that success so far. That's wonderful in lots of ways,

:29:51.:29:55.

but it is not going to make Wales a success on the world stage? No it is

:29:56.:30:01.

not. Develop ing a culture could lead into a country which is a theme

:30:02.:30:05.

park for other people to come visit. We don't want that. We want to be a

:30:06.:30:09.

country with culture, but a country with an industrial sector too.

:30:10.:30:13.

Because that would have to underpin the prospect of our people --

:30:14.:30:17.

prosperity of our people. Maybe the answer is to give the Welsh

:30:18.:30:20.

Government more power. The commission set up by London agreed

:30:21.:30:23.

with that. The question is how much more? You don't want independence,

:30:24.:30:26.

you don't even envisage the possibility of independence, but you

:30:27.:30:31.

do want more devolution, when does it stop? When does that process

:30:32.:30:37.

stop, what more do you want? What What we need in the UK, call it a

:30:38.:30:42.

constitutional convention to make sure that everybody what the

:30:43.:30:46.

destination is, so there is a common way of devolving power in the future

:30:47.:30:49.

so there is a proper place for England in the UK constitution,

:30:50.:30:53.

which doesn't really exist at the moment, and everything is lob sided

:30:54.:30:57.

at the moment. We need to make sure that changes in the future,

:30:58.:31:00.

regardless of the result in Scotland. Wales had to change, with

:31:01.:31:07.

or without devolution, the end of mining saw to that. But not

:31:08.:31:11.

everything is different. The valleys still, praise be, have their male

:31:12.:31:18.

voice choirs, like this one. And these MEP -- men are pretty

:31:19.:31:30.

sanguine, only one wanted independence and he was English.

:31:31.:31:33.

They want to get their schools right again and then we will see. Of the

:31:34.:31:41.

many aspects of modern politics that go down like a bucket of cold sick

:31:42.:31:46.

with the public, pre-eminent is the weekly bout of name-calling, jeering

:31:47.:31:51.

and finger-pointing and other juvenile behaviour that goes by the

:31:52.:31:54.

name of Prime Minister's Question Time. In his very first speech as

:31:55.:31:57.

Tory leader David Cameron attacked what he called "Punch and Judy

:31:58.:32:03.

politics", still he plays Mr Punch in politics each week and the

:32:04.:32:09.

Speaker still revels in his own part as the Policeman, coming up with his

:32:10.:32:15.

own lines telling MPs to "pipe down". The Speaker has written to

:32:16.:32:24.

parties to tell MPs to knock it off. Let me ask him this... . Eering and

:32:25.:32:39.

shouting) Quiet yourself. The hard-won

:32:40.:32:44.

credibility we wouldn't have if we listened to the muttering idiots

:32:45.:32:50.

sitting next to me. I have always found the hurly burly of Prime

:32:51.:32:54.

Minister's Questions one of the best ways of finding out what a

:32:55.:32:57.

politician is really like. Without that noisy House of Commons chamber

:32:58.:32:59.

would we know that the usually smooth and civil David Cameron has a

:33:00.:33:04.

slightly mean Flashman streak. Or that Ed Miliband can be wooden and

:33:05.:33:08.

dithery under pressure. But as entertaining as journalists in the

:33:09.:33:13.

press gallery find PMQs, those sitting in the public gallery are

:33:14.:33:17.

rather less enthusiastic. They think there is too much party political

:33:18.:33:20.

points scoring, it is too aggressive and doesn't always deal with the

:33:21.:33:24.

important issues facing the country. I guess they didn't let women into

:33:25.:33:28.

the Bullingdon club either, there we go. The House of Commons speaker,

:33:29.:33:36.

John Bercow is naturally unsettled by this, and calling for decorum

:33:37.:33:42.

rather than decible, less of the public school twitishness, but not

:33:43.:33:47.

quite a call for Trappist amongst. Personally I think that any move to

:33:48.:33:53.

make the Commons more like a monastery would be doing the public

:33:54.:33:57.

a disservice. Some of the worst decisions the parliament has made

:33:58.:34:00.

have been when the three parties cheerily nodded and agreed on an

:34:01.:34:05.

issue rather than dissecting a bad bill. The one thing worse than a

:34:06.:34:11.

passionate democracy would be a consensual and defer relation one.

:34:12.:34:15.

Winston Churchill saw this when he was urged by MPs to rebuild a bombed

:34:16.:34:20.

Commons with a circular chamber. He warned that he had seen many ardent

:34:21.:34:26.

and ernest parliaments destroyed by this system. But the former Cabinet

:34:27.:34:30.

Secretary was the only person he could see in an empty Select

:34:31.:34:34.

Committee hearing a few weeks ago. If the public want to see ernest

:34:35.:34:38.

lengthy debate parliament offers plenty of that. The problem is few

:34:39.:34:43.

people attend these sessions, as is the case in Congress in the states

:34:44.:34:53.

perhaps there isn't enough drama. Ed Miliband did try to tone things down

:34:54.:34:58.

at the start of this year, but his new consensual approach fell flat

:34:59.:35:02.

with his MPs looking far too somber. One of the problems is Conservative

:35:03.:35:05.

MPs have organised themselves to make as much noise as possible at

:35:06.:35:10.

PMQ, they are called the Q-Team, and include rowdy hecklers including the

:35:11.:35:17.

PPS and the Skills Minister. They were only responding to Labour

:35:18.:35:22.

heckler, the Shadow Justice Secretary, shadow leader of the

:35:23.:35:24.

house, Shadow Cabinet office minister and the shadow char. They

:35:25.:35:29.

are all -- Shadow Chancellor. They are all as bad as each other. But

:35:30.:35:41.

while PMQs is as much as stoking primal enthusiasm, like these masks,

:35:42.:35:46.

MPs could make it better. This is the one opportunity each week to

:35:47.:35:49.

hold the Prime Minister to account. Some of the backbenchers choose to

:35:50.:35:52.

waste their questions by sucks up to their boss in the vain hope of a

:35:53.:35:57.

promotion. Others choose to Colleagues who -- jeer colleagues.

:35:58.:36:04.

The Prime Minister could start leading by example if he wants

:36:05.:36:09.

things to change. You really are a very overexcitable individual, you

:36:10.:36:14.

need to write out 1,000 times, "I will behave myself at Prime

:36:15.:36:22.

Minister's Questions". . With us now to discuss all this is the

:36:23.:36:24.

Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and from Bristol the Liberal

:36:25.:36:33.

Democrat Tessa Munt. Are you embarrassed that this is what the

:36:34.:36:36.

public see of parliament? It is the bit they look at and join. They like

:36:37.:36:41.

Prime Minister's Questions and watch it far more than any other bit of

:36:42.:36:45.

parliament. They sadly don't listen to my long and worthy speeches.

:36:46.:36:51.

Tessa Munt, he has a point, it does at least bring parliament into the

:36:52.:36:55.

public eye? Yes it does, but for all the wrong reasons, I would say. I

:36:56.:36:58.

don't think that the playground of that particular political arena is

:36:59.:37:02.

very sensible at all. I think it is clear from the happen standard

:37:03.:37:09.

report -- Hansard report that the public think it is very good. You

:37:10.:37:14.

haven't a very good speaker at present that could be the

:37:15.:37:18.

explanation? We have a reforming speaker at present. It never crossed

:37:19.:37:21.

my mind when I was selected that there would never be a time when

:37:22.:37:25.

select committees are appointed rather than elected, which I was.

:37:26.:37:28.

There are a number of things he has done, and I suspect PMQs will be the

:37:29.:37:34.

last and next one, so. Is it a male thing, do you think, Jacob

:37:35.:37:38.

Rees-Mogg? I don't know, in the pictures that came up there were

:37:39.:37:42.

quite a number of lady MPs who also heckled. But I think it is actually

:37:43.:37:47.

a democratic thing. That people feel the points they are arguing about

:37:48.:37:52.

very strongly, they want to put them across forcefully. Ed Miliband

:37:53.:37:55.

thinks David Cameron should be... You don't believe that? I do. It is

:37:56.:38:03.

all you people who were in the Oxford Union, jeering, cheering? It

:38:04.:38:07.

is not. I fundamentally disagree, and actually the reason people enjoy

:38:08.:38:11.

this programme is because you are good at skewering politician, it

:38:12.:38:15.

makes politics exciting. Now you are doing the finger pointing? I do

:38:16.:38:21.

apologise. You go ahead. I don't call you any names? Well the Prime

:38:22.:38:25.

Minister very rarely calls people names. By and large it is questions

:38:26.:38:30.

about policy and they are forcefully held views that the opposition is

:38:31.:38:35.

challenging the Government about its economic, health and education

:38:36.:38:39.

policies. Those things are felt strongly. Politicians aren't

:38:40.:38:43.

entirely cynical operatives, they do actually believe in things and have

:38:44.:38:48.

principles. Why are you shaking your head, doesn't this apply to you? No,

:38:49.:38:53.

I think it is tosh, if you want to listen to people being held to

:38:54.:38:56.

account for their views and policies go to the ordinary question session

:38:57.:38:59.

that is take place at the beginning of every day in parliament. Prime

:39:00.:39:03.

Minister's Questions is just a complete charade, it is ludicrous

:39:04.:39:07.

behaviour, it is completely stupid. It is just like I guess a public

:39:08.:39:11.

school debating club or something. It is just rubbish that this holes

:39:12.:39:15.

the Prime Minister to account. There is all sorts of questions that if

:39:16.:39:21.

anyone mentions the word "Europe" or "one-nation" the whole place bursts

:39:22.:39:26.

into flames and everybody just, I don't know it is ridiculous. I have

:39:27.:39:29.

been in there and I have actually writen to the speaker on occasion,

:39:30.:39:34.

last year, when it just got completely ridiculous and people

:39:35.:39:38.

were being bullied. There is a savage undertone to some of this.

:39:39.:39:42.

Some people stand in the chamber to ask their questions and they are

:39:43.:39:46.

bullied relentlessly by the other side or people behind them or

:39:47.:39:50.

whatever. It is very unattractive to try to persuade people to go into

:39:51.:39:54.

politics if that is what they say they have to go through. Who are the

:39:55.:40:01.

worst offenders? Goodness me I wouldn't know, I couldn't name

:40:02.:40:05.

people. I expect that probably if you went back to the speakers tapes.

:40:06.:40:11.

If you care so much name some names? Well there was a comment last week

:40:12.:40:15.

wasn't there where somebody said it would be quite nice to have day in

:40:16.:40:20.

parliament where Mr Gov, he's name wasn't mentioned for some reason of

:40:21.:40:24.

behavioural. Apart from the Secretary of State for Education

:40:25.:40:27.

anybody else? I think there are people on every side. I think there

:40:28.:40:31.

are people who. I don't engage in this stuff. Even sainted Liberal

:40:32.:40:36.

Democrats? There might be, I don't engage in that and I have encouraged

:40:37.:40:40.

us not to do that. Let's have some names? There are people who are

:40:41.:40:45.

cloud and enthusiastic, I sit in front of those people. Who are

:40:46.:40:50.

there? I'm not going to mention them there are enough of them engage

:40:51.:40:53.

anything that. There are rumours that the whips sent out

:40:54.:41:01.

congratulatory texts to the major t parties about doing well done about

:41:02.:41:05.

the wall of sound. We are getting tittle tattle thirdhand of what is

:41:06.:41:12.

happening in different situationingses, and you have named

:41:13.:41:16.

Michael Gove and everything names him? We want to make sure that the

:41:17.:41:20.

issue of harrassment and bullying that takes place needs to be sorted

:41:21.:41:24.

out. It is for people to adjust their own behaviour. Frankly, I have

:41:25.:41:29.

been to a county council meeting earlier on this evening, if a town

:41:30.:41:33.

council behaved in that way they would be put in special measures. If

:41:34.:41:37.

we had children behavic like this in school they would be taken out and

:41:38.:41:41.

dealt with. Is there any chance of this changing? I hope not, it would

:41:42.:41:50.

be ghastly if the Commons were stopped. You wouldn't let children

:41:51.:41:55.

behave like this in class? Children in class are being taught things

:41:56.:41:58.

specifically and are meant to be learning. In the House of Commons we

:41:59.:42:01.

are challenging ideas and in the heat of debate some ideas and

:42:02.:42:04.

individuals fail. That's very important. Because we want a lead

:42:05.:42:09.

whore is tough enough to be able to cope with a few people Braing at

:42:10.:42:15.

him. It is not the end of the world. For God's sake look after our

:42:16.:42:20.

people, the last words written by Captain Robert Falcon Scott in his

:42:21.:42:23.

diary just before dying in Antarctica, retain their resonance

:42:24.:42:28.

after 100 years. Famously Captain Scott had set tout plant the British

:42:29.:42:32.

flag at the South Pole, discovered he was beaten by the Norwegians, and

:42:33.:42:37.

perished in the bitterist of bitter cold trying to walk 700 mimes back

:42:38.:42:45.

to the expedition baize. Now two Antarctic explorers have made the

:42:46.:42:50.

same journey, without the same dramatic consequences. One of them

:42:51.:42:54.

is here, Ben Saunders, why did he do it? One of the most bute of places

:42:55.:43:06.

on earth, Antarctica is not for the faint hearteded, temperatures can

:43:07.:43:12.

fall to minus 27 Celsius. And the distances are prodigious. In 1927

:43:13.:43:23.

Robert Falcon Scott took a hand-picked team to claim the pole

:43:24.:43:27.

for the British Empire. They were beaten to it and never completed the

:43:28.:43:31.

return journey, perishing a dozen miles short of their final food

:43:32.:43:36.

depot. In over 100 years since then, no-one has tried to repeat Scott's

:43:37.:43:50.

journey successfully until now. Ben Saunders prepared for ten years to

:43:51.:43:54.

follow in the footsteps of Scott's expedition. In October last year

:43:55.:43:59.

STHET off for the UK. Using the latest technology, including a

:44:00.:44:04.

specially designed satellite dish. They followed the route plotted by

:44:05.:44:08.

Scott and his name. Scott's team had to work in relays as they prepared a

:44:09.:44:12.

five-man unit for a final dash to the poll. Ott and his name. Scott's

:44:13.:44:23.

team had to work in relays as they prepared a five-man unit for a final

:44:24.:44:26.

dash to the poll. After finding out they had been beaten to the pole he

:44:27.:44:29.

wrote "the worst has happened, everything must go". Technology can

:44:30.:44:33.

do nothing to improve the weather for the new explorers. They were

:44:34.:44:38.

able to talk by satellite phone throughout their journey and blog

:44:39.:44:42.

about it. It still took 105 days on the ice. By the time the journey was

:44:43.:44:47.

over they had lost 20 kilos in weight each. Ben Saunders talked in

:44:48.:44:52.

his blog of sledges that never seemed to become lighter, rumbling

:44:53.:45:00.

stop mocks, home sickness, sleep deprivation, deep fatigue, and a

:45:01.:45:05.

land can a scale that defies comprehension. A scale that

:45:06.:45:09.

threatened at times to crush their spirits and cut early to exchaste

:45:10.:45:13.

their bodies. But a scale that left an impression on them that will stay

:45:14.:45:24.

for the rest of their livesst of their lives. The story of Captain

:45:25.:45:30.

Scott is wonderful and dramatic. People know it but would not choose

:45:31.:45:38.

to recreate it? I have still not got a response to that. We weren't

:45:39.:45:42.

exploring in the same sense as Scott were. We weren't drawing maps or

:45:43.:45:58.

anything like that The thing that fascinated about this is why wasn't

:45:59.:46:03.

the journey finished. Why wasn't it? It is a heck of a long way. Even

:46:04.:46:09.

nowadays. 700 mile walk? Even with vitamin see and solar panels and

:46:10.:46:15.

velcro and all these essentials, it is a journey still close to the

:46:16.:46:21.

limits of what happened. It is immensely gruelling and we saw some

:46:22.:46:26.

of the words you used to describe t and mentally pretty taxing? Very

:46:27.:46:38.

hard. I have been dragging shreds sleds for a lot of years. I

:46:39.:46:42.

underestimated how mentally tough it would be, especially within the

:46:43.:46:45.

weather was bad. Scott and his team were alone. You weren't in the sense

:46:46.:46:50.

that you had communications, does that make it easier or more

:46:51.:46:55.

difficult? It can be a double-edged sword, it was wonderful to be able

:46:56.:46:59.

to write. We had a blog, which we were sending back every day live

:47:00.:47:05.

from the tent. You saw the little laptop we had. Scott was the writer

:47:06.:47:10.

and it was Scott's diary that inspired me many years ago. They are

:47:11.:47:15.

fantastic? He was an amazing writer, very poignant and courageously

:47:16.:47:21.

towards the end. I'm not a photographer, film maker or artist,

:47:22.:47:25.

writing has been the way to share stories of this trip. It was

:47:26.:47:28.

wonderful to be able to tell that story as it unfolded in real time.

:47:29.:47:33.

The telephone is a different thing. Being able to phone my mum, who I

:47:34.:47:40.

think was picturing... Did you phone your mu Fairly regularly. You phoned

:47:41.:47:45.

her from the South Pole? I phoned her every few days. My mum imagined

:47:46.:47:50.

the 11-year-old schoolboy Ben in the Antarctic, packed lunch and lost in

:47:51.:47:54.

the blizzard. But she was worrying at times, I think. The phone is a

:47:55.:48:01.

double-edged sword, and of course we had a safety net. The knowledge that

:48:02.:48:07.

our suffering was entirely self-imposed was a hard thing to

:48:08.:48:10.

deal with at times. Scott never had the option of being airlifted out

:48:11.:48:14.

which we had all the time. We had to dial a number and make the suffering

:48:15.:48:19.

end. So in that sense it was a test. One final very quick question, why

:48:20.:48:23.

haven't you got a bigger beard? It was removed couple of days ago, I

:48:24.:48:28.

got fed one it, there was food and stuff going in it. That's it for

:48:29.:48:32.

tonight. We leave you with the news of the Lego Movie, which easily

:48:33.:48:38.

topped the film charts on its release this weekend, making the

:48:39.:48:43.

brick stars of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, we have learned that

:48:44.:48:50.

the sim somes are next on the road to Lego makeover.

:48:51.:48:52.

Whatever next. Next. Ever Any mist and murk will clear

:48:53.:49:12.

through the afternoon and beginning to break holes in the

:49:13.:49:13.

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