24/06/2014 Newsnight


24/06/2014

A special edition of Newsnight on the phone hacking trial.


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the Prime Minister's former Lieutenants in jail. I was given

:00:20.:00:23.

assurances that he didn't know about phone hacking, that turns out not to

:00:24.:00:27.

be the case and I was always clear if that happened I would apologise

:00:28.:00:34.

and I do so unreservedly today. He may be happier that his close

:00:35.:00:38.

friend, Rebekah Brooks, is cleared. She said she didn't know what was

:00:39.:00:42.

going on. So how did she get to the top of News International? Rupert

:00:43.:00:49.

did say to me, and this would be an exact quote, he said "she social

:00:50.:00:56.

climbed her way up my family". On tonight's Newsnight we will hear

:00:57.:00:59.

from victim, politician and the journalist who first broke the

:01:00.:01:11.

story. Good evening, guess who said "a

:01:12.:01:15.

newspaper can create great controversy, light on injustices,

:01:16.:01:20.

just as it can hide things and be a great power for evil"? It was Ruperp

:01:21.:01:29.

Murdoch, the head of the -- Rupert Murdoch. The conviction of two men

:01:30.:01:33.

for the little known crime of listening to a voicemail, he claimed

:01:34.:01:38.

was down to one rogue reporter. A seven month criminal trial later and

:01:39.:01:42.

many arrests, tonight it is the Prime Minister who is saying sorry.

:01:43.:01:46.

The man he trusted enough to take into Number Ten was the former News

:01:47.:01:51.

of the World editor, Andy Coulson, who was today found guilty of

:01:52.:01:55.

conspiracy to hack phones by an Old Bailey jury. But his then boss,

:01:56.:02:00.

Rebekah Brooks, was cleared. We have been following this case all the way

:02:01.:02:03.

through for us. An extraordinary day, what are we to make of it? It

:02:04.:02:08.

is a hugely dramatic day, of course, it is a ?30 million police inquiry

:02:09.:02:15.

lasting years. It has had nearly an eight-month trial costing tens of

:02:16.:02:19.

billions more. Huge reputations at stake, it is the sharp end of one of

:02:20.:02:23.

the biggest media scandals Britain has ever seen. Only one, thus far,

:02:24.:02:29.

only one guilty finding, Andy Coulson. Quite sensationally in some

:02:30.:02:33.

respects because there was huge expectation around this, Rebekah

:02:34.:02:36.

Brooks and most of the others found not guilty on the counts they faced.

:02:37.:02:39.

There will be questions for the prosecuting authorities. But

:02:40.:02:42.

nevertheless, we have also been given a glimpse, you mentioned it in

:02:43.:02:47.

the introduction, of the sheer scale of what has gone on here. Royal

:02:48.:02:54.

phone hacks, 200+, David Blunkett personally, 300+, this was an

:02:55.:02:58.

industrial scale operation. As much as we now know how big the scale

:02:59.:03:02.

was, there is potentially more to come, where to next? In terms of the

:03:03.:03:06.

company, well there are more trials to come, they start in the autumn

:03:07.:03:15.

and run into 2015. Les Hinton has been interviewed under caution, the

:03:16.:03:18.

Guardian are reporting that the police want to talk to are you you

:03:19.:03:30.

Rupert Murdock personally, the questions go back to David Cameron,

:03:31.:03:34.

how he hired Andy Coulson and how he took him into Number Ten, against

:03:35.:03:37.

advice at every stage who said he had to be really, really careful

:03:38.:03:42.

about this. It was an awkward promise for David Cameron to keep,

:03:43.:03:47.

but keep it he did. Apologising this afternoon for firing Andy Coulson in

:03:48.:03:50.

the first place. In his words, "giving him a second chance". He's

:03:51.:03:54.

not the first politician who called on the arch skills of Fleet Street

:03:55.:03:58.

editors to help them get elected, but neither he nor Coulson can ever

:03:59.:04:03.

have thought in their worst nightmare that it would turn out

:04:04.:04:08.

like this. ??FORCEDWHI

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From court into a media frenzy, and then what? Prison? We await the

:04:12.:04:18.

judge's sentence. But the verdict, guilty, of conspiring to hack

:04:19.:04:22.

phones. In one e-mail Andy Coulson instructed one of his News of the

:04:23.:04:28.

World reporters "do his own". But it was Coulson who was done for. As

:04:29.:04:32.

David Cameron finished his speech launching the Conservative's

:04:33.:04:36.

manifesto in 2010, his Director of Communications was in the

:04:37.:04:39.

background, always in the background, steering journalists and

:04:40.:04:42.

perhaps enjoying the thought that he and his boss were on their way to

:04:43.:04:46.

bigger and better jobs. But now, it is the man who appointed him who is

:04:47.:04:50.

having to answer difficult questions. I take full

:04:51.:04:54.

responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did so on the basis of

:04:55.:04:58.

undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and those turn

:04:59.:05:02.

out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned out to be

:05:03.:05:06.

wrong I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that today. I'm

:05:07.:05:11.

extremely sorry that I employed him, it was the wrong decision, and I'm

:05:12.:05:15.

very clear about that. How much damage do you think you did the

:05:16.:05:18.

Prime Minister Mr Coulson? The Labour leader is equally clear this

:05:19.:05:21.

is not the end of the questions for the Prime Minister. We now know that

:05:22.:05:26.

he brought a criminal into the heart of Downing Street. David Cameron was

:05:27.:05:32.

warned about Andy Coulson, the evidence mounted up against Andy

:05:33.:05:36.

Coulson. David Cameron must have had his suspicions about Andy Coulson,

:05:37.:05:41.

and yet he refused to act. Now I believe this isn't just a serious

:05:42.:05:46.

error of judgment, this taints David Cameron's Government. We now know

:05:47.:05:50.

that he put his relationship with Rupert Murdock ahead of doing the

:05:51.:05:56.

right thing when it came to doing the right thing with Andy Coulson.

:05:57.:06:01.

And David Cameron received multiple warnings from Nick Clegg and Paddy

:06:02.:06:05.

Ashdown, by the at the ender of the Guardian and the then enity Prime

:06:06.:06:10.

Minister, John Prescott. Also by senior Conservative backbenchers,

:06:11.:06:15.

all telling the Prime Minister do not have anything to do with this

:06:16.:06:19.

man. He would have seen with people advising him against Coulson the

:06:20.:06:23.

voice of snobbery, and he wanted to have that connection. He basically,

:06:24.:06:27.

it is not that he wanted the Sun's vote, but he wanted the vote of Sun

:06:28.:06:34.

readers and even people who didn't read it, he thought would bring

:06:35.:06:40.

them. Even friends of David Cameron are puzzled how determined he was to

:06:41.:06:44.

bring a man with such a checkered past with him beyond the gates into

:06:45.:06:47.

the heart of his administration. When he got there, why wasn't Andy

:06:48.:06:52.

Coulson subjected to the same level of official vetting as previous and

:06:53.:06:56.

subsequent directors of communication. Was it, as some

:06:57.:06:59.

believe, that they didn't want to know the truth? I swear by Almighty

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God that the evidence I shall give... The Prime Minister was asked

:07:06.:07:09.

about the failure to vet Coulson to the highest level during the

:07:10.:07:13.

evidence he gave to the Leveson Inquiry. The issue of who was vetted

:07:14.:07:17.

to what level is for the Civil Service not the Prime Minister. The

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decision was taken by the Permanent Secretary at Number Ten, Jeremy

:07:21.:07:24.

Heywood, not by me. Having looked at all of this I'm convinced this is a

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complete red herring. The decision was made properly by the Civil

:07:29.:07:34.

Service, it wasn't abnormal. Mr Cameron will no doubt face more

:07:35.:07:37.

scrutiny about his decision to hire and keep Andy Coulson tomorrow at

:07:38.:07:44.

Prime Minister's Questions. With us now are Harriet Harmen, deputy

:07:45.:07:52.

leader of the Labour Party, and John Wittingdale. David Cameron said he

:07:53.:07:56.

would apologise if this is what happened, he has done that, he has

:07:57.:07:59.

been very clear about that, he didn't stint in his apology,

:08:00.:08:02.

shouldn't this be the end of the story for him? No, I don't think so.

:08:03.:08:07.

I don't think that makes it OK at all. I mean in the first place why

:08:08.:08:12.

did he place so little concern on what had happened to those victims,

:08:13.:08:18.

the Dowlers, the McCanns, who had been victims of crime and then had

:08:19.:08:22.

their lives turned more upside down and their privacy invaded and their

:08:23.:08:26.

pain and suffering made worse by abuse of the press. That already was

:08:27.:08:29.

known about and that was accepted. And he swept that aside because he

:08:30.:08:34.

wanted to have Andy Coulson by his side in Number Ten and the second

:08:35.:08:38.

thing I think that is really not OK to accept is the idea that David

:08:39.:08:44.

Cameron was some how niave, trusting, he wanted to give him a

:08:45.:08:48.

second chance like some kind of probation officer. That does not

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wash. He was not somebody who admit what had he had done and was turning

:08:54.:08:57.

over a new leaf, he was somebody who had not accepted what he had done.

:08:58.:09:00.

And the reason why Cameron gave him this second chance and ignored the

:09:01.:09:05.

concerns of the victims is because he wanted to have Andy Coulson by

:09:06.:09:12.

his side and a good link in to Murdoch, that is how it looks to me.

:09:13.:09:15.

In the same way many Labour politicians have too, we will come

:09:16.:09:18.

to that in a minute? We are talking about somebody who is a criminal. It

:09:19.:09:22.

is easy to criticise David Cameron with hindsight, when the fullness of

:09:23.:09:26.

the revelations came out, he ordered the Leveson Inquiry, and he now has

:09:27.:09:31.

backed the royal charter, the cross-party attempt to clean up the

:09:32.:09:34.

press. What do you actually want him to do now? Well, it wasn't that this

:09:35.:09:40.

only came out afterwards. He was warned before he took Andy Coulson

:09:41.:09:44.

into Downing Street and even after he was in Downing Street and

:09:45.:09:48.

evidence and the allegations mounted, like the whole front page

:09:49.:09:52.

of the New York Times. He turned his face against it. What do you want

:09:53.:09:56.

him to do now, order an inquiry into the vetting of Andy Coulson? It is

:09:57.:10:00.

strange that there wasn't proper vetting of him. What he should

:10:01.:10:04.

acknowledge is actually he did it to curry favour with the Murdoch press,

:10:05.:10:09.

he said I did it, I was too trusting and I will apologise. What he wasn't

:10:10.:10:17.

admit is he was prepared to have the office of Prime Minister and Downing

:10:18.:10:23.

Street sullied because he wanted to curry favour with the Murdoch press.

:10:24.:10:27.

What came out in the Leveson Inquiry was the extraordinary close knit

:10:28.:10:36.

relationship of new Labour with the Murdoches, we heard Gordon Brown's

:10:37.:10:46.

wife a pyjama party with Rupert Murdoch's wife. You can't have it

:10:47.:10:50.

both ways? There is two separate things, was this a different order

:10:51.:10:54.

of things? I think it was, this was criminal activity. This wasn't just

:10:55.:10:58.

cosying up at parties, this was inviting into the heart of Downing

:10:59.:11:01.

Street somebody who had been engaged in criminal activity which had

:11:02.:11:05.

caused people to suffer. Secondly, it is the case and this has been

:11:06.:11:08.

acknowledged and we have been quite clear on this, is there is a problem

:11:09.:11:13.

if there is a monopoly ownership of the press and the press becomes too

:11:14.:11:16.

powerful and more powerful than those who are elected. David Cameron

:11:17.:11:21.

did not know of cour because that conviction only happened today, he

:11:22.:11:23.

didn't know about that at the time. What he did know is that actually

:11:24.:11:31.

whilst Andy Coulson had been editor, criminal activity was going on. This

:11:32.:11:37.

trial has not even concluded. They were already convicted while he was

:11:38.:11:41.

editor. If your issue with this is how it exposed the closeness of the

:11:42.:11:46.

links, and the links between News International and the Conservatives

:11:47.:11:50.

were so inappropriate, why is your current leader allowing himself to

:11:51.:11:54.

be photographed holding up a copy of the Sun if the links are so

:11:55.:11:58.

terrible? What we are talking about is one newspaper owner having too

:11:59.:12:03.

much power. Nobody is boycotting the Sun. I disapprove of page 3, but the

:12:04.:12:10.

Sun readers are people we need to be communicating with, that is

:12:11.:12:13.

completely different than actually hiring someone who is presiding over

:12:14.:12:19.

criminal activity. Harriet Harmen is right, it was a terrible error of

:12:20.:12:25.

judgment for David Cameron to hire Andy Coulson? David Cameron has said

:12:26.:12:29.

it was a bad decision, but at the time you have to remember all we

:12:30.:12:32.

knew was one reporter had been convicted of phone hacking of the

:12:33.:12:38.

aides to the Royal Family. We didn't know anything about the Dowler, we

:12:39.:12:41.

didn't know about the huge numbers of victims which were subsequently

:12:42.:12:46.

revealed by the Mulcaire papers. We knew that a reporter had been

:12:47.:12:50.

convicted and Andy Coulson not only told David Cameron, he then came

:12:51.:12:53.

before my Select Committee after that and said categorically he had

:12:54.:12:57.

no knowledge and involvement in phone hacking. By the time he went

:12:58.:13:06.

into Number Ten and Downing Street that is something of a different

:13:07.:13:10.

order. But there were people including you... He was still saying

:13:11.:13:13.

he had no knowledge and involvement. There were people in the party

:13:14.:13:16.

warning David Cameron, were you one of them who warned him to go careful

:13:17.:13:22.

carefully? The only thing I said is here is somebody who decided to

:13:23.:13:26.

resign from the newspaper because somebody in his employment had been

:13:27.:13:31.

convicted of a criminal offence. I think that was the correct decision,

:13:32.:13:34.

my committee concluded even though we couldn't demonstrate any evidence

:13:35.:13:37.

to prove he had known, nevertheless he was right to resign. The judgment

:13:38.:13:41.

about whether or not to take him on was one which David Cameron made and

:13:42.:13:45.

he said in his own words that he thought he deserved a second chance.

:13:46.:13:50.

I didn't directly speak to him, I personally felt I wasn't sure

:13:51.:13:53.

whether the message was the right one. But I fully understand that

:13:54.:13:56.

whether the message was the right felt he would give him a second

:13:57.:13:58.

whether the message was the right difficult to condemn someone.

:13:59.:14:04.

whether the message was the right signals to get that message back,

:14:05.:14:04.

whether the message was the right and there were people

:14:05.:14:07.

whether the message was the right Conservative Party warning him? I

:14:08.:14:10.

had been told by Andy Coulson, in a full, formal hearing of the Select

:14:11.:14:15.

Committee that he had no knowledge or involvement. Therefore of course

:14:16.:14:18.

we assumed that he must be telling the truth. This whole thing about

:14:19.:14:24.

second chances, either this is the earliest point either Andy Coulson

:14:25.:14:27.

did not know what was going on in his newspaper at the very best he

:14:28.:14:32.

had no idea, so why give him a second chance and make him Director

:14:33.:14:36.

of Communications in Number Ten. It doesn't wash. We must be careful

:14:37.:14:39.

here because the proceedings are not complete. Before we close, Harriet

:14:40.:14:43.

Harman, all the parties have said at the time of Leveson that this was a

:14:44.:14:48.

moment, once and for all to sort out press standards. Do you believe what

:14:49.:14:53.

the press has come up with meets the requirements of Lord Leveson? One of

:14:54.:14:56.

the things about the framework that was agreement by all parties in the

:14:57.:15:00.

House of Commons and House of Lords is we shouldn't be judging

:15:01.:15:03.

House of Commons and House of Lords regulator, we should have an

:15:04.:15:06.

independent recognising panel set up and they will judge whether the

:15:07.:15:10.

regular Tatar the press come -- regulator the press come forward is

:15:11.:15:15.

part of the Leveson principles. The regulator has not yet been appointed

:15:16.:15:19.

and they will look at any regulator put forward for recognition and say

:15:20.:15:22.

is it independent, does it give people a fair deal. After all of

:15:23.:15:27.

this, still a work in progress? Yes and we cannot have business as

:15:28.:15:30.

usual. Thank you very much for coming in tonight. The outcome

:15:31.:15:35.

couldn't be more different for Coulson's former boss, colleague and

:15:36.:15:38.

lover, Rebekah Brooks. When she heard the jury had cleared her and

:15:39.:15:42.

her husband Charley Brooks she was overwhelmed and had to be helped

:15:43.:15:45.

from the court by the matron at the Old Bailey. She's free, but she can

:15:46.:15:50.

hardly return to the life she lived before as the former chief executive

:15:51.:15:57.

of News International, she was one of the most powerful people in the

:15:58.:16:02.

land. Rebekah Brooks is a dream client. So she spent 13 days in the

:16:03.:16:14.

witness box and she was brilliant. Rupert did say she social climbed

:16:15.:16:24.

her way up my family. She company these people much closer, she had

:16:25.:16:30.

them all on speed dial. Can Confident, wealthy, a powerful and

:16:31.:16:34.

influential networker at the highest level. Rebekah Brooks could be charm

:16:35.:16:38.

itself. A hugely impressive character, in control apparently of

:16:39.:16:43.

all she surveyed, and what a career, from office runner to chief

:16:44.:16:47.

executive in just 20 years. The first thing you notice about her is

:16:48.:16:54.

that fantastic shock of red hair. You know, it is almost as big as she

:16:55.:16:59.

is. She was desperate to learn. It was an admirable quality that she

:17:00.:17:04.

had. She was desperate to know what was going on and how it was

:17:05.:17:09.

achieved, how the package was brought up and ended up in the

:17:10.:17:17.

paper. In no time at all she was Charli, he's boss as deputy editor

:17:18.:17:22.

of the Sun, then on to News of the World, and then chief executive of

:17:23.:17:24.

the whole of News International. In the process she became close to

:17:25.:17:29.

first Elizabeth Murdoch and then to James, but especially close to

:17:30.:17:36.

Rupert. Rupert did say to me, and this would be an exact quote, he

:17:37.:17:44.

said, "she social climbed her way up my family". Now Rupert is funny

:17:45.:17:49.

because in conversation Rupert almost never says anything positive

:17:50.:17:54.

about anyone, and is prone to say incredibly negative things about

:17:55.:17:58.

people he actually is very close to. But I think that's a very precise

:17:59.:18:07.

description. Remember Rupert is astute about nothing so much as

:18:08.:18:11.

ambition itself. And he likes ambition. So much so that when the

:18:12.:18:18.

hacking scandal became a full on corporate crisis, Murdoch senior's

:18:19.:18:23.

first thoughts apparently were for his protege. When a reporter asked

:18:24.:18:29.

Rupert Murdoch was his priority, barely visible he gestures towards

:18:30.:18:34.

Rebekah Brooks and says "this one". For all their closeness and mutual

:18:35.:18:38.

affection, Murdoch and Brooks were in reality quite different. He saw

:18:39.:18:42.

himself as the anti-establishment outsider, she meanwhile had become

:18:43.:18:46.

the consumate new establishment insider, friend and even confidant

:18:47.:18:52.

of the most senior politicians in the land. She became very close to

:18:53.:18:57.

new Labour, thanks to her first husband, EastEnders star and top

:18:58.:19:05.

Labour luvvie, Ross Kemp. In no time at all she was a member of the

:19:06.:19:10.

family, fiercely protective as "our Tony", as she was heard to call him

:19:11.:19:16.

and sleepovers with Sarah Brown. And David Cameron was a close friend of

:19:17.:19:24.

her second husband, Charlie Brooks, all members of the Chipping Norton

:19:25.:19:29.

set. Brooks had become a power in the land. Then came phone hacking,

:19:30.:19:33.

three sets of criminal charges, an eight month trial and 13 days on the

:19:34.:19:38.

stand. Rebekah Brooks is a dream client. She spent I think it was 13

:19:39.:19:44.

days in the witness box, and she was brilliant. She knew the answers that

:19:45.:19:52.

she wanted to give. Her personal character came across as being

:19:53.:19:57.

submissive, kind, quite funny. And the prosecution were left in a

:19:58.:20:01.

rather unusual position really that quite apart from picking holes in

:20:02.:20:05.

what she had said, they launched a direct attack on her, saying to the

:20:06.:20:11.

jury, that was a performance. The prosecution case against Rebekah

:20:12.:20:14.

Brooks was that despite being on holiday in the week the News of the

:20:15.:20:18.

World ran a story based on the hacking of Milly Dowler's phone, she

:20:19.:20:22.

had been in close enough contact with the office to know what was

:20:23.:20:25.

going on. The jury were not convinced. Brooks's defence was not

:20:26.:20:31.

that phone hacking and the rest didn't happen, rather than she had

:20:32.:20:34.

known nothing about it. That although she had signed off hundreds

:20:35.:20:37.

of thousands of pounds worth of payments over the years to hackers

:20:38.:20:41.

and others, she had done so with no knowledge of who or what they were

:20:42.:20:47.

for. It is this apparant lack of knowledge, about the financial

:20:48.:20:50.

details of her business, that would appear to mark Brooks out from other

:20:51.:20:58.

Murdoch bosses. Murdoch kept terrific tabs on the figures, there

:20:59.:21:03.

was weekly figures of output, income, how many papers had been

:21:04.:21:10.

printed, how many ads had gone and so on. These would be supplied to

:21:11.:21:15.

him and he would question executives if they didn't have information or

:21:16.:21:20.

not. I think if you look at Rebekah Brooks regime that she had it easier

:21:21.:21:24.

than the editors of the Sunday Times and other papers. I think he had Mel

:21:25.:21:30.

bowed and was a lot more relaxed and that had a lot to do with his

:21:31.:21:33.

personal relationship with her, he trusted her. Acquittal on all

:21:34.:21:39.

charges leaves Rebekah Brooks vindicated and Rupert Murdoch no

:21:40.:21:43.

doubt relieved, but must leave open the question of whether she was ever

:21:44.:21:47.

really the right person to run a newspaper business. The Guardian's

:21:48.:21:58.

investigative report e Nick Davies broke the story in 2009 that hack

:21:59.:22:04.

was not limited to one rogue reporter. He's with us now. In the

:22:05.:22:08.

end one man has been convicted today, five people acquitted,

:22:09.:22:12.

including Rebekah Brooks. A newspaper closed down, hundreds of

:22:13.:22:15.

people lost their jobs, didn't really amount to very much did it?

:22:16.:22:20.

You have got your facts wrong, I'm so sorry. Operation Wheating this

:22:21.:22:27.

police inquiry charged eight people with phone hacking, and five pleaded

:22:28.:22:30.

guilty before the trial started. Today you had a sixth person

:22:31.:22:36.

convicted, it is a little bit misleading because the five people

:22:37.:22:40.

who pleaded guilty before the trial started are not in the dock. They

:22:41.:22:43.

charged eight and got six convictions, the editor, three news

:22:44.:22:47.

editors, two specialist hackers and in addition to the one rogue

:22:48.:22:51.

reporter originally convicted. A pretty high score. For many people

:22:52.:22:56.

the real totem of this story, the person who was the chief executive

:22:57.:23:00.

of the business in question, Rebekah Brooks, walked completely free? We

:23:01.:23:04.

need to think about Rebekah Brooks's acquittals, here is the thing, I

:23:05.:23:07.

think public opinion doesn't understand why she was acquitted.

:23:08.:23:10.

You look at some of the stuff on Twitter today, but there is a really

:23:11.:23:14.

easy explanation about why she was acquitted which is the prosecution

:23:15.:23:17.

case was weak. I have spent six-and-a-half years trying to

:23:18.:23:22.

uncover this scandal, I spent almost all of the last eight months

:23:23.:23:26.

listening to the evidence. If I was on the jury I would have found her

:23:27.:23:30.

not guilty. The case was too weak and the state doesn't have a right

:23:31.:23:35.

to send people to prison unless it can prove its case. This is

:23:36.:23:39.

important, some people rage out there talking about her being a

:23:40.:23:45.

witch, what they are doing is hypocrisy, they are behaving like

:23:46.:23:49.

the worst brutes at the bad end of Fleet Street who have a history of

:23:50.:23:53.

thinking they know better than juries, and organising lynch mob

:23:54.:23:58.

justice against her. Go quiet, give her the verdicts, she is entitled to

:23:59.:24:03.

them. And this, this is not a story about Rebekah Brooks. It is a story

:24:04.:24:08.

with layers and layers of scandal, which begins with the sheer scale of

:24:09.:24:11.

crime, at the News of the World and other newsrooms in Fleet Street.

:24:12.:24:14.

Then it is about the historic failure of the press regulator, not

:24:15.:24:18.

just to deal with the crime but to enforce their own Code of Conduct,

:24:19.:24:22.

then it is about the historic failure of the police and then

:24:23.:24:28.

Government. And their relationship with Rupert Murdoch. It is not about

:24:29.:24:31.

Rebekah Brooks, it is about power. She was someone who was extremely

:24:32.:24:35.

powerful individual, her career has been destroyed, she's the mother of

:24:36.:24:39.

a young child, she has walked free from court and in your view the case

:24:40.:24:43.

against her was weak. Do you feel any sympathy towards her? A healthy

:24:44.:24:48.

criminal justice system will take evidence, will not do what it did

:24:49.:24:52.

when it was behaving corruptly in the past and saying these are

:24:53.:24:55.

important people let's not look at that, and it will pass it on. The

:24:56.:24:58.

evidence in this case was strong enough for the Crown Prosecution

:24:59.:25:02.

Service to say this needs to go forward to a Magistrates' Court, and

:25:03.:25:08.

the magistrates court were right to say it was a prima facia case. The

:25:09.:25:14.

judge looked at it and thought it chuck it out but said no, to a jury.

:25:15.:25:18.

Do you have any regret about what happened here at all? Not at all, we

:25:19.:25:23.

are uncovering a massive scandal. She's entitled to her verdicts, but

:25:24.:25:28.

what you had here was a criminal justice system finally doing its job

:25:29.:25:32.

properly. Before you had cover-up and failure at every stage. It was

:25:33.:25:35.

absolutely right that they brought these charges. You can see that by

:25:36.:25:38.

the fact that contrary to what Steve said at the beginning, six of the

:25:39.:25:42.

eight people who have been charged with conspiracy to hack phones are

:25:43.:25:47.

guilty. 5,500 victims they have identified of the hacking, massive.

:25:48.:25:52.

There have been, however, many, many journalists swept up in this, many

:25:53.:25:56.

on bail for years sometimes, then with no charges brought. And also

:25:57.:26:00.

many who feared that this is damaging the freedom of the press,

:26:01.:26:03.

and allowed the freedom of the press's enemies, given them a

:26:04.:26:06.

whacking great amount of ammunition against the press. It hasn't damaged

:26:07.:26:14.

the freedom of the press to commit crime, to think it is above the law,

:26:15.:26:16.

to bully the police and Government, and set up a corrupt press

:26:17.:26:21.

regulator. In all those ways the freedom of the press has been

:26:22.:26:25.

damaged. I'm really glad. I'm a journalist a spend my working life

:26:26.:26:28.

in that profession, most journalists are good honest people, there is a

:26:29.:26:32.

dark end of Fleet Street who have brought shame on the profession and

:26:33.:26:37.

have corrupted Government and bullied police, it is great to clean

:26:38.:26:41.

it up. I'm saying give Rebekah Brooks her verdicts, it is not the

:26:42.:26:45.

story, it is about power. Don't complain about what the police did,

:26:46.:26:48.

they finally did what the public needed them to do, to run an honest,

:26:49.:26:52.

thorough inquiry. The trial was a good one. You can't criticise it, a

:26:53.:26:57.

good judge, excellent jury, a good result here. An acquittal doesn't

:26:58.:27:01.

mean the system is failing, but it is doing its job and separating the

:27:02.:27:04.

evidence from the weak evidence. Isn't part of the truth that your

:27:05.:27:07.

story that changed the dynamic of all of this, the story about Milly

:27:08.:27:12.

Dowler's voicemail that caused such a public outcry that really got

:27:13.:27:16.

probably many of the members of the public to notice this for the first

:27:17.:27:22.

time. On the specifics, the deletion of Milly Dowler's voicemail, it

:27:23.:27:25.

wasn't entirely and completely accurate. And your paper have made a

:27:26.:27:30.

very detailed clarification on that. And that's what led to the Leveson

:27:31.:27:34.

Inquiry, do you accept that? No that is a really complicated way of

:27:35.:27:38.

putting it. If we are talking about the criminal investigation,

:27:39.:27:40.

Operation Wheating, which has done all this work, started six months

:27:41.:27:44.

before we published the Milly Dowler stories, no connection at all.

:27:45.:27:46.

Secondly, there was a massive crisis before we published the story.

:27:47.:27:50.

Thirdly, at the end of the day it is a complicated question and you might

:27:51.:27:53.

not want to get into it, we still don't know the truth about that. The

:27:54.:27:57.

evidence strongly suggests, we are running a story about it, the News

:27:58.:28:01.

of the World did manually delete messages, just not the ones that

:28:02.:28:07.

caused the false hope. We are running out of time, what is next?

:28:08.:28:13.

We have disclosed in the Guardian that Rupert Murdoch will be

:28:14.:28:16.

interviewed as a suspect by Scotland Yard. You have got another 12 trials

:28:17.:28:21.

already scheduled involving another 20 current or former News of the

:28:22.:28:24.

World journalist, in the background a total of 210 people have been

:28:25.:28:29.

arrested, including 101 journalists from six different newspapers. There

:28:30.:28:33.

are decisions yet to be made about whether they should be charged. In

:28:34.:28:36.

summary you have probably got another two years of criminal

:28:37.:28:39.

trials, there is masses of litigation still going on with the

:28:40.:28:43.

victims of hacking queueing up to sue in court. We are a long way from

:28:44.:28:47.

the end of the story. Thank you very much for coming in.

:28:48.:28:52.

Throughout her career, Ulrika Johnson has found herself the

:28:53.:28:57.

subject of red-top gossip columns, she worked as a columnist for the

:28:58.:29:01.

News of the World for years, but later found the paper had been

:29:02.:29:05.

hacking her phone. She's with us tonight. You have had years of press

:29:06.:29:10.

attention, you weren't a stranger to it, how did you realise somebody had

:29:11.:29:14.

been listening to your private voicemails? Well the police

:29:15.:29:24.

contacted me in 2011, and so suspicious had I become of just more

:29:25.:29:29.

or less anyone who calls you with anything bizarre, that I didn't call

:29:30.:29:32.

them back and they had to make contact with me about three or four

:29:33.:29:36.

times before they said, no we are really the police and we have some

:29:37.:29:42.

evidence to show you. That's when they showed me evidence that, of

:29:43.:29:49.

personal information that somebody or they had on me. How did you feel

:29:50.:29:54.

when you realised that had actually gone on? Well it made me feel

:29:55.:30:07.

physically sick, because it was quite, some things were quite

:30:08.:30:11.

detailed, you know. They had the entry code to my gate at my house.

:30:12.:30:18.

And apart from anything else lots of numbers and dates and times and

:30:19.:30:24.

places where you have been. It does sort of immediately you are

:30:25.:30:28.

thinking, I'm really not very important and not very, well

:30:29.:30:34.

probably interesting but not very important and significant. It was a

:30:35.:30:39.

horrible experience and just quite scary. We're going to look at what

:30:40.:30:44.

is tomorrow's splash in the Sun, you have been the subject of some of

:30:45.:30:47.

these yourself. But there tomorrow is Rebekah Brooks, a great day for

:30:48.:30:53.

the red tops, ex-Sun editor, Rebekah Brooks found not guilty. How do you

:30:54.:30:57.

feel when you look at that after what has happened today? Well, I

:30:58.:31:09.

guess I was most I guess taken aback by, not taken aback by just the fact

:31:10.:31:15.

they are claiming this as a victory, and we can't make suggestions she

:31:16.:31:18.

was acquitted of all the charges, so it is not about whether or not the

:31:19.:31:22.

trial was right. There is no mention of Andy Coulson

:31:23.:31:26.

there, of course. I worked for Andy for four-and-a-half years, and

:31:27.:31:29.

became very close to him and to his family, to his wife. We both have

:31:30.:31:36.

children with cardiac defects who were treated at the same hospital by

:31:37.:31:39.

the same surgeon, we had that connection. So for me on a personal

:31:40.:31:47.

level I'm shocked at what may happen to him. But this is kind of I'm very

:31:48.:31:57.

surprised by this. It is triumphalist. How do you feel ever

:31:58.:32:02.

everything you have been through some parts of the press will still

:32:03.:32:06.

try to you know try to say there has been a victory, doesn't that suggest

:32:07.:32:09.

to you that they will carry on behaving as they did before? I

:32:10.:32:14.

genuinely have to believe they won't thank they don't. I think this will

:32:15.:32:19.

be or has been and will continue to be a huge and very steep learning

:32:20.:32:24.

curve for them. I would like to think that they have cleaned up

:32:25.:32:28.

their acts. Thank you very much for coming tonight.

:32:29.:32:31.

No-one really comes out of this whole mess well, none of our big

:32:32.:32:36.

institutions any way, whether press, politics or the police. They refused

:32:37.:32:39.

for a long time to take the complaints of victims of the scandal

:32:40.:32:45.

seriously. Painful and seemingly Eppingless wranglings on how to tame

:32:46.:32:51.

the beast to satisfy concerns. Will it change much more the lives of

:32:52.:32:59.

those affected. Press, police, politicians global

:33:00.:33:09.

business and a huge public scandal. The phone hacking saga is an

:33:10.:33:13.

extraordinary story of power and influence in modern Britain. It has

:33:14.:33:19.

the entire establishment in it up to their necks. So how did that happen?

:33:20.:33:36.

It goes back to 1969, the Sun, always a floating voter the Sun

:33:37.:33:44.

famously backed Mrs Thatcher in 1969 and from then on was the newspaper

:33:45.:33:50.

whose support politicians craved. And so began the process of

:33:51.:33:54.

relationship building that brought Tony Blair the backing of the Sun in

:33:55.:34:02.

1997 and David Cameron its endorsement in 2010 and gave senior

:34:03.:34:08.

News of the World figures unrivalled access to the corridors of power.

:34:09.:34:17.

Here at Westminster it became known that Sun support was vital to

:34:18.:34:22.

success. Falling out with Rupert Murdoch and his people wouldn't have

:34:23.:34:26.

been thought of as especially sensible. To cut a long story short

:34:27.:34:32.

few people here wanted to know anything about phone hacking, until

:34:33.:34:35.

Milly Dowler. The vast majority of people in the political world were

:34:36.:34:39.

happy to hide. They didn't want to get into a fight with Rupert

:34:40.:34:44.

Murdoch, why would you? That extends all the way up to the Labour Party.

:34:45.:34:49.

Although Ed Miliband finally behaved courageously and well when the whole

:34:50.:34:53.

story exploded, the earlier track record isn't so great. He's there

:34:54.:34:57.

wining and dining with Rebekah Brooks, trying to make friends with

:34:58.:35:02.

her. He's operating on the same unfortunately twisted logic that

:35:03.:35:05.

infected David Cameron, we have to have the Murdoch crew on side. So f

:35:06.:35:11.

that's why the politicians failed, what about the police? Once again

:35:12.:35:18.

the problem appeared to be proximity to News International. This man quit

:35:19.:35:23.

as Met Commissioner, when it emerged he had hired Andy Coulson's deputy

:35:24.:35:28.

at the News of the World as a PR man for ?1,000 day. The man who led the

:35:29.:35:35.

original phone hacking probe became News International columnist. And

:35:36.:35:40.

Britain's top antiterrorist officer brought in to review the phone

:35:41.:35:45.

hacking, it was revealed later was close to social editors at the

:35:46.:35:49.

paper. He was forced to quit. Do you think they were too close? I

:35:50.:35:53.

didn't know it at the time, I think that they probably were. It is

:35:54.:35:58.

interesting, in one sense they were very dismissive of the media, they

:35:59.:36:03.

were very suspicious of the media. On the other side of the coin, they

:36:04.:36:07.

thought it was you know in a rather niave way they thought politically

:36:08.:36:11.

it was important to have the media on side. However, what they didn't

:36:12.:36:17.

say, they could not see over the horizon that this might be, when

:36:18.:36:21.

things about, this might be a stick that was used to beat them with. So

:36:22.:36:28.

it was that repeated assurances from senior police figures that there

:36:29.:36:33.

really was no greater phone hacking scandal to be uncovered, sounded

:36:34.:36:36.

increasingly hollow. We now know that those reassurances

:36:37.:36:41.

were complete rubbish. Phone hacking was more widespread than had been

:36:42.:36:45.

acknowledged and the evidence for that, 11,000 pages of notes had been

:36:46.:36:50.

in the possession of the police themselves ever since their original

:36:51.:36:57.

inquiry in 20006. Why didn't they investigate further? Lord Justice

:36:58.:37:02.

Leveson looked quite closely at the police operation in 2006/07. He's

:37:03.:37:07.

right when he says the officers who were actually involved directly in

:37:08.:37:12.

that inquiry are straight guys, who stopped the job prematurely because

:37:13.:37:18.

their counter terrorism officers so they had to get off and investigate

:37:19.:37:22.

mass you are inneder on people. That is right -- murder on people. That

:37:23.:37:28.

is right. But there are a lot of worrying linger questions. Chief

:37:29.:37:33.

amongst them, not why Scotland Yard didn't investigate phone hacking

:37:34.:37:36.

themselves, but went out of their way to stop others from doing so. So

:37:37.:37:42.

the police and the politicians failed, but hang on, what about the

:37:43.:37:46.

majority of the Fourth Estate, our free press, the envy of the world.

:37:47.:37:51.

Well most of what was once Fleet Street didn't want to know about

:37:52.:37:54.

phone hacking at the News of the World either. Traditionally

:37:55.:37:57.

attacking other newspapers, well just wasn't done. Generalised

:37:58.:38:03.

stories of press misbehaviour, well, where do you start? And throw in the

:38:04.:38:08.

fact that no-one wanted to upset the rather comfy apple cart of voluntary

:38:09.:38:12.

self-regulation under the Press Complaints Commission, and there you

:38:13.:38:15.

have it. Ignore it and if you are lucky it will go away.

:38:16.:38:23.

But it didn't. Now there was no ignoring it and the proprietors got

:38:24.:38:28.

the very thing they had sought to avoid, another major public inquiry

:38:29.:38:32.

into the standards, practices and ethics of the press. Months of lurid

:38:33.:38:38.

testimony about press misbehaviour, most of it unconnected with phone

:38:39.:38:43.

hacking brought Lord Justice Leveson to a series of potentially

:38:44.:38:48.

far-reaching, and to victims and campaigners, long overdue

:38:49.:38:51.

recommendations. While campaigners, vim Times and surveys appeared to

:38:52.:38:55.

show most of the public backed firmer action, many in the newspaper

:38:56.:38:59.

industry fear press freedom has already been damaged. Our papers

:39:00.:39:04.

have been cleaned up as never before. It is a miracle that we

:39:05.:39:11.

still manage to make them good, fun, irrasable products every day. Is it

:39:12.:39:15.

your view there are many more stories that perhaps should be told

:39:16.:39:20.

that are not being told? There is a lot more stories either being

:39:21.:39:25.

sanatised or almost out of existence, because we can't write

:39:26.:39:28.

the full facts or theying being spiked. # So that's -- they are

:39:29.:39:37.

being spiked. That is politics, the police and the press. What about the

:39:38.:39:43.

man at the centre of things, Rupert Murdoch.

:39:44.:39:47.

He arrived 45 years ago, the arch outsider, he took on and beat branch

:39:48.:39:50.

after branch of the British establishment. The old press when he

:39:51.:39:56.

bought the News of the World, and later the Times and the Sunday

:39:57.:39:59.

Times, and off the back of his success in Britain he went on to

:40:00.:40:04.

build a huge global media empire. Shaken to the core by phone hacking.

:40:05.:40:09.

It has been massive, one of the pivitol events in the 60-year

:40:10.:40:14.

history of this company. It has upset his business in the UK, in

:40:15.:40:20.

many ways certainly destablised it, maybe in fact destroyed his business

:40:21.:40:27.

in the UK. It has caused the break-up of his company, splitting

:40:28.:40:32.

it into the entertainment assets and newspaper assets. And perhaps most

:40:33.:40:38.

profound of all it has hit his family very hard. It has created

:40:39.:40:43.

rifts everywhere in the family. It is a family at war with itself now,

:40:44.:40:48.

all over hacking. The physical home of the News of

:40:49.:40:49.

all over hacking. The physical home that came with it has gone, but the

:40:50.:40:54.

all over hacking. The physical home scandal is far from over. In the US

:40:55.:40:56.

the Foreign and Corrupt Practices Act beckons and here in the UK lots

:40:57.:41:06.

more trials and even potential corporate liability. This trial,

:41:07.:41:10.

whatever the outcome must mark the end of the Murdoch era in Britain.

:41:11.:41:14.

As for the rest of the press, well, they are not quite what they were,

:41:15.:41:17.

not so much because of hacking and the regulation that will follow, but

:41:18.:41:21.

because of declining circulations and technology. As for the police

:41:22.:41:26.

hacking has played into what have become much broader questions of

:41:27.:41:30.

public confidence. But now the politicians they surely must have

:41:31.:41:37.

learned their lesson? With us now are Nick fare rary a

:41:38.:41:44.

former tabloid journal -- Ferrari, a former tabloid newspaper, a former

:41:45.:41:51.

Star reporter and now film maker, a political philosopher who gave

:41:52.:41:54.

evidence to the Leveson Inquiry, and the assistant editor of the

:41:55.:42:00.

Spectator. Thank you for coming in. We heard there already stories are

:42:01.:42:04.

being sanatised, they are being spiked, they are there are things

:42:05.:42:09.

the public is not finding out enough about because of changes in all of

:42:10.:42:13.

this. As somebody who was in the tabloid press and has now foresworn

:42:14.:42:19.

your past, doesn't that concern you or is that where you want it? I

:42:20.:42:26.

think you can look at it from the other perpicket -- perspective.

:42:27.:42:30.

Maybe they were stories that shouldn't be printed at all. If

:42:31.:42:35.

we're talking about the Sun, Hillsborough, that should have been

:42:36.:42:38.

spiked and it wasn't. There is plenty of stories that aren't being

:42:39.:42:42.

written about that should be written about. Snowdon leaks, a massive

:42:43.:42:47.

press freedom and journalism story you won't read much about it in the

:42:48.:42:51.

Sun. I think there is two ways of looking at that, I think that maybe

:42:52.:42:55.

it is time for the Sun and some of the other tabloids to slightly

:42:56.:42:59.

change their tack. Rather than the easy hits about celebrities but

:43:00.:43:03.

really investing in proper investigative journal, there is not

:43:04.:43:08.

enough young journalists going into the industry to do that. Instead it

:43:09.:43:13.

is the bikini pictures on the beach. I think news land up and down the

:43:14.:43:17.

land will be asking why, why, why. What haven't we focussed on, and

:43:18.:43:21.

what hasn't been said is the incredible cost. The Leveson

:43:22.:43:27.

Inquiry, ?6 million, a headline in tomorrow's Telegraph, ?100 million.

:43:28.:43:31.

That is well over ?100 million for what? One editor found guilty, five

:43:32.:43:35.

people cleared, it is clearly bungled, poorly executed and you

:43:36.:43:39.

wonder why on earth they have done it. It is kept some investigative

:43:40.:43:43.

reporters in work and they have won some awards, apart from that the

:43:44.:43:48.

public don't care. Six people have been found guilty before the start

:43:49.:43:51.

of the trial? They chose not to be put on trial, not found guilty. But

:43:52.:43:56.

in terms. Impact, we heard there in that film the principal journalist

:43:57.:44:02.

saying that stories are being spiked and stamped on. Is that a good

:44:03.:44:06.

thing? I don't know you have to tell me the stories. If you have a

:44:07.:44:10.

cabinet minister who has a problem with drugs, it is good we know about

:44:11.:44:14.

it. If you have a Premier League football player running around with

:44:15.:44:18.

call girls in a hotel, I don't care, it doesn't affect my life. The idea

:44:19.:44:23.

a prominent politician is thieving or inappropriate behaviour it does

:44:24.:44:26.

affect my life. Until I have heard the stories I can't comment. In

:44:27.:44:29.

terms of the affect on the press, the nervousness that has spread, the

:44:30.:44:33.

problem is, there is a stalemate, because some parts of the pressee,

:44:34.:44:38.

yes, that is pretty good, and others saying no it is sending a chill up

:44:39.:44:42.

our spines. Why is there a stalemate in terms of how people are trying to

:44:43.:44:46.

move on? I don't see that there should be a stalemate. The press

:44:47.:44:49.

enjoy freedom of expression and nobody has spoken out against that.

:44:50.:44:55.

Leveson's recommendations were for self-regulation to continue, but

:44:56.:44:58.

with an audit body to make sure that it was robust self-regulation. This

:44:59.:45:02.

is a privilege, afterall, that other provisions no longer have. They are

:45:03.:45:08.

only partially self-regulated. So that the proposed audit body that

:45:09.:45:13.

Leveson recommended seems to me not something to get timid about. It is

:45:14.:45:17.

something to, as it were, take in one's stride and create a good press

:45:18.:45:22.

that really does serious investigative journalism, as you

:45:23.:45:31.

say. The real thing, not the tawdry celeb stories we are getting. The

:45:32.:45:34.

majority of the press accepting that, the royal charter, they are

:45:35.:45:37.

tiny and just not going along with it? At the moment there is only one

:45:38.:45:43.

body which is IPSO, independent press standards organisation, son of

:45:44.:45:47.

PCC, and they have said that they won't apply to be audited. I suppose

:45:48.:45:53.

they are timid that they couldn't meeted standards. Having testified

:45:54.:45:58.

at Leveson are you satisfied with what you have seen so far. Does it

:45:59.:46:01.

meet his requirements? What we have at this stage does not meet his

:46:02.:46:05.

requirements, and I recently put a question in the House of Lords

:46:06.:46:09.

whether it would be satisfactory if the only self-regulating body for

:46:10.:46:14.

the press refused to be audited. I can't say the minister was able to

:46:15.:46:18.

answer that question. So briefly, should the Government force the

:46:19.:46:21.

royal charter on the press? The whole point about the royal charter

:46:22.:46:27.

is it is not forced. There is no state regulation of the press

:46:28.:46:30.

proposed, desspite a certain amount of sleeking. One of the --

:46:31.:46:42.

shrieking. I can't imagine Fraser Nelson

:46:43.:46:53.

shrieking. I think there is an unhealthy lack of trust in

:46:54.:46:56.

politicians, it gave us the opportunity to get their hands on

:46:57.:47:00.

regulation of the media. I'm not going to get hysterical or say they

:47:01.:47:04.

can shut down newspapers or force stories to be spiked. At the

:47:05.:47:08.

Spectator we have seen politicians gleefully seizing then't opportunity

:47:09.:47:13.

presented by press regulation to try to shut down stories they find

:47:14.:47:16.

inconvenient. We have had politicians calling our editor

:47:17.:47:18.

trying to stop writers publishing stories that are just inconvenient.

:47:19.:47:25.

In your view that's new? Respectfully you can't have a little

:47:26.:47:27.

bit of regulation, you can't be a little bit pregnant. Either the

:47:28.:47:31.

Government has got its fingers on it or it hasn't. This idea put forward

:47:32.:47:36.

by supporters, when they are all eating pizza at 2.00am doing shady

:47:37.:47:40.

deals where the press aren't invited. It is like an MOT, it is

:47:41.:47:45.

cobblers, respectfully, it is everything this country has fought

:47:46.:47:49.

against, thank God. Let's wind back there one second, you will find the

:47:50.:47:52.

newspaper groups had ten-times as many meetings with politicians as

:47:53.:47:59.

hacked off or anyone had. The pizza that has been denied it happened,

:48:00.:48:05.

and it gets repeated and it is the worse way the papers work, they

:48:06.:48:10.

repeat that again and again and again. They said on my LBC pizza.

:48:11.:48:15.

What flavour was it, the topping, the details. It doesn't matter.

:48:16.:48:19.

Isn't it part of being a politician to talk to the press? They have to

:48:20.:48:22.

have connections, they have to have links do they not? Of course they

:48:23.:48:26.

do. They have to win elections and they are very dependant on the

:48:27.:48:29.

media. I think what we have to understand is that this is a power

:48:30.:48:33.

relationship and what we have to think about is how do we sustain

:48:34.:48:37.

freedom of expression, which I take to be really important in the face

:48:38.:48:42.

of those who wish it to be controlled either by the press or by

:48:43.:48:46.

the politicians. And I think that we have to find a way of mediating

:48:47.:48:51.

that, Leveson's proposal, taken seriously and not looking at all the

:48:52.:48:55.

stuff that has been said about it, is actually very clever. It is not

:48:56.:49:00.

state regulation of the media, it does not permit censorship of

:49:01.:49:04.

content. You hear already before the full version is up and running we

:49:05.:49:09.

already have politicians trying to use it to shut down stories that

:49:10.:49:13.

they don't want to be published? Politicians will always try that.

:49:14.:49:17.

Politicians run very scared of the press. You have to recognise this.

:49:18.:49:20.

I'm sure they don't all behave well. We have very good evidence of that

:49:21.:49:25.

too. But it isn't a one-way story here. And self-regulation is a

:49:26.:49:29.

privilege we are called to no other powerful body, so I think we have to

:49:30.:49:37.

think very hard about how we sustain self-regulation without falling into

:49:38.:49:43.

the area where we have been... Pizza aside, one of the least impressive

:49:44.:49:47.

things this parliament has done is to force through this legislation

:49:48.:49:52.

that enabled the royal charter in an afternoon, the day after the press

:49:53.:49:56.

talks late at night, MPs voted on the legislation with no scrutiny

:49:57.:50:01.

whatsoever. You talk to many Conservative MPs and they are

:50:02.:50:06.

horrified. It is not legislation. I sat in the bill, it was debated in

:50:07.:50:11.

the Commons. How many times do you see parties vote something through

:50:12.:50:15.

and argue it and the arrogance saying they are above it, saying

:50:16.:50:22.

they are above parliament. Who elected Rupert Murdoch and others,

:50:23.:50:26.

they are not elected peers. They get elected every day by their readers.

:50:27.:50:32.

Don't give me that. Let's see what they are serving up to readers

:50:33.:50:37.

tomorrow morning. A quick look at the papers, the Sun we have seen.

:50:38.:50:40.

Rebekah Brooks on the front. That is all I'm afraid we have time

:50:41.:51:12.

Good evening. In the next few days it looks set to be a little bit

:51:13.:51:22.

cooler compared to

:51:23.:51:23.

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