27/02/2014 Newsnight


27/02/2014

News stories with Laura Kuenssberg. Including the fragile peace in Northern Ireland, historic criminal allegations, the Seeger collection and North Koreans who long for home.


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bring down the Northern Ireland Government after those promises

:00:15.:00:19.

collapsed the man accused over the Hyde Park bombing, there will be an

:00:20.:00:23.

inquiry. We will appoint a full independent judge to produce an add

:00:24.:00:28.

of the administrative scheme, to see if any other letters were sent in

:00:29.:00:35.

error. How fragile is power sharing if old secrets can push it to the

:00:36.:00:38.

edge. The man who signed off the first letter is here. Should the

:00:39.:00:43.

courts allow anyone to escape their pas Recent acquittals show

:00:44.:00:48.

decades-old accusations are not easy to prove. Some say they should be

:00:49.:00:52.

left to lie. There is an awful lot of money spent on these case, I

:00:53.:00:59.

would like the resources devoted to current issues and complaints. The

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Director of Public Prosecutions is here to tell us why that must not

:01:04.:01:08.

happen. What do Nelson's tea spot and

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Nureyev's hat stand have in common, they are part of one collection up

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for grabs. You can buy Al Capone's cocktail shaker. There is a certain

:01:21.:01:24.

frisson to a bloody Mary served out of that. Good evening. After the

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appalling botch that collapseded the trial of the suspected Hyde Park

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bomber, the system it exposed seems to have come close to collapsing the

:01:40.:01:44.

Northern Ireland Government. Having threatened and now withdrawn his

:01:45.:01:49.

possible resignation, the Peter Robinson, the First Minister, said

:01:50.:01:54.

letters that were given as assurances to republican terror

:01:55.:01:57.

suspects are worthless pieces of paper. There will be the inevitable

:01:58.:02:03.

inquiry, and fast, but still fury among unionists that they were shut

:02:04.:02:08.

out of the deal. We report now on old wounds re-opened. The force of

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the explosion was so great that parts of the car were flung across

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the park and into Knightsbridge. So too were nails. 32 years on and once

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again two explosives in central London is threatening to derail the

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Northern Ireland peace process. It was on this road in 1982 that four

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soldiers died and another 12 were seriously injured. The Prime

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Minister suspect in that bombing walked free this week after a judge

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ruled a letter he was sent by the authorities in 2007 effectively

:02:40.:02:43.

guaranteed he couldn't be prosecuted. That letter, it later

:02:44.:02:49.

turned out, w sent by mistake. But through the court process we also

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learned another 186 suspected IRA members, some on the run for decades

:02:54.:02:57.

have been sent similar written assurances they are no longer

:02:58.:03:02.

wanted. Sinn Fein have driven a coach and horses through mutual

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trust, and they are going to have to do something about that. Because

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they are endangering this process, which exists for the benefit of the

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one. Eight million people who live in this country for the benefit of

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200 named people, they know who they are, they consider them more

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valuable than the rest of the population. From what we know so far

:03:26.:03:31.

187 called on the run letters have been sent to republicans once

:03:32.:03:35.

suspected of crimes related to the troubles. No similar letters to

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loyalist suspects. 14149 of the letters went out under the last

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Labour Government. 38 since 2010 under the coalition this afternoon

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the Prime Minister promised a judge-led inquiry to make sure no

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other mistakes were made. We We should have a full inquiry into this

:03:56.:04:01.

scheme. We will appoint a fully independent judge to look into the

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administrative team to see if any other letters were sent in error.

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That concession appeared to calm Northern Ireland's First Minister,

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who until this afternoon was still threatening to resign and trigger

:04:15.:04:17.

fresh elections. I think the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State

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have been prompt, they have dealt with the issue seriously and in a

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manner satisfactory to me. I do not intend to resign on the basis that

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if you get what you want, why on earth would you want to resign.

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Another attack on the British mainland, this time in 1983, six

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were skilled in Knightsbridge after a coding warning came too late. The

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Harrods bombing was one of five deadly IRA attacks in London in the

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early 1980s. One of the main suspects went on the run for ten

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years and was never convicted of any terror offence. She now lives and

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works in Northern Ireland. Whether she and others like her received

:04:57.:05:00.

these letters we still don't know. Some unionists now want to see the

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names of all the individuals sent letters. Sinn Fein says this is a

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complete overreaction. These are people that the lawful process that

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Dominic Grieve spoke about yesterday in the British House of Commons,

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decided that no charges could be brought against them. These people

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didn't create or cause victims. But, there is an issue of perceived

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fairness here. Some are asking why suspected IRA members have been told

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they will no longer face ution, while a criminal investigation is

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under way into the actions of some soldiers in the 1970s. At the end of

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the Bloody Sunday Saville Inquiry, with the announcement of the PSNI

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that they will level murder charges against certain individuals even

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though the uptake of witnesses coming forward has been beyond

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pathetic. At the same time, almost in the same breath, we are hearing

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that those who murdered recklessly will escape justice. That is no

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justice. There is no balance and I think the Prime Minister needs to

:06:05.:06:07.

show leadership and draw a line under the whole matter now. But a

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blanket amnesty is not for the moment a realistic option. Peace

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might have been achieved in Northern Ireland, the immediate crisis might

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have passed. But angry talk of secret letters and deals still hangs

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over Stormont this evening. In a moment we will hear from Jonathan

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Powell, who signed off the first letters and chief British negotiator

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in Northern Ireland under Tony Blair. First David Ford, the Justice

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Minister in Northern Ireland, and the leader of the Alliance Party.

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And Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein are both with us from Belfast. Thank you

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for being with us. How did you not know about this. Peter Hain says

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that suggestion is Ritzable? He can say what he likes but he's standing

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up in the House of Commons and saying we have to address the issue

:06:59.:07:03.

of the OTRs. It is not an explanation of what Peter Hain did.

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We knew the issue had to be addressed, and it should have been

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in an open, transparent and accountable way. That is what didn't

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happen. What did you think was happening with these people then.

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You knew the issue was being taken in hand what did you think was going

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on? We didn't know it was taken in hand. We knew people were saying it

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needed to be addressed. There were clear ways it could have been

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addressed under released under the Good Friday Agreement which people

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voted for and accepted in the Good Friday Agreement. We had no

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knowledge of what was being done by the Government and Sinn Fein. What

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should happen with the letters, Peter Robinson threatened to resign,

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saying not only should there be an inquiry but the letters should be

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torn up. He appears to be happy, should the letters be recinded or

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torn up? I'm not sure of the legalities of recinding, when Peter

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Robinson demanded for letters to be recinded, he seems to be demanding

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no that letters are restated, which is short of his demand. I agree with

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other people that this is such a mess and an independent inquiry is

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required, what where go from here. The listing of names will be a

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breach of obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights,

:08:23.:08:24.

the right to a private life and life.

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Do you understand why some people in unionist communities are furious

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about this and feel some how a deal was done between Sinn Fein and the

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British Government behind closed doors? Let me try to deal with this

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behind closed doors stuff. As David is only after saying, this was

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known, it was probably one of the most discussed issues throughout the

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last number of years. Why do so many senior unionists feel they know

:08:52.:09:01.

nothing All the evidence came out, this was brought up by the British

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Prime Minister saying they would raise it. It was raised in 2007 with

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the policing board and the DUP members were present, again in 2010

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at the policing board, where there was a report given on the scheme. At

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that stage. And the Bradley report on the past in 2009 it said there

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were 200 people in the process and 150 of them had been dealt with.

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What they didn't know was the private letter between British

:09:30.:09:35.

authorities and the person who asked to find out if they were being

:09:36.:09:38.

caught. Let's be here about this. And people are talking about all of

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these. Over 180 people as if they were convicted and tried the vast

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bulk of them were. They were being told that they weren't looking for

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them. What was now under this inquiry. What if there are people on

:10:01.:10:05.

the lists who are told there is evidence and they could be

:10:06.:10:11.

prosecuted? I can give my opinion when I see the statement of the

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British Prime Minister. In my opinion it is unnecessarily and a

:10:14.:10:19.

political fig leaf to allow the DUP to get out of the spot they put

:10:20.:10:23.

themselves in to. The hole they dug. If that is what it is there for that

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is fair enough. In fact for Peter Robinson to say that these letters

:10:29.:10:30.

aren't worth the paper they are written on. Surely that runs against

:10:31.:10:36.

logic if in fact the whole furore arose from the fact that there is a

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letter, which a court of law, in the last few days has said is a

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legitimate letter and is an atreatment. If arrest -- Agreement.

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If arrests come out of this inquiry, what impact will that have, what

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will happen? Nobody has mentioned any arrests, I don't expect there to

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be any arrests, what they have said is they want to find out if there

:11:03.:11:06.

are any other mistakes made. That is an entirely different thing from

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what Peter Robinson is claiming. Jonathan Powell do you, a massive

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miscommunication between these two communities. You have said that it

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is an administrative error, do you accept that the unionists feel they

:11:24.:11:28.

were is the out here and excluded and something was cooked up behind

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closed doors? No there has been an extraordinary muddle between two

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issues. The issues of on the runs arises out of all peace agreements

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and came up after the Good Friday agreement. The British and Irish

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Governments wrote to all-party leaders and said they wished to

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solve the issue of on the runs, we negotiated the issue for the rest of

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the Government from 2001-2007, we never reached the agreement and were

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unable to find a comprehensive agreement to on the moneys. People

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are modelling the issue of on the runs in a certificate yes, sir of

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administrative letters on people who would be wanted. They we sent

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individual letters saying they weren't wanted. It is not an amnesty

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or secret deal, it was a series of letters. There was a system set up,

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a series of letters, to deal with this k we have any confidence that

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there aren't other mistakes, there has been this one appalling botch --

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appalling botch. Can you sigh there are no other things? The police made

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a mistake in dealing with this letter. Instead of checking with the

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Metropolitan Police whether this man was wanted or not, they failed to do

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so. They issued him a letter saying he wasn't wanted when the

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Metropolitan Police wanted him. Weren't there other mistakes with

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similar consequences? I note the inquiry drawn out by the Prime

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Minister is narrow, it is dealing with whether other mistakes were

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made. And the question on could there be further incidents it

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couldn't happen. I would like at the letters to see if there were other

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mistakes in the letters. Except the system was set up here, there was

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mistakes made. The way it has happened has surely damaged the

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trust that was so critical to the progress of this whole process? I

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think if the price of keeping the Government going was to have an

:13:26.:13:29.

inquiry that is a sensible thing for David Cameron to do. I think there

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is a certain amount of this fury, if you look back at the parliamentary

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question answered by John Reed in 2002. He talked about the process

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and how many people had been dealt with. It was covered in other

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publications. You would have to be Australian observant if you didn't

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know it was happening. Do you think the unionists are bluffing some how?

:13:52.:13:55.

They are approaching elections and people are casting around and

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blaming other people. I hope they get to running Northern Ireland and

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the success that the Good Friday Agreement has been to bringing peace

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to Northern Ireland. They would have had to be fairly unobservant to know

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what was going on, that means they are deliberately look away or they

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wantant to know? You will -- want to know. You will have to ask them. It

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was not a secret, out there in the public domain they could have seen

:14:18.:14:26.

it. Coming up the North Korean exiles who want to return home.

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There are days I ask myself why did I choose to come here in the first

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place. If justice delayed is justice

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denied, perhaps crimes past should be pursued lend leasely --

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endlessly. With some failed celebrity trials the authorities

:14:53.:14:57.

have been accused of witch hunts. But the director of public

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prosecutor, Alison Saunders has made it plain to her prosecutors that

:15:01.:15:04.

they should press on. The date of alleged plans should not matter. She

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will tell us why in a few moments. Out of 16 arrests in Operation

:15:09.:15:15.

Yewtree, set up after revelations of Jimmy Savile's past crimes, only

:15:16.:15:20.

four charges have been made. Even if the intentions are laudible, are

:15:21.:15:23.

they realistic. Recent front pages have been peppered with historic

:15:24.:15:30.

sexual offence trials. Bill Roache and Michael Lavelle acquitted,

:15:31.:15:37.

Stuart Hall convicted, and continuing against Dave Lee Travis.

:15:38.:15:43.

Alison Saunders, the Director of Public Prosecutions wants more old

:15:44.:15:51.

cases to come too trial. Prosecutors will be told not to ignore cases

:15:52.:15:55.

even though they happened a long time ago. The decision is welcomed

:15:56.:16:00.

by Labour? What is important is the principle, if you have been abused

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we should be able to stand up for you, you should come in and you

:16:05.:16:07.

should be believed and we should do everything we can to make sure the

:16:08.:16:10.

case is proved and you get the justice you deserve. T guidelines

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apply to all crimes, they are expected to have particular effect

:16:15.:16:18.

on sexual offences, where victims are often reluctant to come

:16:19.:16:21.

forwards. If you were to report a burglary to the local police, you

:16:22.:16:25.

would at least expect them to believe a burglary have happened,

:16:26.:16:29.

but many victims of sexual advice don't even feel that basic level of

:16:30.:16:34.

assurance, let alone confidence that their assaliants will come to court.

:16:35.:16:38.

Thankfully things are getting better, largely because of

:16:39.:16:41.

specialist police officers who understand the sensitivities around

:16:42.:16:46.

these crimes. Even so, many victims still stay sigh nt.

:16:47.:16:52.

Old stigmas remain, and a senior official at the NSPCC told Newsnight

:16:53.:16:57.

he was worried a new one might be forming. Victims have told the

:16:58.:17:06.

charity that people will expect a financial notion. It doesn't log how

:17:07.:17:13.

many historic prosecutions it begins or how many are successful. There

:17:14.:17:18.

are practical questions about the evidence? We have seen some things

:17:19.:17:23.

so far, and there is a difficulty for court cases that rely on nailing

:17:24.:17:27.

down evidence, and what happened, in what time frame, in what

:17:28.:17:32.

circumstances? To go into that many decades afterwards. That is not

:17:33.:17:35.

something that can be wished away. There are worries about cost? There

:17:36.:17:39.

is an awful lot of money being spent on these cases. What I would prefer

:17:40.:17:44.

to see happen is the resources about be devoted to current issues and

:17:45.:17:49.

current complaints rather than those going back 30, years. D, 40 years.

:17:50.:18:00.

It is a political question. In my view it isth should be many of the

:18:01.:18:06.

offences against children and women and young people, they are the most

:18:07.:18:09.

difficult questions, if we are not there to protect them, what is the

:18:10.:18:14.

system about. The Director of Public Prosecution, Alison Saunders is here

:18:15.:18:18.

to discuss it with us. In a sense Emily is right, isn't she, this is a

:18:19.:18:22.

decision, a conscious decision, under political or public pressure

:18:23.:18:28.

to make up for past mistakes isn't it? It is not. We look at all cases,

:18:29.:18:33.

no matter when the allegations were or when the report of the offence

:18:34.:18:37.

takes place. We look at them all in the same way. We look for sufficient

:18:38.:18:41.

evidence for a Israelestic prospect of conviction, whether it is in the

:18:42.:18:45.

public interest to prosecute. If you look at them in the same way, why

:18:46.:18:51.

tell your prosecutors they must press on with historic allegations,

:18:52.:18:56.

if you looked past that you wouldn't have to make instruction at all. It

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is about reaffirming what the prosecution knows which is in some

:19:00.:19:05.

cases we will look to make sure that justice is done and victims get

:19:06.:19:09.

their day in court and if traditionally if there is going to

:19:10.:19:13.

be a very minor penalty imposed, that we might not go ahead. But in

:19:14.:19:18.

these cases, particularly in sexual offence cases we should think twice

:19:19.:19:21.

about that and have a look at what the victim also wants. Can you say

:19:22.:19:27.

hand on heart you will make this change, or reminding your

:19:28.:19:32.

prosecutors of this, if it hadn't been some of the revelations this

:19:33.:19:36.

year about how victims are laughed at and dismissed? This is a

:19:37.:19:39.

consultation that has come about because we have been looking at old

:19:40.:19:43.

cases. And where allegations have been made some time, there last been

:19:44.:19:49.

a delay in making them. Our awareness changes about what makes

:19:50.:19:53.

victims tell their stories later. Why they don't do it at the time and

:19:54.:19:58.

really king that into account. We have developed in our thinking.

:19:59.:20:02.

There is not very much that might make victims feel confident of that,

:20:03.:20:09.

sadly. There is a huge number of people coming forward, the BBC

:20:10.:20:15.

report that child abuse reporting goes up 80%, but the number of

:20:16.:20:20.

arrests goes down. Knowing that it is all very well telling your

:20:21.:20:29.

prosecutors to press on can their cases but how can they have

:20:30.:20:33.

confidence? Rewest prosecute a large amount of case as year. Sexual abuse

:20:34.:20:43.

cases we successfully brought out was 80 last year. If allegations

:20:44.:20:49.

have gone up by 70% it is not good enough. It shows people are

:20:50.:20:53.

confident in coming forward. You still have to investigate and there

:20:54.:20:57.

has to be the evidence that is accumulated in order to get an

:20:58.:21:00.

arrest. Doesn't that come to the difficulty, when you are talking

:21:01.:21:05.

about things decades ago, the evidence is harder to accumulate,

:21:06.:21:10.

memories fade, we have seen that in recent case, that is a big problem,

:21:11.:21:18.

is it not? It is but it is not insurmountable and we can base a few

:21:19.:21:22.

cases, the school in Buckinghamshire where we looked at prosecuting. A

:21:23.:21:27.

man was a teacher and headmaster, these took places a few years ago.

:21:28.:21:32.

Lots of places where we prosecute successful. Does it come down to a

:21:33.:21:36.

question of cash. You have lost a quarter of your legal staff how can

:21:37.:21:41.

you possibly devote all the resources you need to push these

:21:42.:21:45.

cases through. Is it not better to concentrate on cases that are

:21:46.:21:48.

happening now, when people are coming forward, rather than things

:21:49.:21:51.

that might be harder to get results on. This isn't an issue about

:21:52.:21:55.

resources but making sure we have the right evidence and it is in the

:21:56.:21:58.

public interest to prosecute. Wait in which we have resoared ourselves

:21:59.:22:02.

in order to deal with the resource issue has allowed us to. We now have

:22:03.:22:14.

13 RASSU, it is experienced officers looking at the cases who know what

:22:15.:22:17.

they are doing and really experienced. They really do know

:22:18.:22:23.

what they are doing. How can you apply extra resources

:22:24.:22:33.

for sometimes on by when they have made the most of it. We can use the

:22:34.:22:37.

resources we have changed from digital changes to put into the

:22:38.:22:40.

safety. It is about making sure we have the right evidence and it is in

:22:41.:22:43.

the public interest to prosecute them. Do you accept that

:22:44.:22:49.

prosecutions of allegations made in years gone by are you much -- are

:22:50.:22:55.

much harder to get results in court? I don't see why victims are treated

:22:56.:23:00.

any differently if they haven't made the allegation until now, why should

:23:01.:23:04.

we penalise them again. They should be treated in exactly the same way

:23:05.:23:08.

as current allegations and current victim, which is what we do. As you

:23:09.:23:12.

are here I must ask you on what's happened in the last few days in

:23:13.:23:15.

relation to the John Downey case and the collapse of that trial. Why did

:23:16.:23:20.

the CPS go ahead with the prosecution, even though he had that

:23:21.:23:24.

letter guarnteeing immunity. Why did it even come to that? It was a

:23:25.:23:29.

really serious allegation. When we looked at the letter we thought

:23:30.:23:33.

there was an arguable case to put before the court that said the

:23:34.:23:37.

letter didn't actually grant immunity. It was saying if there was

:23:38.:23:40.

legislative change, which there wasn't, then there would be

:23:41.:23:43.

immunity. We thought there was an arguable case, we should it before

:23:44.:23:47.

the court and the judge didn't criticise us for doing so, he

:23:48.:23:53.

disagreed with us. Could there be a retrial? Not unless there is new

:23:54.:24:03.

evidence. Is Why Why would you risk life and limb to

:24:04.:24:07.

escape a brutal regime, only to return. Some of North Korea's 25,000

:24:08.:24:12.

defectors who made it to the safety of the south are doing just that.

:24:13.:24:16.

Why are some of the new arrivals prepared to leave comfort, freedom

:24:17.:24:21.

and automatic South Korean citizenship behind, to go back to

:24:22.:24:31.

their repressive homeland. On a clear day soldiers patrolling South

:24:32.:24:39.

Korea's border can see North Koreans going about their lives. The

:24:40.:24:43.

closeness of the two warring armies means patrols are thorough. Despite

:24:44.:24:48.

land mines and watch towers between them, some North Korean defectors

:24:49.:24:54.

have made it across undetected. The soldiers are warned to be alert for

:24:55.:24:58.

signs of disturbance on both sides of the defence. A few months ago

:24:59.:25:03.

their unit shot and killed a man here in South Korea as he tried to

:25:04.:25:07.

swim across the river to the north. He's not the only one to try. Why

:25:08.:25:15.

would anyone want to leave South Korea's bustling capital for a life

:25:16.:25:19.

of hardship and repression in the north. Especially someone like Kim.

:25:20.:25:25.

He's a North Korean success story, he escaped to the south to # years

:25:26.:25:30.

ago, he's -- 20 years ago, he's married with two children and a

:25:31.:25:34.

successful career. He has already tried once to return to the north

:25:35.:25:37.

and is planning to do so again next year. TRANSLATION: It might appear I

:25:38.:25:46.

have succeeded in south Korea, I haven't, my parents are in there,

:25:47.:25:50.

and my siblings too, I haven't been able to see them. It is only natural

:25:51.:25:55.

for me to find ways to visit and do it openly and legally. It is illegal

:25:56.:26:03.

for South Korean citizen, including defectors to have any direct contact

:26:04.:26:08.

with North Korea. No phone calls, e-mails or letters. Those with

:26:09.:26:13.

family left behind push for warmer relations between the two

:26:14.:26:16.

Governments in the hope seeing their parents, brothers or sisters

:26:17.:26:23.

against. TRANSLATION: For me coming to South Korea was like tasting

:26:24.:26:27.

chocolate for the first time. Taste was so tweet I -- sweet I wanted to

:26:28.:26:35.

share it with them. I wanted to show what life is like, they have only

:26:36.:26:40.

the negative view of capitalism, I love this country so much I owe it

:26:41.:26:47.

to them to show it. He left his South Korean family in Seoul and

:26:48.:26:51.

travelled to China. He knocked on the door of the North Korean embassy

:26:52.:26:54.

there and said he wanted to go back to the motherland. Not forever, just

:26:55.:27:00.

for a holiday. They let him in for a chat and then they told him to get

:27:01.:27:09.

lost. They were really angry, he said. TRANSLATION: At the time

:27:10.:27:14.

relations between the two Koreas were good and South Koreans visited

:27:15.:27:18.

the north, nobody who came to the north tried t I was the first. There

:27:19.:27:22.

was no problems getting into the embassy, when they learned I was a

:27:23.:27:31.

part of it. I said I just wanted to visit my home down, they were very

:27:32.:27:40.

angry. He did manage to take a both across North Korea's border with

:27:41.:27:44.

China. He moored on the North Korean shoreline and filmed this rare

:27:45.:27:48.

footage of North Korean soldiers patrolling the river bank.

:27:49.:27:52.

Incredibly the soldiers allowed themselves to be filmed chatting,

:27:53.:27:55.

accepting money and even stepping on to the boat. We have blurred their

:27:56.:28:02.

faces to protect them. But to Mr Kim it is a sign that North Korea isn't

:28:03.:28:08.

that dangerous at all. Not everyone would agree. We went to meet someone

:28:09.:28:14.

who knows first hand the risks of living under the North Korean

:28:15.:28:19.

regime. A North Korean defector to fled here a year ago after leaving

:28:20.:28:34.

North Korea's prison camp number 12. TRANSLATION: I saw large maggots

:28:35.:28:40.

going around, coming out of the corpes. People would dash for them

:28:41.:28:45.

and put them in their pockets, they ate them later. I wondered if they

:28:46.:28:53.

would be poisonous, and people were eating them to keep alive. I

:28:54.:28:58.

wondered if I would. Others would capture rats and eat them raw, I

:28:59.:29:02.

remember their mouths covered in blood. I have seen so many people

:29:03.:29:06.

killed for breaking minor rules. In my cell alone three people were

:29:07.:29:13.

killed within a month. Would you go back? Never, why would I go back to

:29:14.:29:17.

that place of darkness. I wouldn't go, I would rather die. This was the

:29:18.:29:25.

river that greeted Kim 18 months ago as he arrived in China with his wife

:29:26.:29:29.

and child. They were North Korean defectors, running from economic

:29:30.:29:36.

problems in the south. Mr Kim's plan was to redefect to North Korea by

:29:37.:29:41.

swimming across the river. But the current was too strong, so he went

:29:42.:29:46.

and knocked on the door of the nearest North Korean consulate

:29:47.:29:50.

instead. It took him a week to persuade them he was serious, then

:29:51.:29:54.

they let him in. When he arrived the regime threw and press conference,

:29:55.:30:03.

Mr Kim and his family were taken to Pyongyang and paraded in front of

:30:04.:30:06.

journalists there. He told them defectors like him who escaped to

:30:07.:30:14.

South Korea were the victims of humam rights activists COMPLIERG

:30:15.:30:19.

against the Korean -- conprioring against the state. Figures kept by

:30:20.:30:24.

the South Korean Government say 13 defectors have returned home, but

:30:25.:30:29.

activists say many more have gone back unofficially. For Mr Kim, life

:30:30.:30:34.

in the south was now a distant memory, it is capitalist democracy

:30:35.:30:40.

reviled and criticised. Except a few months later he decided to come

:30:41.:30:45.

back. South Korea wasn't so welcoming a second time. Mr Kim was

:30:46.:30:49.

hauled in front of this court behind me and asked to explain his erratic

:30:50.:30:55.

behaviour. His lawyer cited financi difficulties in the north, other

:30:56.:31:02.

propers suggested he may have feared for his safety. The court was

:31:03.:31:05.

unamused and gave him a three-year jail sentence. We asked permission

:31:06.:31:10.

to visit Mr Kim but it was denied. We moat to him instead and got this

:31:11.:31:15.

reply. In it Mr Kim says that the press conferences arranged by North

:31:16.:31:21.

Korea to showcase return detectors are compulsory, with speakers forced

:31:22.:31:25.

to take part. This is my real and desperate story, he writes. Finding

:31:26.:31:35.

place in South Korean society isn't easy for defectors. At this boarding

:31:36.:31:40.

school for North Korean children in Seoul, staff teach core values like

:31:41.:31:45.

trust and self-sufficiency alongside lessons in basic Korean language.

:31:46.:31:50.

The two countries have been insulated from each other for so

:31:51.:31:56.

long, that even the words used in the south can be foreign. It is hard

:31:57.:32:06.

to find an America Di Canio know in the -- Americaano. But the

:32:07.:32:13.

curriculum here is designed to steer them towards jobs that don't require

:32:14.:32:23.

IT or employment skills. Mr Son, like other defectors got a package

:32:24.:32:27.

of Government support on arrival, including this But debt problems

:32:28.:32:34.

meant bailiffs took his fridge and washing opinion. Now his food ass

:32:35.:32:39.

are stored on the unbeated balcony. Strapped between financial struggle

:32:40.:32:43.

in the south and lack of contact with his family in the north. Mr Son

:32:44.:32:54.

has drawn attention by applying to the Korean Government for permission

:32:55.:32:58.

to go home. TRANSLATION: Over the years I have noticed the political

:32:59.:33:05.

indifference and the interior battles they have. I asked myself

:33:06.:33:13.

why I chose to come here, anywhere a North Korean person goes can face

:33:14.:33:17.

discrimination. But the discrimination from your people is

:33:18.:33:23.

terrible. One rule suggests 10,000 hours of practice leads to mastery

:33:24.:33:36.

in each instrument. There is a new theory in town, and it is very

:33:37.:33:41.

controversial. Academics from Yale University, Amy Chua, and Jen

:33:42.:33:47.

Rubenfeld, also husband and wife are advocating the triple package. We

:33:48.:33:50.

will hear from them in just a second. First why don't they think

:33:51.:33:59.

three is the magic number. This book struck a nerve and generateded a

:34:00.:34:05.

roar of publicity, with an unswerving part biographical

:34:06.:34:10.

synopsis of strict Chinese parenting. Now she's back with a new

:34:11.:34:15.

theory. This time tackling the apparent taboo of why some cultural

:34:16.:34:19.

groups in America are queen cyst tently more successful -- are consit

:34:20.:34:25.

tently more successful than others. Statistics show it is down to a so

:34:26.:34:30.

called triple package of factors. The first is superiority complex,

:34:31.:34:35.

people in some groups, she says, simply believe in their own talents

:34:36.:34:39.

or feel they are destined to improve. The second in congras

:34:40.:34:44.

diction is insecurity. Immigrants for example, she claims, feel like

:34:45.:34:49.

they have more to prove. Or need to try harder just to be equal. And

:34:50.:34:57.

then it is impulse control, good old fashioned self-discipline, some

:34:58.:34:59.

parents are better at instilling than others. Is this really ground

:35:00.:35:05.

breaking research or just a new list of cultural stereotypes.

:35:06.:35:13.

It is a fascinating territory this. But when you look at some of the

:35:14.:35:17.

things you say in the book, for example, why do so many Jews win so

:35:18.:35:24.

many noble and Pulitzer Prizes, that sounds like a new modern kind of

:35:25.:35:28.

racism doesn't it? I think it is the opposite what we show in their book,

:35:29.:35:33.

first of all, is some of the most successful groups in America today

:35:34.:35:37.

are black and Hispanic. Right off the bat it shows success has nothing

:35:38.:35:42.

to do with skin colour or race. Secondly we showed the groups that

:35:43.:35:45.

are very successful change dramatically over time. Asian

:35:46.:35:50.

Americans they are extraordinary successful academically in the first

:35:51.:35:54.

and second generations, by the third generation Asian American students

:35:55.:35:59.

perform no better than the rest of the country. It is nothing

:36:00.:36:03.

instrainsic in the culture. Let's take another example, why are

:36:04.:36:08.

Mormans running the business and finance sections. You are running

:36:09.:36:13.

massive broad brush-type assumptions here? It is not assumptioning. It is

:36:14.:36:18.

a matter of fact, American Jews are less than 2% of the adult

:36:19.:36:24.

population, and they have over a third of America's Nobel Prizes.

:36:25.:36:27.

That is a fact and a little puzzling to me, what does it mean, you can't

:36:28.:36:33.

state facts. Have you we got to the point if we state facts about

:36:34.:36:38.

racism. We say things in the book like Asian American kids are

:36:39.:36:45.

spending 70-100% more time on school work than the rest of the country.

:36:46.:36:48.

It is a matter of fact. That is called cultural racism. If that is

:36:49.:36:54.

cultural racism to state that fact, we will leave the entire stream of

:36:55.:36:58.

race to the extremists who have genuine racist views happy to tell

:36:59.:37:02.

you what they think all over the media. If pro--ive people are too --

:37:03.:37:08.

progressive people are to afraid to enter the fray then... You say all

:37:09.:37:12.

you are doing is highlight he can success here, who are not on your

:37:13.:37:16.

list? First of all it is not about good and bad groups. That is what

:37:17.:37:21.

your book is all about, success, superiority, how do you get to the

:37:22.:37:24.

top? It is about certain behaviours and who is doing well right now. We

:37:25.:37:30.

say there are certain behaviours, partly the combination of feeling

:37:31.:37:33.

exceptional and insecure that creates this drive and discipline.

:37:34.:37:40.

These behaviours are open to people of any ethnicity and any group. You

:37:41.:37:44.

pick out groups that are doing well and those who are not. Certain

:37:45.:37:48.

groups are instilling the qualities more in their families, in their

:37:49.:37:51.

children, and therefore they are doing better. Our idea is rather

:37:52.:37:57.

than make it taboo let's figure out some behaviours, it is pretty

:37:58.:38:01.

simple. We show these groups start at a young age, pre-school, more

:38:02.:38:07.

fork can hes used behaviour -- focussed behaviour. If we hide the

:38:08.:38:12.

information, you don't he don't need to worry, you can't say that because

:38:13.:38:17.

how can it lead to progress and deal with education reform. What about

:38:18.:38:22.

happiness, you are preaching in this group, your triple package,

:38:23.:38:33.

security, discipline. What about enjoying yourself? We have two

:38:34.:38:36.

chapters where we lay out the problem. It is an honest look of the

:38:37.:38:42.

costs of this drive that some groups are instilling with their kids, it

:38:43.:38:46.

is not a mischaracterisation in the book. We point out at the extreme

:38:47.:38:50.

this is culture and upbringing can produce a great deal of unlapness.

:38:51.:38:56.

In fact if any of us had a potten to to push that chose between success

:38:57.:39:00.

and happiness, we all pick happiness. Is it that simple. You

:39:01.:39:06.

over row Manchester United nice kids, you don't give them the tools

:39:07.:39:11.

to survive in this economy. Will they be happy? I suspect your

:39:12.:39:16.

message might raise more eyebrows than it has in the US. What can we

:39:17.:39:21.

learn from what you are preaching and put anything the book? One thing

:39:22.:39:26.

we notice is a lot of the successful groups are instilling in their

:39:27.:39:29.

families and children this message. Which is very unpolitically correct,

:39:30.:39:37.

we believe in you but not good enough yet. That feeling seems very

:39:38.:39:42.

nasty to tell your child they are not good enough yet, but I think

:39:43.:39:46.

about the other extreme, feeling you are not quite good enough and

:39:47.:39:53.

feeling you need to prove yourself is titled wide. The arts market

:39:54.:40:00.

isn't always a pretty picture, people with enormous chequebooks

:40:01.:40:04.

buying books they don't really want, because they can. On show right now

:40:05.:40:08.

is something rather different, a collection put together with love. A

:40:09.:40:15.

pick and mix of misselly, a thousand pigs, s or Saab wells -- Orsan Wales

:40:16.:40:35.

script. Outfoxed but criminally undervalued, Stephen Smith took

:40:36.:40:40.

himself along to Sothebys for an exclusive look at the catalogue. It

:40:41.:40:44.

is one of those things you can't not want to take home with you, it was

:40:45.:40:47.

awkward because it wouldn't fit in the back of the cap!

:40:48.:41:06.

This is fun I like this. Chris is parting with the collection of a

:41:07.:41:14.

lifetime. Art and furniture. Object and conversation pieces. Some of

:41:15.:41:23.

them more like ex-clam makes mark -- ex-clamation marks. The

:41:24.:41:25.

extraordinary thing about this, it was discovered by an amateur

:41:26.:41:32.

archaeologist. Somebody who was able to recognise that this was an

:41:33.:41:38.

Anglo-Saxon limestone, I think it is, have you found it in a ladies'?

:41:39.:41:45.

Garden and went and inyard about it, the lady said it was a stone she had

:41:46.:41:51.

found and used it as a sort of head stone for a dead stray cat. It was

:41:52.:42:00.

called Winkle. How sweet. For more than 30 years Chris on the right

:42:01.:42:04.

here was the partner of Stanley Seeger, the heir to an oil and

:42:05.:42:11.

timber fortune. Their homes were cabinets of curiosities, filled with

:42:12.:42:19.

great paintings. But also store-front-signage that caught

:42:20.:42:24.

their eye, and dinosaur eggs. Were you as bad as each other, if you

:42:25.:42:28.

forgive the expression, or did Stanley take the lead? We competed.

:42:29.:42:34.

Did you? We competed, we were like a two-man raid. I think Stanley wanted

:42:35.:42:42.

to impress me with what he had found, and I would have to find

:42:43.:42:46.

something that was probably even more... That could thump it?

:42:47.:42:50.

something that was probably even Yes. We helped each other, we were

:42:51.:42:55.

like two naughty school boys, we would have stolen apples together if

:42:56.:42:58.

that is what it took. It was fun. It was great. It was a spree and a

:42:59.:43:09.

laugh? ? It was a spree and a lark. 1,000 curios are going under the

:43:10.:43:15.

hammer next week. With estimates ranging from ?100 to ?120,000. Many

:43:16.:43:19.

have an interesting provenance, as they say. This belonged to Rudolf

:43:20.:43:31.

you are in yes the world's best -- Nureyev, the world's best coat

:43:32.:43:36.

stand, you get a lot on there. It is great. This was presented to Al

:43:37.:43:46.

Capone, by the boys. In 1932. "To a regular guy" isn't that great. There

:43:47.:43:54.

is a certain frisson to a bloody Mary served out of that. Nelson's

:43:55.:44:01.

teapot, I think this is what he is meant to have taken to sea? You

:44:02.:44:04.

didn't just acquire these things and put them in a humidified vault to

:44:05.:44:11.

appreciate did you. Unlike some collectors with their treasures. I

:44:12.:44:15.

don't know, no, we look at these things. You are very hands on. Did

:44:16.:44:20.

you enjoy saying to each other fancy a couple of tea from the Nelson

:44:21.:44:31.

depot. It sounds precious. More movie buffs this particularly lot is

:44:32.:44:36.

the equivalent of the Dead Sea scrolls, it ises or son Orson Wells

:44:37.:44:47.

own copy of the script. It would have been on the desk of the

:44:48.:44:51.

director for read throughs. There was only a quibble, don't call it

:44:52.:45:00.

American, why not go with Citizen Kane. Home for stand low and Chris

:45:01.:45:07.

was once Paul Getty's former mansion, Sutton Place, they made

:45:08.:45:11.

sure they weren't in if there were visitors. Who acquired those

:45:12.:45:17.

horrific works of art? Well they are part of Mr Seeger's collection. It

:45:18.:45:28.

was Francis Bacon which the pair sold in 2001, for a record price of

:45:29.:45:32.

?9 million. A fraction of what it is worth now. They also had # eight

:45:33.:45:39.

Picassos for a time. I remember at breakfast saying Christopher I need

:45:40.:45:46.

a rose picture, a rose period. Keep your ayes open. One came along and

:45:47.:45:53.

then the collection was sort of done. Proceeds from the auction will

:45:54.:46:02.

benefit Seeger's favourite charities and academic research. The only

:46:03.:46:09.

problem for me is that since Stanley died I'm constantly being reminded's

:46:10.:46:14.

dead. Everywhere I look it is "the late Stanley J Seeger". It might be

:46:15.:46:19.

better if it was the early Stanley J seeinger, I wouldn't mind having him

:46:20.:46:30.

back. Guess what know -- snow on the way for most of us. According to its

:46:31.:46:39.

creator it took a microscope and to produce it. He then did something in

:46:40.:46:42.

the edit because it looked nicer. Good night. Wintry weather

:46:43.:47:25.

overnight, further south strong winds for a time in the far

:47:26.:47:30.

south-west, easing through the morning and there will be some snow.

:47:31.:47:31.

Including the fragile peace in Northern Ireland, the prosecution of historic criminal allegations, the Seeger collection and North Koreans who long for home.


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