26/03/2014 Newsnight


26/03/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Ist keeping David Cameron in Downing

:00:07.:00:11.

Street versus the man they say is most likely to get him kicked out.

:00:12.:00:15.

The Liberal Democrat leader faces off against the UKIP leader. People

:00:16.:00:20.

like Nick think we are not good enough, we have to give away control

:00:21.:00:23.

to all of these things to somebody else who will do it for us, we are

:00:24.:00:27.

too small to survive. I'm not prepared to see anyone lose their

:00:28.:00:31.

job on the altar of Nigel Farage's anti-European dogma. Whilst the

:00:32.:00:37.

sophologists scratch their head as to what it all means, we are heading

:00:38.:00:46.

down the pub. Farrage goes for the twinkly smile that we have seen a

:00:47.:00:51.

lot of, is this good or bad. Is this man, the President of Rwanda, having

:00:52.:01:02.

his political enemies assassinated. What happened to the Britain which

:01:03.:01:10.

had a horror of getting into debt. A long time ago it was stigmatised and

:01:11.:01:15.

now it is normalised for every level of debt. Is it OK? It is not

:01:16.:01:19.

something you can say is OK or not. It is a fact of life now. It

:01:20.:01:36.

featured two men in grey suits and manage magenta ties, neither with a

:01:37.:01:41.

bit of doubt. Tonight's debate with thor of the Liberal Democrats and

:01:42.:01:48.

the leader of the UKIP party was supposed to be with the European

:01:49.:01:53.

Union. Yet the repeated refrain from each man was that's simply not true.

:01:54.:01:57.

Each preferred to pose a question and then to answer it himself. Who

:01:58.:02:05.

had the best night. Nigel Farage admitted the invitation to debate

:02:06.:02:09.

Nick Clegg had initially made him choke on his bacon sarnie, tonight

:02:10.:02:14.

he was finding it a little easier to swallow. I have just been for a bit

:02:15.:02:19.

of a dress rehearsal in the Westminster Arms and I'm fine. Nick

:02:20.:02:23.

Clegg was the insurgent three years ago, the TV debates in 2010 served

:02:24.:02:28.

him so well he came back for more. Now he's the incumbent, the deputy

:02:29.:02:33.

PM, arguably the old hand. I'm looking forward to it. I'm Nick

:02:34.:02:42.

Ferrari and welcome to the debate. Such an old hand that he opened

:02:43.:02:46.

tonight's debate with rather familiar words. This debate is about

:02:47.:02:49.

you, it is simple, it is about your job. Let's remind to 2010 to remind

:02:50.:02:56.

you. Tonight's debate it about you. About your job... For a radio

:02:57.:03:03.

broadcast it was all rather glam, high-definition TV and swanky set,

:03:04.:03:06.

in a less swanky pub a few miles away, we caught the reaction of our

:03:07.:03:12.

apt viewers. Now both Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg know the intricacies

:03:13.:03:17.

of EU legislation well, they knew tonight was not the night for it.

:03:18.:03:21.

This would be an evening of polarisation, in or out on Europe

:03:22.:03:27.

and no no nonsense questions on Europe. Why don't the British

:03:28.:03:31.

politicians trust the British public and give us a referendum on the

:03:32.:03:34.

membership of the EU now. From time to time they offer a referendum,

:03:35.:03:37.

they do it cynically, funnily enough at election time. And they say vote

:03:38.:03:41.

for us we will give you a referendum and then do their absolute best not

:03:42.:03:45.

to. It will never again happen over the heads of the British people.

:03:46.:03:47.

Then the consent of the British people should be asked by way of a

:03:48.:03:51.

referendum, that is what I have always believed, that has always

:03:52.:03:54.

been my position, I have never wavered in that position. That is

:03:55.:03:58.

why the last time the rules changed, something called the Lisbon Treaty I

:03:59.:04:02.

said there would be a referendum. What did they make of those answers?

:04:03.:04:07.

A trained politician who has spent years learning how to present how to

:04:08.:04:13.

marshall facts, Nigel is more of an outsider. Then it was the turn of

:04:14.:04:17.

John Connelly in the audience, why were our borders wide open he asked

:04:18.:04:21.

to eastern Europeans who came to take jobs? It says here that 29

:04:22.:04:27.

million Bulgarians may come to this country. There aren't even 29

:04:28.:04:34.

million of Romanians and Bulgarians living in their countries it is

:04:35.:04:38.

simply not true. You didn't answer the question. You tried to do

:04:39.:04:41.

trickery with the 29 million, saying there aren't 29 million, you know

:04:42.:04:45.

because two million have left around and they have gone to Italy and to

:04:46.:04:50.

Spain. Nick you didn't answer the basic question, I'm not claiming 29

:04:51.:04:54.

million people have the right to come to Britain. Yes you did. I'm

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claiming 485 million people have the total unconditional right to come to

:05:01.:05:03.

this country if they want to. And I think you are quite right. Let's

:05:04.:05:09.

listen to the facts, let me have it. We are members of the European Union

:05:10.:05:12.

we have the free flow of people, are you denying that? Yes it is not

:05:13.:05:16.

unqualified. Would you deny that. It is not the case that anyone can move

:05:17.:05:20.

to this country and simply claim benefits or live. I didn't mention

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benefit, you keep doing benefits. And what of the economy without the

:05:26.:05:30.

EU. Nick Clegg wheeled out his well-rehearsed figure. Who says we

:05:31.:05:35.

are sacrificing any jobs. I hope he brings out the three million jobs

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line. How many jobs are they prepared to lose, rely plea

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estimated that three million jobs are linked to our position. When you

:05:44.:05:47.

answer a question like that by saying three million jobs are at

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risk, you show that like virtually everybody at Westminster you have

:05:52.:05:54.

never run your own company, you have never had a proper job in the real

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world, you are part of this political bubble that picked up a

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piece of research that was produced ten years ago by a guy who himself

:06:02.:06:07.

now said all he said was the jobs are linked to trade in Europe. The

:06:08.:06:11.

issue of criminal justice took a curious turn as Nick Clegg accused

:06:12.:06:16.

Nick Clegg of letting the British people down by failing to vote. You

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may be left up to 18 months in prison without facing a charge. We

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have a system of common law in this country, we have had for 800 years,

:06:24.:06:28.

but it is based on the presumption of innocence before guilt, it is

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based on habeas corpus and common law and we must defend it. Why did

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you vote against. We must defend the principles of liberty, freedom and

:06:39.:06:42.

justice. You should defend, we should all defend the rights of

:06:43.:06:46.

British citizens. Why did you not do that. Taking over each other, they

:06:47.:06:56.

all do it. Coming to a close the biggest question of all fro LBC

:06:57.:07:04.

listener Beth. The one about lies. How can I believe your integrity,

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Nigel you put your wife on your payroll and Nick you lied about

:07:11.:07:16.

tuition fees. Trust is a rare commodity in politics these day,

:07:17.:07:20.

because in the issues of referendum it has been taken out of the hands

:07:21.:07:25.

of politicians like Nigel and mine. You are paying your wife? I have a

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group in the European Parliament and political in this country. I never

:07:33.:07:36.

said I wouldn't. I very much doubt that anybody else in British

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politics has worked the hours and had so little fun as me over the

:07:41.:07:43.

course of the last few years. I'm very sorry to hear that, I don't see

:07:44.:07:48.

how paying your wife makes up for it? Because when you get home at

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midnight, if you are lucky, you need someone there to say I have done

:07:53.:07:55.

this I have done, that here are the documents for tomorrow, and without

:07:56.:07:58.

having unpaid assistance from my wife for seven years, and paid in a

:07:59.:08:02.

very modest way for five years I couldn't have done it. He still

:08:03.:08:10.

can't answer the question can he. I thought he did answer it. No, he

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didn't. From the moment the debate began the Twitterer war was on. Lib

:08:16.:08:19.

Dems hammering home a phrase made famous by Gordon Brown. Nick Clegg

:08:20.:08:25.

and Nigel Farage thank you for taking part. Even the Conservatives

:08:26.:08:31.

were keen to home bomb Nick Clegg, the man who could slaughter the UKIP

:08:32.:08:36.

beast for them. Who won? Nigel Farage spoke with clearer language

:08:37.:08:41.

but looked uncomfortable. Nick Clegg less prone to exasperation, both the

:08:42.:08:48.

PM and the Labour leader insisted they weren't watching, but there

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will be lessons for them to learn from tonight's fight, thank God for

:08:52.:08:59.

catch-up TV. George Parker is the political editor of the Financial

:09:00.:09:03.

Times, Melanie Philips a journalist and social commentator, and Phil

:09:04.:09:07.

Collins writes for the Times. Let as not try to call it one way or

:09:08.:09:12.

another, nobody knows really. Was Nick Clegg wise to issue this

:09:13.:09:17.

challenge first off do you think? I think absolutely, I think it is a

:09:18.:09:21.

no-brainer for Nick Clegg, this is a party at the moment which is polling

:09:22.:09:26.

around 10%, Nigel Farage's party is polling around ten pest as well.

:09:27.:09:29.

They are two minority parties discussion an issue that people

:09:30.:09:32.

don't care very much about and they are getting wall-to-wall publicity,

:09:33.:09:37.

including on this programme, of course it is a no-brainer, he was

:09:38.:09:40.

right to issue the challenge. The Liberal Democrats have set the bar

:09:41.:09:46.

very low, they want to get the 8-9% up to 11-12% a level to which they

:09:47.:09:52.

think they can save the 12 MEPs they have at the moment. At least Nigel

:09:53.:09:55.

Farage didn't look completely nuts did he? I would imagine that anyone,

:09:56.:10:00.

nobody would even possibly think he would look completely nuts. He did

:10:01.:10:03.

get the edge on Nick Clegg, I thought some of the things he said

:10:04.:10:07.

to Nick Clegg, some of the challenges he laid down Clegg did

:10:08.:10:13.

not actually answer properly. The three million piece of research, the

:10:14.:10:18.

three million jobs at risk you know, it is a pretty dodgy one. And Mr

:10:19.:10:23.

Clegg did not come back on open borders, he didn't really answer

:10:24.:10:26.

that question, going on and on about, I always wanted a referendum

:10:27.:10:30.

with new rules, and everyone wants the referendum on the old rules,

:10:31.:10:34.

that is the point. Mr Farrage fell down on the ECHR, he did not make

:10:35.:10:41.

the point which Mr Clegg did make, that the European Court of Human

:10:42.:10:44.

Rights, human rights law has nothing to do with the EU. I thought he

:10:45.:10:49.

looked very shifty over "the wife" and the employment of the "the

:10:50.:10:53.

wife". Overall I was looking at the overall messages that both men were

:10:54.:10:57.

conveying and you see Nick Clegg was actually for a Lib Dem this is

:10:58.:11:01.

really quite ironic, I thought that Nick Clegg was giving a kind of fear

:11:02.:11:07.

message, you know, if we come out it will be terrible and was trying to

:11:08.:11:11.

sort of scare monger over jobs and was basically saying Britain can't

:11:12.:11:17.

go it alone. Where as Nigel Farage, curiously was the much more

:11:18.:11:20.

optimistic of the two, much more attractive of the two. He was saying

:11:21.:11:24.

Britain can do it again and we have to have faith in ourselves and we

:11:25.:11:28.

have to take back control of our own Government. What did you make of

:11:29.:11:32.

this? That is not entirely true on immigration for example, I thought

:11:33.:11:36.

Nick Clegg gave a very clear liberal defence of immigration, which is for

:11:37.:11:40.

all the apparent liberal elite that run the country you don't hear that

:11:41.:11:44.

case made very often, he made it in a very full-throated way. He made a

:11:45.:11:49.

clear liberal case on trade, I thought he was quite coherent. I

:11:50.:11:54.

thought he won it may be because he represents views I hold. In this

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sense Clegg won it, even if you take the YouGov figures for a Liberal

:12:00.:12:04.

Democrat to win 36% in any poll is joy unconfined for them, that is the

:12:05.:12:08.

point of this. It is nothing to do with the EU, on which nobody's view

:12:09.:12:11.

would have changed, it is everything to do with changing your mind about

:12:12.:12:14.

Nick Clegg, that was the point of him turning up tonight. In that

:12:15.:12:20.

context was it wise for Cameron and Miliband not to be represent there

:12:21.:12:24.

had? I think it probably was, they don't have quite the same imperative

:12:25.:12:29.

as Clegg has, as George said before, to creep from nine to 12 might team

:12:30.:12:35.

like a fairly small journey but it could be crucial electorally for

:12:36.:12:43.

them. If UKIP can hold 12% they will do damage to the Conservatives.

:12:44.:12:47.

Neither of the other two want to talk about Europe, if Labour talk

:12:48.:12:52.

about Europe it is a danger their supporters go to UKIP, and Tory

:12:53.:12:56.

splits again in if they talk about it. They are the losers. Who? David

:12:57.:13:00.

Cameron and Ed Miliband, because they conspicuously did not take part

:13:01.:13:04.

in this debate. This was a debate of surrogates, and you know, their

:13:05.:13:07.

voices weren't heard and I think people will take away you know quite

:13:08.:13:12.

a poor impression of them from that. Interesting too how Clegg embraced

:13:13.:13:17.

the legislation to lock in a referendum if there is transfer of

:13:18.:13:19.

power, which is not a Liberal Democrat idea. He has come pretty

:13:20.:13:24.

late to that party. All of a sudden it was very useful for him to

:13:25.:13:27.

describe that. And Clegg has gone on the journey from the outsider to the

:13:28.:13:31.

insider and I thought he wore that quite well tonight. Farrage has come

:13:32.:13:35.

from nowhere to be the outsider, it was a peculiar moment. A very

:13:36.:13:39.

strange hour for us all to spend. Very strange. What are your

:13:40.:13:43.

feelings, two of you have mentioned this is an issue people don't really

:13:44.:13:47.

care about? Yes, well if you look at the opinion pollsters they say

:13:48.:13:51.

typically Europe doesn't come within the top ten issues that people care

:13:52.:13:54.

about in their day-to-day lives. And I think that's true, it is one of

:13:55.:13:58.

the reasons why normally in European elections politicians talk about

:13:59.:14:00.

hospitals and schools and potholes in the roads and don't talk about

:14:01.:14:03.

Europe. But I thought the interesting thing this time was the

:14:04.:14:06.

Liberal Democrats who are pro-European are actually saying we

:14:07.:14:09.

have nothing to lose, we are going to say we are pro-European and send

:14:10.:14:13.

out a message and their view is basically there is 35% of the

:14:14.:14:17.

population who are pro-European and want Britain to stay in the EU, that

:14:18.:14:20.

is the pool of voters that they are fishing in really. I don't think

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people don't care about it, it is just not on the forefront of

:14:25.:14:27.

people's minds, people are more concerned about the day-to-day

:14:28.:14:29.

issues, as soon as you start talking about it then I think people do care

:14:30.:14:33.

quite considerably. On one side or the other and they want to hear the

:14:34.:14:37.

arguments. People certainly care about immigration? They do, that was

:14:38.:14:40.

probably the most interesting part of the whole thing, where the

:14:41.:14:43.

divergence was very clear. Farrage lapsed into some very peculiar

:14:44.:14:48.

language at that point, I don't know if I live in the anglo--sphere, I

:14:49.:14:55.

have never been there but Nigel Farage seems to inhabit it. Nick

:14:56.:14:58.

Clegg was clearer, he didn't have a populist message, but for Clegg he

:14:59.:15:02.

wants to show leadership and to be there for an hour on the television

:15:03.:15:05.

being the leader on a big subject. That in itself is quite an important

:15:06.:15:12.

politics calm currency for him. I thought Farrage had immigration and

:15:13.:15:16.

Clegg had jobs. And I thought immigration worked about for Farrage

:15:17.:15:21.

than the jobs -- better for Farrage than the jobs for Clegg. It happens

:15:22.:15:26.

to be people's number two on the list of concerns after the economy.

:15:27.:15:30.

Nigel Farage channelled that better than Nick Clegg did. He has the

:15:31.:15:35.

easier gig in a sense. He has the more popular line, I thought Clegg

:15:36.:15:39.

made a good fist of his line, it is not a particularly popular one. I

:15:40.:15:43.

agree with Melanie about the jobs, that well-worn figure of three

:15:44.:15:46.

million is plucked out of the air, as soon as that was interrogated it

:15:47.:15:50.

is very flimsy indeed, that argument which Clegg began with, but this is

:15:51.:15:54.

essentially by our economic future, I think there is some truth in that

:15:55.:15:57.

argument, but I think he lost that part of the argument. This is also a

:15:58.:16:02.

contest for plucky outsider, underdog, to the political process.

:16:03.:16:09.

In the general election Nick Clegg scored so well because he was the

:16:10.:16:12.

plucky outsider to the political process. Now Farrage is the new guy

:16:13.:16:18.

on the block. And I think Farrage still has the edge. I think he is

:16:19.:16:23.

still the chippy outsider and saying the things that politicians won't

:16:24.:16:28.

say, you know, there were too many occasions where Nick Clegg was sort

:16:29.:16:31.

of not caught out, but was clearly looking a bit sort of uncomfortable,

:16:32.:16:35.

he didn't really answer the question. Ultimately after an hour

:16:36.:16:40.

of Farrage he began to fade, diminishing returns set in for me

:16:41.:16:44.

early, in the end he's not good enough, he's too small to survive.

:16:45.:16:49.

Thank you very much all of you. It was a bit like the good old days

:16:50.:16:52.

of the Cold War in Washington today with the British and American

:16:53.:16:55.

defence secretaries worrying over what to do about Russia. After years

:16:56.:17:00.

of improving relations the invasion of Crimea has reset the clock. It

:17:01.:17:04.

has done so when almost everyone in NATO has less money to spend on

:17:05.:17:09.

defence. Barack Obama on his first presidential visit to Brussels said

:17:10.:17:13.

he had concerns about the diminished level of defence spending among

:17:14.:17:18.

America as allies. He also found time for a pointed reminder of how

:17:19.:17:22.

the last stand-off between east and west came to an end. For decades a

:17:23.:17:29.

contest was waged, and ultimately that contest was won, not by tanks

:17:30.:17:36.

or missiles, but because our ideals stirred the hearts of Hungarians who

:17:37.:17:42.

sparked a revolution. Polls in and shipyards who stood in solidarity.

:17:43.:17:51.

Waging a revolution without firing a shot. Eastern Berliners who marched

:17:52.:17:57.

past the guards and finally tore down that wall. The Defence

:17:58.:18:04.

Secretary Philip Hammond met his US counterpart in Washington today from

:18:05.:18:10.

he joins me now. In your assessment of this stand-off between Russia and

:18:11.:18:17.

the west what would it take to move from economic sanctions to something

:18:18.:18:23.

more serious that might involve NATO? NATO is involved already.

:18:24.:18:30.

We're very clear that the preferred way of dealing with this situation

:18:31.:18:35.

over the Ukraine and Crimea is through economic diplomatic and

:18:36.:18:42.

political pressure on Russia. And President Obama has emphasised in

:18:43.:18:46.

that speech you were carrying there today in Brussels that these are the

:18:47.:18:51.

tools we will use in dealing with the crisis over the Ukraine. He was

:18:52.:18:57.

very clear that there is not a military option around resolving the

:18:58.:19:00.

crisis in the Ukraine. There is no military option? That's what the

:19:01.:19:07.

President said in the speech and of course that will carry a great deal

:19:08.:19:12.

of weight. But he also made the point that we have weapons of

:19:13.:19:19.

economic, political and diplomatic sanction that will exact a very

:19:20.:19:24.

significant price from Russia and if the crisis were to endure over time

:19:25.:19:30.

it would make life very difficult indeed for Russia and the Russian

:19:31.:19:35.

people. I read the text of a lecture you gave today in which you said you

:19:36.:19:39.

became accustomed to hearing a certain amount of sniping in North

:19:40.:19:44.

America about what the capabilities were of the European NATO allies.

:19:45.:19:48.

What sort of things are they sniping about? Well I think Secretary Gates

:19:49.:20:00.

when he was the Defence Secretary first set the perfectly legitimate

:20:01.:20:04.

question, why would the US taxpayer want to spend their dollars

:20:05.:20:09.

defending European countries that are unwilling to pay for their own

:20:10.:20:13.

defence. That is a legitimate question and one which we in

:20:14.:20:18.

European NATO have to answer. The sniping that I referred to was a

:20:19.:20:23.

more specific sniping around the relationship between the UK and the

:20:24.:20:27.

US in defence matters. Where there have been a number of commentators

:20:28.:20:33.

on both sides of the Atlantic questioning whether Britain is able

:20:34.:20:38.

to be a credible partner of the United States. And I was very

:20:39.:20:44.

pleased this morning here to hear the Secretary of State of defence

:20:45.:20:49.

Hagel saying clearly that Britain is a credible reliable and valued

:20:50.:20:54.

partner. The United States has made clear that it's its future defence

:20:55.:21:00.

plans will involve closer working with allies and I'm clear that

:21:01.:21:06.

Britain is first in line to be the ally of preference for closer

:21:07.:21:09.

working in the future and one of the things we have done today is to talk

:21:10.:21:14.

about areas where we can do more together in the future, collaberate

:21:15.:21:18.

more closely in the interests of both countries and of NATO and of

:21:19.:21:26.

the free world more generally. Niece these snipers are right, we have no

:21:27.:21:29.

operational aircraft carriers, the size of the army has been cut by a

:21:30.:21:34.

fifth, the former chief of the general staff Lord Dannett thinks

:21:35.:21:38.

that it has been cut far too far. They are right? Frankly I'm less

:21:39.:21:46.

interested in what former chiefs and former generals think than the

:21:47.:21:50.

advice time' getting from my current military chiefs and the current

:21:51.:21:54.

military chiefs are telling me that we must invest in the frontiers of

:21:55.:22:02.

defence, we must invest in cyber, we must invest in intelligence

:22:03.:22:06.

acquisitions, surveillance, reconnaissance capabilities. These

:22:07.:22:09.

are the things that we need to invest in. And with limited budgets

:22:10.:22:14.

investing more in the new technologies to deal with the

:22:15.:22:19.

threats that we will face in the future inevitably means spending

:22:20.:22:23.

less on the old and familiar capabilities. On carrier strike, yes

:22:24.:22:28.

we have accepted a gap in our carrier strike capability, but on

:22:29.:22:35.

the 4th of July this year, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be launched at

:22:36.:22:42.

Rosyth, a 65,000-tonne carrier, the largest ship the Royal Navy has had.

:22:43.:22:46.

We are in the process of regenerating our carrier strike

:22:47.:22:52.

capability with these new ships and the F-35 strike aircraft, one of the

:22:53.:22:57.

world's most capable fighters. We will be back in that game with

:22:58.:23:02.

avengence. Can I ask you a question about Ukraine, are there any

:23:03.:23:06.

contingency plans for military action of any kind? Ass I have said

:23:07.:23:15.

already we do not believe there will be an appropriate military response

:23:16.:23:19.

to the crisis in the Ukraine. This has to be resolved by diplomatic

:23:20.:23:25.

means and in the end there has to be negotiations between the Ukrainians

:23:26.:23:30.

and the Russians. Ukraine is not a NATO member, it is outside the

:23:31.:23:35.

alliance, we're very clear and President Obama has made clear today

:23:36.:23:39.

that those countries that are inside NATO, including the Baltic states,

:23:40.:23:44.

benefit from a very strong and clear military guarantee by NATO. We can't

:23:45.:23:50.

extend that to countries outside the NATO alliance. Thank you very much.

:23:51.:23:55.

Tony Blair thinks he's a visionary, Britain has given his country

:23:56.:24:01.

millions upon millions in aid, Rwanda's President, Paul Kagami has

:24:02.:24:09.

been a poster boy in these measures. 20 years since the genocide there

:24:10.:24:13.

Rwanda's economy is growing at 8% a year, it comes at a price, Kagami's

:24:14.:24:18.

opponents get locked up or worse, killed. So many opponents have fled

:24:19.:24:24.

abroad. But even there they are not safe. The South African Government

:24:25.:24:28.

has just expelled four Rwandan diplomats who they said were

:24:29.:24:32.

involved in the murder and attempted murder of Rwandans in South Africa.

:24:33.:24:34.

We investigated. New Year's Eve, Johannesburg.

:24:35.:24:56.

Rwanda's former intelligence chief is on his way to an expensive hotel.

:24:57.:25:06.

He's going to see an old informant. It was his friend, he used to come

:25:07.:25:14.

and stay in his house many times. Patrick Karaga left his car in the

:25:15.:25:23.

car park in Michelangelo Towers, and made his way up to suite 105, his

:25:24.:25:28.

family would never hear from him again. His phones and everything

:25:29.:25:33.

started going off from 8.00, 9.00, that is when they murdered him. The

:25:34.:25:40.

friend, a man by the name of Apollo, was used as bait. The killers

:25:41.:25:43.

themselves are thought to have rented a suite across the cor

:25:44.:25:46.

templet we don't know how many of them there were. We do know that

:25:47.:25:55.

Patrick Karaga seems to have put up a fight. The room was a mess, you

:25:56.:25:59.

could see everything was a nightmare, we found the towel and

:26:00.:26:06.

the towel was full of blood and the rope. He had marks all over. So

:26:07.:26:13.

later they used the rope to hang him tight. His face had turned charcoal

:26:14.:26:21.

black. Patrick was once one of the most powerful figures in Rwanda.

:26:22.:26:26.

Paul Kagami's chief of external intelligence. He fled to South

:26:27.:26:34.

Africa in 2008 after falling out with the regime. There he helped set

:26:35.:26:40.

up an opposition movement called the Rwandan National Congress. His

:26:41.:26:43.

friends family are in no doubt that he was murdered on the orders of the

:26:44.:26:47.

Rwandan President. What I know is yes given his position, the way he

:26:48.:26:52.

was and the way he did his job for all those years when he was part of

:26:53.:27:02.

the Kagami regime, he may have known things and may have been in

:27:03.:27:06.

opposition to those things. Almost certainly he would have known some

:27:07.:27:10.

dark secrets, but his murder may have had more to do with whom rather

:27:11.:27:15.

than what he knew. Patrick may have been an exile but he still had

:27:16.:27:19.

friends inside Rwandan intelligence. To Paul Kagami those contacts could

:27:20.:27:23.

possibly have constituted a threat. But to others they were an asset.

:27:24.:27:27.

Newsnight has learned that from around the middle of last year Mr

:27:28.:27:34.

Karagaya held a series of meetings with South Africa and Tanzania

:27:35.:27:37.

military intelligence. The meetings happened at night and in secret.

:27:38.:27:40.

They took place just as South Africa and Tanzania were sending their

:27:41.:27:46.

troops to Congo to fight a Rwandan-backed rebel group. The

:27:47.:27:56.

group was formed in early 2012, it called itself M 23. Within months

:27:57.:28:01.

they had the much more powerful Congalese military on the run. The

:28:02.:28:07.

United Nations said the rebels were receiving support from Rwanda. But

:28:08.:28:13.

in mid-2013 a new UN brigade, made up of principally South African and

:28:14.:28:17.

Tanzania soldiers began taking the fight to the rebels. And by November

:28:18.:28:24.

M 23 were defeated. Their demise was swifter than their rise. Could

:28:25.:28:31.

Patrick's late night meetings have contributed to the defeat of a

:28:32.:28:35.

Rwandan proxy army, and could that in part at least explain his death.

:28:36.:28:40.

Shortly after the murder Rwanda's President did little to distance

:28:41.:28:45.

himself from the killing, while officially denying any involvement.

:28:46.:29:13.

Patrick Karagaya's death served as a stark warning for exiles in South

:29:14.:29:19.

Africa. Another high ranking official in Paul Kagami's entourage

:29:20.:29:24.

was one. The general is understandably perhaps very cautious

:29:25.:29:28.

about his security, about who he meets, about giving out contact

:29:29.:29:35.

details. We have managed to get in touch with an intermediary and have

:29:36.:29:40.

managed to range to meet them in a hotel outside Johannesburg. We will

:29:41.:29:45.

follow you, we are in the grey Toyota. Wait for me. Thanks. Six

:29:46.:29:51.

men, three of them Rwandan are currently on trial in Johannesburg

:29:52.:29:56.

accuse of the attempted murder of a man in 2010. Since then he has

:29:57.:30:02.

survived two more sassination attempts, the most recent earlier

:30:03.:30:05.

this month. So the general is in hiding, living under South African

:30:06.:30:10.

state protection. They ran away from danger, I ran away from somebody I

:30:11.:30:15.

thought wanted my life, and that was the President of Rwanda. He said

:30:16.:30:23.

that Patrick and I are like flies and if it requires him to use a ham

:30:24.:30:28.

Tory kill a fly he will do it. You knew President Kagami well, would

:30:29.:30:31.

you have called him a friend at one point? No, never. First of all he's

:30:32.:30:37.

a very violent person. Have you seen that? Oh yes, many times, beating

:30:38.:30:42.

people, very many times in my life. I have seen him doing that. In the

:30:43.:30:50.

aftermath of the genocide in which 800,000 mostly Tutsi Rwandans tide,

:30:51.:30:56.

Paul Kagami's army was accused of killing out mass killings of Hutu

:30:57.:31:01.

citizens. He has always rejected that. But the General, Chief of

:31:02.:31:05.

Staff of the Rwandan Armed Forces admits that what he calls "excesses"

:31:06.:31:11.

did occur. There was no deliberate intention against the Hutu, but

:31:12.:31:19.

talking about people dying in war and undoubtedly they did. These

:31:20.:31:24.

exercises of war are not just confined to Rwanda. Do you think

:31:25.:31:28.

Paul Kagami could fear what you have to say about the killings or

:31:29.:31:33.

excesses? You know what it is as you said nobody died, and yet a parent,

:31:34.:31:39.

a wife or child died. The circumstances under which people

:31:40.:31:42.

died should be explained. And if they explain them then they can have

:31:43.:31:49.

consideration. In Rwanda we don't have angels and devils, what we have

:31:50.:31:56.

is a situation inbetween. You are not an angel? Not at all. The South

:31:57.:32:01.

African Government this month expelled four Rwandan diplomats,

:32:02.:32:07.

linking them to the murder of Patrick Karagaya and the attempted

:32:08.:32:10.

murder of the General. We were invited here to Pretoria to

:32:11.:32:13.

interview the Rwandan High Commisioner, I have been inside and

:32:14.:32:17.

the man seems to have changed his mind. He refused to comment on any

:32:18.:32:23.

allegations of assassinations or attempted assassinations, and as to

:32:24.:32:27.

my questions of whether somebody in this diplomatic mission had been

:32:28.:32:32.

intimidating Rwandan exiles, he refused to confirm it or deny.

:32:33.:32:36.

Almost every member of the Rwandan opposition we met spoke of being

:32:37.:32:40.

threatened. One name came up again and again. That of one of the

:32:41.:32:50.

expelled diplomats, first councillor Didi. I have told them they would be

:32:51.:32:59.

eliminated. Didier doesn't hide his words when he's talking to Rwandans,

:33:00.:33:05.

he's straight forward. When he says eliminate or wipe or silence he

:33:06.:33:13.

means it. Other exiles have played this audio tapes in which they say

:33:14.:33:20.

everything members of Rwanda's Armed Forces have been heard plotting to

:33:21.:33:26.

kill Mr Karagaya. We can't verify the recordings but it is clear the

:33:27.:33:29.

South African Government believes Rwanda was involved. It is not just

:33:30.:33:36.

South Africa, over the years Paul Kagami's opponents have been

:33:37.:33:40.

targeted in countries as diverse as Mozambique, Uganda, Kenya, even

:33:41.:33:45.

Europe. Belgium, Sweden and indeed the United Kingdom. In 2011, three

:33:46.:33:51.

Rwandan exiles were warned by British police that their lives were

:33:52.:33:55.

in imminent danger from the Rwandan Government. We have spoken to one of

:33:56.:33:58.

those exiles for this investigation who says he still remains in regular

:33:59.:34:02.

contact with the Metropolitan Police. If Rwanda is trying to

:34:03.:34:09.

silence crickets abroad, then the situation inside the country is

:34:10.:34:13.

tougher still for those who oppose the Government. You know there have

:34:14.:34:18.

been disappearance, executions, and nobody is talking. The police, the

:34:19.:34:27.

intelligence is all over the place. That is terror. If nobody is talking

:34:28.:34:35.

and people are terrorised, that is not peace. You have a brewing

:34:36.:34:38.

conflict in Rwanda that is likely to develop into another conflict.

:34:39.:34:44.

Rwanda has accused South African of harbouring terrorists, amongst them

:34:45.:34:49.

the General and has asked for his extradition, that is unlikely to

:34:50.:34:53.

happen. Despite the denials of official involvement, the message

:34:54.:34:59.

from Kagami seems clear, oppose us and you are likely to end up dead.

:35:00.:35:08.

Neither a borrower or lender be, the advice to the son in Shakespeare's

:35:09.:35:14.

hamlet was once an -- Hamlet was once an item of faith in the UK. As

:35:15.:35:20.

nation we currently owe ?1. 43 trillion. And a report by the

:35:21.:35:25.

think-tank Demos, out tomorrow and seen in advance by this programme

:35:26.:35:29.

identifies a further hidden debt. It often seems in the lives of many

:35:30.:35:33.

British people the person who isn't a borrower is a mug! This is a huge

:35:34.:35:38.

change in MRILT public attitudes which has rather intrigued us.

:35:39.:35:45.

Sliding in and out of the red isn't unusual, but your bets of hanging on

:35:46.:35:52.

in the black seem slimmer than ever. Our personal debts stack up to ?1. 4

:35:53.:35:56.

trillion. More than twice what the Government spends in a year. And new

:35:57.:36:01.

research seen by Newsnight suggests even more is hidden, nearly ?5

:36:02.:36:06.

billion of arrears the official figures ignore. That is how Trevor

:36:07.:36:11.

fell behind, he had to take time off work when he was ill. Housing and

:36:12.:36:16.

utility bills he couldn't pay built up. So he went to different lenders

:36:17.:36:21.

to cope. It is very easy to borrow, and I mean they are quick enough to

:36:22.:36:28.

come to you and say, yeah, it is here if you want, ?1500, how much do

:36:29.:36:33.

you want. It is easy to pile it on to you. But you wait until they

:36:34.:36:39.

start asking for it back. It's like an addiction innit really. But it is

:36:40.:36:44.

not just those in vulnerable situations taking their chances. The

:36:45.:36:50.

research suggests 88% of us in Rwanda's in the red in some form,

:36:51.:36:55.

mortgages, credit cards or something more risky. A quarter of households

:36:56.:37:00.

rely on debt to get through the week. If you are under 30 you are

:37:01.:37:03.

three-times more likely to have debts that are racking up and up.

:37:04.:37:07.

The first year I would have eight hours contact. Around this table

:37:08.:37:14.

just four students will rack ?150,000 of debt between them before

:37:15.:37:19.

they earn a full-time penny. For all of you being in debt is perfectly

:37:20.:37:24.

normal? Yeah. But unlike any of our previous generations, that is their

:37:25.:37:28.

reality. A long time ago it was stigmatised now it is part of daily

:37:29.:37:32.

life, every level of debt. Do you think that's OK? I don't think it is

:37:33.:37:37.

something whether you can say is OK or not, because it just is, it is a

:37:38.:37:41.

fact of life now. It is daunting thinking about it like that and

:37:42.:37:45.

talking about it, but now that we are living here and we don't have to

:37:46.:37:48.

pay it back at the moment, I'm putting it at the back of my mind.

:37:49.:37:52.

If I can come to university I can take steps to get a well paid job to

:37:53.:37:55.

pay off that when I leave university and just try not to think about for

:37:56.:38:00.

the time being. There is not much sign of current or future

:38:01.:38:02.

generations ever being able to escape. In fact, the Government's

:38:03.:38:07.

official number crunchers predicted that we would be more and more in

:38:08.:38:12.

hock. Approaching again the dangerous way in which we were

:38:13.:38:16.

overextended when the financial system went pop.

:38:17.:38:22.

And from controversial new pay day lenders who give decisions in

:38:23.:38:25.

minutes, to doorstep debt collectors, it is big business.

:38:26.:38:28.

Frank has been around the streets and knocking on doors for 40 years,

:38:29.:38:35.

chasing up unpaid rent and bills. What kind of people get into debt?

:38:36.:38:42.

Everybody. Have you got a mortgage? It could be you, it doesn't matter

:38:43.:38:45.

whether it is credit cards or you can see from the figures, it is

:38:46.:38:49.

enormous isn't T you know, it includes mortgages and everything

:38:50.:38:54.

else. But yeah, debt is debt and it is still growing isn't it. We as a

:38:55.:38:58.

country borrow God knows how much every day just to survive. So you

:38:59.:39:03.

know. For us not to recognise it would be stupid wouldn't it. That

:39:04.:39:06.

means that people in your position can make more and more money doesn't

:39:07.:39:12.

it? I don't make a lot of money out of it. Let's face it, I do make a

:39:13.:39:17.

few shillings and I employ a few people, which is basically what it

:39:18.:39:21.

is all about, in this day of everything wanting everything. You

:39:22.:39:25.

know children getting all the latest Playstations and everything else,

:39:26.:39:29.

you know, it is not just people at the bottom of the food chain who are

:39:30.:39:35.

suffering. It is people as you move into the middle market et cetera.

:39:36.:39:40.

They are also caught up in it. Although the stigma of debt has more

:39:41.:39:44.

or less gone, the potential to cause harm has grown. Think-tank, Demos,

:39:45.:39:50.

who conducted this major new poll, believes lenders who do most damage

:39:51.:39:54.

should be penalised. When it does go wrong, when debt does spiral out of

:39:55.:39:58.

control, it can cause harm very quickly, that harm is what we are

:39:59.:40:02.

interested in, that harmful section of the debt market. That is where we

:40:03.:40:05.

think the Government and regulator should be tackling. A gentle

:40:06.:40:08.

long-term mortgage shouldn't do much harm, but being in the red can ruin

:40:09.:40:14.

lives. But with the recovery based on largely our own spending, debt

:40:15.:40:19.

may land us in trouble but we would be in trouble without it too. Now

:40:20.:40:25.

there is a minor moral panic taking off at the news of official advice

:40:26.:40:29.

that teenagers in England and Wales, including those under the age of

:40:30.:40:32.

consent, should be able to get hold of the morning-after-pill. The

:40:33.:40:36.

National Institute for Health and care excellence is recommending they

:40:37.:40:40.

be able to keep emergency contraception at home just in case

:40:41.:40:43.

they need it. The justification is an attempt to shed this country's

:40:44.:40:47.

reputation for having the highest rates of teenage pregnancy and

:40:48.:40:54.

abortion in Europe. But when won't the possession of

:40:55.:40:58.

morning-after-pills encourage promiscuity, and sexually

:40:59.:41:02.

transmitted diseases. Our guests are both here. Is this a good thing do

:41:03.:41:06.

you think? I think it could be a good thing, definitely. I mean, I

:41:07.:41:11.

just don't think that it is going to change people's minds that much in

:41:12.:41:16.

terms of people aren't thinking, if something's down the road instead of

:41:17.:41:19.

in their house it is going to make them more or less likely to have

:41:20.:41:24.

sex. What do you think? I don't think that they are emotionally

:41:25.:41:28.

mature enough to handle the aftereffects of having sex. I think

:41:29.:41:33.

that having the morning-after-pill so readily available will actually

:41:34.:41:39.

not actually make a difference to pregnancy rates and things like

:41:40.:41:43.

that, teenage pregnancy rates. Why not? I would say this because they

:41:44.:41:50.

are not mature enough, they don't know the aftereffects, the pill

:41:51.:41:55.

actually doesn't stop you from getting sexually transmitted

:41:56.:41:58.

diseases and things like that. That's another argument, we will

:41:59.:42:02.

come to that in a moment or two if we may. But on the pregnancy

:42:03.:42:05.

question you really don't think it will make much difference? I don't

:42:06.:42:08.

feel it will make any difference at all. It will be an excuse for young

:42:09.:42:12.

people to have sex and then think OK tomorrow I will have the

:42:13.:42:17.

morning-after-pill. What's wrong with that? I don't think that we

:42:18.:42:22.

should be encouraging that, the Government should not be encouraging

:42:23.:42:26.

young people to be having sex. It is not encouraging young people to have

:42:27.:42:31.

sex, it is encouraging them not to get pregnant? Isn't it? Well I

:42:32.:42:37.

wouldn't say so we already have things like free condoms and in

:42:38.:42:41.

schools and universities being given out F they didn't want to fall

:42:42.:42:45.

pregnant there are loads of means available of different types of

:42:46.:42:50.

contraception to help them. Specifically the thing that is given

:42:51.:42:53.

concern is the question of the morning-after-pill which, is

:42:54.:42:57.

supposedly emergecy contraception after the event. Although if you

:42:58.:43:05.

have a stockpile it is a predictable emergency. What do you think will be

:43:06.:43:09.

the effect of that? I mean you say it is a predictable emergency, most

:43:10.:43:14.

forms of contraception are 100%, I don't think any form is. The whole

:43:15.:43:18.

point of this is when that fails, because you have to already be

:43:19.:43:21.

taking some form of contraception to have access to this any way, it is

:43:22.:43:25.

for people who are already taking contraception but need something to

:43:26.:43:27.

fall back on sometimes because obviously nothing is ever 100%. The

:43:28.:43:34.

difference between a morning-after-pill and condom or

:43:35.:43:37.

something like, is that it doesn't protect you from sexually

:43:38.:43:41.

transmitted infections, which are on the rise slightly any way. Don't you

:43:42.:43:46.

worry about that? I mean people when they go to get this stockpile are

:43:47.:43:51.

going to have to be educated about all types of contraception any way,

:43:52.:43:56.

so I don't think people will become less aware of condoms or use them

:43:57.:44:00.

less because that is the thing they will still have access to or still

:44:01.:44:04.

be taught about. What is your anxiety about the rise, you

:44:05.:44:09.

mentioned it a moment a a rise in sexually transmitted infections? I

:44:10.:44:13.

think actually having this so readily available will actually

:44:14.:44:19.

increase STDs, although people are not educated enough about sexually

:44:20.:44:23.

transmitted diseases and things like that, so having this available is ju

:44:24.:44:27.

going to be adding to the fuel it is OK for me to have sex, society says

:44:28.:44:32.

it is acceptable, we're able now to get these things for free and it is

:44:33.:44:38.

going to be fooling it. You think there will be a rise in infections?

:44:39.:44:43.

Absolutely. As a direct consequence of this policy? I think people will

:44:44.:44:48.

be turning to condoms less and use the morning-after-pill a lot more.

:44:49.:44:51.

Do you worry about girls, particularly young girls, this is

:44:52.:44:54.

applying to girls under the age of consent being more vulnerable to

:44:55.:44:59.

pressure to have early sex now the young man says, well I haven't got a

:45:00.:45:05.

condom but you can get those morning-after-pills no trouble? I

:45:06.:45:08.

think generally people need to be educated more about relationships

:45:09.:45:11.

and consent. I think that's part of a wider issue and it is all about

:45:12.:45:16.

education. I mean obviously peer pressure has always existed and

:45:17.:45:20.

probably will always exist, but the more we educate people in be this

:45:21.:45:25.

stuff, the more likely that is it won't happen in the future. That's

:45:26.:45:30.

it for tonight, we leave you with a viral video of the day filmed by

:45:31.:45:36.

Karen Jones from Houston Texas, she recorded a fire in the building near

:45:37.:45:41.

her home and the construction worker trapped near the edge of it. Oh my

:45:42.:45:46.

God. Is that a construction guy? Yeah, he was inside there, do they

:45:47.:45:57.

fricking see him. Oh God, oh my God, oh no, oh no. Oh my God. Hell, he

:45:58.:46:08.

can jump from there, hell yes. Oh thank yes subjection thank you God.

:46:09.:46:24.

Oh my God! (Screaming) oh no, my God! Oh!

:46:25.:46:27.

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