03/04/2014 Newsnight


03/04/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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sandstorm hitting the south-east of England to wake people up to the

:00:00.:00:11.

fact that a pollution is a real and present danger in the UK. Newsnight

:00:12.:00:16.

has found out there have been 60 similar incidents in the last five

:00:17.:00:20.

years, none of them has received this level of media attention. We

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ask the World Health Organisation how seriously we should be taking

:00:24.:00:28.

this. Jimmy Carter, the 37th President of the United States tells

:00:29.:00:33.

Newsnight how he would deal with intelligence whistle-blower, Edward

:00:34.:00:36.

Snowden, if he were still in the White House. If he comes home and

:00:37.:00:42.

tried and guilty and incarcerated and if I was President, a lot of if,

:00:43.:00:46.

I would certainly consider giving him pardon. A remarkable story from

:00:47.:00:52.

the Rwandan genocide. He said you can't kill these people, you can't

:00:53.:00:59.

take them out at all. I refuse that. And he offered him arms and said if

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you want to take them, you kill me. 20 years on we tell the incredible

:01:04.:01:09.

story of the unsung UN peacekeeper who saved hundreds of lives. As the

:01:10.:01:15.

Royal Shakespeare Company revive as trio of Jacobean play, unlike most

:01:16.:01:19.

of the works of the barred gave women top billing, Fiona and show is

:01:20.:01:24.

here to debate putting women in their place.

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Good evening, the Saharan dust, which mixed with other pollutants

:01:34.:01:38.

has been caution itchy eyes, noses and breathing difficulties in much

:01:39.:01:42.

of the UK has raised alarm about increased levels of pollution. But

:01:43.:01:46.

Newsnight's analysis suggests these levels are not at all unusual, just

:01:47.:01:57.

we are normally unaware of them. None of this is new, of course, in

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1903 when Monet set his easal next to the Thames, he said a London

:02:05.:02:08.

without its fog would not be a beautiful city. 111 years later and

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to the naked eye the picture is much clearer. But pollution readings over

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the past week have alarmed scientists and medical doctors.

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Today London and the south-east both hit the highest alert levels set by

:02:22.:02:24.

the Government. The Prime Minister described the capital's atmosphere

:02:25.:02:28.

as unpleasant. In the time that Monet painted that picture, most of

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the pollution in London and most of the cities in the UK came from coal

:02:33.:02:35.

burning, there was a period in the 1990s where we felt like we had

:02:36.:02:39.

largely dealt with air pollution as an urban problem. We haven't, what

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has happened since then is the amount of pollution from traffic and

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industries has increased and as we are seeing this week pollution is

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still a problem which affects many cities in Europe and the UK. How

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often does this happen? The answer is far more often than maybe you

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would think. This is the governments pollution map, London and east yang

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are at the top level, meaning everyone with breathing difficulties

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should avoid strenuous activities, warning was in place for four other

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regions. Forget the media coverage and go back a week, similar

:03:18.:03:21.

Government alerts at level ten were again in force, this time in the

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East Midlands and Yorkshire and Humberside and only picked up by

:03:25.:03:28.

handful of local papers. In fact, Newsnight has found that over the

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past five years there have been 422 incidents of high air pollution at

:03:34.:03:38.

level seven or above. With 61 incidents at the top level of ten,

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very few were publicised If pollution is common why all the

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media attention from politicians and media. In big towns it is almost

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impossible to see at street level. Modern air pollution comes from

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vehicle emission, microscopic and impossible to see with the naked

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eye. In this case southerly winds have been blowing up from North

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Africa, when it rains sand from The Sahara has been dumped on cars and

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windows so we can see and feel it. It is easy to see the dust, it is

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there. The types of pollution that we are measuring in the monitoring

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networks and the types of pollution that have an affect on people's

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health are microscopic particle, particles about the size of a virus.

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So small that when you breathe them in they can get deep into the lining

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of your lungs and make it through into the bloodstream. That is the

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main difference between how pollution used to be in London and

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the types of pollution we have now. But there may be a second simple

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reason for all this media attention. On Tuesday responsibility for

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forecasting pollution levels switched from the aDomic energy

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agency to the Met Office. While That means those alerts suddenly started

:05:03.:05:08.

to show up regularly on the weather forecasts. The effect of all this on

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health is hard to measure, at least in the short-term. Today the Prime

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Minister gave up his normal morning jog because of the pollution scare,

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though he then appeared to play it down, calling it a natural

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phenomenon. But the Government's own advisers on this estimate air

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pollution is factor in at least 29,000 early deaths a year in the

:05:30.:05:33.

UK. More than twice as many as passive smoking.

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Exposure to air pollution in the UK leads to an average shortening of

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life for about six months. On high-pollution days those most at

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risk are the elderly and those P with preexisting conditions. These

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people are more likely to develop symptoms and leading to emergency

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hospital admission or even death. The deaths that occur on

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high-pollution days are thought to be people who will woo die within a

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few weeks any way and the pollution is putting them over the edge. What

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can pollutions and Government do this be this? Last month Paris

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imposed emergency measures only allowing those with even or odd

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number plates drive on alternate days in the city centre. The

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Government had agreed to bring air pollution down to safe levels by

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2015, they have said that won't happen until 2025, the delay means

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the UK is facing legal action from the European Commission and a group

:06:29.:06:31.

of environmental lawyers. I believe that we have a riot to breathe clean

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air, I believe that -- a right to breathe clean air strikes and I

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believe we shouldn't havor woey -- shouldn't have to worry about

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children breathing clean air. It is a major problem and isn't being

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taken seriously, I think we need to take legal action and force

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Government to do something about it. Saharan sand will wash off soon

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enough and the smog will left. It is the effect of regularly breaching

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pollution controls in the long-term that could be the cost to the

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environment and to our health. We asked to speak to someone from the

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department for the environment and from the Department of Health, but

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we were told no-one was available. So to discuss this I'm joined now by

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an expert in air pollution from the World Health Organisation, and Roy

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Harris a Professor of Environmental Health from the University of

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Birmingham. First of all I suppose we should be thankful for the

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Saharan sandstorm because it has alerted ordinary people to the

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presence of quite often high levels of air pollution? I think you are

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right. What it has done is to reinforce the high levels that we

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would have been seeing any way because of the air coming over from

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the near continent. But it is very obvious the way it is soiling the

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cars and windows and so on. It has very much highlighted the issue,

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which is very good news for us. 422 incidents in the last five years of

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pollution levels between 7 and 10, 29,000 premature deaths what should

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the Government do about it? Legislation operates at a number of

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levels it is not purely in the hand of the UK Government. It is also the

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European Union which has actually been very active in the past in

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driving forward policies on air quality. The only answer in the long

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run is to reduce emission, there are many ways of doing that. It is not

:08:30.:08:32.

cheap do it and much has been achieved in the past. But if we want

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to see air quality improve in future, reductions in emissions is

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the only way to do it. You talk about the EU, and coming to you

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doctor, at the moment let's deal with the UK first. The EU has

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launched legal proceedings against the UK because it has failed to

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reach the levels of chemicals requested. How bad is Britain's

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record in this? The World Health Organisation has said in some norms

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and standards, most of the European countries are following those

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standards and they don't deviate much from that, except on

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exceptional occasions. But it is true that we would like to see an

:09:17.:09:20.

increase and improvement on the way we are dealing with air pollution in

:09:21.:09:25.

the fact that we need to breathe clean air if we want to have a

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better health. So we would like to see in the European countries, even

:09:30.:09:33.

if they are among the best countries in the world, an increase and an

:09:34.:09:38.

improvement in the situation. That will be resulting in a better health

:09:39.:09:42.

for everyone. That is primarily by reducing C O2 emissions? We need to

:09:43.:09:51.

do a kind of diagnosis. It will be depending very much on each city.

:09:52.:09:56.

You need to do an assessment from where those sources of emissions are

:09:57.:10:02.

coming. In most parts of the time the emissions are coming from

:10:03.:10:07.

traffic, so taking decisions on a more sustainable public transport

:10:08.:10:14.

system, energy efficiency for the buildings, and measure that is will

:10:15.:10:18.

increase the possibility for cities to work and to bike -- citizens to

:10:19.:10:23.

work and bike and have a better lifestyle, reducing the use of

:10:24.:10:26.

private vehicles will be contributing to the reduction of the

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emissions. As mentioned it is difficult but it is physical, it is

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feasible and it is demonstrated as possible. There are many experiences

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proving that. Clearly David Cameron took it seriously this morning, he

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didn't go for his jog. But do we have to take measures like they have

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done in par risks for example, in -- Paris, for example, in city centres

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to limit traffic at any one time. Do we have to do radical things like

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that? I don't think these kinds of panic measure, such as they took in

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Paris are terribly effective. You need long-term action and more

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widespread action. This pollution arises not only from emissions, very

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locally, it is not only emissions in London that affect London, it is

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emissions right over the European continent. For some pollutants even

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further away than Europe. You need a bigger action than that. That is KWL

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why I think the main driver should be an action at European level

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because the commission has the power to take action on these things. It

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made proposals in December of last year, forthure changes in air

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quality policy, which quite frankly I regard as complacent. So would you

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agree that more can be done at the European level, are you happy in

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relation to what is happening for example in China that Europe overall

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is performing reasonably well? I think it is quite clear that the

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measures in Europe, but as well the cities can take certain measures, it

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is difficult for the citizens for themselves. It is going beyond the

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controls of individuals in many places, you can't decide the quality

:12:09.:12:12.

of the air you breathe. But by raising awareness, the citizens can

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put a lot of generating pressures on policy by measures of city, national

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and international levels, that is extremely important. I would like to

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remind that there was a report presented a couple of weeks ago, one

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week ago saying that we have an estimate of seven million deaths

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linked to air pollution globally, which makes air pollution one of the

:12:43.:12:47.

most significant global risks for health. It is clear that most of

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those deaths are occurring in low and middle income countries, but

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still, we are very much concerned as citizens from all around the world.

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We have measures that have proved to be effect yes . The former US

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President, Jimmy Carter has told Newsnight that if he was still in

:13:10.:13:15.

the White House he would consider pardoning Snowden. In a wide-ranging

:13:16.:13:18.

interview, starting with a discussion about his new book, A

:13:19.:13:22.

Call To Action, which decries the world's discrimination of violence

:13:23.:13:25.

against women and girls, President Carter goes on to claim that US

:13:26.:13:28.

influence in the world has been damaged in recent years by American

:13:29.:13:32.

involvement in so many wars. He was the last US President to visit Iran

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and was in the White House during the embassy hostage crisis in which

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52 Americans were held for 444 days. First his book, I put it to him he

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seemed very troubled by elements of organised religion that do great

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damage to women. I'm deeply troubled, it is not just religion.

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Quite often the secular world is the most guilty of persecuting women.

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For instance in my country we pay women 23% less than we do men for

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the same work. We have tremendous sexual assaults on our college

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campuses and even our greatest universities, they have the same

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thing that happens within the mill treatment and we have a -- military,

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and we have a terrible degree of slave trade in America. The US State

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Department is required by law to do this every year now, reported it

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last year, 100,000 young girls were sold into sexual slavery in the

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United States itself. In the book you look at different countries, and

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you focus for a very short while on Saudi Arabia, and you talk about

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Saudi Arabia's upping of oil production in the Iran-Iraq War

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coming to America's aid. I wonder if you pull your punches in Saudi

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Arabia, as you say 78% of female graduates are unemployed because of

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religious and cultural opposition. That is dreadful figure that? It is,

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at least under King Abdullah the women have been given a free chance

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for higher education and college and even up to graduate level. When they

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do finish college training they have a very difficult time within the

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Saudi culture to actually get a productive job. And they are

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obviously constrained still by the customs that a woman has to be

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escorted by man on the street, can't drive an car or ride a bicycle. At

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the moment the Iranians are trying to send a new ambassador to the UN

:15:37.:15:41.

who was one of the hostage takers at the American Embassy in Tehran,

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should America give him a visa or not? I hope so, I see no reason to

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prevent this person of serving as the official representative of Iran.

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You have to remember that those people who took my hostages back in

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1979 were college student, they were young people, I don't think they

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should be held culpable for that incident now 35 years later. On the

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broader question of American foreign policy, President Obama has been

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criticised for not taking a firmer stand on Crimea. Do you worry about

:16:15.:16:21.

renewed Russian expansionism? Well I don't think there was any way to

:16:22.:16:25.

prevent Putin from going in to Crimea, no matter what the European

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Union did, no matter what the Americans did. That was still going

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to happen. Because I have known this situation for 35 or 40 years and

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there is no doubt that Russians all considered Crimea to be part of

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Russia and about three-quarters of the Crimean people who speak Russian

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wanted to be part of Russia. That was a foregone conclusion. I think

:16:49.:16:51.

the Russian military advance has to be stopped there. I don't think we

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can permit Russia to have military adventures in other parts of eastern

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Ukraine. Is America in a way damaged by very different things, of

:17:05.:17:09.

Afghanistan and Iraq, do you think it has reduced America's confidence

:17:10.:17:15.

in itself and its confidence in pursuing an act of foreign policy of

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prevention? I think it has been some what damaging. America is still the

:17:24.:17:26.

most powerful nation in the world there is no doubt about that, our

:17:27.:17:30.

military, economic power and cultural influence, all I think are

:17:31.:17:33.

still the most powerful. We are the only superpower in the world. But I

:17:34.:17:38.

think that our influence has been a damage to some degree by constantly

:17:39.:17:43.

going into bilateral wars. I mentioned in my book that since the

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Second World War, since the United Nations was founded, ostensibly to

:17:47.:17:51.

put an to end this kind of thing that the United States has been

:17:52.:17:56.

involved in about 30 countries, and armed conflict. I think that is one

:17:57.:17:59.

of the things that has given our country bad reputation as far as

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peace and human rights is concerned. One thing that you are, you have

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been talking about recently is the fact that you use what is called

:18:07.:18:12.

"snail mail", that you actually write everything down. I wonder the

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whole US scandal over intelligence, do you think the intelligence

:18:16.:18:18.

gathering in the United States is out of control? Yes I do. I think it

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got out of control after 9/11. When I was in the White House I passed an

:18:26.:18:33.

act called the FISA Act, that required before any single telephone

:18:34.:18:39.

conversation was monitored, that a very balanced judge, panel of judges

:18:40.:18:44.

had to approve it. That was completely eliminated after 9/11.

:18:45.:18:48.

And I think the intelligence committees of the House and Senate

:18:49.:18:53.

in the United States Congress, have passed legislation which other

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members of Congress were not permitted because it was top secret.

:18:57.:19:00.

I think the NSA went further than the legislation permitted. In your

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view, what about Edward Snowden, should he be allowed to come home

:19:05.:19:07.

without fear of being locked up for the rest of his life? Well, I'm not

:19:08.:19:14.

advising him what to do, but if he comes home, it is obvious that

:19:15.:19:17.

Edward Snowden has violated laws and he will have to be put on trial, if

:19:18.:19:21.

he comes home and is tried and found guilty, if he was incarcerated and I

:19:22.:19:28.

was President, a lot of "ifs" then I would certainly consider giving him

:19:29.:19:32.

a pardon! But it would be based on the fact that the punishment, in my

:19:33.:19:37.

own personal opinion, exceeded the harm that he did to our country.

:19:38.:19:45.

Thank you very much indeed. It was the political scandal that put some

:19:46.:19:50.

MPs in jail, but today the cabinet minister, Maria Miller got the

:19:51.:19:55.

fulsome support of the Prime Minister, despite the fact she was

:19:56.:19:59.

censured by the Standards Committee for hindering an inquiry into her

:20:00.:20:05.

expenses claims. She was forced into a humiliating apology on the floor

:20:06.:20:10.

of the House and has to repay overpaid accommodation expenses.

:20:11.:20:16.

What happened to tough David Cameron on cleaning up expenses. What

:20:17.:20:20.

exactly did she do? She is one of four women in the cabinet. That is

:20:21.:20:23.

politically significant, she was accused of claiming ?90,000 worth of

:20:24.:20:27.

tax-payers' money for a house where she lived with her parents. Now,

:20:28.:20:31.

what the commission has decided in all their wisdom is that arrangement

:20:32.:20:35.

in principle was OK, but she did overcharge a little bit and an

:20:36.:20:39.

administrativer Yorks they called t as a result she's having to pay back

:20:40.:20:45.

nearly ?6,000. Humiliating she became the first serving cabinet

:20:46.:20:49.

minister to have to say sorry from the benches of the House of Commons.

:20:50.:20:53.

After an investigation of nearly a year-and-a-half, it came down to

:20:54.:20:59.

this 32-second apology. With permission With permission I wish to

:21:00.:21:03.

make a personal statement after today's report. It resulted in an

:21:04.:21:08.

allegation made by a member, the committee has dismissed the

:21:09.:21:11.

allegation. The committee has recommended that I apologise to the

:21:12.:21:17.

House for my attitude to the commissioner's inquiries, and I of

:21:18.:21:22.

course unreservedly apologise. I fully accept the recommendations of

:21:23.:21:25.

the committee, and thank them for bringing this matter to an end. Not

:21:26.:21:31.

exactly contrite, and not just the fact that she gave such a short

:21:32.:21:35.

apology, you might think she was in disGRASHGS but look at this, behind

:21:36.:21:38.

her, not just your normal backbenchers, or Government whip,

:21:39.:21:42.

but the cabinet minister Jeremy Hunt who moved from the front bench to

:21:43.:21:46.

the backbench to give her visible support, and Sir George Young a very

:21:47.:21:50.

senior Conservative indeed. That tells us that the tof the

:21:51.:21:53.

Conservative Party is tonight fully behind her.

:21:54.:21:58.

Did she sort of get off? The independent commissioner,

:21:59.:22:01.

fascinatingly, the independent, overseen by a member of MPs said she

:22:02.:22:06.

should have paid back ?40,000. What is also striking is the tone of her

:22:07.:22:11.

letters to the commissioner, where she really, really dragged her feet

:22:12.:22:15.

at every step of the way. And that is actually what landed her in

:22:16.:22:18.

trouble. One MP said to me it was the bullying way that she tried to

:22:19.:22:22.

get out of it that actually led to her having to say sorry. It is

:22:23.:22:25.

extraordinary because at the height of the expenses scandal, when people

:22:26.:22:30.

were guilty, I have to say, lots of people went to jail? They did, and

:22:31.:22:34.

believe it or not it is five years since that all blew up in the first

:22:35.:22:38.

place. What is interesting is that many MPs I have spoken to today have

:22:39.:22:42.

said the rules are ING Chad, we have all moved on and nobody thinks that

:22:43.:22:47.

she was fiddling things on purpose, she made mistakes. The public might

:22:48.:22:51.

feel rather differently. Tonight a couple of the front pages. The Times

:22:52.:22:57.

here, "fury grows as expenses row minister clings to job" and "MPs

:22:58.:23:03.

compeer to save Miller". One of the problems was MPs were judging

:23:04.:23:09.

themselves, that is part of what is happening in this case. This weekend

:23:10.:23:14.

it will be exactly 20 years since the start of the genocide in Rwanda

:23:15.:23:20.

when ethnic Hutus started to wipe out minority ethnic Tutsis and

:23:21.:23:25.

moderate Hutus too. 00,000 people were killed in three short months

:23:26.:23:30.

and thousand of women raped. Few of the perpetrators have ever been

:23:31.:23:33.

brought to justice t amongst the horror were acts of goodness too. An

:23:34.:23:39.

unarmed United Nations peacekeeper from Senegal personally saved

:23:40.:23:44.

hundreds of lives. The BBC's international development

:23:45.:23:46.

correspondent covered the genocide back in 1994. Now, with the passing

:23:47.:23:53.

of time, Mark returned to Rwanda to explore his story, a story which has

:23:54.:23:58.

never been told in full before. Mark's film contains some extremely

:23:59.:24:05.

disturbing images. Automatic fire could be heard from

:24:06.:24:09.

invite the city. In the midst of the horror of the genocide an

:24:10.:24:13.

extraordinary man saved hundreds of lives. Cap Dane Diane was an unarmed

:24:14.:24:25.

observer from the African state of Senegal. In 1994 there was a small

:24:26.:24:32.

peacekeeping force in Rwanda. When violence engulfed the country the

:24:33.:24:35.

force was totally overwhelmed, but the captain was not. Going well

:24:36.:24:41.

beyond his official mandate he set out to rescue as many people as he

:24:42.:24:48.

could. One of the first people to be targeted by the Government-sponsored

:24:49.:24:52.

killers was the Prime Minister. She and her husband were murdered in

:24:53.:24:56.

their residence. But they had managed to hide their children, who

:24:57.:25:00.

were also in the sights of the killers in a neighbouring house,

:25:01.:25:05.

where forreners lived. The daughter of the assassinated Prime Minister

:25:06.:25:09.

has never spoken about these traumatic events before. Or about

:25:10.:25:14.

the role the captain had in saving her life 20 years ago.

:25:15.:25:45.

There was some debate about UN official about what to do with the

:25:46.:25:50.

children. The UN mandate was to observe. It wasn't clear what it was

:25:51.:25:55.

supposed to do when it came to saving Rwandans. But on humanitarian

:25:56.:26:01.

ground the captain decided to act any way. He bundled the children

:26:02.:26:08.

into his car, hid them under a tarpaulin and drove them to the

:26:09.:26:10.

safety of the hotel. The commander of the UN peacekeeping

:26:11.:27:00.

force in Rwanda in 1994 was Canadian general Romeo Dallaire. There is no

:27:01.:27:07.

way to describe how gutsy he was, it was the Victoria Cross type of

:27:08.:27:11.

action. Millions of people were displaced as the conflict escalate.

:27:12.:27:15.

Most Rwandans and other Africans were left to their fate. This

:27:16.:27:23.

horrified captain Mbaye was spurred on. There was no grand plan left,

:27:24.:27:28.

the UN in fact three weeks into the genocide was still arguing whether

:27:29.:27:31.

or not I was allowed to protect anybody. And so they are debating it

:27:32.:27:36.

meanwhile we are in the field and guys like Mbaye are saving bodies

:27:37.:27:40.

left right and centre, pulling them out and trying to get them to the

:27:41.:27:44.

airport. It was a core of people who had a sense of humanity that went

:27:45.:27:51.

well beyond their orders. The militia tried time after time to

:27:52.:27:55.

break into the hotel where Marie Christine and hundreds of others

:27:56.:28:01.

were hiding. Survivors say Captain Mbaye, who was stationed there, was

:28:02.:28:05.

the key man in a thin blue line of UN peacekeepers who kept the militia

:28:06.:28:12.

out. This doctor was among those hiding at the hotel. As the battle

:28:13.:28:17.

for central Kigali raged and the militias were hammering at the door,

:28:18.:28:22.

Captain Mbaye ordered a convoy of lorries to take some of them to

:28:23.:28:26.

safety. But the militia attacked the convoy on this hill. They tried to

:28:27.:28:30.

pull us out. They climbed on top of the lorry to pull you out? To pull

:28:31.:28:35.

us out. What was the captain doing at that time? He said you can't pull

:28:36.:28:39.

these people, you can't kill these people, you can't take them out at

:28:40.:28:44.

all. I refuse that. And he offered these arms, if you want to take them

:28:45.:28:56.

you first kill me. To find out more about what made this extraordinary

:28:57.:29:00.

army captain tick, I drafted to his home country of Senegal to meet his

:29:01.:29:06.

family. In the living room a citation of bravery from the state

:29:07.:29:12.

department in Washington. It said Captain Mbaye personally saved as

:29:13.:29:14.

many as 600 lives. Do you remember anything else about

:29:15.:29:52.

that last conversation that you had? Captain Mbaye's luck ran out on May

:29:53.:29:59.

31st 1994. There had been talk on the walkie talkies of a military

:30:00.:30:04.

observer having been killed near the Kigali nightclub, and Captain Mbaye

:30:05.:30:08.

had stopped at that checkpoint, it was quite clear that a mortar bomb

:30:09.:30:15.

or rocket had landed just behind the driver's position, because there was

:30:16.:30:19.

shrapnel that had gone through the passenger door and we know that some

:30:20.:30:26.

of that shrapnel hit Captain Mbaye's head. There was blood on the seat

:30:27.:30:29.

and that had gathered in the foot well as well. And that's how he

:30:30.:30:31.

died. So one man saved hundreds of lives

:30:32.:31:16.

in Rwanda. But the genocide claimed 800,000, there is no moral

:31:17.:31:23.

equivalence. But we now know that one man with extraordinary courage

:31:24.:31:27.

did simply what he thought was right. Desdemona, Opheila, Titania,

:31:28.:31:43.

even the impossible shre wait, it is hard to think of any of them

:31:44.:31:48.

triumphing in Shakespeare's plays, some of his less well known cop temp

:31:49.:31:53.

radios wrote plays featuring bold female characters. Now the RSA is

:31:54.:31:57.

attempting to make good the deficit and putting on three of them under

:31:58.:32:04.

the titles of The Roaring Girl. Here is a clip of the play, spliced with

:32:05.:32:17.

the views of the director, Joe Davies. I described it to someone

:32:18.:32:23.

the other day as a Jacobean pussy ride, you get the sense of the

:32:24.:32:35.

energy of the piece! She quip, s, she smokes she sings, and a force of

:32:36.:32:39.

nature the moment she steps on the stage. Joining me are my guests.

:32:40.:32:57.

Fiona. First of all, you know Shakespeare's plays intimately, do

:32:58.:32:59.

you think it was his way of doing it, or was the stories that he was

:33:00.:33:06.

telling that was it? To make the women... Secondary? : He doesn't

:33:07.:33:11.

always make them secondary, some of them are very central. Rosalind is

:33:12.:33:17.

very central, they are secondary in the universe, the world they are

:33:18.:33:21.

unifying usually ends in marriage. Where as the man's world is some how

:33:22.:33:25.

broader and more philosophical. You do feel that the women are just

:33:26.:33:29.

heading towards marriage. That is probably the limitation of it. Did

:33:30.:33:34.

Shakespeare had any limitations put on him, or were they

:33:35.:33:37.

self-limitations. There was the limitation of the fact that the

:33:38.:33:41.

female parts were played by male actors, essentially the theatrical

:33:42.:33:45.

profession was like a guild or trade. So the apprentice, the young

:33:46.:33:50.

men, teenage boys played the female parts. So inevitably the likelihood

:33:51.:33:58.

is the dramatist will of give the most grown-up parts to the lead

:33:59.:34:04.

actors and secondary parts to the younger actors. Not in the Jacobean

:34:05.:34:10.

plays? Two are Jacobean and a little later. The one I'm most interested

:34:11.:34:15.

in is Elizabethan, that is the earlier play and has the biggest

:34:16.:34:20.

part of the Elizabethan era but played by a boy actor. It doesn't

:34:21.:34:25.

end in marriage likes the Shakespeare ones, it begins in

:34:26.:34:29.

marriage, she has an fair and she and her lover kill the husband. On

:34:30.:34:32.

the basis of what the plays show about the male character, there is a

:34:33.:34:41.

lot of anteriority about the men in Shakespeare, women don't get that? I

:34:42.:34:44.

don't know if that is true. They mention some wonderful things about

:34:45.:34:49.

themselves, you mentioned about the annoying shrew, when it is said

:34:50.:34:56.

"good morrow Kate I hear that is your name", and she says, "they call

:34:57.:35:03.

me Katherine", her protection of her own name is her desire to be taken

:35:04.:35:07.

seriously. He was sympathetic in that way to them. He puts them

:35:08.:35:13.

through some strange things, Viola getting thrown up on a shore and the

:35:14.:35:19.

forests foreanother. They are bigger than they started out as. Do you

:35:20.:35:23.

think they have a universality. The whole idea about Shakespeare is it

:35:24.:35:28.

is the universality that we can relate to now? My frustration is

:35:29.:35:31.

ultimately not with them, because Jonathan is right because the

:35:32.:35:35.

company composition and the way in which only male characters played

:35:36.:35:39.

female characters had a limitation. Just if their world ends in marriage

:35:40.:35:45.

and nowadays many women's lives begin with marriage and maybe

:35:46.:35:48.

another marriage the plays are not reflect, they are not a mirror up to

:35:49.:35:53.

nature to our experience of our entire lives. It is interesting that

:35:54.:35:58.

he has to have the Romeo Juliet and ant though and Cleopatra, he

:35:59.:36:04.

could have had a wonderful play with Cleopatra centre stage without

:36:05.:36:07.

Anthony. Cleopatra is an interesting cautious I have a feeling in the

:36:08.:36:13.

earlier part of Shakespeare's career when Queen Elizabeth is on the

:36:14.:36:18.

throne, and there is a court censor censoring the makes he would have

:36:19.:36:22.

been wary of having a powerful female ruler on stage for fear of

:36:23.:36:26.

offending Elizabeth. Once she is dead he can put the stronger women,

:36:27.:36:33.

Cleopatra and Lady Macbeth, and now it is King James on the thrown and

:36:34.:36:38.

can he explore women in tour -- on the throne and he can explore women

:36:39.:36:44.

in power. You played Richard II back in the 199 #0S, what was it like

:36:45.:36:49.

playing a male part? It was difficult, I missed that I hadn't a

:36:50.:36:53.

male history in my childhood in the playing of it, but it is in such

:36:54.:36:58.

high poetry that Richard II is hardly a man, he is a God-boy, I

:36:59.:37:03.

could do that I felt. I could play into the sense of an overblown sense

:37:04.:37:08.

of self and slowly he become as human being. In that way it was

:37:09.:37:12.

fantastic pleasure to reach down into someone whose relationship was

:37:13.:37:19.

to infinity rather than marriage. What about different ways of playing

:37:20.:37:26.

Sheikhs peer, -- Shakespeare, we have had all-female shakes ferrics

:37:27.:37:34.

and do -- Shakespeare, and do we have to keep doing it differently? I

:37:35.:37:40.

think we do. I think Shakespeare is always fascinated by cross-dressing,

:37:41.:37:45.

and in The Roaring Girl, it is a woman who cross dresses and so many

:37:46.:37:49.

of the best plays of that time are breaking down the traditional gender

:37:50.:37:55.

roles. It is really a time when the public theatre is taking off as a

:37:56.:38:00.

space where questions about traditional hierarchies, whether

:38:01.:38:05.

begined e respect for the young and -- gender, or respect for young and

:38:06.:38:09.

old are being questioneded. Your mind expands in the playing of them.

:38:10.:38:15.

Rosalind speaks in verse when she is tied up, when she gets to the forest

:38:16.:38:19.

it is prose, Beatrice is witty because she speaks in prose. There

:38:20.:38:23.

is literally a text that becomes like a musical notation, that makes

:38:24.:38:30.

the form itself expand. First the upmarket supermarket Waitrose hired

:38:31.:38:35.

Kate Middleton's sister to write for its monthly magazine, it's probably

:38:36.:38:39.

delighted that David Cameron became its unofficial cheer leader,

:38:40.:38:43.

offering his supermarket sociology that there is something about

:38:44.:38:46.

Waitrose customer, they are talkative and engaged people. Now

:38:47.:38:51.

one of the supermarket's most famous customer, he was called stuck up by

:38:52.:38:59.

Labour and a world away from most families who have to shop around for

:39:00.:39:03.

best prices. We went to do our own supermarket sweep. When you own

:39:04.:39:07.

something you care a little more. This is an advert for a leading high

:39:08.:39:12.

street grocer, I can only identify as Waitrose. And here is another

:39:13.:39:19.

plug for Waitrose. Or at least their shoppers. I have got an interesting

:39:20.:39:24.

supermarket piece of sociology for you, which is there is something

:39:25.:39:28.

about Waitrose customers is they are the most talkative. I find if I shop

:39:29.:39:32.

in Waitrose it takes me twice as long, because everybody wants to

:39:33.:39:36.

stop you and have a chat. Where as other supermarkets I can dart around

:39:37.:39:40.

quickly. That is something about your customers, they are talkative

:39:41.:39:49.

and engaged people. You might be tempted to say "bog off" to that, as

:39:50.:39:58.

in buy one get one free that is what gets me to the supermarket. Let's

:39:59.:40:02.

see what a shopping watcher makes of the PM's remarks. Statistically he's

:40:03.:40:07.

correct in that Waitrose shoppers are a class above everyone else, as

:40:08.:40:11.

in the proportion of their shoppers who come from the AB socioeconomic

:40:12.:40:17.

group, you and I might call middle council tax they have a far greater

:40:18.:40:20.

number than any other supermarket. I don't think he. I don't think he

:40:21.:40:26.

said they were nicer people, he said they were more edge gauged and

:40:27.:40:31.

talkative -- engaged and talkative? Some people have interpreted it as

:40:32.:40:35.

shorthand for a cut above. I'm not saying they are better people but

:40:36.:40:39.

they are more middle-class than Morrisons or Asda shoppers. More

:40:40.:40:42.

than half of all supermarket shoppers belong to the top

:40:43.:40:47.

socioeconomic groups, Morrisons' figures correspond closely to the

:40:48.:40:52.

average. At Waitrose stores more than three quarters of customers are

:40:53.:40:56.

from a professional background. But at Iceland roughly the same

:40:57.:41:02.

percentage are from the lower socioeconomic bands. No you haven't

:41:03.:41:08.

flipped over to National Geographic. What do we have here, this looks

:41:09.:41:13.

like something from a gym or a sauna rather than a supermarket? This is

:41:14.:41:18.

Morrisons very purposefully trying to appeal to the middle-classes

:41:19.:41:21.

with, it looks great, it is very theatrical, but this is going for

:41:22.:41:25.

the foodies, with the mist. I'm assured it service a purpose but I

:41:26.:41:29.

think it is mostly to look nice. Doesn't it keep everything fresh?

:41:30.:41:34.

Well. So would a chiller cabinet. This is interesting because

:41:35.:41:38.

Morrisons comes from, it is Bradford roots, it was a discount, value

:41:39.:41:42.

retailer, started by the Morrisons family, and it wants to appeal to a

:41:43.:41:46.

different type of people. How do you do it? Simply visually by making

:41:47.:41:50.

things look like they have come straight out a very upmarket Delhi.

:41:51.:42:02.

Deli. Some people it think it is what the hell? We offer a diversity

:42:03.:42:09.

of produce that people expect to BIECHLT we are a supermarket that

:42:10.:42:12.

represent people from all walks of life. You will see customers poor,

:42:13.:42:19.

rich, people from different ethnic communities and we are proud to

:42:20.:42:27.

serve them. Somebody compared the self-service store with a lending

:42:28.:42:34.

library. Once we all got used to the shock of

:42:35.:42:37.

the supermarket, pleasant or otherwise, it seemed as though there

:42:38.:42:42.

was a store to suit every pocket. Or rather class. In the classic British

:42:43.:42:48.

way. But new arrivals have helped to change that, say some. The biggest

:42:49.:42:51.

change we have seen over the last five years a very rapid growth of

:42:52.:42:57.

both Aldi and Lidl, and also Waitrose, which is putting pressure

:42:58.:43:00.

on what really is the middle ground on the larger group of supermarkets.

:43:01.:43:05.

And as those outlets have got bigger they have tended to move closer to

:43:06.:43:10.

the average. So Aldi and Lidl tend to have social demographics that are

:43:11.:43:13.

getting close to the national average, and the old stigma perhaps

:43:14.:43:19.

of carrying a shopping basket from there is rapidly disappearing. Would

:43:20.:43:23.

we find shoppers in Morrisons to live up to the PM's expectations of

:43:24.:43:32.

in-store banter? Is there anything to I what Mr Cameron says that in

:43:33.:43:37.

Waitrose you meet talkative people? Do you in here, I never use Waitrose

:43:38.:43:42.

I wouldn't know about it. Would you describe yourself as a Morrisons

:43:43.:43:49.

woman? No, I could be in Harrods one day and here the next. So was Mr

:43:50.:43:57.

Cameron well advised to big up his experiences at the supermarket or

:43:58.:44:00.

was it case of unexpected item in bragging area! We should also let

:44:01.:44:07.

you know that you can watch a longer version of our Rwanda film as part

:44:08.:44:14.

of the Our World strand this weekend on BBC News channel. Now one of the

:44:15.:44:18.

great lost treasures of British film has been improbably recovered from a

:44:19.:44:22.

Dutch archive. It is the silent movie Love Life and Laughter

:44:23.:44:28.

starring Betty Balfour and it has been on theritish Film Institute's

:44:29.:44:33.

most-wanted list for years. We have asked pianist Chris Rowe to play

:44:34.:44:38.

along to one of the scenes, the heroine in the bar is singing along

:44:39.:44:44.

to a tune well known from the 1920s, some of you may recognise it.

:44:45.:44:56.

This should be the last day of high pollution levels a change in wind

:44:57.:45:46.

direction tomorrow round to the south west will push that pollution

:45:47.:45:51.

out over the North Sea. Pleasant sunny spells breaking through across

:45:52.:45:54.

many parts of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, eventually central

:45:55.:45:58.

and southern Scotland. Sea mist may affect the east coast of Northern

:45:59.:46:02.

Ireland, but 14 degrees in land. The wind direction won't change across

:46:03.:46:05.

the east coast of Scotland, here staying pretty dull, cold and

:46:06.:46:09.

miserable, the north-east of England, offshore winds means a rise

:46:10.:46:14.

in temperature, but the south westly winds the key to pushing our

:46:15.:46:19.

pollution away across the rest of England and Wales. Still pretty mild

:46:20.:46:20.

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