07/04/2014 Newsnight


07/04/2014

News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including new Russian revolts in Ukraine, Maria Miller, 20 years since Rwanda, the death of Peaches Geldof, and will scientists find dark matter?


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warns Russia to back off eastern Ukraine or else. Or else what? With

:00:12.:00:20.

pro-Russian protestors unbowed, is the west's main weapon now bluster?

:00:21.:00:25.

Do Tory MPs want the Culture Secretary Miller to disappear? Well

:00:26.:00:33.

that's matter for her and the Prime Minister. I will make an

:00:34.:00:41.

observation, if I was in her position facing a difficult set of

:00:42.:00:44.

circumstances and a local election I wouldn't expect my colleagues to go

:00:45.:00:50.

around. We remember the Rwandan genocide? I covered my years, my

:00:51.:00:57.

family, my uncles family, I remember seeing all of them... It is said to

:00:58.:01:01.

be everywhere but we can't see it, are we about to find Dark Matter?

:01:02.:01:14.

Increasingly frantic appeals from people who say they are an oppressed

:01:15.:01:22.

minority. There is another way of looking at the crisis in Ukraine,

:01:23.:01:26.

Vladimir Putin sees the recent change of Government to be a coup

:01:27.:01:32.

carried out by Neo-Nazis. Could he order something similar to the

:01:33.:01:37.

seizing of Crimea in the rest of the country. A White House spokesman

:01:38.:01:41.

warned him to back off if he was planning anything like that overt or

:01:42.:01:49.

covert. We take stock. In the east Ukrainian city protesters have

:01:50.:01:53.

seized Government buildings and today announced the setting up of

:01:54.:02:03.

their own Republic. Russian TV made it their lead, while the interim

:02:04.:02:07.

Government in Kiev reeled from this fresh crisis. Somebody wants to make

:02:08.:02:15.

sure the new Government don't control all the country.

:02:16.:02:27.

It wasn't just there, here a security building was seized and in

:02:28.:02:37.

other cities there were clashes. If this apparent co-ordination was not

:02:38.:02:43.

suspicious enough, pro-Moscow activists in each city are talking

:02:44.:02:47.

about holding a referendum in the second week of May. Yesterday the

:02:48.:02:52.

second wave of the Russian federation's special operation

:02:53.:02:57.

against Ukraine started. The goal is to destablise the situation in the

:02:58.:03:00.

country, topple Ukrainian authorities, disrupt the elections

:03:01.:03:09.

and tear our country apart. Can troops close to Ukraine's borders

:03:10.:03:12.

the situation could now escalate very rapidly indeed. If it all seems

:03:13.:03:17.

like an exact replay of Crimea, it isn't quite. Crimean Government

:03:18.:03:22.

buildings were taken over by special for example where as those who

:03:23.:03:26.

started occupying buildings in eastern Ukraine yesterday are a more

:03:27.:03:30.

ran Dom selection of local toughs and activists, and it seems apparent

:03:31.:03:36.

that they don't want to unite with Russia, rather they want a new deal

:03:37.:03:43.

vis a vis Ukraine. I don't think if people demand freedom, democracy,

:03:44.:03:47.

the rights to vote, I don't think it is a bad thing. If Brussels will be

:03:48.:04:00.

taught they should respect the rights of the Ukrainian people.

:04:01.:04:06.

Nevertheless what was taken I think could be very good.

:04:07.:04:09.

The Russian goal is to create a new power structure in the Ukraine, in

:04:10.:04:14.

which the eastern provinces get federal powers and that allows them

:04:15.:04:19.

to stop any move for example closer to the EU by Ukraine as a whole. The

:04:20.:04:24.

reason though that this is going to become so dangerous is that many

:04:25.:04:28.

think the type of referendum now being proposed by the activists in

:04:29.:04:33.

the east can't take place. Unless there are Russian troops on the

:04:34.:04:38.

ground. So Ukraine's Government must now

:04:39.:04:41.

respond to this knowing much of the police in the east sides could be

:04:42.:04:47.

with Russian activists and there could be a large scale invasion

:04:48.:04:50.

triggered. Russia and the US have tonight been

:04:51.:05:14.

talking about renewed negotiations to resolve this crisis. And the

:05:15.:05:19.

stakes could hardly be higher. For the imperative now is not just to

:05:20.:05:24.

avoid conflict in eastern Ukraine but to prevent large scale western

:05:25.:05:28.

sanctions against Russia that could follow any invasion. Now we have

:05:29.:05:37.

President Obama's White House co-ordinator for weapons of mass

:05:38.:05:42.

destruction between 2009-2013, he's now at Harvard University, we have

:05:43.:05:48.

an expert in Russian foreign policy from St Anthony's College Oxford.

:05:49.:05:52.

What do you think is Putin's ambition in this situation? Well, I

:05:53.:06:02.

think President putt tin Putin is hoping to achieve this through the

:06:03.:06:07.

threat of force, including efforts to destablising eastern Ukraine. At

:06:08.:06:11.

the same time I am afraid if that doesn't work, if he's not able to

:06:12.:06:16.

achieve the changes in the Ukrainian institution constitution --

:06:17.:06:22.

constitutions he is seeking, I believe he's prepared to use force

:06:23.:06:28.

to seize and occupy parts of Ukraine. What is he seeking? Changes

:06:29.:06:32.

in the constitution of Ukraine that would protect Russian interests, so

:06:33.:06:37.

for example the proposals would make sure that the Government of Ukraine

:06:38.:06:43.

would not join any military alliance, for example, NATO. The

:06:44.:06:48.

propose changes would also create a federal structure so that the

:06:49.:06:52.

eastern provinces that are dominated by Russian speakers would constrain

:06:53.:06:57.

what the central Government in Kiev was prepared to do. And the Russians

:06:58.:07:01.

would like to see these changes put in place before the presidential

:07:02.:07:06.

elections in Ukraine that are scheduled for May 25th which, I

:07:07.:07:11.

don't think is very realistic, because the interim Government has

:07:12.:07:15.

not really been organised nor does it have the legitimacy to organise

:07:16.:07:21.

such a constitutional convention. So I'm afraid the Russians will push

:07:22.:07:25.

very hard. Let's see if there is a shared analysis? One thing is we

:07:26.:07:31.

overstrategyise Putin, we assume these are brilliant pre-laid plans.

:07:32.:07:35.

From the information coming out Crimea, the decision to take Crimea

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as it was taken probably preceded that by a fortnight. There were

:07:39.:07:43.

contingency plans, that is why it went smoothly. Broadly speaking

:07:44.:07:49.

Putin wants to have the old former Soviet Union, he wants sufficient

:07:50.:07:53.

leverage over Ukraine to prevent it becoming a member of NATO. But more

:07:54.:07:58.

than that I don't think. And to leverage it when he wants to. So his

:07:59.:08:02.

interest lies at the moment in translating discontent in the

:08:03.:08:07.

eastern parts of Ukraine with Kiev, which is very widespread, only 20%

:08:08.:08:11.

of south-east support the Government, into a leverageable

:08:12.:08:14.

situation where you can turn that into cause and demands for

:08:15.:08:19.

devolution within Ukraine. I don't think he wants the partition of

:08:20.:08:24.

Ukraine. From the way it seems to be playing out, hasn't the west tacitly

:08:25.:08:29.

accepted that this is Russia's sphere of influence? I think we have

:08:30.:08:33.

tacitly accepted that Crimea is gone. Crimea was a very special

:08:34.:08:39.

case. I don't think we have accepted that Russia has the right to

:08:40.:08:44.

partition at will Ukraine. Which is an independent, sovereign state. I

:08:45.:08:48.

don't think we have. It may not be what he's seeking? I don't think we

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have a policy though that is well thought through. As usual we rely on

:08:52.:08:56.

Washington to set a policy and strategy. At the moment from what I

:08:57.:09:01.

see I don't think we have a good will thought-through strategy in

:09:02.:09:05.

Washington. There are not many levers to be pulled are there? Well,

:09:06.:09:10.

we're certainly not going to defend Ukraine, we and the Europeans. I

:09:11.:09:16.

don't think the Ukrainians are capable of defending themselves,

:09:17.:09:22.

especial ly in the east. The big tool the Europeans have is the

:09:23.:09:26.

threat of serious economic sanctions which obviously have been withheld

:09:27.:09:31.

up to now. The sanctions that have been imposed so far have been mainly

:09:32.:09:37.

symbolic. Sanctions cut both ways. It is interesting to see how far

:09:38.:09:40.

Europe will be prepared to go in terms of sanctioning the gas sector.

:09:41.:09:44.

Which is obviously a huge step, but would hurt Europe as well as Russia.

:09:45.:09:49.

What do you think of the chances of serious sanctions being used? I

:09:50.:09:52.

think sanctions have a very poor track record throughout the world.

:09:53.:09:56.

We should hold out the prospect of sanctions, but what we should be

:09:57.:10:01.

doing now is also holding out the word to Russia that it is a great

:10:02.:10:05.

guardian of international law and make it actually do something.

:10:06.:10:08.

President Putin should go on television, let us say and appeal to

:10:09.:10:14.

his compatriots in eastern Ukraine to obey the law as they would in

:10:15.:10:21.

Russia. We need to make Russia hold to its word as an upholder of

:10:22.:10:25.

international order. We need to inject lots of money into Ukraine

:10:26.:10:28.

and make sure the eastern parts of Ukraine see some of that money from

:10:29.:10:33.

Kiev. Why would we do that? They feel it is not just a political

:10:34.:10:37.

pro-Russian anti-Kiev movement, it is also economic. In Crimea

:10:38.:10:41.

pensioners were delighted that their pensions would double when they

:10:42.:10:45.

became members of Russia. People in the region of industry which is rust

:10:46.:10:50.

built in many ways want a better standard of living. They feel they

:10:51.:10:55.

are being neglected by Kiev. Do you see any appetite to spend money in

:10:56.:11:00.

Ukraine? Well I agree with Alex that we should be trying to prop up the

:11:01.:11:06.

economy and help Ukrainians, but I frankly don't think that assistance

:11:07.:11:10.

can arrive in time to avert the current crisis. The big question is

:11:11.:11:14.

whether the Government in Kiev is prepared toe make some concessions

:11:15.:11:17.

in order to accommodate the Russians. And in particular on

:11:18.:11:23.

issues like NATO membership. Which frankly I don't think Ukraine will

:11:24.:11:27.

ever be brought into NATO. Because the western countries are not

:11:28.:11:31.

prepared to defend Ukraine. So will Ukraine be willing to provide

:11:32.:11:35.

assurances to Russia that will satisfy Putin and avert further

:11:36.:11:41.

conflict and instability? Thank you both very much indeed. The Prime

:11:42.:11:45.

Minister is showing no sign of throwing his Culture Secretary to

:11:46.:11:49.

the dogs, however loudly they may have barked again over Miller's

:11:50.:11:56.

abuse of public funds and her 32-second apology to the House of

:11:57.:11:59.

Commons. He declared today that what matters is doing the right thing and

:12:00.:12:03.

that he thought she had done so. Other parliamentarians were

:12:04.:12:07.

wondering exactly how she or the committee of MPs who let her off the

:12:08.:12:12.

repayment demanded by the regulators have enhanced the standing of

:12:13.:12:23.

parliament or trust with the voter? If you ever want to know who your

:12:24.:12:26.

friends are, trying tri-going through a parliamentary expenses

:12:27.:12:32.

scandal. Twitter is great place to go if if you want to see how

:12:33.:12:37.

unpopular you are. This weekend the Department of Culture, media and

:12:38.:12:42.

sports account was hacks, this is the result. In a parody of the

:12:43.:12:56.

policy they used a hashtag to comment. It is interesting how

:12:57.:13:00.

loathe how many MPs are to speak out any way. This issue is just as toxic

:13:01.:13:04.

as it was when it first hit the headlines five years ago, that

:13:05.:13:13.

thatted nadire relationship between those who rule and those who vote

:13:14.:13:17.

them in and out. It came down to the PM. This morning he was out and

:13:18.:13:22.

about in a supermarket and with a baby. He was talking about new jobs

:13:23.:13:25.

for 12,000 people. His Culture Secretary, however, was not one of

:13:26.:13:37.

them. Maria McMillan is in Miller is doing an excellent job and that is

:13:38.:13:41.

why she is there. He has said it three times. Even before he came to

:13:42.:13:45.

office David Cameron made it clear he didn't want to chop and change

:13:46.:13:51.

his ministers via raging press. He has stuck to it, fewer reshuffles

:13:52.:13:56.

and sackings, more sustained tenure in the top jobs. The difficulty may

:13:57.:14:00.

not be with the public perception but his own MPs. Some of whom are

:14:01.:14:03.

feeling particularly vulnerable right now. Jackie Doyle Pryce has

:14:04.:14:10.

the most marginal Tory seat in the country, a majority of just 92 and

:14:11.:14:14.

says this is making the fight much harder. Would it make it easier for

:14:15.:14:19.

you if she went? That is a matter for her and the Prime Minister. But

:14:20.:14:23.

I will just make this observation that if I was in that position,

:14:24.:14:27.

facing a difficult set of local election, I wouldn't be expecting my

:14:28.:14:34.

colleagues to defend me. So yes? That's a matter for her. David Law

:14:35.:14:40.

as you might remember went quietly over his expense, Mark Harper

:14:41.:14:43.

resigned almost before the story broke over his illegally employed

:14:44.:14:48.

nanny. It is a no-fuss approach colleagues say reaps its own

:14:49.:14:53.

rewards. But the fury isn't only directed at Maria Miller, but the

:14:54.:14:57.

system that allowed it to happen today. One of the Labour MPs, who

:14:58.:15:02.

sparked the initial investigation, called for policing of MPs. David

:15:03.:15:06.

Cameron says he's open to the thought and others say not

:15:07.:15:09.

necessarily. Ultimately the democratically elected part of

:15:10.:15:13.

Government is the highest form of authority you have. So anything you

:15:14.:15:19.

set up that is independent is set up by that body and can be abolished by

:15:20.:15:23.

the body. Therefore it is more honest for parliament to say we will

:15:24.:15:29.

regulate ourselves than to elect some unaccountable and unelected

:15:30.:15:32.

bureaucrat that they can get rid of any way. I have got hold of the

:15:33.:15:38.

House of Commons document into Maria Miller's expenses, all 110-pages of

:15:39.:15:46.

it, it is impen treble, has details of the first and second home. On

:15:47.:15:50.

page 25 you find the crux of the matter, Code of Conduct, the sense

:15:51.:15:56.

she failed adequately to respond to the commissioner's questions, and

:15:57.:16:01.

she consistently challenged his inquiries. When you talk to MPs on

:16:02.:16:10.

both sides of the House, the agreement is she doesn't get it

:16:11.:16:15.

still. Tonight a ministerial colleague, one

:16:16.:16:18.

arguably after her job, pointedly said she would have done things

:16:19.:16:22.

differently. So will Miss Miller survive? Well she has been seen in

:16:23.:16:26.

neither of her two homes. But timing, as ever, will be crucial.

:16:27.:16:31.

One thing stands in her favour, and that is the Easter parliamentary

:16:32.:16:35.

recess. If she can hang on two more days, she may have earned a

:16:36.:16:38.

political resurrection until the next reshuffle at least. There were

:16:39.:16:46.

intensely moving commemorations in Rwanda today of the genocide that

:16:47.:16:51.

began there exactly 20 years ago. In 100 days of violence more people

:16:52.:16:56.

were killed than Britain lost in the entire First World War. We are going

:16:57.:17:02.

to hear the testimony now of Liliane Umubyey. She was 15 in 1994 when the

:17:03.:17:09.

Hutus began murdering so many of their Tutsi neighbours. She saw

:17:10.:17:14.

almost her entire family killed by a Hutu mob. Understand escaping her

:17:15.:17:20.

caters and moving to Britain in 2000, she has worked with other

:17:21.:17:24.

survivors through the Survivor's Fund. She's currently studying for

:17:25.:17:44.

an MA at Oxford Brookes University. 2000, she has

:17:45.:17:46.

My name is Liliane Umubyey, long before the inside I was 12 years

:17:47.:17:58.

old, we didn't know who was Hutu or Tutsi. Even if the parents gave you

:17:59.:18:02.

a bad eye you wouldn't take much notice because you didn't know why.

:18:03.:18:08.

In 1994 the Hutus picked up the machetes and killed the Tutsis. The

:18:09.:18:15.

sixth April 1994, the Rwandan President is killed when his plane

:18:16.:18:19.

is shot down. With confusion over who is to blame and the Government

:18:20.:18:23.

in disarray, the killing of Tutsis begins. I remember when they came to

:18:24.:18:33.

my uncle's house. Singing very joyful songs that nobody should

:18:34.:18:37.

escape. Rejoicing over what they were going to do. The killing was

:18:38.:18:41.

already spreading in the whole neighbourhood. My parents didn't

:18:42.:18:46.

want to open the door. So as we hear the song, they are approaching the

:18:47.:18:50.

house. As I saw them with all sorts of weapons and I couldn't just

:18:51.:18:56.

believe. That painful death it was so unbearable to my mind. I just

:18:57.:18:59.

jumped through the back window. I tried to run but the whole group was

:19:00.:19:06.

already surrounding the compound. So I climbed the tree that was in the

:19:07.:19:11.

back yard. The 7th of April 1994, as UN peacekeepers stand aside, Rwandan

:19:12.:19:17.

soldiers and Hutu militia hunt for Tutsis, some people are shot, but

:19:18.:19:22.

many more are killed with clubs, sticks and machete, radio broadcasts

:19:23.:19:29.

call for the extermination of Tutsi cockroaches. A minute later all I

:19:30.:19:38.

could hear from the house was... Was the noise of my parents screaming...

:19:39.:19:46.

And it was terrifying but I couldn't do nothing. I couldn't even go down.

:19:47.:19:58.

Once they finished killing everybody they pulled all the bodies outside

:19:59.:20:04.

to double check who escaped and who is not dead yet. In the tree of

:20:05.:20:12.

course I was holding the branch I couldn't cover my ears to hear what

:20:13.:20:16.

was going on. There was lots of, then my family, my uncle's family

:20:17.:20:26.

and, yeah... I remember seeing all of them... The 11th April 1994 tens

:20:27.:20:35.

of thousands of Tutsi and had you sue moderates have been kicked. The

:20:36.:20:39.

civilians they been sheltering are left to the Hutu mobs as the

:20:40.:20:44.

peacekeepers move to the airport. I stayed there for a long, long time.

:20:45.:20:49.

I thought will I stay here for ever, and I didn't have anywhere else to

:20:50.:20:56.

go. When the evening came the dog, the wild dogs just start coming to

:20:57.:21:02.

savage the bodies and I said no way, no chance. This was done by human

:21:03.:21:05.

beings, but you are a dog you cannot do that. This is all I have left for

:21:06.:21:10.

me. And I tried to stone them. As I was stoning them I climbed down. I

:21:11.:21:15.

was running behind the dogs and then I felt I can't go back and then I

:21:16.:21:20.

went and asked shelter from the neighbours. In the following weeks

:21:21.:21:26.

as the UN Security Council wastes its breath deciding whether the

:21:27.:21:32.

massacres can be legally escribed as genocide, the number of deaths

:21:33.:21:35.

increase, tens of thousands become hundreds of thousands. She is called

:21:36.:21:41.

Rosa I asked Rosa could you help me, she was even the one who yelled most

:21:42.:21:45.

to say she's here, and then I tried to run behind the house, I fell in

:21:46.:21:48.

the pit. I couldn't just get up quickly enough before they

:21:49.:21:53.

surrounded the pit and said could you come up. I said I'm not, you

:21:54.:21:58.

kill me here and bury me here, finish your business. One of them

:21:59.:22:03.

jumped in and carried me up. I remember hearing one of them, how

:22:04.:22:10.

can you kill this pretty lady without toasting her to know how

:22:11.:22:16.

good she is. The rape of Tutsi women the rule and absence an exception,

:22:17.:22:22.

says the UN. With the encouragement of Hutu leaders, hundreds of

:22:23.:22:26.

thousands of acts of extreme sexual violence take place. I was like this

:22:27.:22:33.

is not fair. But yet again you were powerless you could not do nothing.

:22:34.:22:42.

One by one they started raping me. And the most memorable face I

:22:43.:22:50.

remember is the first one. When the at this forces seized the capital

:22:51.:22:56.

Kigali in mid-July an estimated 800,000 Rwandans have perished. The

:22:57.:23:04.

genocide is over. I would like to stop telling my story for now until

:23:05.:23:08.

when my daughters who are two and five are reaching to the age when I

:23:09.:23:12.

will be able to explain and tell them exactly what happened to me

:23:13.:23:16.

personally, even if they knew what has happened to the whole country. I

:23:17.:23:22.

will consider that moment as a closure to my suffering for the

:23:23.:23:29.

genocide. Well now my guest is Rwanda's High Commisioner to the UK.

:23:30.:23:32.

He joins us now from Nottingham. With me here in the studio is

:23:33.:23:38.

Newsnight's producer in Rwanda during the genocide, and went on to

:23:39.:23:43.

make the film Shooting Dogs, and has just written a memoir about the

:23:44.:23:50.

experience, When The Hills Ask For Your Blood. How easy is it to forget

:23:51.:23:57.

whether you are a Hutu or Tutsi? It is actually very easy. As we are

:23:58.:24:02.

growing up we are never socialising as hut at thises Tutsis and had you

:24:03.:24:15.

at thises. The install gaze of Hutu or Tutsi concept was engineered by

:24:16.:24:21.

colonial forces. But what we have discovered over the last 20 years,

:24:22.:24:26.

since the terrible strategy of 1994 when during the genocide against the

:24:27.:24:32.

Tutsis, one million people were butchered in 100 days. We have come

:24:33.:24:36.

to learn that there is no premium, there is no benefit in

:24:37.:24:41.

everdramatising and ro Manchester United size -- overdrama sizing or

:24:42.:24:53.

romanticising the issue. We have been stronger and able to do much

:24:54.:25:01.

more when we work as one rather than Hutu or Tutsi. You were in and out

:25:02.:25:06.

of Rwanda all the time, how was it to you? I think his excellency is

:25:07.:25:11.

not quite right about whether Rwandans feel Hutu or Tutsi or not.

:25:12.:25:15.

They feel very strongly their heritage, their land, their blood,

:25:16.:25:29.

their Lennage. -- lineage. They are families with what we heard there,

:25:30.:25:35.

she can't wait to tell her family her history, people have oral

:25:36.:25:39.

histories. One has to be very careful in imagining you can simply

:25:40.:25:44.

reboot people into a different identity and saying we are all

:25:45.:25:50.

Rwandans. Desnot rebooting, I speak as a Rwandan, I have children, I

:25:51.:25:56.

have relatives like myself. I have never taught my children they are

:25:57.:26:02.

Hutu or Tutsi. So I think I'm in a much more comfortable space to

:26:03.:26:07.

articulate what Rwandans want to view themselves as. Right now as we

:26:08.:26:12.

speak, and we commemorate the 1994 genocide against the Tutsis, the

:26:13.:26:16.

overriding conversation in Rwanda is not whether one is Hutu or Tutsi, it

:26:17.:26:21.

is what it is that we must, you know, use it to redesign ourselves.

:26:22.:26:29.

But a new values system can we put in place that helps us to view

:26:30.:26:34.

ourselves as one rather than focus on the things that divide us. That

:26:35.:26:44.

is a very pious ambition. That is a conversation that is going on in the

:26:45.:26:49.

country right now as we speak, we are focussing on that. What are you,

:26:50.:27:00.

are you a Hutu or Tutsi? What do you think? I have no idea, that is why

:27:01.:27:04.

I'm asking you? That's the point, why are you trying to make me

:27:05.:27:09.

redesign myself by something I detest, because it allowed madness

:27:10.:27:13.

to grip our country. Because we are talking on the anniversary of a

:27:14.:27:17.

genocide, that's why? And as we talk about the anniversary of the

:27:18.:27:22.

genocide, the conversation that the people of Rwanda are having right

:27:23.:27:26.

now is not about Hutu or Tutsi, but about what it is we must see as our

:27:27.:27:32.

system that unites us. And that particular conversation in Rwanda is

:27:33.:27:41.

called not I am Hutu or Tutsi. It is interesting what the ambassador says

:27:42.:27:44.

about a shared values system. That's the big question that Rwanda faces

:27:45.:27:50.

really. Whose values are they and does everybody share them together?

:27:51.:27:55.

And I think there is a real sense of national purpose and his excellency

:27:56.:28:00.

is right, people really believe in trying to move Rwanda forward and we

:28:01.:28:04.

have seen tremendous progress. The risk is in asking everybody to

:28:05.:28:08.

participate in this shared system of values, you forget who you are. Of

:28:09.:28:14.

course I defer to his excellency, he's Rwandan and I'm not. I have sat

:28:15.:28:18.

with Rwandans, I have been walking around the hills and talked with

:28:19.:28:22.

them for many, many years, what you find is people will tell you their

:28:23.:28:26.

stories when they feel comfortable. When they don't feel threatened by

:28:27.:28:31.

what the Government is saying or indeed what the people around the

:28:32.:28:35.

village corner are saying. It was interesting I thought at the

:28:36.:28:38.

commemoration today the number of senior figures, both from Rwanda and

:28:39.:28:43.

in fact the President from Uganda made the same point. A lot of the

:28:44.:28:48.

blame for this lies with colonial powers. Is that a widespread

:28:49.:28:52.

perception? It is a perception that has been, I think the blame is being

:28:53.:28:57.

shared, I think today we saw politics being played by President

:28:58.:29:03.

Kigami, to make it clear where Rwanda stands as opposed to the old

:29:04.:29:07.

colonial powers. If you go to the schools in Rwanda you get a clear

:29:08.:29:11.

sense of where blame is attached. It is attached partly to the colonial

:29:12.:29:18.

powers that identified the different cultural groups Hutu or Tutsi and

:29:19.:29:21.

gave them identity cards. But it is also the bad Government in 1994.

:29:22.:29:26.

People are taught very specifically that story. The narrative is of the

:29:27.:29:29.

Government. It is not necessarily whether their fathers or mothers

:29:30.:29:33.

were active participants or passive participants. Thank you very much.

:29:34.:29:40.

Tragedy struck the Geldof family today, Peaches Geldof, whose mother

:29:41.:29:50.

Paula Yates died of a drug overdose, she was found dead at 25. She was

:29:51.:29:55.

rarely out of the tabloid press and leaves behind two young children. A

:29:56.:30:01.

life lived in front of the flash bulbs, a daughter of celebrity, then

:30:02.:30:07.

a celebrity herself. Peaches Geldof was one of the children of the

:30:08.:30:14.

ill-fated match of bob Geldof and Paula Yates, her mother died of an

:30:15.:30:18.

overdose when she was just 11 years old. But from her teens Peaches

:30:19.:30:26.

Geldof chose to follow their fame. A writer, presenter, regular fixture

:30:27.:30:35.

on fashion front rows. Formerly a member of London's party scene and

:30:36.:30:39.

now talking about parenting on TV. This is a prime example of someone

:30:40.:30:45.

who did not grow up with attachment parenting, someone who goes on the

:30:46.:30:49.

media to slag off other women. The 25-year-old was found dead at her

:30:50.:30:53.

home in Kent this afternoon. Her father said the family was beyond

:30:54.:30:57.

pain. But in a life of public moments, Peaches Geldof's last

:30:58.:31:02.

message was to share a picture of herself with her mother. She said

:31:03.:31:06.

she had been unable to grieve her properly till 16. But her two young

:31:07.:31:11.

sons and husband will now have to live their lives with loss. With us

:31:12.:31:20.

now is the Guardian columnist Hadley Freeman. Everybody seemed immensely

:31:21.:31:23.

shocked today, why do you think that was? There is several layers of

:31:24.:31:27.

sadness to the story. Obviously first she was very young, nobody

:31:28.:31:31.

should die at 25. She had two very young children, no-one and

:31:32.:31:33.

two-year-old should lose their mother. A lot of us remember her

:31:34.:31:38.

being born, we see her grow up, I'm old enough to remember her as the

:31:39.:31:44.

daughter of bob Geldof and Paula Yates, we know her father is still

:31:45.:31:49.

alive and we know how sad he feels. It was such a surprise. She was a

:31:50.:31:52.

wild child, she was that cliche in her teenage years, she talked about

:31:53.:31:56.

experimenting with drugs, for a long time it looked like she might be

:31:57.:32:01.

going the same way as Herrera, her mother died of a drug overdose and

:32:02.:32:05.

she talked about her struggles. But she gets married and has two boys,

:32:06.:32:09.

seen on TV talking about parenting, very much involved with her children

:32:10.:32:11.

and seeming very happy. For something to then go wrong was a big

:32:12.:32:15.

shock to a lot of people. It did seem, I wouldn't claim any

:32:16.:32:18.

specialist knowledge of course, but from a distant awareness, she did

:32:19.:32:24.

seem to have changed her life, didn't she? When I had a book launch

:32:25.:32:30.

in 2008 when she was going through the period. She crashed my book

:32:31.:32:37.

lunch launch to my and my friends' surprise, she was the chaotic mess

:32:38.:32:41.

she was portrayed. She was seen as another Amy Winehouse and Pete

:32:42.:32:46.

Doherty in the tabloids. Then I saw her recently at fashion show, she

:32:47.:32:50.

was healthy, she was happy with one of her children. It was a big

:32:51.:32:54.

surprise for it to happen now. Tells us something about ourselves that

:32:55.:32:58.

people were so shocked and saddened by this. Because everybody knew her

:32:59.:33:03.

personal story and it actually speaks rather well I think doesn't

:33:04.:33:07.

it of social sympathy? And also I think people like to have these

:33:08.:33:11.

narratives and certainly the tabloids had written narrative for

:33:12.:33:17.

her. For a while she would be Paula Yates part two, and then she was a

:33:18.:33:21.

success story, the happy story for bob Geldof, he lost his former wife

:33:22.:33:25.

but the child was doing well. This has happened now. We have known bob

:33:26.:33:30.

Geldof for so long in the public eye for 30 years, to see someone you

:33:31.:33:34.

know well as a celebrity lose their child is terribly sad.

:33:35.:33:41.

Thank you very much. Media outlets around the world's, and Dark Matter

:33:42.:33:47.

is one of the Holy Grails of atrophysics. For decades scientists

:33:48.:33:50.

have been trying to work out what it is or whether it exists. Here is the

:33:51.:33:55.

BBC's simplified explanation of it. A type of matter hypothesised in

:33:56.:34:01.

cosmology to account for effects that appear to be the result of mass

:34:02.:34:05.

where no such mass can be seen. Clear you have eh! Rebecca Morelle

:34:06.:34:10.

will lighten our darkness with a report from South Dakota where

:34:11.:34:13.

scientists are hoping to be the first to provide proof of its

:34:14.:34:37.

existence. Mount Rushmore, gazing over the black hills of South

:34:38.:34:42.

Dakota. It was about the same time the heads were being carved into the

:34:43.:34:46.

rock in the 1930s that elsewhere scientists began to notice there was

:34:47.:34:49.

something very strange about the universe. A huge chunk of it

:34:50.:34:54.

appeared to be missing. It is a mystery that has baffled scientists

:34:55.:34:58.

for decades. But now an answer might lie just around the corner from

:34:59.:35:01.

here, it is not far away in the black hills a bold new experiment is

:35:02.:35:09.

about to get under way. The Home Stake Gold Mine. It is here

:35:10.:35:12.

where scientists have the best chance yet of finding Dark Matter. A

:35:13.:35:19.

mysterious substance born in the big bang, it could make up more than a

:35:20.:35:34.

quarter of the universe. South gates going to the 48-50. Nobody knows

:35:35.:35:40.

what form Dark Matter takes or even if it really exists. This cage

:35:41.:35:46.

descent was once the daily commute for gold miners, now it is

:35:47.:35:49.

scientists that make the journey one mile down to one of the deepest

:35:50.:35:53.

laboratories in the world. It takes about ten minutes to get to level

:35:54.:36:01.

4850, ample time to swat up on a bit of particle physics.

:36:02.:36:18.

Galaxies like our own consist of planets and stars and dust. All

:36:19.:36:25.

rotating around a dense centre. The thing is, all this regular matter

:36:26.:36:30.

simply doesn't have enough mass to account for the gravity needed to

:36:31.:36:34.

hold the galaxy together. The whole thing should fly apart. There must

:36:35.:36:39.

be something else there, something we can't see. And scientists believe

:36:40.:36:47.

that's Dark Matter. And it is this that creates the mass and the

:36:48.:36:52.

gravity needed to bind the galaxy together. The thinking is that Dark

:36:53.:37:06.

Matter played a vital part in the evolution of the universe. Its

:37:07.:37:13.

existence is even more compelling if we consider its influence on a

:37:14.:37:17.

grander scale. This is a computer projection mapping in blue where

:37:18.:37:21.

scientists think it is at its densist, and across its web of

:37:22.:37:28.

clumps and tangles galaxies merge and cluster, it is the scaffold on

:37:29.:37:36.

which our Cosmos is hung. Nobody actually knows what Dark

:37:37.:37:40.

Matter looks like. But imagine I could use this lens to take a look

:37:41.:37:45.

at these mysterious particles. Scientists think they are

:37:46.:37:47.

everywhere, hanging in space, but because the earth is constantly in

:37:48.:37:52.

motion, it would look like they are streaming through us, trillions upon

:37:53.:37:56.

trillion, passing through us every second, like ghosts. This

:37:57.:38:02.

phantom-like quality is what makes them so hard to detect. But, there

:38:03.:38:09.

is a theory that Dark Matter part icles do sometimes pump into regular

:38:10.:38:14.

matter. That is why we are going deep underground to the laboratory

:38:15.:38:18.

where they hope to catch these extremely rare encounters in the

:38:19.:38:24.

act. This subterranean lab is shielded from naturally occurring

:38:25.:38:28.

radiation found up on the surface. Giving the experiments the cosmic

:38:29.:38:33.

quiet it needs for its detection work. And this is what it is all

:38:34.:38:41.

about, one mile underground a tank spanning two storeys, it contains

:38:42.:38:47.

nearly 100,000 gallons of ultra purified water and suspended at its

:38:48.:38:52.

heart is the more sensitive Dark Matter detector ever built. The

:38:53.:38:59.

detector contains 800 pounds of the chemical element Xenon, although

:39:00.:39:06.

most particles will pass through, in the hope that a particle bumps into

:39:07.:39:14.

a Xenon particle it will give a bit of light that sensors will record.

:39:15.:39:21.

Rick is one of the people behind the work going on in this lab cave. His

:39:22.:39:27.

quest to prove Dark Matter exists is decades long. We all thought we were

:39:28.:39:32.

going to solve it in the first five years of looking, we are just on the

:39:33.:39:37.

threshold of starting a new search with the Lux Detector that will last

:39:38.:39:43.

for 300 days. We are configuring the detector to look for the extremely

:39:44.:39:46.

occasional reaction, one every month or few months. If we can get an

:39:47.:39:51.

answer to what Dark Matter is, not only will we have explained what the

:39:52.:39:56.

majority of the matter in the universe is made of, but we will

:39:57.:40:02.

also really usher in a new era in our understanding of the fundamental

:40:03.:40:07.

physics of this universe. Finding Dark Matter will put the laboratory

:40:08.:40:12.

on the map. But they are conscious they are not the only team looking.

:40:13.:40:16.

There are a handful of experiments located at different underground

:40:17.:40:19.

laboratories around the world that they want to be the first ones to

:40:20.:40:22.

stand up and say they have discovered it. And so it is very

:40:23.:40:27.

competitive and they track what each other is at and results that come

:40:28.:40:30.

out. It is really an interesting process to see these guys and ladies

:40:31.:40:33.

competing to try to be the first. Back up at the surface and just

:40:34.:40:46.

round the corner from the gold mine is the old gambling town of

:40:47.:40:50.

Deadwood, now it is scientists hoping to strike it lucky here.

:40:51.:40:54.

Whoever is fortunate enough to be able to discover Dark Matter first,

:40:55.:40:58.

it will be a Nobel Prize winning result. But entire careers are being

:40:59.:41:04.

staked on a particle that might not even be there. You know we have to

:41:05.:41:09.

allow for the idea that the experiment may produce a negative

:41:10.:41:15.

result, the standard repost under those circumstances is to build a

:41:16.:41:18.

bigger one. Here in South Dakota, an audacious

:41:19.:41:27.

gamble can sometimes pay off. If you are looking for a working example of

:41:28.:41:32.

a complete shamble, you could do worse than gawp in disbelief at

:41:33.:41:35.

yesterday's Sheffield half marathon. It was cancelled with minutes to go

:41:36.:41:40.

because there apparently wasn't enough water for the runners. Plenty

:41:41.:41:44.

of them didn't get the message and thousands completed the course any

:41:45.:41:49.

way. Nick Clegg a local MP called the situation "farcical" and he

:41:50.:41:54.

knows a thing or two about farces. What about this, water. We have one

:41:55.:42:05.

of the presenters of Trust Me I'm a Doctor, how much water do we need?

:42:06.:42:09.

That is why I put the water on the table, it varies a huge amount. This

:42:10.:42:13.

is the most water I have ever drunk in day, this is probably the least,

:42:14.:42:17.

in fact I may have drunk less than that today. For one individual it

:42:18.:42:21.

can vary that much. That was a hot day doing hard exercise in a

:42:22.:42:24.

difficult climate. If you are working in a cold office it will be

:42:25.:42:27.

very little. If you add to that medical conditions, age, immensely.

:42:28.:42:32.

So there is no minimum? There is a minimum, without water for more than

:42:33.:42:36.

a few days we will all die. A few days? But you can get by, if you

:42:37.:42:40.

work in a cold environment, you are not doing any exercise and you start

:42:41.:42:45.

the die hide demonstrated, you -- day hide demonstrated and you want

:42:46.:42:55.

immediate need a lot of water. Drinking water if you feel a bit

:42:56.:42:59.

hungover or like you need cleansing, there is a lovely idea of putting

:43:00.:43:03.

something clear in your body that gets rid of waste. To that idea we

:43:04.:43:08.

add a layer of clever marketing and slightly misrepresented science from

:43:09.:43:13.

companies with enormous vested interests in selling large

:43:14.:43:17.

quantities of bottled water. If you delve into the research the eight

:43:18.:43:21.

glasses a day is nowhere to be found really. The best evidence says you

:43:22.:43:26.

should drink to thirst. If you go on one of these websites that advises

:43:27.:43:29.

you about how much you have to drink it will tell you large quantities

:43:30.:43:33.

really? This is the perils of certain websites on the Internet. If

:43:34.:43:41.

you go to the BBC website where I have written an article of what you

:43:42.:43:45.

need to drink. Drinking to thirst that gets you enough water. You

:43:46.:43:48.

should drink when you are thirsty. If you feel like a glass of water

:43:49.:43:53.

have one. That is true if you are an Olympic athlete or if you are

:43:54.:43:57.

someone sitting in an office. If you do drink too much what is the

:43:58.:44:00.

problem, you just Pete it out don't you? No, brinking too much water is

:44:01.:44:06.

very dangerous. The marathon in question probably more people die at

:44:07.:44:11.

the end of marathons from drinking too much water without anything in

:44:12.:44:17.

it than people who die from dehydration. Why? Because having a

:44:18.:44:24.

lot of water die lutes your body you and get brain swelling. When you

:44:25.:44:30.

sweat you lose salt. For each bottle of water like that, if it was sweat

:44:31.:44:34.

that is about how much salt you would have in it, and you have to

:44:35.:44:37.

replace the salt. If you put the salt in the water it would be

:44:38.:44:41.

unpalatable, and most of the over the counter electrolithe drinks

:44:42.:44:49.

don't have enough salt in them. It is important for runners to

:44:50.:44:53.

rehydrate carefully. If you drink too much the salt gets washed out of

:44:54.:44:57.

your body? Essentially, you end up drowning. If I drank all that water

:44:58.:45:03.

today it would be dangerous. So the emphasis from overhydration has now

:45:04.:45:09.

shifted to make sure we hit the sweet spot. Like everything, fat,

:45:10.:45:13.

sugar, vitamins, too much is very bad, too little is very bad for you,

:45:14.:45:17.

exactly what our grandmothers would say. This other one here? This is

:45:18.:45:25.

sugar. It is salt? Maybe it is a mixture? We may have confused

:45:26.:45:30.

things. It is horrible? To make it absorbable rapidly we usually add a

:45:31.:45:35.

bit more sugar. Sugar and salt in that proportion would be a good

:45:36.:45:42.

rehydration mix, diluted fruit juice with salt in it would be great for

:45:43.:45:48.

runners. If we rank too much water it would be good to get the sugar

:45:49.:45:53.

out of you? We are eating too much sugar drinking water would be good

:45:54.:46:02.

for us. You don't excrete sugar in your urine only happens when you

:46:03.:46:06.

have a problem. It is not very useful this water lark? It is

:46:07.:46:10.

important not to try to overthink it I guess. Drink when you are thirsty

:46:11.:46:15.

is the headline. Thank you very much, thank you. Both? Probably

:46:16.:46:19.

affected by too much water. Tomorrow morning's front pages now the Prime

:46:20.:46:25.

Minister is at war with his party over Maria Miller. They are also in

:46:26.:46:30.

the Telegraph Tory MPs calling for her to be sacked. I don't know why

:46:31.:46:34.

we are not looking at the pictures of the front pages, we apparently

:46:35.:46:40.

don't have T as all viewers are aware the cult HBO series Game of

:46:41.:46:47.

Thrones eagerly awaited fourth series arrived last night. It is

:46:48.:46:51.

best known as marital aid for fans of Dungeons and Dragons everywhere.

:46:52.:46:54.

Should you feel slightly underinformed about series 1-3, here

:46:55.:46:58.

is the potted character guide, kindly provided by the Screen

:46:59.:47:04.

Junkies YouTube Channel. Good night. Meet unforgettable hero, John Snow,

:47:05.:47:09.

a Moby bustard who doesn't know anything. You know nothing. And

:47:10.:47:17.

Ardarian, a super-hot Queen obsessed with her dragons. Right on an

:47:18.:47:23.

adventure where any lead character can die, whether you are Sean

:47:24.:47:29.

SKACHLT bean's wife, son, best friend, daughter-in-law, his family

:47:30.:47:35.

dogs, his unborn grand kid, all men must die who are in any way close to

:47:36.:47:39.

Sean Bean.

:47:40.:47:40.

New Russian revolts in Ukraine. Maria Miller. Twenty years since Rwanda. The death of Peaches Geldof. Will scientists find dark matter? With Jeremy Paxman.


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