25/06/2014 Newsnight


25/06/2014

News stories with Emily Maitlis. Including the hacking saga, Wonga and the bogus solicitors, and an interview with Paul Lamb after the latest judgement on his right to die.


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reprecussion for his empire after yesterday's verdict. We ask what

:00:16.:00:18.

fall-out this trial will actually have. One of his fiercest crickets

:00:19.:00:24.

is here. Wonga creates a fake law firm to

:00:25.:00:29.

send threatening letters to its customers, we invent our own and

:00:30.:00:34.

write bac Some call them terrorists, he says

:00:35.:00:38.

he's there to help. An ex-cluesive interview with a British man who

:00:39.:00:43.

fled to Syria to fight. I'm not going to sit there and debate with

:00:44.:00:49.

you or ask you not to call me a terrorist.

:00:50.:01:01.

Rupert Murdoch is flying into town to be met with more than a cream pie

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this time. The conviction of former News of the World editor, Andy

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Coulson, could mean corporate chances against News UK. Those

:01:11.:01:15.

waiting to see the Murdoch empire implode can wait, the family's

:01:16.:01:21.

wealth has doubled almost since the hacking scandal began. As the

:01:22.:01:26.

hacking trial came to an inconclusive end, David Cameron

:01:27.:01:29.

found himself in the dock rebuked by the judge for his ill-advised

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comments. What is the reaction from the verdicts yesterday and whose

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reputation is now at stake? Read all about it. Hacking has hung

:01:40.:01:44.

over the Prime Minister and the press baron for years. David Cameron

:01:45.:01:49.

will be slapped with new headlines for risking the trial. I think for

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my honourable friend is absolutely right. Keeping the promise to

:01:55.:01:59.

apologise for hiring Coulson if he was guilty. I say again today I take

:02:00.:02:04.

full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson, I did so based on the

:02:05.:02:08.

assurances I and the Select Committee received. Always said if

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those assurances turned out to be wrong I would apologise fully and

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frankly to this House of Commons and I do so again today from this

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despatch box. But... That aroused the significant displeasure of

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Justice Saunders, because when Cameron first made his apology

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yesterday the trial wasn't over. At the Old Bailey today the jury were

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discharged, as they just couldn't decide on two final charges.

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Cameron's apology was not the reason they failed to conclude. But the

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judge demanded an explanation. Number Ten is adamant, David Cameron

:02:43.:03:06.

had the best legal advice before opening his mouth. The judge is not

:03:07.:03:09.

blaming him directly for the messy end of this trial. But no Prime

:03:10.:03:12.

Minister wants to be criticised publicly by a senior judge. Saying

:03:13.:03:20.

sorry was meanted to meant to make things better and is deeply awkward

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instead. One of his colleagues thinks it is a mistake. They were

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unwise and there should have been legal wise, I doubt it would have

:03:29.:03:33.

crossed David's mind. Why was it unwise? I will give a properly

:03:34.:03:38.

organised interview or no interview at all. But sadly, later he was

:03:39.:03:44.

reluctant to repeat that criticism. And unfortunately the PM has

:03:45.:03:54.

previous. A different judge said David Cameron should have kept his

:03:55.:03:59.

views to himself during the Lawson household fraud trial, and the

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former Lord Chancellor, Lord Faulkner, told Newsnight there

:04:04.:04:06.

should be a review of the contempt laws, yet the lawyer of some hacking

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victims believes the judge and the PM were following the same fine

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line. The judge this morning clearly didn't agree with the advice of the

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Attorney-General. He was very keen that nothing should happen at the

:04:24.:04:28.

last minute not to fall at the last hurdle. That there was a brink here,

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that David Cameron perhaps was hovering on the brink of disaster in

:04:34.:04:38.

terms of what he had said. But actually it wasn't a disaster

:04:39.:04:44.

afterall. Ed Miliband was rapid to slam Cameron yesterday, in his

:04:45.:04:48.

words, "for taking a criminal to Number Ten". But today he was eager

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to know why was full security clearance not sought for Coulson at

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the start. Let's come to the vetting Mr Speaker, amidst all of the

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warnings, the very least he should have done is insisted immediately on

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coming to office that Andy Coulson should have the highest level of

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security vetting as his six predecessors over the previous 14

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years had. Why didn't he insist on it? Leveson concluded this, the

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level of security clearance was not the decision of either Mr Cameron or

:05:19.:05:23.

Mr Coulson, it was the decision of the Civil Service. Labour thinks

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there is mileage in pushing David Cameron on why Coulson didn't get

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the toughest background checks before he came to work here. They

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hoped to show, at least, something distinctly odd went on. Whatever the

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official version of events may be, there were nerves at senior levels.

:05:43.:05:48.

Labour has asked one former senior civil servant to investigate

:05:49.:05:52.

precisely what Number Ten mandarins got up to, as well as their

:05:53.:05:56.

political bosses. Number Ten insists this one, Jeremy Heywood, simply

:05:57.:06:00.

didn't think Andy Coulson needed the highest level of clearance to start

:06:01.:06:04.

with. That was unworkable so they started the process before he left.

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But Gus O'Donnell says the decision to appoint Coulson was nothing to do

:06:11.:06:14.

with him. The head of the Civil Service at the time will not shed

:06:15.:06:18.

light on whether he warned the PM off. But how would the other

:06:19.:06:26.

powerful man in this scandal write his headline. Well no question it

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could have been worse. It is not just nice for the wider family, well

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the metaphor calm ical one at least, but Rebekah Brooks's Exxon racial

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makes it less likely that other senior executives might be dragged

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into the net. But flying into town some, Rupert Murdoch himself may

:06:52.:06:55.

have to talk to police. And the bill to deal with the scandal has reached

:06:56.:07:01.

?500 million here and in the states. But while Mr Murdoch has had to

:07:02.:07:05.

split up his business, beyond just closing down the News of the World,

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the family and his companies have made lots more money. The opposite

:07:09.:07:14.

of value being destroyed. As a result of this split, the overall

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value of the enterprise has essentially tripled. That has added

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around $6 billion to the Murdoch family wealth. In fact it has been

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an extraordinarily good thing, both for the company in terms of

:07:29.:07:32.

modernising it and changing its practices and also for the Murdoch

:07:33.:07:37.

family in terms of their overall wealth. But there is still

:07:38.:07:41.

difficulties to come. But in terms of making friends or keeping old

:07:42.:07:46.

ones, for the first time in decades, Rupert Murdoch is not close to

:07:47.:07:51.

either of British leader of the opposition or the sitting Prime

:07:52.:07:55.

Minister. And with more trials to come, both of their reputations

:07:56.:08:01.

could still stand to suffer. Not even close. We're joined now which

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Tom Watson, the Labour MP and author. And from New York by Felix

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Salmon, a close observer of the Murdoch empire. We asked News

:08:18.:08:22.

Corporation for an interview but the offer was declined. Let's look at

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the astonishing figures coming out showing the overall value of the

:08:26.:08:32.

Murdoches has tripled. Gone up by ?6 billion in the last few years. Now

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if your goal, or if the goal was to bring down the Murdoch empire that

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has manifestly failed? That was not the goal, the goal was to expose

:08:44.:08:46.

criminality at the heart of the operation of News Corporation. But I

:08:47.:08:50.

think what these figures show is Rupert Murdoch is still an

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extraordinary powerful figure in global commerce and has incredible

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reach into politics. The reason you saw the tension in the House of

:09:00.:09:02.

Commons today is frankly politicians still fear him, he can damage them,

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you see what his ins can do, his television companies, his global

:09:08.:09:13.

reach. He still is a major figure in British politics and that's why the

:09:14.:09:18.

courage of politicians is important in what we do next. You think he

:09:19.:09:21.

will be back, neither leader is close to him per se at the moment,

:09:22.:09:25.

but he hasn't gone from British politics? He has never really gone

:09:26.:09:30.

away. The company have been very clever, in fact they sacked a lot of

:09:31.:09:35.

the people that were associated with the old regime at the company. They

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have brought some smart hires, they are improving their corporate social

:09:40.:09:42.

responsibility, I think you can see progress in the way they are

:09:43.:09:46.

cleaning up their act, but at the end of the day it is still old

:09:47.:09:50.

Rupert Murdoch who likes to move politicians around the chess board.

:09:51.:09:55.

Just explain to us why he has done so well out of this? After the

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hacking scandal first exploded he finally was forced to spin off all

:10:04.:10:08.

of his print operations, the newspapers basically, and the books,

:10:09.:10:14.

into a completely separate MP called news Corp, it was everything,

:10:15.:10:18.

before, including the TV and movie studios all which make real money.

:10:19.:10:23.

Now that is a new company called 21st Century Fox, worth $75 billion,

:10:24.:10:29.

and the massive discount that used to be applied to the old News Corp

:10:30.:10:35.

on the grounds that no-one likes owning newspapers these days has

:10:36.:10:39.

completely disappeared. Meanwhile the newspaper company called News

:10:40.:10:44.

Corp, which is smaller and worth about $10 million. It is looking

:10:45.:10:48.

healthy, a bunch of cash, the Wall Street Journal and some good

:10:49.:10:52.

franchises. It is also insulated. The bigger company is insulated from

:10:53.:10:56.

any kind of bad stuff that happens to News Corp now. This was a

:10:57.:11:01.

decision that Rupert Murdoch never wanted to make and he was forced to

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make it and as a result he has made billions of dollars. It has sort of

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done him a favour, having to go through these decisions has done him

:11:10.:11:14.

a favour? I'm not so sure they are insulated. Rupert Murdoch runs these

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companies, and only tonight we have seen Panorama reveal that the

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witness protection programme was compromised in 2006 by people

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working for the company. We see a Tom Harper story in the Independent

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tomorrow showing that senior, former senior, executives have been

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interviewed under caution in relation to potential corporate

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charges. This company is not out of the wood work yet. Where do you

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think that is going then? Which company are you talking about. Go on

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Felix? It depends which company you are talking about. News UK is not

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insulated and News Corp is not entirely insulated but at this point

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21st Century Fox where his real wealth is, that is insulated. I'm

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not sure if Rupert Murdoch's business reputation and legal

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position is insulated. Let's remember he dominates all of these

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companies. But, look, you know, I'm not going to deny, his companies

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make immense amounts of money, which gives him immense amounts of power.

:12:14.:12:18.

The real situation in the UK is where does the police investigation

:12:19.:12:21.

lie. If you were looking at the verdict yesterday and you say Brooks

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has been cleared and Andy Coulson convicted. What does that tell you

:12:27.:12:29.

about the possibility of corporate criminality now? It is not for me to

:12:30.:12:34.

convict or to decide where it goes. We now know that having denied it

:12:35.:12:41.

for five years a senior editor in News Corp was involved in phone

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hacking, and five other senior manager in that company have pleaded

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guilty. Remember for many, many years the company denied any of

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this, and now there is a liability. I think the prosecution authorities

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will be weighing that up. How was this received in the US. Because

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clearly the papers here for obvious reasons were split on whether they

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talked about the one who was cleared or the one who was convicted? I

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think that Coulson is considered a David Cameron story, a political

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story, Rebekah Brooks was the Rupert Murdoch story. When she was

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acquitted the general reaction in the US was well that's the corporate

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executive has gone free and Rupert has won this one. I wonder if you

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see Andy Coulson as a bit of a firewall really, the person that

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sort of kept the Murdoch empire there and the political world there.

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Do you have any sympathy for the position he has played and whether

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he has done it? In some ways, I also have sympathy that his course of

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justice is not over. I don't really want to pass judgment on him myself.

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You know it was never personal with him, it was all about trying to

:13:55.:13:57.

expose what went on with the company. Yes, there is no doubt

:13:58.:14:01.

about it, but in a funny sort of way the story has gone to David Cameron.

:14:02.:14:07.

In one sense that's probably obvious because he went to extraordinary

:14:08.:14:11.

lengths to keep Andy Coulson in office, he took great risks to keep

:14:12.:14:15.

him there when many people warned him that he shouldn't. But in

:14:16.:14:20.

another you know, commerce might think this company is out of the

:14:21.:14:24.

woods, but I'm not sure the British justice system thinks that yet. What

:14:25.:14:28.

does this all tell us about the role of the police and the CPS, given

:14:29.:14:32.

that this body of evidence was pretty much available back in 2006?

:14:33.:14:39.

Firstly I think the meticulous way that priest wheating Operation

:14:40.:14:49.

Wheating dealt with this shows how inadequate the original

:14:50.:14:51.

investigation was, and the only way to find out how woeful that

:14:52.:14:56.

investigation was is some investigation into the police I

:14:57.:14:59.

think the second stage of Leveson which was the bit about who did what

:15:00.:15:04.

to whom should take place. There is something very, very wrong happened

:15:05.:15:08.

with the MetropolitaPolice and their original inquiries. We will only get

:15:09.:15:12.

to the facts that have if we look in some detail. No police officer has

:15:13.:15:17.

been asked to explain why in 2006 they knew that the witness

:15:18.:15:20.

protection programme was compromised by this company and nobody did

:15:21.:15:23.

anything about it. Thank you very much. Iraq's Prime Minister, Nouri

:15:24.:15:30.

Al-Maliki, has rejected calls for a national salvation Government to

:15:31.:15:32.

help counter the offensive by ISIS in his weekly televised address he

:15:33.:15:36.

warned that forming an emergency unity Government could go against

:15:37.:15:41.

April's parliamentary elections and represented an attempt to end the

:15:42.:15:45.

democratic experience. We have our report now in Baghdad. Give us if

:15:46.:15:50.

you can the reaction to today's latest on the ground? Nouri

:15:51.:15:58.

Al-Maliki is facing two very serious but competing changes here. Number

:15:59.:16:01.

one he's trying to hold his country together in the face of this very

:16:02.:16:06.

fierce insurgency, led by ISIS, that has taken over towns and territory

:16:07.:16:10.

in the west and also in the north, but it is also supported by Sunnis

:16:11.:16:17.

in those areas who felt frozen out of the political process of a stake

:16:18.:16:21.

in this country, and further complicated by the Kurds who are

:16:22.:16:26.

also taking on territory they have long claimed. But Nouri Al-Maliki is

:16:27.:16:29.

also trying to hold on to his job, those parliamentary elections in

:16:30.:16:33.

April, he got the most votes, but he didn't win them outright. In Iraq's

:16:34.:16:37.

system of horse trading and coalition building, that doesn't

:16:38.:16:40.

necessarily mean that he still gets to be Prime Minister. So his

:16:41.:16:45.

reactions to calls for a national salvation Government have been

:16:46.:16:48.

interpreted as a Government that possibly doesn't include him as its

:16:49.:16:52.

head. He has rejected that very strongly. On the other hand he knows

:16:53.:16:55.

he needs the help of the Americans to try to defeat ISIS. He has

:16:56.:17:00.

admitted that much himself. It is clear from what the Americans have

:17:01.:17:04.

said that they see him as a devisive figure, as a man who has ruled this

:17:05.:17:08.

country, who has run it in an overtly sectarian manner and is at

:17:09.:17:12.

least partly to blame for the trouble that we are here now. When

:17:13.:17:16.

you are on the ground, how palpable is the sectarian divide that we are

:17:17.:17:27.

reporting? I don't know if you can hear me, when you are on the ground

:17:28.:17:31.

pow palpable is that sectarian divide we are reporting? I couldn't

:17:32.:17:35.

hear that question if there was one. But if you were asking me about the

:17:36.:17:40.

mood here on the ground today as that national salvation Government

:17:41.:17:43.

was rejected, Nouri Al-Maliki, number one made it clear that he

:17:44.:17:48.

wasn't rejecting the idea of forming an inclusive Government, which he

:17:49.:17:50.

says will happen in a matter of days, if not weeks. But on the

:17:51.:17:55.

ground here, if you go to Sunni areas in Baghdad, like I have been,

:17:56.:18:01.

you feel a strong sense of fear. Even amongst people who want this

:18:02.:18:06.

country to stick together. Tales of arrest and arbitary arrest that

:18:07.:18:09.

people feel very much is simply because of their faith, because they

:18:10.:18:13.

are Sunni in this country that is dominated by the Shi'ite Government.

:18:14.:18:17.

Nouri Al-Maliki holds not only the Prime Ministership but also the two

:18:18.:18:21.

crucial security ministries, defence and interior, and that has led many

:18:22.:18:26.

to feel in this still unstable nation, many in the Sunni community

:18:27.:18:30.

that they have simply been frozen out. The Islamic state of Iraq and

:18:31.:18:45.

ISIS have uploaded up videos of their activities even crucifixions,

:18:46.:18:52.

but ISIS members do not like to be named by the Islamic term because of

:18:53.:19:04.

the extremism. Parallels brought -- in a moment an exclusive interview

:19:05.:19:07.

with a British man fighting in Syria, but first a brief explanation

:19:08.:19:13.

of what Haraj means. During the last days there will

:19:14.:19:17.

appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but

:19:18.:19:25.

their faith will not go beyond their throats. They will leave their

:19:26.:19:31.

religion as a bird goes after its prey, where you find them, kill

:19:32.:19:33.

them. These words attributed to the

:19:34.:19:38.

Prophet Mohammed were said to show the first group of extremists in

:19:39.:19:47.

Islam, "those who leave". They emerged in southern Iraq in the 7th

:19:48.:19:51.

century. In the years following Mohammed's death, battle raged

:19:52.:19:55.

between his son-in-law and the Governor of Syria over who should

:19:56.:19:59.

lead the Muslims. Is it peace negotiations were started between

:20:00.:20:03.

the two as to which of them it should be. This angered some of

:20:04.:20:09.

early supporters who believe God not man must choose the leader, and this

:20:10.:20:15.

group broke away. Furious with Ali for agreeing to negotiations, and

:20:16.:20:22.

the other for trying to usurp his title. They were famed for their

:20:23.:20:26.

religious fervour but also brutality, massacring Muslims who

:20:27.:20:29.

disagreed with their interpretation of Islam, including Ali. The

:20:30.:20:34.

original group were eventually defeated and they are considered her

:20:35.:20:39.

particulars, but their legacy still resonates, the term is used to

:20:40.:20:43.

describe groups considered too extreme. The Algerian Islamist group

:20:44.:20:50.

GIA, in the 1990s carried out civilian massacres is thoughed to

:20:51.:21:01.

have become modern day Khawrij. And Al-Qaeda have been accused of being

:21:02.:21:08.

the same. Even ISIS have been accused of had heing Khawraji, they

:21:09.:21:14.

deny being that, while the group continues its march towards southern

:21:15.:21:21.

Iraq, the birth place of Islam's first extremists. We have

:21:22.:21:25.

interviewed a British man from Brighton fighting in Syria. He

:21:26.:21:28.

travelled with his two younger brothers, one of whom was killed

:21:29.:21:31.

three months ago. He's not part of ISIS, but has been fighting

:21:32.:21:36.

alongside the Al-Qaeda affiliated group, and more MoD raid Islamist

:21:37.:21:42.

groups. Senior figures have criticised ISIS and their

:21:43.:21:45.

activities. It illustrates the divisions between fighters in Syria.

:21:46.:21:50.

We sent him questions and he videoed his replies.

:21:51.:26:03.

Joining me now is the chair of contemporary Middle East studies at

:26:04.:26:10.

the LSE who has written extensively on Al-Qaeda and spoken to hundreds

:26:11.:26:14.

of fighters in their ranks. Thank you for coming in. Do the opinions

:26:15.:26:18.

that you heard there of one extremist sound familiar to you. Are

:26:19.:26:22.

these what other Brits out there fighting in Syria are saying? You

:26:23.:26:26.

know what you have heard really is a scripted ideolgical template by an

:26:27.:26:34.

Al-Qaeda operative. A well known view on victimhood and distorted

:26:35.:26:39.

reading of the Muslim doctrine. He doesn't speak for the Sunni

:26:40.:26:42.

community, he says he's defending for the Muslim community. He speaks

:26:43.:26:47.

for a hyper-minority Sunni view, what we call the Al-Qaeda family. He

:26:48.:26:52.

says they are not interested in returning, for example, they are not

:26:53.:26:55.

a threat to this country once they return, do you believe that? Emily,

:26:56.:27:00.

no, I don't. I would not take what he says for granted for two major

:27:01.:27:05.

reasons, first, we know that wars are transformative. What he says

:27:06.:27:08.

today might not hold in one or two years. His world might be shattered,

:27:09.:27:14.

deep scars, we know what wars do. Exactly what we need to understand

:27:15.:27:17.

about Al-Qaeda, whether you are talking about the parent

:27:18.:27:21.

organisation, Al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden and others, or the Islamic

:27:22.:27:28.

state, this is a top-down vanguard elitist, secretive, self-enclosed

:27:29.:27:32.

movement. This gentleman here does not basically act and say what he

:27:33.:27:41.

believes in, he basically has sworn the oath to the chief, the Amir of

:27:42.:27:48.

the Islamic state. If the Amir, the chief of ISIS says to him, look I

:27:49.:27:51.

want you to commit to carry out a suicide bombing, he would have to do

:27:52.:27:55.

it. This is the reality, this is a vanguard, top-down organisation and

:27:56.:27:58.

elitist organisation. That is why I would not take his words for

:27:59.:28:02.

granted. Of course this man is not in ISIS, but just the factions, the

:28:03.:28:07.

sectarianism is mind-boggling now. If you try to explain to our viewers

:28:08.:28:13.

that Al-Qaeda, who are behind 9/11, consider ISIS to be too extreme,

:28:14.:28:25.

then... Emily ISIS's extremism gives Al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden a good

:28:26.:28:29.

name, this is how bad it is. Look what has happened between ISIS, the

:28:30.:28:36.

Islamic state and the official arm of Al-Qaeda. I mean ISIS has

:28:37.:28:42.

butchered hundreds of the official arm of Al-Qaeda. They have killed

:28:43.:28:47.

hundreds of them. They not only excommunicate their enemies, the

:28:48.:28:54.

Syrian Government and civilians, they excommunicate Al-Qaeda-linked

:28:55.:28:59.

fighters because they disagree with their politics. ISIS is a her

:29:00.:29:07.

receiptic movement because it celebrates -- her receiptic movement

:29:08.:29:11.

because it celebrates violence. How will that change if the US and UK

:29:12.:29:14.

enter the equation? I have no doubt in my mind, when we talk about

:29:15.:29:20.

Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda is a family, you have sisters and brothers, Osama Bin

:29:21.:29:24.

Laden was the far enemy to the United States and the enemies. The

:29:25.:29:27.

main target of the Al-Qaeda groups today is the near enemy, the local,

:29:28.:29:33.

the Arab and Muslim leaders. But if the United Stat basically decides to

:29:34.:29:37.

take on ISIS in Iraq and Syria I could easily seen the lines blurred

:29:38.:29:42.

between the far and near enemy. I could easily see this gentleman

:29:43.:29:45.

basically deciding and designing attacks against the United States

:29:46.:29:48.

and its allies, particularly the western countries. It takes a

:29:49.:29:55.

certain kind of mind to come up with a ruse like this one, Wonga,

:29:56.:30:00.

Britain's most famous pay-day lender invented a law firm in order to send

:30:01.:30:05.

its customers threatening letters over legal action against

:30:06.:30:09.

outstanding debt. They then charged the customers for the time the fake

:30:10.:30:14.

law firm had spent being well a fake law firm. Today the Financial

:30:15.:30:18.

Conduct Authority ordered Wonga to pay ?2. 5 million compensation to

:30:19.:30:26.

their rather real 45,000 customers. Few things are as stressful as

:30:27.:30:30.

receiving letters from debt collectors and lawyers. But imagine

:30:31.:30:35.

receiving a letter from a law firm, threatening legal action and then

:30:36.:30:39.

discovering that the firm doesn't actually exist. That's the situation

:30:40.:30:45.

45,000 customers of Wonga found themselves in between 2008 and 2010.

:30:46.:30:55.

With a loan from Wongsawat.com, you will decide the amount you want.

:30:56.:31:01.

Today the Financial Conduct Authority has forced the company to

:31:02.:31:05.

pay compensation worth ?2. 6 million to those affected. To put pressure

:31:06.:31:15.

on those who owed them cash, Wonga sent pressure from what appeared to

:31:16.:31:19.

be two law firms. Despite coming from Wonga itself, the letters

:31:20.:31:23.

opened... The letters claimed to come from

:31:24.:31:44.

Barker and Lowe. We are not surprised but horrified by the news.

:31:45.:31:47.

The reason is we have been worried about the whole of the payday

:31:48.:31:53.

industry for a considerable time because of the reports we get from

:31:54.:31:55.

people coming for assistance to us. It is partly because the business

:31:56.:32:00.

model for payday lending is all about thriving on deepening debt. It

:32:01.:32:03.

is also because some of the dubious practices we see across the industry

:32:04.:32:07.

and we don't accept the argument that this is just rogue outliars, it

:32:08.:32:14.

is clearly across the industry. These offices in west London were

:32:15.:32:18.

once home to Wonga's HQ, coincidently they were also the

:32:19.:32:21.

where the letters from the fake law firms claimed to come. Somewhere in

:32:22.:32:25.

the rooms in here someone had to sit down and think of names for two fake

:32:26.:32:30.

law firm, how did they do it, you wonder. In a fervour, even more

:32:31.:32:37.

striking coincidence, those two fake firms share their names with members

:32:38.:32:42.

of Wonga's staff. Wonga today have issued a statement:

:32:43.:32:59.

An apology and compensation payments are one thing, but why won't they be

:33:00.:33:06.

subject to a fine as well. The Financial Conduct Authority took

:33:07.:33:09.

over regulation of consumer lenders this April. It says it can't issue

:33:10.:33:14.

fines for behaviour before this date. But there's another issue at

:33:15.:33:19.

play here too. Surely people have been asking, pretending to be a law

:33:20.:33:24.

firm when you might not even have a GCSE is law is, well, against the

:33:25.:33:29.

law. Not exactly. People can set up and call themselves law firms, they

:33:30.:33:34.

can't set themselves up and call themselves solicitors, because that

:33:35.:33:37.

would be an offence, they can call themselves a law firm even though

:33:38.:33:40.

they are not lawyers, and certain things they can do without actually

:33:41.:33:44.

being properly regulated at all. That has to be a concern. Calling

:33:45.:33:48.

yourself a solicitor or a barrister when you are not will get you into

:33:49.:33:53.

serious trouble. But as long as you avoid those terms and are careful

:33:54.:33:57.

with your wording, there is quite a big grey area that can be exploited.

:33:58.:34:02.

We asked Wonga to appear on the programme tonight, they declined. So

:34:03.:34:08.

since it seems pretty much anyone can call themselves a lawyer now

:34:09.:34:14.

aday, we thought we would try this. They may not want to talk to

:34:15.:34:22.

Newsnight, but maybe a letter from Duncan Weldon Associates might

:34:23.:34:25.

change their mind. Sadly, we didn't make it past reception.

:34:26.:34:30.

Who knows, maybe the letter did. Campaigners seeking the right to die

:34:31.:34:33.

without risk of their loved ones being prosecuted lost their

:34:34.:34:36.

challenge in the Supreme Court today. But in a significant ruling

:34:37.:34:40.

the Supreme Court concluded it does have the power to declare the law

:34:41.:34:46.

which creme Ialises acts of those who help to take a life as

:34:47.:34:52.

incompatible with human life. It directed parliament to consider

:34:53.:34:56.

assisted parliament or see judges stepping in. The case came from the

:34:57.:35:02.

widow of Tony Nicklinson and by Paul Lamb, who gave this exclusive

:35:03.:35:08.

interview. The Supreme Court have ruled against

:35:09.:35:11.

you, you have lost your case, but they have said that parliament,

:35:12.:35:15.

effectively, should know change the law on assisted suicide, how do you

:35:16.:35:19.

feel about that? I think it is a step in the right direction, because

:35:20.:35:25.

it is now, I believe, forcing parliament to take it on board, and

:35:26.:35:31.

if they don't, from what I have heard, I will have a right to come

:35:32.:35:35.

back to the Supreme Court, for them to make a judgment. So it is kind of

:35:36.:35:40.

a victory wrapped in a defeat, really? Yeah. But whatever way you

:35:41.:35:49.

look at it, the one thing that I was saying to my two carers last night,

:35:50.:35:55.

I actually feel proud of myself for what I have done, for myself and a

:35:56.:36:01.

lot of other people that perhaps haven't got the strength to, the

:36:02.:36:06.

strength that this journey has taken, which once again it is

:36:07.:36:14.

knocking the stuffing out of me. What do you say to people that they

:36:15.:36:17.

have huge sympathy, empathy with you, but life is sacred, and there

:36:18.:36:23.

should be no change to the law that allows assisting a suicide? I have

:36:24.:36:26.

all the respect in the world for individuals and their beliefs. All

:36:27.:36:33.

the respect. It is their views, it is their, it is what they are, and

:36:34.:36:39.

I'm what I am. But I do resent them stopping me, because these are

:36:40.:36:43.

people usually that don't experience pain, they really don't. When the

:36:44.:36:48.

pain is bad what's that like for you? I just literally compared it

:36:49.:36:54.

with being hit by a bus, laid on the floor and waiting for somebody to

:36:55.:36:58.

come and pick me up and take me to the hospital and make me better, and

:36:59.:37:03.

that is the experience I get. And when it comes it is horrible. People

:37:04.:37:07.

will listen to you, Paul, and they will say, look this is a really

:37:08.:37:11.

intelligent and articulate man, he's still part of life, he as still able

:37:12.:37:18.

to converse to enjoy things, to travel, to read, there should never

:37:19.:37:22.

be a law that allows someone like that to be assisted to die? Firstly

:37:23.:37:29.

I would thank them for those comments, but when I get a good day

:37:30.:37:35.

it is, it is fantastic, and you know there will be a granddaughter coming

:37:36.:37:40.

along soon. My daughter in Australia she's got a little girl and they are

:37:41.:37:48.

living on the beach, just 800ms up from where they film Home and Away

:37:49.:37:53.

on television, so I have helped them get there. I mean and I do take a

:37:54.:37:59.

part in that because between my wife and myself we did a great job with

:38:00.:38:04.

them and they are fantastic kids. People will say with all of that, to

:38:05.:38:09.

enjoy, why is it that at some point you want a doctor to assist you to

:38:10.:38:15.

end your life? I have seen people, I have got to know and be friends with

:38:16.:38:22.

and I have seen quite a few people die, suffering badly, really badly

:38:23.:38:26.

and I have actually seen their family come to see these people and

:38:27.:38:33.

the family has been crying, it makes them so upset seeing a loved one

:38:34.:38:37.

going through such pain. I just want it there for when I know it is the

:38:38.:38:44.

end of the road. And I will know. If I can't be got right, I don't wish

:38:45.:38:51.

to spend years in bed just screaming out in pain. To believe it or not my

:38:52.:38:57.

son and daughter don't want that. In fact I sent an e-mail out, it was

:38:58.:39:02.

one to a lot of people, including my son and daughter saying that I'm in

:39:03.:39:10.

court today and my son wrote one back and said so proud of you dad,

:39:11.:39:15.

kiss, kiss. It touches me stuff like that. And I love him to bits, I

:39:16.:39:21.

really do. That was Paul talking to Clive, who is here now. Incredibly

:39:22.:39:27.

moving that interview, but as Paul says, it was a step forward in one

:39:28.:39:32.

way, but he lost. What Paul wanted and what the late Tony Nicklinson,

:39:33.:39:37.

now represented by his widow wanted was a declaration that our blanket

:39:38.:39:43.

ban on assisting a suicide, which prevents people like Paul and Tony

:39:44.:39:47.

from getting assistance to end their life at a time that they choose.

:39:48.:39:53.

That blanket ban was incompatible with his Article 8 right to have a

:39:54.:39:58.

private and family life. He lost on that by a majority of 7-2, two of

:39:59.:40:03.

the justices were prepared to grant that declaration, but that was a

:40:04.:40:08.

loss. However, having said that, by a slim majority two of the justices

:40:09.:40:15.

ruled that blanket ban was potentially inpatable and the others

:40:16.:40:19.

-- incompatible and two others thought so too. Six of the justices

:40:20.:40:23.

effectively said now parliament it is up to you to look at amending

:40:24.:40:27.

this legislation. So what happened there really was a flexing of the

:40:28.:40:31.

court's constitutional muscles saying look, over to you parliament,

:40:32.:40:35.

look at amending this legislation. We don't really think a lot of it.

:40:36.:40:42.

One said that the infringement into Paul Lamb's private life was grave

:40:43.:40:46.

as a result of the blanket ban. Have a look at it, and if you don't do

:40:47.:40:52.

anything we have the power to make a declaration of incompatibility over

:40:53.:40:56.

this ban. If we did that there would be a prisoner vote situation where a

:40:57.:41:01.

blanket ban was deemed to be in breach of convention rights. It is

:41:02.:41:05.

over to parliament now? It is, and will parliament do anything about

:41:06.:41:08.

it. There is no great signs that there is a huge will to do so. Next

:41:09.:41:16.

month Lord Faulkner has a bill on assisted dying, this is for people

:41:17.:41:20.

terminally ill with six months to live. If parliament doesn't do

:41:21.:41:23.

anything or enact legislation, what could happen is this could come back

:41:24.:41:29.

to the Supreme Court, and if they then make a declaration of

:41:30.:41:32.

incompatibility, then you have a real stand-off between our most

:41:33.:41:35.

powerful court and parliament, you have the makings there of a

:41:36.:41:42.

constitutional crisis. The teeth marks on his left shoulder had two

:41:43.:41:52.

explanation, either he walked backwards into Suarez's mouth or he

:41:53.:41:55.

has been at it again. Suarez has form when it comes to biting, this

:41:56.:42:00.

is the third time he has chomped an opposition player in anger. He could

:42:01.:42:03.

face ban from the World Cup, even two years. No doubt aching

:42:04.:42:07.

frustration from his team-mates. There may also be a hefty economic

:42:08.:42:11.

cost to the bite as sponsors threaten to abandon the footballer

:42:12.:42:18.

they nickname "Jaws". We have a sports psychology on the programme.

:42:19.:42:27.

Andrews Andrea, why, not once, not twice, but why? It is such a strange

:42:28.:42:33.

act for people to see, particularly in live sport at this particular

:42:34.:42:36.

level. You have got highly successful, highly competitive

:42:37.:42:40.

people and obviously he's a star player, to see this sort of thing a

:42:41.:42:44.

great question. It is repetitive behaviour so it would suggest that

:42:45.:42:49.

there is some difficulty in changing the behaviour. But I think that it

:42:50.:42:54.

is almost the question of why begs more questions from me. If he wasn't

:42:55.:42:58.

a footballer or one of the most highly paid sports men in the world

:42:59.:43:02.

we would say that is assault. If I did that to you it would be assault,

:43:03.:43:06.

nobody would be asking why, would they? That's right. It is the topic

:43:07.:43:13.

of biting typically comes up with toddlers in terms of acting out in

:43:14.:43:18.

frustration, not quite understanding why they are behaving like that.

:43:19.:43:22.

There are other areas of psychology that we will look into the act of

:43:23.:43:26.

biting and it often involves acts of aggression. What about toddlers, it

:43:27.:43:31.

is presumably because they haven't got words or language? There is the

:43:32.:43:36.

emotion and frustration. That is what we would assume is going on

:43:37.:43:41.

with Luis. He's very frustrated in these particular circumstances and

:43:42.:43:45.

he's acting out in that frustration, but very impulsively. So without any

:43:46.:43:52.

rational thought. If you were talking to a toddler or footballer

:43:53.:43:56.

how do you break the cycle, obviously it is at a moment when

:43:57.:43:59.

they are on the pitch, nobody is going to step in, and say don't bite

:44:00.:44:05.

that guy? When we think about elite sport and particularly football,

:44:06.:44:09.

they are competing quite a lot. So in terms of being able to stop,

:44:10.:44:15.

reset, make some behavioral changes and maybe some cognitive changes as

:44:16.:44:19.

well t takes time and effort and motivation to want to make that

:44:20.:44:24.

change. So time out of the sport and... Like two years? Well, you

:44:25.:44:29.

know, I keep saying it but there seems to be more questions that come

:44:30.:44:33.

than answers in terms of why this behaviour is repetitive and why it

:44:34.:44:37.

is on going, we need to investigate the factors leading to this sort of

:44:38.:44:40.

behaviour. Thank you very much indeed. Let's take you through the

:44:41.:44:43.

papers and front pages of tomorrow. A clarification now, earlier in the

:44:44.:45:37.

programme there was a suggestion that Rupert Murdoch was flying into

:45:38.:45:40.

the country to be questioned by police, although it is understood

:45:41.:45:42.

the Metropolitan Police are planning to talk to Mr Murdoch, it was wrong

:45:43.:45:48.

to imply any interview was imminent. That is all we have time for, good

:45:49.:45:50.

night. Good evening, Thursday is set to be

:45:51.:46:05.

a fine day for most of us across the country, there is a little bit of

:46:06.:46:10.

rain on the way. It could turn heavy in the afternoon across the south

:46:11.:46:13.

west of England and south of Wales too. This is the only place in the

:46:14.:46:17.

country where we will see the heavy rain, the vast majority of us will

:46:18.:46:21.

enjoy bright weather. Here is Scotland and Northern Ireland, apart

:46:22.:46:23.

from thicker cloud and maybe a

:46:24.:46:24.

The hacking saga continues for the Prime Minister. The money lender Wonga and the bogus solicitors. The British man from Brighton currently fighting in Syria. Interview with Paul Lamb after the latest judgement on his right to die.


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