Browse content similar to 23/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
They are young British and fighting for ISIS, who is persuading | :00:00. | :00:10. | |
teenagers from Coventry to fly to Syria and persue Jihad? We ask their | :00:11. | :00:19. | |
parents. TRANSLATION: The Iman of the mosque who lives in our area, | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
organised classes for them after evening prayers, he encouraged them | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
and sent them down this road. The F-word is flying in Polish, we hear | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
what Poland's Foreign Minister thinks of our PM's Europe policy. He | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
BEEPed up, he's not interested, because he believes the stupid | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
propaganda. She was the Afrikaans racist who went to become Nelson | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
Mandela's most trusted confident, she went to see him with stem ma | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
and... Jeremy Clarkson. When he came in he said Mr Mandela have you had a | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
lap dance, a person of that age doesn't know what that is. Good | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
evening, they borrowed money, removed their passports and headed | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
off to find Jihad. Three young teenagers, friends from Coventry | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
have been lured to Syria to fight for ISIS. The boys never told their | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
parents, one father tells us his son was brainwashed by the local Imam. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
They are believed to be amongst 500 Britons who have joined the conflict | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
in Syria. MI5 tells us the security threat they pose on their return | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
will be a top priority. What makes a kid studying computer science give | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
it all up to risk his life. This film is from BBC Afghan. Three young | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
teenagers, friends from Coventry, they all left home and are now in | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
Syria. Apparently lured in by the militant group ISIS. Their families | :01:58. | :02:07. | |
are in shock. The father of one of the boys, 18-year-old Ali, who is of | :02:08. | :02:17. | |
Afghan origin spoke to us exclusively. He said Ali was | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
planning to study computer science, and last February he asked for his | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
passport. He told his parents it was for university paperwork. He also | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
borrowed ?1,000 for one -- from one of his brothers, saying it was for a | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
computer. In fact it was for a plane ticket. Ali hadn't admitted it to | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
his family, but his father believes he has joined ISIS. | :02:42. | :03:06. | |
What is your biggest fear of what might happen to Ali now he's in | :03:07. | :03:27. | |
Syria? At least two of the three teenagers | :03:28. | :03:54. | |
went to this small local mosque. Their parents believe that it was an | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
Imam here who encouraged their sons to go to Syria. We have just been to | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
the mosque to speak to the Imam, he refused to give us an interview, but | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
he completely denies these allegations. Ali and his two friends | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
set out from Coventry travelling to Birmingham where they then flew to | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
Frankfurt and from there to Turkey. They are now believed to be in | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
Syria, near the city of Aleppo. The police were informed of their | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
absence just after they flew out. It was too late. The father of one of | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
the other teenagers who travelled with Ali told me that family members | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
went to the Turkish Syrian border in the hope of finding the boys. Rashid | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
hasn't told his family much about his activities in Syria, but they | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
are worried he has joined ISIS. They tried to bring him back if possible | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
they would find him somewhere in Turkey or somewhere. But they didn't | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
find him. After 15 or 16 days. They came back, empty handed. That must | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
have been very difficult for you? Yeah, it is also dangerous to go | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
there. And I don't know, maybe the border is dangerous to be there, but | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
any way we went to them. Because my family, my background is not | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
extremist, we don't like them, we hate them. I don't know what | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
happened to him, maybe somebody worked with him. Maybe somebody | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
brainwashed him. Because he was not like that. So who are these three | :05:28. | :05:37. | |
teenagers? Rashid was studying business, recently he became more | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
religious and grew a beard and attending prayers in the mosque | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
regularly. That didn't worry his family. At one time Ali tried to get | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
into modelling, but things changed and he became more religious. The | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
third teenager, Mohammed appeared a normal youngster and then started | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
expressing strong views about Syria, and apparently last month he tweeted | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
saying he had joined ISIS. The three young men are said to be among 500 | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
Britons who have joined the conflict in Syria during the last three | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
years. MI5 says the possible threat from those returning is their number | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
one fright priority. But tracking all of them down after they come to | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
the UK will be a difficult task. The families of those boys feel helpless | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
and say it is up to the Government to secure their return. The one hope | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
is the Government. The Government and media has to help us bring them | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
back. That's it. I can't do, as a person, an individual person, I | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
can't do nothing. They are united by grief and say they just want their | :06:42. | :07:00. | |
sons back. If you could speak to Ali now, what | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
would you tell him? That was Ali's father. He believes | :07:03. | :07:40. | |
his son is now fighting Jihad. We're joined by our guests from The Muslim | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
Council of Britain, Lord Carlyle the former reviewer of terrorism in | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
Britain. And a former extremist and expert on radicalisation. | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
I wanted to start with you, these families think their sons have been | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
radicalised by an Imam from the local mosque. What would be your | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
response to that? I think if we have evidence of this then our police and | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
our Security Services have to take action against this individual. I | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
believe that this is a very complex area, I don't believe one single | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
speech can turn someone. The footage showed concern about the young boys | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
growing beards, all my sons, those who are of that age have beards, I | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
have a very long beard. I think we need to be very, very careful and | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
sensitive about how we tackle the whole issue. But this is not about | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
beards and this is not coming from outside, this is the parents who are | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
saying that over a course of months they believe the messages that were | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
coming out from one individual in one mosque was influencing their | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
sons to the point where they took off to fight for their lives? Indeed | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
it is not about beards that is what I'm saying, we don't trivialise this | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
into discussions about beards. These are teenagers, let's look at maybe | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
Shiraz can tell us more about this, what life have these teenagers seen. | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
They have grown up through a decade of wars and fighting on the back of | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
an illegal war in Iraq, the wars in Afghanistan. They have grown through | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
measures of security and county councillor terrorism which are | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
unprecedented. They have gone through a period of demonisation in | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
the media, every single day their faith and their... Does that sound | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
right to you, is that what is at root here, we are going back to the | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
war in Iraq or is this now about a much more localised fight within | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
Iran, within Syria? I agree it is an incredibly complex problem, we have | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
to avoid demonising young Muslim men, particularly as 99. 9% | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
recurring of Muslims in this country are totally opposed to this kind of | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
action. And indeed I think the authorities would confirm that the | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
closest and most important partners in detecting people who might become | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
terrorists and deradicalising them are the Muslim community themselves. | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Mothers, wives, sisters, do not want their husbands, brothers, sons to | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
become Jihadists and run the risk of being killed in a Civil War. But we | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
have to have a more structured approach to it. The Prevent Policy, | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
that part of counter terrorism focussed on antiradicalisation is | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
working extremely well in some place, Middlesborough, and to a | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
great extent Birmingham, despite recent education problems. But there | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
are other places it is barely functioning at all. And we need to | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
ensure that the funding that the Home Office provides is used to best | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
advantage, and not, by the way, by the police. Is that really right | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
then, it comes down to funding, it comes down to sort of the | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
localisation of places where Prevent is working and it isn't. You know | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
what it is like to have been extremist. Is it that easily | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
stopped? I think the issue now with Prevent and these types of | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
programmes is they were very much focussed in the past to dealing with | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
a kind of civilisational conflict, the idea that the west was at war in | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Islam, so Prevent was trying to suck out some of the heat and tension | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
people felt around those issues. That narrative is completely | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
changed, this is where I would disagree with the Sheikh. People | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
talking about the conflict in Syria and the conflict in Iraq are not | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
being motivated by the same narratives of the past, they are | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
being motivated now by a sectarian conflict, where they believe they | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
have the opportunity to go in and affect change on the ground and | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
establish a Khalafit. Are there British fighters in Iraq? Not that | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
we know. I was speaking to a British member of ISIS, he says there are no | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Brits as yet that have crossed over. This is their group, this is their | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
organisation, they are waiting for their Marching orders. -- marching | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
orders. Do you believe it has to come from within the mosques or the | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
Muslim communities or is it work for the police or the legislation? In | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
the past we have seen preachers who have operated, who have radicalised | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
people and sort of inspired them to do things. What is slightly | :12:13. | :12:14. | |
different now about the Syrian conflict is the use of social media. | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
That is the single most important recruitment driver at the moment. In | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
the past what you would have is you would get an Al-Qaeda video that | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
would be union low-directional, and tell people to do things. Now you | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
have hundreds of fighters on the ground giving a live feed on what is | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
happening and they engage in conversation. We see young people | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
reaching out to them saying you are in Syria, just like me, how can I be | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
part of this. It is the individual people who have become empowered to | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
become recruiters in their own right. We have all seen the viral | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
videos preaching hate, I guess the question is where are the viral | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
videos that don't preach hate. Are the voices loud enough saying this | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
is a dumb thing to do? Absolutely, we can't dismiss the fertile ground | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
that is present in the decade or two in which these young people have | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
grown up, which has allowed them to sow the seeds of that anger and | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
hatred. What we need to say is The Muslim Council of Britain is very, | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
very clear with the position of Islam and as British Muslims that | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
this is wrong. To go and involve ourselves in conflict abroad doesn't | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
serve anybody any good. The way you can help the people of Iraq, to help | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
the people of Syria is to remain in this country. Do you think that | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
voice is being heard? No I don't. We do hear it from The Muslim Council | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
of Britain? I don't, I think the counter narrative is weak, if there | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
is a weakness in the Prevent Policy, it is that it does not build a | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
sufficient counter narrative. There is a weakness which I would urge | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
very respectfully upon the Sheikh is that the Muslim communities are | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
dominated by rather older men and there are plenty of young leaders | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
out there, young men and women, brilliant in the professions and | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
business, who would be like to be given the leadership of that | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
community and would be able to present a more convincing counter | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
narrative than we are receiving at the moment. At the end of the day, | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
what we are doing is not only trying to prevent people taking part in | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
heretical, violent extremism, religiously heretical violent | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
extremism, but we are trying to do our duty of protecting it our own | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
country and citizens from violence. But the state cannot tell young | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
Muslim men how to interpret their own religion, it has to come from | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
the newer members and the invigorated members, presumably you | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
agree with that? The state has no business in the interpretation and | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
practice of religion, where I would support the suggestion about the | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
counter narrative is let's strengthen it. Let's work | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
collectively together. If we put this problem at the doors of Imams | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
and mosques and say that is your problem and you deal with it, we | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
won't see any success. Let's see in Coventry we have seen it. Let us | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
work together, collectively, Government agencies, Muslim | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
communities, Imams and wider society. These boys are not Muslim | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
boys, they are British boys, these are our boys who have gone away. It | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
feels like we have been this sort of narrative chat for ten years, a | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
decade almost, and yet it doesn't, it hasn't stopped the next round of | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
fighters going to ISIS? No it wasn't. What we're seeing is the | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
debate has morphed unfortunately. The discourse has shied into the | :15:36. | :15:45. | |
intra-Muslim. The strength of feeling hasn't changed? It has | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
morphed into a new stage. Before the state was talking about what it was | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
doing, and telling Muslims its policies weren't weighted against | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
them for example. Now you have this very dynamic internal situation in | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
Syria and Iraq that we don't really have a stake in, the Government has | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
to find smarter ways. One thing is could do is highlight the fact of | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
all the British deaths in Syria, only one came from a fighter | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
fighting against the regime, all the rest game from the infighting. They | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
are going through to fight in gangs against one another, they are not | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
fighting the regime. . Thank you for coming in. | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
This was the day the three jeers journalists imprisoned in the Cairo | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
jail for six months expected to walk free. Instead they were met with | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
seven-year prison sentences, one longer, a stark reminder of the | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
incomprehensible Egyptian legal system and its attempts to censor | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
press freedom. They were charged with attempting to oust the Muslim | :16:48. | :16:57. | |
Brotherhood. Jeers has called the sentences outrageously, Al-Jazeera | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
has called the sentences outrageous. They expected to be freed through | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
lack of evidence. When the sentences were read out the court erupted. | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
Peter Greste punched the bars in frustration, the families received | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
the news dumb founded in their homes. Peter Greste and five other | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
defendants present, my God, my God, sorry. That's crazy. The charges | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
against them are helping a terrorist group in spreading false news, | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
spurious charges, their news organisation claimed, politically | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
and economically motivated. The British PM and the US Secretary of | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
State have been quick to condemn the verdicts and their sentences. | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
It is a chilling and draconian sentence. You know it is deeply | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
disturbing to see in the midst of Egypt's transition. It simply cannot | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
stand if Egypt is going to be able to move forward in the way that | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Egypt needs to move forward. What is still unclear is how quickly an | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
appeal process can begin and whether the international voices of | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
condemnation are prepared to add actions to their words. A little | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
while ago I spoke to Peter Greste's brother, Michael, who was in court | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
today. What did you go through when you | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
heard that verdict being handed down? I was just stunned, to begin | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
with. I couldn't believe what I just heard, I still have difficulty in | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
comprehending it all. It is just a totally baffling and utterly | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
disappointing and deflating decision. And you had to make the | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
phone call to your parents back home. Yeah, there was a very tough | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
call to make. Obviously my parents are extremely distressed and upset | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
by the decision as well. But we will have to pick ourselves up and | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
continue to fight. What do you think Peter's response will be to this | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
now? Look it is very hard to say, quite often we go into the prison | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
after a court appearance and what seems like a bit of a setback and | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
think that we have to go and pick him up, but only to find that he's | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
the one who is ending up picking us up. He's extremely strong in | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
character and very resolved. Can you describe the conditions he's in at | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
the moment, how is he living? They are quite depressing, he shares a | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
cell with his two other colleagues. The cell is three by four metres in | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
area. There is a very small opening in the door to their cell and then | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
there's another very small window which is very high up on the wall. | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
They don't receive any direct sunlight at this time of year. And | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
they are locked away in that cell for 23 hours of the day. That's six | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
days a week, and on Friday they are locked away for the whole day. So | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
they are permitted reading material and newspapers but any other form of | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
entertainment is refused. I tried to take a deck of cards in with me on a | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
visit and that was just handed straight back to me and refused. The | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
boys tried to fashion a rudimentry homemade sort of back gammon board | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
but that was taken off them. Extremely hard and oppressive | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
conditions. Do you think that US money is able to open doors now. We | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
know some $700 million have come in through security and military | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
assistance, is this the route that you think Egypt will take to release | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
them? It is very difficult to identify, but obviously you know if | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
they have any form of diplomatic pressure and encouragement to you | :20:52. | :21:00. | |
know produce a just and fair result is to be commended and encouraged. | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
We don't have any control over those decisions, but certainly diplomacy | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
is another avenue that we would strongly you know appreciate and | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
condone. Do you feel that the international community has been as | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
supportive as they can over this? It is difficult to assess, but I | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
certainly think after today's decision there has been a very | :21:27. | :21:37. | |
strong and huge backlash from the international community and that is | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
encouraging signs. What is your final message to the Egyptian | :21:42. | :21:43. | |
Government tonight? I would like them to think about and have a look | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
at the decision that has been made and if they are truly on the path to | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
democracy then they will review the decision and overturn it. And you | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
know free these journalist who is are completely innocent and have no | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
guilt whatsoever towards the charges that they faced. Thank you very | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
much, thank you. I'm joined now from Doha by the British journalist from | :22:12. | :22:26. | |
all mal areas year a, Al-Jazeera. I wonder if this has made you think | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
twice about reporting as a journalist? Not at all. I have been | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
a reporter for 25 years, 12 of those with Channel 4 News in the UK. And | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
you know it is kind of what I always wanted to do for a living and I | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
probably will die still doing this job. This is a horrendous setback | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
for all of us involved in this. For all of Al Jazeera now, who are | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
looking to the guys in prison and wondering how they can pick | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
themselves up and stay positive and keep fighting this decision by the | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
Egyptian and to get them out. And we are not going to stop being | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
journalists, we may not be able to report from Cairo, but we will | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
certainly try to report what is going on in Egypt still. One of the | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
most insidious responses to something like this is often | :23:20. | :23:29. | |
self-censorship, I wonder inside Al Jazeera, there has been a change or | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
shift, is there in the way you are reporting news or willing to report | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
news? Not at all. I mean most of my colleagues here are English, a lot | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
of them I would say are former BBC journalists, former ITN, former ABC, | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
NBC journalists. We all come from different backgrounds from much of | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
the western media. And we all, we come toal jazz AlJazeera with | :23:56. | :24:07. | |
different attitude, we won't censor ourselves, we work in countries all | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
over the world and have different bureaus all over the world. A lot of | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
the time we are facing different environments. I covered the whole | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
Libyan revolution, and had been in and out of Syria in a lot of years | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
in different conflict zones we don't self-censorship our selves in that | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
respect and never will. Michael hinted today the intnational | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
community had rallied but possibly not enough beforehand. I wonder if | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
you felt that there wasn't enough strength of feeling before today | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
happened for your colleagues? No, I wouldn't say that, I have been all | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
over, trying to keep this campaign going, I have been to DC to talk to | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
the state department, I have been in the UK Foreign Office, we have been | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
talking to all the different media channels across the world. They have | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
done everything they can think of to try to put pressure on the Egyptian | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
Government. The one thing possibly I would say is we all started to | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
believe the best was going to happen today. From when the Al Jazeera | :25:12. | :25:19. | |
Arabic journalist was released last week after being on hunger strike, | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
we thought maybe Egypt's tide had turned, he hadn't charges against | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
him and the authorities released him. Maybe they were recognising the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
guys that we had in prison here would also be released because all | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
they were doing is their jobs as. We know there is six days to appeal, | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
many thanks for that. She had a ring side seat throughout | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
the presidential lifetime of one of the world's greatest statesmen ever | :25:49. | :25:58. | |
Zelda L e Grange became his most trusted confidant, a self-confessed | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
racist who voted in favour of apartheid. She described Mandela's | :26:02. | :26:09. | |
views on schtum had a, Thatcher and Jeremy Clarkson, I asked her how her | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
views had changed. I was a racist and happily lived apartheid and | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
happily did so up to the age of 23. Because it was completely acceptable | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
in my environment to live apartheid. Was there ever a voice in your head | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
at that time questioning what you had been brought up to believe? Up | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
to the age of 23 nothing, not one single question. I voted against the | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
abolishment of apartheid in our last referendum in South Africa, that's | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
how strongly I felt to protect the white supremacy in South Africa. | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
Fast forward and you were working in the administrative department of the | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
President's office. You met him and you had an urge to apologise? Yes, | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
it is the strangest feeling and set of emotions that you can experience, | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
suddenly the man I feared my entire life, that I thought was my enemy | :27:08. | :27:16. | |
extends a hand to me, and speaks to me in my home language. I have to | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
ask him to repeat himself because I was so shocked I didn't realise he | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
was speaking to me in Afrikaans, my own language. Immediately you go | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
into shock. Then I could see he was visibly old, I could see the | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
kindness in his eyes and the sincerity of his smile. I was just | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
overcome by emotion, I was crying, I was really full on sobbing. You feel | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
sonsable responsible and I wanted to apologise immediately. Why didn't | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
you? First of all he didn't give me a chance, he was asking too many | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
questions. Secondly he could see that I was crying, so I think that | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
may have been an indication to him that I felt sorry, you know. I felt | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
I had remorse. Do you think there was a guilt element as well, do you | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
think that was why? From my side or his side, from my side. I think at | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
first definitely but after a while it was really I poured my heart and | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
soul into supporting this man. Not because I felt guilty but really | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
because I started adoring him, because he was really interested in | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
me, he gave me the opportunity of a lifetime. So you have to reciprocate | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
and I did so with loyalty. It sounds like you were a bit in love with | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
him? As a grandfather figure, almost, maybe, yes. I was never | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
blind to his mistakes. We had difficult times. You know having | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
different opinions about things. He knew I was very niave, I was stupid | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
and young, and not schooled really for that job. But he kind of took me | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
and moulded me. You were important to him, as an Afrikaner. It was | :28:54. | :29:05. | |
important to show the world he was representative of all minority | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
groups even those who represented the apartheid Government. He didn't | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
only allay fears with the Afrikaneres and the people who | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
represented those people but the rest of the world. Once in office | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
the world stateman there was a steady stream of celebrities who | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
would come paying homage, whatever, what did you make of the way people | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
treated him, and the questions they asked. You were a fly-on-the-wall? | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
He had a special way of attracting a particular kind of person. And he | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
became friends with certain people over the years, from the | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
celebrities, and the heads of state. Because of certain qualities in | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
those mostly respect. You also relate to people and you judge | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
people based on how they treat him. If it was respectful I liked people | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
who were respectful towards him. And if it wasn't. You cite the Jeremy | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
Clarkson moment? I think maybe that was just a clash of personalities | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
maybe. And Jeremy not understanding what to expect of a person of over | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
90 years old. Talk us through what happened, I have only heard a very | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
sketchy explanation for what happened, but you can tell? First of | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
all when Jeremy walked in he said oh Mr Mandela have you ever had a lap | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
dance. Now a person of that age doesn't really know what a lap dance | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
is, I don't know if people over 90 know what lap dance is, but I didn't | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
expect him to know and he appeared confused Mr Mandela and he looked at | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
me expecting me to rescue him in a way and I felt sorry for him of | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
course. I said to him no you don't have to answer that. What was Mr | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
Mandela's sense of where South Africa was heading after him z he | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
talk to you about the rule of Mbeki or stem ma? -- Zuma. He withdrew | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
from politics, and he wasn't as involved as he wanted to be. He | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
wanted to focus more on his family in his free time. He wasn't | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
interested in politics any longer. Not interested or disappointed? I | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
think he felt he did his duty and he couldn't do anything else. The one | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
thing he couldn't stand was dishonesty, and South Africa has a | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
problem right now with corruption. If Mr Mandela was in power and there | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
was corruption, he would deal with it immediately. The implication that | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
those that came after him didn't live up to that? They need to go | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
back to what people sacrificed their lives for. This is my opinion, this | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
is what Nelson Mandela, these people they sacrificed their lives for the | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
freedom of South Africans. We need to go back to those ideals. Thank | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
you. The F-word in Polish is something a few more of us may be | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
familiar with tonight. It was used extensively by their Foreign | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
Minister to describe David Cameron's incompetence in Europe. He didn't, | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
needless to say realise his conversation with his former Finance | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
Minister was being recorded, but the content, now released to a Polish | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
magazine about previous negotiations some months back are still pretty | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
devastating. David Cameron has this evening tweeted of a full and frank | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
conversation on the commission President. But there is a growing | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
sense in many quarters that the Polish minister could well be on the | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
money. I warn you if you speak Polish the following report contains | :32:51. | :33:00. | |
the original audio. Oxford man, Bullingdon Club member, a | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
distinguished minister who, until at least recently has been favourite to | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
succeed Baroness Ashton as Europe's Foreign Policy Chief. But in truth, | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
he's never been a fan of David Cameron's Europe policy. It is | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
difficult to lead a club which you are considering whether to stay in | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
or leave. So, yes, in that since you have weakened your hand. Now comes | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
something much harder to hear for the British Government. Bugged | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
conversations between Mr Sikorski and former Finance Minister, leaked | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
to a Polish news magazine, who have shared some of the material with | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Newsnight. The polls give Mr Cameron both verbals -- the Poles give Mr | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
Cameron both verbal barrels. TRANSLATION: He thinks he can go, | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
renegotiate and come back, no Polish Government can agree with that, only | :33:57. | :34:04. | |
in exchange for a mountain of gold. TRANSLATION: It is thought through | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
move his incompetence in European affairs, remember he locked up the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
fiscal part, he locked it up, simple as that, because he's not | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
interested, because he doesn't get it because he believes in this | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
stupid prop beganed DACHLT he stupidly tries to manipulate the | :34:19. | :34:25. | |
system. Tonight he condemned the leak as a crime. Demned | :34:26. | :34:36. | |
TRANSLATION: The Government was attacked by an organised criminal | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
group, we hope to gain the identity of the group members and first of | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
all their leaders. And that they will be identified and obviously | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
punished. But for the Prime Minister who played host today to outgoing | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
President of the European Council, the leaks could be highly | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
embarrassing showing that other Europeans think he is attempting to | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
change Europe before a referendum will fail. But for the Prime | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
Minister, who played host today to the outgoing President of the | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
European Council, the leaks could be highly embarrassing. Showing that | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
other Europeans think his attempts to change Europe before holding a | :35:15. | :35:26. | |
referendum will fail. TRANSLATION: I think paradoxically you know what | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
the consequences will be for us. TRANSLATION: Yes. TRANSLATION: Not | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
particularly good for us, generally bad for us, because we want Great | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
Britain to stay in. I think that it will be like this, he will lose this | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
election, Great Britain leaves. The leak comes at a perilous moment for | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
the Prime Minister, whose unsuccessful attempt to block the | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
candidacy of Jean-Claude Juncker as the next President of the European | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
Commission is causing tensions with Germany. The Polish tape scandal | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
comes at a particularly difficult time for Mr Cameron's Europe policy. | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
Germany is hardening its support for Mr Juncker. We have been told that | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
the Germans would regard any attempt by Britain to block his appointment | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
as a betrayal of rules agreed by all European countries seven years ago | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
with the Lisbon Treaty. The risks for Mr Cameron now are many, for | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
having invested so much prestige in stopping Mr Juncker, if he fails it | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
will empower the euro-sceptics. And those who share the private view of | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
his abilities expressed by the Polish Foreign Minister. | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
With me I have the chairman of Business for New Europe. And Peter | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
Liley, touted as a possible choice for the UK commissioner. . When you | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
have one of Cameron's mates talking like this, you kind of wonder who | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
needs enemies? He seemed to be in a rather foul-mouthed and thoughtless | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
mood, it brought discredit on him and absolutely no discredit to the | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
Prime Minister. Except what he was saying was "incompetence". He used | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
lots of foul words and some other insults. But they discredit him by | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
the very use. What he did say more rationally when he got on to that is | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
it was not in Poland's interest that Britain should leave Europe. I take | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
it from that they will be prepared to make concessions to work hard, to | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
keep us in, and I hope they do. Leave the obscenities aside and he | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
was talking about Cameron losing the next election, being driven by | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
stupid propaganda. He used the word "election", everything clearly | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
referring to the referendum. He talked about the problems with the | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
fiscal pact. Here is somebody who clearly does not believe's on the | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
right trajectory with what he's fighting for, whether or not he used | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
swear words? He also said it would not be in Poland's interest that | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
Britain leaves. I heard that. That I think means that we have a strong | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
position. It is not in anyone's interest in Europe that we leave. If | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
they want to keep us in, then they should reach accommodations. That is | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
how Europe ought to work. It shouldn't be take it or leave it, | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
let's ignore Britain's interest and everything. When all three parties | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
in Britain take the same view of Mr Juncker, and the manner in which he | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
is being foisted upon us, it is unwise, I would have thought, for | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
our friends and colleagues in Europe to ignore are. Just because you are | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
isolated doesn't mean you are wrong? No it doesn't, to be fair to the | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Prime Minister there is no question that Angela Merkel was on his side | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
at the beginning of this. She faces a backlash from her own MPs in | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
parliament who were absolutely adamant that Juncker should be, and | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
she folded and went with them. Of course it is a salutary warning that | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
we can't put all our eggs in the German basket, we have to build out | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
and build consensus. He should have chosen different language or broken | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
with her? You can't completely rely on one person, however even if it is | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
the most powerful person in Europe to get what you want. You have to | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
build allies right across. Which is precisely what I was trying to do. I | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
think that the Polish President said that was right, Britain is couching | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
its policies in terms of pan-European, not just in terms of | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
concessions, if we do that we will be sorely disappointed. Shouldn't he | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
have stuck his neck out, wasn't there a more diplomatic way of doing | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
this than clearly holding a position he has now lost? You don't win | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
anything. I had to negotiate for ten years with colleagues in Europe, we | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
never won if we didn't put our view forcefully and courteously and | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
winning as many allies across the world which is David Cameron is | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
doing. Are you suggesting every time you are not certain you could win | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
you should give in without a fight. You shouldn't give in, but you have | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
to realise you have lost this one, there is no point in having a vote | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
and finding you are just with Oban in Hungary, a pretty illiberal | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
country as it is. You don't want to be with that regime. You want to | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
fight for the reform agenda right now and try to get serious | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
concessions in terms of reform, rather than fighting an old battle | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
that has been lost. I guess the deal you will be looking at is one | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
possibly that will save face for Cameron, a good commissioner | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
position, do you know who is in the ring for that. Can I ask you whether | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
you have put your name into the ring or whether you would accept the job? | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
It is not up to me to put my name in the rin if I was offered it I would | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
accept it. Have you talked to anyone about it? I have talk to to people | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
but I haven't -- talked to people but I haven't been offered it and | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
they haven't come and talked to me. From the top end of Government? No, | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
so I probably won't be it. But it is a terribly important job, it is | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
important that we have someone with the right qualifications, who is not | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
going to go native as soon as they get the job and starting working for | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
a federal Europe but for the sort of Europe that Britain wants. And | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
someone who puts arguments cogently and forcefully within a democracy. | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
Do you think the barricades are up against whoever takes on that role, | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
do you think there is negotiation to be done. What can they win in that | :41:22. | :41:29. | |
role? I talk to ambassadors to a country quite close to us, he said | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
unfortunately we don't do consolation prizes in this game. It | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
will be tough. What I would add to what Peter said, you need somebody | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
with those qualities but who is actually willing to make allies and | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
actually fight for the corner in terms of fighting for what's | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
possible and not just fighting battles that look good back here, | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
but actually are achievable in Europe. Thank you both very much. | :41:52. | :42:04. | |
The second most highly paid athlete in the world has shown her rise on | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
the tennis stage. She graced Centre Court earlier today, in her only | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
television interslew she talked -- interview, she talked ahead of | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
Wimbledon. The most successful tennis player in Asian history. | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
She's the face of the Chinese game. Today she began her Wimbledon | :42:24. | :42:33. | |
campaign. She is fresh from winning the Australian Open, the second | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
Grand Slam of her career. The world number two may have passed you by, | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
but she's huge in China. Thanks to the TV close-ups so is her husband. | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
My husband is famous in China! She may like to repeat a joke but she's | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
witty for a sports star. I think I have to tell the truth. My husband | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
is more famous than me, no really, every time if I was working ing or | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
walking with my friend, nobody sees me, if I was walking with him they | :43:05. | :43:15. | |
are like this is Li Na's husband! Li Na is the second-highest female paid | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
athlete in the world, thanks to a string of endorsements from | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
companies who see her as their ticket to the increasingly lucrative | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
Chinese market. Such is our power she's the only player with a Nike | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
deal who can wear other sponsors on her clothes. She has helped | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
transform the Chinese tennis scene too, when she started out hardly | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
anybody played, now 15 million people do. The all England lawn | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
tennis club is hoping to use this Wimbledon tournament to lure more of | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
China's wealthy middle-class to a sport that is still not as popular | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
as ping pong. How many people are playing in China? A lot. Only in | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
Beijing, one city they have over 3,000 tennis courts. But always | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
fully booked, if you want to play you have to book in before. Is it a | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
massive transformation. Your parents I think when you started and the | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
coach said she should play tennis, they hadn't even heard of it? They | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
had never heard about tennis, what is tennis? Turns out tennis was the | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
game that brought Li Na $23 million so far, but it cost her. In brutal | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
state-run sports schools with constantly blistered palms because | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
there was no child-sized racquets, and knees, aged 14 she was not told | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
of her father's death for several days because she was playing a | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
tournament. She was also injected with steroids. You were never | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
praised you were always playing when you look back what do you see? If I | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
look back I think bravo for young Li Na because you never gave up, you | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
just continued to do that, so that is why make me famous right now. And | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
yet it was a bad experience at the time? This is life, you cannot have | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
the nice day like every day. The young Li Na was repeatedly called | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
stupid and pig by one coach. When she coached me in ten years she | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
never said I was good. She never praised you. So I was feeling a | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
little bit hurt in my heart. That is why after I think last year or the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
year before I was coming back, talked to her again and I say hey, | :45:37. | :45:45. | |
look you hurt me when I was young. Can I ask, there was a video doing | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
the rounds from a 2001 national championship, did you see that where | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
you got, it looked like you were being slapped by the person giving | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
the medal? I think this is making a joke, it was not a slap. It wasn't a | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
slap? No. That video of her winning only bronze went viral in China | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
where she has 23 million followers on the Twitter equivalent. She's | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
criticised at home for not appearing grateful enough to the Chinese | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
state. She was cautious when I asked her was she free about writing | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
anything on social media. Before I put anything on I have to think is | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
this right or not. I worry if I send the wrong message, the people will | :46:30. | :46:39. | |
wrongly use it. The right news is at 32 she's playing her best tennis in | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
a career that has mirrored the changes in China. The tennis scene | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
has liberalised economically like the country and she no longer has to | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
give 65% of her earning to the state. If she does win Wimbledon she | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
still has to hand over a tenth to the tennis federation back home. | :46:57. | :47:04. | |
That's all we have time for. Good night from all of us here. | :47:05. | :47:11. |