Browse content similar to 16/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Islamic fascist forces sweeping through the north of Iraq have to be | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
stopped, the American Secretary of State said today, since they | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
threaten the very existence of the country, but how? We have views from | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
America and Iran and our diplomatic editor is here. With images emerging | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
of Iraqi prisoners apparently being killed by the insurgents, Iraq falls | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
deeper into Civil War. Lord Saatchi joins us to argue it is time to | :00:33. | :00:41. | |
abolish corporation tax. I came out believing it was against God's will | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
to provide health care or benefits, I was misogynistic because I was | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
taught women should obey their husbands. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
taught women should obey their what goes on behind our private | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
Christian schools. what goes on behind our private | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
British women are engaged from what goes on behind our private | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
land and sea, their mission, to remove Saddam Hussein from power and | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
disarm Iraq from its weapons of mass destruction. Will our relationship | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
with Tony Blair ever recover from that moment, or is there some other | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
reason he makes so many people so angry. | :01:18. | :01:28. | |
Fighting has continued today between the Iraqi Government and its enemies | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
in the Sunni militant group ISIS. But while the battlefield seems to | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
be stablising, the political mercury is risinger, the American Secretary | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
of State today accused ISIS of massacring huge numbers of captured | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Iraqi troops. Disturbing images suggesting this may be happening | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
have been posted by the Sunni group on its own social media pages. We | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
have been examining the claims that the Jihadists have been carrying out | :01:58. | :02:16. | |
executions on a massive scale. When Tikrit fell ISIS captured thousands | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
of soldiers. There are suggestions they were murdered en masse soon | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
after the images were taken. It is part of an information strategy, | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
complete with Twitter and Facebook accounts being run by the Jihadist | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
group. It is very similar to the kind of videos that we saw from | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
ISIS's predecessor organisations in the mid-2000s. The style of pictures | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
and the kinds of executions of so called traitors, Government people. | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
We have all seen this before. What makes it different are the numbers | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
of people that are being executed. Still photographs show the men being | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
herded into trucks and taken to waste ground, there it appears they | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
were executed by the dozen. It apparently marks an escalation in | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the brutality of this conflict. Some have pointed out these are stills | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
from a video that has not yet appeared. So is this material | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
genuine? It is very difficult to say with any high degree of certainty, | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
but certainly from what we know about where the images came from and | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
what they appear to show and what we know about ISIS already, it is a | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
pretty fair assumption to make that this is genuine and this happened. | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
But other footage, believed to show the abuse of Iraqi prisoners also | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
taken near Tikrit has emerged. Prisoners, bewildered and dehydrated | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
are taunted and challenged to repeat an ISIS slogan. The man doing this | :03:43. | :03:56. | |
has a north African accent. You can never be sure for definite, but you | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
can look at things like the accent of the people in the videos, the | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
clothes that they are wearing and the environment they are in. These | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
people appear to be an Iraqi army uniform, the accent spoken by the | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
people are captured are Iraqi accents for sure, we think the | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
militants and captors are north African, possibly Libyan or | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
Tunisian, that is in keeping with ISIS's recruitment, they recruit | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
from a wide variety of countries. Later the captured Iraqis were | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
executed, so really any debate is about the scale rather than the fact | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
that ISIS kills its captives. But why publicise it? I think the | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
principal audience for this right now are people inside of Iraq. They | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
want to tell people that there is absolutely no point in trying to | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
confront ISIS. They want to scare people, they want to terrorise | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
people, they want to achieving exactly the same effect that we saw | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
in the taking of Mosul. When seven or eight hundred ISIS people scared | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
30,000 soldiers so much that they were completely abandoning their | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
positions and essentially running away. The Iraqi Government has been | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
blocking certain social media accounts, and tonight there are | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
reports that they are trying to cut off internet access all together in | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
the five provinces worst hit by the violence. Volunteers, mostly Shia | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
have meanwhile been flocking to support the Government. So is the | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
ISIS strategy designed to terrorise these men, or goad them into | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
performing their own atrocities in revenge? Social media is the new | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
battleground in wars around the world, and ISIS is not the only one. | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
In this conflict the Iraqi Government, or forces, members of | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Iraqi forces have also been posting pictures of their atrocities | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
on-line. Especially Facebook, and we have seen even images of executions | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
where they are boasting about their crimes. So ISIS is far from the only | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
player in the game of propaganda on social media. In its professionally | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
produced videos ISIS boasts that its enemies can expect no mercies. But | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
its enemies too are multiplying and many no doubt will feel that there | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
are now scores to be settled. The threat posed by ISIS has caused | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
such alarm that in keeping with the proverb that the energy of my enemy | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
is my friend, there are suggestions that the USA might start talking to | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
Iran in pursuit of a solution to the crisis. Does this mean the United | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
States is about to join in this fight? Speculation has increased | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
because of what John Kerry said today. Interestingly rather like the | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
Syrian crisis, John Kerry, America's chief diplomat has sounded the most | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
bellicose of the senior official, he said AFSHGs is one -- air strikes | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
may be one of the options the US is looking at. We know HMS Bush is | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
getting ready for that type of contingency. As far as I have heard | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
that this would be regarded as a last resort, the US would prefer to | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
step up support with more drone flights. Apparently US drones have | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
been operating in Iraq for the past few months already. They want to | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
step up that kind of help and intelligence. They want to boost the | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
performance of the Iraqi army if they possibly can and would only | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
resort to military action if they felt they absolutely had to. How | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
does it fit with the biggest picture of American relations with Iran? Of | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
course people inevitably asked today if we are about to start military | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
action potentially are we co-operating with Iran, are we tying | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
this up with them? Fascinatingly the Pentagon said they would not be | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
co-ordinating with Iran. That is a very specific military term, it | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
really just says we will not have guys in the same punkers. We are not | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
going to be the Iranian Revolutionary Guard's air force | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
hitting the targets they want us to. It would mean that the US and the | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
Iraqi Armed Forces would be operating and co-ordinating and the | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
Iranians, potentially, and the Iraqi Armed Forces would be doing the same | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
thing. So it would mean potentionally they were on the same | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
side. Now, of course talks have been going on in Vienna on the Iranian | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
nuclear issue which is a whole other major question coming to a political | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
juncture, the drive to get a final deal resolving that long-running | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
international problem. The Americans have been there, William Burns who | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
ran the back channel with Iran who made the progress on the nuclear | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
dossier has been there. They have been talking for sure, we think they | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
have been talking about Iraq too. Here now is the US Ambassador to the | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
UK, you are not going to say this has nothing to do with the 2003 | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
invasion, are you? I would just build on what Mark said, you heard | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
from Secretary Kerry and President Obama, he made it clear that he is | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
weighing all the options about how we can help stop the barbarism that | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
your opening segment showed. But the President also made the point that | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
in addition to any immediate things we might do to help that ultimately | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
the solution is not a military one, the solution is a political one and | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
called on the people of Iraq to build a unity Government so that | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
Shia and Kurds and Sunni could all work together to isolate and rid | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
their country of the terrorist scourge. This was seen to come? The | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
urgency is to deal with the situation on the ground. The | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
unarguable fact that Al-Qaeda and equivalent and cohorts were not in | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
Iraq before the invasion of 2003, were they? Indeed and look President | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
Obama was very outspoken at the time before he was in federal office and | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
he ran a presidential campaign very publicly many times saying that he | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
thought that was a mistake for reasons I won't go through right | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
now. But once he got into office he said he wanted to responsibly wind | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
down this effort in Iraq, but we will not disengage, America has to | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
stay engaged, if we don't we are not safe. That is why we have stayed | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
engaged and tried to train the troops and remain so. The training | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
wasn't so effective, they seemed to all run away? Look what the | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
President said a few days ago is we were very troubled. Think about the | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
sacrifice that the American troops have made and the investment the | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
American people have made, say what you will about 2003 massive | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
investment giving the Iraqi people a chance to seize their own future, | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
and invested in training it. You saw it was very troubling in Mosul with | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
thousands of people turning and running from the Armed Forces, that | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
is not what we trained them to do. We can do a lot as America, the | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
international community, but we can't do it for them. That political | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
will and determination to fight, that comes from a trust in the | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
political system that has to be unified and make people feel part of | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
a shared solution. That is what has gone wrong, there is no faith in the | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
politic calm system? Not enough, clearly. Paul Bremmer says you can't | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
sort this out without troops on the ground, do you agree with that? As a | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
private citizen he's entitled to his opinions. He knows whereof he | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
speaks? President Obama said he would keep lots of options on the | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
table, putting troops on the ground is not one of the options the things | :11:39. | :11:46. | |
he's considering. We have hard won humility from experiences around the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
world about our abilities to affect change inside countries. That is why | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
we're... What does that mean? We had 167,000 ground troops there. And | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
couldn't contain certain amounts of violence. So we have learned those | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
lessons and the lesson is not to retreat as a country, America stays | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
engaged and stays leading but we have to do it with the Iraqi people | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
taking own anothership and the Iraqi -- ownership and the Iraqi people | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
building a system that their forces are not only well equipped and well | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
trained but they have the will to fight for the Iraqis. These ISIS | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
people, they are not part of the Iraqi political system, they don't | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
care what is good for Iraq. How are you going to stay engaged faced with | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
a catastrophe like this? We are staying engaged right now, we have | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
been engaged since winding down the troops. We have stayed engaged | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
through training. We have the biggest embassy in the world in | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
Baghdad. We are diplomatically engaged, we are engaged with | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
development, training and intelligence. It doesn't work? It | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
does work, it isn't perfect and the President and the secretary of state | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
would be the first to say, but just because of that doesn't mean we | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
don't stay engaged. It makes it more important. If we pull back and other | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
parts of the international community pull back look what will fill the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
void. What are you able to offer the Iranians as an inducement to | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
co-operate with you in attempting to address this problem? I wouldn't put | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
it that way, I don't think we are talking about inducements, certainly | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
we are engaged with everyone in the neighbourhood so to speak, to say we | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
all have a stake in it. The people of Iraq are under threat, the | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
neighbouring countries are under threat, the Secretary of State said | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
today we're not going to rule out any options for constructive | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
solutions here. So you are perfectly happy to be an ally of Iran in this | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
matter are you? I would not put it that way at all. We are open to | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
constructive ideas and it is not a position for me here to rule out any | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
of those options. Thank you very much ambassador. We have the Middle | :13:56. | :14:06. | |
East programme director at the Woodrow Wilson Centre in Washington | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
and she joins me from there. What is the Iranian interest in all of this | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
please? I think the main interests of Iran is to have a neighbouring | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
country that is stable and that is not in a chaotic situation as Iraq | :14:23. | :14:33. | |
that is has been and continues to be. That is the main interest of | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
Iran. If the United States approached Iran with a view to some | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
sort of operation and highly unlikely to be a military | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
co-operation, what would be the likely response in Tehran, do you | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
think? Well, there is diversity of views coming out from Tehran. There | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
are certain members of Government who say they would talk about Iraq | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
with the United States even in Vienna if the United States | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
approaches them. The head of the National Security Council in Iran | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
said that we are not going to talk with the United States, except under | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
certain conditions. There are others who have even hinted that we should | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
only talk to the United States if they stop supporting ISIS, which is | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
amazing, to make that kind of statement. What would sensible | :15:32. | :15:39. | |
members of the regime in Tehran be seeking from any talks? Well, I | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
think they would like to see what the United States is planning to do, | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
that is probably their first question and, secondly, the role of | :15:55. | :16:04. | |
Iran could be to bring maybe some pressure on Al-Maliki to even at | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
this stage of the game to try to form a more inclusive Government and | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
also you know try to influence the Shi'ite militias who have been quite | :16:17. | :16:25. | |
close to the Revolutionary Guards in, during their stay in Iraq. Thank | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
you very much indeed. Now, as the great Mark Twain the | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
difference between a tax collector and taxidermist, is the taxidermist | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
leaves you with your skin! Political right-wingers have argued for | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
generations the way to improve the economy is free people from | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
taxation. Now the Conservative peer Lord Saatchi has produced a plan to | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
abolish corporation tax, a tax on small firms' profits. Paradoxically | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
he believes that cutting the tax could slash the deficit faster than | :17:04. | :17:14. | |
it would levy it. In the first term Margaret Thatcher landed on a policy | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
that would change the political landscape. Right to buy affected six | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
minion people. Michael Heseltine remarked that no single piece of | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
legislation transferred wealth from the state to the people. Now another | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
senior Tory, with a pedigree to match, thinks he has landed on the | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
same kind of game-changer. Not popcorn, but a policy some might see | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
Asimly full of hot air. A move to abolish corporation tax for small | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
businesses, which this company, going for just three years and | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
facing their first corporation tax bill believe would make all the | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
difference. Instead of spending money on corporation tax we could | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
spend it on employing more pastry chef who make our popcorn, we could | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
invest more in machinery to help us produce more popcorn across more | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
amazing flavours as well. Free marketeers will cite the curve, the | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
relationship between the rate of taxation and resulting levels of | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
revenue that the Government brings in. They will argue that the lower | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
the rate of taxation for businesses the greater the overall benefit to | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
the economy will be. They will be persuasive, but will they be right? | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
Let's test the claim, Lord Saatchi says the impact of the policy would | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
be to reduce the deficit faster than predicted by the OBR. In this | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
instance I would be surprised if in the short run you got more revenue | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
from something like this, in the long run if it changed the structure | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
of the economy that might happen. What about the claim it would expand | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
employment faster than predicted? It might increase employment, wages, | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
they might just increase the profits or the take-home pay of the | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
entrepeneurs. Or it would increase competition and cartel capitalism, | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
the domination of the multinational? It might help change the structure | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
of the economy, but over the foreseeable future you are not going | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
to break up capitalism as a result of something like this. It is a | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
policy that doesn't come cheap, with a static cost of ?10 billion, | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
roughly what the abolition of stamp duty on homes would cost. Businesses | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
say corporation tax isn't the biggest worry. Most businesses are | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
struggling with business rates, in the rented accommodation and rented | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
kitchens we are here, the biggest challenge is moving from a place | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
with business rates to our own dedicated facility. The greatest | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
worry says the IFS and the TUC and others is it would increase the | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
likelihood of tax avoidance, once you have tasted the no increase in | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
tax on the company and profits made, the opportunity for getting around | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
the tax system all together would would be irresistable. Is this what | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
the Treasury wants to sign up to? Lord Saatchi is here with us now, | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
how would you pay for this to start with? I will answer the question, | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
but before I do, as you have given me the honour of being one of your | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
last interviews on Newsnight. This is going to be embarrassing. What is | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
this gift? On behalf of all your victims, it is... "The Road To | :20:27. | :20:35. | |
Serfdom". The first edition in the very important book in the history | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
of politics. Wasn't this Margaret Thatcher's great text? It is written | :20:40. | :20:47. | |
by Von Hayer and her mentor in many ways. I'm looking forward to reading | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
it. Your victims wish you well. On to the question, yes, how would you | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
pay for this? Can I put it, can I ask that directly, I will put this | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
into the context, if I may, on Wednesday 900 people are coming to | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
the Centre for PolicStudies '40th an versery, the Thatcher conference on | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
liberty. And 31 think tanks from around the world. They are coming | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
and there is an amazing galaxy to address the question of freedom and | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
liberty. Our aim in the Centre for Policy Studies, as in the aim of | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
founding the centre is to enhance freedom. We will be publishing on | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
Wednesday some research, some polling, which people will find, I | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
think, very distressing. It asks who do you trust? Big companies or big | :21:44. | :21:52. | |
Government? It finds that 70% of people distrust big Government and | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
that 70% distrust big companies. Therefore our aim is to increase | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
people's freedom and our method of doing that is to say that people who | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
are starting up new companies, or who are in small companies, that is | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
companies with less than 50 people, will pay no corporation tax, and by | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
the way, no capital gains tax when the companies are sold. These | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
companies pay no corporation tax. Can I ask you the question again | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
then, how do you pay for that? The cost of doing that is ?11 billion. | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
So it is around that in the national accounts, it is a significant sum. | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
So your question will be where will this money come from. That is what | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
it is? Good. The answer is that following the advice of deep throat | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
in Watergate, you remember that he said "follow the money", and what | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
the economist who have produced this policy have done is to follow the | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
money. That ?11 billion which is in that second lost to the Treasury | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
were does it go? That's what they have done. It doesn't stay under | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
people's pillows, that is in nobody's interest. Thanks to the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
Treasury, the Treasury has recently published its own report on what | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
happens when corporation tax is reduced. They find that the money | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
goes in three directions, it is paid in dividends, which then involves | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
more income tax, it goes in hiring more people, which means less | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
welfare payments for the Treasury and more income tax for the Treasury | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
and it goes in the third direction in further investment which speeds | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
growth. Therefore we are going to say on Wednesday that this policy | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
recovers the ?11 billion. And there is the very nice man from the IFS as | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
he said can reduce the deficit faster than the OBR currently | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
predicts. It is interesting you should choose this tax as opposed to | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
the tax that businesses care about more, like business rates and VAT | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
for example? Why not tackle those? Well you could, one could try to | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
abolish all tax, if you like. But what we are interested in doing is | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
abolishing two taxes. Corporation tax only on small companies, with | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
less than 50 employios, and capital gains -- employees, and capital | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
gains tax that those who sell shares in small companies don't pay tax. If | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
those two abolitions don't have a similar effect to the effect of | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
buying your own council house in terms of cultural affects and social | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
impact. Wouldn't one effect be, as was suggested earlier, to encourage | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
people to avoid tax because they would choose, well I don't pay any | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
corporation tax, I'm a small business, why not just pay myself | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
through my company as opposed to taking it as income and paying | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
income tax? The thing is this policy doesn't involve any new legislation | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
or new definitions of small companies. There are things called | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
small companies now. There is a small company tax regime. There are | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
different laws and different rules which apply to small companies as | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
they exist now this is most certainly going to encourage people | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
to be small companies. And you honestly believe this could be | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
afforded at a time of financial stringcy. The cost is ??11 billion. | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
A lot of money? According to figures by the IFS has looked at, that money | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
is recovered in four years and the result in terms of the deficit... | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
The Treasury don't think it would be recovered in four years, they think | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
it will take 20 years to recover 60% of it? We don't know what the | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
Treasury is saying about it, they are considering it. The case that | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
has been put to the Treasury and which the IFS was commenting on is | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
that we are looking here for more freedom. This is in effect a social | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
policy. Not an economic policy. It is a social policy, being brought | :26:01. | :26:10. | |
into effect by economic means. The affect of the social policy we are | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
looking at is Britain to have a more get-up-and-go dynamic entrepeneurial | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
culture. If the abolition of the taxes for small companies doesn't | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
get people out of bed in the morning, nothing will. Thank you | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
very much and thank you for the book. | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
Government ministers worrying about what children are taught in schools | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
have made much in the last couple of weeks of claims that Islamic | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
fundamentalists were trying to imbue young people with a warped view of | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
the world. It has led to much concern about British values. But do | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
these concerns extend also to schools of other faiths which teach | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
extreme interpretations. Parents are allowed to choose an education for | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
their children, which fits their religious convictions. But where | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
does belief end and bigotry begin. We report on what's happening in a | :27:03. | :27:11. | |
number of Christian schools. When the Trojan horse allegations hit the | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
headlines, Education Secretary, Michael Gove, declared that no pupil | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
should be exposed to extremist views on radicalisation while at school. | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
The Government has made it clear there is no place for religious | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
extremism in Britain's state schools. But some private schools, | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
which don't receive Government funding are openly teaching what | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
could be described as a hardline Christian agenda. Private or | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
independent schools do not have to teach the National Curriculum. And | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
at least 30 private schools in the UK, and some home schooling parents, | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
teach the accelerated Christian education, or ACE curriculum. It is | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
marketed as a Bible-based curriculum, designed to protect | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
children from secular lies. In science lessons pupils are taught | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
that the theory of evolution doesn't stand up, that the earth is just a | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
few thousand years old this instead of the 4. 5 billion years old that | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
scientists believe, and the curriculum explicitly states that | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
even on scientific matters the Bible is the final authority. We spoke to | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
one ex-pupil who has campaigned against the curriculum. I think that | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
essentially allowing the ACE curriculum means we are letting | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
children be lied to. They are telling them things as though they | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
are facts that are not fact. My parents sent me to an ACE school | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
when I was 11, they wanted a Christian education. I think the | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
curriculum was more extreme than they realised. I came out of my ACE | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
school believing it was against God's will to provide healthcare or | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
benefits to citizens, I was misogynistic because I was taught | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
that women should submit and obey their husband, I believed science | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
could show us that homosexuality was immoral and wrong. The ACE biology | :29:06. | :29:14. | |
textbook mixes questions on cell division and photo synthies with | :29:15. | :29:22. | |
statements like a"abortion is murder", "homosexuality is sin" and | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
"sides is a direct consequence of violating God's laws". Michael Rice | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
is a professor of science education and Anglican priest. He believes the | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
ACE curriculum is letting pupils down. The ACE curriculum they are | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
pretty fundamentalist so they are right at one end of the spectrum. | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
One of the disappointments to me is the way that some ACE schools are | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
clearly giving the impression that you can't have a strong religious | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
faith and accept the mainstream scientific understanding of the | :29:58. | :29:59. | |
world. What you want is all students, whatever sort of school | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
they are going to, to realise that the theory of evolution is very, | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
very widely accepted in the scientific community, but it doesn't | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
help students from fundamentalist Christian families to leave school | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
thinking that the theory of evolution is just rubbish. But | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
currently parents have the right to educate their children in line with | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
their religious beliefs. The 62 pupils at this Christian school near | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
Swindon learn the ACE curriculum. We spoke to two senior pupils. The | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
curriculum is based on an American fundamentalist viewpoint. That's | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
shipped over to here and the teachers then kind of deliver that | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
to us in a way that associates critical thinking and other ways of | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
learning. I guess the influence of God really plays a big part in | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
science and how we view that and how we a taught that. There are a lot of | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
people in the school that may not 100% believe in creation or | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
evolution, but I believe that the world was created and that's just my | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
opinion, but we all have our own opinion in the school and no-one is | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
forced to believe certain things. I asked the headteacher why | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
creationism is taught to pupils in science lessons? We teach them that | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
there are these two sides to the argument. The ACE programme teaches | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
that, with a heavy emphasis on the creationism being the Christian | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
viewpoint. And no, I don't believe that it harms their education at | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
all, after all, if we are talking about choice in education, then the | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
choice to believe in any kind of area that one chooses must be open, | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
presumably. It would be perfectly OK for you to teach your pupils that | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
the earth was flat? Unless, not if I didn't believe that to be the case, | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
obviously. So if that was in the Bible, you would teach that, that it | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
was perfectly OK to hold that as a scientific viewpoint? Not | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
necessarily. What the world doesn't like about bibically-based views is | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
there are absolutes in there, and that is not a very well received | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
kind of concept. Do you subscribe to those absolutes? Yeah, I do. Like | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
many other ACE schools, Ofsted rated this school as good, and said that | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
the curriculum was good. But what happens when pupils leave? ACE | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
pupils don't sit GCSEs and A-levels but instead earn the international | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
certificate of Christian education. Or ICC E. But unlike mainstream | :32:53. | :33:02. | |
qualifications, the ICCE is not aid and I credited by the exams | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
regulator, for that reason some universities won't accept it. In | :33:08. | :33:14. | |
essence, ACE could be regarded as a fundamentalist curriculum, | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
delivering a little known qualification, all with Ofsted's | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
blessing. My guest is the current President of the Association of | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
Science education and has back add new law to prevent creationism being | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
taught. And my other guest has attended an ACE school and involved | :33:39. | :33:46. | |
in promoting it. Why do you think ACE creationism in science classes? | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
There seems to be some attack on ACE students and saying in some way they | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
are unable to have a decent academic education. That was not my why. If I | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
could address this issue first. I'm asking you a straight forward | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
question why is it taught in science not religion? It is taught in both. | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
It is a potential answer to a question that all of us must face | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
which is not only how did we get here but questions like why are we | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
here? Questions like what meaning does life have and where do we go | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
when we die? These are fundamental questions that many people ask, | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
rather than closing down questioning in students and saying we have come | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
to one understanding of the world, we need to be open to questions. It | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
is a met at that physical question, not a science question? Why are we | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
here is a met at that physical question not science question. This | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
is potentially true. Yet you teach it in science? I don't teach | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
anything. I'm a former student. It is your organisation? It is not my | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
organisation. It is an organisation you believe in? Yes I do. May I just | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
explain why I believe in it. My sister is PhD. Let's Alice Robert | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
have a go. Alice Roberts is a PhD and understands the importance of | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
academics, my brother is studying masters, I graduated philosophy and | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
politics at York, to suggest that they are academically impeded is | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
nonsense. We saw a couple of very smart young students at the school, | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
the question is not their education? Was implied in the video. I don't | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
think it was, clearly there were able students there what is the | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
problem? The problem is basically that of standards. But you saw | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
perfectly able students there, going off to Cambridge? But being caught | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
that evolution and this is from their textbook, being taught that | :35:41. | :35:43. | |
evolution is scientifically unsound, which is patently not true. | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
evolution is scientifically unsound, Evolution is a theory? So is the | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
idea that the earth goes round the sun rather than the other way round, | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
these are scientific theories. That is a disproven idea? We can | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
establish that the earth is not flat as was said in the piece, the earth | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
isn't flat we know it isn't, empierically we know it is round? | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
Empierically we know evolution has happened. There are numerous lines | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
of evidence, there is no debate in science about this. And the | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
Government accepts this. Just because you all choose to believe | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
the same thing doesn't mean it is true, does it? As a scientist we | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
constantly test what we think is right against the evidence, and no | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
evidence has come to light that disproves evolution, despite what | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
the ACE textbooks say. My main issue is the Government is quite clear | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
that science should be taught as a comprehensive coherent and | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
extensively evidenced they are year, that is their own words in their | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
advice to free school, why one rule for our state-funded schools and | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
when it comes to independent schools we don't seem to find if science is | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
taught properly or not. Does it matter if they are not funded by | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
taught properly or not. Does it state? If they are private schools, | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
why shouldn't they teach what they like? If that's an argument then | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
they should be able to teach the earth is flat. They are not teaching | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
the earth is flat are they? Nobody believes this. Let's be honest. If | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
people pay for their children to be educated we know there should be | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
standards, Ofsted visits the schools, there is a view standards | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
should be achieved, and those standards should include the content | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
of the curriculum not just the quality of teaching and leadership | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
in the school which is what Ofsted has done before. Ofsted is being | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
changed partly in response to the Birmingham schools issue. Ofsted | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
hopefully there is going to be a tighter inspection regime coming | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
into play, where they will look at content of curriculum. When you look | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
at this, this textbook of yours here, it does say that the theory of | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
evolution is false. You believe literal truth of the Bible do you? I | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
believe that God is the creator, and do you know. Do you believe the | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
world was created in six days? You will have to forgive me I'm not | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
actually a scientist. I'm just asking you what you believe? Then | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
you will bring it down to a faith question, if I believe it was or | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
wasn't S How long did it create to create the world? You are asking me | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
a faith-based question. But you have been taught science in school, what | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
were you taught in science in school? I was taught the theory of | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
evolution alongside the theory of creation. The two were presented to | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
me. And do you know what having twoal ternives enables me to be a | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
critical thinker. It is notable one of your great lines is that you want | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
students to be open minded and yet you are going completely against | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
this in what you are saying, you are saying everybody is open minded in | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
as much as they agree with me. Not at all. Your own textbooks say that | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
evolution is a scientifically unsound theory, which is patently | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
not true. This is a lie which children are being taught. I know | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
that there is certainly a lot of critque around theory of macro | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
evolution, and all of these different areas that, again, not | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
being a scientist, I'm not well placed to comment on. You might look | :39:06. | :39:12. | |
at Provan John Lennox at Oxford's survey of all of this issue about | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
whether the earth reveals a creator, in his book God's Undertaker which | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
surveys the issue very well and is a voice worth hearing. Could have | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
asked him to be on the programme. I don't think the issue is whether | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
evolution has happened, whether it is a reality. The issue is whether | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
the Department for Education and the Government, which holds a view on | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
this which says evolution should be taught as a comprehensive, coherent | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
and extensively evidenced theory, whether that should be extended to | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
independent schools when assessing standards. And indeed to other | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
theories perhaps? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. The crisis in Iraq | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
has suddenly breathed new life into one of the great issues of British | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
domestic politics. Just how much do you dislike Tony Blair? He claims | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
that the invasion of Iraq, which he so vehemently supported and so much | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
of the country so vehemently didn't support has nothing to do with the | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
upsurge of violence there. Instead it is the consequence of not | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
intervening in Syria. He must be unhinged, says the Mayor of London, | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
Boris Johnson. Even members of his own party accuse Tony Blair of | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
acting like a neo-con. Prime Minister, performer, statesman. Tony | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
Blair you Knighted the left and swept -- united the left and swept | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
to power on a booming economy and improvement of public services. It | :40:40. | :40:41. | |
is a single decision most will remember him. All we are asking for | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
in the second receipts devolution is the clear -- resolution, is the | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
clear ultimatum that if Saddam carries on not co-operating then | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
force should be used. Even as the death toll mounted he stood by his | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
decision. The apology so many people want over Iraq has never been forth | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
coming. This weekend we had a fresh reminder of how unlikely that is. | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
Even if you left Saddam in place in 2003 there would have still been a | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
major problem in Iraq, you can see what happens when you leave the -- | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
Tatar in place, like Assad, it doesn't go away. Mayor Boris Johnson | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
had a different take? If you say seriously that the invasion of 2003 | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
had absolutely nothing to do with the lawlessness and chaos that then | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
took place, then I think you need your head examined. And yet when | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
asked in a poll this weekend which leader would most likely make you | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
vote Labour, twice as many people said Tony Blair as did Ed Miliband. | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
So how did the British public view this man that they once embraced. My | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
guest iskm will you pleasist of the Guardian, and author, and the Times | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
columnist and proponent of intervention in Iraq in 2003 and | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
now. Is it Iraq that makes Tony Blair such a powerful figure? I | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
don't know what you mean by powerful. He excites powerful | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
responses? He certainly does, absolutely, passionate responses. I | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
think an overwhelming number of people think he was desperately | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
wrong about Iraq, and some people think he was a war criminal, I don't | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
take that view. I think he was disastrously wrong I think he has | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
had to justify himself and that dreadful decision ever since. I | :42:33. | :42:34. | |
think it must be very hard to live with. He can't leave it alone. He | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
can't just be quiet about it. He has to persuade himself, I think, that | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
all those people didn't die in vain, that the country hasn't been in | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
turmoil for all these years for no reason. It is Iraq isn't it? I don't | :42:49. | :42:56. | |
know whether, Iraq is a big part of it, but when I was coming on the | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
programme I was looking back at some of the things I was writing about | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
the Iraq War about what I described as Blair hatred. There was a section | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
of opinion, usually writers and other sort of people like this, | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
artists, a feeling that Blair was an utterly fraudulent character who had | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
destroyed some how something important about the way in which | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
politics in Britain worked. Had diminished it down to focus groups, | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
and had essentially given way to a sub-Thatcherite he agenda, that is | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
if you were against Thatcher. And then also there were forces on the | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
right, take the Daily Mail, which in 2010 did this editorial where you | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
remember when Blair did his autobiography and gave ?5 million to | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
armed services charities, they said for once in his lying war mongering | :43:48. | :43:55. | |
career the former Prime Minister has done something right. That level of | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
hate ed is not just about Iraq it is about something other. It is about | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
Tony Blair, accept the terrible phrase as a "change agent". He's | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
associated with a level of change in this country with a lot of people | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
found discombobulating and difficult, there are aspects of his | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
character they don't like either. Because he achieved significant | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
difference in this country? Because the country changed such a lot while | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
he was Prime Minister actually, and he stands in, actually in a funny | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
kind of way as the same way as Polly and I do in a much more diminished | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
way as being the sorts of people who have brought immigrants in lark | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
numbers of this country, as the sort of people who like the European | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
Union, and the sort of people who would have given us | :44:44. | :44:44. | |
Union, and the sort of people who euro, et cetera, et cetera. He was | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
the representative of it. I think that is partly true, of course we do | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
have an 80% right-wing press who detest anything that Labour does and | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
wish to trash his record. What is interesting about him and why there | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
is quite so much hatred he is has been such a bad custodian of his own | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
reputation. First of all he spends his whole time on foreign policy | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
which is his weakest point, he spent very little time talking about the | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
good things he did. The definitive survey of his social policies came | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
out, produced by the LSE, just looking at how much he improved | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
education, poverty, a million pensioners taken out of poverty, | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
Sour Start, childcare, huge social reforms, very important, very | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
successful. You would never guess that from a post-political career | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
given council to the Government of Kazakhstan. That is what is so | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
strange. If behaved like Jimmy Carter and gone and done good works | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
and not made skill squillions of money and not lived in a jet set | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
with highly unsuitable people. If he had given himself to the things he | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
did best and emphasise that part of his time in power, I think he would | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
be seen differently now. Mostly people really care about their | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
legacy, he seems to have squadered it. I will really disappoint you | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
here, Polly is right! A lot of these things, when texts turn up from Tony | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
Blair to Rebekah Brooks that I'm right behind you, there is a cast | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
loyalty going on here between people who ran things that doesn't look | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
good to people outside. Even if the vast bulk of the money he has got he | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
has put into charities, and he has. I don't know about the vast bulk, he | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
still has a huge lot yet. He has. The relationship with the Murdoches | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
is toxic, and peculiar, weird, the stories coming out since, and he has | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
fallen out with Murdoch. Do you think he's unhinged as Boris says? I | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
think pots Blairex after anybody has been -- I think possibly aft eight | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
years in politics it is enough. He is hypernormal in a way, that means | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
he's a bit bonkers, it is a bit odd to have Boris going around telling | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
people they are unhinged. That is enough for now, that is all we have | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
time for tonight, good night. | :47:22. | :47:27. |