12/06/2014 Newsnight


12/06/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 12/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello from New York, the Iraq Government's frantic appeal to the

:00:00.:00:12.

United States for military help against the Islamist guerrillas who

:00:13.:00:16.

captured two of the country's key cities is formally under

:00:17.:00:19.

consideration by the White House. But the former Secretary of State,

:00:20.:00:23.

Hillary Clinton, says the only reasonable answer at this stage is a

:00:24.:00:29.

resounding no. No, I agree with the White House's resection and

:00:30.:00:36.

reluctance to do the kind of military activities that the Mall

:00:37.:00:43.

Government is requesting, namely fighter aircraft. We hear from

:00:44.:00:47.

Hillary Clinton why Putin is dangerous and why Scotland ought to

:00:48.:00:52.

stay in the union and whether women would run the world better than men,

:00:53.:00:55.

and of course, on whether she will run for the White House herself.

:00:56.:00:59.

How would America have been different if you had beaten Obama to

:01:00.:01:04.

the White House? (Laughs) I don't know. And we will never know. You

:01:05.:01:16.

must care? We will never know Jeremy. We will talk about America's

:01:17.:01:20.

place in the world with two people who should be concerned, and we will

:01:21.:01:24.

talk about the Prime Minister of free Iraq.

:01:25.:01:35.

# Ain't no valley low enough # Ain't no river wide enough

:01:36.:01:41.

She just put down the book she was reading and walked the entire length

:01:42.:01:46.

of the law library and said. If you are going to keep looking at me and

:01:47.:01:51.

me looking back, we better know each other. I'm not some little woman

:01:52.:01:59.

standing by her man like Tammy Wynette. I could have fulfilled my

:02:00.:02:06.

profession which I entered before my husband was in public life. I have

:02:07.:02:09.

so many opportunities from this country, I just don't want to see us

:02:10.:02:14.

fall backwards. I endorse him and throw my full support behind him.

:02:15.:02:27.

The United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama Bin

:02:28.:02:35.

Laden, the leader of Al-Qaeda. Wait you want me to tell you what my

:02:36.:02:38.

husband thinks, he's not the Secretary of State, I am. Now, until

:02:39.:02:50.

last year the latest crisis in Iraq would have been another problem for

:02:51.:02:55.

the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama took office

:02:56.:02:59.

promising to end the war on Iraq, well he has certainly withdrawn

:03:00.:03:03.

plenty of US troops, but the war in Iraq has suddenly got a whole lot

:03:04.:03:07.

worse, the threat from radical Islam may have been greatly exaggerated

:03:08.:03:11.

when George W Bush invaded there, but it is real enough right now. In

:03:12.:03:15.

the last few days radical Islamists have taken two important cities. I

:03:16.:03:20.

have been to see Hillary Clinton, who has just written her account as

:03:21.:03:26.

time as America's top diplomat. Mrs Clinton, the Government of Iraq is

:03:27.:03:30.

said to be appealing to the United States for help in fighting the

:03:31.:03:34.

problem that it has got with Islamic insurgents. Should military help be

:03:35.:03:40.

given? Not at this time, no. I agree with the White House's rejection and

:03:41.:03:47.

reluctance to do the kind of military activities that the Mall

:03:48.:03:53.

Government is requesting, namely fighter aircraft to provide close

:03:54.:04:03.

support for -- Almeria Government to provide fighter aircraft to vied to

:04:04.:04:11.

provide the support. Nouri Al-Maliki has to show he's prepared to do the

:04:12.:04:17.

job. The army which hasn't been able to hold territory had an injection

:04:18.:04:23.

of discipline, something the United States has been trying to help with,

:04:24.:04:27.

Nouri Al-Maliki has to be prepared to demonstrate unequiffly that he's

:04:28.:04:31.

a leader for all Iraqis not a sectarian slice of the country. But

:04:32.:04:34.

the White House is saying no option is ruled out? That's what they

:04:35.:04:39.

should say, because part of what they are trying to do. You think

:04:40.:04:43.

they should rule some things out? At this time, yes. Because the

:04:44.:04:49.

conditions precedent have not been accepted or set by Nouri Al-Maliki.

:04:50.:04:53.

What the White House is doing is making it very clear to him what

:04:54.:04:58.

they would have to say, and not that they would necessarily provide the

:04:59.:05:01.

kind of support he is asking for, but the sort of the support that the

:05:02.:05:04.

United States believes would be appropriate. But it would be

:05:05.:05:07.

inappropriate to send in ground forces of any kind? Yes, that is not

:05:08.:05:11.

going to happen. Never, under any circumstances? I never say never,

:05:12.:05:15.

because one doesn't know the world is so unpredictable. But certainly

:05:16.:05:19.

not in any foreseeable future that I'm aware of. When you look at what

:05:20.:05:25.

is happening in Iraq do you feel guilty supporting the invasion? I

:05:26.:05:29.

made a mistake giving the Bush administration the authority I voted

:05:30.:05:33.

for. It was not used as I expected it to be used and the entire

:05:34.:05:38.

implementation strategy was flawed. So, yes, I made a mistake, and I

:05:39.:05:43.

deeply regret the consequences. That country wasn't broken before the

:05:44.:05:48.

invasion? It was a broken country, even though it had a dictator. Who

:05:49.:05:54.

held it together? Hoi who by force and brutally would keep it together.

:05:55.:05:58.

He had invaded Kuwait and gassed the Kurds. He was no shining example of

:05:59.:06:03.

sovereignty and territorial integrity. Nobody suggests he was a

:06:04.:06:07.

nice guy. He was worse than not a nice guy. But that is not the

:06:08.:06:12.

debate. The debate now is it was done, the invasion occurred, he was

:06:13.:06:16.

deposed, the Iraqi people were given a chance to chart a different

:06:17.:06:20.

course, some of them have done quite well, the Kurds in the north have

:06:21.:06:23.

done extremely well. But the Government that came in through the

:06:24.:06:29.

elections, which were deemed internationally acceptable has not

:06:30.:06:32.

done what it needed to do to try to unify the country, bring Sunni and

:06:33.:06:36.

Shi'ite alike, bring the different factions within together. Compare

:06:37.:06:41.

Iraq, where there was intervention, with Syria where there was no

:06:42.:06:44.

intervention? Just shows you how hard it is to make these choice,

:06:45.:06:48.

which is why I'm calling the book Hard Choices, because I did advocate

:06:49.:06:54.

for limited but focussed action in Syria to try to vet, train and equip

:06:55.:07:01.

moderate opponents of Assad. And you were overruled by the President? I

:07:02.:07:05.

was overruled, in part because of the lessons from Iraq. It is hard to

:07:06.:07:11.

get a little bit pregnant, so to speak, in being involved in these

:07:12.:07:16.

countries' internal conflicts, but I did think there was a potential

:07:17.:07:19.

role. Now of course, what I say in the book was a wicked problem has

:07:20.:07:26.

become even wickedier. How much was the decision not to get involved in

:07:27.:07:31.

Syria influenced by the fact that the British parliament held that

:07:32.:07:34.

surprising vote not to have any military intervention? I'm sure that

:07:35.:07:40.

influenced it, because that vote was some days prior to the President

:07:41.:07:44.

having to make a final decision, and it was, there was a series of votes

:07:45.:07:48.

as I recall what happened in the British parliament. The individual

:07:49.:07:53.

votes were defeated, but if you had added up all the votes for

:07:54.:07:56.

everything that would have been a positive, you could have gotten to

:07:57.:08:00.

that, but for all kinds of reasons and I don't pretend to understand

:08:01.:08:05.

the intricacies of British politics or parliamentary procedure, it was a

:08:06.:08:08.

defeat for the idea that there should be intervention. And that

:08:09.:08:11.

influenced the American decision not to intervene? I believe it did. I

:08:12.:08:16.

was out of office by then, but it is my understanding that it certainly

:08:17.:08:20.

was taken into account. Can we talk a little about Russia. You famously

:08:21.:08:26.

pressed the "reset" button, are you embarrassed now by that gesture? No,

:08:27.:08:30.

I thought it was a brilliant stroke, which in retrospect appears even

:08:31.:08:34.

more so, look at what we accomplished, between the Russian

:08:35.:08:38.

invasion of Georgia in August 2008, which of course torpedoed relations

:08:39.:08:43.

between the United States and Russia for good reason. We come into office

:08:44.:08:50.

and for that period of time if you will, Medvedev is President and

:08:51.:08:53.

Putin is Prime Minister. There were jobs we wanted to get done. We

:08:54.:08:58.

wanted to get Russia on board with tough sanctions against Iran. We

:08:59.:09:02.

wanted to have a new start treaty and limit nuclear weapons. We wanted

:09:03.:09:06.

their help in transiting across their huge country to get things

:09:07.:09:10.

into Afghanistan. We got all that done. Putin comes back, look where

:09:11.:09:14.

we are now. He invaded another country. So yes, while we had that

:09:15.:09:20.

moment we seized it, we used it and succeeded. Do you think Putin is a

:09:21.:09:25.

dangerous man? He can be. Is he a man who exploits weakness? I think

:09:26.:09:30.

he acts out of his perceived weakness of Russia. I believe his

:09:31.:09:40.

goal is to reassert Russian power, he would be perfectly happy if t

:09:41.:09:44.

Soviet Union could be reconstituted, but he's enough of a realist to know

:09:45.:09:48.

that is not going to happen. He wants to in so far as possible

:09:49.:09:54.

control Soviet Republics in central Asia and intimidate those in Europe.

:09:55.:10:00.

Like any person, of course, with a view that's what power should be

:10:01.:10:05.

used for, if he sees weakness or disorder, because I think he was as

:10:06.:10:10.

affected by what he perceived as disorder in Ukraine than by

:10:11.:10:14.

weakness, he acted in large measure because of what happens happening in

:10:15.:10:21.

Maiden Square, of course he will explore the boundaries as far as he

:10:22.:10:25.

can. You made some strong comments about Ukraine, but you would concede

:10:26.:10:29.

that Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence? Of course I

:10:30.:10:33.

would not. You wouldn't? There can't be spheres of influence in today's

:10:34.:10:36.

world, particularly post World War ll. Not even the case of Cuba and

:10:37.:10:42.

the United States? They are clearly not in our sphere of influence. I

:10:43.:10:47.

talk about that in the book, let's end the embargo and go back with

:10:48.:10:51.

them. Russia wants a sphere of influence, that is what this is all

:10:52.:10:54.

about, Georgia don't you dare choose as a sovereign nation that you

:10:55.:10:58.

wouldn't to look toward Europe. He has legitimate concerns doesn't he?

:10:59.:11:02.

No he does not, think of the energy he is using to plot and compeer

:11:03.:11:07.

against the freedom that -- conspire against the freedom the people have

:11:08.:11:12.

gained because of the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia could be a

:11:13.:11:15.

truly great country, not a bullying country, not totally dependant on

:11:16.:11:20.

oil and gas and using it to intimidate its neighbours but he has

:11:21.:11:24.

made a different voice choice, and it is regrettable for Russia. Every

:11:25.:11:27.

country has vital interests doesn't it? Absolutely. Isn't the security

:11:28.:11:32.

of Ukraine a vital interest for Russia? No it is not. I mean Ukraine

:11:33.:11:42.

is a customer for Gazprom, Ukraine has Russian ethnic, Russian

:11:43.:11:46.

speakers, so there are cultural connections, but Ukraine became an

:11:47.:11:51.

independent country. Of course Russia can try to partner with

:11:52.:11:55.

Ukraine, but Russia should not feel that it can give orders to Ukraine,

:11:56.:11:59.

and if Ukraine doesn't abide by those orders it can take aggressive

:12:00.:12:03.

action. That is not acceptable. When you were running American foreign

:12:04.:12:09.

policy, you must have thought what are America's vital interests here,

:12:10.:12:12.

and you must have thought about something else. Now at the time the

:12:13.:12:17.

British were the imperial power in the world someone like Palmerston

:12:18.:12:22.

could have given you a one-sentence definition about what the British

:12:23.:12:25.

Empire was about. What is America about in the world now? We are

:12:26.:12:29.

certainly not about an empire, we never have been about an empire, it

:12:30.:12:32.

is one of the very important differences that sets us apart. We

:12:33.:12:36.

do take military action as you know, and then we go back home. But what

:12:37.:12:41.

we are about is promoting our values, absolutely. I believe there

:12:42.:12:47.

should be a contest of values. If Russia believes its system is better

:12:48.:12:50.

than the west's, that Ukraine should not be part of the European Union,

:12:51.:12:54.

getting to make choices for itself, let the people of Ukraine hear both

:12:55.:12:59.

sides, and figure out what they want to do, not have it imposed. I hope

:13:00.:13:03.

what we can return to is that kind of debate about the future in the

:13:04.:13:07.

21st century. The United States will certainly be a vigorous proponent of

:13:08.:13:13.

what we believe and want to see happen. How would you summarise what

:13:14.:13:20.

the vital interests and values are? It starts with security, number one

:13:21.:13:23.

for any Government, we need to protect our people and friends and

:13:24.:13:27.

partners and allies around the world. Secondly we have to promote

:13:28.:13:31.

global prosperity and a rules-based order that needs to be updated to

:13:32.:13:36.

fit the modern conditions in the global economy, to promote

:13:37.:13:40.

broad-based inclusive prosperity. Thirdly, we want to promote and

:13:41.:13:44.

protect human rights, we think that is part of our DNA, our mission. So

:13:45.:13:49.

when you look at our promotion of our values, our pursuit of our

:13:50.:13:52.

interests, and the protection of our security, we have to all the time

:13:53.:13:56.

try to figure out which is first, which is second and which is third

:13:57.:14:00.

in every situation. You say in the book that there was a shift of

:14:01.:14:04.

emphasis in American foreign policy, you are less preoccupied with what

:14:05.:14:11.

Rumsfeld called "the old Europe", you are less preoccupied with the

:14:12.:14:15.

transatlantic relationships and alliances and more preoccupied with

:14:16.:14:19.

things going on in Asia and other parts of the world. Does that mean

:14:20.:14:23.

that Europe is less important to you now than it used to be? No, I try to

:14:24.:14:27.

make very clear in the book that I thought we needed to renew and

:14:28.:14:32.

rebuild the important alliances that we have in Europe. Europe are our

:14:33.:14:38.

partners of first resort. This is where we really live, however, when

:14:39.:14:43.

I became Secretary of State I quickly learned that Asia thought

:14:44.:14:47.

the Bush administration had totally neglected it. And we have vital

:14:48.:14:51.

interests there. We have defence treaties, we have promised to defend

:14:52.:14:56.

people. So it wasn't moving away from, it was pivoting towards

:14:57.:14:59.

without losing the importance, because I went to Asian in February,

:15:00.:15:04.

Europe in March and made the case from the very beginning. What about

:15:05.:15:08.

the boring old cliche about the "special relationship" is that worth

:15:09.:15:13.

anything nowadays? It is worth everything to me and our country,

:15:14.:15:17.

I'm a big anglophile when it comes to special relationship, and partly

:15:18.:15:20.

because I think we see the world very simply. I worked with two

:15:21.:15:24.

foreign secretaries, one Labour, one Tory, I had so much in common with

:15:25.:15:31.

both Ed Miliband David Miliband and William Hague. We can talk about

:15:32.:15:36.

things in an easy fashion, despite political differences between them

:15:37.:15:39.

and our own country, there was a base of understanding that is so

:15:40.:15:45.

understanding. And comforting. Do you think the United States will be

:15:46.:15:52.

enhanced or diminished in their relationship with the UK if we hold

:15:53.:15:58.

a referendum on Europe. You are drawing me into dangerous waters.

:15:59.:16:01.

You are clever enough to deal with it? That is a political decision at

:16:02.:16:04.

the very core of it. Europe needs Britain, in my opinion. I think

:16:05.:16:09.

Britain brings a perspective and experience that is very important to

:16:10.:16:12.

Europe, especially post-economic crisis. So Britain will have to

:16:13.:16:19.

decide if they agree with that. And what about whether Scotland is

:16:20.:16:22.

intergrel to Britain? I would hate to have you lose Scotland. I got an

:16:23.:16:28.

honourary degree from St Andrews. You are perfectly happy to interfere

:16:29.:16:32.

in British politics on the question of the union, why not other matters?

:16:33.:16:37.

I hope that it doesn't happen. I don't have a vote in Scotland, I

:16:38.:16:41.

would hope it doesn't happen. Why? Because it just seems like. They are

:16:42.:16:45.

entitled to their freedom as much as Ukraine? Well if there had been a

:16:46.:16:51.

real referendum as opposed to a rump and intimidating event. It will be a

:16:52.:16:55.

proper referendum? It will be because there is legal process

:16:56.:16:58.

associated with it, we will see what the people of Scotland decide. You

:16:59.:17:02.

know I would think it would be a loss for both sides, again I don't

:17:03.:17:07.

have a vote. Can I ask you about your personal ambitions, you say in

:17:08.:17:09.

the book you have not decided whether you are going to run for the

:17:10.:17:14.

cy. Other factors are going to decide it for you what are the other

:17:15.:17:21.

factors? They are both personal and political, I mean personally I'm

:17:22.:17:24.

about to be a grandmother in the fall. I'm very excited about that. I

:17:25.:17:28.

want to relish the experience, I don't want to be passing through it

:17:29.:17:32.

and looking forward, I want to be right in the middle of it. A

:17:33.:17:37.

presidential campaign, if one decides to do it is 24/7,

:17:38.:17:41.

all-consuming, I'm not ready for that. The most important thing as I

:17:42.:17:44.

say in the end of the book is not the questions, will you run? Or can

:17:45.:17:49.

you win? What is your vision for America and can you lead it there?

:17:50.:17:54.

We are going through one of our periodic, political mess, lots of

:17:55.:17:58.

dysfunction, lots of finger-pointing, inability to reach

:17:59.:18:04.

consensus and compromise. I want to be sure as I evaluate this decision

:18:05.:18:08.

going forward that you know I, number one know where I want to lead

:18:09.:18:12.

the country, and number two that I think I can make that happen. You

:18:13.:18:16.

know that? I don't. You know what you can offer the country? I know in

:18:17.:18:20.

general terms and I haven't said exactly what is my economic policy,

:18:21.:18:23.

we are having a hard time creating jobs what are we actually going to

:18:24.:18:26.

do about it and how can I put together the political coalition,

:18:27.:18:29.

and unlikely partners to achieve that, I haven't done any of that

:18:30.:18:33.

work. I have been focussed on writing the book and talking about

:18:34.:18:36.

the foreign policy and national security issues. How would America

:18:37.:18:39.

have been different if you had beaten Obama to the White House!

:18:40.:18:45.

(Laughs) I don't know. And we will never know. You must care. Whether

:18:46.:18:50.

you know is not quite the same as whether you care? I stopped caring,

:18:51.:18:55.

when I lost and he won that was the end for me, I ended up actually

:18:56.:18:58.

working for him. Do you think that is good for America, was it good for

:18:59.:19:02.

America? Of course it was, are you kidding, absolutely. It was so

:19:03.:19:06.

fortunate for me after the hard, long intense campaign that I got to

:19:07.:19:09.

support somebody with whom I had so much in common, even though we had

:19:10.:19:13.

differences, we agreed on much more than we disagreed on. I don't

:19:14.:19:20.

rummate -- ruminate, I'm not sitting around and thinking about what might

:19:21.:19:23.

have been, that is not my thought process. He won, I pledged my

:19:24.:19:27.

support, I helped him in every way that I could, and he asked me to be

:19:28.:19:31.

Secretary of State. It is a very unusual path, but one that I have

:19:32.:19:37.

quite enjoyed. We are roughly the same sort of age. Oh good, you are

:19:38.:19:42.

so young! Exactly, we are both past that great water mark, and I just

:19:43.:19:47.

wonder why on earth anybody would want to go back into the White

:19:48.:19:50.

House, given your experience of the torrid time you had there last time?

:19:51.:19:56.

We got a lot done, I'm proud of what happened in the country and proud of

:19:57.:19:59.

what President Obama has done. If you take the eight years of Bill

:20:00.:20:02.

Clinton and Barack Obama, and you compare it to the eight years of

:20:03.:20:07.

Regan, the eight years of Bush, the country was so much better off with

:20:08.:20:13.

progressive energetic democratic Presidents, the economy was

:20:14.:20:17.

stronger, our fiscal house was much better ordered. We are starting to

:20:18.:20:21.

get healthcare, something you all take for granted. We did positive

:20:22.:20:25.

things for the American people in those years. All the intrusion into

:20:26.:20:29.

your personal life? I mean there is hardly anything left! It will make

:20:30.:20:34.

for pretty boring reading if it continues! So that hasn't put you

:20:35.:20:42.

off? No, no. It hasn't. In part because I have a pretty good idea

:20:43.:20:46.

that this is a contact sport, as we say, politics in the United States

:20:47.:20:50.

at the moment in our history is very rough and tumble because there are

:20:51.:20:57.

big stakes. Unfortunately people sometimes engage in unsavoury,

:20:58.:21:01.

negative name calling and the like. That is part of it, I understand

:21:02.:21:05.

that. If you are not tough enough to get into that arena then truly you

:21:06.:21:10.

should not even put your toe in, because it is quite a gauntlet. You

:21:11.:21:14.

can hit me for asking you this? I may! Do you think you would ever

:21:15.:21:19.

have become Secretary of State had you not been Mrs Clinton?

:21:20.:21:23.

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that question ended when I ran for the

:21:24.:21:27.

Senate. When I ran for the Senate and I ran first against a very

:21:28.:21:33.

dominant figure, then mayor Guliani, then I ran against a young

:21:34.:21:38.

Congressman with a lot more money rushing into his campaign. The fact

:21:39.:21:42.

that the people of New York elected me ended that debate. I'm very

:21:43.:21:47.

grateful that I learned a lot and I continue to learn from my husband's

:21:48.:21:52.

political acumen and decision-making. I think what caused

:21:53.:21:57.

the President, President Obama to ask me to be Secretary of State was

:21:58.:22:00.

actually that campaign, because until you go through that sort of

:22:01.:22:05.

ordeal and you know how hard it is for the other person, you don't know

:22:06.:22:07.

what they are really made of, and the President told me, I watched you

:22:08.:22:10.

under the most difficult circumstances and you are the person

:22:11.:22:13.

I want to represent our country while I'm dealing with the economic

:22:14.:22:16.

mess. I asked the question because while I'm dealing with the economic

:22:17.:22:20.

there is a deficit of women at a high level in politics. I would be

:22:21.:22:22.

very interested high level in politics. I would be

:22:23.:22:25.

response to this, which is do you think women at the highest levels of

:22:26.:22:31.

politics behave differently to men? I think that many do, I'm not going

:22:32.:22:37.

to over-generalise and say all do. It is my experience working with

:22:38.:22:40.

women heads of state and Government that on issues affecting family

:22:41.:22:47.

life, children's well being, women's opportunities, there is a much

:22:48.:22:52.

greater immediate recognition of the importance of those issues. Now that

:22:53.:22:57.

again I say as a generalisation, and not all fit into that category. When

:22:58.:23:00.

I sit down and talk with the President of Brazil, or the

:23:01.:23:05.

President of Chile or the President of a country in Asia whether it be

:23:06.:23:13.

Mrs Bhutto before ousted or assassinated or anything else, the

:23:14.:23:17.

conversation about some of these social issues is very much embedded

:23:18.:23:22.

in the political discourse, and an awareness of how hard a lot of the

:23:23.:23:24.

decision making is for awareness of how hard a lot of the

:23:25.:23:28.

today in many parts of the world. Hillary Clinton, thank you. Thank

:23:29.:23:35.

you Jeremy. So where stands America in the world, Obama is being

:23:36.:23:39.

increasingly criticised for not doing much in foreign affairs. Let's

:23:40.:23:49.

see what the political columnists with me, let's see what they make of

:23:50.:23:55.

it. Let's start with Iraq, she was pretty unambiguous, but a high-risk

:23:56.:24:01.

game? She seemed frighteningly jolly throughout the whole interview, she

:24:02.:24:04.

laughed an awful lot, didn't she. It was a tight laugh. But, her position

:24:05.:24:12.

on Iraq is kind of surprising since she has been an interventionist at

:24:13.:24:17.

almost every turn in the past. What do you deduce from that? That she's

:24:18.:24:23.

running for President. That was going to be my next question? Let me

:24:24.:24:29.

ask you what did you make of her position on Iraq? It is clear she's

:24:30.:24:33.

running for President, she had a vote that she cast several years ago

:24:34.:24:37.

that put her at odds with a lot of folks in her own party and I think

:24:38.:24:41.

she's doing everything she can to protect her left flank and avoid a

:24:42.:24:45.

substantial primary. But I think it is very clear from that interview

:24:46.:24:49.

that she's running for President. You seem pretty certain, both of

:24:50.:24:54.

you? Not 100% certain, you can't be in American politics, and no matter

:24:55.:24:59.

what she said to you, I know that public life has taken a real toll on

:25:00.:25:05.

her at times. You know when she was out stumping for her healthcare plan

:25:06.:25:10.

in 1994 there was a day in Seattle where people were cursing her and

:25:11.:25:14.

spitting on her and it took a while for her to recover from that. What

:25:15.:25:20.

sort of a candidate is she going to make if she does run for President,

:25:21.:25:24.

what do you think Katie? I think the unique thing about Hillary Clinton

:25:25.:25:28.

is that she is just a political animal to her core. I think you know

:25:29.:25:32.

from the first time that Bill Clinton ran for office back in

:25:33.:25:37.

Arkansas, you know, politics has really driven the decisions that

:25:38.:25:40.

they have made as a family and the decisions that she has made. I think

:25:41.:25:46.

she always saw herself with a political career post-White House,

:25:47.:25:49.

and was very calculated in all of the decision that is she made. I

:25:50.:25:52.

don't think we have seen anything that's come out of this book that

:25:53.:25:58.

indicates that this is any kind of real biography or real tell-all of

:25:59.:26:01.

her time as Secretary of State. It is very clearly an opportunity to

:26:02.:26:05.

start a campaign before a campaign starts. Somebody said to me earlier

:26:06.:26:09.

is it was an attempt to explain to the American people where she has

:26:10.:26:13.

been for the last few years? Right since Americans do not follow

:26:14.:26:18.

foreign policy at all, unfortunately. But it seems to me

:26:19.:26:24.

that she has, she's on a very clear path here, and there are an awful

:26:25.:26:29.

lot of things that she doesn't write about in the book. And there has

:26:30.:26:35.

been an awful lot of scrubbing going on here. But I think that she would

:26:36.:26:41.

be a good candidate, not as good as her husband who was the best I have

:26:42.:26:46.

ever seen. I think that she will face a challenge from the left-wing

:26:47.:26:52.

of the Democratic party, especially on her positions towards Wall Street

:26:53.:26:56.

which have become very controversial because of her husband's positions

:26:57.:27:02.

towards Wall Street. Do you think, given that elections are all about,

:27:03.:27:08.

or usually, providing it is not a second term selection, they are

:27:09.:27:12.

about changes of direction. She represents continuity, doesn't she?

:27:13.:27:16.

She sure does represent continuity, and I think if you look at her

:27:17.:27:21.

policy positions, she's a whole lot more like Barack Obama than she is

:27:22.:27:25.

like Bill Clinton, you know Bill Clinton comes from a small town in

:27:26.:27:30.

Arkansas, kind of a country boy, he really understood how to connect

:27:31.:27:35.

with real people. I share Joe's view that he was a brilliant politician

:27:36.:27:38.

and knew how to connect with working people. I think coming out of the

:27:39.:27:43.

gate with this book tour, you know she's had some real stumbles in

:27:44.:27:47.

conveying herself as somebody that left the White House broke and she's

:27:48.:27:53.

going to be a very different kind of politician than her husband was. I

:27:54.:27:57.

think we will see her continue the policies of the Obama administration

:27:58.:28:02.

as we saw in the interview. He had a few gafes too, I seem to recall.

:28:03.:28:09.

Different kinds. That is the biggest problem she face, historically it

:28:10.:28:14.

has been pretty tough for politicians to essentially run for a

:28:15.:28:20.

third term after they have, George HW Bush did a pretty good job of it,

:28:21.:28:25.

but Ronald Regan was phenomenally popular, and even Bush got into some

:28:26.:28:31.

trouble, he said he wanted a kinder, gentler nation, and Nancy Regan said

:28:32.:28:38.

"kinder and gentler than what"? What about this question of America's

:28:39.:28:43.

standing in the world, you hear people say a lot that because Obama

:28:44.:28:49.

is low-profile in foreign affairs that some how the country is

:28:50.:28:53.

diminished. Is that a widespread view? I think there is certainly a

:28:54.:28:57.

widespread view among the American people that our place in the world

:28:58.:29:01.

has been some what diminished, I think certainly with the rise of

:29:02.:29:05.

Putin, and I was very surprised to see her so whole heartedly embrace

:29:06.:29:10.

this reset strategy as a brilliant move. I don't think that is where

:29:11.:29:14.

the American people will see it. I don't think that foreign policy is

:29:15.:29:17.

something that drives the American vote. But I do think that the

:29:18.:29:21.

American people feel like we are weaker than we were. I disagree, I

:29:22.:29:28.

think that our standing in the world is certainly higher now than it was

:29:29.:29:34.

when George W Bush, who didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a

:29:35.:29:40.

Shi'ite invaded Iraq. That wasn't the question, it was is that how the

:29:41.:29:44.

American people view it? I do think the American people are really sick,

:29:45.:29:48.

including most of the Republicans I meet in the country, are really sick

:29:49.:29:53.

of us going in and imposing our will in places that were... He has a

:29:54.:30:00.

short-term problem in Iraq, if that is taken over by a bunch of Islamist

:30:01.:30:05.

nutcases? It isn't going to be, for the same reason we shouldn't have

:30:06.:30:08.

gone in the first makes because Iraq is not a country. It is three

:30:09.:30:21.

different satraps from the out Monday Otteman empire. The problem

:30:22.:30:26.

is all the straight borders you Brits drew years ago. There is a

:30:27.:30:30.

time you have to stop blaming your great, great, great-grand parents?

:30:31.:30:34.

It is not me, it is the people who live in the area who want to

:30:35.:30:37.

determine where their countries are, and they don't go with the straight

:30:38.:30:43.

line borders. Is this a huge problem? Huge over the next 30

:30:44.:30:47.

years. Of course it is going to be a big problem, the American people I

:30:48.:30:51.

feel regardless of what the tactical solution is in Iraq today, the

:30:52.:30:55.

American people want to view our country as strong. They take a lot

:30:56.:30:58.

of pride in that. I don't think what has happened in Russia in the last

:30:59.:31:02.

several years has been viewed as something that has been taking a

:31:03.:31:05.

strong position against Russia. Thank you very much indeed. That is

:31:06.:31:08.

it from New York, let's return to the story of Iraq and join Kirsty in

:31:09.:31:10.

London. So President the story of Iraq and join Kirsty in

:31:11.:31:17.

indicated that the US is prepared to take military action to prevent

:31:18.:31:22.

Jihadists gaining a foothold in Iraq, not ruling anything out.

:31:23.:31:27.

Judging by the relenties advance of Isis on Baghdad, after securing

:31:28.:31:31.

broad swathes of Iraq, the country is already in danger of fracturing.

:31:32.:31:36.

A warning this film contains images that some viewers may find

:31:37.:31:44.

disturbing. So Isis consolidates his hold on

:31:45.:31:50.

Mosul, it has issued religious edicts, insisting on five prayers a

:31:51.:31:56.

day and Islamic modesty, and it is pressing its fighters south towards

:31:57.:32:00.

Baghdad. The Government's response? There have been air attacks on Mosul

:32:01.:32:05.

and Tikrit, precisely the type of tactic that alienated so many Sunnis

:32:06.:32:09.

in the first place. But is the Sunni community solid, or could more

:32:10.:32:13.

moderate leaders be lured away from Isis. One of the generals who helped

:32:14.:32:19.

split the Sunni insurgency against the coalition thinks it could be

:32:20.:32:22.

done again. One of the most significant things that happened in

:32:23.:32:29.

2006 and 2007 is certainly large numbers of the tribal elders

:32:30.:32:35.

particularly in western Iraq got thoroughly disenchanted with what

:32:36.:32:41.

Al-Qaeda is doing. One the risks that Isis runs at the present time

:32:42.:32:45.

is creating exactly the same effect amongst some of the more

:32:46.:32:48.

conservative parts of the Sunni population. There are also secular

:32:49.:32:52.

moderate Sunni who don't want to be any part of this. By no stretch of

:32:53.:32:56.

the imagination can it possibly be said that Isis speaks for the Sunni

:32:57.:33:02.

community. Al-Qaeda in the land of two rivers, Iraq started when

:33:03.:33:09.

Jordanian Jihadist swore allegance to Osama Bin Laden. As he gained

:33:10.:33:12.

followers through spectacular attacks and beheadings, he became

:33:13.:33:17.

make's top target in Iraq. After they killed him, the Jihadists

:33:18.:33:22.

regrouped and in September 2006 relaunched themselves as the Islamic

:33:23.:33:28.

State of Iraq. But their fortunes waned, Sunni tribes were turned

:33:29.:33:31.

against them, coalition Special Forces killed and captured

:33:32.:33:40.

thousands. One of those detainees, Al-Bagdadi, released when the

:33:41.:33:43.

Americans withdrew, emerged as a powerful figure in the Syrian Civil

:33:44.:33:47.

War. In April last year he formed the Islamic State of Iraq and

:33:48.:33:55.

AlSham, meaning Syria, Isis. He takes names like Al-Husani, which

:33:56.:34:04.

aims to say he's descended from the Prophet Mohammed's family. He calls

:34:05.:34:08.

himself names that says he's from the same Arab tribe as the prophet

:34:09.:34:14.

comes from. There is no doubt he's projecting himself as the legitimate

:34:15.:34:20.

successor to those from early Islam. Couched in 14th century language,

:34:21.:34:26.

Isis has brought 14th century justice to the Syrian town it has

:34:27.:34:31.

controlled for months. There has been crucifixions and beheadings,

:34:32.:34:36.

churches descrated. What is so woeful about the Mall malfailure is

:34:37.:34:43.

it has disregarded key aspects of the successful coalition approach.

:34:44.:34:52.

Some of the mill ligses hired 60,000 Sunni insurge -- back in 2008 when

:34:53.:34:58.

we filmed them, members predicted that the Shia led Government would

:34:59.:35:02.

get rid of them as soon as the Americans had gone. That is exactly

:35:03.:35:11.

what happened. Back in Dura this spring, we were told that what was

:35:12.:35:15.

once an awakening force of 1500 policing the district had now shrunk

:35:16.:35:20.

to one dozen. In its place Government police mostly Shia

:35:21.:35:26.

outsiders. The defence of Baghdad could now depend on Shia militias

:35:27.:35:31.

with Iranian support. While in the north Kurdish fighters have assumed

:35:32.:35:38.

control of the city of Kirkuk. That growing sectarianism makes it all

:35:39.:35:42.

the heard to lure Sunni support away from the Jihadists again. The

:35:43.:35:48.

insurgency as a whole is a lot more dominated by Isis than back in the

:35:49.:35:56.

days of the Iraq War. I mean Al-Qaeda in Iraq in the Islamic

:35:57.:35:59.

state of Iraq were important, but I think there was a lot more variety

:36:00.:36:05.

in terms of the insurgent groups and their strains. Where as this time

:36:06.:36:10.

I'm a lot more sceptical. I would apply the same analysis to Syria,

:36:11.:36:15.

where really we have seen the anti-Isis rebel movements, they have

:36:16.:36:20.

really failed to roll back them in any meaningful manner. We see Isis

:36:21.:36:26.

making gains in south eastern Syria. Isis is strong then and survival for

:36:27.:36:40.

the Mall -- the Mall mal-Government could have been feeding the most

:36:41.:36:45.

formidable foes. Joining me from his home in Kingston

:36:46.:36:51.

upon Thames is former Iraqi Prime Minister. Good evening. First of

:36:52.:36:56.

all, you are just back from Baghdad. Is there a real feeling there that

:36:57.:37:01.

you are facing the break up of the country? This is a possibility. I

:37:02.:37:12.

hope it will be a remote possibility of the Iraqis don't pull together

:37:13.:37:18.

and form a unity Government. To get out of the current mess. Otherwise

:37:19.:37:26.

my fear is that potentially the danger does exist on dividing the

:37:27.:37:30.

country. Is this the worst you have seen in 30 years of Iraqi politics,

:37:31.:37:34.

the worst in terms of holding the country together? Definitely it is

:37:35.:37:40.

worse. It is quite dangerous. We have been losing around a thousand

:37:41.:37:46.

Iraqis per month for the last year or so. Killed by terrorist groups.

:37:47.:37:53.

Unfortunately the Government was not able to control this, definitely the

:37:54.:38:02.

political process itself is not an inclusive political process it is

:38:03.:38:06.

being built on sectarian levels and sectarian drives. This has been

:38:07.:38:11.

quite painful to the country. So when you hear that President Obama

:38:12.:38:16.

does not rule out military intervention, not boots on the

:38:17.:38:20.

ground, but military intervention, does that fill you with hope or more

:38:21.:38:29.

concern? I'm more concerned, I think this would add fuel to the fire,

:38:30.:38:36.

unfortunately. I know that the United States has lost its

:38:37.:38:40.

capabilities in Iraq, and indeed in the Middle East, the greater Middle

:38:41.:38:44.

East. We know that there is no clarity in the policy where the

:38:45.:38:51.

American policy is heading with regards to the east. We know the

:38:52.:38:56.

peace process is being stagnant now between the Arabs and the Israelis.

:38:57.:39:05.

Afghanistan, North Africa, Horn of Africa, Syria. There is an increase

:39:06.:39:13.

activities of Al-Qaeda and indeed now it is in Iraq also. To stop this

:39:14.:39:17.

regional conflict, because it is as you say a regional conflict, if

:39:18.:39:25.

there was to be a pull together of Iraq itself, Hillary Clinton says

:39:26.:39:27.

Nouri Al-Maliki has to be more incluesive, something that you agree

:39:28.:39:33.

with. We heard that Lieutenant curl national Robert Fry saying that

:39:34.:39:36.

actually the Sunnis themselves need to be divided off because of course

:39:37.:39:41.

not all Sunnis are part of any kind of extremist grouping. How do you

:39:42.:39:45.

reconcile, do you have a role to play, are you going back? I'm going

:39:46.:39:52.

back in two days time. Tomorrow I'm going back. The problem of Sunnis

:39:53.:40:00.

and Shias is an oversimplification. Never existed in Iraq this problem

:40:01.:40:04.

before. Yes there are pockets, definitely, who do behave in a

:40:05.:40:10.

sectarian way, but by and large the Iraqi people rejected and never

:40:11.:40:16.

thought of along the sectarian lines. What we have is a fight

:40:17.:40:21.

between extremism and moderation. Throughout the greater Middle East,

:40:22.:40:24.

not only in Iraq. And unfortunately there are people within the Sunni

:40:25.:40:28.

block who are extremists and likewise in the Shia group also we

:40:29.:40:36.

have extremism. Likewise on the Kurdish component we have extremism.

:40:37.:40:42.

We have likewise moderation and I think this conflict is widespread

:40:43.:40:47.

throughout the greater Middle East and I believe that when the

:40:48.:40:52.

Americans invaded Iraq, unfortunately they dismandled the

:40:53.:41:00.

state of Iraq, not -- dismantled the state of Iraq, not just Saddam

:41:01.:41:03.

Hussein, the whole state. They wanted to create a new state but

:41:04.:41:06.

they failed to do so because they had no post-conflict policy. Thank

:41:07.:41:14.

you very much for joining us. Brazil opened the World Cup with a

:41:15.:41:19.

hard-fought 1 victory over Croatia, despite the excitement and

:41:20.:41:23.

razzmatazz, there is persistent signs of protest which came to

:41:24.:41:29.

police firing tear bullets and teargas and not extinguishing it.

:41:30.:41:33.

Hours before the tournament kicked off, demonstrators tried to march as

:41:34.:41:38.

close to the arena as possible. Among the protesters is a protestor

:41:39.:41:46.

whose anger at the World Cup has been channelled into her YouTube

:41:47.:41:54.

video I'm Not Going to the World Cup. This is flavour of her film

:41:55.:42:01.

seen by four million people. Some think the World Cup is the incentive

:42:02.:42:05.

for the country to get better. So we will be paying taxes all these years

:42:06.:42:09.

for what? What country needs an incentive to take care of its

:42:10.:42:12.

people. Suddenly there is all this money to build stadiums and the

:42:13.:42:15.

population is led to believe that the World Cup is just the change

:42:16.:42:19.

there needed for their lives to get better. But the truth is that most

:42:20.:42:22.

of the money that comes from the games in the stadiums goes straight

:42:23.:42:28.

to FIFA and we don't even see it. I'm joined now by Carla. That hard

:42:29.:42:42.

fought victory does it bring any bit of excitement from you, do you think

:42:43.:42:46.

it will diminish the protests? Hi there, it actually doesn't bring me

:42:47.:42:52.

any excitement. I think all that I have been through with the veto and

:42:53.:42:55.

everything it is hard to separate the protests from the games, even

:42:56.:42:59.

though the game is a good thing. In my thing it is hard to separate, I

:43:00.:43:03.

can't do it any more. I didn't actually watch the game. Now in

:43:04.:43:09.

terms of protests I think, I don't think it is a matter of the result

:43:10.:43:12.

of the game, but the repression that is going on right now, it is

:43:13.:43:18.

carrying people, it is scaring people, I was there today, was

:43:19.:43:23.

insanely violent. They were putting children at risk, older people, all

:43:24.:43:29.

sorts of people. People that were not even trying to march or do

:43:30.:43:34.

anything. There were two protests, one was the Metro, people from the

:43:35.:43:39.

Metr they were protesting and then there were the people protesting the

:43:40.:43:42.

World Cup specifically. At some point the protests were combined.

:43:43.:43:46.

The police were repressing the first one, the World Cup protest, the

:43:47.:43:53.

other one was completely just staying in a certain area. But the

:43:54.:43:57.

police didn't want the protests to even start. It was insanely violent

:43:58.:44:07.

and... The President, I mean, there is a lot of military hardware out

:44:08.:44:11.

there, there is helicopters, there is friget, a lot of military

:44:12.:44:18.

activity. But presumably the last thing Brazil wants is to be seen to

:44:19.:44:22.

be heavihanded when so many people from the outside world are there. So

:44:23.:44:28.

do you think, one, there will be a harder crackdown, or do you think

:44:29.:44:32.

more people will be out on the streets as a result of anger at the

:44:33.:44:51.

crackdown today as a result of anger at the crackdown today. We didn't

:44:52.:44:54.

know how it was going to develop, and a lot of people got upset at the

:44:55.:44:57.

repression, there is no doubt they will go to the streets again. It is

:44:58.:45:01.

scary, very scary, because compared to the force the police has, the

:45:02.:45:06.

protest is small. It is not a well prepared police, they don't have the

:45:07.:45:09.

intelligence to deal with the protests the right way, so they end

:45:10.:45:14.

up involving people there protesting peacefully. It is really funny that

:45:15.:45:19.

after the protests I went near the stadium to get some images because

:45:20.:45:23.

I'm shooting a documentary, and when I get there there was the march for

:45:24.:45:28.

Jesus Saves, they were there with their signs and that seemed to be

:45:29.:45:34.

OK. Now the other protests couldn't there, I don't see why. A lot of

:45:35.:45:38.

people will be upset and they may come back to the streets, it is very

:45:39.:45:41.

hard to predict. It was scary, I have a friend who was helping with

:45:42.:45:47.

first aid for the people who were hurt and more than 35 people were

:45:48.:45:52.

hurt, two went to the hospital. But is there not an element of hope,

:45:53.:45:56.

from your point of view, that so many people from other parts of the

:45:57.:46:00.

world are in Brazil, and they are seeing the favelas and the poverty,

:46:01.:46:05.

thank in a sense might jolt Brazil into action? I hope so. Yes. I do

:46:06.:46:13.

hope so, but my fear is that people will forget all of this with the

:46:14.:46:18.

game. I hope they don't. And I think the game is still important, despite

:46:19.:46:23.

disagreeing the way it was made, the way they organised it, but I just

:46:24.:46:28.

hope people don't forget the rest. So they can watch the games, yes, of

:46:29.:46:32.

course, and I think they have the right to, but my fear is they will

:46:33.:46:37.

forget the rest. I have to stop you there, thank you very much for

:46:38.:46:40.

joining us. That is all we have time for tonight, from me and Jeremy in

:46:41.:46:49.

A day of contrast today and tomorrow, lots of shine across

:46:50.:47:00.

England and Wales to start the day. Patchy cloud into the afternoon, it

:47:01.:47:04.

will be warm again. Further north rain around, particularly through

:47:05.:47:07.

the morning, a wet start to the day. In the afternoon the rain becomes

:47:08.:47:12.

light and patchy, not much left over in Northern Ireland through the

:47:13.:47:14.

middle of the afternoon. Temperatures 16, 17. The rain easing

:47:15.:47:20.

off from the north and west of Scotland. Keeping it pretty damp for

:47:21.:47:21.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS