06/03/2014 Newsnight


06/03/2014

The former cop who says he infiltrated the Stephen Lawrence campaign to help stop it. Ukraine and the EU. Immigration. The man who invented Bitcoin (allegedly).


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Transcript


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Tonight, the match put in police officer who says he was sent

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undercover inside the campaign to get justice for Stephen Lawrence.

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What was he doing? The thing early on was to find any intelligence to

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stop the campaign. Stephen Lawrence's father, Neville

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Lawrence, will give his reaction. What are the limits of undercover

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policing in Britain? In Brussels, despite the pressure,

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the EU is finding sanctions against Iran or Syria is one thing, putting

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them into practice is another. It is not easy to get your's 28 leaders to

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agree on anything. They were in danger of being taken over by

:00:55.:00:58.

events. This, believe it or not, is a

:00:59.:01:04.

visualisation of how Bitcoin has evolved since its birth five years

:01:05.:01:08.

ago. What is missing is the face of its creator. That has always been a

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mystery. Has it now been sold? Good evening. The Lawrence family

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must wonder if they will ever find the truth out about their son's

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Stephen's death and the Metropolitan Police investigation into it.

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Today's report by Mark Ellison is a disaster for the Met. Theresa May

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called it profoundly shocking and truly chilling. Mr Ellison found

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that an undercover police officer infiltrated the Lawrence family

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group, spying on them in the run-up to the MacPherson Inquiry and he

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also discovered evidence to suspect that one of the detectives on the

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original investigation, Detective Sergeant John Davidson, acted

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corruptly. There is now to be in new judge-led enquiry and Dame Doreen

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Lawrence has called for proceedings against officers involved. Here is

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Jim Reed. It is more than two decades since a

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teenage boy was stabbed to death by a group of racist thugs in south

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London. Stephen Lawrence would be 40 years old this year. What has

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happened since his murder has told us something about how British

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society has changed and maybe how much it has not. It has taken nearly

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21 years since Stephen was killed and the fact that we as a family...

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Had to go through all this and still there is more to come out. Today's

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damning report is the latest embarrassment for the Metropolitan

:02:56.:03:00.

Police in this case. Already labelled institutionally racist and

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ineffectual, it was confirmed today that the force infiltrated groups to

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spy on the family. Just an hour after the report went online, the

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Home Secretary was on her feet to announce a public enquiry into the

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use of undercover officers. Undercover officers, sometimes

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working in difficult and dangerous conditions have helped bring

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criminals to justice. They have stopped bad things happening in our

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country. But the Ellison Review reveals very real and substantial

:03:31.:03:35.

failings. The picture which emerges about the SDS from this report, and

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from other material in the public domain, is of significant failings

:03:41.:03:47.

of judgement, intrusive supervision and leadership. Under the spotlight

:03:48.:03:52.

now is that Special Branch unit, the SDS, which was meant to come back --

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combat domestic extremism. One of those has told us he was ordered to

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undermine the Stephen Lawrence campaign. The day-to-day thing early

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on was to find any information, any intelligence which could be used to

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stop the campaign. It was felt by the police at that time, that that

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disorder was, the campaign was being taken over by militant groups and it

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was causing potential for disorder on a vast scale. So any intelligence

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that could be used to stop the campaign, that is what they wanted

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from me. Even more serious word the actions of another SDS officer,

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still known only by his code number. According to today's report, they

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infiltrated groups close to Stephen Lawrence's parents and reported back

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with personal evidence about the family. The presence of this

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undercover officer was highly questionable. In particular, the Met

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was strongly criticised for arranging a meeting between this

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bike and a senior officer, drafting a response into the MacPherson

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Inquiry into the handling of the original investigation. One of the

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men who raped the final MacPherson report described the actions of the

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police as deplorable. What you are asking for is the damage to the

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enquiry is the police were spending time about how they could defend

:05:30.:05:33.

themselves rather than assuming the investigation. The goal was to find

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better ways for policing. A second report into undercover policing

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today found no evidence that police officers had intentionally smeared

:05:46.:05:51.

the Lawrence family. We do recognise that allegations like this go to the

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heart of people's trust enough as a police service. We are absolutely

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clear that the work we have been doing over a number of years and the

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work we have collectively done is around trying to maintain high

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levels of trust and confidence in policing in London. But the role of

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undercover officers there is much wider than the case of Stephen

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Lawrence. It was at a safe house here in this blog in west London,

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that members of the SDS or special demonstrations quad net to share

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stories. Some were embedded with extreme right-wing groups, others

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with environmental esters or animal-rights activists. Their role

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was so secret that some senior police officers had no idea they

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were next listed. The SDS was formed in 1968, in the wake of anti-Vietnam

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War demos to infiltrate home-grown protest groups. By the 90s, the

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target had switched to political activists. Among the most

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controversial allegations, the claim that one of the operatives planted

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an incendiary device on behalf of animal-rights protesters, and the

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undercover police officer Mark Kennedy had sexual relations with

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several women during the time he was with environmentalists. We felt we

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were outside the law but we felt we were protected by another law, the

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national secrets act. -- official secrets act. When some of our

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officers transgressed into areas of criminality, and were investigated

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by the uniform side, they always had the official secrets act blanket to

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stop any serious investigation taking place. The enquiry will also

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look into the allegation that the names of 42 dead children were used

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to create undercover identities. In 2008, a group of environmental

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activists were arrested. In a freight train at the Drax power

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station. There are rich and was quashed when it emerged that

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evidence was used with false identities. There are about 110

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former officers, almost every one of them have got skeletons somewhere.

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You would have multiple litigation claims. Claims like that could have

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big implications, not just for the net but for policing across the of

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the UK. The Stephen Lawrence case may have triggered what will now be

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a lengthy public enquiry. The final consequences could be much wider and

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far reaching than that. Some of what emerged today was not

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as prize to the BBC, namely that a former Met officer, Detective

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Sergeant John Davidson is suspected of corruption. In 2006, the BBC

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published allegations made by a colleague of John Davidson, that he

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had been taking bribes in the form of protection money, from the father

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of one of Stephen Lawrence's killers, David Norris, to keep him

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from prosecution. He said he was looking after Norris, that meant he

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was protecting him and his family against arrests and any conviction.

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You are telling me that he was corrupt and in the pocket of the

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father of one of the suspects? From my conversation I had with John

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Davidson on that day, I would say that John Davidson was receiving

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cash from Clifford Norris. He was getting a little earner out of it.

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And that in my mind was corrupt practice.

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I'm joined now by Mark Daly, the reporter you saw in that clip who

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has been following the story closely for several years. The film that you

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made discussed and accused a police officer of corruption. What happened

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next? The Lawrence family had long suspected that corruption had played

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a corrosive role in the investigation of their son's murder.

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This film broadcast those allegations and put them into the

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public domain for the first time properly. These are allegations by

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the way that John Davidson denied then and continues to deny today.

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What happened next was the IPCC launched an investigation into Neil

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Putnam's claims. It concluded there was no evidence to support them and

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the allegations were effectively dismissed. This led to a credibility

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problem for Neil Putnam, it led to the Metropolitan Police launching a

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blistering attack on the BBC for what it called irresponsible and

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sensationalist journalism. But thanks to the tenacity of the

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Lawrences, these allegations refuse to go away. What the review today by

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Mark Ellison has done, it appears to have got underneath the corruption

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allegations in a way that the IPCC failed to do. The IPCC is heavily

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criticised today in Ellison's report and questions will be asked why it

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did not seem to see what Ellison saw. But make no mistake, today's

:11:14.:11:19.

report is a vindication for the 2006 BBC journalism but more importantly,

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it is an acknowledgement that for the first time the Lawrences were

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right to be suspicious about corruption. One further point on the

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interview there, Neil Putnam wanted his evidence to go forward to

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MacPherson, what happened? The IPCC said they were satisfied that the

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Met put everything forward to the MacPherson Inquiry. Ellison said

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today that simply did not happen. The Met were in possession of

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information about corruption relating to John Davidson.

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MacPherson was suspicious of Davidson and had he been aware of

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the existence of some of this information, his conclusions might

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have been very different. But as recently as 2012, Mark Ellison has

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concluded that the Met was still misleading the public and misleading

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the Lawrences. They said all the information had been handed to the

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enquiry when it clearly had not been. Thank you. Dame Doreen

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Lawrence said the Metropolitan Police to this day cannot be

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trusted. Earlier, I spoke to the policing minister Damian Green and I

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started by asking him if she was right.

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I do not think you can tie the whole Metropolitan Police with this

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allegation. The vast majority of the police do a job which is difficult

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and dangerous and with complete integrity. But what we have found

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two days there were even more serious problems, both what happened

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after the terrible murder of Stephen Lawrence and the whole issue of

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undercover policing than we knew before which is why we have taken

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the steps we have. And undercover police officer was ordered to

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infiltrate the Lawrence campaign to get dirt on the Lawrence family.

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Should there be criminal proceedings? It is not for

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politicians to say that somebody should be accused of a crime. That

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is why we have police and the Crown Prosecution Service. But clearly

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there needs to be any the more thorough investigation than we have

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seen in the past. MacPherson did not know there was an undercover cop

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with the Lawrence camp. Does he deserve an apology? Who,

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MacPherson? Yes. Everyone who has been a victim of this clearly

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deserves an apology. I do not think anyone will defend the conduct of

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the officers at the time who appeared to be involved in this or

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those who perhaps shredded the evidence. One of the evidence --

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Ella didn't -- Ellison evidence is that information was shredded.

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Should the Metropolitan Police have put someone to discredit the

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Lawrences? That is something for them to answer. MacPherson famously

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found there was institutional racism in the Metropolitan Police at the

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time. I do not think there is any more but clearly, all these issues

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need to be fully investigated and we need to get to the bottom of them.

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Also, Detective Sergeant John Davidson, formerly of the Met,

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Ellison has looked at him and found he was trying to aid and abet Dobson

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to get him off the hook, what do you make of that? What everyone else

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makes of it. That sounds appalling. That is precisely why we have

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introduced a raft of new actions now say that every individual aspect of

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this is properly investigated either by the National crime authority, so

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it is not being investigated by the Met or by a judge leading quarry. --

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a judge lead in quiet. Do you think the squad was out of control at the

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time? All the evidence suggests it was out of control by modern

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standards throughout its existence. We have, not just this government,

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previous governments have tightened up the way undercover operations can

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happen. It does seem, from what we have seen from the reports, that

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what was happening then was outside the rules even at the time. There

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are allegations that members of the squad engaged in sexual relations in

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order to hide their identities. Should there be legal redress? That

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is one of the things that has been investigated by one of the

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investigations into this. If illegality is proved, clearly, there

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should be prosecutions. Neville Lawrence said he did not think he

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could bear to go through a second enquiry. I can sympathise, but not

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just the family themselves, but also society as a whole, will feel, it

:16:22.:16:27.

has taken 20 years to get this far, it is worth getting to the truth, it

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is so important, so many things seem to have gone so wrong, it is worth

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carrying on. The allegation is that John Davison was aiding David

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Norris, not Dobson. The Met Police's Special

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Demonstrations Squad would often spend years undercover, and even

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strike up romantic relationships with their target. Then, they would

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disappear, leaving holes in the lives of those who had grown close

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to them. We have spoken to one woman whose identity we are protecting, we

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are calling her Alison. She lived with a man she did not know was an

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undercover cop. At this address in Hackney in East

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London nearly 20 years ago, a group of political activists would meet.

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They were a broad church of campaigners. One day, a new member

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presented himself, not the predictable middle-class north

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London. He was working-class, from Liverpool. He had a van to get the

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group around in. We are in the A1, heading north. To one woman, he was

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down-to-earth, practical, sociable and warm. She fell in love with him.

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This is Alison's story. How would you describe your life together with

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him? It is characterised by Thomas display. -- domestic life. He was

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fully integrated with my friends and family. We led a conventional life

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in many ways, I was a schoolteacher, he used to get up

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early. I thought he then went to work. His name was Mark Cassidy, he

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began a sexual relationship with Alison. He moved into her house and

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lost to live with her there for four years. Eventually, Alison wanted

:18:34.:18:38.

children. Mark said he was not ready. For a year, they went to

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relationship counselling. She went into detail about her background, in

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contrast, his story was scant. He was skilled at averting attention

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away from himself. At the time, he seemed humble and charming. But

:18:58.:19:02.

Alison suspected something was being kept from her. She discovered a

:19:03.:19:07.

credit card in a different name and challenged him. He said, I cannot

:19:08.:19:13.

believe how stupid I have been. Please, do not tell anyone, I bought

:19:14.:19:18.

it in a pub, I have only used it once, to buy petrol. Please promise

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never to tell anyone, I am so ashamed to appear like a petty

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thief. I put it over the dustbin and cut it up. I never told anybody. The

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break-up was convoluted. According to Alison, he behaved as though he

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were clinically depressed. She found a goodbye letter on the kitchen

:19:44.:19:46.

table. She called him in hysterics, he came back, briefly. A few weeks

:19:47.:19:53.

later, he left for good. What effect did his disappearance have? It was

:19:54.:19:59.

devastating, like a bereavement, it was so sudden. Without explanation.

:20:00.:20:05.

I could not grieve in any normal way, because in a normal

:20:06.:20:12.

relationship, somebody leaves you, there are normally family members or

:20:13.:20:16.

friends who you might have in common you can talk to. You might get some

:20:17.:20:24.

answers. Doubles the end, they were out walking when Alison spotted a

:20:25.:20:26.

car driving past them repeatedly. She said she thought they were being

:20:27.:20:33.

followed, he said not to worry. After he left, she became paranoid.

:20:34.:20:37.

In the middle of the night, I would look out the window, at 3am, 4am,

:20:38.:20:44.

logging the number plates of cars that were outside my house, and

:20:45.:20:49.

logging the times they were there. On my way to work, park keepers

:20:50.:20:56.

would smile or nod at me, I would think they were members of the

:20:57.:21:01.

state, keeping tabs on me. I was acutely paranoid, very frightened

:21:02.:21:07.

and very disturbed. That lasted for several years. She try to find out

:21:08.:21:13.

who the man she shared her bed with for nearly five years really was.

:21:14.:21:17.

She could only find out who he was not, and that was Mark Cassidy. I

:21:18.:21:26.

went to the family records office, and I searched for his father's

:21:27.:21:31.

death, because I knew the dates when his father died, and there was no

:21:32.:21:35.

record. I hired a private detective to do a run on his national

:21:36.:21:40.

insurance number and other details. All this person could prove was that

:21:41.:21:46.

he was not who he said he was, there was no record at the DVLA and other

:21:47.:21:56.

places. Eventually, she learned he was Mark Jenner, and undercover

:21:57.:22:00.

police officer working for an elite division of the Metropolitan Police.

:22:01.:22:03.

Further investigations revealed the time of their village and ship -- at

:22:04.:22:10.

the time of their relationship, he was married with three young

:22:11.:22:13.

children. I suspect he was going home, to his wife and children. He

:22:14.:22:19.

was a strong personality. I loved him very much, I'm sure they do.

:22:20.:22:26.

Alison eventually rebuilt her life. She has two children. But she says

:22:27.:22:31.

her experience made her feel as though she had been raped by the

:22:32.:22:35.

state. She is now taking a civil case against five police officers.

:22:36.:22:40.

She wants to know what information the Met Police holds on her and

:22:41.:22:44.

whether they knew about and authorised the intimate relationship

:22:45.:22:47.

that Mark Jenner sustained with her for so long. She agreed to this

:22:48.:22:52.

interview because she believes the police will ask the courts to

:22:53.:22:56.

dismiss the case on the grounds that continued secrecy is vital to

:22:57.:23:03.

operational security. We approached Mark Jenner for a

:23:04.:23:07.

response to Alison's claims, but he did not provide any comment. The

:23:08.:23:11.

police gave a statement which said, there is a thorough review and light

:23:12.:23:13.

investigation... Fear our Neville Lawrence -- here

:23:14.:24:17.

are Neville Lawrence, Janet Hill 's and Peter Kirk. We will talk about

:24:18.:24:21.

the wider issue of undercover policing, but let's deal with the

:24:22.:24:25.

report. Can you give me your reaction? I was there the stated

:24:26.:24:33.

when I listened to the Home Secretary talking about something

:24:34.:24:37.

that we have been talking about for 21 years. I felt I knew this was

:24:38.:24:47.

happening, but to hear this being said so the wider world could hear,

:24:48.:24:55.

I was vindicated that my family had been talking about this, and if

:24:56.:24:59.

people had listened earlier, every thing would have been different.

:25:00.:25:04.

What did it feel like, knowing you were being spied upon? I did not

:25:05.:25:10.

realise all know that I was spied upon, I just had feelings. Because

:25:11.:25:17.

of the attitude of the three officers who came to my house on the

:25:18.:25:24.

morning after Stephen's death, who was not prepared to tell us how he

:25:25.:25:27.

died or even said what had happened, I felt they were not being

:25:28.:25:36.

helpful at all. Every time we as Christians, they would not answer.

:25:37.:25:42.

-- every time we were asking questions. They were asking who the

:25:43.:25:50.

people were in my house. I said, these people had nothing to do with

:25:51.:25:57.

my son's death. Could there be any justification whatsoever with

:25:58.:26:01.

putting undercover officers into the family campaign? There could not if

:26:02.:26:08.

that was the aim, to gather evidence to discredit the family. If you read

:26:09.:26:16.

what Mark Ellison has found, the right hand of the much about and

:26:17.:26:19.

police, the murder enquiry, did not ask the left-hand to do anything.

:26:20.:26:24.

The left-hand hammer a secret unit within a secret unit, was charged

:26:25.:26:30.

with looking at the issues of trying to prevent serious violent disorder,

:26:31.:26:34.

you have got to look at the context, there had been violent disorder, the

:26:35.:26:39.

Met Police would have been failing if it did not ask itself, is the

:26:40.:26:50.

issue of the enquiry, are the problem is going to rebound into

:26:51.:26:54.

major public disorder? But we have heard from a former officer who

:26:55.:26:58.

alleges that he was part of that operation. That what he was being

:26:59.:27:03.

asked to do was to discredit the family. It does not matter, it is

:27:04.:27:11.

the Met Police. I would challenge you and say, you analyse what he

:27:12.:27:16.

says, he does not say that at all. He says he is being asked for

:27:17.:27:21.

information, and the officer was deployed not into the family got

:27:22.:27:25.

into one of the campaign creeps that was seeking to influence and attach

:27:26.:27:29.

themselves to the campaign. -- the campaign troops.

:27:30.:27:38.

We were not part of any kind, we were not affiliated to any violent

:27:39.:27:48.

things. Nobody said that. What you just said implied that, there were

:27:49.:27:54.

bad things going on. If the various groups that were affiliating

:27:55.:28:00.

themselves... You are a serving officer. In your view, was there any

:28:01.:28:06.

justification for putting undercover officers into any aspect of the

:28:07.:28:10.

campaign? With undercover policing, it has its place. But it still needs

:28:11.:28:17.

to act within the law. There needs to be accountability and scrutiny

:28:18.:28:23.

around what it is they do. Should they have been involved in this

:28:24.:28:27.

campaign? No, it is as simple as that. What was the impact of that,

:28:28.:28:35.

in terms of how they were conducting the investigation? It clouded the

:28:36.:28:43.

issue of the murder, the racist murder, of Stephen Lawrence.

:28:44.:28:47.

Therefore, they never got to the truth of it. This is about trust,

:28:48.:28:56.

and for do, you were involved with an undercover officer, not that you

:28:57.:29:02.

knew, tell me how you felt when you found out that you had been duped.

:29:03.:29:09.

It is hugely shocking, it affects your sense of trust and judgement, I

:29:10.:29:15.

was one of thousands of people who had been duped by hundreds of

:29:16.:29:20.

officers, you have got a whole policing culture, they try to tell

:29:21.:29:26.

us it was one rogue unit, but now there is a whole policing culture

:29:27.:29:31.

that can differentiate between a threat to national security and a

:29:32.:29:38.

threat to police could ability. Damian Green said that the problem

:29:39.:29:44.

with the Special Demonstrations Squad. They were completely out of

:29:45.:29:51.

control. I agree, but they have been around since 1968, created at the

:29:52.:29:56.

behest of politicians, they were funded by the Home Office, big-time,

:29:57.:30:02.

they were secret within a secret organisation. They were secret even

:30:03.:30:11.

within special Branch. And yet Peter Francis said he was congratulated. I

:30:12.:30:17.

am not saying they did not know about it, but they were not known

:30:18.:30:22.

widely within the organisation. Janet, you say there is a role for

:30:23.:30:27.

undercover operations, what do the parameters have to be? Doing to a

:30:28.:30:34.

job as a police officer, you are policing by consent. Even though

:30:35.:30:39.

they are doing an area of work which is vital to policing, they still

:30:40.:30:44.

have to come under the same regulations, they still have to be

:30:45.:30:48.

accountable and open to the public scrutiny. The whole question on this

:30:49.:31:03.

case, what will that do to trust, particularly in the black community?

:31:04.:31:12.

It is another knock-on effect of the trust and confidence within the

:31:13.:31:15.

black community. A lot of people say, this is no set prize. It does

:31:16.:31:22.

nothing to increase that trust and confidence -- this is no surprise.

:31:23.:31:26.

In the case of Alison who is bringing a case, can there ever be

:31:27.:31:32.

any justification for what happened to her? Personally, I do not think

:31:33.:31:36.

so but that is part of a much wider issue. That will be one thing you

:31:37.:31:43.

welcome, but how confident are you that finally the truth will out?

:31:44.:31:49.

From what happened with MacPherson, I'm very, very wary about what will

:31:50.:31:57.

happen now. The Metropolitan Police seemed to be always trying to hide

:31:58.:32:01.

what they are and put a different face out there all the time. I now

:32:02.:32:06.

feel that we will never be able to trust these people. Thank you very

:32:07.:32:11.

much indeed. Today Yulia Tymoshenko, the Ukranian

:32:12.:32:14.

leader recently released from jail, called on Europe to take a strong

:32:15.:32:17.

line over any attempt by Crimea to join Russia. She warned that

:32:18.:32:20.

otherwise Vladimir Putin would move to take over the rest of Ukraine.

:32:21.:32:24.

Her words were intended to galvanise today's emergency EU summit in

:32:25.:32:27.

Brussels, where it was decided to suspend talks with Russia on an

:32:28.:32:33.

economic pact and visa agreement. But the EU moves are far less

:32:34.:32:37.

stringent than actions taken by America, and some European members

:32:38.:32:42.

think Brussels needs to toughen up. Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is

:32:43.:32:50.

in Brussels. On Brussels' Churchill Avenue,

:32:51.:32:57.

appeasement, -- appeasement's greatest oppose meant is honoured.

:32:58.:33:07.

Leading the charge to get health measures against Russia, Poland and

:33:08.:33:14.

the Baltic republics. Russia is not keeping at all its obligations,

:33:15.:33:19.

neither economic nor international agreements. If Europeans will be

:33:20.:33:26.

only talking, complaining or discussing, Russia is doing. At the

:33:27.:33:33.

centre of it is Ukraine's acting Prime Minister, here to lobby the

:33:34.:33:39.

big EU players who have so far failed to back meaningful sanctions

:33:40.:33:43.

against Russia, trying to impress on them the importance of this moment.

:33:44.:33:49.

We are really grateful to our European partners, to the heads of

:33:50.:33:53.

state, heads of government, for having these kind of talks with

:33:54.:34:01.

Ukrainian government, in order to stabilise the situation in Ukraine

:34:02.:34:09.

and fix this ongoing political, economic and military crisis. While

:34:10.:34:14.

they spoke, Russian deputies in Crimea, an autonomous region of

:34:15.:34:19.

Ukraine, tried to upstage the EU by voting to bring forward a referendum

:34:20.:34:24.

on joining Russia. All the time, thousands of Russian troops besieged

:34:25.:34:33.

Ukrainian bases in the territory. Some are pessimistic that situation

:34:34.:34:38.

can be reversed. No one can win if there are foreign ships which are

:34:39.:34:45.

going further and further. I do not know how realistic it is but at

:34:46.:34:50.

least we have to work for it. The meeting ended with an agreement on a

:34:51.:34:55.

3-phase approach, steps towards a new visa situation for Russians,

:34:56.:35:01.

giving Ukraine $15 billion aid package and a commitment to

:35:02.:35:04.

introduce sanctions such as travel bans and asset seizures against

:35:05.:35:09.

Russians, if they do step back. Do you think it will be possible to

:35:10.:35:13.

agree a swift transition into those measures if circumstances require

:35:14.:35:19.

it? First of all, I think Russia is more dependent on the European Union

:35:20.:35:23.

than the other way round. But I think yes, we are prepared to take a

:35:24.:35:28.

third step if we do not see a de-escalation in the conflict

:35:29.:35:31.

because I think we understand what is at stake here. We now have a

:35:32.:35:37.

Russian president, Russian country which actually excuses in fading

:35:38.:35:41.

another country, just by pointing at people saying we are Russians, we

:35:42.:35:45.

feel threatened. We cannot find these people but that is how they

:35:46.:35:51.

talk about it and that kind of reaction is in conflict with

:35:52.:35:55.

international law, with the security structure we have built up together

:35:56.:36:01.

since the end of the Cold War. So there are real stakes that we now

:36:02.:36:07.

need to meet. The EU's measures might be limited but they are more

:36:08.:36:11.

than many who arrived here this morning expected. The diplomats are

:36:12.:36:17.

of the view that external pressures, for example from Russian deputies in

:36:18.:36:21.

the Crimea, or from the White House announcing its own sanctions against

:36:22.:36:25.

Russia, may have tipped the balance and convinced the doubters led by

:36:26.:36:29.

Germany to sign up to this new package. Perhaps also the sense of

:36:30.:36:36.

that burden of history will influence their deliberations. David

:36:37.:36:41.

Cameron did not mention Churchill by name but he certainly alluded to his

:36:42.:36:46.

legacy. We know from our history that turning a blind eye when

:36:47.:36:52.

nations are trampled over, that stores up greater problems in the

:36:53.:36:57.

long run. With the leaders departed and Crimean referendum now ten days

:36:58.:37:00.

away, it is clear the moment could still be upon us when those

:37:01.:37:04.

additional sanctions agreed-upon today will either have to be

:37:05.:37:08.

implemented or shown up as so much waste paper.

:37:09.:37:13.

On Tuesday, Newsnight revealed the Government was suppressing a

:37:14.:37:15.

slightly embarrassing report on the impact of immigration on

:37:16.:37:22.

unemployment. And both Conservative and Lib Dem ministers have been

:37:23.:37:27.

trading blows on the issue. Chris Cook, our policy editor who broke

:37:28.:37:36.

the story, reports. It must have been an exhausting

:37:37.:37:39.

night for someone in these buildings. This morning, the Home

:37:40.:37:43.

Office and business department published a report into the impact

:37:44.:37:48.

of immigration on unemployment. Two days ago we were told it was an

:37:49.:37:52.

internal report, not intended for release. Yesterday, we were told it

:37:53.:37:58.

was not ready for publication. But this morning, by some miracle, it

:37:59.:38:05.

was published. So here it is. And it is nuanced. On the one hand, it

:38:06.:38:10.

shows immigration is not associated with a rise in unemployment among

:38:11.:38:15.

British people during normal times. That is irritating for the

:38:16.:38:18.

Conservatives who are trying to cut immigration. On the other hand, it

:38:19.:38:23.

does say that non-EU immigration during recession does create

:38:24.:38:26.

temporary unemployment among British people. That is irritating for the

:38:27.:38:33.

Lib Dems who are generally more relaxed about immigration. Will this

:38:34.:38:38.

document provides a foundation for a new coalition solidarity on

:38:39.:38:43.

immigration? Well... No. Vince Cable has made a number of statements

:38:44.:38:47.

about immigration in the last week and to be frank, a lot of them were

:38:48.:38:54.

simply incorrect. Wrong, wrong, wrong again. Not much nuance on

:38:55.:38:58.

display from the Immigration Minister this morning. How about his

:38:59.:39:04.

Home Office colleague Damian Green? We are two different parties in the

:39:05.:39:09.

coalition. We believe in controlling immigration, the Liberal Democrats

:39:10.:39:16.

appear to not believe in that. Not very friendly either. How is the

:39:17.:39:19.

Business Secretary Vince Cable feeling? I do not want to get into a

:39:20.:39:24.

personal argument with a junior colleague. I want to stick to facts.

:39:25.:39:30.

The fact is our two departments have published a report today which shows

:39:31.:39:35.

quite clearly that overall there is very little impact on migrant

:39:36.:39:42.

workers displacing British jobs when the economy is growing. There is

:39:43.:39:47.

research from UCL showing there is an effect on wages at the lower end

:39:48.:39:52.

from immigration. If you are one of the people affected by that, the

:39:53.:39:57.

fact that the national effect of that is quite small will not be much

:39:58.:40:02.

of a consolation will it? We have got to look at the facts. The

:40:03.:40:06.

evidence is such that does suggest that when we have had periods of

:40:07.:40:11.

very deep recession as we had in 2000 and nine and 2010, some British

:40:12.:40:16.

workers were displaced. We have to be honest and upfront about that.

:40:17.:40:22.

The negative effects do bear down on the unskilled. For that reason we do

:40:23.:40:29.

not argue for unlimited immigration. Are you more sympathetic to

:40:30.:40:34.

immigration by no Conservative colleagues because you think the

:40:35.:40:37.

researcher shown it is positive or because you are a liberal who thinks

:40:38.:40:41.

people should have self-determination? A lot of my

:40:42.:40:44.

Conservative colleagues agree with me, particular things like overseas

:40:45.:40:49.

students when they are worried that damage is being done to the British

:40:50.:40:52.

economy by excessive bureaucratic controls. I may have use as an

:40:53.:40:58.

individual on the subject and I am an economist and I like to think I

:40:59.:41:02.

understand economic data which is quite clear in this case, and I am

:41:03.:41:07.

actually arguing as head of a major government department, that is here

:41:08.:41:11.

to promote economic growth and recovery, and that includes having

:41:12.:41:16.

an open approach to good, skilled migrant workers and overseas

:41:17.:41:20.

students. That is the battle I am fighting. The indication is you

:41:21.:41:24.

might take a different view if you were at the Home Office. I do not

:41:25.:41:30.

criticise. Theresa May and James broke and try our colleagues in

:41:31.:41:34.

government. They interpret their job in a way which fits their

:41:35.:41:45.

departmental expertise. Today's report did not contain a killer fact

:41:46.:41:50.

for the opponents or supporters of immigration reform. It was supposed

:41:51.:41:54.

to settle arguments about the Labour impact on immigration. It did not

:41:55.:42:00.

manage that. And this is an area where the impact of immigration is

:42:01.:42:06.

relatively simple. Don't expect a coalition reconciliation on

:42:07.:42:09.

immigration any time soon. Chris joins us now. Where first of

:42:10.:42:14.

going to see the impact of that fault line. The European elections

:42:15.:42:21.

will be the next obvious place. The Conservatives and Lib Dems are

:42:22.:42:26.

slightly different in shaping themselves. Also remember that Nick

:42:27.:42:30.

Clegg will be debating with Nigel Farage the UKIP leader. One of the

:42:31.:42:35.

interesting things in this immigration reporters while there

:42:36.:42:45.

are substantial effects... Sorry, while there are significant findings

:42:46.:42:49.

relating to non-EU migration during a recession, one of this things that

:42:50.:42:55.

researchers can find is an impact on EU migration. If there is this

:42:56.:43:01.

debate between Clegg and Nigel Farage, the danger is Nigel Farage

:43:02.:43:08.

makes Liberal Democrats look weak on immigration, it then serves to make

:43:09.:43:11.

the Conservative look stronger which will not do Nigel Farage much good?

:43:12.:43:19.

Not at all. One of the things we put to Vince was whether we thought that

:43:20.:43:24.

he thought he was on the centre ground. He gave us a slightly feeble

:43:25.:43:29.

answer. Vince cable likes to bring things bubbling up to the surface

:43:30.:43:34.

and when he has got a bit of traction on it he sets things

:43:35.:43:37.

underground again. You No he was not keen to have this story rumbling on

:43:38.:43:45.

for a day or so. Will we now see the fault line on immigration carry us

:43:46.:43:49.

all the way to the general election? I do not think it will close up.

:43:50.:43:55.

There are serious philosophical differences. Reasonable people can

:43:56.:44:00.

differ about this. It is not just economics. There is also culture,

:44:01.:44:06.

religion and race even. Thank you. We do apologise for not being able

:44:07.:44:15.

to bring the Bitcoin story to you. Our line to America has gone down.

:44:16.:44:18.

We have tomorrow's front pages for you.

:44:19.:44:36.

In the Daily Telegraph, Baroness Lawrence addresses the House of

:44:37.:44:44.

Lords. And further down, the US sends six fighter jets to the

:44:45.:44:45.

Baltic. Just before we finish, we go back to

:44:46.:45:12.

the Daily Telegraph and a story there that actually, the Vicar of

:45:13.:45:17.

Diddley, Dawn French, is to deliver the thought for the Day on March the

:45:18.:45:22.

29th. That is it from us which was also a World Book Day. To celebrate,

:45:23.:45:27.

children across the country went to school dressed as their favourite

:45:28.:45:31.

literary characters. To honour all their parents' efforts, we thought

:45:32.:45:35.

the final note tonight should go to the children of Muswell Hill Primary

:45:36.:45:38.

School in North London. Good night. Hello, the rain will peter out.

:45:39.:46:21.

Brighter skies following. Let's take a closer look around. A cold wind

:46:22.:46:28.

across Northern Ireland. Particularly cold across Scotland.

:46:29.:46:33.

There are snow showers. Further south into northern England, Chile

:46:34.:46:42.

and the sunshine compensating. -- the winds are chilly. Not bad going

:46:43.:46:51.

for the early part of March. A lovely afternoon for south-west

:46:52.:46:56.

England. 12 degrees will feel quite pleasantly warm. More of a breeze in

:46:57.:47:02.

Wales taking the edge across the temperatures but quite a springlike

:47:03.:47:07.

day. Pleasant enough tomorrow once the sun breaks through.

:47:08.:47:14.

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