26/06/2014 Newsnight


26/06/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.


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dropped by Syria as the country's future looks more bleak, was our

:00:12.:00:18.

past involvement in 2003 a mistake. In retrospect yeah, I'm not seeking

:00:19.:00:22.

to evade or avoid my responsibilities for having made

:00:23.:00:25.

that decision. The Foreign Secretary at the time tell uses us we -- tells

:00:26.:00:31.

us we got it wrong. We are live in Baghdad.. The Iraqi Prime Minister

:00:32.:00:39.

tells us he welcomes the Syrian air strikes as he struggles to hold it

:00:40.:00:44.

together. What have the license fee and this posh house in the country

:00:45.:00:47.

got in common. More than you might think. The decades of Jimmy Savile's

:00:48.:00:54.

de-Paris Match vow are revealed in an official inquiry. We will ask how

:00:55.:00:58.

he was able to get away with it for so long. Growing up I was a soccer

:00:59.:01:09.

fan, I'm enjoying being an American. They may have lost to Germany but

:01:10.:01:12.

they have done better than England. Is it time to get behind America's

:01:13.:01:25.

bid for World Cup glory. ?TRANSMIT The Iraqi Prime Minister said thank

:01:26.:01:29.

you for bombs that dropped on his country today, such is the dessprat

:01:30.:01:35.

state of affairs that he welcomed President Assad's Syrian plane that

:01:36.:01:38.

is struck on insurgents on Iraq's borders, and he has ordered his own

:01:39.:01:43.

fighter planes to help from Russia. But when the Foreign Secretary,

:01:44.:01:47.

William Hague, met with Nouri Al-Maliki today, he urged him and

:01:48.:01:50.

leaders from every part of Iraq, Sunni and Shia, to unite to stop a

:01:51.:02:01.

descent into chaos. William Hague said Iraq faced an existential

:02:02.:02:07.

threat, and he said there could only be a political solution to this

:02:08.:02:11.

crisis. We heard similar words earlier this week from John Kerry.

:02:12.:02:14.

We have heard words from Iraqi politician, including the Prime

:02:15.:02:17.

Minister, about forming an inclozeive new Government. But if

:02:18.:02:21.

you look at what's happening on the ground, those words feel very much

:02:22.:02:24.

like just that. Hollow words. If you look at Iraqi television at the

:02:25.:02:28.

moment, hours and hours of footage of young men, volunteering to join

:02:29.:02:34.

militias, brandishing guns, going off to fight. If you speak to

:02:35.:02:40.

Sunnis, many say they feel frozen out of stake in this country and in

:02:41.:02:44.

the places where ISIS is in control, many in the north and west, many

:02:45.:02:48.

Sunnis are supporting that group rather than their own Government.

:02:49.:02:53.

Clashes and skirmishes are still going on, mainly again in the north

:02:54.:02:57.

and west, which is quite some way away from where I am in Baghdad.

:02:58.:03:01.

Perhaps because of that distance in the capital itself there is a sense

:03:02.:03:15.

of uneasy calm. In a city used to everyday violence a sudden spell of

:03:16.:03:21.

calm is not necessarily good news. In Baghdad these past few weeks

:03:22.:03:23.

there have been fewer bombings than usual. But Iraq is struggling to

:03:24.:03:31.

hold itself together and the capital feels like an uncertain place.

:03:32.:03:39.

Baghdad feels weirdly quiet, the streets look almost deserted

:03:40.:03:44.

compared to what they usually are, that is because many people are

:03:45.:03:47.

leaving town. Some have gone up north to fight against ISIS, but

:03:48.:03:51.

others have been telling us that they are leaving town simply because

:03:52.:03:56.

they are scared to stay. The region's geopolitical alliances are

:03:57.:04:01.

morphing. On Tuesday, an air strike just inside Iraq's borders was

:04:02.:04:06.

attributed to the Syrian air force. Until recently Iraq accused Syria of

:04:07.:04:10.

stoking unrest in the desert heartland that straddles the two

:04:11.:04:14.

countries. Now that area has become an embryonic kalafat, led by ISIS.

:04:15.:04:24.

In an interview today, Nouri Al-Maliki said he and President

:04:25.:04:29.

Assad, both leading Shia Government, share a common enemy. TRANSLATION:

:04:30.:04:34.

Syrian jets struck an area inside the Syrian side of the border. There

:04:35.:04:37.

was no co-ordination involved, but we welcome this action. We actually

:04:38.:04:41.

welcome any Syrian strike against ISIS because this group targets both

:04:42.:04:47.

Iraq and Syria. So we welcome any Syrian strike against ISIS as we

:04:48.:04:54.

welcome any Iraqi strike against ISIS. This bakery in a predominantly

:04:55.:05:02.

Sunni district of Baghdad, prides itself on the fact it employs people

:05:03.:05:08.

across the sectarian divide. Some Sunni workers have taken fright,

:05:09.:05:13.

preferring to return to areas with ISIS rather than take their chances

:05:14.:05:19.

in Baghdad. TRANSLATION: People are detained every day, if a group of

:05:20.:05:22.

young guys is walking on the streets, they will be arrested. The

:05:23.:05:28.

security forces treat them badly, pushing and beating them. He says

:05:29.:05:32.

years of what he sees as devisive rule by Nouri Al-Maliki's Government

:05:33.:05:45.

is to blame for the current crisis. TRANSLATION: All this is happening

:05:46.:05:49.

because of the behaviour of the security force, people are treated

:05:50.:05:54.

unjustly, thousands are in prison and it keeps on happening. This

:05:55.:06:01.

sense of fear and alienation has been key to the success of ISIS,

:06:02.:06:04.

without the support of local Sunni tribes they would struggle to hold

:06:05.:06:09.

the territory they have captured, and their rapid advance towards

:06:10.:06:13.

Baghdad has prompted a show of force from the Shia community.

:06:14.:06:22.

Militia groups have been attracting thousands of new recruits. In Sadr

:06:23.:06:29.

City on Saturday the army was on parade. Followers of the cleric Sadr

:06:30.:06:37.

say they will only protect religionious shrines. Others have

:06:38.:06:40.

been directly involved in fighting againsties circumstance some receive

:06:41.:06:43.

support from Iran, not all support the Mall mal-Government. -- Nouri

:06:44.:06:52.

Al-Maliki's Government. TRANSLATION: We have our own leader, we don't

:06:53.:06:55.

follow anyone else, our leader is clear in what he says, if he says

:06:56.:07:04.

march we march, we are under the command of Al-Sadr. ISIS is a

:07:05.:07:10.

regional and international problem, Saudi rainia and Qatar and other

:07:11.:07:16.

occupying forces have allowed this group to enter Iraq through Syria.

:07:17.:07:22.

There is an air of unreality about the playground on the banks of the

:07:23.:07:30.

Tigris. Most of the children will be born after the invasion, memories of

:07:31.:07:34.

the sectarian Civil War that followed are still Treasury. The

:07:35.:07:39.

return of the militias is making many uneasy. ISIS is carving out an

:07:40.:07:43.

empire, its power now stretches all the way from the banks of the river

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Tig risks s in Iraq, west to the -- Tigris in Iraq and west. It is not

:07:52.:07:55.

clear how long it will hold this vast swathe of territory, but it is

:07:56.:08:01.

changing the geopolitical calculus. Clearly the Iraqi military needs

:08:02.:08:05.

help to defeat ISIS, the militias are part of the strategy, so is

:08:06.:08:08.

Iran, the west is still trying to figure out what to do. Meanwhile the

:08:09.:08:13.

frontiers of the Middle East are shifting and Iraq lies right across

:08:14.:08:21.

the fault line. 28 hospitals, five decade, victims

:08:22.:08:27.

of five years old and 75, the numbers speak for themselves,

:08:28.:08:33.

revealing the span and horror of the TV presenter Jimmy Savile's less

:08:34.:08:37.

public activities. A report into just one element of his behaviour,

:08:38.:08:42.

how he connived to gain access to abuse patients in the NHS was

:08:43.:08:45.

published today. You may find some of this report distressing.

:08:46.:08:54.

Decades of access to hundreds of vulnerable patients. Jimmy Savile's

:08:55.:08:58.

obsession with hospitals started in his home town of Leeds. Jane was 16

:08:59.:09:05.

when she was sent to Leeds General for tests, she was taken by the star

:09:06.:09:09.

to buy sweets, the next day he asked to see her again in the back of the

:09:10.:09:15.

hospital. It didn't drag me in, he pulled me in, he gently got hold of

:09:16.:09:19.

me, pulled me in and immediately started to kiss me. With this

:09:20.:09:26.

tongue, at the same time his hands, his left hand went on to my right

:09:27.:09:32.

thigh. I got hold of my hand and he then started to masterbate himself

:09:33.:09:38.

with my hand. I was trying to make some sense, there were three nurses

:09:39.:09:41.

on the ward when I got there, and I said you know, they looked at me and

:09:42.:09:46.

I said you never guess what's just happened and I got as far as Jimmy

:09:47.:09:50.

and they laughed and I never got a chance to say much more than that.

:09:51.:09:54.

Savile worked at the hospital radio station and then in the infirmary

:09:55.:09:58.

itself, as a porter, a fundraiser, a volunteer. He could often be found

:09:59.:10:04.

alone at night, sitting patients' beds, talking to staff. The abuse

:10:05.:10:09.

was widespread. Investigators in Leeds found 60 cases over 50 years,

:10:10.:10:14.

including three of rape. The victims were between five and 75. A

:10:15.:10:19.

ten-year-old boy was sexually assaulted while he waited on a

:10:20.:10:23.

trolley for an X-ray. Teenagers recovering from surgery were abused

:10:24.:10:26.

in their beds and there was even talk of an obsession with dead

:10:27.:10:31.

bodies. The allegations about his behaviour in the mortuary are

:10:32.:10:35.

incredibly harrowing and disturbing. What we do know is that his interest

:10:36.:10:41.

in the dead was pretty unwholesome and that the controls around access

:10:42.:10:47.

to the mortuary, up to the early 1980s were not robust. So many

:10:48.:10:55.

people say how come a showbiz punter is doing a job like this at the

:10:56.:11:02.

world number one mental hospital. By the 1980s Savile was closely

:11:03.:11:06.

connected to a very different type of hospital, Broadmoor in Berkshire

:11:07.:11:11.

housed 250 of the most disturbed psychiatric patients in the country.

:11:12.:11:15.

He started visiting in the late 1960, eventually he had his own room

:11:16.:11:18.

and was even put in charge of a task force to reform the hospital. We

:11:19.:11:23.

know now that Jimmy Savile was given his own set of keys and the run of

:11:24.:11:27.

the hospital grounds here. How then did a television star, with no

:11:28.:11:31.

medical background end up in such a position of power over so many

:11:32.:11:38.

vulnerable patients? In the early 1980s Naomi Stanley was a

:11:39.:11:43.

psychiatric nurse in Cambridge, over the period of months she gained the

:11:44.:11:46.

trust of a young patients transferred from Broadmoor, she

:11:47.:11:51.

claimed she had been raped by Savile on multiple occasions, when she

:11:52.:11:54.

tried to pass on the allegations, she claims she was ignored. Intense

:11:55.:11:59.

annoyance and irritation like I had really spoken out of turn and they

:12:00.:12:05.

looked to the male staff to get me into check. The nursing officer said

:12:06.:12:13.

to me if you ever, ever speak like that again in any kind of meeting,

:12:14.:12:18.

particularly with people who have come from outside you know you are

:12:19.:12:22.

going to be disciplined or you are going to get sacked. Today's report

:12:23.:12:29.

found 11 allegations of sexual abuse by Savile at Broadmoor, six involve

:12:30.:12:33.

patients, two staff and three children visiting. The authors say

:12:34.:12:37.

the real numbers could be far higher, given the chaotic number and

:12:38.:12:40.

vulnerable nature of the people inside. It also raises serious

:12:41.:12:44.

questions about the man running the hospital for most of the 1990s. Alan

:12:45.:12:51.

Frainey was brought into Broadmoor on the recommendation of Jimmy

:12:52.:12:55.

Savile himself. He held a mid-level position at Leeds General Hospital

:12:56.:12:57.

where he met the star and went running with him. Back then Ray

:12:58.:13:05.

Roden was the senior civil servant responsible for secure hospitals,

:13:06.:13:09.

now retired to Spain, he claims he was shocked ZAF had so much freedom

:13:10.:13:13.

and question -- Savile had so much freedom and questioned Frainey about

:13:14.:13:22.

it. When I questioned him about it I was told I failed to understand how

:13:23.:13:26.

valuable the involvement was from this high-profile celebrity. I

:13:27.:13:30.

argued it felt some what voyeuristic to me. What I didn't know at that

:13:31.:13:34.

time is he had a set of keys to the damn makes had I known I would have

:13:35.:13:38.

gone ballistic. You have been named in the report. Yes I know that and I

:13:39.:13:42.

have had advice from the Department of Health to make no comment. He was

:13:43.:13:47.

not willing to talk to the BBC today. But in statement to Newsnight

:13:48.:13:48.

this evening he said: Broadmoor, Leeds Hospital and the

:13:49.:14:16.

Health Secretary all apologised to Savile's victim today. Many say

:14:17.:14:21.

lessons still nod to be learned. We need to be more open and transparent

:14:22.:14:25.

as to what goes on within the walls of places like Broadmoor, and if

:14:26.:14:29.

there are serious allegations from patients, they should be taken

:14:30.:14:32.

seriously, because we now know that the women who would not have been

:14:33.:14:36.

believed should have been believed. They have been proven right. In

:14:37.:14:45.

2011, Jimmy Savile's body was carried past Leeds General Infirmary

:14:46.:14:48.

on the way to the City's Cathedral, thousands lined that route, three

:14:49.:14:51.

years later his fall from grace is complete. Some of his victims, at

:14:52.:14:56.

least, have finally had their say. With us now are Dr Peter Jefferies,

:14:57.:15:01.

who was an independent inspector of Broadmoor during the 80s and Esther

:15:02.:15:09.

Rantzen. The appalling nature of his behaviour is not a shock to u what

:15:10.:15:14.

is shocking today is the scale of it and the places he was involved in.

:15:15.:15:18.

The list here of more than 20 hospital, Broadmoor, Leeds, St

:15:19.:15:27.

Catherine's, Dewsbury and District, the list goes on? The nature of his

:15:28.:15:31.

crimes is still a shock. Reading what he did to vulnerable people,

:15:32.:15:34.

whatever their age, particularly the very young, and disturbed, and with

:15:35.:15:40.

mental health issues is just revolting. It is a measure of his

:15:41.:15:47.

status, his role within society at that stage. He was a sort of clown

:15:48.:15:54.

saint. He managed some how to manipulate us all to believing that

:15:55.:15:57.

he was funny, entertaining and doing an awful lot of good. And that mask

:15:58.:16:04.

was impenetrable. I met the man half-a-dozen times, I never felt I

:16:05.:16:09.

knew him, there was always a very strange creation, he created this

:16:10.:16:15.

personality. But I didn't actually see behind it the depraved, sadistic

:16:16.:16:20.

paedophile we now know existed. These were the most vulnerable

:16:21.:16:25.

people in the most vulnerable positions. Dr Jefferies two of the

:16:26.:16:30.

most astonishing cases in Leeds, and the complete absurdity of what

:16:31.:16:33.

happened at Broadmoor. You were acting as an independent inspector

:16:34.:16:38.

during that period, going in and out every six weeks. You were there and

:16:39.:16:41.

part of it, how on earth was he allowed to have that kind of access

:16:42.:16:47.

to that kind of place? I don't know how he was allowed access, but it

:16:48.:16:51.

was in an era, it was a closed institution. There were abuses of

:16:52.:16:57.

patients by the existing staff and doctors in some case, patients were

:16:58.:17:02.

not being treated with consent, not being complied with the law. And

:17:03.:17:06.

reports by the inspectorate that I was part of regularly, in writing to

:17:07.:17:11.

the hospital and the Department of Health were ignored. For years. But

:17:12.:17:16.

who thought that part of the solution would be to get a BBC DJ

:17:17.:17:26.

with no medical qualification or background to help sort it out. Who

:17:27.:17:29.

thought that was a good idea? The report today both confirms the

:17:30.:17:33.

closed institutional problem but also draws attention to the senior

:17:34.:17:38.

civil servants who suggested Savile's name both to be on the

:17:39.:17:43.

board initially and then to be part of the task force. If you were one

:17:44.:17:47.

of the people inspecting it, surely there should have been some

:17:48.:17:49.

discussion or monitoring of who was coming in and out? The access issue

:17:50.:17:56.

was unbelievable and the report today confirms the totally

:17:57.:18:02.

unsatisfactory nature, but to give Savile responsibility for management

:18:03.:18:06.

of the hospital, someone who had no previous experience and skills, is

:18:07.:18:12.

unbelievable and it meant that apart from his abuse of vulnerable people,

:18:13.:18:17.

it was no way to sort out the problems of institutions that needed

:18:18.:18:22.

sorting. Could you believe what happened at Broadmoor? The other

:18:23.:18:27.

terrible thing is that none of these allegations, none of them, were put

:18:28.:18:31.

to him during his lifetime. He didn't have to face any of these

:18:32.:18:35.

extraordinary tragic stories. But people did try to raise the alarm,

:18:36.:18:39.

as we heard in that film? The trouble is that under our current

:18:40.:18:43.

judicial system, what happens is that you have the evidence of the

:18:44.:18:47.

victims, or the survivor, and then you have got this adversarial

:18:48.:18:52.

system, whereby the defence tries to undermine, confuse, make nonsense of

:18:53.:18:56.

the allegations, and that means if you have got someone with mental

:18:57.:19:00.

health issues, or you have got a very young child, or you have got a

:19:01.:19:04.

child in a children's home, the police will look at that or the

:19:05.:19:10.

investigators look at that and think they haven't got a chance in hell of

:19:11.:19:14.

having their story believed by a jury and it never gets any further.

:19:15.:19:18.

That still happens. Witnesses are still being put up against

:19:19.:19:22.

cross-examination designed to undermine their credibility in an

:19:23.:19:26.

adversarial system that still makes it very, very difficult to bring

:19:27.:19:30.

cases. One group that represents abuse victims believes it could

:19:31.:19:33.

still happen today. Briefly to both of you, do you think it could still

:19:34.:19:40.

happen today? I think we are aware now that being a celebrity is not

:19:41.:19:43.

the same as being a saint. I personally would be quite sorry if

:19:44.:19:47.

stars weren't able to have access, for example, to terminally ill

:19:48.:19:51.

children in a ward for whom it means a lot. Although I have been to

:19:52.:19:55.

hospitals and hospice, never alone, it is never a one-to-one thing, it

:19:56.:19:59.

never happens behind closed doors and nobody has ever given me the

:20:00.:20:03.

key, thank the Lord. Do you believe in the kinds of settings that this

:20:04.:20:09.

kind of access can happen again? I don't think this kind of access

:20:10.:20:12.

could happen again. Individual access and abuse of vulnerable

:20:13.:20:15.

children, adults and mentally ill children will continue, and we need

:20:16.:20:19.

inspection regimes and management that challenges it and prevents it.

:20:20.:20:24.

Very briefly do you think currently have the regimes and are they strong

:20:25.:20:27.

enough? They are stronger than they were, not yet strong enough.

:20:28.:20:32.

Now, EastEnders, Radio 3, Newsnight, of course, website, natural history

:20:33.:20:37.

programmes and even the Great British Bake Off, if you are into

:20:38.:20:40.

that sort of thing. There is a very long list of what your ?15. 50

:20:41.:20:47.

license fee pays for, what might surprise you is also on that list.

:20:48.:20:49.

An information monitoring service that does work for the Government

:20:50.:20:53.

Intelligence Service, including providing information that most BBC

:20:54.:20:57.

journalists cannot see. BBC Monitoring has existed for decades,

:20:58.:21:02.

but last year the Government stopped paying for it, leaving to you pick

:21:03.:21:06.

up the bill, and now Newsnight has learned BBC bosses fear that is

:21:07.:21:16.

compromising the corporation's independence.

:21:17.:21:23.

It is perhaps the BBC's grandest outpost. Staff here just outside

:21:24.:21:29.

Reading monitor the broadcasts of foreign radio stations. They also

:21:30.:21:34.

translate and analyse printed media and on-line material from around the

:21:35.:21:39.

world. The vast majority of that material is available to all BBC

:21:40.:21:44.

journalist, I have used it myself for many years. This is one of the

:21:45.:21:51.

BBC's least known locations, buried deep in the Berkshire countryside,

:21:52.:21:55.

it looks like a magnificent country home, but you don't have to wander

:21:56.:22:02.

very far in the grounds here in the parkland that surrounds the house to

:22:03.:22:06.

realise that there is something less stately and less gentile going on.

:22:07.:22:17.

An ancient mansion in a Pastoral session. With its landscaped acres,

:22:18.:22:24.

a worldwide listening post. It has been going on for decades. The

:22:25.:22:32.

Soviet Union by its action in illegally invading... . The

:22:33.:22:36.

Government used to pay for all this, but last year BBC's Monitoring ?28

:22:37.:22:43.

million budget switched to license fee funding.

:22:44.:22:49.

But there is still a close relationship with Government. An

:22:50.:22:55.

official document defining the functions of the building describes

:22:56.:22:59.

some Government ministries and intelligence agencies as key

:23:00.:23:02.

customers of BBC Monitoring. The Government still funds some work at

:23:03.:23:09.

the building, such as monitoring Jihadi websites and forums, and the

:23:10.:23:16.

Government can commission and pay staff to produce material for them.

:23:17.:23:22.

Some of BBC Monitoring's output is marked "for official use only, not

:23:23.:23:25.

for broadcast". It raises the question why is a part of the BBC,

:23:26.:23:30.

some of whose staff are vetted by the Government, doing work for the

:23:31.:23:35.

intelligence agencies? This Government is trying to divest

:23:36.:23:40.

itself of a whole number of functions, if Cavan if they are

:23:41.:23:46.

going to do this on behalf of the Government let's throw open the

:23:47.:23:49.

windows and understand what they are doing, why they are doing it and

:23:50.:23:55.

what impact it has on the BBC's core purpose of public service

:23:56.:24:00.

broadcasting? Now Newsnight has learned that at the highest levels

:24:01.:24:04.

of the BBC there is concern about whether some of the work being done

:24:05.:24:08.

is unsuitable for a public broadcaster. I understand that as

:24:09.:24:12.

part of the charter renewal process, the corporation is seeking to hand

:24:13.:24:17.

over responsibility for the parts of monitoring that are what one source

:24:18.:24:21.

described as inappropriate for the BBC. BBC monitoring insists it only

:24:22.:24:30.

uses publicly available so called open sources, and that it is not

:24:31.:24:33.

gathering intelligence. It says it does look at some password-protected

:24:34.:24:39.

Jihadi forum, but only on occasions when the password protection has

:24:40.:24:45.

been lifted. . Internal e-mails obtained by Newsnight shed light on

:24:46.:24:50.

the relationship between BBC Monitoring and the Government. This

:24:51.:24:58.

is an e-mail from someone described as the MoD account manager. It shows

:24:59.:25:02.

the sort of information that BBC Monitoring is being asked to find.

:25:03.:25:08.

In this case material on a money transfer network believed to be

:25:09.:25:10.

involved in funding and supplying weapons to the Taliban. And this is

:25:11.:25:16.

how the BBC press office explained monitoring's relationship with the

:25:17.:25:18.

intelligence agencies. The BBC has also told Newsnight that

:25:19.:25:41.

the customers, including the Government and intelligence

:25:42.:25:45.

agencies, not only commission work, but also control whether the

:25:46.:25:50.

material they pay for is shared with BBC News journalists, and if so,

:25:51.:25:56.

which ones. The BBC says that while most of Monitoring's material is

:25:57.:26:00.

distributed widely within the BBC, some of the reports it produce, such

:26:01.:26:06.

as those on Jihadi websites can be seen by only a handful of designated

:26:07.:26:11.

journalists. A small number of reports commissioned by clients are

:26:12.:26:15.

not available to any BBC News journalists. A former BBC executive,

:26:16.:26:22.

who had responsibility for BBC Monitoring says such restrictions on

:26:23.:26:26.

the circulation of material produced by BBC staff are unacceptable. When

:26:27.:26:32.

what you are doing is to provide material to Government sources only,

:26:33.:26:36.

and not to anybody else, then I think that you are deviating from

:26:37.:26:41.

the principles of journalism. I think that is very, very worrying.

:26:42.:26:44.

It is not only worrying, actually, it is extremely dangerous, and I

:26:45.:26:49.

think it should not be done and is not consistent with the principles

:26:50.:26:54.

of BBC journalism and certainly the BBC's world standing in integrity.

:26:55.:26:58.

There are lots of restrictions on movements around this building,

:26:59.:27:02.

downstairs there are BBC staff working in operational areas where

:27:03.:27:07.

we have been told we can film, but I can't be filmed in those areas. And

:27:08.:27:13.

then there is the activity upstairs. There, there are Americans working

:27:14.:27:17.

for an organisation called the Open Source Centre, some of whose staff

:27:18.:27:22.

is recruited by the CIA, and that area is totally off limits. The

:27:23.:27:32.

reciprocal relationship with the Americans goes right back to the

:27:33.:27:36.

Second World War. It has been a sort of open secret. The Americans gather

:27:37.:27:40.

open source material from some parts of the world, and the BBC covers

:27:41.:27:44.

other parts. They then share most of the material. But with BBC

:27:45.:27:50.

Monitoring, now license fee-funded, the partnership with the Americans

:27:51.:27:56.

looks increasing an axe nestic. As for the -- anachronistic. As for the

:27:57.:28:04.

American material it is more tightly controlled than the BBC documents.

:28:05.:28:10.

While I'm told it may be able to get original documents it can't

:28:11.:28:14.

guarantee doing so. It would seem to make sense some of the activities

:28:15.:28:18.

done here to be done by the Government, such as GCHQ, but at the

:28:19.:28:23.

moment it remains the case that some of the material produced here by BBC

:28:24.:28:27.

staff can be seen by Government officials and not seen by

:28:28.:28:32.

journalists in the rest of the BBC. Earlier I spoke to the BBC's

:28:33.:28:40.

director of strategy and digital. We have, and it is a well established

:28:41.:28:44.

tradition in the country that the BBC is independent of Government. It

:28:45.:28:47.

was you that said that, that's vital isn't it? It is absolutely vital we

:28:48.:28:51.

remain independent from Government and we try to protect that the whole

:28:52.:28:56.

time. What we saw in the report was evidence that BBC staff have

:28:57.:29:01.

effectively been acting as sub--contractors for the

:29:02.:29:04.

intelligence agencies. How can that be appropriate, how can that match

:29:05.:29:10.

up at all with that aspiration, that dedication to independence? Let's

:29:11.:29:12.

look at the facts of what they are doing. This is all publicly

:29:13.:29:17.

available information, we declare exactly the fact we are doing it

:29:18.:29:20.

with the intelligence agencies and a range of other people, with the big

:29:21.:29:24.

global news agencies, some of our best universities, companies, and

:29:25.:29:27.

what we are doing is going through publicly available information and

:29:28.:29:30.

providing a cuttings and analysis service. Why does the Government

:29:31.:29:33.

then restrict some of the information to a tiny handful of BBC

:29:34.:29:38.

journalists, if it is all just out there any way? The vast majority of

:29:39.:29:42.

the information is just directly available, Newsnight uses it a lot

:29:43.:29:47.

of the time. They were uncouraged as part of the last license fee deal to

:29:48.:29:50.

go and get more commercial revenue. You are one of the people

:29:51.:29:53.

commissioning a report, you could have said we won't shape any of.

:29:54.:29:57.

That we have tried to find an arrangement so all the insight is

:29:58.:30:01.

available to BBC journalism, and it is, to the audiences watching this

:30:02.:30:05.

evening. If you could see the questions they were asking, that

:30:06.:30:07.

might undermine their ability. Some of it is not available, you admit

:30:08.:30:11.

that? All the insight and information is available, the

:30:12.:30:15.

questions aren't always. If Panorama were pursuing a story you wouldn't

:30:16.:30:18.

know the questions they are asking, that is exactly what we do, so they

:30:19.:30:22.

ask and get these commercial reports. So it is the reports that

:30:23.:30:26.

are not available. It is not just the questions, not all of the

:30:27.:30:32.

reports that are produced there are made available? The information on

:30:33.:30:37.

the inside is all available for BBC journalists. Not the reports? We are

:30:38.:30:40.

looking at that, charter is coming up, we are setting up a working

:30:41.:30:44.

group for the Trust with Monitoring to go through all of these things.

:30:45.:30:46.

There are issues in the report that can all be looked at. What this

:30:47.:30:52.

suggests though is at very senior levels of the BBC there is a view

:30:53.:30:57.

that up until now it has been OK for the Government to decide which BBC

:30:58.:31:01.

journalists get to see information that has been commission bid the

:31:02.:31:04.

intelligence agencies and with links to the CIA, and in some cases to

:31:05.:31:11.

decade that no BBC journalists are allowed to see any of that

:31:12.:31:14.

information at all, and that's OK? The new management can team came in

:31:15.:31:18.

and we asked ourselves a lot of questions, that is why we looked at

:31:19.:31:22.

this last year. There is very good answers, as your report showed, to

:31:23.:31:26.

the vast majority of the questions. If anything needs to change in the

:31:27.:31:30.

charter review and in the short-term we are happy to look at it. As

:31:31.:31:34.

things stand now, to be clear, you believe that all of the information

:31:35.:31:38.

should be shared with any staff that want to see it? As things stand, if

:31:39.:31:43.

I wanted to see information from a Jihadi website, for example, that

:31:44.:31:48.

was gathered from Monitoring, as a BBC journalist I wouldn't be

:31:49.:31:50.

allowed? It is a point of default. It is a point of principle? The

:31:51.:31:55.

insight and analysis is all available to the BBC journalists.

:31:56.:32:00.

When people commission a report they can say that you can't share the

:32:01.:32:05.

insight. But it is you can see it and you can't see the questions. You

:32:06.:32:10.

we could work on a commission basis and make it available for all. We

:32:11.:32:15.

are looking at putting more on the website. What do you think license

:32:16.:32:19.

fee payers watching right now, having clicked on the website today

:32:20.:32:22.

and listened to the radio through the day what do you think they would

:32:23.:32:28.

think of some of their ?145. 50 being used to fund an organisation

:32:29.:32:32.

that has associations with the CIA? So, I would say to them, look at our

:32:33.:32:37.

Syria coverage, amazing coverage, which has been vitally informed by

:32:38.:32:41.

the work of BBC Monitoring. We wouldn't be able to do it without

:32:42.:32:45.

them. We couldn't afford to do this if it was just for BBC News, we

:32:46.:32:49.

wouldn't be able to do this. What about some of the evidence we saw in

:32:50.:32:55.

that film, the request for specific information about a Jihadi network,

:32:56.:32:58.

that is not exactly the kind of thing that you get just from looking

:32:59.:33:02.

up on the web what was on the newspaper yesterday, looking at

:33:03.:33:05.

cuttings, it is not the same thing? That is exactly the kind of

:33:06.:33:08.

information that has been vital in our serial reporting n Iraq, ISIS,

:33:09.:33:12.

Ukraine. There is a real benefit. Was it available to every single BBC

:33:13.:33:17.

journalist? All the insight is available to the BBC journalists and

:33:18.:33:21.

making a difference to audiences day in day out. We are happy to have a

:33:22.:33:26.

look at this in the next period up to charter review, to see if we can

:33:27.:33:30.

make it more transparent, and throw the windows open even more. Should

:33:31.:33:33.

it be part of the conversation that the BBC just stops doing this kind

:33:34.:33:37.

of work for the Government all together, wouldn't that be better?

:33:38.:33:40.

This is an historic accident that we have done this. But actually you get

:33:41.:33:45.

a huge amount of value as a BBC journalist and audience from the

:33:46.:33:49.

fact it is here. You can change the arrangement. Now it is paid for by

:33:50.:33:53.

the license fee? Could you change the arrangements but you could lose

:33:54.:33:56.

the ability to monitor all the sources. Would it be OK if it is

:33:57.:34:02.

fine for the Intelligence Services to request, commission reports from

:34:03.:34:05.

the BBC, would it be OK for them to commission a report from Newsnight,

:34:06.:34:09.

from other parts of the BBC for the Today Programme, that is the kind of

:34:10.:34:13.

relationship you are talking about and defending? This is all put out

:34:14.:34:17.

on the BBC Trust website and put under clear rules and they provide

:34:18.:34:21.

that to a wide range of people, to news agencies, businesses,

:34:22.:34:27.

newspapers. We are happy to look at widing reening that. -- widening

:34:28.:34:31.

that. You were the Culture Secretary for quite some time, when you were

:34:32.:34:36.

Culture Secretary, would you have been happy for the funding of

:34:37.:34:41.

Monitoring to move from the Government into the license fee, so

:34:42.:34:47.

that our viewers, radio listener, website users, were paying for this

:34:48.:34:50.

kind of work to take place. Would you have been happy with that? I'm

:34:51.:34:54.

not the Culture Secretary any more, I work for the BBC, a deal was done

:34:55.:34:57.

for five years for the charter period, we won't renege on that. We

:34:58.:35:02.

will work with Government to look at how BBC Monitoring can thrive in the

:35:03.:35:05.

future and what the right arrangements are for the next

:35:06.:35:09.

charter period. Now, what happens if you vow to fight something to the

:35:10.:35:13.

end, then it ends badly. David Cameron is probably about to find

:35:14.:35:17.

out. When the candidate he demorse becomes, as expected, the new

:35:18.:35:21.

President of the European Commission. That is despite his

:35:22.:35:26.

objections. And concerns over Jean-Claude Juncker's drinking

:35:27.:35:48.

splashed on the front page of tomorrow's Telegraphof tomorrow's

:35:49.:35:51.

Telegraph. It does looks a if he's going to hit defeat. This time he

:35:52.:35:57.

doesn't have a veto, this will be subject to majority voting and the

:35:58.:36:02.

cards are stacked against him. Only a change of heart by Germany or a

:36:03.:36:08.

decision by France, if you like, to remove a prohibition on Christine

:36:09.:36:14.

LaGarde stepping in to Jean-Claude Juncker's place could change this.

:36:15.:36:18.

Both things look unlikely, it does seem the UK will find itself alone

:36:19.:36:21.

when the leaders convene tomorrow. Thank you. Earlier I spoke to Jack

:36:22.:36:27.

Straw, the former Foreign Secretary, and no stranger to these sorts of

:36:28.:36:31.

deals. I put it to him that David Cameron is perfectly entitled to try

:36:32.:36:36.

to block Juncker? He's well within his rights and indeed Ed Miliband

:36:37.:36:41.

and Douglas Alexander have said on behalf of the Labour Party they

:36:42.:36:47.

don't think that Juncker is the aproper rate candidate --

:36:48.:36:51.

appropriate candidate. My criticism of David Cameron is not about that,

:36:52.:36:56.

but his dreadful tactics. He has gone about this in a way that was

:36:57.:37:00.

almost calculated to ensure he was going to lose, although I'm sure he

:37:01.:37:04.

wanted to win. Particularly by going as a former, very distinguished and

:37:05.:37:13.

very guileful British diplomat John Kerr has comment tated today, he

:37:14.:37:17.

went for the man and not the ball. And that's fine if nobody noticeds,

:37:18.:37:22.

but if they do it is -- notices, but if they do it is dreadful. David

:37:23.:37:27.

Cameron has tried to make the case in public, and right across the

:37:28.:37:30.

public the European elections suggested very heavily this is what

:37:31.:37:35.

publics across the continent wanted. Is it right to make the case so

:37:36.:37:40.

publicly? It is right to make the case, but it is what you want out of

:37:41.:37:45.

it. People criticise Tony Blair, but I have seen him operating when we

:37:46.:37:51.

correctly decided that the Prime Minister of Belgium was ppropriate

:37:52.:38:01.

as a federalist, and almost nowhere Governments conjured up Barroso and

:38:02.:38:07.

he has been relatively successful. But the back channels and doing it

:38:08.:38:11.

behind closed doors is not very democratic. Isn't that the problem

:38:12.:38:15.

the EU, people think it is completely remote? It is remote, it

:38:16.:38:19.

is just the way of the world. The issue here was not whether Mr

:38:20.:38:26.

Juncker was more or less better than the alternative candidates, but what

:38:27.:38:32.

he stood for, his set of values and record. That is what Mr Cameron

:38:33.:38:35.

should have talked about, the fact that we need a different leader in

:38:36.:38:40.

Europe to make the change that everybody is saying we need. In a

:38:41.:38:44.

nutshell, less Europe, but better Europe. I think everybody believes

:38:45.:38:50.

that we are not going to get it from Jean-Claude Juncker. Juncker will be

:38:51.:38:53.

the next European Commission President? I'm pretty convinced he

:38:54.:38:59.

will. The truth is Mr Cameron could have come away from this summit with

:39:00.:39:04.

a success, or be on the road to success, instead he has come back

:39:05.:39:09.

with a failure. Talking about persuasion, you were the man who on

:39:10.:39:12.

the behalf of the UK made the case at the UN for the war in Iraq. Now

:39:13.:39:19.

you see the turmoil of recent week, Syria bombing the borders today, do

:39:20.:39:23.

you feel any responsibility for that? Of course I feel a sense of

:39:24.:39:28.

responsibility. I feel a sense of responsibility every day and I think

:39:29.:39:33.

anybody would. Those huge events in 2003, the invasion, has had some

:39:34.:39:37.

effect. What we don't know what effect that has had, nor do we know

:39:38.:39:41.

what would have happened in Iraq except that I think it would have

:39:42.:39:44.

been pretty awful, had we not removed Saddam. And the frustration

:39:45.:39:50.

is that after the surge, the American-led surge in 2006/7, there

:39:51.:39:54.

was a period of relative stability, a real opportunity to bring the Shia

:39:55.:40:00.

and the Sunni and the Kurds together for a period. It looked as though

:40:01.:40:03.

that could be achieved, but sadly it has gone the other way. Do you agree

:40:04.:40:08.

with Tony Blair that there should be targeted and effective, his phrase,

:40:09.:40:12.

intervention in Iraq, western intervention? I don't think I take

:40:13.:40:17.

that view in quite the terms that Tony talks about it. I'm much more

:40:18.:40:25.

sceptical about the value of, for example, drone attacks. They might

:40:26.:40:28.

work, and it is a matter for the Iraqi Government, principally. But

:40:29.:40:33.

in Afghanistan drone attacks have not been as forensic as people were

:40:34.:40:39.

suggesting and you often end up with a lot of innocent people being

:40:40.:40:44.

killed. Peter Mandelson told Newsnight last week that going into

:40:45.:40:48.

Iraq was a mistake, honestly made but still a mistake, is your

:40:49.:40:53.

reflection like that? I put it slightly differently, I have

:40:54.:40:56.

explained why I made the decisions I made, for which I take full

:40:57.:41:03.

responsibility. They were right at the time, but had we known then what

:41:04.:41:08.

we know subsequently, which was for the whole basis of the military

:41:09.:41:12.

action, which was the threat from weapons of mass destruction, was not

:41:13.:41:15.

well founded. There would have been no case whatever for entering into

:41:16.:41:19.

the war. So it was a mistake? In retrospect, yes. What I'm also

:41:20.:41:26.

seeking to do is not evade or avoid my responsibility, having made that

:41:27.:41:34.

decision at the time. Take a look at this, an American President watching

:41:35.:41:43.

the football on TV on air force 1. Air Force One. America didn't beat

:41:44.:41:49.

Germany tonight, no doubt Obama was devastated, but they are through to

:41:50.:41:52.

the next round of the World Cup, unlike others I won't mention.

:41:53.:41:56.

Joining us now from Florida is Rodney Mash, the former England

:41:57.:42:02.

striker who left in the 1970s to ploy his trade there. And we have

:42:03.:42:18.

Mark Fisher not so keen. You were there when football was virtually

:42:19.:42:22.

discovered, and it is catching on now today? Today America was mental,

:42:23.:42:27.

every television story news was about America, it has just got

:42:28.:42:31.

bigger and bigger and bigger. It is, at the moment, at least, it is the

:42:32.:42:36.

biggest thing in town. Mark, the biggest thing in down? I don't know

:42:37.:42:41.

where Rodney is tonight, but I can say that it is certainly not the

:42:42.:42:45.

biggest thing throughout the United States. I was talking to people in

:42:46.:42:50.

Kansas, Nebraska and Colorado, they had no idea this was going on. Do

:42:51.:42:54.

you think you have seen over time actually people starting to see

:42:55.:42:57.

soccer as being a more popular sport. More people watch the

:42:58.:43:02.

Portugal match than the NBA final last week? That's right. But talking

:43:03.:43:14.

about Kansas and Nebraska I don't think anybody cares what happens in

:43:15.:43:17.

those states any way. As far as soccer in America is concerned, Mark

:43:18.:43:20.

is completely wrong when he said that, I will tell you why. After the

:43:21.:43:25.

England Portugal game, the New York Times first four pages of the sports

:43:26.:43:32.

section, the first full four pages were all USA soccer. It is enormous

:43:33.:43:36.

here now. Is it just the Washington Post that is missing out then?

:43:37.:43:43.

Rodney is hitting it right on the head. The Washington Post is

:43:44.:43:48.

covering the heck out of this as is the New York Times, this is very

:43:49.:43:51.

much an elite play in the United States. This is the elite trying to

:43:52.:43:54.

force down the throats of the Americans a game, it is the same

:43:55.:43:59.

people who have been yappering on about the metric system for decades

:44:00.:44:03.

and telling us for half a century that soccer was about to happen in

:44:04.:44:08.

the United States. None of it is true, there is an elite people

:44:09.:44:12.

interested and there is a cachet, and you see it in the New York

:44:13.:44:17.

Times. Forestieri many it remains a dull, boring sport and doesn't hold

:44:18.:44:21.

a candle to the sports we have. It is unclear why the rest of the world

:44:22.:44:25.

wants the United States to become a soccer country, we have sports of

:44:26.:44:28.

our own, every country should have. It is not a sleight against soccer

:44:29.:44:34.

it is just not a sport for American Americans, it is not a sport that

:44:35.:44:39.

fits in with our way of life. If you say football is dull and boring to

:44:40.:44:43.

watch, if you go to an American football or baseball match it goes

:44:44.:44:48.

on for hours. It is either freezing in the world in the winter or

:44:49.:44:51.

sunburn in the summer, surely 90 minutes of fast-paced World Cup

:44:52.:44:55.

action is a bit more interesting than that? Well, Americans tend to

:44:56.:45:00.

watch sports on television and anyone would admit that soccer is

:45:01.:45:04.

not a television sport, the field is too wide, it is very difficult to

:45:05.:45:08.

see the players in any detail. You don't form a bond or identity with

:45:09.:45:13.

the personalities on the field. And the ball is on television tiny, it

:45:14.:45:16.

is very difficult to follow on television and it is continuous

:45:17.:45:22.

action which violate a basic rule of American sport, we just have

:45:23.:45:27.

frequent bathroom breaks and frequent breaks to get a cold one.

:45:28.:45:32.

You have a good sense of humour and it may mean that your entire career

:45:33.:45:36.

to get America to love soccer has failed? Let me make a comparison to

:45:37.:45:42.

American sports and soccer, he just said that the pitch is too big, and

:45:43.:45:48.

the field is too big and the ball is too small. Mark have you ever tried

:45:49.:45:54.

to watch ice hockey on television. You can play for four hours and not

:45:55.:45:58.

see the puck, the puck is this big you can't see it, it travels at 100

:45:59.:46:03.

miles an hour and you can't see the puck, and you watch it for four

:46:04.:46:07.

hours, are you kidding me. Do you think the World Cup is actually a

:46:08.:46:10.

moment where Americans will take football to their hearts, genuinely,

:46:11.:46:14.

or is it just the surprise that they have got through to the next round?

:46:15.:46:22.

I have seen over the 25/30 years, since I have been here, the growth

:46:23.:46:26.

of the sport. There are so many young kids playing. Millions and

:46:27.:46:30.

millions of kids. The women's league is big, the women's national team is

:46:31.:46:34.

fantastic, there is a lot of girls playing. There is a lot of kids

:46:35.:46:38.

playing, it is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And God forbid,

:46:39.:46:43.

listen to me, if the United States should wind the World Cup you will

:46:44.:46:47.

go mad. We must leave it there I'm afraid. Just before we go, America

:46:48.:46:51.

may have lost tonight, but they are going through, and fans will have

:46:52.:46:54.

been cheered to find out about the arrival in Brazil of their team's

:46:55.:47:01.

new secret weapon. Allegedly Will Ferrell introduced himself yesterday

:47:02.:47:08.

at USA fan HQ I'm honoured to be playing tomorrow. I'm not going to

:47:09.:47:22.

lie to you, I'm not in the best shape. If the game gets close I will

:47:23.:47:34.

bite, I bite the opponent! I'm going to bite every player if I have to.

:47:35.:47:42.

A chilly night across Scotland, a fresh start here. Elsewhere a warmer

:47:43.:47:52.

night, not as cold in the morning, but a grey start for England Wales

:47:53.:47:56.

and Northern Ireland. We are keeping our eye on clumps of heavy,

:47:57.:48:00.

potentially thundery downpours developing particularly

:48:01.:48:02.

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