19/06/2014 Newsnight


19/06/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.


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The President who voted against Bush's war, says America would be

:00:00.:00:14.

ready to act. But Obama won't send troops into direct combat. Yet extra

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military personnel are on the way. There are cries of "betrayal" in

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Baghdad. We will be prepared to take targeted and precise military

:00:25.:00:28.

action, if and when we determine that the situation on the ground

:00:29.:00:32.

requires it. They said Twitter can be a force for good, and make lots

:00:33.:00:36.

of money. But is the billion dollar business living up to that? One of

:00:37.:00:41.

the company's founders is here. What is this? Not exactly capability

:00:42.:00:49.

brown, but a rather more elegant gardener has designs on the Thames.

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To make a bridge which crosses this, to me one of the most important

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rivers in the world, the River Thames, and to have a garden on it

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seems something almost dream-like, almost a magical quality. Good

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evening, so America could return to Iraq, with an extra 300 military

:01:16.:01:20.

advisers on the ground. And what President Obama described as precise

:01:21.:01:25.

and targeted action, if it proves necessary. But that's only a partial

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answer to the cry for help from what remains of the Iraqi Government, but

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even limited American intervention in the dangerous and discoughing

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state is proving controversial. For those expecting American pilots to

:01:45.:01:48.

light their afterburners and take to the skies to pummel ISIS, today was

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a disappointment. But the Washington debate has now gone to full throttle

:01:55.:01:59.

over whether to help Iraq and there's movement. For the moment,

:02:00.:02:06.

just a few hundred Special Forces' advisers will go in. It is not for

:02:07.:02:11.

the United States to choose Iraq's leaders, it is true that only

:02:12.:02:15.

leaders with an inclusive agenda will truly bring the Iraqi people

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together and help them through the crisis. Meanwhile the United States

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will not pursue military actions that support one sect inside of Iraq

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at the expense of another. Ies that's the same movement as ISIL is

:02:31.:02:39.

the game-changer for Washington. Its advances have been sufficiently

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alarming that they have forced the President to overturn one of his

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policies, complete disengagment with Iraq. This is a President adverse to

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getting America endangled in the Middle East or conflicts around the

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world in any way. He feels it is a time to consolidate and focus on

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problems at home. For him to go back to Iraq, looking at military

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options, getting ourselves entangled in the very complicated politics of

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that country has to be extremely painful for him on a personal level

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and also on a larger strategic level, I think he has to feel this

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is a tremendous disappointment and tremenduously bad for US national

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interests. The most urgent problem the Iraqi Government faces is at

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Baji, where an oil refinery providing 40% of the country's

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petrol is close to be overrun. Near Baquba, militias have been fighting

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to keep ISIS out of the town. And around Kirkuk, Kurdish forces are

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trying to defend their recent gains against the Sunnis. Even if a timely

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air strike could help in any of these situations, many Americans are

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concerned about the political message it might send. The White

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House wants a national unity Government, Shia, Sunni and Kurd,

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one that could halt the fragmentation of Iraq. President

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Obama has been quite clear on this, this cannot be the United States

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being the air force for Shia militias or a Shia on Sunni Arab

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fight. It has to be a fight of all of Iraq against extremists who do

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happen to be Sunni Arabs. Downing Street too is looking beyond Nouri

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Al-Maliki, who it blames for what has happened. There is no doubt that

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the Government of Iraq has not given enough attention to healing

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sectarian divides, to including Sunni and Kurds in the Government,

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to bringing the country together. We have to examine why we have this

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crisis in the centre of Iraq, and it is that combination of poor

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governance, of ungoverned space, of encouragement of extremism, which

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has created this space which is going to be potentially a haven for

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terrorism with all the dangers that I pointed out in the House of

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Commons yesterday. Iraqi forces, so their Government insist, are

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fighting back. And since make is so -- America is so worried about being

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seen as stepping into a sectarian and Al-Maliki fight, unless the

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Government changes or Baghdad is directly threatened that won't

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change. These are fighters in pick-up trucks and small vehicles,

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they can be hard to isolate, identify and strike without

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significant collateral damage or accidents that kill civilians

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nearby. Finally, without it seeming as though we are propping up

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essentially a Shi'ite dictator whose record of governing we don't really

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approve of and the risk is that moderate Sunnis, other than these

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radicals who we would be happy to wipe out, might think we were taking

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the sides of the Shi'ites in the on going sectarian battle. There are

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too many unknowns still for the USS Bush to launch its planes on bombing

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raids over Iraq. The key uncertainties, of course, are

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political, but tonight, with President Obama's announcement, they

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are starting to address some of the practical, military obstacles to

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using these weapons effectively. Mark is here to unpick some of this.

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You talked there about the practical obstacle, what do you mean by that?

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This is what I'm hearing, the American troops, special operations

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forces are already going in. They are going to set up two high-tech

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ops rooms, one in Baghdad and one in the Kurdish area. They will be used

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for fusion of evidence, taking images from drones unmanned

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aircrafts and satellite, all the stuff the NSA gathers, including

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people's social media, and all the rest of it, putting it together into

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actionable intelligence. That could be used to direct the Iraqis, to

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launch American air strikes or even other American actions in the area.

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What does make do if Al-Maliki refuses to go, what are the

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immicationcations there for whether or not they strike? It does seem to

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be a very difficult problem. Listening to President Obama today

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it occurs to me the Americans might do what they have done in Yemen and

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Pakistan and Libya, put the problem to one side. If they decide it is in

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the US national interest to hit ISIS, put the architecture in place

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to do it in a time and place of their own choosing. Decide it is in

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the US national interest to hit ISIS, put the architecture in place

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to do it in a time and place of their own choosing. A key

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facilitator and supporter from Baghdad is with us tonight.

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President Obama has described what could be targeted action and precise

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action, what do you understand that to mean? Well I think the President

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has decided to send a team of 300 in part to buy time to get a better

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sense of what is going Onyango the On on the ground in case action

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against ISIS is taken. But at the same time to buy time on the

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political process for a Government of National Unity to at least see if

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a unity Government can be formed. He has precluded immediate military

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action, but has done enough to gain credibility with the Government that

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military action might come and to energise the political process, in

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my judgment. Given what's happening on the ground, does he have time,

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given how desperate the situation is? As the report now indicates that

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Baghdad is not in danger of falling, the situation may not be as urgent

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as some believe it is. If Baghdad was in danger of falling, military

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action might take place soon and quickly. I think the President is

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preparing for possible military action, but at the same time I think

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he wants to wait if it is not urgent, if immediate action is not

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needed to deal with the political basis of the problem. Because there

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is sectarianism that is fuelling, in part, this brutal for that has

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gained ground, ISIS. I think's trying to get to the -- I think he's

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trying to get to the bottom of the problem. Does Al-Maliki have to go

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for a new political and potentially table situation to be set up, you

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backed Al-Maliki, did you back the wrong man potentially table

:10:35.:10:36.

situation to be set up, you backed Al-Maliki, did you back the wrong

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man? In 2006 he was one of the broad coalition who had the right ideas

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and he was the better of the two and formed a Government. In the 2010

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selection in the aftermath of that, while Al-Alawi gained more seats, he

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was not allowed to form the Government and the constitution was

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not followed. I think with polarisation, sectarian, because of

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Syria, the withdrawal of US forces, and the increased Iranian influence

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and the intermingling of Syria and Iraq conflicts, Al-Maliki has become

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more difficult to work with in terms of the Sunnis and Kurds and I think

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that the time has come to see if a new Government that can unite the

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Iraqis can be formed. The timing is good because the election results

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were just announced so a new Government has to be formed. And

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Al-Maliki does not have the votes by himself to form the Government,

:11:39.:11:41.

although he's in a relatively strong position. But I think a unity

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Government is needed as the President said. So you clearly think

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that Al-Maliki should move on in some way, but what do you think

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America should do in terms of this potential military action, putting

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advisers on the ground may not be what Baghdad wanted but it is still

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a serious and significant step. What next? What about air strikes? That

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will have to wait as to what the assessment is, the main purpose of

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the 300 is to do an assessment of what Iraqi units are like, those

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that remain. What help do they need, get a better sense of the situation

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on the ground, in terms of ISIS and other Sunni groups they are also

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helping ISIS. To develop a strategy, not only working with the Government

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but the local forces, Sunnis who can help us like they did during the

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surge, the Awakening Movement to work against the ISIS group, but all

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of that will depend on whether a unity Government is formed that is

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acceptable to the Sunnis and Kurds. Because without that military action

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by itself can do some counter terrorism benefits but will not

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solve the problems of Iraq. Briefly, you were involved right at the start

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of this, as part of George W Bush's administration. Did you always think

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this might happen, that you might see Iraq tearing itself apart in

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this way? Well, our hope was obviously for Iraq not to fall

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apart, to give the Iraqis an opportunity to accept each other and

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come together to form a Government that could put it on the path

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towards freedom and increase the economic prosperity. But in your

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gut... But the process has been. In your gut, did you always have a

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sense or fear that we might see this happen? At least what I did

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personally this was going to be far more difficult and take a lot more

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time because we know in societies made of different groups, without

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much experience in democratic rule, state and nation building can take a

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long time. The experience of Europe itself indicates that. Thank you

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very much indeed for joining us from Washington:

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You can hardly move for pundits gasping to comment on Ed Miliband's

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leading of Labour Party and his getting to Number Ten. What is less

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readily available is a clear sense of what Ed Miliband would do if he

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were to end up as Prime Minister. Rogue messages from a Labour Twitter

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account suggested free owls for all as one idea. In a moment we will

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talk to one of Ed Miliband's team. Today he filled in one of the policy

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blanks with what appears to be a real idea, removing jobseeker's

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allowance for the under 21s. In my view we should not allow the

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contributory principle to receive further, instead we should

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strengthen it. As one example the next Labour Government will change

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the way jobseeker's allowance works, to make sure that someone who has

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been working for years and years, paying into the system gets more

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help if they lose their job than someone who has just been working

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for a couple of years. Well the Shadow Business Secretary is with us

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in the studio. Thank you for coming in. After all the talk of radical

:15:24.:15:27.

ideas that we have been promised in recent days, Ed Miliband today came

:15:28.:15:31.

up with a policy that will save ?100 million and isn't particularly

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different to what the Government is doing in some areas, or one of your

:15:35.:15:38.

previous policies, it is not exactly radical is it? It is different to

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what the Government has proposed, but let's look at the

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what the Government has proposed, here, we have too many people in our

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country who are not connected, plugged in to the global economy,

:15:47.:15:51.

and amongst those are young people who have been in receipt of benefit.

:15:52.:15:55.

Now, what we know is that seven out of ten 18-21-year-olds, who have

:15:56.:16:01.

been on jobseekers allowance are on it for the second time. That tells

:16:02.:16:05.

you they are not getting into sustainable work, and also we have a

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situation where they don't have requisite skills to get into that

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work. What will you do about it? That is what the prose posals are

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about. We can -- proposals are about. We can have a debate about

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what is radical, but what matters to viewers is what works. We want to

:16:23.:16:25.

make sure that the young people are getting skills to plug them into the

:16:26.:16:29.

global economy. As you know well, all the polling suggests and most

:16:30.:16:32.

people in your party believe, it is for your party to restore an image

:16:33.:16:37.

of economic competence, this first radical policy will save about ?100

:16:38.:16:41.

million, George Osborne says he's going to save ?12 billion from

:16:42.:16:45.

welfare? With the greatest respect this isn't the first policy, we have

:16:46.:16:48.

said we will use the money Government spends through

:16:49.:16:52.

procurement, to boost the numbers of apprenticeship, we have made we will

:16:53.:16:55.

put in place a job guarantee for young people out of work for more

:16:56.:16:58.

than a year and adults out of work for more than two years. We have

:16:59.:17:01.

talked about how we actually transform and reconsignificant our

:17:02.:17:05.

economy, so we have better wage and higher skilled work, to say this is

:17:06.:17:19.

the first of one of the policies. Labour has to talk about significant

:17:20.:17:26.

cuts, so on welfare what else would you cut, George Osborne says ?12

:17:27.:17:30.

billion after the next election, beyond today what will you save

:17:31.:17:33.

there? George Osborne hasn't specified where the cuts will come

:17:34.:17:38.

in the next parliament. What was what would you cut? We have already

:17:39.:17:41.

accepted in this parliament the switch from the up-rating of

:17:42.:17:46.

benefits from RPI to CPI, that made a saving at the beginning of the

:17:47.:17:50.

parliament. Which the Government has counted in, what else would you cut

:17:51.:17:54.

on welfare? The best way we can reduce the benefits bill is getting

:17:55.:17:57.

more people into work and in respect of those people. And by the way the

:17:58.:18:00.

benefit that is they have been having to pay out because there have

:18:01.:18:04.

been large numbers of people unemployed throughout this

:18:05.:18:07.

parliament, costing way over ?10 billion. We also need to raise the

:18:08.:18:11.

wages of people in work. Which is spending more money by increasing

:18:12.:18:17.

the minimum wage, you are not cutting the welfare budget? You have

:18:18.:18:21.

just said which is wrong that increasing the minimum wage will

:18:22.:18:24.

cost the Government money. What it will do is employers pay more, that

:18:25.:18:29.

reduces the amount of benefit Government pays out and reduces tax

:18:30.:18:33.

credit. If people are able to get jobs? If you are talking about

:18:34.:18:36.

getting more people on to a living wage by making work pay contracts,

:18:37.:18:40.

that is fully costed and fully funded. Let's look at the other

:18:41.:18:45.

areas you may or may not cut money. The NHS budget the Government are

:18:46.:18:50.

ring-fencing it, would you touch that? You are asking me first of all

:18:51.:18:55.

spell out Labour's manifesto in ten months time. You are also asking me

:18:56.:18:59.

to tell you what is in the first budget. We are clear what we will

:19:00.:19:04.

done d'oh in getting the publicens ifs back on to an even footing after

:19:05.:19:10.

this Government will borrow ?190 billion. It is about the level which

:19:11.:19:14.

you are willing to give to restore a picture of economic competence? We

:19:15.:19:17.

have given more detail in terms of how we will reduce the deficit, at

:19:18.:19:22.

this point in a parliament, than any other opposition? A generation, we

:19:23.:19:28.

said no borrowing to fund day-to-day expenditure. If it is so convincing

:19:29.:19:32.

why is Labour consistent leeway behind the Government in terms of

:19:33.:19:36.

trust on economic competence, you are 13 points behind right now. The

:19:37.:19:40.

Conservatives' message at the election will be you cannot trust

:19:41.:19:43.

Labour at the economy, that will be their one sentence, what will

:19:44.:19:48.

Labour's one sentence message at the next election be? I don't agree with

:19:49.:19:53.

you, because you are quoting to me different polls, what I do know is

:19:54.:19:56.

that since 2010, the Labour Party has put on more than 2,300

:19:57.:20:05.

councillors, we have votes that delivered more, in the marginal seat

:20:06.:20:09.

areas where we need to win back support for a majority. What would

:20:10.:20:13.

the one sentence be in the next election? I won't give you the strap

:20:14.:20:20.

line for the 2015 manifesto. We know the Conservative message? If you let

:20:21.:20:23.

me answer the question. We would love to hear the answer? We want to

:20:24.:20:26.

empower people to meet their aspirations and dreams and to ensure

:20:27.:20:30.

that everybody in this country can see the benefits that a 21st century

:20:31.:20:36.

Britain can bring. The prosals we are talking about -- proposals we

:20:37.:20:40.

are talking about today seeks to plug young people into the global

:20:41.:20:43.

economy to see the benefits, where we know not enough of them are

:20:44.:20:49.

seeing them, with 850,000 young people out of work. The talk about

:20:50.:20:55.

aspirations and living dreams how does that compare to the trusting

:20:56.:20:58.

message on the economy, and the Government's message which is don't

:20:59.:21:01.

give the keys back because you crashed it last time? First of all

:21:02.:21:05.

people are in the future business, what they want to know, and this is

:21:06.:21:08.

in my constituency in Streatham people want to know, my 15-year-old

:21:09.:21:13.

child now when they are 25 after two terms of Labour Government, what

:21:14.:21:15.

will be the opportunities what will be the jobs that they can do. We're

:21:16.:21:19.

very clear, we want to make sure they get the skills so they can get

:21:20.:21:23.

really, good secure work that pays them a wage they can live off in a

:21:24.:21:26.

variety of different industries, which we know the UK are

:21:27.:21:31.

world-beating in, that is what we are in the business of doing. Thank

:21:32.:21:34.

you for coming in, and when you have that one sentence please come back

:21:35.:21:38.

and tell us, thank you. What could be more charming than a

:21:39.:21:42.

stroll by the river, a stroll across the river, of course, a dream of the

:21:43.:21:46.

actress, Joanna Lumley, who in planning a garden bridge across the

:21:47.:21:50.

Thames is following roles as an Avenger, a permanently tipsy

:21:51.:21:55.

magazine editor, saviour of the Gurkhas, and animal rights

:21:56.:22:00.

campaigner with another gardener in chief. She gave us a look at her

:22:01.:22:05.

plans. City living can be wonderful, all

:22:06.:22:09.

that hustle and bustle, but getting around can also be tough. Like most

:22:10.:22:15.

city dwellers I sometimes long for a haven, away from the noise and rush.

:22:16.:22:33.

Now here we are in the middle of London, this is the top of the Queen

:22:34.:22:37.

Elizabeth hall, this is the roof top garden they have built up here,

:22:38.:22:41.

completely wild, I'm surrounded by vegtables and plants and bees and

:22:42.:22:45.

the sound of birds twittering, and beyond that, the City, the concrete,

:22:46.:22:51.

the hard business of a city at work. It is fantastic, this juxtaposition

:22:52.:22:55.

of something really strange, gardens in strange places, that is paradise

:22:56.:23:06.

for me. For the past 17 years I have been working on and dreaming of a

:23:07.:23:11.

bridge which will cross done in complete silence, a bridge with a

:23:12.:23:16.

garden on it, a pedestrian bridge with a garden on it. Now, I hope, my

:23:17.:23:26.

dream is becoming a reality. The with a garden on it. Now, I hope, my

:23:27.:23:33.

planning work has already begun. The designer is Thomas Heatherwick, the

:23:34.:23:40.

Da Vinci of our day, the man behind the petal flowers of the Olympic

:23:41.:23:47.

cauldron. His garden bridge is equally powerful. It will run from

:23:48.:23:51.

the Temple on the north side to the south side on Queen's Walk. To make

:23:52.:23:57.

a bridge which crosses this, to me one of the most important rivers in

:23:58.:24:00.

the world, the River Thames, and to have a garden on it seems something

:24:01.:24:06.

almost dream-like, almost a magical quality. To be able to walk through

:24:07.:24:11.

trees and grass with birds and bees over the river, in the centre of a

:24:12.:24:21.

huge vibrant city. The garden will be filled with trees, 270 of them,

:24:22.:24:29.

as well as shrubs and wild flowers. Winding paths will snake around

:24:30.:24:34.

woodland copsess and glades. It will be a destination in its own right. I

:24:35.:24:41.

hope pedestrians will spend time there, crossing slowly rather than

:24:42.:24:46.

racing across. The idea for integrated greenery in urban setting

:24:47.:24:50.

has been used elsewhere, New York's High Line is one example. It is a

:24:51.:24:54.

concept that is now increasingly popular here in the UK. When cities

:24:55.:25:00.

were much smaller, people had easy access to the countryside, and then

:25:01.:25:05.

with the Industrial Revolution all over the country the countryside in

:25:06.:25:10.

a way receded, the Victorians understood that and then they

:25:11.:25:14.

brought green back into the city. I think we have really, since then,

:25:15.:25:17.

moved away from that, I think cities have become denser, noisier, busier,

:25:18.:25:22.

and I think now we are beginning to realise the value of urban green

:25:23.:25:27.

extends far beyond the fact that plants and green provide an

:25:28.:25:39.

aesthetic qualities. This is pretty much where the bridge is going to

:25:40.:25:42.

be, coming from Temple Tube across there right across to the ITV

:25:43.:25:47.

television studies on that side. It teams extraordinary in four years

:25:48.:25:50.

time we will be going underneath it. Why four years? Because the race is

:25:51.:25:54.

on. Because of the huge infrastructure changes that will go

:25:55.:25:59.

on in London a great big super sewer will be built on this side, work has

:26:00.:26:03.

to start on the bridge in 2015 and it has to be completed by 2018, it

:26:04.:26:08.

is thrilling, we can see the finishing tape already. What to do

:26:09.:26:12.

in that time, raise the money and build the bridge. Raising the money

:26:13.:26:17.

is hard but not impossible, because so many people are behind this.

:26:18.:26:20.

Everyone we have spoken to has fallen in love with it, which is

:26:21.:26:29.

fabulous, because it is my idea. The bridge is going to cost abou ?175

:26:30.:26:34.

million, we shouldn't be scared of the number, it will be an iconic

:26:35.:26:39.

wonderful piece of London skyline. It is something that London and the

:26:40.:26:42.

UK generally can be very proud of. It is going to cost about ?2. 3

:26:43.:26:48.

million to run it once it is built. We're obviously from a fundraising

:26:49.:26:53.

perspective looking at raising the money to build it and maintain it.

:26:54.:27:01.

We are confident we can do that. By October we should know whether this

:27:02.:27:05.

project that we have worked on and nutured for so long will finally

:27:06.:27:10.

become a reality. I hope it does. And I hope it inspires other people

:27:11.:27:15.

in other cities to create their own garden bridges. After all, I think

:27:16.:27:19.

there is room for a few more flowers in all our lives. Now the Oxford

:27:20.:27:27.

Union has been an effective play pen for establishment wannabes for

:27:28.:27:31.

nearly 200 years. It is probably the country's most famous debating

:27:32.:27:35.

society, and members who earn their stripes in its sessions include Tony

:27:36.:27:41.

Blair, Attlee, Asquith, Gove, hissen Tyne and Boris Johnson. But the

:27:42.:27:46.

Union has been caught up in a different controversy of late.

:27:47.:27:51.

Campaignsers pressured speakers to stay away, after the current

:27:52.:27:55.

President of the Union, Ben Sullivan was arrested on suspicion of rape.

:27:56.:27:58.

The police dropped the case yesterday. It has reignited

:27:59.:28:02.

questions over whether the accused should have his identity kept

:28:03.:28:09.

secret. Ben is here now and as well as Sarah who was involved in the

:28:10.:28:14.

campaign to boycott the Union. We won't go into the case because the

:28:15.:28:17.

charges have been dropped. You believe those accused of those kinds

:28:18.:28:22.

of offences should have anonymity? To some degree, I'm not as extreme

:28:23.:28:30.

as some those who feel you should have your identity not revealed

:28:31.:28:36.

after charge or conviction. I think there should be happy medium where

:28:37.:28:42.

your identity is not released straight away. It should be

:28:43.:28:46.

protected until at least a preliminary investigation. Why

:28:47.:28:50.

should we give protection to people accused of those kinds of offences,

:28:51.:28:54.

it is not for people accused of any other kinds of offences, it can

:28:55.:28:57.

encourage other people to come forward? That is completely true,

:28:58.:29:01.

that is why I would say not everybody's identity in cases like

:29:02.:29:06.

this could be kept secret, I'm aware it can be extremely helpful for

:29:07.:29:09.

police investigations for people's identities to be revealed and for

:29:10.:29:13.

people to come forward. These are incredibly poisonous allegations and

:29:14.:29:16.

incredibly difficult to deal with. As you know obviously those

:29:17.:29:21.

complainants are given anonymity n this country when we introduced

:29:22.:29:26.

anonymity for complainants it was for those accused as well, only to

:29:27.:29:30.

revoke it a few years later. What has it been like for you, there has

:29:31.:29:33.

been an extraordinary international attention on the Oxford Union, what

:29:34.:29:37.

is the experience like? It has been very difficult, very harrowing, I

:29:38.:29:40.

think, it puts things in perspective and changes your priorities to say

:29:41.:29:44.

the very least. It has been very, very difficult, I'm very thankful to

:29:45.:29:49.

everyone has given me all sorts of support, my friend and family. My

:29:50.:29:54.

committee has been loyal and supportive, I'm grateful for that,

:29:55.:29:57.

it has been extremely difficult. Sarah Pine, doesn't Ben's experience

:29:58.:30:02.

illustrate exactly why there should be anonymity for those accused? No,

:30:03.:30:08.

I don't think so. I think in these cases what tends to happen is that

:30:09.:30:12.

if someone is able to be named this can encourage other people to come

:30:13.:30:16.

forward. You look at cases like the Jimmy Savile case, and scores of

:30:17.:30:19.

people would not have come forward unless he could have been named in

:30:20.:30:22.

the press. Being able to name people is something that helps police

:30:23.:30:26.

investigations go much smoother, because it can encourage more people

:30:27.:30:31.

to come forward. But Jimmy Savile was extreme example and somebody who

:30:32.:30:35.

had passed away, he was dead before these accusations came into the

:30:36.:30:38.

public domain, it is a very different case isn't it? I don't

:30:39.:30:41.

think so. Because I think there are other reasons why it is important to

:30:42.:30:44.

be able to name people who have been arrested for these crimes. For

:30:45.:30:49.

example like you said, don't keep anonymity for people that are

:30:50.:30:52.

arrested of other crimes, by making this crime a special case it sends a

:30:53.:30:57.

message that survivors of sexual violence, whoever they may be should

:30:58.:31:00.

not come forward because they won't be believed, that the state will act

:31:01.:31:04.

to protect any potential perpetrators more than they will any

:31:05.:31:08.

potential victims. What about the principle of innocent until proven

:31:09.:31:14.

guilty, we are not talking about the particularities of this case. But

:31:15.:31:17.

here, you are involved in a campaign to encourage a boy coat of --

:31:18.:31:28.

boycott of an internationally renowned organisation, did that

:31:29.:31:31.

break the principle that have? I have never passed a judgment on

:31:32.:31:36.

Ben's case, I think it is inappropriate, however... . What

:31:37.:31:41.

about the boycott That never broke innocent until proven guilty. The

:31:42.:31:45.

general secretary of Interpol, an internationally renowned lawyer and

:31:46.:31:49.

expert on these matters said that it is always appropriate, when someone

:31:50.:31:53.

is arrested for these crimes that they stand down or are suspended

:31:54.:31:56.

until any investigations are completed. That sends a very

:31:57.:32:01.

respectful message to any survivors of sexual violence, because it shows

:32:02.:32:05.

that what they say and any allegations that they make will be

:32:06.:32:09.

taken seriously. One Show in four women whilst -- when one in four

:32:10.:32:14.

women whilst at university will experience sexual assault, this is a

:32:15.:32:18.

particularly poise I don't knowous approach. You took part in a

:32:19.:32:23.

campaign that whipped up something that was not proven, that does

:32:24.:32:27.

violate the principle, does it not? We had campaign that was based upon

:32:28.:32:31.

the fact that the Union should not have acted in the way it did. It was

:32:32.:32:34.

never against Ben, we talked about the way the Union allocated its

:32:35.:32:39.

funds for his legal fees and they had no policy to deal with these

:32:40.:32:44.

sorts of things, we talked about the messages continually being put out

:32:45.:32:47.

by the Union, you said it was a campaign against one man, it was a

:32:48.:32:50.

campaign against an institution. But there was a national, indeed

:32:51.:32:54.

international outcry you had Nobel Prize whippers refusing to appear --

:32:55.:32:59.

winners refusing to appear at the union. Was it appropriate for you to

:33:00.:33:03.

invite that kind of scrutiny and attention? I have absolutely no

:33:04.:33:07.

regrets regarding the campaign. I just like to say I agree with a lot

:33:08.:33:12.

of what Sarah just said, for one second I don't think she has broken

:33:13.:33:16.

the principle of innocent until proven guilty, some people have but

:33:17.:33:20.

Sarah never has, and I'm incredibly grateful for that, honestly. I think

:33:21.:33:25.

it has obviously been a very difficult time for me and my

:33:26.:33:28.

committee, for the union, obviously I said before my family. I don't

:33:29.:33:32.

agree with everything Sarah said about the boycott. But I do think, I

:33:33.:33:39.

don't doubt that the organisers do have good intentions, I do agree

:33:40.:33:43.

sexual violence at university is a serious problem at Oxford and other

:33:44.:33:46.

universities. We need to be careful not to let individual cases get

:33:47.:33:50.

intertwined with the general, because a general problem, just

:33:51.:33:53.

because there is a general problem that doesn't mean an individual is

:33:54.:33:58.

necessarily... Thank you very much indeed for coming in to discuss this

:33:59.:34:04.

tonight. Now then, the former FA cup and UEFA Cup winner Garth Crooks and

:34:05.:34:10.

former Spurs and Newcastle winger who won 17 caps for France, David

:34:11.:34:18.

Ginola, join me to conduct a sad post ortem on England football, it

:34:19.:34:21.

didn't go too well tonight. Here we have two of the industry's finest to

:34:22.:34:28.

dissect what went wrong. The finest. David is pointing to you first, is

:34:29.:34:34.

that it, is it all over, does this small tiny shred of mathematical

:34:35.:34:40.

miracles? I'm very disappointed, I have just left a huge audience of

:34:41.:34:45.

people and pundits and we are all shocked and saddened. I think it is

:34:46.:34:48.

a night for hysteria, to be honest. I think it is a night for calm

:34:49.:34:54.

reflection. Calm reflection in football! We don't get much of it,

:34:55.:35:01.

do we. To be honest with you. I have just decided with David here, and he

:35:02.:35:07.

has some very strong issues about the way the English play or the

:35:08.:35:12.

national team play. As a team. There are many points that he makes that I

:35:13.:35:16.

would agree with, but you know what I think we have to be very careful

:35:17.:35:19.

not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's hear some of the

:35:20.:35:22.

strong points, what is your diagnosis on why it appears to

:35:23.:35:29.

happen again and again? I'm pretty sad about not just the result but

:35:30.:35:34.

the manner. You expect a team to go to play in the World Cup in Brazil

:35:35.:35:39.

first of all to enjoy yourself. You need to see players to really enjoy

:35:40.:35:43.

themselves on the football pitch, playing together, as a team, playing

:35:44.:35:48.

for England for the people back in England, watches the games. I was

:35:49.:35:52.

watching the game with 200 fans tonight. They were so disappointed,

:35:53.:35:59.

obviously they were disappointed they lost tonight and against

:36:00.:36:08.

Uruguay, it is almost done. They realised they will go back to

:36:09.:36:13.

England with plenty of regrets. Expectations were lower, shouldn't

:36:14.:36:16.

people just accept it? If you look at the squad and take players

:36:17.:36:20.

individually, you can see quality there. You can see plenty of

:36:21.:36:25.

qualities. Your spent they should be better but they don't play as a

:36:26.:36:29.

team? It is no way if you, you need to pass the ball more than three

:36:30.:36:36.

times without losing it, you need to possess the ball. This is the key in

:36:37.:36:41.

modern football. So Garth is that true, should England fans be feeling

:36:42.:36:46.

let down because they don't gel together as a team? English fans

:36:47.:36:51.

when they lose feel let down, we are all disappointed tonight. Maybe they

:36:52.:36:56.

should have lower expectations. We are playing a better brand of

:36:57.:37:00.

football than we were ten years ago, it is more pleasing on the eye, we

:37:01.:37:04.

try to pass, maybe not with great success. It is not getting them very

:37:05.:37:08.

far, tonight Uruguay have got three million people and they managed to

:37:09.:37:12.

beat the team? But they have a very good football team. Why is that

:37:13.:37:17.

then? They have a very good football team. And so do Italy. They both

:37:18.:37:21.

have very good football teams. I'm not making any excuses for the fact

:37:22.:37:26.

we have lost, we are disappointed. I can't affect the result, I'm trying

:37:27.:37:30.

to look ahead and say, look what positives can we get out of the fact

:37:31.:37:39.

that we have Ross Barclay, Sterly, Lelana, new exciting players coming

:37:40.:37:43.

through. We mustn't lose sight of that. I have a slight problem with

:37:44.:37:47.

this, because he mentioned those players, and they are very, very

:37:48.:37:52.

talented players, but when you look at them playing for their clubs they

:37:53.:37:56.

are different players. They are much better playing for the clubs? I have

:37:57.:37:59.

been in a situation like that, playing for my country, and it is

:38:00.:38:03.

more difficult. Because you don't have much time to spend with the

:38:04.:38:07.

other players to work on the tactics on the relationship, on the links

:38:08.:38:12.

with the players. So you need to be intelligent, you need to be smart,

:38:13.:38:16.

you need to be quick. Shouldn't players be playing their heart out

:38:17.:38:21.

for their country, more so than for their club, how does that stack up?

:38:22.:38:25.

That is what David is talking about. He's talking about synergy, he's

:38:26.:38:29.

talking about all being able to connect. Liverpool who had a great

:38:30.:38:34.

season, Manchester City and Arsenal, it doesn't click in five minutes, it

:38:35.:38:39.

takes years. National teams don't quite have that. These days you get

:38:40.:38:46.

a month. Just finally to both of you, should Roy Hodgson stay in his

:38:47.:38:52.

job? Absolutely, come on. Come on. Absolutely stays in the job. Come

:38:53.:38:56.

on. England needs stability, they need to look at the future in a

:38:57.:39:01.

brighter way. They have got talented players, we talk about it and this

:39:02.:39:07.

is the bright future of England. But, to win major competitions they

:39:08.:39:12.

need to play as a team and not as individuals. We are disappointed but

:39:13.:39:16.

we are not hysterical. Thank you both very much for coming in. And

:39:17.:39:21.

who knows, Costa Rico Italy. Snore if you like, ignore at will, but

:39:22.:39:26.

more than a quarter of a billion people are signed up to the social

:39:27.:39:32.

network Twitter, its shares trade at nearly $40 a piece. Many of the

:39:33.:39:35.

world's leaders and footballers are falling over themselves to share

:39:36.:39:39.

their thoughts in 140 characters or less with those who have been game

:39:40.:39:43.

enough to follow them. Whether mainstream popularity like that

:39:44.:39:47.

turns out to be the death knell of what was once deeply cool, Twitter

:39:48.:39:51.

is a significant part of the on-line and political landscape.

:39:52.:40:03.

Twitter had sketchy beginnings, literally, its origins scrawled in

:40:04.:40:11.

the network of Jack Dorsey, he built it with coconspirator, the first

:40:12.:40:13.

tweet sent in 2006, one of the it with coconspirator, the first

:40:14.:40:20.

founders Biz Stone said they can be a force for good and make lots of

:40:21.:40:25.

money. It spread fast among the geeks, Ashton Kucher was the first

:40:26.:40:34.

to reach one million followers, and the politicians took a long time to

:40:35.:40:41.

catch up. The innantness of Twitter means too many twits might make a

:40:42.:40:48.

twit! That might seem a little left behind. Twitter is the largest

:40:49.:40:51.

political soapbox of it all, even the Pope is on board, and a Wall

:40:52.:40:57.

Street float left its creators very wealthy men. Biz Stone has now

:40:58.:41:06.

written the story of how micromessaging, can in his view

:41:07.:41:09.

change the world. Spreading the news of the crash on the Hudson, well

:41:10.:41:13.

before traditional media caught on, to providing a voice for activists

:41:14.:41:16.

during the Arab Spring to be heard around the world. Big change can

:41:17.:41:27.

come in small packages. Biz Stone the cofound founder is -- the

:41:28.:41:32.

cofounder is with us now. You invented a way of sending messages

:41:33.:41:38.

for 140 characters or less, but chosen to write a book with tens of

:41:39.:41:43.

thousands of words, why? I was asked to deliver masterclass at a

:41:44.:41:48.

university last year and it became something all around the world. I

:41:49.:41:53.

noticed high schools and CEOs found the lessons I learned throughout my

:41:54.:41:57.

life and at Twitter resonated with them. When someone asked me to write

:41:58.:42:02.

a book, I thought what shall I write a book about it and I thought I

:42:03.:42:08.

would base it on the lecture. You could have written it on-line, or

:42:09.:42:12.

put it on-line for free, you chose a more traditional way of publishing?

:42:13.:42:23.

I wanted to create an act at the artefact. I came from publishing and

:42:24.:42:27.

I liked the idea of it. When you started out with your friends on the

:42:28.:42:32.

west coast, it happened by accident during a hack aen to, as you

:42:33.:42:36.

describe it in the book. What did you think Twitter would be when you

:42:37.:42:39.

started? It was more something that was fun. We wanted to, our first

:42:40.:42:46.

attempt at creating a start-up after leaving Google had failed, and we

:42:47.:42:49.

just said let's just work on something that we're interested in.

:42:50.:42:53.

That is all it was. It was just joyful. When did you realise it was

:42:54.:42:57.

something that could actually be big and people would use it in all sorts

:42:58.:43:00.

of different ways you didn't expect, when did you realise? My perception

:43:01.:43:05.

of Twitter was profoundly changed in March 2007 when I went to a

:43:06.:43:09.

technology conference and I noticed that this was the first time we were

:43:10.:43:12.

seeing Twitter in the wild and I heard a story about a man who was at

:43:13.:43:17.

a pub, wanted to, noticed the pub was too loud and wanted to talk with

:43:18.:43:22.

his friends so he sent out a tweet saying let's move to the other pub,

:43:23.:43:27.

in the eight minutes it took to move to the pub, there was lines out the

:43:28.:43:33.

doors. Plan backfired. He sent a tweet his followers decided it was a

:43:34.:43:38.

good idea, and they tweeted. The image was a flock of birds moving

:43:39.:43:43.

around a bird in flight, something that looks choreographed and

:43:44.:43:47.

planned, but the mechanics of flocking are simple. You saw it

:43:48.:43:50.

changing behaviour? It was the only time ever seen a technology allow

:43:51.:43:57.

human beings in real time to behave as one organism, it chilled me.

:43:58.:44:02.

Chilled you, that's interesting, you thought that was frightening? That

:44:03.:44:06.

was a party what if it had been, the thing I thought what if it had been

:44:07.:44:10.

something dramatic, something important, something serious like a

:44:11.:44:13.

disaster. That's when we went back and created Twitter Incorporated,

:44:14.:44:21.

before that it was a protect. Ject. Then you had the American state

:44:22.:44:27.

department not to close your servers so Twitter could be up and running

:44:28.:44:31.

during demonstrations in Iran. Asked us. At one moment it was in a

:44:32.:44:38.

conference for professional geeks and the next affecting

:44:39.:44:43.

demonstrations in countries hundreds of miles away? It entered the world

:44:44.:44:47.

stage, it became part of the vocabulary of the world stage. We

:44:48.:44:51.

were mentioned, the Twitter brand name got linked to a lot of things.

:44:52.:44:56.

But I always maintain that it was about the people, it was about the

:44:57.:44:59.

brave people who were bleeding and dying on the streets and it was, if

:45:00.:45:04.

Twitter was to be a triumph it was to be a triumph of humanity not

:45:05.:45:10.

technology. There is a dark side to humanity, Twitter is also catnip for

:45:11.:45:14.

people who want to abuse other people, who want to be unpleasant,

:45:15.:45:20.

who want to post abusive sometimes graphic hidious messages. Even ISIS

:45:21.:45:25.

have been using Twitter. How do you feel about that? In order to create

:45:26.:45:31.

the platform for freedom of speech you have to honour freedom of

:45:32.:45:36.

speech, you can't cure rate that, as soon as -- curate that, conditions

:45:37.:45:45.

you do that you lose the trust of the people. People are basically and

:45:46.:45:48.

fundamentally good, way more people are good than bad. You have to take

:45:49.:45:56.

the good with the bad in the large scale platforms. Could Twitter

:45:57.:46:01.

disappear, a few years ago MySpace was huge, and we have seen, tech

:46:02.:46:06.

companies come and go, we are fickle. Could it disappear? I see

:46:07.:46:11.

Twitter as a company of enduring value. Something that is proven that

:46:12.:46:18.

it is of value to everyone from personal individuals to heads of

:46:19.:46:22.

state, to organisations, so I think it is here to stay. I won't ask you

:46:23.:46:29.

to put it into 140 characters. That's all we have time for good

:46:30.:46:39.

night. Thanks for watching. Pressure is high this side of the

:46:40.:46:48.

Atlantic, another dry day for most of us on Friday. Sunny spells. The

:46:49.:46:52.

winds light for the most part, breezy around western coasts for

:46:53.:46:58.

example, but some cloud, some sunshine. A decent-looking day

:46:59.:47:01.

across Northern Ireland. Cloud around the northern coasts, the

:47:02.:47:05.

cloudiest weather in the North West Highlands of Scotland up to the

:47:06.:47:09.

Northern Isles, one or two spots of rain, cool

:47:10.:47:11.