10/06/2014 Newsnight


10/06/2014

News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including Iraq's third city falls, why the Ofsted boss ate his words, rape trials in the Congo, the US Taliban POW goes home and FIFA corruption.


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Islamist insurgents seize one of the biggest cities in Iraq, and

:00:09.:00:13.

Washington declares they now represent a threat to the entire

:00:14.:00:17.

region. Government forces simply fled. Can the administration for

:00:18.:00:21.

which so many western soldiers died hold the line against Al-Qaeda's

:00:22.:00:26.

allies. In the Congo the victims of rape by soldiers get their day in

:00:27.:00:30.

court. We follow the efforts to bring the perpetrators of sexual

:00:31.:00:32.

violence to justice. And remember this? You said to the

:00:33.:00:48.

Secretary of State I want to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did.

:00:49.:00:55.

And what did he say? The Chief Inspector of schools unspeaks what

:00:56.:01:01.

he tried to say yesterday. And fish? This is my only first dinner

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tonight. Is this a crime against animals, do you care whether or not

:01:06.:01:10.

the fish on your plate felt pain as it died?

:01:11.:01:18.

It the Iraq War, which cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of

:01:19.:01:22.

people was fought to overthrow a dictator and to make the country

:01:23.:01:26.

safe for democracy. Today, 11 years after that war began, control of one

:01:27.:01:31.

of the largest cities in the country fell to a group linked to Al-Qaeda.

:01:32.:01:39.

Police and soldiers in moment sul, cap -- Mosul, simply ran away. The

:01:40.:01:44.

rebels are said to have released a thousand or so people from prison.

:01:45.:01:55.

Militants, Sunni rebels are in control of one of Iraq's biggest

:01:56.:01:58.

cities. In many places the security fors just melted away, leaving

:01:59.:02:02.

uniforms and abandoned vehicles behind. It is a body blow to the

:02:03.:02:09.

Shia-led Baghdad Government. I think they are the most significant events

:02:10.:02:13.

to have taken place in Iraq, certainly since the height of the

:02:14.:02:18.

Civil War in 2007. I wouldn't imagine betting they are even more

:02:19.:02:20.

significant than those difficult days as well. What has happened in

:02:21.:02:35.

Mos sum In Mosul is unprecedented. Iraqi security forces melting away,

:02:36.:02:40.

running away, and the political elite in Baghdad not knowing what to

:02:41.:02:45.

do. For many months the western cities of Fallujah and Ramadi have

:02:46.:02:51.

been in open revolt, half a million people reportedly fled as a result.

:02:52.:02:58.

Then Isis and other Jihadist groups started moving into Nineva province,

:02:59.:03:06.

freeing nearly 3,000 prisoners in jail. Air strikes followed but

:03:07.:03:09.

Government forces started to collapse, today the Jew haddists

:03:10.:03:15.

extended their control over the banks of the tigress taking the

:03:16.:03:23.

major airport and other bases. Over 100,000 people fled, these scenes

:03:24.:03:36.

were taken. Victory for Isis extends across to Syria. Imagine you are an

:03:37.:03:41.

insurgent group and take over a whole city, the Central Bank of the

:03:42.:03:48.

city, the weapons, the bases, everything there, that will, Isis

:03:49.:03:55.

was really losing in Syria, they were limited to a tiny little place

:03:56.:04:01.

on the northern edge of Syria and now taking over Mosul, that is a

:04:02.:04:08.

huge boost for Isis. It isn't just that the Jihadists of Isis have

:04:09.:04:14.

captured guns calm glory, they have taken an economic centre and

:04:15.:04:17.

strengthened their position in Syria too. With much of Iraq slipping

:04:18.:04:21.

under the control of Sunni Jihadists, and the Government's

:04:22.:04:26.

inability to export oil and generate revenue now being called into

:04:27.:04:28.

question, there is a real chance of Iraq being dismembered and the whole

:04:29.:04:34.

issue becoming a major international security problem. So how did the

:04:35.:04:40.

Prime Minister, re-elected just two months ago, get into this situation?

:04:41.:04:46.

He has pursued rather aggressive politics of sectarianism, since 2006

:04:47.:04:52.

and increasingly so since he became Prime Minister. He has marginalised

:04:53.:04:56.

the Sunni-Arab community failed to make good on promises made to them

:04:57.:05:01.

by the Americans during the surge and the awakening of the Sunnis that

:05:02.:05:04.

saw the last Al-Qaeda insurgency end. And now what we see is a

:05:05.:05:10.

marginalised, disenfranchised people, not wanting to engage with

:05:11.:05:15.

the Government in Iraq, and into which the message of Isis seems to

:05:16.:05:20.

be extremely strong. America has already said it will give more help

:05:21.:05:25.

to Iraq's security forces, but the shortcomings exposed today show it

:05:26.:05:31.

will take a lot more than a few Humvees or guns to turn this around.

:05:32.:05:39.

Mr Malaki may have to make use of Shia militias as the battle

:05:40.:05:43.

threatens to spread to Baghdad itself.

:05:44.:05:45.

The Chief Inspector of schools wasn't quite made to eat the words

:05:46.:05:50.

he made on Newsnight tonight, nothing so crude, but a bit of

:05:51.:05:54.

clarification, after he seemed to say that the Education Secretary,

:05:55.:05:59.

Michael Gove, rejected the idea of unannounced inspections of schools

:06:00.:06:02.

when it was put to him two years ago. Today the minister's office

:06:03.:06:08.

denied flat out that he had stopped the idea. Sir Michael Willshaw said

:06:09.:06:15.

later on today it was he who decided not to go ahead with the plan. This

:06:16.:06:19.

is what he said last night. We need do it. You saw it two years ago and

:06:20.:06:23.

you didn't do it? That was something I discussed with the Secretary of

:06:24.:06:27.

State and we pulled back. You said to the Secretary of State you want

:06:28.:06:30.

to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did. Has the Secretary of State

:06:31.:06:34.

changed his mind? I think he has. When you put it to him before, he

:06:35.:06:38.

said what? He said we need to look at this and listen to what head

:06:39.:06:41.

teachers are saying about needing to be in the school, prior to an

:06:42.:06:45.

inspection, so they can have a preliminary dialogue with the

:06:46.:06:50.

inspectors about how the inspection should be conducted. So we pulled

:06:51.:06:53.

back on that, so they have now just a few hours. On his say so? Yes. He

:06:54.:06:58.

told you no we're not going to do that? We had a robust discussion

:06:59.:07:03.

about it, and I'm really pleased that minds have been changed. But he

:07:04.:07:07.

has come to see your point of view? I hope so.

:07:08.:07:12.

Now Emily has been speaking to the major players today and has tried to

:07:13.:07:17.

untangle who really said what? This is the row that keeps on

:07:18.:07:29.

giving. There was a furious outburst from the Department of Education

:07:30.:07:32.

after last night, and they flatly denied that Michael Gove had been

:07:33.:07:36.

the roadblock in this, and said that Sir Michael Willshaw had

:07:37.:07:40.

misremembered. I was given a blow-by-blow account by two of

:07:41.:07:45.

Michael Gove's advisers at the time of exactly what happened, it dates

:07:46.:07:50.

back to 2007 when they said Mr Gove was in favour of this. A no-notice

:07:51.:07:55.

inspection, a flash inspection with no notice of preamble to the school.

:07:56.:08:02.

He was in favour in 2009 and 2011 in office, articles to support there.

:08:03.:08:08.

Michael Willshaw came into Ofsted in 2012 and immediately appeared to

:08:09.:08:12.

support the idea of the no-notice inspection, the two were singing

:08:13.:08:16.

from the same hymn sheet. Three months into the job according to

:08:17.:08:20.

Michael Gove's advisers, Sir Michael Willshaw lost his nerve. He had a

:08:21.:08:24.

bad run in with the press, he had lots of interviews that hadn't

:08:25.:08:27.

worked out for him, he didn't want to make an enemy of the head

:08:28.:08:31.

teachers, he lost his bottle and said he didn't want to go ahead with

:08:32.:08:35.

it, Michael Gove went and addressed the head teachers' conference and

:08:36.:08:39.

broke this news, perhaps unfortunately, because it wasn't

:08:40.:08:43.

really his place to be doing it, and he used very incendiary language,

:08:44.:08:50.

talking about Ofsted as the "Spanish inquisition". He really slagged them

:08:51.:08:55.

off, it got Sir Michael Willshaw furious, even though he confirmed a

:08:56.:08:59.

few weeks later that he was dropping the no-notice policy. Briefly

:09:00.:09:03.

Ofsted's response? This is what is so curious, this afternoon the

:09:04.:09:07.

Department of Education put out a press release that put a lid on the

:09:08.:09:11.

whole thing. They said the Chief Inspector has confirmed the

:09:12.:09:15.

education secretary did not ask Ofsted to halt its plans. Seems very

:09:16.:09:20.

clear. So I called Ofsted and said are you retracting those words? No,

:09:21.:09:26.

they are not I was told. Were they apologising or stepping down, no

:09:27.:09:31.

they are not. Why did they sign up to the press release? They said

:09:32.:09:35.

there is no point pick a fight over tittle tattle on a policy on which

:09:36.:09:39.

we broadly agree. They just thought it looked more grown up to let it

:09:40.:09:44.

go. But they are not saying that Sir Michael Willshaw was wrong or

:09:45.:09:49.

backing down, it is over to you and everyone else who is telling the

:09:50.:09:52.

truth here. The Hollywood star, Angelina Jolie, made a passionate

:09:53.:09:56.

speech today about the crime of sexual violence against women in

:09:57.:10:00.

war. Speaking at the International Gathering, organised by the Foreign

:10:01.:10:04.

Office here in London. She said we all had to recognise that there is

:10:05.:10:08.

no shame in being a survivor, the shame attaches only to those who

:10:09.:10:13.

perpetrate rape. It is not, she said, an inevitable part of war.

:10:14.:10:18.

William Hague likened the campaign of sexual violence to the fight

:10:19.:10:22.

against slavery. How to bring the rule of law to the conduct of war is

:10:23.:10:25.

a challenge everywhere. It is very tough work, but not without the

:10:26.:10:30.

occasional success. Fiona Lloyd Davies reports from the Democratic

:10:31.:10:36.

Republic of Congo. This is not Afghanistan or Somalia,

:10:37.:10:42.

it is eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. These women are testifying in

:10:43.:10:51.

a landmark trial. They are veiled for their own projection, the

:10:52.:10:57.

defendants are soldiers from the Congolese Army, accused of mass rape

:10:58.:11:03.

and looting. 39 soldiers and officers up to the rank of

:11:04.:11:07.

Lieutenant Colonel are on trial in a military court. Over 1,000 victims

:11:08.:11:11.

of rape and looting have been recorded. Yet is justice being done?

:11:12.:11:41.

An estimated one. Eight million women have been raped in their

:11:42.:11:47.

lifetime in Congo. Despite the laws against sexual violence being

:11:48.:11:53.

revised in 2006, justice has never been taken seriously as a deterrent

:11:54.:11:59.

here, and a culture of impunity has prevailed, until now. Nadine is an

:12:00.:12:10.

associate of a law firm in the regional capital, Goma. She is one

:12:11.:12:15.

of the prosecuting lawyers in what could be an historic case.

:12:16.:12:47.

Today Nadine is going with a psychologist to the town where the

:12:48.:12:56.

Congolese Army raped at least 76 women and children in November 2012.

:12:57.:13:01.

The area is still heavily militarised, and there are many

:13:02.:13:06.

thousands of disbanded militia. Both the witnesses and lawyers have been

:13:07.:13:08.

threatened and intimidated. This was an ordinary market town,

:13:09.:13:46.

but the local people will never forget that night when several

:13:47.:13:49.

thousand Congolese Army troops arrived. They had been ordered to

:13:50.:13:53.

withdraw from Goma, leaving their own families vulnerable to the

:13:54.:13:59.

invading M 23 rebels. Angry and frustrated the soldiers punished the

:14:00.:14:07.

towns people. This woman was raped and sodomised by three soldiers that

:14:08.:14:09.

night. She has already testified in court

:14:10.:14:27.

and found the experience of being a witness a terrible ordeal.

:14:28.:14:58.

They have arrived in the village. The women know how distressing it is

:14:59.:15:05.

for the rape survivors to come to court and are here to prepare them.

:15:06.:15:11.

The psychologist has been working with one woman who was dragged from

:15:12.:15:16.

her hut and raped by a soldier. At the time her baby was only two

:15:17.:15:19.

months old. The local population don't believe

:15:20.:16:16.

the right soldiers are on trial and think they might even still be in

:16:17.:16:22.

the area. Surrounding the village are more than 2,000 disbanded

:16:23.:16:29.

militia men in limbo. This Colonel is one of them. His men took part in

:16:30.:16:34.

the devastation of the village in November 2012.

:16:35.:17:06.

Locally the suspicion is that the Colonel ordered his men to rape. He

:17:07.:17:15.

denied the allegations. Yet he seemed heavily dependent on his

:17:16.:17:21.

advisers sitting next to him. Below the camp, some people still

:17:22.:17:46.

live in fear of him. Since then the Colonel has left the

:17:47.:18:14.

transit centre, taking his men with him into the forest. No high ranking

:18:15.:18:23.

member of the Congolese Army stood trial. I can mention two or three

:18:24.:18:27.

generals, I would have liked to see them stand trial. But never

:18:28.:18:33.

happened, it didn't fly well with the political regime. In Goma in the

:18:34.:18:39.

regional capital, it is another day in court and Nadine is getting

:18:40.:18:40.

ready. One of the most significant charges

:18:41.:19:37.

against these soldiers is of officers failing to control their

:19:38.:19:41.

men. It has been levelled because only one of the raped women was able

:19:42.:19:43.

to identify her assaliant. This is the man she identified, the

:19:44.:20:12.

reason she is so certain is because he's missing a finger which she

:20:13.:20:15.

noticed the night she was raped. And the secretary Lieutenant says he

:20:16.:20:37.

has a cast iron alibi. He doesn't feel he has seen much

:20:38.:20:56.

justice. It is the day of the verdict. It is

:20:57.:21:22.

just five months since this military trial for war crimes started. For

:21:23.:21:26.

Nadine this will be one of the most important decisions of her career.

:21:27.:21:56.

When the trial started 40 men were accused of war crimes, including

:21:57.:22:05.

rape. Since then one man has died in prison and only 27 were detained.

:22:06.:22:12.

Five of the senior officers accused of failing to control their troops

:22:13.:22:22.

were never compelled to appear in court.

:22:23.:22:30.

It is time for the men to hear their fate. None of the witnesses have

:22:31.:22:36.

come, because it is thought to be too dangerous for them.

:22:37.:23:02.

Second Lieutenant Sabwe is one of only two accused of rape as a war

:23:03.:23:13.

crime who have been found guilty. He has been sentenced to life

:23:14.:23:18.

imprisonment. 18 other soldiers were found guilty of looting, all of the

:23:19.:23:29.

five senior officers were cleared. As those found guilty are

:23:30.:23:33.

graphically striped of their rank, whatever the flaws of this trial,

:23:34.:23:37.

the limited successes should also be acknowledged. It has been brought to

:23:38.:23:46.

a conclusion, many witnesses did come to testify at great risk and

:23:47.:23:50.

there were convictions for rape as a war crime, although just two. But if

:23:51.:24:01.

Congo is ever going to rid itself of the title of "rape capital of the

:24:02.:24:05.

world", there needs to be a much stronger form of justice. The cost

:24:06.:24:10.

to society for impunity is still running very high.

:24:11.:24:48.

With us now is Baroness Warsi, a Foreign Office minister and also

:24:49.:24:55.

minister for faith and communities. Let's start by talking, we will come

:24:56.:25:02.

to the question, the Michael Gove, Muslim schools row in a moment,

:25:03.:25:06.

let's first of all talk about the rape initiative you have going. How

:25:07.:25:11.

big is the operational squad of Foreign Office and kindred spirits

:25:12.:25:17.

involved in it? The number of people attending this conference, this

:25:18.:25:20.

summit will in the end run into thousands. The summit is happening

:25:21.:25:24.

not just in London but across the world. We have over 115 countries

:25:25.:25:29.

attending. But it is not just about the numbers, it is about building

:25:30.:25:34.

momentum, real political momentum. But how many people has the British

:25:35.:25:39.

Government committed to it? We have committed experts, which runs into

:25:40.:25:44.

dozens, we are about 70 or 80 experts have already been chance.

:25:45.:25:48.

What are they doing? They are in a variety of field, some of them are

:25:49.:25:52.

experts on evidence-gathering, prosecution, some of them are

:25:53.:25:57.

working on psychological trauma, Victim Support. Some of them are

:25:58.:26:00.

assisting countries with their legal processes and making sure that the

:26:01.:26:04.

right laws are put in place so we do get convictions. What that video

:26:05.:26:10.

showed, more than anything else s that victims need justice, and they

:26:11.:26:15.

need justice by getting successful prosecutions. One of the biggest

:26:16.:26:18.

aims of the summit is to make sure we sign an international protocol

:26:19.:26:24.

that has been agreed set of international standards, which means

:26:25.:26:27.

that evidence is properly gathered and prosecutions are properly

:26:28.:26:30.

brought to court and we do get convictions and finally some justice

:26:31.:26:36.

for the survivors. It makes you wonder why these experts aren't

:26:37.:26:40.

being sent to places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, in

:26:41.:26:47.

order in order that women can get justice. We are working with

:26:48.:26:49.

politicians to get the right political will and we send experts.

:26:50.:26:56.

We have experts in the DRC working with local commune to ex-some of it

:26:57.:27:01.

is about working with NGOs and faith organises working on the ground in

:27:02.:27:05.

the DRC. These are small steps that we have to continue to take to start

:27:06.:27:10.

to build this culture, trying to build this myth-busting approach to

:27:11.:27:15.

the culture of impunity that exists for these victims. Given that this

:27:16.:27:21.

is now a priority of this Government, are we going to take a

:27:22.:27:26.

more generous attitude towards women who are coming here as victims of

:27:27.:27:32.

sexual violence in war? I think we have always considered the legal

:27:33.:27:36.

aspect of war and rape during war as part of people's asylum

:27:37.:27:40.

applications. I know as a lawyer it was one of the things that would

:27:41.:27:45.

always be put forward as part of an asylum claim. Taking one particular

:27:46.:27:52.

case, a woman from Democratic Republic of Congo waiting two years

:27:53.:27:56.

on to hear whether her application for asylum will be successful or

:27:57.:28:00.

not. Who felt humiliated by the cross-examination she got when she

:28:01.:28:04.

came here about her experience, understandably. Who spent the night

:28:05.:28:08.

sleeping in a telephone box, this doesn't sound terribly sympathetic?

:28:09.:28:12.

I know from the discussions I have had with Theresa May that she takes

:28:13.:28:16.

these issues incredibly seriously the work she has done to champion

:28:17.:28:22.

the lives of women and survivors of rape, domestically and

:28:23.:28:25.

internationally, is a huge priority for her. I can't comment on

:28:26.:28:28.

individual cases, but I do think, and I do agree with you that more

:28:29.:28:33.

can be done in making sure that the rape aspect of a person's claim is

:28:34.:28:37.

brought forward. I know that when I used to hear about claims, in my

:28:38.:28:43.

experiences hearing from the women who left the Bosnian war, but the

:28:44.:28:51.

rape element of the horrific experience would be the last thing

:28:52.:28:54.

to come out. That is incredibly challenging sometimes to try to make

:28:55.:28:57.

sure that the full case is put when you make an asylum claim. Can we

:28:58.:29:01.

talk a little bit about the business of schools in Birmingham and indeed

:29:02.:29:08.

elsewhere? We have heard people in Birmingham saying these schools were

:29:09.:29:12.

singled out because they were Muslim schools, that the action taken

:29:13.:29:16.

against them would not have been taken against them had they been

:29:17.:29:19.

Jewish or Catholic schools, is that fair? I would like to think that is

:29:20.:29:23.

not the case or believe that is not the case. These are incredibly

:29:24.:29:29.

serious allegations which would have serious consequences, it is

:29:30.:29:33.

therefore right that these inquiries that we have on going do complete

:29:34.:29:37.

and we get to the bottom of what did and didn't happen and what was and

:29:38.:29:40.

wasn't said. Are you with Michael Gove, you think that religious

:29:41.:29:45.

conservatism can lead, step by step, to terrorism? I don't think Michael

:29:46.:29:50.

is saying that religious conservatism can lead to terrorism.

:29:51.:29:53.

What I fundamentally believe is you can be religiously observant and

:29:54.:29:58.

incredibly observant, that doesn't make you a terrorist. It doesn't

:29:59.:30:00.

mean you are on the pathway to becoming a terrorist. When he talks

:30:01.:30:08.

about British values, and he cites tolerance and other examples of

:30:09.:30:14.

British values, are these schools implicitly not teaching British

:30:15.:30:20.

values? Most schools will in some form of their curriculum talk about

:30:21.:30:24.

what it means to be British, talking about identity. But British values

:30:25.:30:28.

are values held by British people, are they not? Yes. So if some

:30:29.:30:35.

British parents do not wish to celebrate Christmas, do not wish

:30:36.:30:39.

their children to have sex education in school, those are British values

:30:40.:30:45.

aren't they? Sorry. If some British parents do not wish their children

:30:46.:30:49.

to celebrate Christmas, do not wish them to have sex education in

:30:50.:30:52.

schools, those are British values are they not? Fundamental British

:30:53.:30:59.

value is tolerance and accepting people who are different to you,

:31:00.:31:06.

part of that is looking at different religions, celebrating different

:31:07.:31:12.

faith backgrounds and perspectives. Do you think gay marriage is a

:31:13.:31:17.

British value? I think accepting people for being different is a

:31:18.:31:22.

British value. That wasn't quite my question? If you accept somebody who

:31:23.:31:27.

is different, then you accept somebody who practices a different

:31:28.:31:31.

lifestyle to you, whether that is difference in race, religion and

:31:32.:31:37.

sexuality. I don't want to be too persistent here, but you did oppose

:31:38.:31:43.

the Section 28 legislation didn't you? And I have apologised what I

:31:44.:31:48.

said back in 2005, we are nearly a decade on. If this interview is

:31:49.:31:51.

going to be about something I said ten years ago for which I have

:31:52.:31:56.

apologised and stepped away from then... I'm trying to get to this

:31:57.:32:00.

very difficult question of how we define what British values are? I

:32:01.:32:04.

would define British values as freedom, which includes the freedom

:32:05.:32:09.

of religion and belief, I would define it as tolerance, which

:32:10.:32:12.

includes tolerating difference. I would define it as fair play, which

:32:13.:32:17.

means everybody being given the opportunity to succeed in life, and

:32:18.:32:22.

in Yorkshire I define it as having a sense of humour and coming here to

:32:23.:32:26.

do an interview with you probably means I have got a sense of humour.

:32:27.:32:32.

Thank you very much. Officials from the White House, the state

:32:33.:32:36.

department and the army spent an anxious time today trying to

:32:37.:32:38.

persuade American politicians that the price the country paid for the

:32:39.:32:43.

release of Bowe Bergdahl was worthwhile. The US has handed over

:32:44.:32:47.

one member of the Taliban for every year that Bergdahl was held captive.

:32:48.:32:52.

As more information has come to light about the deal, and more

:32:53.:32:56.

rumours swirl about how Bergdahl came to be captured, joy of the

:32:57.:33:02.

soldier's return has been replaced by anxiety at the price paid. We

:33:03.:33:06.

have been to Bowe Bergdahl's home town.

:33:07.:33:10.

Bowe Bergdahl's balloons are still flying in Idaho, even if people here

:33:11.:33:14.

are feeling a bit deflated. The gloss has come off what they thought

:33:15.:33:20.

would be a celebration. This cafe has been the headquarterses of a

:33:21.:33:25.

five-year campaign to free Bowe, it is closed now. This is a book for

:33:26.:33:31.

people to share their sentiments for Bowe. Saturday I changed it and it

:33:32.:33:38.

is now freedom. Not everyone left positive comments, after being the

:33:39.:33:41.

face of the campaign, before and after his release, Sue has been

:33:42.:33:45.

threatened by letter, on-line and in person. They are angry, I think it

:33:46.:33:50.

is a bigger picture than Bowe Bergdahl. I think we are seeing a

:33:51.:33:55.

glimpse of our culture here in America. I think there is a lot of

:33:56.:33:59.

angry people and they just need something to express it at, that

:34:00.:34:05.

they feel is a viable channel of expression, I guess. The President

:34:06.:34:10.

depends his deal to free Bowe Bergdahl... The case of Bowe

:34:11.:34:13.

Bergdahl is still being picked over by the American news networks.

:34:14.:34:19.

Backlash there are the right and left. It would have been offensive

:34:20.:34:24.

and comprehensible to consciously leave an American behind... . But

:34:25.:34:31.

the question is at what cost... . Sun Valley finds itself at the

:34:32.:34:34.

centre of it all. The rich and famous come here for the winter sun

:34:35.:34:40.

and windswept -- summer sun and winter snow, they like it because

:34:41.:34:43.

people leave them alone. This has been a tough week, particularly in

:34:44.:34:48.

Bowe Bergdahl's small town. A small and close community finding itself

:34:49.:34:52.

at the centre of so much negative attention. The lad who used to work

:34:53.:34:57.

in the cafe, when he was taken in Afghanistan people put yellow

:34:58.:35:01.

ribbons around the trees, they helped the family campaign for the

:35:02.:35:05.

release. The joy of him being freed has been replaced by surprise and

:35:06.:35:11.

confusion about the amount of anger and vitriol aimed at people here. It

:35:12.:35:18.

is remarkable. Our community is fatigued by being so excited about

:35:19.:35:23.

Bowe's release and the next day it began to turn. It became vicious,

:35:24.:35:28.

angry and hateful. We had not anticipated that kind of reaction.

:35:29.:35:36.

Dale was planning a "Bring Bowe Home" event, they thought it could

:35:37.:35:40.

be a welcome home party, it had to be cancelled? It is indicative of

:35:41.:35:45.

how polarised we are in our country. That so quickly so many people could

:35:46.:35:50.

be so angry and hateful and try to convict Bowe in the public arena,

:35:51.:35:54.

without hearing his side of the story. Without any kind of

:35:55.:35:58.

investigation. Bowe Bergdahl was 23 when he was captured by the Taliban

:35:59.:36:02.

in eastern Afghanistan. There is uncertainty over why he left his

:36:03.:36:05.

base. His upbringing has been closely scrutinised by the US media.

:36:06.:36:10.

His home schooling, his unusual interests. He's very strong, he

:36:11.:36:15.

likes to meditate, he has a very strong spirit, I'm hoping that

:36:16.:36:18.

throughout this entire time he was able to find an inner place that was

:36:19.:36:24.

nice. That he could go to. He had a very idea listic view that he wanted

:36:25.:36:30.

to help and defend the country he believes in. That is what I got from

:36:31.:36:34.

why he joined the military. He also liked the ballet and fencing and

:36:35.:36:41.

martial arts as very regimented, you do the same warm-ups and the same

:36:42.:36:45.

kind of thing and the army is similar, and that appealed to him.

:36:46.:36:50.

The lease of five Taliban leaders from Guantanamo Bay has had people

:36:51.:36:54.

in the community asking if Bowe's freedom was worth it. I think on

:36:55.:36:58.

balance it was a poor deal. Probably if I'm forced into one camp or

:36:59.:37:02.

another, I'm forced into the camp to say I oppose it. But it is hard to

:37:03.:37:08.

jump up and say I don't want a local boy to come home. President Obama

:37:09.:37:11.

has been criticised for the way he announced the deal, alongside Bowe's

:37:12.:37:18.

parents. I sincerely resent him taking the Bergdahl family and

:37:19.:37:21.

pushing them out front, in the rose garden, and subjecting this family

:37:22.:37:26.

to the firestorm of criticism that swept across this nation. Jenny and

:37:27.:37:32.

Bob have kept out of the spotlight since then, and after threats are

:37:33.:37:36.

being protected. Even his beard has been the focus of unsubstantiated

:37:37.:37:41.

allegations that he's a Taliban sympathiser. In town some have taken

:37:42.:37:46.

their signs down, but most still support Bowe and his family. This is

:37:47.:37:50.

our home boy, this is our child, we are not involved in this in a

:37:51.:37:55.

political but loving heart felt way. They hope when Bowe tells his own

:37:56.:38:00.

story of what he endured t could swing the court of public opinion

:38:01.:38:05.

back in his favour. Do you care about how happy a life was led by

:38:06.:38:10.

the animal on your plate? Increasing numbers of us do, apparently. But do

:38:11.:38:14.

you really care about the sort of death a fish on your plate has had.

:38:15.:38:20.

An organisation committed to animal welfare is demanding that armed fish

:38:21.:38:28.

be stunned before they are killed otherwise the whole experience is to

:38:29.:38:37.

stressful for them. We love to look at our children's literature full of

:38:38.:38:41.

characters from the animal world, horses, pigs, cows. Fish not so

:38:42.:38:47.

much. For whatever reason we haven't taken fish to our bosoms in quite

:38:48.:38:51.

the same way. Perhaps that explains why, when it comes to how we kill

:38:52.:38:57.

them, they don't have the same legal protections as our meals on four

:38:58.:39:00.

legs. In Britain, due to voluntary codes of practice from bodies like

:39:01.:39:08.

the RSPCA, most fish are farmed and dispatched to high standards of

:39:09.:39:12.

animal welfare. But it isn't like that across all of Europe. Much what

:39:13.:39:17.

happens behind the scenes to produce your lunchtime tuna sandwich, for

:39:18.:39:24.

instance, isn't particularly palatable. Now moves are afoot to

:39:25.:39:29.

change that. A Government advisory body has recommended that inhumane

:39:30.:39:35.

practices such as live chilling or asphyxiation, be outlawed at the

:39:36.:39:42.

European level. But such principles have costs. Are we ready to bear the

:39:43.:39:47.

cost for a creature we love to eat but don't necessarily love. One who

:39:48.:39:54.

has done some exploring of the fish central nervous system is with us.

:39:55.:39:59.

She is in Pennsylvania. Joining us from Scotland, the epicentre of

:40:00.:40:05.

British agriculture, is the head of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:40:06.:40:09.

Bertie Armstrong. Why on earth are we worrying about this? As you have

:40:10.:40:15.

just said, the information we have now and have been gathering over the

:40:16.:40:19.

last decade is fish, just like birds and mammals, have very similar pain

:40:20.:40:25.

processing pathways. It looks like they experience pain in the same way

:40:26.:40:29.

that birds and mammals do. If that is the case and we extend birds and

:40:30.:40:34.

mammals welfare, why not fish. This particular concern is with farmed

:40:35.:40:40.

fish, by your argument we should extend it to all fish, fish caught

:40:41.:40:44.

on the high seas as well? Absolutely. Although of course that

:40:45.:40:49.

is an interesting and difficult area in its own right. From an ethical

:40:50.:40:54.

perspective you could argue that unlike a farmed fish, fish in the

:40:55.:40:59.

wild has lived a good life out. It is free to roam the seas as it

:41:00.:41:05.

wants. Perhaps in from a utilitarian, the short amount of

:41:06.:41:07.

suffering it goes through at the end, it is justified in terms of

:41:08.:41:12.

harvesting fish in the sea. You may take the same approach as we have

:41:13.:41:16.

for a farmed fish now and saying given we have Intertek neology and

:41:17.:41:21.

we know how to more humanely kill fish on fish farms, perhaps we

:41:22.:41:25.

should transfer that technology. What do you make of the argument?

:41:26.:41:33.

I'm here with a slightly nervous curiosity. It does sound cranky, and

:41:34.:41:41.

I'm a little nervous that it gets extended to wild capture. We are

:41:42.:41:46.

part of a food chain, apart from the odd Safari accident, but killing

:41:47.:41:50.

happens for food all the way along. There shouldn't be gratuitous

:41:51.:41:55.

suffering, but on the other hand, wild capture fish accounts for 15%

:41:56.:42:00.

of the world's protein. It has to be continued. I'm nervous that we apply

:42:01.:42:08.

elements of crankiness to this. Wild capturing of fish is at the end of a

:42:09.:42:17.

long and happy life and has been happening since biblical times and

:42:18.:42:24.

not regarded as cruel. I'm not sure why we are having this argument. Do

:42:25.:42:27.

you feel you are a crank? No, I don't think so, I'm a scientist, I

:42:28.:42:31.

think we need to use science to inform the decisions that we make.

:42:32.:42:38.

In the same way we want to make those careful informed decision,

:42:39.:42:41.

good commercial decision making doesn't have to be mutually

:42:42.:42:45.

exclusive to that. I think absolutely, we want sustainable

:42:46.:42:49.

fishing, we want sustainable fishing practices and you know if that is

:42:50.:42:54.

going to include humane killing, so be it. It is something that

:42:55.:42:59.

confumers are increasingly interested in. They have this right

:43:00.:43:03.

to, I think they are right to have a long-term view. Just because we have

:43:04.:43:06.

done something traditionally for a long way or historically, doesn't

:43:07.:43:10.

mean to say we can't use new information or technologies to

:43:11.:43:15.

improve the way we do things. If it is the case, as suggested, that fish

:43:16.:43:22.

do feel pain, surely we are entitled or should be expected to accord them

:43:23.:43:27.

the same -- afford them the same consideration as farm animals? I

:43:28.:43:32.

didn't wish to label your guest as a crank, I'm nervous about crankiness

:43:33.:43:36.

being applied to the fish industry. The balance of evidence, of course

:43:37.:43:41.

your guest's scientific credentials are apparent. But the balance of

:43:42.:43:45.

scientific evidence is fish don't feel pain in the same way as humans

:43:46.:43:50.

do. It is just plain different. My worry is about the volume capture.

:43:51.:43:55.

We will catch in the Scottish fleet approaching a quarter of a million

:43:56.:44:00.

tonnes of mackerel. It is caught in a volume way. They are not murdered

:44:01.:44:08.

or badly treated, they are pumped into refrigerated sea water tanks.

:44:09.:44:11.

They are not handled individually, and it is not possible to capture

:44:12.:44:15.

that sort of volume of fish and handle them individually. The real

:44:16.:44:19.

question is what can we afford to do and what is senseth sensible to do.

:44:20.:44:24.

That is the crankiness element that I'm trying to be careful not to

:44:25.:44:29.

insult anybody but to guard against. Do you accept there are certain

:44:30.:44:35.

practical difficulties in the consideration that you are extending

:44:36.:44:48.

to fish. For sure, I want to pick up on the fish feeling pain, that is a

:44:49.:44:53.

given. But we don't feel farm animals feel pain in the same way

:44:54.:44:58.

humans do but we afford them welfare rights and humane killing. So, yes,

:44:59.:45:03.

things potentially become difficult, harvesting large amounts and large

:45:04.:45:07.

catches of fish, absolutely. These are technically challenging, but

:45:08.:45:10.

there are experimental fleets in Denmark and Norway that are

:45:11.:45:16.

modifying trawler boats, that are expressly trying to devise better,

:45:17.:45:21.

more effective ways of maintaining fish in the water. In the same way

:45:22.:45:26.

we heard mackerel are pumped into sea water VATs, -- vats, bringing

:45:27.:45:33.

them on to the surface of the deck and letting them suffocate may be

:45:34.:45:40.

something to avoid if we can put them into vats on the boat. The head

:45:41.:45:48.

of FIFA, Mr Sepp Blatter, had been looking forward to a feast of sport

:45:49.:45:51.

over the next few weeks, instead today he had a bucket of cold water

:45:52.:45:57.

thrown over him by some of the most powerful football organisations

:45:58.:46:00.

amongst his members. He had just finished telling them he was

:46:01.:46:03.

standing for a fifth tour, when representatives of great footballing

:46:04.:46:06.

nations suggested it would be all together better to the game if he

:46:07.:46:09.

stuck to his previous promise to stand down. So is time running out

:46:10.:46:15.

for President Blatter. I'm joined now by the former chief executive of

:46:16.:46:19.

the Football Association. What do you think, is the game up for him do

:46:20.:46:23.

you think? I don't actually think the game is up for him. I have never

:46:24.:46:29.

seen such an array of voices against him such as we see today, players,

:46:30.:46:33.

associations, sponsors and Government agencies. I actually

:46:34.:46:37.

think it is probably one of the most difficult challenges he has faced.

:46:38.:46:41.

But he is quite a good politician in that regard. His comments today are

:46:42.:46:47.

nothing more, or appear to be, if not dedevolutional, they are --

:46:48.:46:58.

delusional, and show why he shouldn't stand as President. As a

:46:59.:47:01.

President you would unite the organisation, not seek to harvest

:47:02.:47:07.

the benefit of disunity that you have sown. How significant is it

:47:08.:47:12.

footballing nations like England, Holland, opposed to him? You have to

:47:13.:47:17.

recognise the fact, again it is Sepp Blatter very good at doing the

:47:18.:47:23.

maths, with 209 organisations with one vote, UEFA is one of the

:47:24.:47:27.

strongest confederations, it has about 53 votes hast always been

:47:28.:47:30.

significant, because of the quality of the football and the financial

:47:31.:47:33.

aspects of European football. But having said that, there has been

:47:34.:47:37.

over quite a number of years a feeling within the FIFA body that in

:47:38.:47:41.

fact the Europeans have had enough of a role in terms of running the

:47:42.:47:46.

place. There is a bit of discord there generally. So the guys may

:47:47.:47:53.

well rail against the moon. With 53 votes against 209 Sepp Blatter

:47:54.:47:57.

appears confident. I don't think, whilst it is very discomforting for

:47:58.:48:03.

him, I don't think he will be unduly concerned that he won't be able to

:48:04.:48:07.

secure another term. Thank you very much indeed.

:48:08.:48:11.

That's it for tonight. Hope we were clearer to you than the Disney

:48:12.:48:14.

corporation's translation of its film Frozen in the Middle East. They

:48:15.:48:19.

opted for modern standard Arabic instead of the usual Egyptian

:48:20.:48:22.

Arabic, the use of that very formal and some what archaic way of

:48:23.:48:26.

speaking has gone down rather badly with some six-year-olds. A professor

:48:27.:48:34.

of literature has translated it back into English so you can see the

:48:35.:48:37.

problem. # Conceal don't feel

:48:38.:48:41.

# Don't let them know # Well now they know

:48:42.:48:45.

# Let it go # Let it go

:48:46.:48:51.

# Can't hold it back any more # Let it go

:48:52.:48:59.

# Turn away and slam the door # I don't care

:49:00.:49:07.

# What they're going to say # Let the storm rage on

:49:08.:49:16.

Hello, if you have had enough of the heavy showers and thunderstorms we

:49:17.:49:25.

have seen recently, relief is in sight. In fact it starts tomorrow.

:49:26.:49:32.

Most will start the day dry and stay dry throughout the day. One or two

:49:33.:49:38.

light showers dotted about the northern half of the UK. You will be

:49:39.:49:42.

unlucky if you u catch one.

:49:43.:49:44.

Iraq's third city falls. Why the Ofsted boss ate his words. Rape trials in the Congo. The US Taliban POW goes home. Do fish feel pain. FIFA corruption.


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