06/05/2014 Newsnight


06/05/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Sticking their noses in, the Business Secretary threatens to

:00:00.:00:10.

change the law so he could stop a megamerger. But why shouldn't

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American drug giant Pfizer gobble up AstraZeneca if that's what the

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market want. On the eve of the elections in South Africa, has the

:00:22.:00:26.

Pistorius trial shown there is one rule for white and one for black. If

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I shot my girlfriend I would be in jail right now, with all my money

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and everything I would still be in jail. First degree murder, only

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person I know who has got bail. The tape is broken and so the record

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athletes have been long dreaming about. It is six decades since Roger

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Bannister ran into the record books, he tells us how he did it. He

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arrived alone, no masseur, no coach, no manager, he's either nuts or he's

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good! Vince Cable delighted his party once by warning capitalism can

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kill, he meant kill off competition, where big businesses simply become

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too big and squeeze their rivals out of business. Today he suggested he

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might even change the law to use a so called public interest test,

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potentially to block American drug giant Pfizer from grabbing the

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British pharmaceutical girl, AstraZeneca. The Business Secretary

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claims the Government is neutral on the deal. And back room talks with

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the fills continue. How much should the Government really interfere with

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private sector deals. For a purely commercial matter, Pfizer's pursuit

:01:53.:01:57.

of AstraZeneca looks decidedly political. The Prime Minister,

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Chancellor and Business Secretary all discussed the takeover with the

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US predator, but not with its prey. To sweeten the pill, Pfizer said its

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headquarters would move to the UK, but critics say it is takeover

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driven not by scientific logic but tax. If we look back at what has

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happened to Warner Lambert, to Pharmacia and Wyatt Laboratories,

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early acquisitions made by Pfizer, we will see that research and

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development has been significantly reduced and over 50,000 jobs have

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been lost. Norths, Pfizer have been acting in my language like a preying

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mantis. They have been sucking the life blood out of those three units

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in order to sustain themselves. Today Vince Cable insisted he

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wouldn't let the UK be used as a tax haven. The Government has only

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limited powers to block takeovers on grounds of public interest, in

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media, banking and defence industries, but if binding

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assurances on research and jobs weren't given, he said, those powers

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could be expanded. We are very alive to the national interest

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considerations here. We see the future of the UK as a knowledge

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economy, not a tax haven. And our focus is on what is best for the UK,

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securing Great British science, research and manufacturing jobs and

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decision making in the life sciences sector. Pfizer's critics have

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pointed to swinging job cuts in Kent where Viagra was discovered. But

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they have closed down facilities, AstraZeneca, cutting hundreds of

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jobs. Does it make sense to talk of a national champion. If you look at

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it emotionally, yes, if you look at it scientifically, no, not really.

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Certainly if you want to look at it presidentically, not at all. If you

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are a patient what you want is good medicine, I'm not sure if you care

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if they come from Roche, GSK or Pfizer. The pharmaceutical industry

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is a high-takes game, one blockbuster, Viagra, can make up for

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billions not going anywhere, but only until the patent runs out. What

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counts for a drug company isn't so much saving tax or cost, it is

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having enough research capacity to find the next blockbuster. What led

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drug firms to prosper in the UK in the first place was not taxes or

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takeover restrictions, but the presence of one of the most

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important customers in the world, the NHS, what happens most to

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sciences isn't nationality, but the financial support they need to

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create drugs that win the big battle, not with an industrial preto

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but with disease. Here with us is the Shadow Business Secretary, thank

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you for coming in. On a point of principle, would it be better in

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your view, if your British companies were taken over and owned by foreign

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companies? I think this issue of foreign ownership is a bit of a red

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herring, it is not a question of whether it is foreign or not, it is

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a question of whether it is good for the British economy, good for a

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world-beating sector, like the pharmaceutical sector, good for the

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country. There have been good foreign takeovers, one thinks of

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Tata's takeover, Nissan, BMW-Mini- et cetera, the bad ones, the

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takeover by Hewlett Packard. It is not autonomy, it is whether it

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represents a long-term investment in our industrial base. On that

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particular point, because many people do believe in fact it matters

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whether or not the company is owned, you as a potential Business

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Secretary have no view on whether or not more or fewer companies should

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be British-owned and kept in the country? My preference would be I

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would much rather British firms taking over foreign ones and

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autonomy taking over the likes of Hewlett Packard. Ultimately I'm

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interested in what will this do for our science base, and is this inward

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investment, which we are open to and must welcome, will it create more of

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the high-skilled jobs we want to see here in Britain. That is the key

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issue here. What would you do, if you were Vince Cable tonight, he's

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suggested the possibility of applying a public interest test,

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that doesn't right now fit for drug companies. Although it does for

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others, it exists for defence and media companies, what else would you

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put on the list? First of all we would be clear that you need to have

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Government operating in a neutral fashion, looking at this objectively

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and seeing if it is good for the UK science base. Science for innovation

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is important. It is through innovating we can win the global

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race to the top. We are not going to compete with people on driving down

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people's terms and conditions, it is by innovation, the Business

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Secretary has said today that all options are on the table. What would

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you do? We would establish an independent body of people, the FT's

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editorial tomorrow has come out in favour of this idea. You would have

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another quango? No, how you constitute that as something we are

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looking at in the context of our policy review. You would have an

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independent group of people made up of industry and experts, who would

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advise Government on whether this was a good or bad thing or the US

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science and industrial base for the country. The Business Secretary has

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indicated he's ameanable to this. In order to add that UK science and R

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as a category under which you could have an intervention on public

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interest grounds, you need to introduce the statutory instrument.

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I'm saying this evening, we would be prepared to work with him to change

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the public interest test to include this particular category. So you

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would put drug companies on the list for a public interest test, whether

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you want to set up your own other quango is something else. You would

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put the pharmaceuticals sector on to that list. What wouldn't you put on

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the list? There is four categories under which Government can intervene

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at the moment, national security, competition, media peculiarity, and

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financial stability. That actually, some of those could affect all

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different companies. Would you add anything to that list? The list we

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are saying that the category we would add to that list would be

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science and R You would add science and research and development

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specifically to that list? That is what we are proposing. The Business

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Secretary seems to be indicating in the House of Commons he's

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considering all options and that would be one. We would be happy to

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work with him. The important thing is you have an independent

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assessment of what this means to the UK science base. The problem is

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people look at the form of Pfizer, and how they have a history of

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taking over companies, intellectually asset stripping them.

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British companies do that too, you said before it is not about whether

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or not it is a foreign company coming in, are you suggesting now it

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is? The public interest test applies regardless of whether it is a

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foreign takeover or not. That applies to all companies. Like I

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said this issue of whether it is foreign is a bit of a red herring.

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But you are sitting here tonight, potentially in a year or so you

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might be Business Secretary, you are suggesting perhaps another sort of

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quango and independent body set up just to look at this science deal,

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you are suggesting potentially adding science to the list of

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protected industries, it is all a bit confusing is it not, businesses

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looking at this position? You are calling it protec tectied

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industries, it is a category under which you gauge public interest. Can

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I make another point. What is clearly happening here, we have had

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AstraZeneca for the third time reject Pfizer's advances. One thing

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that is very worrying is if this deal potentially goes hostile, where

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the Pfizer board seeks to go over the British board here and appeals.

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That is up to them? But Laura that is... They are -- you are being

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unclear whether or not you would add other sectors to the list? I have

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been very clear. There are four existing categories and we would add

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another one. Any others? That is a category, that is the only one.

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Would you add any other sectors to that, because business will want to

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know? I will be very clear with business there are no sectors we are

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adding to the public interest category of four, a fifth that would

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be R and science and that is supported in the FT I'm pleased to

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say. Any other sectors you might consider adding to the list and any

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sectors that you will never intervene? I won't go through the

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list there are none others at the moment, that's it. Thank you. We

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have our other guest a former Conservative MP with us. The

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chairman of AstraZeneca appears worried that the Prime Minister is

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pushing the deal, where as the Government says it is neutral, is

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the chairman wrong? I think he's oversensitive on the point. I'm sure

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the Government is neutral on this. The Business Secretary stated many

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times that the Government are neutral, they are in touch with both

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AstraZeneca and Pfizer boards. There is a case for both camps. Are you

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saying he's being a bit oversensitive and touchy? Yes, I

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don't see that he has evidence that the Prime Minister is on the side of

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one company or another on all of this. I think it is important that

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the Government does stay neutral, there hasn't even been a formal bid

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that has been accepted yet. And it is way too premature to be taking

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one side or another, for one key point which is we don't know yet on

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what the board of AstraZeneca is basing its rejections. But the

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Government have clearly taken a side, have they not, or was the

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Treasury a bit too keen to come out and say marvellous the company will

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take advantage of our new tax regime? It is two separate things. I

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think this Government has made the UK economy a lot more competitive,

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particularly manufacturing and science-based industries, we are now

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a very competitive country in worldwide terms. That is a good

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thing. Is it giving the game away appearing to support the deal, when

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the Treasury let it be known that it was very pleased that Pfizer were

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citing the changes in tax arrangements as a reason to come to

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the UK? That is a separate matter to taking the side of Pfizer in any

:12:10.:12:14.

negotiations with AstraZeneca. It would be premature to do that. What

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about this idea of having a test, adding the pharmaceutical sector to

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tests in terms of the public interest, would you support that?

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Vince Cable didn't rule that out today. He dropped a heavy hint he

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would like to see it happen? I was sitting behind him, he just didn't

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rule it out. He said it would be a very serious step, not one that he

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would rule out, personally I hope that he doesn't go down that path.

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Why not? Because there are other people in your party, like the

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former Deputy Prime Minister, Michael Heseltine, who believe

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explicitly we are the only developed economy that doesn't have a test

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like this in the same way, and we ought to have this kind of

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mechanism? We do have a test in certain areas, and I think we have

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great strength in this economy, we have an open economy, we are

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delighted when companies like Rolls-Royce, GlaxoSmithKline, BG, go

:13:10.:13:15.

out and invest in other parts of the world and increase their global

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revenues, which in turn benefit the UK. We can't have it both ways, we

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can't be encouraging companies on the one hand to go out and

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globalise, but then put the barriers up when companies want to do the

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same thing in the UK. We have to leave it there, thank you very much

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indeed to you both for coming in. What does the country see in the

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mirror? Staring back right now is a population where eight million of us

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are not white, 14% of the population, but by 2050 that might

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have doubled. So says the think-tank Policy Exchange. And where

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populations shift, votes can shift too. So smart politicians and policy

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makers would do well to pay attention. But have they really

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cottoned on? Have you noticed something recently? Whether it is

:14:04.:14:07.

the Prime Minister visiting a part of the Punjab from where hundreds of

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thousands of British voters can trace their routes roots, or the

:14:12.:14:15.

Chancellor's reforms to flight taxes. It creates a great sense of

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injustice amongst our Caribbean and south Asian communities. Or the Home

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Secretary's announcement that police forces must cut back on their use of

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stop and search? I have told the House before I have long been

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learned about stop and search. The Conservatives are making direct

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appeals from voters from ethnic minority backgrounds. A report out

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today helps explain why, how the face of Britain is changing. Policy

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Exchange says by to 50 up to a third of the UK will be nonwhite. In

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Croydon today the black and ethnic minority communities make up half

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the population. The Conservatives won central Croydon from Labour in

:14:55.:14:58.

2010, with a year and day to go before the next election, it is a

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seat where black and Asian voters could decide the outcome next time

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round. Any politician standing in a place like Croydon probably already

:15:07.:15:11.

knows the importance of appealing to voters from ethnic minorities, but

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how do you do it? Anything that smells of cynical electioneering,

:15:16.:15:19.

will leave people feeling used and put them off voting for you. Then

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again does it make sense to talk about the BME vote as one block,

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when there is so much diversity within it. I think absolutely not

:15:28.:15:31.

treating them as a block is the right way forward. Pick housing, the

:15:32.:15:36.

Indian community overwhelmingly own their own homes, you contrast to the

:15:37.:15:40.

black African communities where homeownership is low, policies

:15:41.:15:44.

around stamp duty or help to buy, "Mansion Tax"s and interest rates

:15:45.:15:48.

will be of particular concern to the Indian community and a way for

:15:49.:15:51.

politicians to engage with them. Are the political classes ready for a

:15:52.:15:54.

doubling of the nonwhite population by 2050. This campaigner wants

:15:55.:15:58.

Croydon's minorities more engaged in politics. He knows what would help.

:15:59.:16:02.

When people look at the political parties, and they don't actually see

:16:03.:16:06.

themselves within those political parties, they don't feel part of

:16:07.:16:11.

those political democratic process, they don't feel that their views are

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actually going to be represented at those tables. Just look at all those

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white faces, it is hardly surprising that black and minority ethnic

:16:20.:16:24.

voters can feel alienated from politics. 27 MPs, 4. 2% of the

:16:25.:16:30.

Commons come from ethnic minority backgrounds. If parliament reflected

:16:31.:16:34.

the population accurately, there would be 117. The BME electorate

:16:35.:16:39.

tends to vote Labour. At the last general election 68% did, 16% voted

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Conservative and 14% Lib Dem. How worried are people within the

:16:45.:16:49.

Conservative Party? Long-term it is an existential threat to the

:16:50.:16:52.

Conservative Party. We can see the way the demography of the country is

:16:53.:16:56.

changing, there is a self-interest there, and it is also a matter of

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principle, making sure we are a party that, every weekend I go out

:17:01.:17:05.

and meet people whose values are Conservatives but don't vote for the

:17:06.:17:07.

Conservative Party because they don't feel it is for them. That is

:17:08.:17:10.

the fundamental perception we need to change. The Mayor of London has

:17:11.:17:16.

cottoned on faster than many. Reaching out to the black church

:17:17.:17:20.

community, and was special guest in front of 40,000 black Christians a

:17:21.:17:25.

month before the elections. Here in the UK the black church could be as

:17:26.:17:30.

significant as it is in the United States, and getting Barack Obama

:17:31.:17:34.

elected for a second term. It is huge there, and it is beginning to

:17:35.:17:38.

become politically huge here, what the Pastors are now saying, yes it

:17:39.:17:42.

is good to pray, but it is equally good to vote. Operation Black Vote

:17:43.:17:49.

says in 168 marginal seats like Croydon central, the ethnic vote is

:17:50.:17:54.

bigger than the sitting MP's majority. With us now are Ken

:17:55.:18:03.

Livingston, the former Mayor of London and the Conservative whip and

:18:04.:18:08.

former parliamentary Private Secretary to the Prime Minister. Ken

:18:09.:18:13.

Livingston, firstly to you, running London where the demographics are

:18:14.:18:16.

racing ahead in much of the country, do you have to be a different kind

:18:17.:18:19.

of politician to do it? I don't think you do actually. I

:18:20.:18:31.

I remember Sadique Khan to say close my eyes, and people come to Britain

:18:32.:18:40.

to be part of it not to change it. The defining thing is not your

:18:41.:18:43.

colour or religion it is your level of income. David Cameron has just

:18:44.:18:48.

appointed the first British person of Pakistani origin, when I look at

:18:49.:18:57.

him I don't see that, I see a banker making money every year. People vote

:18:58.:19:02.

according to their income. If you look, it might be a generation

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before people catch up. If I think back. If we were talking 50 years

:19:06.:19:10.

ago, the Roman Catholic community, the Irish community, the Jewish

:19:11.:19:15.

community in Britain solidly Labour, still the Irish Catholic community

:19:16.:19:18.

are still Labour, because it is still not terribly rich. As the

:19:19.:19:22.

Jewish community got richer they moved to vote for Margaret Thatcher

:19:23.:19:25.

in Finchley. Aren't politicians missing a trick. There is a big

:19:26.:19:32.

demographic change, Policy Exchanging suggested by 2050 nearly

:19:33.:19:37.

a third of voters from nonwhite backgrounds, is it carry on as you

:19:38.:19:41.

are? The report is a fascinating insight into what Britain looks like

:19:42.:19:46.

today, it projects what Britain will look like in 2050. On that I think

:19:47.:19:51.

it is slightly patronising to suggest that some how people's

:19:52.:19:55.

voting attitudes now will persist into 2050, we don't say that about

:19:56.:20:01.

any groups in society, why say it about BME groups is what I will say.

:20:02.:20:09.

It is not all that, I disagree with Ken about level of income. People

:20:10.:20:12.

vote according to their values, with was said in the package, and what I

:20:13.:20:16.

certainly see, and in my own background is a lot of the values

:20:17.:20:22.

people have are Conservative values. Except if you look at the statistics

:20:23.:20:25.

in all BME communities, and they are a patchwork, it is not correct to

:20:26.:20:29.

lump them all into the same, but across those communities, regardless

:20:30.:20:33.

of age and social class, they strongly support the Labour Party in

:20:34.:20:37.

every single one? I think you made a point there, it is important not to

:20:38.:20:43.

lump all of them together. Let 's not put everyone in a box, every

:20:44.:20:49.

delivering community and delivering generations have where they live

:20:50.:20:53.

will affect how they vote. Yes there is work for Conservatives to do, but

:20:54.:20:56.

if we look at parliamentary representation, which you touched

:20:57.:21:02.

on, in 2001 there were zero BME Conservative MPs, by 2010 there were

:21:03.:21:07.

11, the Labour Party has 16. It is still woeful, it is had. 2%, 27p MPs

:21:08.:21:15.

out of 650. There is work to be done. But I also think there is a

:21:16.:21:19.

nuance here that we shouldn't confuse representation with being

:21:20.:21:28.

relevant to people. In your package earlier there was a seat represented

:21:29.:21:34.

with 56% of them were BME, he's a white man working very hard and

:21:35.:21:37.

brilliant for the constituents. It may be a tight seat. How do you see

:21:38.:21:42.

this changing some of the debates we have already, for example on

:21:43.:21:44.

immigration. Politicians talk about immigration in way they wouldn't

:21:45.:21:47.

have done ten years ago, will this shift on to too? I think we had a

:21:48.:21:54.

problem back in 1968, Enoch Powell made his Rivers of Blood Speech,

:21:55.:21:58.

that polarised politics. The majority of Conservatives aren't

:21:59.:22:02.

racist and the majority of people in UKIP aren't racist, they are worried

:22:03.:22:06.

about immigration, we can have a fair debate about that. The issue is

:22:07.:22:11.

far too many constituencies, we are underrepresented. You are right when

:22:12.:22:14.

you talked about those numbers, it doesn't yet reflect Britain. But

:22:15.:22:19.

where as it was only 1987 we had our first black and Asian MPs getting in

:22:20.:22:24.

modern times, I think it will pick up now. The racism is a lot less

:22:25.:22:28.

than it was in politics. Finally to you Sam? I think in terms of winning

:22:29.:22:33.

people over and just going back to ten's point, delivering for people,

:22:34.:22:36.

so we talk about our long-term economic plan, if people have moved

:22:37.:22:42.

to have this country this is because they want to get on. If they want to

:22:43.:22:46.

get on, things like cutting taxes for them to keep more of what they

:22:47.:22:50.

earn, three million people being removed from tax all together and 26

:22:51.:22:55.

million people with a tax cut. That is the sort of thing that makes

:22:56.:22:58.

people believe Government is delivering for them. Their

:22:59.:23:01.

expectations of Government is what we have to deal with in order to get

:23:02.:23:06.

them to vote for us. I know you two will carry on disagreeing what it

:23:07.:23:10.

takes to get people to vote for you. Thank you for your thoughts.

:23:11.:23:14.

Oscar Pistorius was accused in court today of making a sinister remark,

:23:15.:23:19.

trying to intimidate one of his former girlfriend's friends. It is

:23:20.:23:22.

yet another episode in the court drama in real life that is gripping

:23:23.:23:27.

South Africa. But millions of its stat accepts have to live with the

:23:28.:23:32.

-- citizens have to live with the drama of sky high crime rates every

:23:33.:23:36.

day. There are elections there tomorrow, but few voters have

:23:37.:23:41.

confidence in politicians that they will bring the long arm of the law

:23:42.:23:49.

out to deal with everyone equally. The police Police say they are

:23:50.:23:55.

bracing themselves for more violent clashes tonight. Guns, there are

:23:56.:24:01.

guns. Violence, gun crime, people living in constant fear. The Oscar

:24:02.:24:07.

Pistorius trial is forcing South Africa to confront some

:24:08.:24:26.

uncomfortable truths. My daughter being raped, my granddaughter being

:24:27.:24:29.

raped, that is something that happens in this country. My fears

:24:30.:24:37.

are for my children, it is my childrens' life, I'm all that is

:24:38.:24:41.

there for my children, other than their uncles and aunts, but I have

:24:42.:24:46.

raised them on my own for 16 years, and I am the only person who can

:24:47.:24:51.

really take care of them. So I need self-defence. Many South Africans

:24:52.:24:57.

resort to buying firearms to defend themselves against would-be

:24:58.:25:01.

attackers. People like Charlene who is here to get her gun license have

:25:02.:25:05.

lost confidence in the police. As a woman it is not that easy to defend

:25:06.:25:14.

oneself, especially when most of the crime is gang-related. It is more

:25:15.:25:18.

than one person attacking you. If you are proficient in weapon use,

:25:19.:25:22.

and confident in it, then you will be able to take care of yourself and

:25:23.:25:27.

your family. 45 people are murdered here every day. The numbers are

:25:28.:25:31.

down, but compared to other countries still high. The Oscar

:25:32.:25:38.

Pistorius crime and white crime in general continues to grab

:25:39.:25:41.

international headlines, but the truth is white people are less

:25:42.:25:46.

likely to be attacked now in the new South Africa than under apartheid.

:25:47.:25:49.

So while rich whites are more fearful of crime, the reality is

:25:50.:25:52.

that the bulk of victims happen to be poor and black. In this township

:25:53.:25:57.

one of the most dangerous in the country, there is a feeling that the

:25:58.:26:01.

justice system doesn't work for ordinary people. The trial has

:26:02.:26:05.

raised concerns about crime and safety in our society, what do you

:26:06.:26:10.

think about that? I think three or four months back the owner of a shop

:26:11.:26:16.

was killed there, and the police station is two streets away from us,

:26:17.:26:23.

but their response was not there, we don't even trust our own cops. We

:26:24.:26:31.

live in fear in our own homes. If I got my girlfriend I would be in jail

:26:32.:26:35.

right now, right now. With all my money and everything I would still

:26:36.:26:39.

be in jail. First degree murder, the only person I know who has got bail,

:26:40.:26:45.

first degree murder, it is crazy. Back at home with Charlene on the

:26:46.:26:50.

outskirts of Johannesburg, the family feel abandoned and isolated.

:26:51.:26:54.

What happened is the burglars gained entry into the kitchen... The family

:26:55.:26:59.

has had to make its own security arrangements, at night her daughter

:27:00.:27:03.

organises the local Neighbourhood Watch The Internet is full of Oscar

:27:04.:27:10.

and there is ratings on Oscar. He is getting all of the attention. It is

:27:11.:27:18.

unfair that he as a known person, a celebrity, somebody who people

:27:19.:27:22.

looked up to is getting all of this kind of attention. Where as I had a

:27:23.:27:26.

break in to my house, although not much was taken, it was a small case,

:27:27.:27:32.

I understand, but a case wasn't even opened. So you obviously have the

:27:33.:27:42.

feelings of self blame, why did I stay that long? Maybe you need to go

:27:43.:27:47.

back and look at the forgiveness issue.

:27:48.:27:49.

But the Pistorius case has forced South Africa to face up to problems

:27:50.:27:54.

of domestic violence. He hit me with an iron pipe, and I didn't know what

:27:55.:27:59.

exactly he was hitting me with, I was trying to defend myself, we were

:28:00.:28:05.

fighting. Every eight hours a woman is murdered by her intimate partner.

:28:06.:28:09.

After I was lying there on the bed, you know, in the hospital, I was

:28:10.:28:14.

looking up, there was a light, a big light on my face. It is then a

:28:15.:28:19.

decision came to me that I'm going to die in this house. I'm really

:28:20.:28:24.

going to die if I don't move out. Because I have been having advice to

:28:25.:28:29.

move out but it was not yet the time. And then I decided on that

:28:30.:28:34.

hospital bed, I decided I'm moving out no matter what. I didn't have a

:28:35.:28:39.

place to go, I wasn't working, but the fear disappeared on that bed.

:28:40.:28:47.

She sought refuge in this orphanage, she became homeless following the

:28:48.:28:53.

divorce from her abusive husband. What is it about South African women

:28:54.:28:57.

that makes them feel so trapped that they cannot leave these abusive

:28:58.:29:04.

husbands or partners? Most often women are controlled by culture,

:29:05.:29:08.

they get in a marriage to make their parents proud. Some of the things is

:29:09.:29:13.

that we don't have knowledge. You get in a marriage without knowing

:29:14.:29:18.

what your rights are. You only, it is not about you, it is all about a

:29:19.:29:23.

man. Because they say you don't ask him where he has come from, his word

:29:24.:29:28.

is final. For many in South Africa, the Pistorius case is a distraction

:29:29.:29:32.

from some of the fundamental problems facing the country. There

:29:33.:29:37.

is a lot of people who, a lot of families going through the same

:29:38.:29:40.

thing that these families are, they don't get the same treatment, their

:29:41.:29:44.

trials aren't televised, they don't get the same scrutiny as he is. I

:29:45.:29:49.

don't think it is fair. It is Oscar Pistorius and that is all that

:29:50.:29:52.

really matters about this trial, not the justice system working, because

:29:53.:29:55.

it is working now, because it is one rich man and one beautiful girl that

:29:56.:30:01.

had lots of talent and one guy who had lots of talent. It is working

:30:02.:30:05.

now, but who else is it going to work for. The Pistorius case has

:30:06.:30:09.

brought renewed attention to South Africa's problems, but there is a

:30:10.:30:11.

frustration that politicians lack the will or ability to deliver real

:30:12.:30:16.

change. Now the names of the authors who

:30:17.:30:20.

opposed it could almost have been a best-seller list themselves, the

:30:21.:30:25.

Ministry of Justice plans to limit prisoners access to books provoked

:30:26.:30:29.

howls of protests in sometimes rather nonliterary terms. But this

:30:30.:30:32.

evening Newsnight has discovered the Government might have run into a bit

:30:33.:30:35.

of trouble with the plans. Emily is here. What's happening. Let me talk

:30:36.:30:40.

you through it, in my hands I have details of the legal challenge that

:30:41.:30:44.

has just been served on the Ministry of Justice over this prisoner book

:30:45.:30:48.

ban. That was the shorthand term we gave what they would call the

:30:49.:30:54.

"incentives and earned privileges scheme", it was to stop prisoners

:30:55.:31:00.

receiving small packages, many carrying books they needed could

:31:01.:31:05.

help to reinvent advise them particularly when serving long

:31:06.:31:08.

sentences. We have heard a bunch of lawyers are going to run a test case

:31:09.:31:12.

against one claimant, a woman who is serving a life sentence, she is an

:31:13.:31:16.

epilepsy sufferer, highly qualified, she has said her life is in despair

:31:17.:31:21.

without access to these books, which have really been taking her through

:31:22.:31:27.

this life sentence. Any response so far from the Government? Very

:31:28.:31:31.

interesting, because the MOJ, who haven't received the full bunkedle

:31:32.:31:35.

yet, they will get 2,000-pages. I have got the advice and

:31:36.:31:39.

yet, they will get 2,000-pages. I here. They will get the full

:31:40.:31:40.

package, 2,000 pages, 44 blames here. They will get the full

:31:41.:31:45.

that pack -- claims in here. They will get the full

:31:46.:31:48.

they have been told about this and they have said it is run out of

:31:49.:31:51.

time. The policy was introduced last November, it is three months and

:31:52.:31:55.

they have run out of time. The legal team say it doesn't matter because

:31:56.:31:58.

the piecemeal way was introduced, which means their climbant has only

:31:59.:32:02.

just started feeling the effects of it now, she is devastated. If they

:32:03.:32:06.

win it could turn over the policy. The beginning of what could be a

:32:07.:32:09.

very interesting story. You might be forgiven for being

:32:10.:32:13.

surprised to learn there are limits on how much football clubs can

:32:14.:32:16.

spend. You might wonder how effective the fair finance rules are

:32:17.:32:21.

when top earners can take home ?300 a week. Yes a week -- ?300,000 a

:32:22.:32:27.

week. Yes a week. Non-league players are lucky to get an orange slice at

:32:28.:32:32.

half time. UEFA have created a set of rules to try to stop reckless

:32:33.:32:37.

spending and prevent clubs building up suicidal levels of debt. They

:32:38.:32:41.

face hefty penalties if they ignore them. The same bulging check book

:32:42.:32:49.

that secured Manchester City the Premiership is set to land them in

:32:50.:32:55.

trouble. A lot of kids right now will be dreaming of playing for

:32:56.:32:58.

Manchester City. They look likely to win the league. But it is not all

:32:59.:33:04.

Roy of the Rovers stuff for them. City faces a ?50 million fine and

:33:05.:33:07.

retruction to the number of players it can use in European competition.

:33:08.:33:12.

That's because UEFA, the European football body, thinks City may have

:33:13.:33:18.

breached its financial fair play rules. These are rules that aim to

:33:19.:33:22.

prevent clubs from collapsing because they spent more than they

:33:23.:33:25.

make. Many football fans like the idea of these financial fair play

:33:26.:33:29.

rules. That is because a lot of supporters are quite suspicious of

:33:30.:33:32.

the role of big money in football. They don't like the idea that you

:33:33.:33:37.

just need to find some oligarch, or some foreign princeling to back your

:33:38.:33:41.

team, and then you can walk your way to the Premier League title. That is

:33:42.:33:46.

why clubs like AFC Wimbledon, fan-owned, have a lot of sympathy

:33:47.:33:49.

and support from fans of other teams. Manchester City's owner from

:33:50.:33:55.

Abu Dhabi has certainly poured money into the club. This season alone,

:33:56.:33:59.

despite starting with a team that finished strongly last year, they

:34:00.:34:04.

spent ?95 million on transfers. Crystal Palace, by contrast, who

:34:05.:34:09.

play in the same league, spent only ?24 million. Now big spending alone

:34:10.:34:13.

isn't the problem, it is spending a lot more than you make. Ed the rules

:34:14.:34:22.

say a club can only spent 45 million euros more than that it spends on

:34:23.:34:31.

running costs on sponsorship deals and players. So UEFA has to find out

:34:32.:34:36.

how much money they are spending and how much they have got. The problem

:34:37.:34:40.

is while it is pretty easy to work out how much a club is spending, it

:34:41.:34:44.

is difficult to work out exactly how much money it is earning. So if a

:34:45.:34:50.

club just spent 45 million euros more than they earned over a

:34:51.:34:53.

two-year period, and they got the owner to bail them out, UEFA would

:34:54.:34:58.

tackle that kind of behaviour. What if the club owner knew a guy who

:34:59.:35:02.

owed them favour who could put the money in for them, that might swerve

:35:03.:35:08.

around the rules. UEFA is worried about this, it calls it a "related

:35:09.:35:13.

party transaction", that is why City are in trouble. The club thinks its

:35:14.:35:21.

overspend is below 45 million euros, or ?37 million. Those numbers rest

:35:22.:35:27.

on a big sponsorship deal, worth about ?40 million with the Abu Dhabi

:35:28.:35:32.

airline headed by their owner's half brother. UEFA will want to know

:35:33.:35:35.

whether City got an unusually good deal. UEFA can also show teams a red

:35:36.:35:42.

card, banning them from European competitions all together. But it

:35:43.:35:46.

will hope that fines, which effectively cut club's financial

:35:47.:35:49.

fair play limited in future years will do. I think what UEFA are

:35:50.:35:56.

hoping to do is to get compliance by agreement, by settlement, and

:35:57.:36:03.

therefore the harsher sanctions of points deduction or actually

:36:04.:36:08.

removing clubs from the competition. I can't see it happening in the

:36:09.:36:13.

short-term. When not booking buses for a new celebration of the coming

:36:14.:36:18.

weeks, City is in negotiation with UEFA about these issues, so too is

:36:19.:36:25.

PSG, backed by Qatar. So we're in the slightly peculiar position that

:36:26.:36:29.

a rulebook, designed to stop clubs from going bust, is now catching out

:36:30.:36:33.

the clubs who have the most solvent backing of all. With us is the

:36:34.:36:41.

former chief executive of the FA, and in Salford an expert in sport

:36:42.:36:48.

finance. Firstly to you Mark, it looks like

:36:49.:36:51.

the first fines will be applied here, but with a bit of financial

:36:52.:36:57.

jigry pokery around the edges, are the rules working as designed to? I

:36:58.:37:01.

think the very fact that we are having a debate is to me, it is the

:37:02.:37:05.

proof in the pudding. We are starting a debate. Five or ten years

:37:06.:37:10.

ago we weren't having the debate, that is an important point to make.

:37:11.:37:15.

You have to distinguish between UEFA's rules at the top end of the

:37:16.:37:18.

game and the other rules that have been copied, if you like, in the

:37:19.:37:21.

Premier League and further down the leison. Down the league it is having

:37:22.:37:25.

an effect. That is where you really have to look at protecting clubs

:37:26.:37:29.

against financial problems. At the top end it is more about creating a

:37:30.:37:32.

level playing field. Can you create a level playing field, you are still

:37:33.:37:36.

going to get clubs like Manchester City, PSG, with the deepest pockets

:37:37.:37:40.

in the world, just piling cash in, it is not really going to make that

:37:41.:37:43.

much difference? Unless you stand back and get to looking at sport and

:37:44.:37:48.

saying it is a special case, at the heart of professional sport, at the

:37:49.:37:51.

heart of sport as a business and as a sport, you have this conflict. In

:37:52.:37:55.

any other business you kill off your competitors, in sport you have to

:37:56.:37:58.

maintain that competitive playing field. Professor was this a problem

:37:59.:38:04.

that really needed to be solved in your view? It didn't, if you look at

:38:05.:38:09.

the top of the English Premiership, you have three clubs in the top five

:38:10.:38:15.

not owned by super-rich Middle East oligarch, nor is it true in Europe,

:38:16.:38:18.

if you look at the Champions League, one of the teams in the Champions

:38:19.:38:23.

League final is clearly not in terms of Athletico Madrid like that. The

:38:24.:38:26.

whole issue of financial fair play is based on a false premise, which

:38:27.:38:30.

is that it is in some way to have less fair to have a foreign investor

:38:31.:38:35.

put money in, than having the situation you have in Spain where

:38:36.:38:39.

the distribution of income is such that actually the team at the bottom

:38:40.:38:43.

of the Spanish First Division gets virtually nothing, and the team at

:38:44.:38:47.

the top, whether Real Madrid or Barcelona scoop the pool. If

:38:48.:38:50.

Manchester City got the share of income that Real Madrid or Barcelona

:38:51.:38:55.

get at the English TV income, they could have had the extra ?50 million

:38:56.:39:00.

for the last three years and not in trouble at all. The whole premise is

:39:01.:39:04.

false. When you listen to those numbers it sounds like this didn't

:39:05.:39:07.

need to happen, because the equation between money in and rewards out

:39:08.:39:12.

isn't as simple as you suggest? I think what you have to do is stand

:39:13.:39:15.

back and look at this. You are looking at Manchester City at a

:39:16.:39:18.

particular point in time, you are looking at other clubs at a

:39:19.:39:21.

particular point in time. Unless you take a broader view you will come to

:39:22.:39:25.

a specific conclusion that supports your case. Take for example Arsenal,

:39:26.:39:29.

who now complain that Manchester City should be punished in, or

:39:30.:39:34.

Arsene Wenger does, but when you look at it is a function of timing.

:39:35.:39:39.

Yes Arsenal run their ship in a much more business-like way, rather than

:39:40.:39:43.

the benefactor model that Manchester City has got. They are there already

:39:44.:39:48.

and pulling up the draw bridge if you apply the rules harshly. Are you

:39:49.:39:53.

saying there is not a problem with money and football? I don't think

:39:54.:39:58.

there is the problem that UEFA first brought. It is not the problem. If

:39:59.:40:02.

you look at the German league, last year the Champions League was

:40:03.:40:06.

dominated by German club, and in a European level they are, in a sense,

:40:07.:40:14.

an ideal model, they are owned by the fans. They originally talked

:40:15.:40:18.

about the problem being debt. And the most indebted club in England

:40:19.:40:21.

has hardly been touched. Whether they were in the Champions League or

:40:22.:40:24.

not, they are not touched by this. And then the comparison between

:40:25.:40:28.

City, for example, and PSG is even more absurd. City actually have got

:40:29.:40:33.

a very good sponsorship deal, which is justified by the massive

:40:34.:40:38.

developments taking place at the stadium. You are getting the

:40:39.:40:41.

redevelopments of one of the most deprived areas of Greater Manchester

:40:42.:40:45.

on the back of the campus development. Comparing that for

:40:46.:40:49.

example with what is happening at PSG is nonsense. To see City

:40:50.:40:53.

penalised to the same degree as PSG is absurd, you have got very

:40:54.:40:56.

different scenarios and very different strategies for the two

:40:57.:41:00.

clubs. It is a completely false situation being created. So the

:41:01.:41:07.

professor is not too impressed by UEFA's grasp on the figures, isn't

:41:08.:41:12.

it the wages of footballers that get people going? Again stepping back to

:41:13.:41:19.

this, the rotting Rhino on the table is players wages are too high. If a

:41:20.:41:23.

kid was getting a million pound a year would he bother to play

:41:24.:41:27.

football? Yes he would. If he was getting ?5 million would it make a

:41:28.:41:31.

difference? Probably not, where does the extra cash go? Thank you very

:41:32.:41:35.

much indeed for joining us. Now to a very different sporting

:41:36.:41:39.

era, running a mile in less than four minutes still probably feels

:41:40.:41:43.

pretty unlikely to most of us. But until 60 years ago today no-one had

:41:44.:41:49.

ever done it. And Roger Banser, who achieved the feat wasn't even a

:41:50.:41:53.

full-time athlete when he scourged around the track in Oxford. We have

:41:54.:42:00.

set Stephen Smith the marginally easy task of telling Sir Roger's

:42:01.:42:18.

story in 3. 59 seconds! I feel the muscle pain that I had at the end,

:42:19.:42:23.

the first part felt very easy because I hadn't run or trained for

:42:24.:42:33.

five days. I went to America once, I arrived alone, and the next day

:42:34.:42:38.

someone wrote a letter, "he arrived alone, no masseur, no coach, no

:42:39.:42:43.

manager, he's either nuts or he's good"! There are lovely stories

:42:44.:42:50.

about the day, how you went to a friend's house for a ham salad and a

:42:51.:42:55.

key factor in whether to go ahead was whether a particular flag was

:42:56.:42:59.

flapping in the wind or not? There was a strong wind and lots of wane,

:43:00.:43:05.

and the tracks then were cinder tracks and it slowed a runner down

:43:06.:43:14.

perhaps by four seconds over a mile. Dr Roger Bannister. Before the BBC

:43:15.:43:22.

rightly stamped down on fakers, Record Breakers recreated the tannoy

:43:23.:43:28.

of the record, not preserved on the day. The British Empire and world

:43:29.:43:30.

record, the time 3. day. The British Empire and world

:43:31.:43:42.

after that the noise of the crowd obliterated the noise of his

:43:43.:43:46.

announcement. I'm overwhelmed, and delighted, it was a great surprise

:43:47.:43:50.

to me to be able to do it today, I this was very lucky. Bannister's

:43:51.:44:00.

pals were pace makers, both Oxbridge graduates. The academic Mary Beard

:44:01.:44:07.

has praised Bannister's achievement, but also raised a ticklish question.

:44:08.:44:11.

She also talks about a class element to it, the fact that the man who

:44:12.:44:20.

finished fourth, Tom Houlat was from a working-class background, he's

:44:21.:44:23.

rather forgotten in this great event? I think he came fourth in

:44:24.:44:29.

about 4. 20, I think it was really quite a slow event, and had been

:44:30.:44:35.

selected as one of the team but he did not happen to be the one who was

:44:36.:44:41.

involved in helping me. I would be sad if he had this feeling. My own

:44:42.:44:49.

father came from Lancashire and had no prospects in Lancashire and so he

:44:50.:44:55.

had came to London. Britain and the Commonwealth were producing

:44:56.:45:01.

Corinthian heros, scaling Everest, scourging around a craneder track --

:45:02.:45:08.

cinder track. Did they find trace elements of ham

:45:09.:45:13.

salad on you on the momentous occasion, were there any drug

:45:14.:45:17.

testing? There were drugs used already, I think, in cycling. And in

:45:18.:45:25.

the last century they were, but they were peculiarly useless drugs, I

:45:26.:45:31.

can't see how strychnine can help you perform better. You want to give

:45:32.:45:37.

that to the rivals presumably! Sir Roger, who is 85 has spent most of

:45:38.:45:41.

his life in medicine. It recently emerged that he has Parkinsons'

:45:42.:45:48.

disease. It is a bit ironic that as a neurologist, I have treated many,

:45:49.:45:52.

many patients in the course of my career and I'm not making too much

:45:53.:45:58.

of it. It is a problem, but I have had a wonderful life. The tape is

:45:59.:46:02.

broken and so is the record, athletes have long been dreaming

:46:03.:46:08.

about. And that 3. 59 was indeed your lot. That's all we have time

:46:09.:46:10.

for, good night. Some showers around for the rest of

:46:11.:46:26.

the night and we are upping the potential for getting wet over the

:46:27.:46:29.

next few days, in fact for Wednesday we will see outbreaks of rain,

:46:30.:46:33.

heading across Northern Ireland, northern England and into southern

:46:34.:46:37.

Scotland. It is breezy and there are showers to be had. A wet spot of

:46:38.:46:40.

weather into Northern Ireland, reaching to at least southern

:46:41.:46:46.

Scotland may hold off the belt until later on. Northern half of

:46:47.:46:47.

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