13/06/2014 Newsnight


13/06/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.


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Has a decade of Western attempts to bring order

:00:00.:00:07.

The Iraqi army we paid blood and treasure to build is falling

:00:08.:00:15.

Did the 2003 war achieve anything of lasting value at all?

:00:16.:00:26.

A decade on is the country on the way to a violent and bloody breakup?

:00:27.:00:32.

We're devoting tonight's Newsnight to the crisis in Iraq.

:00:33.:00:47.

Extremists swear to continue their journey of destruction

:00:48.:00:49.

across Iraq, taking their fight all the way to Baghdad.

:00:50.:00:53.

Anyone who gets in their way - soldiers or civilians - gets killed.

:00:54.:00:58.

But President Obama tells what is left of Iraq's Government,

:00:59.:01:00.

Today's chaos may have some of its roots in Western failures,

:01:01.:01:07.

but no Western boots will touch Iraqi ground to help now.

:01:08.:01:11.

Tonight we'll hear from Iraq and Washington, asking

:01:12.:01:17.

First with his analysis our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban.

:01:18.:01:28.

After the shock of this week's set backs, Nouri Al-Maliki's Government

:01:29.:01:37.

has started to fight back and he has done so in Samarra, where ISIS

:01:38.:01:44.

fighters arrived this week. It is home to important Shia shrines.

:01:45.:01:48.

Nouri Al-Maliki was in Samarra today. His visit to the city is

:01:49.:01:56.

significant, because it is in the Sunni heartland of Iraq and it is an

:01:57.:01:59.

attempt to show that the armed forces are in control of strategic

:02:00.:02:05.

cities, even to the north of Baghdad and it is a symbolic visit, because

:02:06.:02:12.

it is home to one of Iraq's most sacred Shia shrines and in 2006 an

:02:13.:02:19.

attack there started a sectarian war. There is a determination to

:02:20.:02:25.

prevent that from happening again. ISIS can advance rapidly, because it

:02:26.:02:34.

is a guerrilla army. It headed past Kirkuk, where Kurdish fighters are

:02:35.:02:38.

in control and then tried to take Samarra, where it has met fierce

:02:39.:02:44.

resistance. Some fighters have pushed to the south. But ISIS is

:02:45.:02:52.

probably overstretched and government forces regrouping. In the

:02:53.:02:56.

long-term, I think the odds favour the Iraqi state, which has plenty of

:02:57.:03:02.

resources and advanced weaponry and has some good special operations

:03:03.:03:06.

forces that they can deploy against the militants in the north. The

:03:07.:03:11.

problem is that with today's announcement by Ali al-Sistani we

:03:12.:03:16.

may be entering a new phase where it is not just the Iraqi military that

:03:17.:03:23.

is fighting, but Shia militant and we could enter a new phase of the

:03:24.:03:28.

war. But the military have a long way to go. One deserter who fled to

:03:29.:03:35.

Mosul told the BBC about the collapse of military leadership.

:03:36.:03:41.

Transour commanders did not fight in 2004 I used to see the American

:03:42.:03:50.

officers, all ranks fighting alongside them and leading them. The

:03:51.:03:54.

problem is not because of the soldiers. If they had support,

:03:55.:03:57.

physical and mental, they would fight. But they saw that their

:03:58.:04:05.

commanders didn't fight. And a religious fight back has started

:04:06.:04:12.

too. The Shia clerical leadership issued a call to arms in Karbala.

:04:13.:04:24.

From here we call on all citizens who can carry weapons who can defend

:04:25.:04:30.

the country to volunteer and join the security forces to fulfil this

:04:31.:04:35.

sacred goal. With that, the volunteers headed for the coaches,

:04:36.:04:40.

ready to take the fight to ISIS. Today's sermon carried instantly

:04:41.:04:45.

into action. But empowering sectarian forces may sharpen Iraq's

:04:46.:04:50.

divisions and show up the crumbling of state institutions. It is those

:04:51.:04:54.

that t United States by its initiative hopes to strengthen. The

:04:55.:05:01.

US said it is looking at options to support the Nouri Al-Maliki

:05:02.:05:05.

Government, but America's quid pro quo is that Iraq's leader behave in

:05:06.:05:10.

a less sectarian fashion. We are not going to be able to do it for them.

:05:11.:05:16.

And given the very difficult history that we have seen in Iraq, I think

:05:17.:05:24.

that any objective observer would recognise that in the absence of

:05:25.:05:30.

accommodation among the factions in Iraq, various military actions by

:05:31.:05:37.

the United States, by any outside nation, are not going to solve those

:05:38.:05:41.

problems over the long-term and deliver the stability we need. So is

:05:42.:05:47.

America about to mount air strikes in support of a Government that has

:05:48.:05:52.

been backed by Iran? Well we are not there yet. But the US will step up

:05:53.:05:58.

deliveries of weapons, more intelligence too and try to

:05:59.:06:03.

co-ordinate the actions of Iraqi forces better. But if the position

:06:04.:06:07.

of Nouri Al-Maliki's Government continues to slide, it is possible

:06:08.:06:11.

that American air attacks could go ahead. ISIS has not been stopped,

:06:12.:06:19.

but a fight back has started. It extended to the Government blocking

:06:20.:06:27.

some Jihadist twirt -- Twitter accounts. But what could follow is

:06:28.:06:34.

prolonged civil strife. Paul Wood has been on the front line and he is

:06:35.:06:39.

in Iraq for us. You were in Kirkuk today what, did you witness? Well

:06:40.:06:48.

until yesterday, Kirkuk was shared between the Kurdish and the Iraqi

:06:49.:06:54.

army. But the Iraqi army simply melted away and the Kurds assumed

:06:55.:06:59.

control and that means that the front line now, the last line of

:07:00.:07:06.

defence against ISIS is the Kurdish peshmerga and two people were killed

:07:07.:07:10.

yesterday. What struck me yesterday was the commander there, a colonel,

:07:11.:07:17.

showing me a car park full of armoured vehicles and tanks

:07:18.:07:24.

abandoned by the Iraqi army. There was a huge pile of helmets. The

:07:25.:07:29.

army, which has been funded by the Americans to the tune of $15

:07:30.:07:34.

billion, simply did not stand andifies in places like Mosul. --

:07:35.:07:42.

stand and fight. Nouri Al-Maliki said this is where the fight back

:07:43.:07:47.

begins. But we spoke to a Sunni tribal sheik who, leads a militia,

:07:48.:07:53.

this is a man who two months ago had his son, wife and two members of his

:07:54.:08:00.

family murdered by ISIS. He is not going to cut and run. But he said,

:08:01.:08:04.

unless the British and Americans help us with air strikes, I don't

:08:05.:08:11.

know how long we can hold out. What is ISIS trying to achieve? Take over

:08:12.:08:16.

the whole country or just create chaos. Not just the whole country,

:08:17.:08:22.

they want to reshape the Middle East and dissolving the borders created

:08:23.:08:29.

after the World Wars and create a new state. But these the shock

:08:30.:08:34.

troops of a wider Sunni uprising targeting a Government that many

:08:35.:08:39.

feel is sectarian and dominated by Shi'ites. The terrorist that ISIS

:08:40.:08:51.

inspires means many Shi'ites are grouping around sectarian ground.

:08:52.:09:02.

With us now is Liam Fox and PJ Crowley, a former US sectarian of

:09:03.:09:10.

state and And I'm joined by the international relations direct for

:09:11.:09:19.

Iraq's ruling party. Liam Fox, isn't it an abdication of the UK and the

:09:20.:09:24.

United States to stand back and think about what to do when this is

:09:25.:09:28.

up fold something First, I think the Nouri Al-Maliki Government is

:09:29.:09:32.

suffering from the fact that it didn't agree a status of forces

:09:33.:09:35.

agreement with the United States, which would have led to the Iraqi

:09:36.:09:40.

officers continuing to be mentored and trained and there is a price for

:09:41.:09:44.

that. There is a price for the armaments that have gone into Syria

:09:45.:09:48.

to support rebels there. It is not clear what the Government of Iraq

:09:49.:09:54.

wants. It is vital however that ISIS are stopped, because the

:09:55.:10:00.

consequences of them achieving their objective would be catastrophic.

:10:01.:10:05.

Although Barack Obama has said that America wants s to stand back, were

:10:06.:10:10.

Nouri Al-Maliki to ask the United States for something like air power,

:10:11.:10:13.

it would be difficult for the president to resist that, given the

:10:14.:10:19.

consequences of what ISIS's success could be. The west must stop them.

:10:20.:10:23.

If they do not, then someone else could step in, Iran? You point to

:10:24.:10:31.

one of the potential consequences of the success of ISIS, in drawing

:10:32.:10:38.

other powers into the struggle in a catastrophic sectarian war. What

:10:39.:10:45.

does -- What does stopping them look like? Boots on the ground? The

:10:46.:10:48.

Iraqis must use the military forces they have and we have seen them in

:10:49.:10:53.

the past being able to take on insurgents and they should be able

:10:54.:10:57.

to do so again. But there is not that much sign of that, the Iraqi

:10:58.:11:01.

army has been melting away at this stage would you rule out putting

:11:02.:11:07.

western boots on the ground to stop ISIS, if that is the priority? I

:11:08.:11:12.

think there will be extreme reluctance by any western

:11:13.:11:15.

governments to do so. But I don't think at the moment given the

:11:16.:11:18.

potential consequences think at the moment given the

:11:19.:11:22.

success that anything can be ruled out. Although I do agree that

:11:23.:11:26.

success that anything can be ruled does look as though the Iraqi

:11:27.:11:30.

Government are starting some sort of fight back, not withstanding the

:11:31.:11:33.

pathetic efforts of their forces so far. PJ Crowley, your president

:11:34.:11:43.

pulled out troops too quickly and is now sitting in the White House

:11:44.:11:49.

thinking about the consequence and not prepare d to do anything? Well,

:11:50.:11:55.

first Iraq is a sovereign country and made its own decision not to

:11:56.:11:59.

meet the US conditions for a follow on mission. Obviously if we had

:12:00.:12:04.

10,000 US or British forces in Iraq, there would be useful. However, this

:12:05.:12:09.

was a decision that made in Iraq and there was no basis for the US to

:12:10.:12:15.

stay. That said, a lot will depend on first as Liam Fox said what the

:12:16.:12:22.

do the Iraqis do and what does ISIL do? Air I power could be an option,

:12:23.:12:28.

but you have to have a clear battle line and actually targets to hit. If

:12:29.:12:34.

ISIL melts back into cities, you could attack them but you woil

:12:35.:12:40.

probably injure or kill a lot of civilians. Your party was elected,

:12:41.:12:46.

but they did not want the west to stay and now Nouri Al-Maliki has

:12:47.:12:51.

failed entirely to bring the country together? What we have now is a

:12:52.:13:01.

situation where there is a militant terrorist group terroristising the

:13:02.:13:10.

-- terrorising the population. The cry from Ali al-Sistani goes to all

:13:11.:13:15.

the Iraqi community, Shias, Sunnis and Kurds to fight and defend

:13:16.:13:21.

themselves against this scourge. But President Obama and many, are they

:13:22.:13:26.

wrong too characterise like that as Nouri Al-Maliki's failure to bring

:13:27.:13:31.

together the two factions in the country? He has ruled as a

:13:32.:13:37.

sectarian, do you deny that? Yes, absolutely I deny that. Nouri

:13:38.:13:42.

Al-Maliki has tried to bring all sides together. He formed the state

:13:43.:13:47.

of law coalition which is a nonsectarian identity to bring all

:13:48.:13:51.

sides together. But the extremists Sunnis have been putting pressure on

:13:52.:13:56.

the moderates to try and derail that. Well, President Obama is

:13:57.:14:05.

wrong, Nouri Al-Maliki has not been sectarian? Well I think, Nouri

:14:06.:14:11.

Al-Maliki is behaving like a statesman this week, it is eight

:14:12.:14:14.

years too late in my opinion. He spent a lot of time attacking his

:14:15.:14:21.

Sunni political rivals. But most importantly, he has not taken the

:14:22.:14:27.

necessary steps as leader of Iraq to integrate the security forces, Kurd,

:14:28.:14:32.

Shia and Sunni, into an effective force that can be a model for the

:14:33.:14:37.

way governments have to function if Iraq is going to get stronger. There

:14:38.:14:44.

is no denying that, we have seen in just three days the army, fall away

:14:45.:14:49.

and people now say there is no such thing as the Iraqi government.

:14:50.:15:01.

Firstly, this extremist militant group, ISIS, has been working

:15:02.:15:07.

because it's an irregular army, has been working away and there are

:15:08.:15:11.

failures of the Iraqi army, there is no denying that. However, this

:15:12.:15:15.

terrorist group will not get any further. This is not failures of an

:15:16.:15:20.

army that you admit. We have seen pictures, the army has dissolved,

:15:21.:15:24.

people have escaped, they've ran away. The civilian population is

:15:25.:15:28.

left with no protection from these people. You talk as if it's a small

:15:29.:15:35.

group. This is an extremist, almost looks like an extremist army

:15:36.:15:39.

rampaging across the country. The point is this is - Maliki said this

:15:40.:15:44.

is a conspiracy and it's a conspiracy that's been - these

:15:45.:15:49.

people, these terrorists have been given material support, weapons,

:15:50.:15:52.

there is a vacuum which was created in Syria which allowed them to move

:15:53.:15:55.

across borders. There are no borders any more between Syria and Iraq.

:15:56.:16:02.

They are opportunists using this. They have shown their true face,

:16:03.:16:08.

which is an ugly face with executions of civilians today and

:16:09.:16:12.

yesterday. It is certainly an ugly and appalling face as we have all

:16:13.:16:15.

seen. Liam Fox, should it not be the case, if you care as you do, you

:16:16.:16:20.

will not rule out military action but actually if you care as

:16:21.:16:24.

passionately as you do about stopping these people, military

:16:25.:16:27.

intervention from the West is really the only way to do this? I don't

:16:28.:16:32.

think it's the only way to do it but I think it would be wrong to rule

:16:33.:16:35.

anything completely out at this point. I think there's been a

:16:36.:16:38.

failure of the Government. The point you made was correct, there's been a

:16:39.:16:43.

failure of the Government in Iraq. They failed to integrate their

:16:44.:16:46.

population sufficiently. They failed to engender ideas of Iraqi

:16:47.:16:50.

nationalism that would trump sectarian divide. Has there been a

:16:51.:16:54.

failure by the US and the UK, are you disappointed the British and

:16:55.:16:58.

American governments so far have ruled out military intervention and

:16:59.:17:02.

that's not what you suggest? Well, of course it was the Iraqis who

:17:03.:17:07.

actually didn't want to continue the military relationship. As of now...

:17:08.:17:11.

They're paying a price for that now. The question in the coming days will

:17:12.:17:17.

be whether Maliki can rise up as a statesman at this late stage,

:17:18.:17:19.

whether the military given the investment that's been made in their

:17:20.:17:22.

equipment and training can fight back and that remains to be seen and

:17:23.:17:26.

then I think the situation will have to be watched closely by the

:17:27.:17:31.

international community because the price of failure and the failure to

:17:32.:17:36.

confront and defeat ISIS could be catastrophic and could be felt well

:17:37.:17:44.

beyond that region. OK. Thank you all very much for joining us.

:17:45.:17:57.

The appalling violence is driven, at least in part,

:17:58.:17:59.

by grievance between Sunni and Shia Muslims - that's been built up

:18:00.:18:02.

over 14 centuries, and has not been contained by borders that have been

:18:03.:18:05.

Understanding the religious patchwork is crucial

:18:06.:18:07.

The Iraqi city of Karbala, here a dispute over the succession to the

:18:08.:18:20.

prophet Mohammed led to a battle in the 7th century that divided the

:18:21.:18:28.

Islamic world. Pilgrims still come here.

:18:29.:18:38.

From the 16th century to the 20th, the Ottoman empire was three

:18:39.:18:49.

separate Provinces. In the north with a Kurdish population, Sunni

:18:50.:18:53.

Baghdad and Basra in the south. A historic division to which Iraq now

:18:54.:18:58.

seems to be returning. The British invaded in 1914.en when

:18:59.:19:03.

The Empire collapsed, Britain and France carved the region up between

:19:04.:19:07.

them, drawing lines in the sand that fixed the international borders we

:19:08.:19:13.

know today. Britain bound the three old Provinces together to form the

:19:14.:19:17.

kingdom of Iraq, installing a new pro-British monarch from the Sunni

:19:18.:19:22.

dynasty whose cousins still rule neighbouring Jordan. The King was

:19:23.:19:28.

killed in a coup in 1958. A second coup five years later brought the

:19:29.:19:32.

Ba'ath Party to power and eventually Saddam Hussein.

:19:33.:19:39.

After the Gulf War of 19191 Iraqi Shias in the south rose against a

:19:40.:19:42.

weakened Saddam Hussein with US and British encouragement. The rebellion

:19:43.:19:47.

was brutally suppressed. Thousands were killed. The entire Shia

:19:48.:19:57.

population cowed. Minority Sunni hoity was restored. The overthrow of

:19:58.:20:00.

Saddam Hussein brought Shia majority rule to Iraq for the first time. It

:20:01.:20:05.

sent shockwaves around the Sunni Arab world, prompting fears of a

:20:06.:20:09.

so-called Shia crescent spreading through the region, bringing the

:20:10.:20:21.

influence of an old enemy, Iran. With us now is Roula Khalaf, foreign

:20:22.:20:27.

editor at the Financial Times. Despite the appalling violence is

:20:28.:20:33.

there a logic to Iraq breaking up? Not necessarily a logic. I think

:20:34.:20:42.

there might be enough ability - what I have noticed, is that not only in

:20:43.:20:48.

this crisis, but particularly in this crisis, every ethnic and

:20:49.:20:51.

religious group in Iraq is thinking a lot more about its own survival,

:20:52.:20:55.

its own existence and not about the existence of the state. If you see

:20:56.:21:01.

the reaction of the Shia, the real resistance is taking place where

:21:02.:21:07.

there is a Shia shrine. Nobody's tried to fight for Mosul. The Kurds

:21:08.:21:15.

did not push down from Kurdistan to try to retake Mosul. They went for

:21:16.:21:21.

Kirkuk. The logic is developing within the various groups in Iraq

:21:22.:21:25.

that perhaps we need to secure our own territory. Safety is leading

:21:26.:21:30.

people to turn inwards, but the country was an artificial construct

:21:31.:21:34.

in the first place. That's true but in the mooegs a lot of countries --

:21:35.:21:38.

in the Middle East a lot of countries, we can say dreamt up by

:21:39.:21:41.

foreign powers, the borders were dreamt up by foreign powers. We must

:21:42.:21:47.

not underestimate the extent to which national identity does develop

:21:48.:21:51.

and I find that people in the Middle East are actually attached to

:21:52.:21:56.

borders. A lot more attached to borders than western analysts tend

:21:57.:22:00.

to think. Isn't one of the really dangerous curiosities about this

:22:01.:22:04.

situation is we are seeing very unusual, surprising alliances

:22:05.:22:07.

developing, enemies becoming friends. The US and Assad being on

:22:08.:22:13.

the same side. Absolutely. This is the complexity of the Middle East

:22:14.:22:17.

today, of shifting alliances, shifting sands. In this crisis, for

:22:18.:22:24.

example, the US and Iran today find themselves on the same side. But do

:22:25.:22:29.

they really want to work together? Not necessarily. Iran's priority is

:22:30.:22:35.

the Shia in Iraq. The US's priority is the Iraqi state and the

:22:36.:22:42.

territorial integrity of Iraq. And a power-sharing arrangement between

:22:43.:22:47.

Iraq's various communities. Briefly, with your insights, are you pretty

:22:48.:22:53.

convinced there will be a split? I think that what you could see is for

:22:54.:23:00.

a while a sort of defacto partition, and perhaps then a political deal on

:23:01.:23:05.

a federal state. Thank you so much for coming in tonight.

:23:06.:23:19.

Wherever the pieces fall, there is little sign that the West

:23:20.:23:21.

has any intention of spilling its own blood on Iraqi soil again but

:23:22.:23:24.

the stain from the political fight from more than ten years ago still

:23:25.:23:27.

Iraq has weapons that could be activated within 45 minutes. We have

:23:28.:23:35.

never marched before. The numbers were huge, filling the wide streets

:23:36.:23:38.

of central London and stretching for several miles. We will stay on task

:23:39.:23:42.

until we have achieved our objective. Saddam Hussein, your days

:23:43.:23:50.

are numbered is the catchy refrain. Shock and awe was what the Americans

:23:51.:23:53.

promised, that's what they're delivering. This is how regime

:23:54.:23:58.

change was going to be defined today. It was a breathtaking image.

:23:59.:24:06.

John McTernan is a former special adviser to Tony Blair and previously

:24:07.:24:09.

And Clare Short is the former International Development

:24:10.:24:19.

Secretary who resigned from Tony Blair's Cabinet back in May 2003 in

:24:20.:24:22.

Surely you must deep down in your heart of hearts now have some

:24:23.:24:41.

doubts? Why should I have any doubts at all? We create a democracy in

:24:42.:24:48.

Iraq, there's a general election recently when people queued to vote,

:24:49.:24:52.

even though they knew, at the threat of their own lives from the

:24:53.:24:56.

terrorists, our job now is to go back in to support the Democrats, to

:24:57.:25:02.

support the Maliki Government and the Kurds in the autonomous region

:25:03.:25:08.

in the north. When you see terrorists executing civilians, you

:25:09.:25:12.

have no doubts, not a single shred, not even pausing for thought that

:25:13.:25:17.

maybe Britain was wrong? So what you are saying is we should have left a

:25:18.:25:23.

fascist dictator in place, a dictator who was committing genocide

:25:24.:25:28.

in his own country, gassing Arabs, and Kurds in the north and that

:25:29.:25:32.

would be better because then ISIS wouldn't be around now? That's

:25:33.:25:35.

immoral. I think that's completely immoral, that position. You would

:25:36.:25:39.

even argue we go back in to protect the scraps of what we tried to

:25:40.:25:42.

create? It's not scraps. This is a country with millions of people who

:25:43.:25:45.

just voted in a general election. People who wanted to vote in a

:25:46.:25:50.

general election. They're human beings there whose democracy we

:25:51.:25:53.

helped create, we need to help sustain it. If we don't do it now,

:25:54.:25:58.

this is a region-wide conflict now, the reason Iran is sending the

:25:59.:26:04.

Revolutionary Guard to the border is they understand the danger for the

:26:05.:26:09.

region. If we stand back this keeps on going. We got rid of a dictator

:26:10.:26:14.

and established democracy, the terrorists are attacking democracy.

:26:15.:26:16.

We have an interest there. Democracy. Clare Short, what do you

:26:17.:26:23.

make of that? I think that's not worth listening to. The truth of the

:26:24.:26:27.

matter is, I mean, this isn't the only cause, but because of all the

:26:28.:26:32.

deceit about getting to war, the preparations for the post-conflict

:26:33.:26:36.

phase were not properly made, or at least those that were made in the

:26:37.:26:43.

UN, in the State Department were thrown away and a well-organised

:26:44.:26:49.

stable state was never created and sectarianism was unleashed in the

:26:50.:26:55.

Maliki Government, and ISIS is partly succeeding because the Sunni

:26:56.:27:02.

people are so ailianated. So there were -- alienated, so were grave

:27:03.:27:06.

errors in the route to war and the lies led to a failure to prepare for

:27:07.:27:11.

afterwards, a properly organised procedure to try and help the people

:27:12.:27:16.

of Iraq, get rid of Saddam Hussein could have got international support

:27:17.:27:19.

for the reconstruction of Iraq which would have been a totally different

:27:20.:27:23.

operation. But isn't part of the problem that people like you who

:27:24.:27:28.

disagreed so much after the fact of the invasion made it politically

:27:29.:27:34.

impossible for politicians like Barack Obama and the Government here

:27:35.:27:38.

to stay the course? You were urging them to cut and run, they weren't

:27:39.:27:44.

able to stay and create a stable and secure democracy? No, that's

:27:45.:27:48.

complete nonsense too. I didn't have any influence about Obama's

:27:49.:27:52.

decision, that was - he was elected on a commitment to get out of Iraq

:27:53.:27:59.

and kept to that commitment. That was partly because it was a sort of

:28:00.:28:04.

fruitless exercise with endless killing and dying. No, that doesn't

:28:05.:28:10.

stack up at all. John? What? Well, what do you make of that suggestion?

:28:11.:28:17.

You worked in the early formation of the Iraqi Government, what Clare

:28:18.:28:20.

Short suggests is there was never any proper attempt to secure a

:28:21.:28:23.

decent, stable functioning Government that could have been able

:28:24.:28:26.

to cope with what it would have to withstand? No, there has always been

:28:27.:28:33.

a complex set of coalitions there. For example, there's been a Kurdish,

:28:34.:28:39.

socialist President of Iraq working with the Maliki Government and the

:28:40.:28:43.

other parties. There is undoubtedly true the Prime Minister of Iraq made

:28:44.:28:50.

a disastrous decision when he refused to sign a agreement with the

:28:51.:28:54.

Americans, the situation would be different if there were 10,000

:28:55.:28:58.

American troops in Iraq who would be available to mobilise. That was the

:28:59.:29:04.

strategic error by Maliki. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be

:29:05.:29:08.

supporting him now. It doesn't mean that we should be abandoning... How

:29:09.:29:11.

can we trust him now, if as you say and as many people have suggested,

:29:12.:29:16.

that he has become a sectarian leader, he has been divisive, how

:29:17.:29:21.

could we trust him now? He didn't get rewarded at the general

:29:22.:29:23.

election. There is a democracy there. The public voted for

:29:24.:29:26.

different parties. A Government has to be created that brings together

:29:27.:29:31.

all the parties in Iraq and we see what's happened in the Kurdish

:29:32.:29:35.

region. They've taken control of Kirkuk. The army that represents

:29:36.:29:40.

both the main parties there, who have had in the past a big civil

:29:41.:29:43.

war, they united after the civil war, they've had democracy for over

:29:44.:29:48.

20 years. They can defend and retake territory from the terrorists. There

:29:49.:29:55.

is a model there in Iraq... We are short on time. Clare Short, what

:29:56.:29:59.

would you want to see now? John wants us to go back in, what would

:30:00.:30:04.

you do, leave it? No, but I don't see any military intervention that

:30:05.:30:08.

is going to solve anything. By the way, President Obama has said no

:30:09.:30:12.

troops on the ground but they're looking at drones or bombing, but

:30:13.:30:18.

who do you bomb? As one of your previous people said, moss system a

:30:19.:30:22.

city of two million -- Mosul is a city of two million people, you

:30:23.:30:25.

can't go bombing people, that doesn't rescue the situation. We are

:30:26.:30:30.

in an incredibly complex situation. ISIS isn't doing it alone. It's got

:30:31.:30:35.

support from the Sunni community because they're so alienated. The

:30:36.:30:39.

thing flows over to Syria. You have to start... We must leave it there.

:30:40.:30:44.

Thank you both. It's a complicated situation.

:30:45.:30:48.

Now, on 7th March the 10.00pm news and Newsnight broadcast

:30:49.:30:50.

a report alleging a possible police cover-up over an allegedly corrupt

:30:51.:30:54.

The claims should have been put to the Met,

:30:55.:30:58.

The Met, in fact, says it did not claim in its evidence to the Ellison

:30:59.:31:03.

Review that there were no records of the officer's links to a separate

:31:04.:31:07.

investigation into the murder of Daniel Morgan and it does not accept

:31:08.:31:10.

that the BBC produced evidence of a possible cover-up.

:31:11.:31:12.

We were wrong to suggest the document we showed demonstrated

:31:13.:31:14.

such a cover-up and we apologise for this. Up with

:31:15.:31:29.

thing this World Cup doesn't have is the voice of football. We thought

:31:30.:31:33.

John Motson should have a chance to be heard. Here he is with his latest

:31:34.:31:46.

extraordinary World Cup story. Age 42 the Columbian keeper suspect just

:31:47.:31:51.

the older player u he is a link to the tournament darkest moment. He

:31:52.:31:58.

was a back up player in the 19 94 World Cup squad that the Columbian

:31:59.:32:02.

nation believed was destined for greatness. But the country's drug

:32:03.:32:09.

cartels had pumped money into the league and allowed a talented crop

:32:10.:32:14.

of players to thrive. But they didn't just bring money. The players

:32:15.:32:19.

were surrounded by violence, intimidation and what was an

:32:20.:32:24.

intolerable pressure to succeed. Two straight defeats saw Columbia

:32:25.:32:36.

eliminated and an own goal by the captain Escabar led to the defeat.

:32:37.:32:43.

Ten days later he was shot dead in his home down. A - town. A

:32:44.:32:51.

disastrous campaign ended with the player losing his life. The current

:32:52.:32:56.

squad is the country's most fans Yipped since that time -- fancied

:32:57.:33:06.

since that time. But Columbia is a country much changed from one pr

:33:07.:33:07.

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