23/06/2014 Newsnight


23/06/2014

The British teens fighting for ISIS. Reaction to Egypt sentencing. Polish foreign minister on David Cameron. An interview with Mandela's PA. Tennis star Li Na on China.


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They are young British and fighting for ISIS, who is persuading

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teenagers from Coventry to fly to Syria and persue Jihad? We ask their

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parents. TRANSLATION: The Iman of the mosque who lives in our area,

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organised classes for them after evening prayers, he encouraged them

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and sent them down this road. The F-word is flying in Polish, we hear

:00:27.:00:30.

what Poland's Foreign Minister thinks of our PM's Europe policy. He

:00:31.:00:38.

BEEPed up, he's not interested, because he believes the stupid

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propaganda. She was the Afrikaans racist who went to become Nelson

:00:44.:00:49.

Mandela's most trusted confident, she went to see him with stem ma

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and... Jeremy Clarkson. When he came in he said Mr Mandela have you had a

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lap dance, a person of that age doesn't know what that is. Good

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evening, they borrowed money, removed their passports and headed

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off to find Jihad. Three young teenagers, friends from Coventry

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have been lured to Syria to fight for ISIS. The boys never told their

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parents, one father tells us his son was brainwashed by the local Imam.

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They are believed to be amongst 500 Britons who have joined the conflict

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in Syria. MI5 tells us the security threat they pose on their return

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will be a top priority. What makes a kid studying computer science give

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it all up to risk his life. This film is from BBC Afghan. Three young

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teenagers, friends from Coventry, they all left home and are now in

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Syria. Apparently lured in by the militant group ISIS. Their families

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are in shock. The father of one of the boys, 18-year-old Ali, who is of

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Afghan origin spoke to us exclusively. He said Ali was

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planning to study computer science, and last February he asked for his

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passport. He told his parents it was for university paperwork. He also

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borrowed ?1,000 for one -- from one of his brothers, saying it was for a

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computer. In fact it was for a plane ticket. Ali hadn't admitted it to

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his family, but his father believes he has joined ISIS.

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What is your biggest fear of what might happen to Ali now he's in

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Syria? At least two of the three teenagers

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went to this small local mosque. Their parents believe that it was an

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Imam here who encouraged their sons to go to Syria. We have just been to

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the mosque to speak to the Imam, he refused to give us an interview, but

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he completely denies these allegations. Ali and his two friends

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set out from Coventry travelling to Birmingham where they then flew to

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Frankfurt and from there to Turkey. They are now believed to be in

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Syria, near the city of Aleppo. The police were informed of their

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absence just after they flew out. It was too late. The father of one of

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the other teenagers who travelled with Ali told me that family members

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went to the Turkish Syrian border in the hope of finding the boys. Rashid

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hasn't told his family much about his activities in Syria, but they

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are worried he has joined ISIS. They tried to bring him back if possible

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they would find him somewhere in Turkey or somewhere. But they didn't

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find him. After 15 or 16 days. They came back, empty handed. That must

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have been very difficult for you? Yeah, it is also dangerous to go

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there. And I don't know, maybe the border is dangerous to be there, but

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any way we went to them. Because my family, my background is not

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extremist, we don't like them, we hate them. I don't know what

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happened to him, maybe somebody worked with him. Maybe somebody

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brainwashed him. Because he was not like that. So who are these three

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teenagers? Rashid was studying business, recently he became more

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religious and grew a beard and attending prayers in the mosque

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regularly. That didn't worry his family. At one time Ali tried to get

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into modelling, but things changed and he became more religious. The

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third teenager, Mohammed appeared a normal youngster and then started

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expressing strong views about Syria, and apparently last month he tweeted

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saying he had joined ISIS. The three young men are said to be among 500

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Britons who have joined the conflict in Syria during the last three

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years. MI5 says the possible threat from those returning is their number

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one fright priority. But tracking all of them down after they come to

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the UK will be a difficult task. The families of those boys feel helpless

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and say it is up to the Government to secure their return. The one hope

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is the Government. The Government and media has to help us bring them

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back. That's it. I can't do, as a person, an individual person, I

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can't do nothing. They are united by grief and say they just want their

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sons back. If you could speak to Ali now, what

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would you tell him? That was Ali's father. He believes

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his son is now fighting Jihad. We're joined by our guests from The Muslim

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Council of Britain, Lord Carlyle the former reviewer of terrorism in

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Britain. And a former extremist and expert on radicalisation.

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I wanted to start with you, these families think their sons have been

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radicalised by an Imam from the local mosque. What would be your

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response to that? I think if we have evidence of this then our police and

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our Security Services have to take action against this individual. I

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believe that this is a very complex area, I don't believe one single

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speech can turn someone. The footage showed concern about the young boys

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growing beards, all my sons, those who are of that age have beards, I

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have a very long beard. I think we need to be very, very careful and

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sensitive about how we tackle the whole issue. But this is not about

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beards and this is not coming from outside, this is the parents who are

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saying that over a course of months they believe the messages that were

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coming out from one individual in one mosque was influencing their

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sons to the point where they took off to fight for their lives? Indeed

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it is not about beards that is what I'm saying, we don't trivialise this

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into discussions about beards. These are teenagers, let's look at maybe

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Shiraz can tell us more about this, what life have these teenagers seen.

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They have grown up through a decade of wars and fighting on the back of

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an illegal war in Iraq, the wars in Afghanistan. They have grown through

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measures of security and county councillor terrorism which are

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unprecedented. They have gone through a period of demonisation in

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the media, every single day their faith and their... Does that sound

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right to you, is that what is at root here, we are going back to the

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war in Iraq or is this now about a much more localised fight within

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Iran, within Syria? I agree it is an incredibly complex problem, we have

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to avoid demonising young Muslim men, particularly as 99. 9%

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recurring of Muslims in this country are totally opposed to this kind of

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action. And indeed I think the authorities would confirm that the

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closest and most important partners in detecting people who might become

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terrorists and deradicalising them are the Muslim community themselves.

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Mothers, wives, sisters, do not want their husbands, brothers, sons to

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become Jihadists and run the risk of being killed in a Civil War. But we

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have to have a more structured approach to it. The Prevent Policy,

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that part of counter terrorism focussed on antiradicalisation is

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working extremely well in some place, Middlesborough, and to a

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great extent Birmingham, despite recent education problems. But there

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are other places it is barely functioning at all. And we need to

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ensure that the funding that the Home Office provides is used to best

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advantage, and not, by the way, by the police. Is that really right

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then, it comes down to funding, it comes down to sort of the

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localisation of places where Prevent is working and it isn't. You know

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what it is like to have been extremist. Is it that easily

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stopped? I think the issue now with Prevent and these types of

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programmes is they were very much focussed in the past to dealing with

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a kind of civilisational conflict, the idea that the west was at war in

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Islam, so Prevent was trying to suck out some of the heat and tension

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people felt around those issues. That narrative is completely

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changed, this is where I would disagree with the Sheikh. People

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talking about the conflict in Syria and the conflict in Iraq are not

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being motivated by the same narratives of the past, they are

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being motivated now by a sectarian conflict, where they believe they

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have the opportunity to go in and affect change on the ground and

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establish a Khalafit. Are there British fighters in Iraq? Not that

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we know. I was speaking to a British member of ISIS, he says there are no

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Brits as yet that have crossed over. This is their group, this is their

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organisation, they are waiting for their Marching orders. -- marching

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orders. Do you believe it has to come from within the mosques or the

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Muslim communities or is it work for the police or the legislation? In

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the past we have seen preachers who have operated, who have radicalised

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people and sort of inspired them to do things. What is slightly

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different now about the Syrian conflict is the use of social media.

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That is the single most important recruitment driver at the moment. In

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the past what you would have is you would get an Al-Qaeda video that

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would be union low-directional, and tell people to do things. Now you

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have hundreds of fighters on the ground giving a live feed on what is

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happening and they engage in conversation. We see young people

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reaching out to them saying you are in Syria, just like me, how can I be

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part of this. It is the individual people who have become empowered to

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become recruiters in their own right. We have all seen the viral

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videos preaching hate, I guess the question is where are the viral

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videos that don't preach hate. Are the voices loud enough saying this

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is a dumb thing to do? Absolutely, we can't dismiss the fertile ground

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that is present in the decade or two in which these young people have

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grown up, which has allowed them to sow the seeds of that anger and

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hatred. What we need to say is The Muslim Council of Britain is very,

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very clear with the position of Islam and as British Muslims that

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this is wrong. To go and involve ourselves in conflict abroad doesn't

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serve anybody any good. The way you can help the people of Iraq, to help

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the people of Syria is to remain in this country. Do you think that

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voice is being heard? No I don't. We do hear it from The Muslim Council

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of Britain? I don't, I think the counter narrative is weak, if there

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is a weakness in the Prevent Policy, it is that it does not build a

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sufficient counter narrative. There is a weakness which I would urge

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very respectfully upon the Sheikh is that the Muslim communities are

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dominated by rather older men and there are plenty of young leaders

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out there, young men and women, brilliant in the professions and

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business, who would be like to be given the leadership of that

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community and would be able to present a more convincing counter

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narrative than we are receiving at the moment. At the end of the day,

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what we are doing is not only trying to prevent people taking part in

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heretical, violent extremism, religiously heretical violent

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extremism, but we are trying to do our duty of protecting it our own

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country and citizens from violence. But the state cannot tell young

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Muslim men how to interpret their own religion, it has to come from

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the newer members and the invigorated members, presumably you

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agree with that? The state has no business in the interpretation and

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practice of religion, where I would support the suggestion about the

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counter narrative is let's strengthen it. Let's work

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collectively together. If we put this problem at the doors of Imams

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and mosques and say that is your problem and you deal with it, we

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won't see any success. Let's see in Coventry we have seen it. Let us

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work together, collectively, Government agencies, Muslim

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communities, Imams and wider society. These boys are not Muslim

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boys, they are British boys, these are our boys who have gone away. It

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feels like we have been this sort of narrative chat for ten years, a

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decade almost, and yet it doesn't, it hasn't stopped the next round of

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fighters going to ISIS? No it wasn't. What we're seeing is the

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debate has morphed unfortunately. The discourse has shied into the

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intra-Muslim. The strength of feeling hasn't changed? It has

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morphed into a new stage. Before the state was talking about what it was

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doing, and telling Muslims its policies weren't weighted against

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them for example. Now you have this very dynamic internal situation in

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Syria and Iraq that we don't really have a stake in, the Government has

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to find smarter ways. One thing is could do is highlight the fact of

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all the British deaths in Syria, only one came from a fighter

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fighting against the regime, all the rest game from the infighting. They

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are going through to fight in gangs against one another, they are not

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fighting the regime. . Thank you for coming in.

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This was the day the three jeers journalists imprisoned in the Cairo

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jail for six months expected to walk free. Instead they were met with

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seven-year prison sentences, one longer, a stark reminder of the

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incomprehensible Egyptian legal system and its attempts to censor

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press freedom. They were charged with attempting to oust the Muslim

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Brotherhood. Jeers has called the sentences outrageously, Al-Jazeera

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has called the sentences outrageous. They expected to be freed through

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lack of evidence. When the sentences were read out the court erupted.

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Peter Greste punched the bars in frustration, the families received

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the news dumb founded in their homes. Peter Greste and five other

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defendants present, my God, my God, sorry. That's crazy. The charges

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against them are helping a terrorist group in spreading false news,

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spurious charges, their news organisation claimed, politically

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and economically motivated. The British PM and the US Secretary of

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State have been quick to condemn the verdicts and their sentences.

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It is a chilling and draconian sentence. You know it is deeply

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disturbing to see in the midst of Egypt's transition. It simply cannot

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stand if Egypt is going to be able to move forward in the way that

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Egypt needs to move forward. What is still unclear is how quickly an

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appeal process can begin and whether the international voices of

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condemnation are prepared to add actions to their words. A little

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while ago I spoke to Peter Greste's brother, Michael, who was in court

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today. What did you go through when you

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heard that verdict being handed down? I was just stunned, to begin

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with. I couldn't believe what I just heard, I still have difficulty in

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comprehending it all. It is just a totally baffling and utterly

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disappointing and deflating decision. And you had to make the

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phone call to your parents back home. Yeah, there was a very tough

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call to make. Obviously my parents are extremely distressed and upset

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by the decision as well. But we will have to pick ourselves up and

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continue to fight. What do you think Peter's response will be to this

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now? Look it is very hard to say, quite often we go into the prison

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after a court appearance and what seems like a bit of a setback and

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think that we have to go and pick him up, but only to find that he's

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the one who is ending up picking us up. He's extremely strong in

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character and very resolved. Can you describe the conditions he's in at

:19:26.:19:30.

the moment, how is he living? They are quite depressing, he shares a

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cell with his two other colleagues. The cell is three by four metres in

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area. There is a very small opening in the door to their cell and then

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there's another very small window which is very high up on the wall.

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They don't receive any direct sunlight at this time of year. And

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they are locked away in that cell for 23 hours of the day. That's six

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days a week, and on Friday they are locked away for the whole day. So

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they are permitted reading material and newspapers but any other form of

:20:04.:20:07.

entertainment is refused. I tried to take a deck of cards in with me on a

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visit and that was just handed straight back to me and refused. The

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boys tried to fashion a rudimentry homemade sort of back gammon board

:20:21.:20:24.

but that was taken off them. Extremely hard and oppressive

:20:25.:20:29.

conditions. Do you think that US money is able to open doors now. We

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know some $700 million have come in through security and military

:20:36.:20:38.

assistance, is this the route that you think Egypt will take to release

:20:39.:20:44.

them? It is very difficult to identify, but obviously you know if

:20:45.:20:51.

they have any form of diplomatic pressure and encouragement to you

:20:52.:21:00.

know produce a just and fair result is to be commended and encouraged.

:21:01.:21:06.

We don't have any control over those decisions, but certainly diplomacy

:21:07.:21:11.

is another avenue that we would strongly you know appreciate and

:21:12.:21:17.

condone. Do you feel that the international community has been as

:21:18.:21:23.

supportive as they can over this? It is difficult to assess, but I

:21:24.:21:26.

certainly think after today's decision there has been a very

:21:27.:21:37.

strong and huge backlash from the international community and that is

:21:38.:21:41.

encouraging signs. What is your final message to the Egyptian

:21:42.:21:43.

Government tonight? I would like them to think about and have a look

:21:44.:21:47.

at the decision that has been made and if they are truly on the path to

:21:48.:21:52.

democracy then they will review the decision and overturn it. And you

:21:53.:21:57.

know free these journalist who is are completely innocent and have no

:21:58.:22:04.

guilt whatsoever towards the charges that they faced. Thank you very

:22:05.:22:11.

much, thank you. I'm joined now from Doha by the British journalist from

:22:12.:22:26.

all mal areas year a, Al-Jazeera. I wonder if this has made you think

:22:27.:22:30.

twice about reporting as a journalist? Not at all. I have been

:22:31.:22:36.

a reporter for 25 years, 12 of those with Channel 4 News in the UK. And

:22:37.:22:41.

you know it is kind of what I always wanted to do for a living and I

:22:42.:22:44.

probably will die still doing this job. This is a horrendous setback

:22:45.:22:51.

for all of us involved in this. For all of Al Jazeera now, who are

:22:52.:22:59.

looking to the guys in prison and wondering how they can pick

:23:00.:23:02.

themselves up and stay positive and keep fighting this decision by the

:23:03.:23:09.

Egyptian and to get them out. And we are not going to stop being

:23:10.:23:13.

journalists, we may not be able to report from Cairo, but we will

:23:14.:23:16.

certainly try to report what is going on in Egypt still. One of the

:23:17.:23:19.

most insidious responses to something like this is often

:23:20.:23:29.

self-censorship, I wonder inside Al Jazeera, there has been a change or

:23:30.:23:33.

shift, is there in the way you are reporting news or willing to report

:23:34.:23:39.

news? Not at all. I mean most of my colleagues here are English, a lot

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of them I would say are former BBC journalists, former ITN, former ABC,

:23:45.:23:51.

NBC journalists. We all come from different backgrounds from much of

:23:52.:23:55.

the western media. And we all, we come toal jazz AlJazeera with

:23:56.:24:07.

different attitude, we won't censor ourselves, we work in countries all

:24:08.:24:11.

over the world and have different bureaus all over the world. A lot of

:24:12.:24:15.

the time we are facing different environments. I covered the whole

:24:16.:24:20.

Libyan revolution, and had been in and out of Syria in a lot of years

:24:21.:24:27.

in different conflict zones we don't self-censorship our selves in that

:24:28.:24:31.

respect and never will. Michael hinted today the intnational

:24:32.:24:36.

community had rallied but possibly not enough beforehand. I wonder if

:24:37.:24:40.

you felt that there wasn't enough strength of feeling before today

:24:41.:24:47.

happened for your colleagues? No, I wouldn't say that, I have been all

:24:48.:24:51.

over, trying to keep this campaign going, I have been to DC to talk to

:24:52.:24:55.

the state department, I have been in the UK Foreign Office, we have been

:24:56.:24:59.

talking to all the different media channels across the world. They have

:25:00.:25:02.

done everything they can think of to try to put pressure on the Egyptian

:25:03.:25:07.

Government. The one thing possibly I would say is we all started to

:25:08.:25:11.

believe the best was going to happen today. From when the Al Jazeera

:25:12.:25:19.

Arabic journalist was released last week after being on hunger strike,

:25:20.:25:25.

we thought maybe Egypt's tide had turned, he hadn't charges against

:25:26.:25:28.

him and the authorities released him. Maybe they were recognising the

:25:29.:25:32.

guys that we had in prison here would also be released because all

:25:33.:25:39.

they were doing is their jobs as. We know there is six days to appeal,

:25:40.:25:43.

many thanks for that. She had a ring side seat throughout

:25:44.:25:48.

the presidential lifetime of one of the world's greatest statesmen ever

:25:49.:25:58.

Zelda L e Grange became his most trusted confidant, a self-confessed

:25:59.:26:01.

racist who voted in favour of apartheid. She described Mandela's

:26:02.:26:09.

views on schtum had a, Thatcher and Jeremy Clarkson, I asked her how her

:26:10.:26:15.

views had changed. I was a racist and happily lived apartheid and

:26:16.:26:19.

happily did so up to the age of 23. Because it was completely acceptable

:26:20.:26:24.

in my environment to live apartheid. Was there ever a voice in your head

:26:25.:26:28.

at that time questioning what you had been brought up to believe? Up

:26:29.:26:32.

to the age of 23 nothing, not one single question. I voted against the

:26:33.:26:38.

abolishment of apartheid in our last referendum in South Africa, that's

:26:39.:26:46.

how strongly I felt to protect the white supremacy in South Africa.

:26:47.:26:51.

Fast forward and you were working in the administrative department of the

:26:52.:26:55.

President's office. You met him and you had an urge to apologise? Yes,

:26:56.:27:01.

it is the strangest feeling and set of emotions that you can experience,

:27:02.:27:07.

suddenly the man I feared my entire life, that I thought was my enemy

:27:08.:27:16.

extends a hand to me, and speaks to me in my home language. I have to

:27:17.:27:20.

ask him to repeat himself because I was so shocked I didn't realise he

:27:21.:27:24.

was speaking to me in Afrikaans, my own language. Immediately you go

:27:25.:27:28.

into shock. Then I could see he was visibly old, I could see the

:27:29.:27:32.

kindness in his eyes and the sincerity of his smile. I was just

:27:33.:27:36.

overcome by emotion, I was crying, I was really full on sobbing. You feel

:27:37.:27:43.

sonsable responsible and I wanted to apologise immediately. Why didn't

:27:44.:27:47.

you? First of all he didn't give me a chance, he was asking too many

:27:48.:27:50.

questions. Secondly he could see that I was crying, so I think that

:27:51.:27:55.

may have been an indication to him that I felt sorry, you know. I felt

:27:56.:28:00.

I had remorse. Do you think there was a guilt element as well, do you

:28:01.:28:06.

think that was why? From my side or his side, from my side. I think at

:28:07.:28:11.

first definitely but after a while it was really I poured my heart and

:28:12.:28:16.

soul into supporting this man. Not because I felt guilty but really

:28:17.:28:19.

because I started adoring him, because he was really interested in

:28:20.:28:23.

me, he gave me the opportunity of a lifetime. So you have to reciprocate

:28:24.:28:28.

and I did so with loyalty. It sounds like you were a bit in love with

:28:29.:28:33.

him? As a grandfather figure, almost, maybe, yes. I was never

:28:34.:28:39.

blind to his mistakes. We had difficult times. You know having

:28:40.:28:43.

different opinions about things. He knew I was very niave, I was stupid

:28:44.:28:47.

and young, and not schooled really for that job. But he kind of took me

:28:48.:28:53.

and moulded me. You were important to him, as an Afrikaner. It was

:28:54.:29:05.

important to show the world he was representative of all minority

:29:06.:29:08.

groups even those who represented the apartheid Government. He didn't

:29:09.:29:14.

only allay fears with the Afrikaneres and the people who

:29:15.:29:19.

represented those people but the rest of the world. Once in office

:29:20.:29:23.

the world stateman there was a steady stream of celebrities who

:29:24.:29:27.

would come paying homage, whatever, what did you make of the way people

:29:28.:29:35.

treated him, and the questions they asked. You were a fly-on-the-wall?

:29:36.:29:39.

He had a special way of attracting a particular kind of person. And he

:29:40.:29:43.

became friends with certain people over the years, from the

:29:44.:29:47.

celebrities, and the heads of state. Because of certain qualities in

:29:48.:29:54.

those mostly respect. You also relate to people and you judge

:29:55.:30:01.

people based on how they treat him. If it was respectful I liked people

:30:02.:30:05.

who were respectful towards him. And if it wasn't. You cite the Jeremy

:30:06.:30:12.

Clarkson moment? I think maybe that was just a clash of personalities

:30:13.:30:16.

maybe. And Jeremy not understanding what to expect of a person of over

:30:17.:30:21.

90 years old. Talk us through what happened, I have only heard a very

:30:22.:30:26.

sketchy explanation for what happened, but you can tell? First of

:30:27.:30:31.

all when Jeremy walked in he said oh Mr Mandela have you ever had a lap

:30:32.:30:35.

dance. Now a person of that age doesn't really know what a lap dance

:30:36.:30:40.

is, I don't know if people over 90 know what lap dance is, but I didn't

:30:41.:30:46.

expect him to know and he appeared confused Mr Mandela and he looked at

:30:47.:30:50.

me expecting me to rescue him in a way and I felt sorry for him of

:30:51.:30:54.

course. I said to him no you don't have to answer that. What was Mr

:30:55.:31:00.

Mandela's sense of where South Africa was heading after him z he

:31:01.:31:06.

talk to you about the rule of Mbeki or stem ma? -- Zuma. He withdrew

:31:07.:31:14.

from politics, and he wasn't as involved as he wanted to be. He

:31:15.:31:18.

wanted to focus more on his family in his free time. He wasn't

:31:19.:31:22.

interested in politics any longer. Not interested or disappointed? I

:31:23.:31:27.

think he felt he did his duty and he couldn't do anything else. The one

:31:28.:31:31.

thing he couldn't stand was dishonesty, and South Africa has a

:31:32.:31:38.

problem right now with corruption. If Mr Mandela was in power and there

:31:39.:31:42.

was corruption, he would deal with it immediately. The implication that

:31:43.:31:48.

those that came after him didn't live up to that? They need to go

:31:49.:31:53.

back to what people sacrificed their lives for. This is my opinion, this

:31:54.:32:00.

is what Nelson Mandela, these people they sacrificed their lives for the

:32:01.:32:03.

freedom of South Africans. We need to go back to those ideals. Thank

:32:04.:32:11.

you. The F-word in Polish is something a few more of us may be

:32:12.:32:15.

familiar with tonight. It was used extensively by their Foreign

:32:16.:32:20.

Minister to describe David Cameron's incompetence in Europe. He didn't,

:32:21.:32:24.

needless to say realise his conversation with his former Finance

:32:25.:32:28.

Minister was being recorded, but the content, now released to a Polish

:32:29.:32:32.

magazine about previous negotiations some months back are still pretty

:32:33.:32:38.

devastating. David Cameron has this evening tweeted of a full and frank

:32:39.:32:43.

conversation on the commission President. But there is a growing

:32:44.:32:46.

sense in many quarters that the Polish minister could well be on the

:32:47.:32:50.

money. I warn you if you speak Polish the following report contains

:32:51.:33:00.

the original audio. Oxford man, Bullingdon Club member, a

:33:01.:33:04.

distinguished minister who, until at least recently has been favourite to

:33:05.:33:09.

succeed Baroness Ashton as Europe's Foreign Policy Chief. But in truth,

:33:10.:33:13.

he's never been a fan of David Cameron's Europe policy. It is

:33:14.:33:19.

difficult to lead a club which you are considering whether to stay in

:33:20.:33:26.

or leave. So, yes, in that since you have weakened your hand. Now comes

:33:27.:33:30.

something much harder to hear for the British Government. Bugged

:33:31.:33:36.

conversations between Mr Sikorski and former Finance Minister, leaked

:33:37.:33:42.

to a Polish news magazine, who have shared some of the material with

:33:43.:33:46.

Newsnight. The polls give Mr Cameron both verbals -- the Poles give Mr

:33:47.:33:52.

Cameron both verbal barrels. TRANSLATION: He thinks he can go,

:33:53.:33:56.

renegotiate and come back, no Polish Government can agree with that, only

:33:57.:34:04.

in exchange for a mountain of gold. TRANSLATION: It is thought through

:34:05.:34:09.

move his incompetence in European affairs, remember he locked up the

:34:10.:34:12.

fiscal part, he locked it up, simple as that, because he's not

:34:13.:34:15.

interested, because he doesn't get it because he believes in this

:34:16.:34:18.

stupid prop beganed DACHLT he stupidly tries to manipulate the

:34:19.:34:25.

system. Tonight he condemned the leak as a crime. Demned

:34:26.:34:36.

TRANSLATION: The Government was attacked by an organised criminal

:34:37.:34:42.

group, we hope to gain the identity of the group members and first of

:34:43.:34:45.

all their leaders. And that they will be identified and obviously

:34:46.:34:49.

punished. But for the Prime Minister who played host today to outgoing

:34:50.:34:54.

President of the European Council, the leaks could be highly

:34:55.:34:57.

embarrassing showing that other Europeans think he is attempting to

:34:58.:35:03.

change Europe before a referendum will fail. But for the Prime

:35:04.:35:07.

Minister, who played host today to the outgoing President of the

:35:08.:35:10.

European Council, the leaks could be highly embarrassing. Showing that

:35:11.:35:14.

other Europeans think his attempts to change Europe before holding a

:35:15.:35:26.

referendum will fail. TRANSLATION: I think paradoxically you know what

:35:27.:35:28.

the consequences will be for us. TRANSLATION: Yes. TRANSLATION: Not

:35:29.:35:32.

particularly good for us, generally bad for us, because we want Great

:35:33.:35:38.

Britain to stay in. I think that it will be like this, he will lose this

:35:39.:35:44.

election, Great Britain leaves. The leak comes at a perilous moment for

:35:45.:35:49.

the Prime Minister, whose unsuccessful attempt to block the

:35:50.:35:53.

candidacy of Jean-Claude Juncker as the next President of the European

:35:54.:35:55.

Commission is causing tensions with Germany. The Polish tape scandal

:35:56.:35:59.

comes at a particularly difficult time for Mr Cameron's Europe policy.

:36:00.:36:06.

Germany is hardening its support for Mr Juncker. We have been told that

:36:07.:36:10.

the Germans would regard any attempt by Britain to block his appointment

:36:11.:36:16.

as a betrayal of rules agreed by all European countries seven years ago

:36:17.:36:22.

with the Lisbon Treaty. The risks for Mr Cameron now are many, for

:36:23.:36:27.

having invested so much prestige in stopping Mr Juncker, if he fails it

:36:28.:36:32.

will empower the euro-sceptics. And those who share the private view of

:36:33.:36:38.

his abilities expressed by the Polish Foreign Minister.

:36:39.:36:43.

With me I have the chairman of Business for New Europe. And Peter

:36:44.:36:50.

Liley, touted as a possible choice for the UK commissioner. . When you

:36:51.:36:57.

have one of Cameron's mates talking like this, you kind of wonder who

:36:58.:37:04.

needs enemies? He seemed to be in a rather foul-mouthed and thoughtless

:37:05.:37:07.

mood, it brought discredit on him and absolutely no discredit to the

:37:08.:37:12.

Prime Minister. Except what he was saying was "incompetence". He used

:37:13.:37:18.

lots of foul words and some other insults. But they discredit him by

:37:19.:37:23.

the very use. What he did say more rationally when he got on to that is

:37:24.:37:27.

it was not in Poland's interest that Britain should leave Europe. I take

:37:28.:37:30.

it from that they will be prepared to make concessions to work hard, to

:37:31.:37:35.

keep us in, and I hope they do. Leave the obscenities aside and he

:37:36.:37:42.

was talking about Cameron losing the next election, being driven by

:37:43.:37:48.

stupid propaganda. He used the word "election", everything clearly

:37:49.:37:50.

referring to the referendum. He talked about the problems with the

:37:51.:37:54.

fiscal pact. Here is somebody who clearly does not believe's on the

:37:55.:37:58.

right trajectory with what he's fighting for, whether or not he used

:37:59.:38:02.

swear words? He also said it would not be in Poland's interest that

:38:03.:38:07.

Britain leaves. I heard that. That I think means that we have a strong

:38:08.:38:09.

position. It is not in anyone's interest in Europe that we leave. If

:38:10.:38:14.

they want to keep us in, then they should reach accommodations. That is

:38:15.:38:17.

how Europe ought to work. It shouldn't be take it or leave it,

:38:18.:38:21.

let's ignore Britain's interest and everything. When all three parties

:38:22.:38:25.

in Britain take the same view of Mr Juncker, and the manner in which he

:38:26.:38:30.

is being foisted upon us, it is unwise, I would have thought, for

:38:31.:38:33.

our friends and colleagues in Europe to ignore are. Just because you are

:38:34.:38:37.

isolated doesn't mean you are wrong? No it doesn't, to be fair to the

:38:38.:38:42.

Prime Minister there is no question that Angela Merkel was on his side

:38:43.:38:45.

at the beginning of this. She faces a backlash from her own MPs in

:38:46.:38:49.

parliament who were absolutely adamant that Juncker should be, and

:38:50.:38:52.

she folded and went with them. Of course it is a salutary warning that

:38:53.:39:00.

we can't put all our eggs in the German basket, we have to build out

:39:01.:39:05.

and build consensus. He should have chosen different language or broken

:39:06.:39:09.

with her? You can't completely rely on one person, however even if it is

:39:10.:39:14.

the most powerful person in Europe to get what you want. You have to

:39:15.:39:17.

build allies right across. Which is precisely what I was trying to do. I

:39:18.:39:22.

think that the Polish President said that was right, Britain is couching

:39:23.:39:27.

its policies in terms of pan-European, not just in terms of

:39:28.:39:31.

concessions, if we do that we will be sorely disappointed. Shouldn't he

:39:32.:39:35.

have stuck his neck out, wasn't there a more diplomatic way of doing

:39:36.:39:39.

this than clearly holding a position he has now lost? You don't win

:39:40.:39:43.

anything. I had to negotiate for ten years with colleagues in Europe, we

:39:44.:39:48.

never won if we didn't put our view forcefully and courteously and

:39:49.:39:51.

winning as many allies across the world which is David Cameron is

:39:52.:39:56.

doing. Are you suggesting every time you are not certain you could win

:39:57.:40:00.

you should give in without a fight. You shouldn't give in, but you have

:40:01.:40:04.

to realise you have lost this one, there is no point in having a vote

:40:05.:40:07.

and finding you are just with Oban in Hungary, a pretty illiberal

:40:08.:40:11.

country as it is. You don't want to be with that regime. You want to

:40:12.:40:15.

fight for the reform agenda right now and try to get serious

:40:16.:40:18.

concessions in terms of reform, rather than fighting an old battle

:40:19.:40:21.

that has been lost. I guess the deal you will be looking at is one

:40:22.:40:25.

possibly that will save face for Cameron, a good commissioner

:40:26.:40:28.

position, do you know who is in the ring for that. Can I ask you whether

:40:29.:40:32.

you have put your name into the ring or whether you would accept the job?

:40:33.:40:37.

It is not up to me to put my name in the rin if I was offered it I would

:40:38.:40:41.

accept it. Have you talked to anyone about it? I have talk to to people

:40:42.:40:45.

but I haven't -- talked to people but I haven't been offered it and

:40:46.:40:48.

they haven't come and talked to me. From the top end of Government? No,

:40:49.:40:52.

so I probably won't be it. But it is a terribly important job, it is

:40:53.:40:56.

important that we have someone with the right qualifications, who is not

:40:57.:41:01.

going to go native as soon as they get the job and starting working for

:41:02.:41:08.

a federal Europe but for the sort of Europe that Britain wants. And

:41:09.:41:15.

someone who puts arguments cogently and forcefully within a democracy.

:41:16.:41:19.

Do you think the barricades are up against whoever takes on that role,

:41:20.:41:21.

do you think there is negotiation to be done. What can they win in that

:41:22.:41:29.

role? I talk to ambassadors to a country quite close to us, he said

:41:30.:41:35.

unfortunately we don't do consolation prizes in this game. It

:41:36.:41:38.

will be tough. What I would add to what Peter said, you need somebody

:41:39.:41:41.

with those qualities but who is actually willing to make allies and

:41:42.:41:44.

actually fight for the corner in terms of fighting for what's

:41:45.:41:47.

possible and not just fighting battles that look good back here,

:41:48.:41:51.

but actually are achievable in Europe. Thank you both very much.

:41:52.:42:04.

The second most highly paid athlete in the world has shown her rise on

:42:05.:42:08.

the tennis stage. She graced Centre Court earlier today, in her only

:42:09.:42:14.

television interslew she talked -- interview, she talked ahead of

:42:15.:42:19.

Wimbledon. The most successful tennis player in Asian history.

:42:20.:42:23.

She's the face of the Chinese game. Today she began her Wimbledon

:42:24.:42:33.

campaign. She is fresh from winning the Australian Open, the second

:42:34.:42:35.

Grand Slam of her career. The world number two may have passed you by,

:42:36.:42:39.

but she's huge in China. Thanks to the TV close-ups so is her husband.

:42:40.:42:45.

My husband is famous in China! She may like to repeat a joke but she's

:42:46.:42:50.

witty for a sports star. I think I have to tell the truth. My husband

:42:51.:42:56.

is more famous than me, no really, every time if I was working ing or

:42:57.:43:04.

walking with my friend, nobody sees me, if I was walking with him they

:43:05.:43:15.

are like this is Li Na's husband! Li Na is the second-highest female paid

:43:16.:43:21.

athlete in the world, thanks to a string of endorsements from

:43:22.:43:24.

companies who see her as their ticket to the increasingly lucrative

:43:25.:43:30.

Chinese market. Such is our power she's the only player with a Nike

:43:31.:43:34.

deal who can wear other sponsors on her clothes. She has helped

:43:35.:43:38.

transform the Chinese tennis scene too, when she started out hardly

:43:39.:43:41.

anybody played, now 15 million people do. The all England lawn

:43:42.:43:47.

tennis club is hoping to use this Wimbledon tournament to lure more of

:43:48.:43:50.

China's wealthy middle-class to a sport that is still not as popular

:43:51.:43:54.

as ping pong. How many people are playing in China? A lot. Only in

:43:55.:44:00.

Beijing, one city they have over 3,000 tennis courts. But always

:44:01.:44:04.

fully booked, if you want to play you have to book in before. Is it a

:44:05.:44:08.

massive transformation. Your parents I think when you started and the

:44:09.:44:12.

coach said she should play tennis, they hadn't even heard of it? They

:44:13.:44:18.

had never heard about tennis, what is tennis? Turns out tennis was the

:44:19.:44:23.

game that brought Li Na $23 million so far, but it cost her. In brutal

:44:24.:44:30.

state-run sports schools with constantly blistered palms because

:44:31.:44:38.

there was no child-sized racquets, and knees, aged 14 she was not told

:44:39.:44:44.

of her father's death for several days because she was playing a

:44:45.:44:49.

tournament. She was also injected with steroids. You were never

:44:50.:44:53.

praised you were always playing when you look back what do you see? If I

:44:54.:44:59.

look back I think bravo for young Li Na because you never gave up, you

:45:00.:45:04.

just continued to do that, so that is why make me famous right now. And

:45:05.:45:09.

yet it was a bad experience at the time? This is life, you cannot have

:45:10.:45:15.

the nice day like every day. The young Li Na was repeatedly called

:45:16.:45:21.

stupid and pig by one coach. When she coached me in ten years she

:45:22.:45:25.

never said I was good. She never praised you. So I was feeling a

:45:26.:45:32.

little bit hurt in my heart. That is why after I think last year or the

:45:33.:45:36.

year before I was coming back, talked to her again and I say hey,

:45:37.:45:45.

look you hurt me when I was young. Can I ask, there was a video doing

:45:46.:45:50.

the rounds from a 2001 national championship, did you see that where

:45:51.:45:54.

you got, it looked like you were being slapped by the person giving

:45:55.:45:59.

the medal? I think this is making a joke, it was not a slap. It wasn't a

:46:00.:46:06.

slap? No. That video of her winning only bronze went viral in China

:46:07.:46:11.

where she has 23 million followers on the Twitter equivalent. She's

:46:12.:46:15.

criticised at home for not appearing grateful enough to the Chinese

:46:16.:46:20.

state. She was cautious when I asked her was she free about writing

:46:21.:46:24.

anything on social media. Before I put anything on I have to think is

:46:25.:46:29.

this right or not. I worry if I send the wrong message, the people will

:46:30.:46:39.

wrongly use it. The right news is at 32 she's playing her best tennis in

:46:40.:46:42.

a career that has mirrored the changes in China. The tennis scene

:46:43.:46:46.

has liberalised economically like the country and she no longer has to

:46:47.:46:51.

give 65% of her earning to the state. If she does win Wimbledon she

:46:52.:46:56.

still has to hand over a tenth to the tennis federation back home.

:46:57.:47:04.

That's all we have time for. Good night from all of us here.

:47:05.:47:11.

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