08/05/2014 Newsnight


08/05/2014

Nigeria's battle with Boku Haram; Labour and Pfizer; army women; Ukraine; public health league; pushing education; and tapping the oceans for medicine.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

MUSIC PLAYS. insists the mass abduction of

:00:00.:00:07.

Good evening, it is three long weeks since Islamist rebels abducted the

:00:08.:01:19.

Nigerian schoolgirls, and today the country's President asserts, without

:01:20.:01:22.

any evidence, that the kidnap would be the beginning of the end of

:01:23.:01:29.

terrorism in nigh goria. Goodluck Jonathan was

:01:30.:01:32.

terrorism in nigh goria. Goodluck Economic Forum and buoyed by

:01:33.:01:35.

logistic and intelligence support from Britain, China, France and the

:01:36.:01:39.

United States, to help find the girls before they are sold or

:01:40.:01:42.

murdered by their captors, Boko Haram. Nigeria's record in

:01:43.:01:46.

combatting the terrorist group has so far been woeful.

:01:47.:01:57.

All we have is Nair names, the 200 abducted schoolgirls. Their

:01:58.:02:01.

disappearance has suddenly pushed a long-running campaign of violence by

:02:02.:02:05.

Boko Haram to the top of the international agenda. Today the

:02:06.:02:10.

President of Nigeria dramatically declared this meant his country had

:02:11.:02:16.

reached a turning point. I believe that the kidnap of these girls will

:02:17.:02:21.

be the beginning of the end of terror in nigh goria. Under heavy --

:02:22.:02:28.

Nigeria. Under heavy criticism, the Nigerian Government says it is ready

:02:29.:02:32.

for action, perhaps, with western support. I can tell you at least two

:02:33.:02:37.

divisions of the Nigerian army were added to the fighting force in order

:02:38.:02:43.

to augment the operational capabilities of the military since

:02:44.:02:46.

the girls were abducted. But, with all this attention and even the

:02:47.:02:50.

possibility of troops going in really offer any chance of resolving

:02:51.:02:57.

a long standing and growing crisis? Even this week the violence

:02:58.:03:02.

escalated, as many as 300 killed in a remote village by Boko Haram. One

:03:03.:03:09.

eyewitness told Newsnight. The attackers came, the Nigerian

:03:10.:03:11.

military ran to the bush. Boko Haram was founded in 2002, but

:03:12.:03:46.

its campaign of violence has been escalating over the last five years,

:03:47.:03:50.

killing thousands. It was this video of the leader on Monday boasting in

:03:51.:03:55.

an almost manic fashion of kidnapping 200 girls and saying he

:03:56.:04:00.

intended to sell them, that brought international attention. The group

:04:01.:04:02.

believes women should not be at school and should be married, even

:04:03.:04:09.

as slaves. This goes to the heart of Boko Haram's ideology, its name

:04:10.:04:14.

loosely translated means "western education is forbidden". It is the

:04:15.:04:18.

Taliban of Nigeria, wanting to purge the region of outside foreign

:04:19.:04:23.

influence, and enforce Islamic rule. The girls were taken from the

:04:24.:04:28.

village of Chibok, Boko Haram's violence has been centered on the

:04:29.:04:31.

north-east of the country, where three states are under emergency

:04:32.:04:34.

rule. The group support is deeply rooted in the local grievances of

:04:35.:04:40.

the region. Its sense of alienation of the capital which is seen as

:04:41.:04:44.

Christian and corrupt. At times the violence has been spectacular, like

:04:45.:04:49.

this bombing of a UN building. While there are some ideolgical and

:04:50.:04:52.

operational links to Al-Qaeda in the region, this is a Nigerian problem.

:04:53.:04:57.

In spite of tactical links between Boko Haram and Al-Qaeda in North

:04:58.:05:03.

Africa, Boko Haram is a Nigeria-focussed group. It is not

:05:04.:05:07.

just religion driving the violence that drives Boko Haram, it is a wide

:05:08.:05:10.

array of social and economic problems that have been troubling

:05:11.:05:13.

the north of Nigeria for a very long time. Boko Haram has been growing

:05:14.:05:19.

increasingly bold, up to 50 boys were slaughtered at a school in

:05:20.:05:24.

February, 88 were then killed by car bombs in the capital in April. It

:05:25.:05:29.

was the abduction of the girls that led to protests, a campaign on

:05:30.:05:32.

social media and the west insisting on helping. Diplomats here at the

:05:33.:05:38.

Foreign Office, as well as in Washington spent three weeks trying

:05:39.:05:42.

to pressure the Nigerians to accept outside help. Nigeria is a proud

:05:43.:05:46.

country, which sees itself as the economic powerhouse of Africa. And

:05:47.:05:52.

when those small teams of western experts arrive, they may struggle to

:05:53.:05:55.

have much impact. As well as helping in the search for the girls, I'm

:05:56.:05:58.

told they will also be trying to persuade the Nigerians to adopt a

:05:59.:06:03.

more nuanced counter insurgency strategy, one that tries to win over

:06:04.:06:07.

the local population in the north, and not just use some of the brutal

:06:08.:06:12.

military tactics employed in the past.

:06:13.:06:16.

Western officials privately say the Nigerian Government lacks competence

:06:17.:06:20.

and is poorly co-ordinated, and they fear another brutal crackdown in the

:06:21.:06:23.

north. This will do nothing to deal with the underlying problems

:06:24.:06:27.

according to one person who has tried negotiating with Boko Haram.

:06:28.:06:37.

Many people in the north are as much disenchanted with the security

:06:38.:06:41.

forces as they are with the insurgents. What is very clear is

:06:42.:06:47.

that in this kind of war you cannot win it if you don't carry the people

:06:48.:06:52.

along. If the people have been suffering the consequences of the

:06:53.:06:57.

intervention by security forces and I think the whole battle has been

:06:58.:07:01.

left for the security forces, which is very difficult to fight. With

:07:02.:07:08.

reports tonight of troops and helicopters in the Chibok region,

:07:09.:07:13.

Nigeria clearly feels it now has to be seen to be doing something. But

:07:14.:07:16.

the question is, what it will end up doing? And whether it will work?

:07:17.:07:25.

We're joined now by the Nigerian Interior Minister, and he's in Ghana

:07:26.:07:31.

in Accra where he's attending a seminar on the environment.

:07:32.:07:35.

Minister, first of all, Goodluck Jonathan insists this is a turning

:07:36.:07:38.

point in dealing with terrorism, you have got absolutely no evidence to

:07:39.:07:46.

back this up? Sorry? There is no evidence to back up your President's

:07:47.:07:50.

assertion that this is a turning point for terrorism? Well the reason

:07:51.:07:59.

that Mr President insists that this is a turning point and the beginning

:08:00.:08:09.

of the end of the insurgent activities in the parts of Nigeria

:08:10.:08:14.

and the north, is the fact that for every situation there is usually a

:08:15.:08:18.

turning point, and the abduction of these ladies, innocent, defenceless

:08:19.:08:23.

ladies, preparing for their examinations, certainly presented a

:08:24.:08:28.

further impetuous for everybody to get involved in the process of

:08:29.:08:33.

ending, not just the abduction of innocent citizens, but ending this

:08:34.:08:43.

terror war in Nigeria. That assertion is not misplaced, because

:08:44.:08:47.

everybody in Nigeria is galvanised, there is a near consensus amongst

:08:48.:08:53.

all the Governments and leaders, is definitely this will have to end,

:08:54.:08:56.

this madless will have to end, and the Government is mobilising every

:08:57.:09:02.

support. You are saying now it is galvanising action, but of course

:09:03.:09:05.

there has not been a concerted effort against Boko Haram in the

:09:06.:09:08.

past. Even this week on Monday when up to 300 people were killed, ones

:09:09.:09:16.

tensably for helping -- ostensibly for helping military forces, the

:09:17.:09:21.

military forces themselves ran away, we heard a witness say. How is this

:09:22.:09:27.

dealing with the situation? Well I think it is an unfair comment on the

:09:28.:09:33.

Government to say that this Government has not seriously dealt

:09:34.:09:39.

with the issue of Boko Haram. A series of arrests have been made, a

:09:40.:09:42.

series of activities have been carried out in the recent past that

:09:43.:09:47.

has gradually decimated the rank and file of the insurgents and the

:09:48.:09:55.

insurgents have been driven from virtually out of the country and up

:09:56.:09:58.

to the north-east of the country. Of course some of the leading

:09:59.:10:03.

commanders of the insurgents have been taking out. I think it is

:10:04.:10:07.

unfair to say that nothing has been done. What has happened in the

:10:08.:10:13.

recent past is the resurgence of guerrilla-like attacks on soft,

:10:14.:10:16.

vulnerable spots. Of course you are aware that this Government and the

:10:17.:10:20.

security agencies have responded very promptly to such attacks when

:10:21.:10:25.

they are called. You haven't responded quickly, you

:10:26.:10:29.

have been offered international help for the last three weeks. The US

:10:30.:10:33.

have been offered international help the UK have been pleading to come

:10:34.:10:37.

have been offered international help Goodluck Jonathan has said they can

:10:38.:10:38.

come Goodluck Jonathan has said they can

:10:39.:10:43.

action. You are being forced to do Goodluck Jonathan has said they can

:10:44.:10:47.

this because of the international attention? I tell you something your

:10:48.:10:53.

question is predicated on misinformation. I can tell you from

:10:54.:11:00.

the beginning this Government and of the federal country of Nigeria, Dr

:11:01.:11:04.

Goodluck Jonathan, has highlighted an issue that terrorism was alien to

:11:05.:11:11.

our culture and it was an imported phenomenon that required a global

:11:12.:11:15.

attack. Of course that terrorism has no boundaries is nothing new. The

:11:16.:11:18.

fundamentalism in the north-east and the northern part of Nigeria that

:11:19.:11:24.

has precipitated this action, that western education is a sin,

:11:25.:11:30.

certainly is not in tandem with the modern trends. All along I can tell

:11:31.:11:34.

you this that a series of meetings have been held with the

:11:35.:11:36.

international community and other countries. We have been to our

:11:37.:11:44.

neighbouring countries of Niger and Chad all to ensure a containment of

:11:45.:11:48.

the situation. A series of agreements have been reached with

:11:49.:11:51.

the neighbouring countries and, I can tell you this, there is no time

:11:52.:11:56.

that any offer of assistance has been offered. We have sought for

:11:57.:11:59.

assistance to curb this insurgency based on the experiences of friendly

:12:00.:12:04.

countries. Minister I just want to make one final point. Way back last

:12:05.:12:10.

year, just a moment, way back last year, the state department of the

:12:11.:12:14.

United States of America offered to introduce a technology hub on our

:12:15.:12:19.

borders to secure our borders to prevent illegal entry, especially

:12:20.:12:24.

these people are perpetrators of this violence. The Ministry of

:12:25.:12:28.

Interior has been working with the state department officials of the

:12:29.:12:33.

United States of America since last year to restore this technology. It

:12:34.:12:37.

is not true to say that Nigeria has to refuse international assistance.

:12:38.:12:41.

What I was pointing out is what we were told in the last three weeks

:12:42.:12:44.

they have been want to go give help and only now that help has been

:12:45.:12:48.

accepted. Can I ask a final question. If it takes US troops,

:12:49.:12:54.

special force, SAS from the UK, will they have a free hand in your

:12:55.:12:59.

country to do anything they have to do to secure the release of these

:13:00.:13:04.

girls? At the moment what is going on is the fact that the United

:13:05.:13:09.

States of America and some other friendly countries, the UK and

:13:10.:13:14.

France and Kenya and neighbouring countries of Cameroon, Niger and

:13:15.:13:23.

Chad have offered to assist Nigeria with their experience. When they

:13:24.:13:30.

come they will work in conjunction with the security agencies of

:13:31.:13:34.

Nigeria to bring to an end the madness taking part in that part of

:13:35.:13:39.

the country. I want to say this, the casualties and activities bandied

:13:40.:13:43.

around are certainly not correct. I assure you the military commander in

:13:44.:13:48.

Nigeria are providing adequate information. Thank you very much

:13:49.:13:52.

indeed. The US pharmaceutical giant, Pfizer

:13:53.:13:56.

is still in full pursuit of AstraZeneca, despite the British

:13:57.:14:00.

company's rebuff. Labour has been pushing the Government hard over a

:14:01.:14:03.

deal they say puts British jobs and British science at risk. But did Ed

:14:04.:14:07.

Miliband come rather late to the party? Much later than he likes to

:14:08.:14:13.

make out. I'm joined by our chief correspondent.

:14:14.:14:15.

First of all what have we learned about Ed Miliband? This is slightly

:14:16.:14:19.

awkward. The language from Labour has been pushing the Government for

:14:20.:14:22.

a full assessment of the deal. Perhaps even a change in the law in

:14:23.:14:25.

order to do so. We have been told that in fact about ten days ago, in

:14:26.:14:29.

fact on the day the potential deal was confirmed that the chief

:14:30.:14:33.

executive of Pfizer, the American company, wrote at some length to Ed

:14:34.:14:37.

Miliband offering to come and have a meeting with him to explain his

:14:38.:14:41.

version of the bid, to talk about it, to discuss it, its potential

:14:42.:14:46.

rewards and obviously the potential risks and Ed Miliband, given that

:14:47.:14:50.

chance, actually turned it down. And frankly, in a surprisingly short

:14:51.:14:53.

letter from his Chief of Staff, which we can have a look at now, he

:14:54.:14:59.

wrote to him basically saying he was too busy. "Dear Mr Reid, the chief

:15:00.:15:03.

executive of the country. Thank you for your letter, we are entering a

:15:04.:15:08.

preelectrical period here in the UK. This will make a meeting with Ed

:15:09.:15:13.

very difficu because he's out campaigning at this time." At that

:15:14.:15:17.

stage they were happy to leave it to the Shadow Business Secretary to

:15:18.:15:19.

have conversations with Pfizer in the UK. At best it looks like Ed

:15:20.:15:23.

Miliband was trying to distance himself, and there are good reasons

:15:24.:15:27.

for doing that. Or perhaps they miscalculated the importance of this

:15:28.:15:31.

deal. The biggest potentially ever of its kind. At worst it looks like

:15:32.:15:36.

he was waiting for the bandwagon to catch up and jumped on as it passed.

:15:37.:15:40.

Miraculously tonight he has told us he will try to meet Ian Read

:15:41.:15:46.

afterall next week, but now it seems like a good idea. Now it might be

:15:47.:15:50.

too late, do we know what are the chances of the deal? What seems very

:15:51.:15:56.

likely is I have talked to one of the top ten shareholders from

:15:57.:16:00.

AstraZeneca, the hunted, they say they fully expect the American

:16:01.:16:04.

company to up their bid beyond the ?63 billion, but they are not

:16:05.:16:07.

convinced at all that will mean it will go ahead. The way they phrased

:16:08.:16:12.

it to me, "it has just landed badly", this whole thing. Much of

:16:13.:16:16.

the science community is against the idea. But the two chief executives

:16:17.:16:19.

will be up against MPs next week, both coming here. This is moving

:16:20.:16:22.

very fast, things could change significantly even before then.

:16:23.:16:28.

One of the final frontiers of female equality is the Armed Forces. Women

:16:29.:16:32.

soldiers are already on the frontline providing logistical and

:16:33.:16:35.

intelligence support and bomb disposal. But should they be

:16:36.:16:38.

fighting alongside their male colleagues? The Government isn't

:16:39.:16:42.

sure but wants to decide. Today announcing that their review of the

:16:43.:16:46.

ban on women in close combat roles is to be brought forward. If they

:16:47.:16:49.

are looking for change, they won't get it without a fight. Former Chief

:16:50.:16:55.

of Staff Lord Dannett will have no truck with asking women soldiers to

:16:56.:16:59.

kill. In my judgment the point of principle overrides what women might

:17:00.:17:04.

or might not wish to do. To be in a unit given orders to attack a hill,

:17:05.:17:07.

town or village, that is a role not for women. If a woman is in a combat

:17:08.:17:15.

logistic patrol taking supplies forward and gets caught up in

:17:16.:17:18.

fighting and does well that is tremendous, there is a different set

:17:19.:17:21.

of circumstances from the one I'm decribing, there is a point of

:17:22.:17:24.

principle there, it is an important one for people to reflect upon. Is

:17:25.:17:30.

he right, with me is my guest, the most senior woman in the British

:17:31.:17:34.

Army after a retirement after 27 years, and from Toronto the first

:17:35.:17:40.

woman to command an all-male field force squadron. Good evening to both

:17:41.:17:46.

of you. Is Richard Dannett right, it is not a role for women close

:17:47.:17:53.

combat? I absolutely respect the operational views of Lord Dannett,

:17:54.:18:03.

but I do disagree on his observations that it is no place for

:18:04.:18:09.

women. In my experience no man is sent into battle without extensive

:18:10.:18:14.

training, both as an individual and also within a combat team. You feel

:18:15.:18:22.

that women can be snipers and do close-to-close combat and wield

:18:23.:18:25.

bayonets? I think women should be judged on the basis of their

:18:26.:18:28.

capability, not on the basis of their gender. And therefore, if

:18:29.:18:32.

women want to step up to the challenge of service in the combat

:18:33.:18:40.

arms, and not sure why their gender should exclude them. Surely women

:18:41.:18:44.

are as capable as men? Women certainly have the courage of men

:18:45.:18:47.

and it is nothing to do with that, and there are American aspects there

:18:48.:18:51.

that I don't agree with Richard Dannett, but we are not the same. We

:18:52.:18:55.

do not have the same physical capability of men. And I am

:18:56.:19:01.

concerned that the standards of physical fitness will be reduced for

:19:02.:19:04.

reasons of gender equality. And you know the British Army has a

:19:05.:19:08.

reputation of being one of the best and the fittest in the world and I

:19:09.:19:14.

would hate to think that to include women those standards are reduced.

:19:15.:19:20.

So the standards are reduced? Does that mean you think for example that

:19:21.:19:24.

the effectiveness of a unit could be compromised if women's physical

:19:25.:19:27.

fitness, as you see it, was not sufficient to the mens'? Absolutely.

:19:28.:19:32.

Absolutely. Yes, I mean you know we're talking about women having to

:19:33.:19:37.

carry, or an infantry soldier having to carry a back of perhaps 65s can,

:19:38.:19:46.

there is kgs. There is a case of a woman in America serving in both

:19:47.:19:49.

Iraq and Afghanistan and has suffered permanent physical damage

:19:50.:19:52.

because of the weights that she had to carry over an extended period.

:19:53.:19:56.

And I think we have to accept that women do a fantastic job in so many

:19:57.:20:00.

roles, yes they are on the frontline, and yes they do a good

:20:01.:20:03.

job and there are very good careers for them, but I do not believe in

:20:04.:20:09.

that. You say even carrier the pack was too much for us, even the roles

:20:10.:20:13.

performed just now can be detrimental to their health? We are

:20:14.:20:18.

talking about infantry soldiers having to carry those packs. Let me

:20:19.:20:24.

put that back here, women are not physically as capable as men for

:20:25.:20:28.

soldiering? I don't understand this line of argument. The last review

:20:29.:20:32.

that was carried out by the Ministry of Defence in 2010 didn't actually

:20:33.:20:37.

have significant concerns about the strength of women, the issue was

:20:38.:20:46.

about team dynamics. Look at our female olympians, who wants to get

:20:47.:20:51.

into a ring with the boxer Nicola Adams? Whether you are a man or a

:20:52.:20:54.

woman that is actually quite a challenging prospect. There are some

:20:55.:20:59.

women who are strong enough, capable enough, aggressive enough, some

:21:00.:21:06.

women who have got the physical... You need aggression? You need

:21:07.:21:10.

aggression, you absolutely do. The Secretary has made quite clear that

:21:11.:21:14.

there is no question of lowering standards or of damaging operational

:21:15.:21:21.

capability. What about the idea that women are as aggressive as men, is

:21:22.:21:29.

there an emotional difference here Judith Webb? Think that argument

:21:30.:21:33.

doesn't hold water now because women have proved in many circumstances.

:21:34.:21:39.

But I do say why don't we have women in male rugby teams, you know. We

:21:40.:21:44.

don't, nobody would consider having a woman playing in a rugby team in a

:21:45.:21:49.

male rugby team, all-male rugby team, because she doesn't have the

:21:50.:21:53.

same physical strength to withstand that, not combat, but it is almost

:21:54.:21:58.

combat. If you apply that argument you could apply it to a lot of other

:21:59.:22:02.

things. Surely it is very concerning to you that you actually think that

:22:03.:22:05.

women, OK they play a different role but they actually can't play a full

:22:06.:22:09.

role in the army is what you are suggesting? Women play a very full

:22:10.:22:15.

role in the army. Just because you are not an infantry soldier doesn't

:22:16.:22:19.

mean you don't play a full role in the army. There are plenty of male

:22:20.:22:23.

soldiers who are not infantry soldiers, you play a full role. If

:22:24.:22:26.

there is an argument to be had I think there should be more openings

:22:27.:22:30.

for senior officers and senior roles within the army for women. I do

:22:31.:22:35.

think that there is a bit of a Mafia and the fact that the chief of the

:22:36.:22:39.

general staff, of defence staff has only ever been someone from a tooth

:22:40.:22:47.

arm. Would you like to have seen close combat, would that have been

:22:48.:22:50.

something for your career that you would have welcomed? Actually for me

:22:51.:22:56.

personally it wouldn't, it is very difficult to answer that question,

:22:57.:23:00.

because I joined the army 27 years ago so my thinking was very

:23:01.:23:03.

different then, because I was excluded from so many roles. But I

:23:04.:23:07.

think probably it wouldn't have been a route down which I would have

:23:08.:23:11.

gone. That doesn't mean to say that I don't think that these

:23:12.:23:17.

extraordinarily physically capable competent professional women, who

:23:18.:23:21.

want to have the opportunity, to serve the nation in these. Is there

:23:22.:23:27.

a frustration there? There is a frustration. Whether or not women

:23:28.:23:30.

want to serve in the combat arms, to have an exclusion based purely on

:23:31.:23:39.

gender for an army, one of the core values of the army is respect for

:23:40.:23:43.

others. It is really disrespectful to women to say you can do these

:23:44.:23:46.

things but not those things. Thank you very much both of you indeed.

:23:47.:23:51.

You would think the one person the pro-Russian seperatists in Ukraine

:23:52.:23:54.

would listen to would be President Putin, but today they ignored a call

:23:55.:23:58.

from the Russian leader to postpone the referendum on self-rule,

:23:59.:24:02.

declaring they would go ahead on Sunday with a vote that could lead

:24:03.:24:08.

to war. But then it is likely Putin would have ignored Angela Merkel's

:24:09.:24:14.

call to not make a visit to Crimea tomorrow. As far as Reverends geo,

:24:15.:24:21.

Putin -- referendums go, Putin expects the rebels to defy him and

:24:22.:24:26.

distancing himself and avoiding punitive sanctions.

:24:27.:24:31.

We spent the day in the heartland of the rebellion and begins with

:24:32.:24:40.

reporting from Donetsk. On the streets here they are asking what on

:24:41.:24:47.

earth is Putin playing at? "We will decide" this man says, right now,

:24:48.:24:51.

right here it is their decision. Many people here see Vladimir Putin

:24:52.:24:57.

as their ultimate supporter in their struggle to break-away from Kiev.

:24:58.:25:00.

Now some fear he might be pulling back. Inside the seperatist

:25:01.:25:06.

headquarters this morning, there were meetings behind closed doors as

:25:07.:25:12.

they debated how to respond. The leaders inside this building, the

:25:13.:25:19.

party of the Donetsk seperatist Republic have had the rug pulled out

:25:20.:25:24.

from under their feet. That is causing angst. For weeks the east

:25:25.:25:28.

has been building up to Sunday's referendum on independence, could

:25:29.:25:31.

they back down now? In the end they decided they couldn't. So is Putin

:25:32.:25:37.

the puppetmaster here or is he losing control of a crisis partly of

:25:38.:25:41.

his own making? Kiev has deployed troops, mostly around the seperatist

:25:42.:25:49.

stronghold of Slovansk. Beyond this Government checkpoint lies the only

:25:50.:25:54.

town fully under the seperatists' control. What do the seperatists

:25:55.:25:58.

think Putin is up to? At the entrance to the town we met members

:25:59.:26:02.

of the pro-independence militia, preparing for what they fear could

:26:03.:26:09.

be an imminent attack. TRANSLATION: We didn't expect Vladimir Putin to

:26:10.:26:13.

suggest postponing the referendum. He's a wise man and good strategist,

:26:14.:26:17.

a clever politician, maybe he's planning something we can't yet see?

:26:18.:26:26.

These are the people known as the little green men, one said he was a

:26:27.:26:30.

dentist and the other a vet, all of them said they were native

:26:31.:26:33.

Ukrainians, though they wouldn't tell me how they were recruited or

:26:34.:26:37.

where they got their guns. These men have crossed a rubicon, with or

:26:38.:26:42.

without Putin they told me they want their independence. TRANSLATION: For

:26:43.:26:47.

me Ukraine doesn't exist any more, our parliament is full of fascists.

:26:48.:26:58.

We need our own country now. In central Sloviansk, the vehicles are

:26:59.:27:01.

paraded they captured off the regular army. Local civilians have

:27:02.:27:06.

lost their lives here, even as Kiev continues the anti-terror operation.

:27:07.:27:14.

Under Lenin a notice reads "we will never forget, we will never

:27:15.:27:18.

forgive", and yet every day life seems some how to continue. But this

:27:19.:27:22.

disguises a fundamental flaw in Sunday's referendum. This vote will

:27:23.:27:27.

be held in only a handful of areas, on a war footing. Of course we are

:27:28.:27:33.

all frightened because we are surrounded by our own army, and as

:27:34.:27:43.

far as I know very hard artillery, arms, aimed to our people. As we are

:27:44.:27:48.

talking to the school teacher a masked man approaches and demands to

:27:49.:27:54.

know who we are and what we are doing? This whole town is on edge,

:27:55.:28:00.

the seperatists see spies and infiltrators on every corner. Those

:28:01.:28:05.

who openly defy them, like the town's mayor, have been locked up in

:28:06.:28:08.

the basement of the local intelligence headquarters. Can

:28:09.:28:12.

anyone still influence events here? Two of the people we have been

:28:13.:28:16.

speaking to here over the past few weeks have now fled in fear of their

:28:17.:28:21.

lives. And they have told us that masked men have been going

:28:22.:28:25.

house-to-house, knocking on doors, threatening anyone who doesn't

:28:26.:28:34.

support the People's Republic of Donetsk. It is in this atmosphere

:28:35.:28:39.

some in the cue crane will vote to -- in the Ukraine will vote to split

:28:40.:28:44.

off from the rest of the country. Even Putin appears to be distancing

:28:45.:28:49.

himself from the referendum, fearing perhaps a conflict on his border

:28:50.:28:53.

that he can no longer control. We will have the latest on the

:28:54.:28:58.

crisis tomorrow, when we will report on Victory Day in Moscow.

:28:59.:29:03.

For thousands of people in England, football is a life and death

:29:04.:29:08.

business, metaphorically speaking, well actually literally. Using

:29:09.:29:14.

public health England's latest data on life expectancy, our avid

:29:15.:29:18.

football fan decided to undertake a bit of mental rather than physical

:29:19.:29:23.

exercise. Using catchment areas of football clubs alongside the data,

:29:24.:29:26.

he has analysed where in the country people are likely to live longer.

:29:27.:29:31.

Now we are at the end of the season which town is in the Premier League

:29:32.:29:37.

of health and which at the bottom of the table?

:29:38.:29:44.

Football fans cheerfully chant they will support their team until they

:29:45.:29:49.

die. But, how long will they live? Can we expect some fans to go on for

:29:50.:29:56.

much longer than others? So I have crunched the numbers, I looked at

:29:57.:30:01.

club catchment areas, within them I identified 100,000 people, close

:30:02.:30:04.

living closest to the ground. It is a bit rough and ready, it is really

:30:05.:30:07.

about towns rather than football fans, but I pulled out the

:30:08.:30:12.

statistics on life expectancy, "binge drinking" and produced my own

:30:13.:30:18.

league tables, including obesity. The results are startling. Here is

:30:19.:30:22.

the top of the Premier League, Crawley Town are England's longevity

:30:23.:30:27.

champion, Chelsea fans may note they are still third! Turning to the

:30:28.:30:32.

bottom of the table, Manchester City and Liverpool do badly, as do

:30:33.:30:36.

Birmingham City and Aston Villa. Clubs in more prosperous areas do

:30:37.:30:41.

rather better. The idea that people living in poorer areas don't live as

:30:42.:30:45.

long as those in richer areas isn't exactly shocking. Even so the

:30:46.:30:49.

difference is enormous. This is Chelsea and remember we're not

:30:50.:30:55.

talking about one street, one neighbourhood, we are talking about

:30:56.:30:58.

100,000 people in this area, men live on average 81 years, the

:30:59.:31:04.

equivalent figure for Birmingham City is

:31:05.:31:13.

hard to live healthily on a tight budget, through other indicators.

:31:14.:31:18.

hard to live healthily on a tight the Chelsea catchment area just 13%

:31:19.:31:21.

hard to live healthily on a tight are obese. For Aston Villa

:31:22.:31:26.

hard to live healthily on a tight high. What about "binge

:31:27.:31:29.

hard to live healthily on a tight For men that's consuming eight

:31:30.:31:33.

hard to live healthily on a tight prevalent in poorer areas. But

:31:34.:31:35.

hard to live healthily on a tight are local cultural factors to take

:31:36.:31:39.

into account. The safe drinking champions at the top

:31:40.:31:44.

into account. The safe drinking Birmingham City, West Brom and

:31:45.:31:45.

Bradford, you can see areas of big Birmingham City, West Brom and

:31:46.:31:49.

Muslim populations drink less. Turning now to the bottom of the

:31:50.:31:54.

table, for Sunderland, Bristol City, York and Sheffield United, 30% of

:31:55.:31:58.

the catchments reported a binge in the previous week. Newcastle is

:31:59.:32:02.

propping up the table on 41%. the previous week. Newcastle is

:32:03.:32:07.

the way these factors interact is not straight forward. Here

:32:08.:32:12.

the way these factors interact is Preston northend male life he can

:32:13.:32:16.

peck standcy is just under 35, that is putting it in line with Mexico.

:32:17.:32:21.

But the story is complicated. For example here in Preston there isn't

:32:22.:32:26.

But the story is complicated. For a problem with obesity, it is that

:32:27.:32:28.

complication that makes this issue such a challenge for policy makers.

:32:29.:32:34.

So no two areas are alike. National and global forces may be the key

:32:35.:32:38.

drivers of inequality, but the policy responses must often come at

:32:39.:32:42.

the street, the neighbourhood or even the club level.

:32:43.:32:48.

If you want to look at the full tables of all the information it is

:32:49.:32:57.

on the website. Tiger mums, pushy parents, hot-house kids, education

:32:58.:33:03.

is littered with judgmental saying when it comes to parental

:33:04.:33:06.

involvement in education, but a leading educationalist, once a top

:33:07.:33:09.

man in Tony Blair's team says children in the UK are being held

:33:10.:33:13.

back in a culture which we undervalue hard work and parents

:33:14.:33:17.

don't push. This stands in stark contrast to East Asia and he cites

:33:18.:33:23.

as evidence the UK's sixth place in the learning curve index, the

:33:24.:33:28.

ranking of 39 countries educational performance. Sing cor, Korea, China

:33:29.:33:34.

and Finland are ahead of us. Remember the battle hymn of the

:33:35.:33:43.

tiger mother it turns out she might have been right. South Korean kids

:33:44.:33:48.

it emerges are leading the world no in cognitive skills and educational

:33:49.:33:55.

attainment, not just pop music. Education, education, education. Now

:33:56.:34:03.

a former adviser to Tony Blair turned education guru says we could

:34:04.:34:10.

learn a thing or two from them. The learning curve says Britain lags

:34:11.:34:13.

behind Asian countries because we don't teach our kids to work hard.

:34:14.:34:17.

He says parents here don't pressure their kids to achieve because we

:34:18.:34:22.

assume they are either clever or not clever and that the number of hours

:34:23.:34:25.

spent in front of the blackboard won't change it. That's certainly

:34:26.:34:30.

not the way they do it in South Korea. Where the average child

:34:31.:34:35.

spends 13 hours a day in education. Not necessarily in dance class.

:34:36.:34:44.

Michael Barber is here, and I'm joined from Boston by the Finnish

:34:45.:34:50.

education expert and author of the book.

:34:51.:34:54.

So basically what you are essentially saying is here the

:34:55.:34:57.

attitude is you are born clever or not, and by and large parents just

:34:58.:35:02.

accept that and don't push the kids? The tradition is very steeped in our

:35:03.:35:06.

culture is people have said they are either clever or smart in America or

:35:07.:35:11.

they are not, and then the education system simply rereinforces the

:35:12.:35:19.

starting points. And the 11+ we had right up until the 70s determined

:35:20.:35:23.

your future in secondary education. What happens in the Asian cultures

:35:24.:35:28.

is of valuing of hard work and effort and a belief that will lead

:35:29.:35:31.

to success, the teachers believe it, the parents believe it and it comes

:35:32.:35:34.

through in the results. I'm not saying I want Britain to be like

:35:35.:35:39.

Korea. With children doing four or five hours homework every day. I am

:35:40.:35:44.

saying parents should be, and teachers should be rewarding hard

:35:45.:35:47.

work and progress, there is very good psychological research. You

:35:48.:35:50.

don't think that is being done now? I think there is much more of that

:35:51.:35:53.

could be done. And many, many teachers do it every day, but we

:35:54.:35:56.

could do more of it, and the parents, when they see good work

:35:57.:35:59.

they could say that is a great piece of work, rather than oh how clever

:36:00.:36:03.

you are. From your point of view and you obviously looked at the Finnish

:36:04.:36:08.

model in the top six but further down, you don't think the Asian

:36:09.:36:15.

model fits other cultures? I think the Asian model is culturally bound.

:36:16.:36:19.

Many things that explain why they are doing so well. Many people don't

:36:20.:36:23.

know that the Asian children go to school twice when in England and in

:36:24.:36:27.

Finland children go to school only once. I think the main... Explain

:36:28.:36:31.

what you mean by that they go to school twice? Most children in most

:36:32.:36:37.

south-east Asian countries they go to school after the normal school

:36:38.:36:43.

ends, nominally about -- normally 4.00 in the evening, the second

:36:44.:36:51.

school day goes from 6.00 until midnight. It is working? But the

:36:52.:36:56.

rankings is not measuring what the education system is doing but the

:36:57.:37:01.

culture. The main problem with the learning curve ranking and the

:37:02.:37:06.

OACD's ranking is the whole idea of smartness and intelligence is

:37:07.:37:10.

limited to a very small number of academic subjects. In Finland and

:37:11.:37:14.

many other countries you can be smart and clever by being good in

:37:15.:37:17.

music or sports or something else, not only in maths and science. That

:37:18.:37:22.

is in terms of your rankings you are doing it purely on academics and in

:37:23.:37:26.

fact a lot of the Asian countries are now realising that actually the

:37:27.:37:29.

creative skills are important and having to import them. The Scottish

:37:30.:37:32.

Ballet is doing work with these kids because they get none of that? Sure,

:37:33.:37:38.

that is not important, what is really important to say about this

:37:39.:37:40.

particular ranking we are publishing today is a composite of a lot of

:37:41.:37:45.

different rankings including success in completing university, there is a

:37:46.:37:48.

range of things brought together. But not in the rounded person?

:37:49.:37:52.

However what you see in schools in England, and you see research on

:37:53.:37:57.

this, the schools that do well in the academic subjects often and very

:37:58.:38:00.

often actually do well in all the other things. If you look at Ofsted

:38:01.:38:03.

reports in this country you will find the schools that do well in

:38:04.:38:06.

exams and literacy and numeracy also do well in music and art. It is a

:38:07.:38:11.

false dichotomy to put the two things in opposition. I'm not

:38:12.:38:16.

advocating we do what Korea does it here in England, we have to get a

:38:17.:38:19.

rounded education. But the results represent something. It seems you

:38:20.:38:22.

are also saying that parents have to get a grip and have to be going to

:38:23.:38:25.

the school and pushing harder. That actually there is a much more

:38:26.:38:29.

laissez faire attitude and we have to get rid of that? I am saying

:38:30.:38:32.

that. I think it is very important whether you live in Finland, Britain

:38:33.:38:37.

or Korea that you are prepared for the 21st century global economy and

:38:38.:38:40.

the society which is fast-moving and depends on knowledge, capability and

:38:41.:38:44.

the ability to do that. And parents are not doing enough? Lot of them

:38:45.:38:48.

are, but we could do more. Is it your experience that actually much

:38:49.:38:51.

greater parental involvement will improve things? I think parents have

:38:52.:38:59.

to support the children's learning, but I don't believe we can ever do

:39:00.:39:03.

the same things that the South Koreans or Japanese or sing support

:39:04.:39:08.

is doing. -- Singapore is doing with the parents studying with their

:39:09.:39:12.

children. Parents have to support their kids but there has to be life

:39:13.:39:15.

after school and we have to respect their childhood. You are saying

:39:16.:39:19.

culturally in Asia, would it be fair to say, and this is only an

:39:20.:39:23.

observation of mine that actually the whole discipline and the whole

:39:24.:39:26.

respect issue and the whole way that families operate is quite different?

:39:27.:39:29.

Absolutely. I think the families operate is quite different?

:39:30.:39:33.

cultures are much more built families operate is quite different?

:39:34.:39:37.

competition and race for the good universities and good schools. We

:39:38.:39:41.

are simply speaking about very different cultures and I agree with

:39:42.:39:45.

Michael that there are things to learn from these countries, but they

:39:46.:39:48.

are not the things that we should be pushing our children harder and

:39:49.:39:53.

starting school earlier and spending longer hours in school, they are

:39:54.:39:56.

more related to how we treat our teachers and how we help our schools

:39:57.:40:00.

to work together. Would you say that Michael Gove is taking things in the

:40:01.:40:04.

right direction? Overall I would say, yes, Michael Gove is taking

:40:05.:40:07.

things in the right direction, setting higher standards through the

:40:08.:40:11.

new national curriculum, really investing in recruiting great people

:40:12.:40:17.

in to teaching. Taking on your work from new Labour? Taking it on, yes.

:40:18.:40:22.

That will help. I want to make one other point, learning exactly what

:40:23.:40:24.

was just said, we can't replicate Asian cultures, we can learn things

:40:25.:40:29.

from them and apply them to the system.

:40:30.:40:32.

from them and apply them to the wrong to set his face against free

:40:33.:40:34.

schools, that is an option? Some of the free schools have clearly been a

:40:35.:40:37.

mistake, but some of them will do really well. There is a wonderful

:40:38.:40:39.

school in really well. There is a wonderful

:40:40.:40:44.

question, School 21, the headteacher goes to every single parents' home

:40:45.:40:49.

before the start and talks about the relationship, we will get great

:40:50.:40:51.

innovation. Thank you very much indeed. The World Health

:40:52.:40:56.

Organisation's report on the efficacy

:40:57.:40:59.

Organisation's report on the warned unless there is a step change

:41:00.:41:03.

into new ways to fight old diseases people will die from once treatable

:41:04.:41:07.

infections. There is one vast unstabbed source of life-saving

:41:08.:41:11.

medicines, the oceans, that could be the source of everything. They

:41:12.:41:16.

include one of our most beautiful sea creatures.

:41:17.:41:31.

It is an industry there is a about to see ?120 million of investment

:41:32.:41:37.

from the European Union. The work can cost ?20,000 a day, but the end

:41:38.:41:41.

products could make a difference to millions of people around the world.

:41:42.:41:55.

But what is it they are looking for? This sciencic spot on the west coast

:41:56.:41:57.

of Scotland might not This sciencic spot on the west coast

:41:58.:42:01.

is at the centre of cutting-edge medical receremony. But beneath the

:42:02.:42:06.

waves lies an incredibly rich and diverse array of life. It is here

:42:07.:42:11.

where scientists are pinning their hopes on finding the next generation

:42:12.:42:25.

of life-saving drugsBut beneath the waves lies an incredibly rich and

:42:26.:42:26.

diverse Since the discovery of penicillin we

:42:27.:42:35.

frequently turn to nature to find new medicines. But on land we are

:42:36.:42:39.

exhausted and we are in desperate need of new drugs. In Europe 25,000

:42:40.:42:46.

people a year die from infections that are now antibiotic resistant.

:42:47.:42:52.

The World Health Organisation says we are on the verge of a global

:42:53.:42:55.

health crisis. We are turning to the oceans to find

:42:56.:42:58.

new drugs because we have very little left in the way of defences.

:42:59.:43:04.

So in a relatively short period of time we're going to be back where we

:43:05.:43:10.

were in the 1940s before antibiotics were used.

:43:11.:43:16.

But it is not just antibiotics, starfish contain antiinflammatory

:43:17.:43:21.

chemicals that scientists are using to develop new drugs for asthma and

:43:22.:43:25.

arthritis, and unusual gene sequences in other marine creatures

:43:26.:43:29.

could provide treatments from anything from pain relief to cancer.

:43:30.:43:33.

Nature is a fantastic designer, it is constantly making new things. It

:43:34.:43:37.

is also testing that it has been doing that for E.ONs, the sea is

:43:38.:43:44.

where we came from. If something has happened it happened in the sea

:43:45.:43:47.

first. The oceans cover more than two-thirds of the earth's surface,

:43:48.:43:52.

yet just 5% has so far been explored, it is its untapped

:43:53.:43:59.

potential is sparking a medical goldrush. Dr John Day is a

:44:00.:44:06.

researcher of the Scottish Say social for Marine Sciences, they are

:44:07.:44:10.

part of a consortium that has received ?6 million from the EU to

:44:11.:44:14.

scour the depths. Historically this isn't place people have looked, so

:44:15.:44:17.

they haven't exploited it. In addition there is a whole raft of

:44:18.:44:21.

new technologies that are allowing one to screen more methodically,

:44:22.:44:26.

more scientifically, and of course a political will. We are looking to

:44:27.:44:30.

exploit other parts of the planet. How can we produce new industries,

:44:31.:44:38.

new technologies. There is a lot of energy and resources going into this

:44:39.:44:42.

new area, and that's partly because in coastal areas like this, there

:44:43.:44:48.

are clearly defined laws about how scientists can exploit the riches of

:44:49.:44:53.

the sea. But out there in deeper water it is a different story.

:44:54.:45:00.

Within 200 miles of a country's coast each state decides what

:45:01.:45:03.

exploration can take place. Beyond that boundary lies open

:45:04.:45:08.

international waters. This area is governed by the UN's law of the sea.

:45:09.:45:13.

Which regulates activities such as mineral extraction. But it doesn't

:45:14.:45:17.

cover the hunt for new medicines, it is effectively unregulated.

:45:18.:45:27.

This wild west of the seas is home to an extraordinary range of

:45:28.:45:31.

creatures and plants. The worry is that without regulation these

:45:32.:45:35.

fragile habitats could be damaged beyond repair. The lack of clear

:45:36.:45:40.

jurisdiction may cause other problems too. It is particularly

:45:41.:45:43.

important for companies to have legal clarity when they are working

:45:44.:45:47.

in open waters, because they are making a huge investment and if they

:45:48.:45:53.

don't have legal certainty then it means that they will potentionally

:45:54.:45:59.

lose the right to produce that drug and that just is not acceptable to

:46:00.:46:03.

them. And in my opinion that would potentially put a lot of companies

:46:04.:46:09.

off investing in taking samples from the deep sea marine environment. For

:46:10.:46:16.

now, at least, back on the shore, they are ploughing on. This Scottish

:46:17.:46:20.

company is opening a plant to extract wound-healing chemicals from

:46:21.:46:25.

seaweed on an industrial scale. However, it is early days. Drug

:46:26.:46:29.

development can take 15 years and cost more than a billion pound to

:46:30.:46:38.

bring a new product to market. This now would be a drop in the ocean. If

:46:39.:46:43.

this new frontier in medical research lives up to its promise.

:46:44.:46:49.

Just before the papers, a word about a special edition of Newsnight a

:46:50.:46:53.

week on Monday, ahead of the European elections we want your

:46:54.:46:57.

questions about the EU and the UK's relationship with it, we will use

:46:58.:47:00.

all the wepts in the Newsnight -- weapons in the Newsnight Arsenal to

:47:01.:47:05.

try to answer them, however naughty, everything you wanted to know about

:47:06.:47:09.

Europe but were afraid to ask. A Newsnight special on Monday 19th of

:47:10.:47:14.

May. Send your questions to the website. Tomorrow morning's front

:47:15.:47:17.

pages, beginning with the That's all for tonight, I'm back for

:47:18.:47:58.

tomorrow. As we go we remember the British planetry scientist, Colin

:47:59.:48:05.

Pillinger, died aged 70. Best known for his 2003 attempt to land a

:48:06.:48:11.

spacecraft on Mars, although it was failed, his enthusiasm for his

:48:12.:48:15.

spacecraft on Mars, although it was has inspired space fans the world

:48:16.:48:15.

over. I don't have a regret about anything

:48:16.:48:40.

I have done, there is unfinished business on Mars.

:48:41.:48:49.

We will have to take the rough with the smooth this weekend. Friday is

:48:50.:49:06.

unsettled, rain and showers, the best of the sunshine further south

:49:07.:49:09.

where bright and breezy

:49:10.:49:10.