03/03/2014 Newsnight


03/03/2014

With Emily Maitlis. The latest news from Russian-controlled Crimea and the government in Kiev. Plus, Michael Gove and Benefits Street's White Dee.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 03/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

America warns it will isolate Russia, if it doesn't back out of

:00:00.:00:13.

Crimea. But here the UK Government inadvertently shows its hand and

:00:14.:00:18.

lets slip it has ruled out military action and tough financial sanction.

:00:19.:00:21.

No wonder he looks confident and in command as he watches the Russian

:00:22.:00:28.

army flexing their muscles. Here in Sevastopol Ukraine says Russian

:00:29.:00:32.

forces have surrounded all of its bases on the peninsula, Russia

:00:33.:00:38.

denies giving the Ukrainians an ultimatum to surrender by morning or

:00:39.:00:42.

else. We will be live in Kiev asking the new Ukrainian Government what

:00:43.:00:45.

they are going to do. We will hear from John McCain and voices from

:00:46.:00:51.

around the world about where the crisis goes next.

:00:52.:00:55.

The he had case secretary says he doesn't care how posh his cabinet

:00:56.:00:58.

colleagues are, even if the voters do. It is an English disease to pay

:00:59.:01:04.

too much attention to where someone went to school. From Benefits

:01:05.:01:10.

Street, white White Dee, has the show changed her life and what does

:01:11.:01:18.

the fame mean for her benefits? Good evening, reports tonight that Russia

:01:19.:01:25.

has issued an ultimatum to the new Government in Ukraine to surrender

:01:26.:01:28.

or face full military assault. In five hours that ultimate, then

:01:29.:01:32.

denied by Russia, runs out. Tonight we will ask the interim Government

:01:33.:01:37.

how it intends to respond. President Obama warned Russia it was on the

:01:38.:01:40.

wrong side of history and threatened to isolate the superpower. Here a

:01:41.:01:46.

document that has revealed the UK Government's hand and shows it is

:01:47.:01:49.

unwilling to contemplate any military action or take tough

:01:50.:01:52.

financial sanction. We have ask if the west has any power in this

:01:53.:01:56.

conflict. First, Gabriel Gatehouse has been monitoring events in

:01:57.:02:01.

Crimea, he joins us live. It is less than five hours now until

:02:02.:02:06.

this supposed ultimatum runs out. The Ukrainians say they have heard

:02:07.:02:11.

from Russians and they have been told their bases, now surrounded,

:02:12.:02:16.

will be stormed if they don't vacate them by 5.00am local time. The

:02:17.:02:19.

Russians say it is nonsense and they have no intention of doing any such

:02:20.:02:23.

thing. Whatever the case this has perhaps the desired affect of making

:02:24.:02:28.

everyone jittery, especially inside the bases. Interestingly, talking to

:02:29.:02:31.

ordinary people here, despite all of this going on, many people genuinely

:02:32.:02:36.

do feel pleased towards the presence of Russian forces here. But, they

:02:37.:02:40.

know this is very, very tense and they know that any park could ignite

:02:41.:02:43.

something and nobody here wants a war. We also heard today, again from

:02:44.:02:48.

the Ukrainian authorities, about a supposed build up of Russian troops

:02:49.:02:57.

on the east of the peninsula, just across Into Russia and many more

:02:58.:03:03.

Russian troops coming over here, whatever the case we will see that

:03:04.:03:07.

tomorrow. We have been travelling around the peninsula and seen that

:03:08.:03:11.

the Russians have many of their own forces here, and many seem to have

:03:12.:03:16.

come from the Black Sea base here in Sevastopol. Not a shot has been

:03:17.:03:20.

fired. But in years to come historians may well write that this

:03:21.:03:27.

was how Russia took back Crimea. What would once have been normal

:03:28.:03:32.

every day scenes have now taken on a more frightening aspect. Russia's

:03:33.:03:38.

Black Sea fleet leases its base here in Sevastopol from the Ukrainian

:03:39.:03:42.

Government. Or at least it did. Now its forces aren't guests any more,

:03:43.:03:49.

they have become the masters. On the road out of Sevastopol checkpoints

:03:50.:03:54.

have appeared. These apparently manned by civilians, but they are

:03:55.:04:01.

flying the Russian flag. Moscow's control now extends across the

:04:02.:04:06.

peninsula. Ukraine says all of its military bases have been surrounded.

:04:07.:04:12.

We were south of the capital shortly after the troops arrived. The

:04:13.:04:17.

Ukrainian commander emerged from negotiations with his unseen Russian

:04:18.:04:25.

counterpart. I asked him whether any of his men were prepared to

:04:26.:04:33.

surrender? He told me no-one was surrendering, and it was a Ukrainian

:04:34.:04:43.

brigade and that's that. And so, the stand-off began. The Russians have

:04:44.:04:48.

called on the Ukrainians to vacate their bases. For now they are

:04:49.:04:52.

holding out. Essentially they are prisoners behind their own gates.

:04:53.:04:58.

The Russian troops are well armed and clearly well disciplined. Their

:04:59.:05:03.

uniforms hold no clue as to their identity. But no-one is in any doubt

:05:04.:05:10.

who they are. And many are glad they are here. TRANSLATION: We don't want

:05:11.:05:16.

people to come here with their Molotov cocktails and create chaos

:05:17.:05:23.

like they did in the capital. These troops are here to keep us safe. Not

:05:24.:05:30.

everyone is in agreement. An argument broke out when one man

:05:31.:05:34.

suggested the Russian soldiers were an occupying force. He was quickly

:05:35.:05:43.

shouted down. As more Russian supporters arrived, Ukrainian

:05:44.:05:47.

soldiers watched nervously from the top of the buildings. When we

:05:48.:05:54.

returned today reinforcements seemed to have arrived, and yet more

:05:55.:05:58.

flag-waving supporters blocking movement on and off the base. And

:05:59.:06:05.

so, the Ukrainian troops are relying on locals to rePlehnish their

:06:06.:06:13.

supplies. We watched a Lada deliver shopping to the besieged Ukrainians

:06:14.:06:18.

with the tacit agreement of the Russians, every soldier understands

:06:19.:06:23.

the need to eat. TRANSLATION: Everyone knows perfectly well whom

:06:24.:06:29.

Crimea belongs to, says I can't imagine these guys are pleased to be

:06:30.:06:34.

here es. He added that pointing to the Russians. These men are Crimeas

:06:35.:06:41.

tartares, they fear a Russian takeover. To understand why you have

:06:42.:06:49.

to come to this place. The capital of the Crimea area when the Tartas

:06:50.:06:54.

ruled the peninsula from the 16th century, all of that came to the end

:06:55.:06:59.

with Russia's southward expansion under the Tsars. For many crimian

:07:00.:07:07.

people this is still their home and repositry of their history.

:07:08.:07:13.

Katherine the great's conquests is celebrated here as a great

:07:14.:07:18.

historical event, one that puts Crimea within the Russian umpire for

:07:19.:07:25.

more than two centuries. But for the cry mean -- the people here, this

:07:26.:07:32.

was just one in a series of tragedies that be fell them under

:07:33.:07:39.

Russian rule. This woman is 84 years old, she was 11 when Stalin ordered

:07:40.:07:44.

the whole population to be deported, he suspected them of collaborating

:07:45.:07:49.

with the Nazis. They were herded on to freight trains bound for

:07:50.:07:52.

Uzbekistan. The memory is still painful. The people only returned

:07:53.:07:59.

after Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union.

:08:00.:08:02.

She says the thought of another conflict with the Russians is simply

:08:03.:08:07.

unbearable. She wouldn't wish it on her worst enemy, just let there not

:08:08.:08:17.

be war, she says. This evening Ukrainian naval officers began

:08:18.:08:21.

barricading themselves inside their head quarters in anticipation of a

:08:22.:08:26.

possible Russian assault. Earlier they gathered in the parade ground,

:08:27.:08:31.

to hear an appeal from their new Admiral, not to heed Russian calls

:08:32.:08:37.

to abandon their posts. They tried to break our lines of communication,

:08:38.:08:45.

to break our lines of supply and to, they do a severe psychological

:08:46.:08:50.

pressure on our personnel to betray our motherland. Many people here are

:08:51.:08:54.

deeply suspicious of the new Government in Kiev, and the way in

:08:55.:08:57.

which the previous one was overthrown. Russia may have lost an

:08:58.:09:02.

ally when Viktor Yanukovych was toppled in Kiev, but in a sense they

:09:03.:09:05.

got what they really needed out of him. One of the first things

:09:06.:09:09.

Yanukovych did when he came into office in 2010 was to extend

:09:10.:09:13.

Moscow's lease on this base, right into the middle of this century.

:09:14.:09:21.

There were those Ukrainian politicians on the nationalist side

:09:22.:09:25.

who argued against it and said this base was a Trojan horse, and so

:09:26.:09:30.

indeed it has turned out to be. Not for the first time in history,

:09:31.:09:35.

Crimea finds itself at an epicentre of conflict with great global

:09:36.:09:40.

powers. While the west scrambles to calibrate a response, Russia is busy

:09:41.:09:46.

creating facts on the ground. In Washington tonight, could we be

:09:47.:09:51.

seeing signals of a tougher stance. President Obama's ambassador to the

:09:52.:09:55.

UN promised to stand strongly and proudly with the people of Ukraine

:09:56.:09:58.

at the UN Security Council meeting tonight. We will pass to Washington

:09:59.:10:04.

and speak to John McCain, the former Republican Presidential Candidate

:10:05.:10:07.

who sits on the Senate foreign relations committee. Thank you very

:10:08.:10:10.

much for joining us. Are you hearing tough words from America tonight?

:10:11.:10:17.

I'm hearing a lot of rhetoric, so far the only action to be taken is

:10:18.:10:23.

to boycott the preparatory meeting to take place of the G8. There is a

:10:24.:10:28.

lot of rhetoric, but I frankly don't see a lot of action. What do you

:10:29.:10:32.

think should happen? I think we should do a lot of things, beginning

:10:33.:10:43.

with a fundamental revamping of our policy towards Mr Putin. Our

:10:44.:10:48.

President has been incredibly niave in his dealings with him. The reset,

:10:49.:10:59.

the overheard conversation with him and Medevev, saying tell him he

:11:00.:11:05.

would be more flexible. This is not east-west or Cold War, Mr Putin said

:11:06.:11:09.

the greatest disaster of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet

:11:10.:11:13.

Union. He believes this is east-west, he believes it is Cold

:11:14.:11:20.

War and he believes that Crimea and particularly the base is essential

:11:21.:11:24.

to the old Russian empire which he continues to seek. How do you

:11:25.:11:28.

respond to western powers who will rule out military I engagment, or

:11:29.:11:37.

indeed tough financial sanctions? I rule out military action, it is just

:11:38.:11:45.

not an option that would be viable. This is the result of five years

:11:46.:11:53.

niave relations with Russia. If the Europeans decide that the economic

:11:54.:12:00.

considerations are too important to then impose severe sanctions on

:12:01.:12:07.

Vladimir Putin, which you get from the statement from Angela Merkel

:12:08.:12:13.

today, then they are ignoring the lessons of history. If Vladimir

:12:14.:12:20.

Putin is allowed to take this Crimea, because of protecting

:12:21.:12:25.

"Russian population", do you remember back in the 1930s when

:12:26.:12:31.

Hitler took Czechoslovakia and other places because of the German

:12:32.:12:35.

population, and finally could I say there are significant Russian

:12:36.:12:38.

populations in the Baltic countries and Poland and Romania. Russia will

:12:39.:12:46.

say at this point that the west stood by whilst a democratically

:12:47.:12:49.

elected Government in Ukraine was overthrown, not even stood by, but

:12:50.:12:54.

supported that coup? I think that when you see what Yanukovych did

:12:55.:13:00.

with his corruption and his repression and killing of people, he

:13:01.:13:05.

forfeited all legitimacy in the eyes of anybody who has been objective

:13:06.:13:10.

view. They can say that pigs fly, but the fact that Yanukovych

:13:11.:13:15.

forfeited any claim he may have it to governing the country. Tonight we

:13:16.:13:19.

saw developments from the UK Government, inadvertently, that

:13:20.:13:22.

showed they were not for now supporting trade sanctions or

:13:23.:13:26.

closing the financial centre to Russians, is that the right

:13:27.:13:30.

approach? Of course not. Of course not. I'm not astonished, to be frank

:13:31.:13:39.

with you. Disappointed but not astonished. Here in the United

:13:40.:13:43.

States we have a bill which targets people with sanctions and with

:13:44.:13:50.

penalties who are responsible. We can renew the missile defence

:13:51.:13:55.

systems that we abandoned in an attempt to appease Putin and in the

:13:56.:14:01.

Czech Republic and Poland. I think we can do a lot of things, if

:14:02.:14:04.

necessary, unilaterally. Thank you very much indeed for your time for

:14:05.:14:08.

joining us this evening. Our diplomatic editor joins me now,

:14:09.:14:13.

and we have also been looking at the market implications. There is

:14:14.:14:18.

diplomatic embarrassment here, certainly for the Government from

:14:19.:14:23.

those documents that were spied, that essentially, removed some key

:14:24.:14:27.

tools? Well, you have a situation and let as face it, it is not a new

:14:28.:14:33.

one, where the members of the EU in particular, there was a foreign

:14:34.:14:36.

ministers meeting today in Brussels of the EU not agreeing on the way

:14:37.:14:40.

forward. You have Poland in particular in both EU and NATO

:14:41.:14:44.

insitsing that people address this -- insisting that people address

:14:45.:14:47.

this question and in a resolute American. On the other side of the

:14:48.:14:53.

equation we know in this meeting, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands

:14:54.:14:59.

were all against taking sanctions against Russia. Having heard all

:15:00.:15:02.

that we see the documents, glimpsed on the way into Downing Street for a

:15:03.:15:05.

National Security Council meeting, excluding on the one hand anything

:15:06.:15:09.

that would have a negative effect on trade relations between the two

:15:10.:15:13.

countries, and then, with regard to what NATO might do, ruling out even

:15:14.:15:19.

planning for some sort of military preparation. Even the window

:15:20.:15:23.

dressing, if you like, was ruled out by the British Government. In this

:15:24.:15:26.

situation, once again, we look at precedents like the Balkan wars,

:15:27.:15:30.

people will look to the Americans, and judging from the language being

:15:31.:15:34.

used in the UN tonight by their ambassador and by President Obama

:15:35.:15:38.

today, there is more likely to be some substantive American movement

:15:39.:15:45.

on this issue, perhaps Magnitski act or clauses, perhaps something that

:15:46.:15:49.

goes the G8 issue. I think we should look to Washington in the next day

:15:50.:15:54.

or two on this. Laura, I'm wondering how relevant any of these threened

:15:55.:15:58.

sanctions are from bodies and Governments when the facts on the

:15:59.:16:03.

ground in terms of the markets are so stark? As the diplomacy grinds

:16:04.:16:08.

away ineffectively, the markets are different, they are live beasts. We

:16:09.:16:12.

have seen a harsher verdict on what is going on and Putin's credibility.

:16:13.:16:18.

The rouble fell to record lose, Russian stocks had huge amounts of

:16:19.:16:23.

money wiped off them. On the streets of Russian cities there were stories

:16:24.:16:29.

of exchange booths running out of dollars, as some Russians themselves

:16:30.:16:34.

sought to get their roubles out and turn them into a safe currency. We

:16:35.:16:37.

are kidding ourselves if we think this is some how happening in

:16:38.:16:40.

isolation. One former director of the Bank of England says he thinks

:16:41.:16:45.

it is certain Ukraine will default. One of our biggest companies, BP,

:16:46.:16:51.

huge stakeholder in the biggest oil company in the world. It lost huge

:16:52.:16:56.

amounts of value from its company today. The biggest thing is oil

:16:57.:17:00.

prices, already in the last couple of weeks they have been shoved up.

:17:01.:17:06.

That has been impact on almost everything, our FTSE, the French,

:17:07.:17:11.

the German markets. The markets are nervy and they don't like it. This

:17:12.:17:16.

is hurting Russia too, what does Putin's end game become. We have

:17:17.:17:22.

heard several things where is it going? The whole question is so

:17:23.:17:26.

repleat with history. We saw in Gabriel Gatehouse's report, the

:17:27.:17:29.

sense in which Ukraine and Crimea are part of Russia's history. There

:17:30.:17:34.

are people in Russia who want to reabsorb the country, that is

:17:35.:17:37.

clearly not on the cards in the near future. I think the key things that

:17:38.:17:40.

Russia wants in the near future is to have an important influence in

:17:41.:17:44.

the shaping of this country and of the Government that follows. Some

:17:45.:17:48.

people think they are trying to get the constitution turned into a more

:17:49.:17:53.

federal one, where Russian speak he is in the east of the country have

:17:54.:17:57.

far more -- speakers in the east of the country have far more influence

:17:58.:18:01.

and can influence decision making in the Ukraine. With Crimea with

:18:02.:18:06.

separate status within Ukraine, the question has to be open whether that

:18:07.:18:10.

will be in some sense absorbed by Russia. That's the theory, what do

:18:11.:18:15.

those on the front line make of it. Joining me down the line from Kiev

:18:16.:18:21.

is Ukraine's interim economics minister. Was there an ultimatum,

:18:22.:18:30.

what did you understand by it earlier today? Can you repeat the

:18:31.:18:35.

question once again? We understood there was an ultimatum issued from

:18:36.:18:40.

Russia? It seems like the ultimatum has expired and nothing serious has

:18:41.:18:46.

happened. We survived the first ultimatum, it is not the first and

:18:47.:18:50.

won't be the last one. How do you read what Russia has done so far? We

:18:51.:19:00.

read if that is not an intervention, then what is? How will you respond?

:19:01.:19:08.

We respond like during the last week, keeping calm, we believe that

:19:09.:19:15.

this escalation has to be deescalated. Exclusively and only

:19:16.:19:19.

through the peaceful means. Through negotiations, through the

:19:20.:19:22.

discussions, we want to figure out what is the reason of this

:19:23.:19:31.

escalation. The Ukraine is governing itself. Like any other nation it

:19:32.:19:35.

discusses in a democratic way, we don't really understand why Russia

:19:36.:19:41.

is so concerned. Russia is on your military base, do you call that

:19:42.:19:49.

negotiation? Well we do not particularly like that Russia is at

:19:50.:19:54.

our military bases, it should be at its own military base. How far will

:19:55.:20:04.

you let Russia go before you take action we really hope that Russia

:20:05.:20:10.

will seize these actions. These unfriendly actions. Come on, we live

:20:11.:20:17.

together, virtually peacefully almost through the whole history

:20:18.:20:28.

that we had. We are brotherly and orthodox nations, so I think that it

:20:29.:20:32.

is some kind of you know, we treat it as some kind of misunderstanding

:20:33.:20:42.

maybe Russia did not read properly the signals and events happening in

:20:43.:20:47.

Kiev. For some reason they took it as the offence against them as if

:20:48.:20:52.

they were moving completely westward, against Russia, which is

:20:53.:20:57.

absolutely not true. What was happening in the main square in

:20:58.:21:01.

Midan is our absolutely internal issue, we were just protesting

:21:02.:21:09.

against the corruption and against the violation of human rights and

:21:10.:21:13.

actually killing human lives. That is what we are protesting against.

:21:14.:21:17.

Let me just clarify then, it sounds from what you are saying that you

:21:18.:21:23.

are ruling out any kind of military response to what is going that there

:21:24.:21:28.

now, is that right? The Ukrainian Government does not plan to use any

:21:29.:21:36.

kind of military response because we do not believe it is the right way

:21:37.:21:40.

to solve the issue. This issue should be solved only through

:21:41.:21:43.

peaceful means. We are being provoked already for five or six

:21:44.:21:51.

days, and I really command the calm and the strength of the Ukrainian

:21:52.:21:58.

forces that did not allow to be provoked.

:21:59.:22:04.

Let's hear now from the Kremlin former adviser, and Ming Campbell.

:22:05.:22:11.

We did have the former US Ambassador but he has sadly just left our

:22:12.:22:15.

studio without an explanation, perhaps we can shed a bit more light

:22:16.:22:21.

on that. You have heard the charge against you, five or six days of

:22:22.:22:27.

provokation on sovereign Ukraine land. What is Russia doing there?

:22:28.:22:32.

First of all you are forgetting that we have had a coup in Kiev. Which

:22:33.:22:40.

was financed and encouraged and senator McCain was there during the

:22:41.:22:44.

protests, encouraging those protesters to continue. With

:22:45.:22:48.

protesters killed on the streets? And protestors shooting at police,

:22:49.:22:52.

and by the way 20 police dead means protesters were armed. We have to

:22:53.:22:59.

stop and count the dead people. I think the problem here is this,

:23:00.:23:03.

everyone is asking what is President Putin's end game, I would like to

:23:04.:23:15.

ask in return what is the west's end gam What is the end game of the

:23:16.:23:18.

Government in now in Ukraine because it was waiting for billions to come

:23:19.:23:23.

from the west. And now it doesn't know what to do. All day the

:23:24.:23:29.

ultimatum the western press was banging on about, it was denied by

:23:30.:23:33.

the minister of defence in Russia and said it was nonsense, yet it was

:23:34.:23:37.

reported all day. You are showing the Security Council of the UN

:23:38.:23:40.

gathering, who called for that meeting? Russia, not a word

:23:41.:23:45.

anywhere. Let me set something straight, Yanukovych wrote to Russia

:23:46.:23:49.

saying military action is visible in the Ukraine in Crimea, is this is

:23:50.:23:54.

what happened? Yanukovych it doesn't matter what he wrote. He was the

:23:55.:23:58.

legitimate President and Joan thrown by a coup. What he wrote, if he was

:23:59.:24:03.

a legitimate President what he wrote was obviously of significance. What

:24:04.:24:07.

do we want? We want the people of Ukraine to have the opportunity to

:24:08.:24:11.

determine their own future without the influence of Russia. And of

:24:12.:24:17.

course we know, last time round, it was south Ossetia, there is always

:24:18.:24:30.

an excuse for intervention for political reasons. I think it is

:24:31.:24:35.

inexcusable in the UK that a document is photographed going into

:24:36.:24:37.

Downing Street. It is particularly significant in this case, since

:24:38.:24:42.

military options are ruled out and there are not many shots in the

:24:43.:24:45.

locker but economic sanctions would be one of those. That was foolish on

:24:46.:24:49.

two counts? You show your hand in a democratic exchange of this kind

:24:50.:24:53.

uncertainty is enormously important and significant. Particularly when

:24:54.:24:59.

we hear that the Moscow Stock Exchange has collapsed and the

:25:00.:25:02.

rouble is under severe pressure, the economy is the soft underbelly of

:25:03.:25:06.

Russia in this matter. I wonder how you think this is going for Putin

:25:07.:25:11.

now, when you look at the state of Gazprom shares or the rouble, is

:25:12.:25:16.

this going according to plan? Putin had to respond. It would have been

:25:17.:25:21.

political suicide for Putin not to respond. It could be economic

:25:22.:25:27.

suicide the way he's going? That would be a disaster. A

:25:28.:25:32.

western-backed coup would have been a disaster. A western-backed

:25:33.:25:40.

disaster? The credibility of the country is not based on President

:25:41.:25:43.

Putin. There is a breach of the United Nations charter, they are

:25:44.:25:46.

talking about regime change. These are the very people when it came to

:25:47.:25:52.

President Assad's regime in Syria, allow me to finish. What about Libya

:25:53.:25:58.

and Syria. Let him finish his point. You can't talk about that on Ukraine

:25:59.:26:02.

on your conscience there is Iraq, Libya and Syria, I'm sorry. I have a

:26:03.:26:06.

conscience about Iraq and I will not take any challenge to the contrary

:26:07.:26:10.

from you. But these are the people who when it came to trying to deal

:26:11.:26:15.

with President Assad's regime said they, went out of their way to veto

:26:16.:26:22.

or said they would veto any suitable UN resolution. Why? Because they

:26:23.:26:25.

said it would amount to regime change, they are practising regime

:26:26.:26:29.

change at the moment. There is me moral authority with Putin's actions

:26:30.:26:33.

it looked like bare-chested thuggery? No it doesn't, nobody is

:26:34.:26:36.

planning to invade. They have invaded. So this is not invasion? Of

:26:37.:26:41.

course it is not an invasion. What do you call this when you occupy or

:26:42.:26:46.

stand on the edge of every single military installation? I would call

:26:47.:26:52.

an invasion is Kiev when armed thugs were killing policemen and troops.

:26:53.:26:57.

Did you hear any shot fired in Crimea, or anyone hurt or anything.

:26:58.:27:01.

The reason the bases are surrounded because in other cities in the

:27:02.:27:05.

Ukraine they stole arms from those bases. This is a very strange set of

:27:06.:27:11.

affairs, we have not had one shot? That's a good thing. We shouldn't be

:27:12.:27:15.

surprised by that. Of course I'm responding to this here? Because in

:27:16.:27:19.

circumstances like those we are talking about, provokation or

:27:20.:27:23.

miscalculation can result in a shot. If we have one shot we will probably

:27:24.:27:28.

have a conflag grace. Does it tell you that Putin's approach is a

:27:29.:27:32.

benign one if he doesn't want to make sure of the people of Crimea? I

:27:33.:27:38.

must say the use of the word "benign" in these circumstances does

:27:39.:27:44.

take me aback. The garrisons are being surrounded, people are being

:27:45.:27:48.

told by their commanding officer they have to give up their loyalty

:27:49.:27:54.

to Kiev, give up their loyalty to Ukraine and subordinate that loyalty

:27:55.:27:58.

to Putin and those acting on his behalf. That is not benign in any

:27:59.:28:02.

circumstance. Where is safe, if Crimea is not safe from this kind of

:28:03.:28:07.

approach, where else in the Ukraine is safe, are there any borders?

:28:08.:28:12.

Crimea is part of the country. Because not a single time in the

:28:13.:28:15.

past the people of Crimea were given a chance for a referendum,

:28:16.:28:23.

Khrushchev, a murderous thug, hold on, threw away Crimea to the

:28:24.:28:28.

Ukraine, you know why? Because he killed and presided over the MRDers

:28:29.:28:33.

of so many Ukrainians, he had to give them a President. Nobody asked

:28:34.:28:39.

the people in Crimea where theyn't wanted to be, they were given them

:28:40.:28:43.

away. Nobody asked the people of Georgia, or South Ossetia, they

:28:44.:28:48.

should have been the subject of a Russian takeover. I'm sorry. They

:28:49.:28:54.

were provoked. It was with American money and weapons. They were

:28:55.:28:57.

provoked into doing it, you know that.

:28:58.:29:00.

We will leave it there, thank you very much we understand that John

:29:01.:29:04.

Bolton had a prior engagment he had to hurry away to.

:29:05.:29:09.

The English are obsessed with their old school, suggested the Education

:29:10.:29:12.

Secretary today, calling the habit an English disease. Michael Gove

:29:13.:29:17.

defended the number of old Eatonians in the cabinet, and said it was

:29:18.:29:21.

indefensible that so many actors and board members were privately

:29:22.:29:24.

educated. He dismissed his critics of state schools as being a bit di

:29:25.:29:29.

As far as higher education is going on the visit to Formula One

:29:30.:29:34.

manufacturers, McLaren, he told us that middle-class parents should

:29:35.:29:39.

aspire for their children to be apprentices and insists businesses

:29:40.:29:42.

provided more places. You have said this morning there is no excuse for

:29:43.:29:46.

businesses not to take on apprentices, what happens if they

:29:47.:29:49.

don't? Business has said in the past, apprenticeships have been too

:29:50.:29:54.

bureaucratic and the method of funding apprenticeships hasn't

:29:55.:29:56.

necessarily suited us. We have removed that. There is no excuse.

:29:57.:30:00.

And if businesses choose not to engage they will have to justify

:30:01.:30:04.

themselves in the public square. Should there be any comeback. You

:30:05.:30:09.

say they ought to justify themselves in the public square, what do you

:30:10.:30:12.

mean, should there be comeback for those who want to engage? It

:30:13.:30:15.

shouldn't be that we penalise them, it is in the self-interest of any

:30:16.:30:21.

company to engage with the apprenticeship programme. We should

:30:22.:30:24.

ask business what they are doing to play a bigger part in the education

:30:25.:30:28.

system. In policy terms I would say it is a nudge rather than a direct

:30:29.:30:34.

intervention. If you look at a Rolls-Royce or British air he row

:30:35.:30:42.

space apprenticeships, it is better to go there than a university. It is

:30:43.:30:47.

a superior option to university, it provides not just an experience of

:30:48.:30:50.

the work place and income, but also with the level of intellectual

:30:51.:30:53.

challenge greater than some universities. Many apprenticeships

:30:54.:30:58.

are noin that sphere. Today advertised on the Internet swathes

:30:59.:31:05.

of apprenticeships, they were jobs but are now apprenticeships paying

:31:06.:31:10.

?2. 90. Are you saying you want parents to aspire to that for their

:31:11.:31:13.

children in the same way as they would aspire to universities?

:31:14.:31:18.

Absolutely situate rite that parents should want their children to have

:31:19.:31:21.

the option certainly to go to university, at the same time I don't

:31:22.:31:24.

think there is anything wrong and there is a lot that's admirable

:31:25.:31:27.

about saying you want to experience the world of work. You are in a

:31:28.:31:32.

sense trying to change aspiration. You in your speech made a link

:31:33.:31:37.

between vocational and academic education and working and

:31:38.:31:40.

middle-class children. It is a class issue isn't it? We have had, I

:31:41.:31:46.

think, a damaging view in this country that success, narrowly

:31:47.:31:50.

designed as academic success, is only available to a limited number.

:31:51.:31:55.

As you know, that view doesn't hold and hasn't held in other countries

:31:56.:31:59.

from Scotland to Singapore. It is not a class issue, it is an England

:32:00.:32:04.

issue. It is one we have to overcome if we're going to make sure that

:32:05.:32:08.

every child achieves their full potential. Specifically an English

:32:09.:32:13.

issue in your view? It is an English problem that we have not valued the

:32:14.:32:16.

practical and technical in the same way as we value the academic. I

:32:17.:32:23.

think it is an English issue that we have an unequal education system,

:32:24.:32:26.

with opportunity distributed in such a way as to mean that children who

:32:27.:32:30.

go to independent fee-paying schools and the best state schools have many

:32:31.:32:33.

more opportunities than children who have gone to other state schools,

:32:34.:32:36.

but that is changing. Some people might suggest that the picture has

:32:37.:32:41.

gone into reverse around the cabinet table, even many of your own MPs

:32:42.:32:46.

believe that the very top bracket of politics, the cabinet table and the

:32:47.:32:49.

Prime Minister's team is far too dominated by those who have been

:32:50.:32:53.

privately educated? It is a consequence, isn't t of the

:32:54.:32:55.

education system that we have inherited. David Cameron isn't

:32:56.:32:58.

responsible for the school to which he went, neither is George Osborne.

:32:59.:33:04.

The fact that we had social mobility go backwards in this country was a

:33:05.:33:07.

consequence of some mistic it is a we made in the education system in

:33:08.:33:13.

the 1960s and 1970s. Are you suggesting there aren't people with

:33:14.:33:17.

equivalent abilities in the rest of the Conservative Party. There are

:33:18.:33:19.

many Conservative backbenchers who argue this is a problem? There are

:33:20.:33:24.

certainly people, it is an English disease to pay too close attention

:33:25.:33:28.

to where someone went to school, but, since we are, if you are

:33:29.:33:34.

sitting round the cabinet stable, then some of the voices who are most

:33:35.:33:38.

influential come from those people who have not come from guilded and

:33:39.:33:44.

privileged backgrounds. It is defensible to have so many private

:33:45.:33:48.

companies run by public schoolgirls and boys. Is it defensible that so

:33:49.:33:54.

many actors, sports stars to whom our children are encouraged to

:33:55.:33:59.

aspire come from private schools. It is not defensible, of course, so we

:34:00.:34:03.

need to change. Does it disappoint you that the warm-up for the next

:34:04.:34:07.

Conservative leadership contest, which is evidenced all over the

:34:08.:34:11.

place now also seems to be playing out between two public school boys?

:34:12.:34:16.

I'm not aware of any speculation about leadership other than the

:34:17.:34:19.

choice between David Cameron and Ed Miliband in the next election.

:34:20.:34:24.

Haven't you been reading the papers? You will have to quote me the

:34:25.:34:29.

speculation, the only leadership question that counts is whether or

:34:30.:34:32.

not we want David Cameron or Ed Miliband leading this country after

:34:33.:34:35.

the next election. You described in this speech this extraordinary place

:34:36.:34:40.

as being like a Bond villain's layer. Do you care that quite

:34:41.:34:44.

significant swathes of the educational establishment,

:34:45.:34:47.

professional people, see you as a bit of a villain in terms of what

:34:48.:34:52.

you are doing, does it bother you? I don't go out of my way to solicit or

:34:53.:34:57.

invite opposition, you will never get unanimity about any set of

:34:58.:35:01.

political changes until after the politician driving them through has

:35:02.:35:07.

long left the field. The argument I find is that some people say

:35:08.:35:11.

sometimes your changes are too great in scope and introduced too rapidly.

:35:12.:35:15.

But no-one, that I'm a ware of, has been -- aware of has been able to

:35:16.:35:18.

argue against higher standards in schools, more autonomy for head

:35:19.:35:26.

teachers, and or rigorous exams. The opposition you allude to tend to be

:35:27.:35:32.

the inertia of defenders of the status quo, rather than a desection

:35:33.:35:39.

of anything we are doing. -- desection of anything we are doing.

:35:40.:35:43.

She was the biggest thing to come out of Benefits Street, a Channel

:35:44.:35:48.

four reality show that showed one street in Birmingham that rocked to

:35:49.:35:53.

infamy. Today we ask White Dee, the self-styled mother of the street

:35:54.:35:56.

what she made of the show and how it has changed her life and community.

:35:57.:36:07.

She has been described as the Queen of Benefits Street, the one-woman

:36:08.:36:12.

citizens advice bureau, and the patron saint of drug addicts and

:36:13.:36:17.

dropouts. White Dee became the star of Benefits Street with their fourth

:36:18.:36:20.

right advice on everything, from staying sober to dealing with the

:36:21.:36:25.

benefits office. Suspending your claim because there is a change in

:36:26.:36:28.

your income. Don't worry about it. The self-pro-claimed mother of

:36:29.:36:32.

Benefits Street, a convicted street who has been out of work for seven

:36:33.:36:36.

years, has divided opinion and generated headlines almost as much

:36:37.:36:41.

as the series itself. Since it has broadcast, the show has triggered

:36:42.:36:45.

impassions debate, about the exploitation of poor people for

:36:46.:36:49.

entertainment, the rights and wrongs of the benefit system in its

:36:50.:36:54.

entirety. And whether or not the show's protaganists were misled

:36:55.:36:58.

about the show. It was clear about the nature of the programme, why

:36:59.:37:03.

they were and the end product. What does the unlikely celebrity at the

:37:04.:37:07.

heart of it, now with a PR manager, calling her a "working-class hero",

:37:08.:37:13.

really feel about how they were portrayed. With news of a music

:37:14.:37:17.

deal, a plus size modelling opportunity and Big Brother house,

:37:18.:37:25.

and a chance to become an MP, what now for White Dee and her benefits.

:37:26.:37:33.

How has your life changed over the last couple of months? It hasn't

:37:34.:37:37.

personally changed in the way that I'm still, you know, I'm still a mum

:37:38.:37:42.

of two children. But it is like being thrown into the limelight when

:37:43.:37:46.

you are just not completely, you are not used to it at all, is just a

:37:47.:37:54.

real shock. Does it feel like -- Does it feel like things are better

:37:55.:38:01.

or worse? Busier, I wouldn't say better. Everyone knows you, the

:38:02.:38:05.

street has turned into a bit of a tourist attraction. You cannot drive

:38:06.:38:09.

up and down that road on a Saturday or a Sunday. So this is the poverty

:38:10.:38:17.

porn in action is it, do you understand why that phrase came

:38:18.:38:22.

about? Not particularly. We still dispute the fact and we would argue

:38:23.:38:28.

to Channel four that at no time whatsoever did they tell us it was

:38:29.:38:36.

in any way related to benefits. With regards to "poverty porn", we don't

:38:37.:38:41.

class ourselves as in poverty. We are fine we survive with the help

:38:42.:38:45.

and support of each other. So they never told you it was about

:38:46.:38:49.

benefits? No they did not. When did they tell you it was going to be

:38:50.:38:53.

called Benefits Street? About two weeks before the show aired. It

:38:54.:38:59.

wasn't done officially. Somebody just let slip that it was called

:39:00.:39:02.

Benefits Street and that's when we all went absolutely mad. We went...

:39:03.:39:08.

What did you think it would be called? They asked us for

:39:09.:39:12.

suggestions as to what maybe we think the show would be called. Some

:39:13.:39:18.

said Friends With Benefits, others said We Will Survive. The kids made

:39:19.:39:25.

their Ghetto This, the teenagers. Why bother asking us if they knew

:39:26.:39:28.

what they were going to call it. When you found out it was going to

:39:29.:39:31.

be called Benefits Street, you said you went mad. Did anyone try to

:39:32.:39:37.

change that or pull the show or step in? Obviously we hadn't viewed the

:39:38.:39:43.

episodes by the time, when we actually found out it was going to

:39:44.:39:47.

be called benefits street. We did make calls to Channel four and Love

:39:48.:39:52.

Production. Not just me a few of the residents. At the end of the day

:39:53.:39:55.

they had named the show what they wanted to name the show. So no

:39:56.:39:59.

matter what we did, they had no intentions of pulling it or renaming

:40:00.:40:04.

it. They told us that this was a fair and balanced reflection of life

:40:05.:40:07.

on the street, would you go with that? No. What would you call it?

:40:08.:40:14.

How could it be fair and balanced when basically all they are doing is

:40:15.:40:19.

focussing on four or five people. Most of the people they have

:40:20.:40:23.

focussed on don't actually live on the street. They spent time with

:40:24.:40:31.

many a working couple, pensioners. So they didn't live on the street?

:40:32.:40:36.

No, they did, but quite a few people that were shown in the programme

:40:37.:40:41.

don't live on the street. They told us that contributors were briefed

:40:42.:40:51.

extensively before the show was aired. And they had been in regular

:40:52.:40:56.

contact since? They didn't brief us extensively about the name of the

:40:57.:40:59.

show. They briefed you about the show? No, basically we have a local

:41:00.:41:04.

councillor who has written confirmation saying the show is

:41:05.:41:09.

about community spirit. There are quite a few people who have it in

:41:10.:41:13.

writing what the show was supposedly about and it wasn't benefits. At the

:41:14.:41:18.

end of this experience, how do you view Channel 4 and the show itself

:41:19.:41:27.

then? They were very clever. Obviously we can't regret. We have

:41:28.:41:32.

done it, it has happened. People are talking about it. But basically I

:41:33.:41:36.

think it is just the fact that it is sort of them against us. You know.

:41:37.:41:45.

We have no reason to lie, you never said it to us. Did they lie to you?

:41:46.:41:50.

Yes they did. People will be watching this and saying you, many

:41:51.:41:54.

on your street have done pretty well from this, you have rocketed to

:41:55.:41:59.

fame, you must be making money from this now aren't you? Not

:42:00.:42:05.

necessarily. It is, a lot of people do presume, they presume that the

:42:06.:42:09.

second you appear on the telly, all of a sudden you are getting money.

:42:10.:42:14.

It doesn't work like that. Am I getting paid for sitting here

:42:15.:42:17.

tonight? Your agent said that you have had a lot of offers as a result

:42:18.:42:22.

of this? I have had a lot of offers, yeah. Are those offers that you are

:42:23.:42:26.

getting paid for? Not all of them, no. But you are getting paid now? If

:42:27.:42:32.

I accepted the offers then yes I would, I haven't accepted anything

:42:33.:42:36.

at all at the moment. So you haven't made any money yet from this? As of

:42:37.:42:43.

this precise moment in time, no. Why not? Because I don't know, it is

:42:44.:42:51.

like if someone offers me to go on a radio station, basically I will go

:42:52.:42:55.

on the radio station. I'm having to justify myself. And say what you

:42:56.:43:02.

have seen is a little bit of my life. You are still on benefits now,

:43:03.:43:11.

do you intend to stay on benefits? Not if I start getting an income. Is

:43:12.:43:15.

that the direction you would like to go in now, you would like to earn

:43:16.:43:20.

money from this now and come off benefits? Not necessarily from this.

:43:21.:43:23.

But obviously I would like to get a job, yeah. A lot of people will be

:43:24.:43:29.

watching and saying hang on a second, you are on ?214 a week, why

:43:30.:43:35.

carry on claiming those when you, offers have been coming in, we know,

:43:36.:43:39.

we have spoken to your agent that says there are offers on the table

:43:40.:43:43.

now which could mean you could leave the life behind, why wouldn't you

:43:44.:43:48.

take that? I don't want to leave my life behind. Your life on benefits

:43:49.:43:51.

though? That is a different kettle of fish. Just because there are

:43:52.:43:55.

offers on the table it doesn't mean I'm going to get money today,

:43:56.:43:59.

tomorrow or next week. But you are still getting money from the

:44:00.:44:03.

taxpayer then as things stand? I'm still on benefits because I'm not

:44:04.:44:06.

receiving any other income at the moment. You have been asked to be on

:44:07.:44:10.

Big Brother, is that something you will take up? Not necessarily. I

:44:11.:44:15.

have a lot to think about, it is like they have approached, they

:44:16.:44:20.

haven't made any offer. I don't know any figures involved. I haven't

:44:21.:44:24.

signed anything. What about other jobs, the doors must be open to you

:44:25.:44:28.

to do a lot of other things now. Are you applying for other jobs now? I'm

:44:29.:44:34.

not applying for jobs at the moment. I still have my down days and up

:44:35.:44:44.

days. I have just been thrown into the public and I just I'm not 100%

:44:45.:44:49.

sure how to cope with it, I have never been in this situation before

:44:50.:44:54.

with people wanting to talk to you and interview you and I have just

:44:55.:45:03.

never, you know, it at thes completely new to me -- it's

:45:04.:45:07.

completely new to me. Thank you for coming and talking to

:45:08.:45:11.

us. We're going to take you through a look at some of the papers before

:45:12.:45:18.

we da tonight. There is one which has taken the front page of the

:45:19.:45:24.

Daily Mail. Child porn Number Ten aide arrested. They are saying one

:45:25.:45:28.

of David Cameron's closest aides has resigned after being arrested on

:45:29.:45:33.

child pornography allegations. Perhaps we can go to Laura. You have

:45:34.:45:38.

been looking at this, can you shed any more light? Number Ten has

:45:39.:45:45.

confirmed that one of David Cameron's advisers, Patrick Rock,

:45:46.:45:49.

the deputy director of policy was arrested in the middle of last month

:45:50.:45:54.

over allegations of child pornography and potential abuses

:45:55.:45:59.

relating to child abuse imagery. He resigned immediately and not in his

:46:00.:46:03.

post, Number Ten has arranged for police officers to go in and look at

:46:04.:46:07.

files or IT that they see as being appropriate. From what we understand

:46:08.:46:12.

there were previous allegations of harassment made against Mr Rock

:46:13.:46:15.

while he was working in Downing Street where he has been since 2011.

:46:16.:46:21.

Not associated to these potential charges, but interesting

:46:22.:46:26.

nonetheless. This is tricky, embarrassing loss for Number Ten.

:46:27.:46:30.

Not just because of the humiliation of the police having to go into

:46:31.:46:35.

Downing Street over such kinds of allegations and also because when he

:46:36.:46:39.

went into Downing Street he was seen as someone well trusted. He had been

:46:40.:46:42.

in the Conservative Party for a long time and had been close to David

:46:43.:46:47.

Cameron for a long time. They were special advisers together back in

:46:48.:46:51.

the late 1990s. This is an embarrassment and blow for the Prime

:46:52.:46:56.

Minister. , the I arrest of his -- the arrest of his fixer, Patrick

:46:57.:47:03.

Rock. Any word from him th evening? No official statement. One of the

:47:04.:47:07.

things that makes it doubly awkward is he was involved in advising the

:47:08.:47:12.

Prime Minister on child internet pornography. Anything awkward but

:47:13.:47:15.

right to point out we have no official statement from Mr Rock

:47:16.:47:20.

himself. That is all for tonight, but Kirsty is here with much more

:47:21.:47:26.

tomorrow. From all of us here good night.

:47:27.:47:30.

A live report from Russian-controlled Crimea and the latest from the government in Kiev.

Plus, Michael Gove on what he calls the 'English disease' - judging people by the school they went to - and White Dee from Benefits Street.