09/06/2014 Newsnight


09/06/2014

The head of Ofsted v Paxman over the Trojan Horse row. The ubiquity of rape in war: we look at South Sudan. Are black holes real? Plus, tributes to Rik Mayall.


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Closer supervision of schools and a requirement that they instill

:00:07.:00:11.

British values. The Education Secretary is trying to appear

:00:12.:00:14.

resolute in his response to keeping schools out of the hands of the

:00:15.:00:19.

extremists. But the Chief Inspector of Schools says he suggested closer

:00:20.:00:23.

supervision to Michael Gove years ago and got no

:00:24.:00:27.

You said to the Secretary of State you wanted to make unannounced

:00:28.:00:30.

inspections and what did he say? Yes. We had a discussion and we felt

:00:31.:00:34.

we needed to pull back from that one. The opposition smelt blood.

:00:35.:00:40.

They are the main stay of science fiction, places where gravity is so

:00:41.:00:47.

strong, not even light can escape. Einstein established their basis

:00:48.:00:51.

years ago, but suppose black holes don't exist in the way we think.

:00:52.:00:55.

This physicist is proposing something very like that.

:00:56.:01:00.

Also tonight... There was a spike sticking out of my head with park

:01:01.:01:04.

keeper on the end of it. And he said what are you doing going to sleep

:01:05.:01:09.

underneath the litter you vagrant, I said I'm not, an investigative

:01:10.:01:20.

reporter. Rik Myall, the comic genius of the 1980s has died.

:01:21.:01:25.

Five schools in Birmingham are being put into special measures after the

:01:26.:01:33.

disclosure of a plot to take them over. The Education Secretary,

:01:34.:01:37.

Michael Gove, says he will make it impossible for such a thing to ever

:01:38.:01:41.

happen again and make sure all children are properly thought about

:01:42.:01:46.

"British values". The leader of Birmingham City council has admitted

:01:47.:01:49.

his own council's supervision was inadequate. The scandal has raised

:01:50.:01:53.

huge questions about the way our children are taught and how our

:01:54.:02:02.

schools are run. First tonight we have this report the ??FORCEDWHIT

:02:03.:02:07.

Why are schools serving this predominantly poor Pakistani

:02:08.:02:13.

neighbourhood in Birmingham taking over the news.

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There is reports that a conspiracy of Muslim hardliners are taking over

:02:17.:02:19.

state schools. Today the first barrage of reports from the saga

:02:20.:02:23.

emerged from the authorities. Ofsted looked into 21 schools and the Chief

:02:24.:02:29.

Inspector said that in some of them there was a culture of fear and

:02:30.:02:34.

intimidation. An organised campaign to target schools to alter their

:02:35.:02:39.

character and ethos. Examples of governors exerting inappropriate

:02:40.:02:42.

influence in the day-to-day running of schools. And children being badly

:02:43.:02:47.

prepared for life in modern Britain. It is probably more around a strong

:02:48.:02:51.

conservative interpretation of faith rather than goading and encouraging

:02:52.:02:56.

students towards violent activities. What we are more concerned about is

:02:57.:03:02.

whether students are denied the full breadth of the curriculum and

:03:03.:03:06.

entitlement in normal state British funded schools. The so called Trojan

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Horse letter", the document that sparked all of this, is widely

:03:12.:03:15.

considered now to be a hoax. But the inspectors did find evidence that a

:03:16.:03:19.

small clique of hardline Muslims were having an undue influence on

:03:20.:03:23.

some schools. The worst allegations relate to four schools, all in

:03:24.:03:27.

special measures. Inspectors found examples of pupils being taught that

:03:28.:03:30.

they shouldn't believe in evolution. They found one example of an

:03:31.:03:34.

external speaker with very extreme views, and head teachers who got in

:03:35.:03:39.

the way, being eased out. I am proud to be able to make sure that I meet

:03:40.:03:46.

the cultural needs of the community. I am from the community and I know

:03:47.:03:49.

what it is like to be someone from that background. I know from my own

:03:50.:03:56.

experiences what I have experienced. I want the children to come to

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school every day, our attendance is phenomenal, parents and children are

:04:04.:04:06.

happy. I want to provide as much as I can. But equally when I say too

:04:07.:04:12.

much is too much and no, we are not faith school i need to be listened

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to. Still, among local parents at those schools there is support for

:04:17.:04:19.

the governing bodies. Some parents are even campaigning for them. They

:04:20.:04:23.

teach Arabic at this school, but they teach Latin at other schools,

:04:24.:04:27.

that is not a problem for them to teach Latin, it shouldn't be a

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problem if the parents want them to learn Arabic. 90% and above are

:04:33.:04:36.

Muslim people and Muslim children, it should be right to the school

:04:37.:04:41.

caters for the needs and requirements of the Muslim children.

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Staff at one of the schools, Park View, have fought back. Despite

:04:45.:04:49.

being an agnostic, this school closely reflects my values and the

:04:50.:04:52.

moral purpose that brought me to teaching, as it does those my

:04:53.:04:56.

colleagues from all faith backgrounds and none. For the

:04:57.:05:00.

community in which you now stand, as visitors covering our story, our

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school stands as a beacon of hope against isolation, poverty, drugs,

:05:09.:05:13.

crime, and yes, potential extremism. Park View is part of the solution,

:05:14.:05:18.

not part of the problem. There is a big policy problem, in a

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neighbourhood like this, how do you construct a school system which

:05:22.:05:27.

gives parents what they want, and makes sure that pupils don't get an

:05:28.:05:32.

insular education. We work hard to make sure our governing bodies were

:05:33.:05:35.

diverse, we were greatly supported by colleagues at Canary Wharf, where

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he where we put many senior industrialists on our board. It

:05:42.:05:45.

meant we had collective policies on issues like PE or school uniforms or

:05:46.:05:49.

long-term holidays. We worked together to create these lines so

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heads were able to say to whoever who was trying to change those

:05:55.:05:57.

positions, actually, no, this is the position of all of us and we will

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hold the line because it is for the good of the whole community. Labour

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have noted many of the schools at the centre of the stories are

:06:06.:06:08.

academies, that means they are regulated by the Department for

:06:09.:06:10.

Education, not local authorities. They think this illustrates a

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broader theme that this department doesn't have a handle on its

:06:15.:06:17.

schools. That is a view that seems to be shared by Theresa May,

:06:18.:06:20.

incidentally, in the letter that she wrote to Michael Gove last week.

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These schools do also get inspected by Ofsted, but, two of the four,

:06:26.:06:35.

Park View and one other -- Oldknow were previously rated outstanding,

:06:36.:06:38.

it would have been years before inspectors visited again. Michael

:06:39.:06:42.

Gove said the original inspections were wrong because the schools had

:06:43.:06:46.

too much time to prepare. We need to strengthen our inspection regime

:06:47.:06:50.

even further. The requirement to give notice of inspections clearly

:06:51.:06:54.

makes it more difficult to identify and to detect the danger signs. The

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Chief Inspector and I have argued in the past that no-notice inspections

:07:01.:07:04.

can help identify when pupils are at risk. I have asked him to consider

:07:05.:07:09.

the practicalities of moving to a situation where all schools know

:07:10.:07:13.

they may receive an unannounced inspection. So the education

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department is reviewing its own investigations and the City Council.

:07:19.:07:24.

Ofsted is considering its methods and the Home Secretary and he

:07:25.:07:26.

issedcation secretary have been fighting about whether Islamic

:07:27.:07:37.

methodism is on the road to Islamic extremism. Michael Gove said today

:07:38.:07:41.

he would make sure this sort of thing didn't happen again by making

:07:42.:07:44.

it possible for inspectors to pounce on schools with no warning. This

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apparently is a sign of his determination. When I went to see

:07:48.:07:51.

the Chief Inspector of schools earlier this evening, he painted a

:07:52.:07:54.

rather different picture. He started by telling me he stood by Ofsted's

:07:55.:08:01.

now much debated 2012 inspection of Park View School.

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I visited that school in my first few months at Ofsted. I visited Park

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View, I met with the headteacher there, it was an outstanding school

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because she was an outstanding leader. She has been undermined by

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the governors of that school who haven't understood their role. The

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job of governors is to set the strategic direction and to hold the

:08:24.:08:26.

headteacher to account. That is their job. And she told me, when I

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visited Birmingham, that she had been steadily undermined. She didn't

:08:33.:08:35.

want the sort of things that were happening in that school, and in

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other schools in Birmingham. She didn't want somebody with known

:08:40.:08:43.

extremist views to attend the assemblies. She didn't want a mat

:08:44.:08:47.

drays is a to be introduced into the personal, social education

:08:48.:08:50.

programme. She didn't want all those things. She had been steadily

:08:51.:08:55.

undermined to the point where the governors now are controlling that

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school on a day-to-day basis. That reveals something wrong with the

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system, any parent thinking about where their child should go to the

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school will look at the latest Ofsted report and says it is

:09:08.:09:11.

outstanding, they can't believe it could go so wrong so quickly? Where

:09:12.:09:16.

there is great turbulence in staffing and in terms of leadership,

:09:17.:09:20.

things can go badly wrong. The lessons of this situation in

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Birmingham is that you need to keep a really careful eye on schools,

:09:25.:09:28.

between inspections. Here you are, you work for central Government. You

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come in and there is nothing between you and the school, there ought to

:09:33.:09:36.

be someone looking at it every week shouldn't there? That is the job of

:09:37.:09:39.

the local authority, for those schools that are controlled by the

:09:40.:09:42.

local authority, and that's the job of the Department of Education, and

:09:43.:09:46.

the Education Funding Agency for academies and free schools. Do you

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say that the system for overseeing academies, for example, is

:09:55.:09:58.

inadequate? I'm saying it needs to be tightened up, and there needs to

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be a role for Ofsted to look at these schools in much greater depth

:10:04.:10:07.

and more regularly. I'm pleased with the Secretary of State's

:10:08.:10:10.

announcement today about unannounced inspection. It was something I

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called for two years ago when I first joined. I suspect we won't go

:10:14.:10:19.

for all schools to receive that. Why haven't you been doing that? I

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called for it and it has been rolled back. We need to do it now for some

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schools. It is after the event now? We need to do it and for those

:10:28.:10:32.

schools. You saw that two years ago and you didn't do it? That was

:10:33.:10:35.

something I discussed with the Secretary of State and we pulled

:10:36.:10:38.

back. You said to the Secretary of State you wanted to make unannounced

:10:39.:10:42.

inspections? Yes I did. Has the Secretary of State changed his mind?

:10:43.:10:45.

I think he has. Because when you put it to him beforer he said what? He

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said we need to look at this and listen to what head teachers are

:10:51.:10:53.

saying about needing to be in the school, prior to an inspection, so

:10:54.:10:58.

they can have a preliminary dialogue with the inspectors about how the

:10:59.:11:02.

inspection should be conducted. So we pulled back on that, so they have

:11:03.:11:08.

now just a few hours. On his say so? Yes. He told you no we are not going

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to do that? We had a robust discussion about it, and I'm really

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pleased that minds have been changed. That he has come to see

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your point of view? I hope so. How do you keep extremists out of the

:11:23.:11:28.

position of Governor of A school? At the moment anyone can be appointed

:11:29.:11:32.

as governors, there is no mandatory training for governors, that is

:11:33.:11:34.

something we have called for in my report. We need to think carefully

:11:35.:11:38.

about who is appointed and once we do appoint them make sure there are

:11:39.:11:42.

checks on them and make sure they are trained in what they have to do.

:11:43.:11:45.

Does the Secretary of State agree with you? Yes. Has he acted upon it?

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I hope he will do. You hope he will? He has executive power, he's the

:11:52.:11:53.

Secretary of State. Do you think that we need to pay any closer

:11:54.:11:58.

attention to the sort of things that are taught on the curriculum in some

:11:59.:12:04.

of these academies? My view is there should be much more regulation on

:12:05.:12:09.

what is caught in schools. It is wrong, for example, that children at

:12:10.:12:14.

key stage III, that is between 11-1 shouldn't have music -- 11-14,

:12:15.:12:19.

shouldn't have drama, art, music or the creative arts, that is wrong.

:12:20.:12:23.

Yet it is possible for governors to say we will get rid that have and

:12:24.:12:27.

music because it doesn't accord with our beliefs. I'm on the spectrum

:12:28.:12:30.

which says at the end of the spectrum that says there needs to be

:12:31.:12:36.

more prescription. Chris Cook is with us here, how significant is

:12:37.:12:40.

what was said there? It is very significant for three big reasons.

:12:41.:12:45.

The first is there he seemed to be suggesting that he had said to

:12:46.:12:50.

Michael Gove that he had wanted no-notice inspections some years

:12:51.:12:54.

ago. That puts Michael Gove, if he had refused that request on the side

:12:55.:12:59.

of the unions, which I think is a first ever on any education

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discussion! The second thing is he suggested that academies needed to

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have an obligation to offer a broader curriculum at the moment.

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That again is significant. That is not something we have heard about.

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Thirdly, he's also worried about what is known in the jargon as the

:13:15.:13:20.

"middle tier", do we have people looking after schools. This is a

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major flash point between the Conservative Party and Labour

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particularly. The education second, the shadow Education Secretary, only

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a question of time perhaps, the Shadow Education Secretary is here.

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Do you support the principle of unannounced visits? That is

:13:38.:13:40.

absolutely fine. You are in favour of them? That can play a part. What

:13:41.:13:44.

we in the Labour Party are more interested in is getting in there

:13:45.:13:48.

earlier than that. That is why, as Chris said, we want a middle tier,

:13:49.:13:52.

we want a local director of accountability and standards

:13:53.:13:57.

operating in a city like Birmingham, operating across local authorities

:13:58.:14:01.

to make sure we are addressing under performance, rather than waiting for

:14:02.:14:05.

it to wind its way up to a desk in Whitehall. What Birmingham shown is

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the coalition's model of schooling is not working. This is a seismic

:14:10.:14:13.

and important moment when we think about English schooling. Academies

:14:14.:14:17.

are your invention? The sponsored academy was a great Labour

:14:18.:14:21.

innovation, but we were clear that they should operate in a partnership

:14:22.:14:25.

with other schools, to be part of a collaborative network of schools.

:14:26.:14:28.

What we did in Government was the London Challenge, which raised

:14:29.:14:33.

standards across the capital, academies, maintained, control,

:14:34.:14:38.

voluntary aided all work together, rather than the isolated schools we

:14:39.:14:42.

have at the moment. Can you explain why it is your predesets or --

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predecessor Stephen Twigg said he sought the freedom academies have

:14:52.:14:55.

for all schools? We know autonomy works within a network of

:14:56.:15:00.

interrelationships within a school. Giving heads' hours is absolutely

:15:01.:15:04.

radio -- powers is absolutely right. But in partnership. I agree with Sir

:15:05.:15:10.

Michael Willshaw, Ofsted inspectors should have the right to look at the

:15:11.:15:14.

teaching of the curriculum. If they are not teaching a broad and

:15:15.:15:17.

balanced curriculum they should not get an outstanding. Some of the

:15:18.:15:21.

schools in Birmingham were narrowing the curriculum and getting rid of

:15:22.:15:25.

music. But why were they given an outstanding rating? They wouldn't

:15:26.:15:29.

get an outstanding rating if they were not teach ago broad and

:15:30.:15:35.

balanced curriculum. I think the important point was about heads,

:15:36.:15:39.

strong heads rather than an overpouring governing body. What

:15:40.:15:43.

about the British values that Michael Gove was talking about, do

:15:44.:15:48.

you support that? I am in support of that but I'm not sure if Michael

:15:49.:15:53.

Gove would know what that was if it bit him on the bum. It regards

:15:54.:15:58.

Blackadder as unpatriotic and takes books out of prison and To Kill A

:15:59.:16:04.

Mockingbird out of the curriculum. Do you want schools to instill

:16:05.:16:10.

British values? I want schools to instill values of inquiry, and those

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are in periods of history British values. We want them to teach

:16:15.:16:18.

democracy and the rule of law and peculiarism, but what I'm really

:16:19.:16:22.

interested in is getting young people in Birmingham career and

:16:23.:16:26.

college ready so when they come out of these schools they will lead

:16:27.:16:30.

successful and prosperous lives in a multicultural city like Birmingham.

:16:31.:16:33.

British values absolutely part of that. That is why citizenship,

:16:34.:16:38.

history, that should be part of a broad and balanced curriculum. Thank

:16:39.:16:43.

you very much. It so often seems an inevitable part of war, but if

:16:44.:16:47.

gathering in London has its way, rape and other sexual violence will

:16:48.:16:54.

no longer be an effect of war to be mentioned alongside bombs and

:16:55.:16:57.

artillery fire. The Foreign Office is holding a four-day meeting as a

:16:58.:17:04.

culmination of a two year operation to get the issue taken more

:17:05.:17:10.

seriously. It is much more easier said than done. A case study first,

:17:11.:17:14.

south Sudan has only been a country for three years, yet in that time

:17:15.:17:18.

suffered terrible violence, both Government and rebel forces are

:17:19.:17:22.

accused of sexual violence. We travelled from Unity State and the

:17:23.:17:31.

state capital into the remote Ler area and then into south Sudan's

:17:32.:17:38.

capital, Juba. Conflict has made this woman a refugee in her own

:17:39.:17:43.

land. Beneath the surface we find another sinister threat, rape en

:17:44.:17:48.

massive scale, not seen here before. In the world's newest state, in the

:17:49.:17:52.

grips of a military rebellion, women here are being sexually abused,

:17:53.:17:58.

singled out because of their tribe. Tens of thousands are in UN camps.

:17:59.:18:04.

Two ethnic groups now pitted against each other. ??FORCEDYELL Jane has

:18:05.:18:09.

broken a taboo by speaking of sexual assault. She cowered in the grass

:18:10.:18:16.

clutching her nine-year-old school as her sister-in-law was gang raped

:18:17.:18:20.

and then shot dead right in front of her. I was helpless. Both of them

:18:21.:18:26.

raped her, four of them all raped her, they are finishing and the

:18:27.:18:33.

other one into her. She was scream anything a loud voice, she screamed

:18:34.:18:38.

slowly and slowly until we lost her voice and was not able to scream

:18:39.:18:41.

again. They were arguing, the other one is saying let's finer her, the

:18:42.:18:48.

other one saying let's kill her, and the other one saying she is already

:18:49.:18:53.

gone. The other one released three bullets on her chest, she died on

:18:54.:19:01.

the spot. 31 women were allegedly raped there on that day. It happened

:19:02.:19:08.

in the town of Bentau in the north. Now it is deserted except for

:19:09.:19:12.

Government soldiers, they are backed by militia from Darfur who are

:19:13.:19:17.

blamed, but all sides are accused of sexual violence in south Sudan.

:19:18.:19:20.

We're going to a local radio station sexual violence in south Sudan.

:19:21.:19:28.

bald BentauFM, until recently in opposition hands. There is clear

:19:29.:19:31.

evidence that one rebel commander used the airways to incite young men

:19:32.:19:45.

to come and join them and to commit rape. We meet the director in

:19:46.:19:51.

charge, when the rebels burst in he was forced to hand over controls. We

:19:52.:19:55.

have obtained leaked testimonies that reveal that the rebels Claired

:19:56.:20:02.

on air that the rebels had raped women and they were pregnant with

:20:03.:20:05.

the babies. They called at young men to meet in the barracks to go to

:20:06.:20:16.

Dinka sites and rape women. A helicopter takes us further goes to

:20:17.:20:23.

Leer, one of the hard to reach areas, only now people emerging from

:20:24.:20:29.

hiding still in rebel hands. Here we discover women more prepared to show

:20:30.:20:43.

their faces, safety in numbers, despite the stigma. They are the

:20:44.:20:50.

prey of war. TRANSLATION: They cut off the little boys testicle, until

:20:51.:20:55.

they bled to death in front of us, when they were sure the children

:20:56.:20:58.

were dead, they divided us up into groups and took us under the tree,

:20:59.:21:03.

there they stole all of our money, and then they raped us. Just how

:21:04.:21:09.

many women have been raped in south Sudan is not clear. 24,000 are at

:21:10.:21:16.

risk, claim UN officials, and the cases we have uncovered are just the

:21:17.:21:22.

tip of the iceberg. At the hospital here you get a sense of the

:21:23.:21:27.

brutality of the past few months. This is the surgical department. Run

:21:28.:21:33.

by the charity Medecins Sans Frontieres, the place has been

:21:34.:21:37.

utterly destroyed. As you can see we have lost everything. Only bats

:21:38.:21:45.

remain. Here in the capital Juba peacekeepers are stretched, with

:21:46.:21:48.

every new wave of violence the camp swells and we don't have to go very

:21:49.:21:52.

far to find more evidence of sexual attacks. Emily here was bitten,

:21:53.:22:02.

beaten and gang raped in what appears to be an ethically targeted

:22:03.:22:06.

operation. Emily tell me what happened at each of these three

:22:07.:22:19.

trees? TRANSLATION: At the first three we were ambushed by armed men

:22:20.:22:22.

hiding in the undergrowth. They stopped us and ordered us to put

:22:23.:22:28.

down our bags. Then they took us to the second tree where they searched

:22:29.:22:33.

us. They groped us, reaching into our bras, where we keep our money.

:22:34.:22:41.

Along with our mobile phones. Then they led us to the third tree where

:22:42.:22:48.

they raped us. From this watch tower here you can see in the distance the

:22:49.:22:53.

cluster of trees where the gang rape allegedly took place. We have

:22:54.:22:56.

discovered at least seven other women who claim they were sexually

:22:57.:23:00.

assaulted in exactly the same spot, on the periphery of the camp, right

:23:01.:23:05.

under the noses of UN peacekeepers. Under a revised UN mandate,

:23:06.:23:10.

protecting civilians is now the top priority, are they letting women

:23:11.:23:14.

down? There have been incidents that have happened right outside our

:23:15.:23:17.

gates and we have had to make horrible choices. I will never have

:23:18.:23:21.

enough resources and ultimately we must remember this is not the

:23:22.:23:25.

international communities' problem to fix, this is the south Sudanese

:23:26.:23:29.

problem to fix. They have to reconcile and come together and

:23:30.:23:32.

build their country and make sure the population, whoever it is, is

:23:33.:23:36.

safe. There are very real fears that women could be denied justice for

:23:37.:23:43.

the sake of peace. The authorities say they will act on evidence. In

:23:44.:23:47.

order to resolve this problem in a modern and civilised way and to go

:23:48.:23:54.

to the modern court someone has to come out of the silence. And they

:23:55.:24:02.

have to put their case and we are letting them know we will

:24:03.:24:05.

understand. Sex is a weapon of war and deemed a crime against humanity.

:24:06.:24:10.

But with more than a million people here trapped in the cares of

:24:11.:24:14.

conflict, securing the means to survive is likely to Dom -- dominate

:24:15.:24:28.

for some time to come. My guests are with me, one who survived an attack

:24:29.:24:32.

by a so called death squad. And we have an activist who survived a

:24:33.:24:37.

sexual assault in Tahrir Square in Cairo. You are both victims of

:24:38.:24:42.

sexual assault, how much hope do you attach to this conference? Well,

:24:43.:24:50.

we're here in great number. The Noble Women's Initiative, which I

:24:51.:24:55.

chair, there are six women who have received the prize and work with

:24:56.:24:58.

women's organisations around the world working for sustainable peace.

:24:59.:25:02.

We took the lead in creating an international campaign to stop rape

:25:03.:25:04.

and gender violence in war. The point is to bring Non-Governmental

:25:05.:25:09.

Organisations together round the world and press Governments to do

:25:10.:25:12.

what they should do any way. What you are hoping to do is to make

:25:13.:25:19.

something, sexual violence a recognisably different category of

:25:20.:25:25.

offence in an environment in which killing other people is the way it

:25:26.:25:28.

happens, that is what happens in war? Well it is true but that is

:25:29.:25:38.

different from rape because the victim of rape has to live and

:25:39.:25:43.

assume responsibility towards society, towards kids, towards the

:25:44.:25:48.

economy of the country. This is almost impossible with the stigma

:25:49.:25:52.

and the reprecussions of such attacks. Part of the problem is what

:25:53.:25:59.

happens in every society in the world when a woman is raped or

:26:00.:26:05.

sexually assaulted. The immediate focus is on what did she do?

:26:06.:26:10.

sexually assaulted. The immediate dressed like a tramp? Instead of

:26:11.:26:13.

where it should be, on the perpetrator. The person who raped

:26:14.:26:17.

the woman is the person we should be looking at, not the woman who was

:26:18.:26:22.

raped. Part of what we want to see happen at this ministerial level

:26:23.:26:29.

conference is states taking concrete actions for prevention, protection

:26:30.:26:34.

and prosecution. Because a raped woman as we have seen in South

:26:35.:26:39.

Sudan, may I just finish. Go on. Thank you, a raped woman is not just

:26:40.:26:45.

a raped woman, it affects her family, if you rape enough woman in

:26:46.:26:50.

a village you destroy the social fabric of that village. Isn't there

:26:51.:26:56.

a problem here, of course it is a noble objective, but when you look

:26:57.:27:00.

at that report from South Sudan here, the men who conducted those

:27:01.:27:02.

rapes are not at this conference, here, the men who conducted those

:27:03.:27:11.

it at all? But maybe the ones who are responsible for giving orders

:27:12.:27:18.

for these men to hear, maybe the system would allow fair trials they

:27:19.:27:25.

will have to be part of it. I think part of the problem though is

:27:26.:27:29.

thinking it only happens over there. Over there we're going to help those

:27:30.:27:34.

poor women over there who are raped in conflict. I'm sorry the

:27:35.:27:38.

secretary-general's report I think in 2011 on sexual violence, one out

:27:39.:27:42.

of every three women in the world will at some point in their life

:27:43.:27:47.

suffer rape or sexual assault. So hello, we have to put this in a

:27:48.:27:52.

continuum. And in my military, in the United States of America, rape

:27:53.:27:58.

and sexual violence is rampant. And it is only recently that it is being

:27:59.:28:03.

addressed properly in my country. So trying to pretend it is only them

:28:04.:28:09.

over there is a bit ludicrous. I was not trying to suggest it was only

:28:10.:28:13.

women somewhere else, merely that those people responsible for it are

:28:14.:28:17.

not at the conference? Well that's not exactly true, because the

:28:18.:28:21.

militaries in those countries engage in rape as well. It is not just the

:28:22.:28:27.

rebel forces. And hopefully the Governments who come here will

:28:28.:28:32.

outline a plan of action by which they begin to address these

:28:33.:28:37.

problems. And we're here to state what we think should happen and

:28:38.:28:42.

we're here to tell them that we will not turn away and listen to

:28:43.:28:46.

beautiful words if they are not turned into action because beautiful

:28:47.:28:50.

words are irrelevant. Are you optimistic that there will be any

:28:51.:28:56.

kind of initiative as a consequence to this? I'm very optimistic,

:28:57.:29:01.

because I think that the sheer fact that we have this summit means that

:29:02.:29:07.

those countries, 150 countries, participating do acknowledge that

:29:08.:29:10.

there is a problem. This is just one great step ahead. Because many

:29:11.:29:17.

Governments for years haven't acknowledged those attacks do take

:29:18.:29:26.

place. I think that also the fact that it puts the Governments, the

:29:27.:29:29.

Government representatives together with the NGOs, this will create

:29:30.:29:34.

dialogue that definitely would have a very positive outcome. Thank you

:29:35.:29:40.

both very much indeed. Now regular viewers will of course be familiar

:29:41.:29:49.

with this, the formula for the Becenstein Authropy for the black

:29:50.:29:56.

hole. The existence, though defies the laws of if Is sicks was first

:29:57.:30:01.

surmised centuries ago. Suppose black holes didn't exist, that is

:30:02.:30:06.

the potential thinking of a University of Cambridge physicist,

:30:07.:30:10.

imagine it, no region of space time for which gravity prevents anything

:30:11.:30:14.

escaping. We will discuss that with her in a minute.

:30:15.:30:22.

Black holes are some of the strangest and most mysterious

:30:23.:30:26.

objects in the universe. The theory is they are born from the death

:30:27.:30:32.

throess of massive stars that explode and collapse. In less than a

:30:33.:30:35.

second every last bit of matter is crushed down to almost nothing. But

:30:36.:30:42.

despite being tiny these incredibly dense objects exert a massive

:30:43.:30:46.

gravitational pull. Like a swimmer trying to escape a waterfall, there

:30:47.:30:51.

is an invisible line where the water rushes down faster than you can

:30:52.:30:57.

swim, a point of no return, known as the "event horizon". But in black

:30:58.:31:01.

hole it is not water that is flowing in, it is space itself. And nothing

:31:02.:31:05.

can travel fast enough to escape it, not even light. That is why black

:31:06.:31:14.

holes are completely invisible. Einstein predicted the existence of

:31:15.:31:19.

these cosmic oddities in his theory of relativity in 1916. Even though

:31:20.:31:24.

they can't be seen, most scientists are certain they exist. They have

:31:25.:31:28.

seen stars being literally ripped apart as they spiral into blackness.

:31:29.:31:32.

But black holes aren't just weird, they are an embarrassment. Because

:31:33.:31:37.

at the bottom lies something that no physicist can explain, a point of

:31:38.:31:40.

infinite density and gravity. physicist can explain, a point of

:31:41.:31:43.

singularity. This is where everything that falls into the black

:31:44.:31:49.

hole ends up, crushed out of existence, gone forever. But

:31:50.:31:52.

according to the laws of physics, that is just not possible, stuff

:31:53.:32:01.

can't just disappear. In the 1970s Steven hawking came up with an idea,

:32:02.:32:07.

some material could leak out, it is called Hawking radiation, it has

:32:08.:32:11.

never been detected, and how could this come out when everything else

:32:12.:32:16.

gets sucked in. These are the issues keeping physicists up at night.

:32:17.:32:20.

Decades of hard thinking from the finest minds have yet to solve the

:32:21.:32:26.

paradox. Some are thinking the unthinkable, maybe block holes don't

:32:27.:32:31.

forget. The author of the paper of the University of North Carolina of

:32:32.:32:36.

Cambridge is here, also with us is a reader and theoretical physics in

:32:37.:32:42.

Imperial College London. What effect did it have upon you to realise you

:32:43.:32:48.

may have disproved such a commonly held conviction about the nature of

:32:49.:32:53.

the universe? It was very nerve racking of course, although not a

:32:54.:32:57.

surprise. The history of black holes versus no black holes goes back to

:32:58.:33:03.

at least as far as Eddington in the 1930s. In 1935 he had this argument

:33:04.:33:10.

with a scientist about to show there are black holes, that very massive

:33:11.:33:15.

stars collapse under their own gravity into one point in the

:33:16.:33:20.

centre. That story goes back to later on it goes back to Oppenheimer

:33:21.:33:30.

and Willer, and the singularity theorem, and here we are now. What

:33:31.:33:34.

are the implications of your conviction? I would think if this

:33:35.:33:42.

result holds and the calculation was done under a series of arocks makes,

:33:43.:33:53.

so -- productsations -- approxima tickets ons, and if it turns out

:33:54.:33:58.

there are no event horizons or massive stars, there is a place

:33:59.:34:03.

where quantum mechanics is as important as the Einstein's theory

:34:04.:34:08.

of gravity. What do you think of the implications of this calculation?

:34:09.:34:12.

The impoliticcations f it turns out to be confirmed, would be very

:34:13.:34:19.

dramatic, it would be a real surprise. It would be a revolution

:34:20.:34:23.

wouldn't it? It would be a revolution in terms of people who

:34:24.:34:26.

think about black holes, certainly. It would be very revolutionary, one

:34:27.:34:32.

of the reasons is that one of the cherished views we have is when

:34:33.:34:36.

black hole forms we don't need to understand quantum mechanics to

:34:37.:34:41.

understand how the event horizon develops. That is the surface out of

:34:42.:34:45.

which you can never escape. So we, up to this point, were fairly

:34:46.:34:51.

convinced that standard Einstein's classical theory, ignoring quantum

:34:52.:34:56.

mechanics works there. We understand if you went inside the block hole at

:34:57.:35:00.

mechanics works there. We understand some point, you have to worry about

:35:01.:35:04.

mechanics works there. We understand quantum mechanics with singularity.

:35:05.:35:07.

Where as Laura's paper claims otherwise. You don't believe it do

:35:08.:35:15.

you? I have not had enough to study it, it was in my e-mail this

:35:16.:35:18.

morning, and it is a technical work and I would need to go through the

:35:19.:35:22.

calculations in detail. It is absolutely surprising, given results

:35:23.:35:27.

in the past, but we are all hoping for a surprise. Are you worried it

:35:28.:35:35.

may not be proved by others? I am worried that once I and the

:35:36.:35:40.

collaborator in Cambridge have dropped the assumptions that were

:35:41.:35:44.

made in this first part of the work that we will challenge ourselves.

:35:45.:35:48.

But having spent the last five months working intensively and

:35:49.:35:53.

focussed on this problem alone, I do think that the results will hold up.

:35:54.:36:03.

How much do you think this sort of discovery, this sort

:36:04.:36:06.

How much do you think this sort of black hole, I mean no-one has

:36:07.:36:08.

actually seen a black hole, black hole, I mean no-one has

:36:09.:36:12.

they? No-one has fallen into one that we know of. But to say people

:36:13.:36:17.

haven't seen a black hole is probably wrong. By very definition

:36:18.:36:21.

of a black hole light can't escape from it. So you will never see a

:36:22.:36:26.

black hole directly. But there have been many indirect observations of

:36:27.:36:29.

black holes. But we are at the limits here of human ambition and

:36:30.:36:36.

human capacity, aren't we? I would say to understand astro physical

:36:37.:36:42.

black holes in our universe we are not at all at the limits.

:36:43.:36:45.

Observations in the last few decades have made remarkable progress. We

:36:46.:36:52.

now know at the centre of our Milky Way is a black hole a few million

:36:53.:36:58.

times the mass of our sun. We are pretty certain about that fact. What

:36:59.:37:02.

happens when you fall in and quantum mechanics becomes an issue is more

:37:03.:37:07.

complicated. But the exist of the objects... I should probably clarify

:37:08.:37:11.

what you mean, usually we associate the black holes with the existence

:37:12.:37:18.

of a singularity at the centre known in could lobingism as the "edge of

:37:19.:37:23.

space time itself", that translates into it is so exotic we don't

:37:24.:37:27.

understand what happens at that point. We are at the limit? The

:37:28.:37:33.

second feature associated with black holes versus massive stars is

:37:34.:37:39.

something known as an event horizon. Which is a sort of boundary, not

:37:40.:37:48.

physical, but a point, a location in the space outside the black hole

:37:49.:37:52.

where not even light can escape. So whenever an object has a singularity

:37:53.:37:58.

at the centre and an event horizon outside we call that a black hole.

:37:59.:38:04.

What my work has shown is once you include Hawking radiation in the

:38:05.:38:08.

interior of the star collapsing into a black hole, and that is the key

:38:09.:38:13.

point, Hawking Radiation is produced by the collapsing star, the one

:38:14.:38:17.

about to collapse into a back hole, once you include that radiation in

:38:18.:38:22.

the interior of that star, that star will never reach zero size and claps

:38:23.:38:27.

all the way to singularity. It will still be a massive star, the same

:38:28.:38:30.

mass that the black hole would have had, it will have the same

:38:31.:38:34.

gravitational forces that we normally associate with indirect

:38:35.:38:38.

observations of black holes, but it won't have an event hor rise on or

:38:39.:38:44.

singularity. Rather exciting isn't it? Very exciting.

:38:45.:38:54.

The hugely popular comedian Rik Mayall was found dead at his home

:38:55.:39:01.

today. There was there were no suspicion circumstances, he just

:39:02.:39:09.

died, "selfish bastards" said Ade Edmundson of his friend. This seemed

:39:10.:39:14.

to be man that expressed an entire period of British history. Flash by

:39:15.:39:23.

name, Flash by nature. Where have you been? Where haven't I been?

:39:24.:39:32.

Would have. With timing second to none Rik Mayall burst own to our TV

:39:33.:39:37.

screens, everyone has a favourite character, Lord Flashheart may be

:39:38.:39:44.

yours. Thanks bridesmaid, like the beard. Gives me something to hang on

:39:45.:39:49.

to! But part of his comedy genius was he created so much and so many

:39:50.:39:57.

characters. Most of my work is based in Redditch, sometimes the library.

:39:58.:40:01.

Kevin Turvey was an early creation, the roving reporter from Redditch

:40:02.:40:05.

that lived with his mum and investigated very little. Fish that

:40:06.:40:12.

are like cod, whales, that is the fish not the place. A spokesman for

:40:13.:40:18.

Britain's youth now. But it was this obnoxious anarchist that British

:40:19.:40:21.

youth audiences took to their hearts. My name is Rik. You put that

:40:22.:40:27.

back, that is my personal property. You just said all property is dead.

:40:28.:40:32.

It is. So I'm nicking it. Stop, thief, thief. His collaboration with

:40:33.:40:40.

Ade Edmundson who he met at university changed a generation.

:40:41.:40:44.

They were part of a generation who took on the establishment, known as

:40:45.:40:50.

alternative comedy. Rik is a banker, signed the rest of the club. No that

:40:51.:40:57.

was an in-joke we had in my form. They were prepared to take on the

:40:58.:41:00.

establishment and be riotous in the way they performed their comedy, to

:41:01.:41:04.

be very, very bold. In the 80s there was perhaps less difference --

:41:05.:41:11.

deference then, and it divided people, it was not a defer relation

:41:12.:41:17.

show. Their famous appearance on university challenge too. Who has

:41:18.:41:22.

been tampering with my question cards. It was me, it was me. All the

:41:23.:41:29.

anarchy you saw was always very well prepared, with the sort of anarchy

:41:30.:41:37.

that takes six months right. There was a lovely moment where he wanted

:41:38.:41:43.

me to take my teeth out as Thatcher and I said I think I can make my

:41:44.:41:48.

mouth looks a if it hadn't got any teeth in, because I could do my

:41:49.:41:53.

grandmother. I said Mrs Thatcher would end up talking like that, he

:41:54.:41:57.

loved it and asked to put more in. I want to be true to the spirit of

:41:58.:42:02.

Thatcherism. All you care about is number one. I thought that is what

:42:03.:42:06.

it is all about. Of course it is. He had great eyes for a comedian. When

:42:07.:42:10.

he was doing Kevin, where he sat on the chair and stared straight into

:42:11.:42:16.

the camera, he was like Ronnie cosh bet on as -- Corbett on acid. You

:42:17.:42:21.

could see into his head. You could see the electrical thunderstorm

:42:22.:42:25.

going off in his head. And that would come straight down the camera

:42:26.:42:28.

and very few comedians have been able to do that strike. That is why

:42:29.:42:35.

he was so brilliant on Jackanory. I'm going shopping in the village

:42:36.:42:38.

George's mother said on a Saturday morning, be a good boy and don't get

:42:39.:42:44.

up to mischief. Rik Mayall was found dead at his home this lunchtime, he

:42:45.:42:52.

was just 56. The Times columnist and devoted man Caitlin Moran is here.

:42:53.:42:59.

What was the appeal? I started watching him at ten. What I

:43:00.:43:03.

connected to was he was incredibly childlike f you look at everything

:43:04.:43:07.

he is doing, it is the state of hyperenergy and unself-consciousness

:43:08.:43:11.

that you have when you are a kid, you are screaming in a room and

:43:12.:43:14.

shouting rude words, you are in love with a rude word, and there is

:43:15.:43:19.

nothing funnier or more clever than using that. He still had that at 30

:43:20.:43:25.

and ho. It is that thing -- and 40. It is that thing I'm alive, I have a

:43:26.:43:31.

face and can say the word "poo". He's billed as an alternative

:43:32.:43:35.

comedian, alternative to what? There was an amazing intelligence there.

:43:36.:43:39.

There is a saying about how comedy is what you have when you have

:43:40.:43:42.

intelligence left to burn. Obviously we know him for silly faces and

:43:43.:43:49.

saying "poo" a lot. Things like ottom was based on Waiting

:43:50.:43:51.

saying "poo" a lot. Things like Godot. They had done it in theatre,

:43:52.:43:56.

they said what if we do a version that is ruder and sillier and

:43:57.:43:59.

funnier. He was constantly on that is ruder and sillier and

:44:00.:44:03.

One of the greatest cameos in a sitcom is his Lord Flashheart in

:44:04.:44:08.

Blackadder. He bursts through the doors. In the run through he didn't

:44:09.:44:12.

do it, he walked through all of his blocking. When he went for the take

:44:13.:44:16.

he explodes through the doors. You watch the cast, Miranda Richardson,

:44:17.:44:22.

Steven Fry and others, they don't know what hit them. They are like

:44:23.:44:26.

what is going on here. If you ask people about Blackadder, people

:44:27.:44:29.

think he was one of the main characters. But he was in the series

:44:30.:44:32.

for less than five minutes, but made such an impact. There was an

:44:33.:44:36.

interesting conversation on Facebook about how different he was to most

:44:37.:44:39.

British comedians, he does a thing a lot of American comedians do, people

:44:40.:44:45.

like Jack Black, you come in the room and own it. What are you going

:44:46.:44:51.

to do, let as play, English characters are characterful and

:44:52.:44:55.

playing with words, he could do that as well, he came in and owned the

:44:56.:44:58.

room like a rock star. That time that he appeared in that school of

:44:59.:45:04.

comedy, the 1980s, this is, you know, it was a

:45:05.:45:07.

comedy, the 1980s, this is, you otherwise? He was great for that. In

:45:08.:45:08.

the Young Ones, it otherwise? He was great for that. In

:45:09.:45:13.

now, and I speak as someone who likes to be funny but likes to write

:45:14.:45:16.

about politics, it is very difficult to write about politics and try to

:45:17.:45:19.

be honest and passionate about it without sounding like Rik did in the

:45:20.:45:26.

Young One, "down with Thatcher's junta", that great childlike, I have

:45:27.:45:32.

great dungries. When I watch people talking about young people talking

:45:33.:45:37.

about politics, I think you need to watch The Young Ones. The naivity he

:45:38.:45:43.

had as well, alternative comedy at that time, people would say what is

:45:44.:45:47.

theth the alternative to, it was the childlike and teenage view of the

:45:48.:45:53.

world we hadn't had before. He was perpetually as stoppished by the --

:45:54.:45:58.

astonished by the world. I never saw anyone who enjoyed having a face

:45:59.:46:04.

more than him. He was beautiful in repose, but he was egoless about it,

:46:05.:46:10.

gurning and posing and throwing himself on the floor. He always had

:46:11.:46:15.

five more muscles in his face. It was young people speaking to young

:46:16.:46:19.

people? I have watched a lot of celebrity deaths on Twitter, Amy

:46:20.:46:25.

Winehouse, and Elizabeth tailor, I have never seen -- Taylor. I have

:46:26.:46:30.

never seen more love outpouring. They loved him from Bottom,

:46:31.:46:36.

Jackanory, which he was amazing in, Drop Dead Fred, it was we watched

:46:37.:46:41.

him as kids and saw someone like you on television, that is COMPLEEKT

:46:42.:46:44.

what you would do is smash a television over someone's head and

:46:45.:46:49.

say the word "poo", and gurn as much as possible and eggs ployed. --

:46:50.:46:55.

explode. Who are his heirs? It is difficult, in terms of charisma,

:46:56.:46:59.

watch someone... It is very difficult. The childlike quality

:47:00.:47:04.

that Eddie Izzard brings to stuff and that rock 'n' roll thing. I

:47:05.:47:09.

don't know, it is odd, his career was cut short, we thought he would

:47:10.:47:14.

be a Hollywood star after Drop Dead Fred and it all stopped there. That

:47:15.:47:18.

is why people took it personally when they heard he died, he was

:47:19.:47:21.

still a British secret. Americans don't know who he is. There is an

:47:22.:47:26.

amazing warmth towards him? Yes. Again, if you are a kid watching

:47:27.:47:30.

that, it was one of the programmes you weren't allowed to watch scat

:47:31.:47:34.

young Ones or Bottom, you sneak up and watch it and this is your secret

:47:35.:47:39.

and you feel a kindred spirit watching it. For me he was a massive

:47:40.:47:49.

role model as a wonky young girl, talking them about being complete

:47:50.:47:53.

outsiders and loners and loving each other, I thought that is a role

:47:54.:47:58.

model in the way that girls on Sweet Valley High and Dynasty are not.

:47:59.:48:04.

Thank you. That is all we have time for tonight, there is lots more on

:48:05.:48:06.

tomorrow. Good night.

:48:07.:48:12.

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