18/02/2014 Newsnight


Ukraine's riots. NHS computer privacy. John Humphrys on the problem with Wales. Why is Parliament yobbish? Copying Scott of the Antarctic. With Jeremy Paxman.

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A The confrontation between a pro-Russian President and largely


pro-western demonstrators in Ukraine, looks as if it has come to


a head tonight. 14 people are reported dead. Thousands of police


are on the streets tonight in the centre of Kiev, protestors' tents


were set on fire, and there is predictions from Government


politicians that the demonstrations will be snuffed out tonight. Things


have already turned fatally violent. Can the country decide which way it


faces without further loss of life. And this... Calm yourself, man! The


lion must get back in its den! The public claim to hate all this


shouting, why do politicians think it is so big and clever? Farewell


Scott, for yo march leads only to death. Scott of the Antarctic gained


an immortality by failing to be the first man to the south pole. Now


another Britain has made exactly the same journey, we will ask Ben


Saunders what was he trying to provek Ben Saunders what was he


trying to prove? The drawn out couldn't frontation between the


President of the Ukraine and the protesters on the streets of his


capital intensified today and violence is on going. The police


storming the main camp right now. These are live pictures. 14 people


are said to have died there. There are fires on the roads into the city


and the hero of the protestor, the former heavyweight boxer, Mr Klitko


is off to see the President. The television channel reporting the


protests has shut down. Quite how and why the conflict suddenly


intensified seems still unclear. Joining us now live from Kiev is our


correspondent David Stern, it's too dangerous to broadcast outside so


let's have a talk to him in the studio.


What exactly set all this off? It is difficult to say what exactly set it


all off. The violence started early this morning, when protestors tried


to march on parliament where deputies were meeting to try to find


a resolution or way out of the crisis. But it very quickly


escalated. I was out on the streets this morning, as it raged out of


control, and in contrast to earlier clashes between riot police and


protestors, this was in a number of places. It would break out in one


spot and then break out in another spot. I saw protestors hurling


petrol bombs, bricks that they had ripped up from the street and the


police were returning fire with rubber bullets and stun grenades,


the sound was deafening. The smell of acrid smoke from burning tyres


and also from the teargas was everywhere. And then the violence


continues this evening with the protestors hunkered down in


Independence Square, that is their base of operation, it has been since


the protests began three months ago. At one end of the square the


protestors and the riot police are fighting again. The question is now


what will happen, will this he is can late further and will the


divisions between the Ukrainian protestors and the Government become


even greater? And will it carry over into Ukraine society as a whole.


When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a sense of


this being an endAnd will it carry over into Ukraine society as a


whole. When you look at the scenes on the streets there, is there a


sense of this being an end came It is difficult to say, people are


talking about Civil War. We are not there yet, the violence is


concentrated in Kiev, we have seen clashes in other cities. For the


most part it hasn't carried over into the countryside. But Civil War


is a possibility. So as I say, there seems to be a head being reached now


and a decisive moment of sorts. We will probably see more decisive


moments further down the road as well. Thank you very much for


joining us. Alan Little has been following the day's events. His


report contains some disturbing images. It is not clear what tipped


this long stand-off into open conflict. But the escalation when it


came was sudden, dramatic and deadly. Tonight Independence Square,


where anti-Government protestors have been camped, largely peacefully


for week, is burning. What began as an attempt to keep Ukraine on the


path to mainstream European democracy, even to European Union


membership one day has descended dangerously now into open civil


conflict. Protestors tore cobble stones from the streets, police,


defensive fired teargas round, used water canon, and some say live


rounds to try to gain control of the streets. TRANSLATION: I think today


after all this the people will rise up for real. You must understand for


people to really rise up what is needed. It lasted hours, as the


violence tore through the heart of Kiev, it was clear lives were being


lost. Three dead bodies lay in the street, three more in a building


close to the parliament. Hundreds are reported injured. The sight of


police officers retreating injured and in fear of their lives will


inflame opinion among those Ukrainians who support the


Government, at present Viktor Yanukovych. As many, especially in


the Russian speaking south and east of the Ukraine do. Reports that


policemen have been killed tonight will harden attitudes further. Many


in Ukraine's Government and crucially in Russia see the protests


as a criminal and even terrorist enterprise, supported by western


Intelligence Services. Ukraine is tonight more polarised than it has


been for years. TRANSLATION: In this situation leaders of the opposition


should take all responsibility for everything that is happening today


on the streets of Kiev. Over the past two days they themselves


announced today's march, which grew into a military confrontation.


Earlier it seemed tension was easing, protesters had even begun


leaving occupied buildings in return for guarantee they wouldn't be


prosecuted. But in parliament, opposition MPs trying to change the


constitution rein in the power of the President found their efforts


thwarted by the Government. Scuffles broke out, soon the conflict spilled


on to the streets. TRANSLATION: President Yanukovych must turn his


facts into parliament as required by the constitution, to vote for our


document and start solving the political crisis within parliament


and not in the streets with clashes, riot police and Special Forces.


Protests began in November when President Yanukovych, who has always


been backed by Russia, rejected a deal with the European Union, in


favour of closer ties with Moscow. Pro-democracy activists, especially


in Kiev and the west of the country, which feels itself closer to the


traditions of central Europe, saw that as a betrayal of Ukraine's


democratisation. And its progress to the European mainstream. The


conflict started about European integration and the question whether


Ukraine should go east or west, but the course of events it is in a way


united Ukraines from the two -- Ukrainians against corruption and


excessive use of force, right now we see a struggle between the ruling


regime and the protestors for human rights. But Ukraine is a country


pulled in opposite directions by its neighbours. The magnetic draw of the


European destiny offered by the EU is countered by the gravitational


pull of Moscow. And in future a Russian sphere of influence. In the


long run the Ukraine must find way to reconcile these two impulses. But


tonight, and urgently, the Government and the opposition must


find a way to pull the country back from the violence into which that


divide has tipped it. We're joined now from Kiev by the opposition MP,


from the UDA party, and by the professor from Yale University


talking to us from Vienna. Can you tell me please first off what is the


feeling like on the streets tonight, what is actually happening there? It


is a large scale attack on the Midan, the main camp of the


protestors. The fires have been going for more than four hours. One


of the police were boasting to the Russian side that Midan will be done


in a few hours but they continue. Klitschko the leader of the


opposition and another opposition leader went to meet Mr Yanukovych


and try to achieve some kind of ceasefire. But they, as far as I


know, are still not met by Yanukovych, it is a continuation of


violence still. Professor snider, you have made a long study of this,


what is this conflict really about? It is fundamentally about the rule


of law and the desire to live in place that is not corrupt, a place


where they know the children will be in school and they won't have to


bribe people. That is what they mean by Europe. They believe, many


Ukrainians and most believe they are ruled by a corrupt regime and


enriched itself from them, and in the last few weeks used violence


against them. That is what the conflict is fundamentally about. On


both sides there are now other actors who are highly engaged. In


the Russian case probably over engaged.engaged. , , to an outsider


looks extremely serious. When you have scenes like this on the streets


of a capital city, it looks very bad indeed. This is a defining moment,


do you think, professor, in how this confrontation is going to be


resolved? Well this is as bad as it has gotten. This is as bad as


anything has been in Ukraine, since Ukraine became an independent state


a quarter of a century ago. This is the worst moment of violence in this


series of protests. This could still get worse. The problem with today's


choice to use violence against the protestors is that it is going to


put Yanukovych in a position where he may have to choose whether or not


to double down. It is really unclear to me, as I think it is to most


observers is what to do next. Do you use more violence or begin


negotiations? This is as bad as it has gotten, but there are more


turning points ahead of us. Is it possible to see a resolution of this


crisis while the President stays in power? Well, we had all our hopes


for quite a long time, but actually probably one of the core reasons


that it came to that violence and that aggressive behaviour is because


Yanukovych and his entourage tried to ignore people's demands. For


three months in a row we saw he met no demands from the protesters. It


was simple at the beginning, actually punishment of those police


officers that beat innocent students on November 30th. Then freeing older


people who were in detention for political reasons. And also the


Government who did really poorly economically and actually stopped


the European integration. Those three conditions were very simple to


meet, but the Government wanted to continue on its own ways. It came to


that point of violence. The BBC learned today that the


National Health Service is postponing the implementation of a


new computer database. The NHS has blown billions of duff computer


systems before. This scheme is controversial because so many people


are worried about the implications of plans to share treatment records.


Possibly even with drug companies. The Information campaign to reassure


people hasn't been a screaming success, with some polls showing


four out of five doctors don't even understand how the thing would work.


Joining me now is our chief correspondent, you are just starting


here. There is a whiff of panic about this. This system was meant to


get going in days. It was designed to suck out your GP records into a


central database where most of that information would be anonymously


held. But it could be in a useable way, analysed and potentially


revolutionally for researchers and one day for drug companies to look


at patterns of disease, public health and the like. There is a


logic here because a similar system already exists for hospital, linking


up hospitals and GP surgeries where the majority of care takes place


makes sense. In recent days the volume of complaints h soared,


anxiety about potential data breaches and privacy, probably the


trickyist complaint of all is made by doctors, that frankly, huge


numbers of their patients hadn't a clue about what was about to happen


and they didn't want to detend fend it in front of them. -- defend it in


front of them. Those millions of leaflets doesn't seem to make a


difference, as they came through with a pizza menu most didn't


understand it was going to make changes. Have you had one? As a


straw poll of two, I haven't had one so neither you, 0%. Here to discuss


these issues is the GP representative for NHS England. This


isn't going to happen now immediately. Is it going to happen


for sure in six months time? I would absolutely hope so. OK so there is


nothing wrong with the policy it is a question of the failure to


communicate properly? It is amazing that something that has the


potential to transform the way we look after patients, something that


has been signed up by the major patient charities in this country


and one of the only parts of the Health and Social Care Bill that the


RCGP agreed to is having such bad press. My sense is it is caught up


in the age of mistrust, it is caught up in a lot of noise that's going on


around it, such as the mistrust happening around Snowden, and


actually it is something that is very positive that will help deliver


better patient care and better health services. Why have you so


singularly failed to communicate that to the public? There is an


issue there, of course there is. There has been failure to


communicate this. As I have said, if I was to back, to look at how we can


do this again, which actually we are going to do, we need to have a


relook at it, a relook at how we are going to inform the public of the


benefits of this programme. And actually start working with some of


the patient organisations that are concerned about this, to highlight


the real benefits to call all all of us. You would admit you have messed


up the communication? I do think there has been an issue, but dare I


blame the press. Why blame the mess, we haven't had them, take a poll of


all the technicians, I don't think anyone has any of these things?


There is major newspapers saying that police are getting access and


the information will be sold to insurance companies and for


commercial companies. It is misinformation. Can you give a


guarantee it will never be sold to insurance companies? It is illegal


to sell it for commercial purposes. There is no chance of it going to


drug companies? It depend what is they want, they can have access to


data now, if a drug company puts in an appropriate research protocol,


they have a legitimate reason to look at this. We are not talking


about drug companies to do it and then to sell you drugs and drop on


your doorstep a drug you don't want. My question is whether it could be


sold to drug companies? It will not be sold to drug companies. If you


ask would a drug company, could a drug company have a legitimate use


for information in monitoring long-term medications of course.


Private healthcare providers? They will not get access to this data.


All of them? Again, if a private health company wants to put in a


legitimate research protocol that goes through the ethical and legal


framework that anybody else has to, then they may potentionally have it


if they want to do something. Commercial entities will


potentionally have access? Commercial entities will not have


access to this data in order to start selling you products, to drop,


as you mentioned with the pizza, to drop advertising and material on


your desk. No that is you, you have done that? Neither would insurance


companies, neither will the police. This is for legitimate reasons, for


the first time in the history of the NHS we will bring together data that


is collected by myself in the practice with hospital data. The


other thing people are concerned about is precisely how easy it would


be to identify them. David Davis has already cited one case he has his


nose broken five times, matched that up, the number of people with


five-times broken nose is not very many, 100 or so? Yes, if you want to


take very... What about dip -- dyptheria vaccinations and dates? If


you are asking that vaccination and your date of birth, again it would


be very difficult. Will people's postcodes be disclosed? The way the


information, as your report said, it will be sucked up into a central


computer system, postcode, NHS number will be taken up into a


centralised system, in order to link it with the data that we have


already in hospitals. If you want to use it for research purpose, you


will have to go through proper ethical and legal process, that data


will not be entified. It will be what's called pseudo anonymised,


scrambled up. The only way you will have it is scrambled up data. When


you look in an organisation like the National Security Agency in the


United States, the most highly classified secrets in the world and


yet still man can get in there and publish them wherever he likes. We


can't have any confidences in these assurances you are giving? You have


had it for 25 years. Can you do a better job of keeping secrets than


the National Security Agency? Fortunately it is not my job because


I don't understand computers. But for 25 years there hasn't been a


breach of information to the level that you have just been decribing in


the national security office. Do you know how many serious data breaches


there have been in the last two years? I have been told, I do know,


it was on the front page of a major newspaper. What were you told? I


think there was something like 2,000 day if I remember rightly. Two


million a year? Two million start of 2011 and now? The vast majority of


those, the NHS needs to keep up with the times, the vast majority were


notes left on the back of cars, data stick, computers with information


not encrypted, what this is about is a safe, secure, legally binding


system held within the information centre which, as I have said up


until now, has not had a data breach. What's wrong with Wales, if


you wanted to keep a mouthful of teeth it wasn't a question you asked


there about this time of night. Now the chances are you will find plenty


Welsh people trying to give an answer. Wales is in trouble,


particularly in education. As its ambitions have grown, its


achievements have tumbled. A committee of the Welsh great and


good reports very soon on whether the cure for the failures of the


devolved Government of Wales is to give it more power. John Humphreys


who began his journalistic career as a cub reporter on the Mabinogion has


been back. A century ago Wales had two things


in abundance, coal and confidence. The one a consequence of the other.


This port in Cardiff exported more coal than any other port in the


world. It came from the Welsh valleys, just north of here. Every


other village pretty much had its own colliery. Now they have gone.


And with the coal has gone much of that confidence. The economy was


devastated. And yet, what you won't find in


Wales is many people had amenting the good old days. Because they


weren't good. Too many miners were killed in accidents, far too many


died slow deaths from the dust in their links. Promises were made when


the pits closed and the miners' jobs went with them, there would be new


jobs. But a town like Merthyr, built on coal and iron and once the


richest town in Wales, has gone through some terrible times and is


still in a bad way. And what has devolution done for Merthyr and for


Wales? (Children speak in Welsh a welcome) The Welsh heritage at least


as far as mining is concerned has goner? I think it is a shame. You


want your boy to go down the pit, I bet you wouldn't? No, but I think


there has been a loss to the valleys with a lot of self-respect and


industry has gone. It is part of our culture and heritage, it is part of


our identity. If you speak to some people in Merthyr and in the


concerning valleys, they have lost a sense of identity. There is a loss


because there aren't the stilled jobs they want to do. Jane's son is


at this school in Merthyr, a lovely little school doing well, but there


are many struggling. A recent OECD report found that Welsh education


had crashed down the PISA international league table, way


behind the rest of the UK in reading, maths and science. School


inspections in Wales found that one in four secondary schools were


unsatisfactory. And many blamed the changes brought in by the first


devolved Government 15 years ago, led by Labour ever since. At one


time we, I include myself in this, were immensely proud of what was


happening in schools throughout Wales. After deaf illusion what? I


think -- after devolution, what? When the Government came in they


were optimistic about what could be achieved in Wales. We have had


success, in some schools they tended to abandon the direct teaching of


phonics that we talked about earlier. I think that was perhaps


one of the mistakes that people made at that time. During the years I


think the Welsh Assembly has tried to produce a lot of initiatives.


Sometimes they haven't always given them a chance to embed. They haven't


always consulted with teachers at grassroots levels. We do have


schools with high standards and the challenge, I feel, for the Welsh


Assembly, to ensure that all schools improve and have that consistency in


terms of the quality they provide for their children. The Welsh First


Minister does not deny there are problems. What is wrong with he had


cautious can you argue, can't you, that you judge a nation by its


education, and judge its future by its education? We got rid of


testing, we relied on teachers to assess children. I think we have to


take another look at that. Because we know the teachers will assess


children in a particular way, and they may be overdoing it. We need to


make sure that teachers are able to benchmark their assessments in an


objective fashion. I think there is something we do need to revisit.


What isn't right is all our schools are bad, we have some excellent


schools, but we need to make sure those at the bottom raise their


standards to catch up. And that's why we have launched for example a


scheme called Schools Challenge Wales, where the bottom 40 schools


will receive money and sphere help them to catch up. Professor David


Reynolds of Southampton University is an expert on education and


advising the Welsh Government on how to improve its performance. In terms


of Government and success of devolution and Wales how important


is it? Vital, because an area where we have devolved powers, and if we


wish for more powers we would need to be showing that we can exercise


the present one as wellan exercise the present one as well. If you are


looking at the PISA numbers and you are seeing Wales and 40, and you see


Poland with cleverer kids for a third of the wages, the factory goes


to Poland. Merthyr needs to attract business, nearly a third of the


people work for the Government in one way or another. One was Kelly


who lives with her husband and three children on this big housing estate,


she lost her job last month, and they are husband has been looking


for work for five years. What happened to Merthyr, I lived here


many years ago admit lead and it was a very, at one point a very


prosperous town? The factories that were keeping people in jobs have


closed down and moved away. And the only proper industry around here now


is retail. Unfortunately. There is no, apart from the meat factory. Not


very nice jobs there? Not very nice jobs, and most of the people who


work there are Portuguese and Polish because that company is run by a


certain agency and they like to get the Portuguese and Polish in. Plus


you know they come over here they want a job and they will take


anything. And local people are not so keen on that. I don't know many


people actually who work there. But yeah, the only real industry around


here is retail. It is an odd thing in way, because retail to succeed


needs customers and customers have to have money, there is no money


because there is no jobs. Yes, it is a vicious circle. Do you have any


thoughts about weather devolution -- whether devolution has made a


difference. A significant difference to your lives? At the moment, with


the state that Wales is in I don't think devolution is the way. I would


love for Wales to be independent and I'm a nationalist through and


through. But unfortunately I can see so many problems. My impression is


that the Welsh are generally more enthusiastic about devolution than


they were when I lived here as a young man. Many English speakers,


the majority, of course, think there has been too much focus on promoting


the Welsh language. But there is no denying it has been effective. I


think the whole language and culture area I think is great success. And


the paradox is we were a success there but we don't seem to be able


to replicate that success so far. That's wonderful in lots of ways,


but it is not going to make Wales a success on the world stage? No it is


not. Develop ing a culture could lead into a country which is a theme


park for other people to come visit. We don't want that. We want to be a


country with culture, but a country with an industrial sector too.


Because that would have to underpin the prospect of our people --


prosperity of our people. Maybe the answer is to give the Welsh


Government more power. The commission set up by London agreed


with that. The question is how much more? You don't want independence,


you don't even envisage the possibility of independence, but you


do want more devolution, when does it stop? When does that process


stop, what more do you want? What What we need in the UK, call it a


constitutional convention to make sure that everybody what the


destination is, so there is a common way of devolving power in the future


so there is a proper place for England in the UK constitution,


which doesn't really exist at the moment, and everything is lob sided


at the moment. We need to make sure that changes in the future,


regardless of the result in Scotland. Wales had to change, with


or without devolution, the end of mining saw to that. But not


everything is different. The valleys still, praise be, have their male


voice choirs, like this one. And these MEP -- men are pretty


sanguine, only one wanted independence and he was English.


They want to get their schools right again and then we will see. Of the


many aspects of modern politics that go down like a bucket of cold sick


with the public, pre-eminent is the weekly bout of name-calling, jeering


and finger-pointing and other juvenile behaviour that goes by the


name of Prime Minister's Question Time. In his very first speech as


Tory leader David Cameron attacked what he called "Punch and Judy


politics", still he plays Mr Punch in politics each week and the


Speaker still revels in his own part as the Policeman, coming up with his


own lines telling MPs to "pipe down". The Speaker has written to


parties to tell MPs to knock it off. Let me ask him this... . Eering and


shouting) Quiet yourself. The hard-won


credibility we wouldn't have if we listened to the muttering idiots


sitting next to me. I have always found the hurly burly of Prime


Minister's Questions one of the best ways of finding out what a


politician is really like. Without that noisy House of Commons chamber


would we know that the usually smooth and civil David Cameron has a


slightly mean Flashman streak. Or that Ed Miliband can be wooden and


dithery under pressure. But as entertaining as journalists in the


press gallery find PMQs, those sitting in the public gallery are


rather less enthusiastic. They think there is too much party political


points scoring, it is too aggressive and doesn't always deal with the


important issues facing the country. I guess they didn't let women into


the Bullingdon club either, there we go. The House of Commons speaker,


John Bercow is naturally unsettled by this, and calling for decorum


rather than decible, less of the public school twitishness, but not


quite a call for Trappist amongst. Personally I think that any move to


make the Commons more like a monastery would be doing the public


a disservice. Some of the worst decisions the parliament has made


have been when the three parties cheerily nodded and agreed on an


issue rather than dissecting a bad bill. The one thing worse than a


passionate democracy would be a consensual and defer relation one.


Winston Churchill saw this when he was urged by MPs to rebuild a bombed


Commons with a circular chamber. He warned that he had seen many ardent


and ernest parliaments destroyed by this system. But the former Cabinet


Secretary was the only person he could see in an empty Select


Committee hearing a few weeks ago. If the public want to see ernest


lengthy debate parliament offers plenty of that. The problem is few


people attend these sessions, as is the case in Congress in the states


perhaps there isn't enough drama. Ed Miliband did try to tone things down


at the start of this year, but his new consensual approach fell flat


with his MPs looking far too somber. One of the problems is Conservative


MPs have organised themselves to make as much noise as possible at


PMQ, they are called the Q-Team, and include rowdy hecklers including the


PPS and the Skills Minister. They were only responding to Labour


heckler, the Shadow Justice Secretary, shadow leader of the


house, Shadow Cabinet office minister and the shadow char. They


are all -- Shadow Chancellor. They are all as bad as each other. But


while PMQs is as much as stoking primal enthusiasm, like these masks,


MPs could make it better. This is the one opportunity each week to


hold the Prime Minister to account. Some of the backbenchers choose to


waste their questions by sucks up to their boss in the vain hope of a


promotion. Others choose to Colleagues who -- jeer colleagues.


The Prime Minister could start leading by example if he wants


things to change. You really are a very overexcitable individual, you


need to write out 1,000 times, "I will behave myself at Prime


Minister's Questions". . With us now to discuss all this is the


Conservative MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and from Bristol the Liberal


Democrat Tessa Munt. Are you embarrassed that this is what the


public see of parliament? It is the bit they look at and join. They like


Prime Minister's Questions and watch it far more than any other bit of


parliament. They sadly don't listen to my long and worthy speeches.


Tessa Munt, he has a point, it does at least bring parliament into the


public eye? Yes it does, but for all the wrong reasons, I would say. I


don't think that the playground of that particular political arena is


very sensible at all. I think it is clear from the happen standard


report -- Hansard report that the public think it is very good. You


haven't a very good speaker at present that could be the


explanation? We have a reforming speaker at present. It never crossed


my mind when I was selected that there would never be a time when


select committees are appointed rather than elected, which I was.


There are a number of things he has done, and I suspect PMQs will be the


last and next one, so. Is it a male thing, do you think, Jacob


Rees-Mogg? I don't know, in the pictures that came up there were


quite a number of lady MPs who also heckled. But I think it is actually


a democratic thing. That people feel the points they are arguing about


very strongly, they want to put them across forcefully. Ed Miliband


thinks David Cameron should be... You don't believe that? I do. It is


all you people who were in the Oxford Union, jeering, cheering? It


is not. I fundamentally disagree, and actually the reason people enjoy


this programme is because you are good at skewering politician, it


makes politics exciting. Now you are doing the finger pointing? I do


apologise. You go ahead. I don't call you any names? Well the Prime


Minister very rarely calls people names. By and large it is questions


about policy and they are forcefully held views that the opposition is


challenging the Government about its economic, health and education


policies. Those things are felt strongly. Politicians aren't


entirely cynical operatives, they do actually believe in things and have


principles. Why are you shaking your head, doesn't this apply to you? No,


I think it is tosh, if you want to listen to people being held to


account for their views and policies go to the ordinary question session


that is take place at the beginning of every day in parliament. Prime


Minister's Questions is just a complete charade, it is ludicrous


behaviour, it is completely stupid. It is just like I guess a public


school debating club or something. It is just rubbish that this holes


the Prime Minister to account. There is all sorts of questions that if


anyone mentions the word "Europe" or "one-nation" the whole place bursts


into flames and everybody just, I don't know it is ridiculous. I have


been in there and I have actually writen to the speaker on occasion,


last year, when it just got completely ridiculous and people


were being bullied. There is a savage undertone to some of this.


Some people stand in the chamber to ask their questions and they are


bullied relentlessly by the other side or people behind them or


whatever. It is very unattractive to try to persuade people to go into


politics if that is what they say they have to go through. Who are the


worst offenders? Goodness me I wouldn't know, I couldn't name


people. I expect that probably if you went back to the speakers tapes.


If you care so much name some names? Well there was a comment last week


wasn't there where somebody said it would be quite nice to have day in


parliament where Mr Gov, he's name wasn't mentioned for some reason of


behavioural. Apart from the Secretary of State for Education


anybody else? I think there are people on every side. I think there


are people who. I don't engage in this stuff. Even sainted Liberal


Democrats? There might be, I don't engage in that and I have encouraged


us not to do that. Let's have some names? There are people who are


cloud and enthusiastic, I sit in front of those people. Who are


there? I'm not going to mention them there are enough of them engage


anything that. There are rumours that the whips sent out


congratulatory texts to the major t parties about doing well done about


the wall of sound. We are getting tittle tattle thirdhand of what is


happening in different situationingses, and you have named


Michael Gove and everything names him? We want to make sure that the


issue of harrassment and bullying that takes place needs to be sorted


out. It is for people to adjust their own behaviour. Frankly, I have


been to a county council meeting earlier on this evening, if a town


council behaved in that way they would be put in special measures. If


we had children behavic like this in school they would be taken out and


dealt with. Is there any chance of this changing? I hope not, it would


be ghastly if the Commons were stopped. You wouldn't let children


behave like this in class? Children in class are being taught things


specifically and are meant to be learning. In the House of Commons we


are challenging ideas and in the heat of debate some ideas and


individuals fail. That's very important. Because we want a lead


whore is tough enough to be able to cope with a few people Braing at


him. It is not the end of the world. For God's sake look after our


people, the last words written by Captain Robert Falcon Scott in his


diary just before dying in Antarctica, retain their resonance


after 100 years. Famously Captain Scott had set tout plant the British


flag at the South Pole, discovered he was beaten by the Norwegians, and


perished in the bitterist of bitter cold trying to walk 700 mimes back


to the expedition baize. Now two Antarctic explorers have made the


same journey, without the same dramatic consequences. One of them


is here, Ben Saunders, why did he do it? One of the most bute of places


on earth, Antarctica is not for the faint hearteded, temperatures can


fall to minus 27 Celsius. And the distances are prodigious. In 1927


Robert Falcon Scott took a hand-picked team to claim the pole


for the British Empire. They were beaten to it and never completed the


return journey, perishing a dozen miles short of their final food


depot. In over 100 years since then, no-one has tried to repeat Scott's


journey successfully until now. Ben Saunders prepared for ten years to


follow in the footsteps of Scott's expedition. In October last year


STHET off for the UK. Using the latest technology, including a


specially designed satellite dish. They followed the route plotted by


Scott and his name. Scott's team had to work in relays as they prepared a


five-man unit for a final dash to the poll. Ott and his name. Scott's


team had to work in relays as they prepared a five-man unit for a final


dash to the poll. After finding out they had been beaten to the pole he


wrote "the worst has happened, everything must go". Technology can


do nothing to improve the weather for the new explorers. They were


able to talk by satellite phone throughout their journey and blog


about it. It still took 105 days on the ice. By the time the journey was


over they had lost 20 kilos in weight each. Ben Saunders talked in


his blog of sledges that never seemed to become lighter, rumbling


stop mocks, home sickness, sleep deprivation, deep fatigue, and a


land can a scale that defies comprehension. A scale that


threatened at times to crush their spirits and cut early to exchaste


their bodies. But a scale that left an impression on them that will stay


for the rest of their livesst of their lives. The story of Captain


Scott is wonderful and dramatic. People know it but would not choose


to recreate it? I have still not got a response to that. We weren't


exploring in the same sense as Scott were. We weren't drawing maps or


anything like that The thing that fascinated about this is why wasn't


the journey finished. Why wasn't it? It is a heck of a long way. Even


nowadays. 700 mile walk? Even with vitamin see and solar panels and


velcro and all these essentials, it is a journey still close to the


limits of what happened. It is immensely gruelling and we saw some


of the words you used to describe t and mentally pretty taxing? Very


hard. I have been dragging shreds sleds for a lot of years. I


underestimated how mentally tough it would be, especially within the


weather was bad. Scott and his team were alone. You weren't in the sense


that you had communications, does that make it easier or more


difficult? It can be a double-edged sword, it was wonderful to be able


to write. We had a blog, which we were sending back every day live


from the tent. You saw the little laptop we had. Scott was the writer


and it was Scott's diary that inspired me many years ago. They are


fantastic? He was an amazing writer, very poignant and courageously


towards the end. I'm not a photographer, film maker or artist,


writing has been the way to share stories of this trip. It was


wonderful to be able to tell that story as it unfolded in real time.


The telephone is a different thing. Being able to phone my mum, who I


think was picturing... Did you phone your mu Fairly regularly. You phoned


her from the South Pole? I phoned her every few days. My mum imagined


the 11-year-old schoolboy Ben in the Antarctic, packed lunch and lost in


the blizzard. But she was worrying at times, I think. The phone is a


double-edged sword, and of course we had a safety net. The knowledge that


our suffering was entirely self-imposed was a hard thing to


deal with at times. Scott never had the option of being airlifted out


which we had all the time. We had to dial a number and make the suffering


end. So in that sense it was a test. One final very quick question, why


haven't you got a bigger beard? It was removed couple of days ago, I


got fed one it, there was food and stuff going in it. That's it for


tonight. We leave you with the news of the Lego Movie, which easily


topped the film charts on its release this weekend, making the


brick stars of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, we have learned that


the sim somes are next on the road to Lego makeover.


Whatever next. Next. Ever Any mist and murk will clear


through the afternoon and beginning to break holes in the


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