30/06/2014 Newsnight


30/06/2014

How will Israel respond after kidnapped teens are found dead? Rolf Harris, undercover inside Al Qaeda, Len McCluskey, and the lost art of conversation. With Laura Kuenssberg.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 30/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

The can he kidnapped Israeli teenagers are found dead, in a pit

:00:00.:00:12.

on the West Bank. Hamas is getting the blame. And if history is a

:00:13.:00:16.

guide, the Israeli response will be emotional, but could it also be

:00:17.:00:20.

disproportionate. We hear from the Israelis and Palestinians. Also

:00:21.:00:29.

tonight: # Your run own body

:00:30.:00:33.

# Let me run mine Another well-loved children's

:00:34.:00:37.

entertainer turns out to be a predatory hypocrite. Rofl Harris is

:00:38.:00:41.

found guilty of sexually assaulting children. We asked would we notice

:00:42.:00:46.

the same crimes today? The first UK TV interview with the

:00:47.:00:51.

western intelligence agent who says he infiltrated Al-Qaeda. If I made a

:00:52.:00:57.

mistake talking in my sleep or anything, I would have been exposed

:00:58.:01:01.

and I would have ended up being crucified.

:01:02.:01:13.

Hamas will pay, the Israeli Government is already promising

:01:14.:01:16.

fierce punishment for the deaths of three teenage Jewish settler, found

:01:17.:01:20.

dead, hidden under rocks in a field near Hebron in the West Bank. Let's

:01:21.:01:26.

go straight there tonight and get the latest from the Middle East

:01:27.:01:30.

correspondent. What is happening where you are? I'm close to the

:01:31.:01:35.

field where that grim discovery was made late this afternoon of the

:01:36.:01:39.

three dead Israeli teenagers. There was an Israeli search party that had

:01:40.:01:44.

been looking in this area, which is just outside of Hebron. Here we're

:01:45.:01:50.

only a ten-minute drive from that busy hitch hiking junction which is

:01:51.:01:54.

where the three young Israelis were last seen alive. It is thought they

:01:55.:01:58.

were trying to get a ride home for the weekend when they disappeared.

:01:59.:02:02.

Now the Israeli security cabinet is still meeting tonight to try to

:02:03.:02:06.

decide on its response to all of this. But already it has been made

:02:07.:02:11.

very clear Israel has said consistently that it believes Hamas

:02:12.:02:16.

was responsible for what happened to these teenagers. We have had those

:02:17.:02:20.

strong remarks from the Israeli Prime Minister saying Hamas is to

:02:21.:02:27.

blame, Hamas will pay. Now the Hamas spokesman in Gaza also told the BBC

:02:28.:02:32.

that any attempt to attack the Islamist group would, he said, open

:02:33.:02:38.

the gates of hell. And I should say the Israeli military operation to

:02:39.:02:41.

try to find these teenagers has really targeted Hamas as well over

:02:42.:02:45.

the past two-and-a-ha weeks. There have been more than 400 Palestinians

:02:46.:02:49.

who have been arrested, most of them are members of Hamas. And what

:02:50.:02:54.

evidence is there for that Israeli charge that Hamas is responsible?

:02:55.:03:02.

Well, interestingly the Hamas leader gave an interview last week, in

:03:03.:03:07.

which he said that Hamas had no information on the missing

:03:08.:03:11.

teenagers, although he did praise anyone who might have carried out

:03:12.:03:15.

their kidnapping. When we have put this question to the Israeli

:03:16.:03:21.

military he said this is the modus operandi of Hamas, they claim Hamas

:03:22.:03:27.

has tried to carry out abductions dozens of time in the West Bank over

:03:28.:03:31.

the past year. And a reminder that Hamas was responsible for the

:03:32.:03:35.

capture of the Israeli soldier held in Gaza for five years. But Hamas

:03:36.:03:41.

hasn't itself come out saying that it is responsible. There was also

:03:42.:03:47.

two main suspects that were named by the Israelis who had links to Hamas.

:03:48.:03:52.

Two men who came from the City of Hebron not far away. But all of this

:03:53.:03:58.

is so worrying for the Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who just signed

:03:59.:04:05.

two months ago a new political agreement with his political rivals,

:04:06.:04:10.

and they went on to set up a new unity Government, and that new unity

:04:11.:04:13.

Government is very much under pressure tonight. As ever in this

:04:14.:04:17.

conflict it is one side's vitriolic word against the other, as we have

:04:18.:04:24.

seen Israel is intent on blaming ham marks Hamas have denied

:04:25.:04:27.

responsibility. The fear tonight is this appalling event for three

:04:28.:04:31.

families could become part of a wider tragedy for the region.

:04:32.:04:36.

The front page story that has gripped Israel. And now the news the

:04:37.:04:40.

country was dreading, the three missing boys are dead. Their bodies

:04:41.:04:46.

found under a pile of rocks in a field. 19-year-old Eyal and Naftali

:04:47.:04:55.

and Gilad, all 16, all teenage seminary students. The hunt for the

:04:56.:05:00.

boys became a nationwide obsession, triggering a frantic search by

:05:01.:05:04.

Israeli forces. One of the most intensive security operations for

:05:05.:05:08.

years. Troops combed the area near Hebron in the West Bank, where the

:05:09.:05:12.

boys went missing nearly three weeks ago. Sweep s also extended to

:05:13.:05:17.

Palestinian towns and villages across the West Bank. Leading to

:05:18.:05:21.

hundreds of arrests. Including members of the Hamas militant group,

:05:22.:05:25.

the reality Government said was responsible. And then, this evening

:05:26.:05:29.

the breakthrough, which led to the bodies being found. The vicinity is

:05:30.:05:36.

now being cordoned off as Israeli forensic teams and security forces

:05:37.:05:41.

look to discover exactly what happened.

:05:42.:05:43.

Unsurprisingly there has been shock and distress from many Israelis,

:05:44.:05:47.

already groups have gathered near the scene to pray and comfort each

:05:48.:05:53.

other. The Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who already

:05:54.:06:00.

warned Hamas that a -- at a cabinet meeting today, he said the boys had

:06:01.:06:03.

been murdered in cold blood and Hamas would pay. Meanwhile the

:06:04.:06:09.

Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who has already condemned the abductions

:06:10.:06:14.

today summoned an emergency meeting of his minister. He has been under

:06:15.:06:19.

pressure from Israel to end his recent reconciliation with Hamas,

:06:20.:06:23.

that pressure has now intensified. We believe there should be an

:06:24.:06:28.

unequivocal message to the Palestinian leadership, President

:06:29.:06:32.

Abbas, you formed a act with Hamas and we believe that pact has

:06:33.:06:36.

directly led to these Merced. By allowing Hamas to re-establish its

:06:37.:06:39.

presence on the West Bank you have allowed this attack top happen. We

:06:40.:06:43.

believe that all people who oppose terrorism and believe in peace

:06:44.:06:46.

should call upon the Palestinian leadership and President Abbas to

:06:47.:06:51.

break his pact with ham marks to annul the pact. Already tensions are

:06:52.:06:57.

escalating, here Israeli-Arabs protesting at the re-arrest of

:06:58.:07:00.

hundreds of Palestinians because of the abductions. The crowd was

:07:01.:07:07.

dispersed by Israeli riot police. In other incidents five Palestinians

:07:08.:07:14.

lost their lives. There has been new violence too between Israel and

:07:15.:07:18.

Hamas, this was Israeli retaliation for an earlier Hamas rocket attack

:07:19.:07:25.

from Gaza on an Israeli factory. Ham marks which rejects Israel eights

:07:26.:07:31.

accusations that it kidnapped the boys, tonight warned that any

:07:32.:07:34.

military response by Israel would open the gates of hell. It is all a

:07:35.:07:40.

far cry from the peace deal that John Kerry hoped to reach between

:07:41.:07:45.

the Israeli and Palestinian leaders. Tonight President Obama condemned

:07:46.:07:49.

the boys' murders, but above all urged restraint on all sides. At

:07:50.:07:53.

this fraught moment that may be more of a hope than a likelihood. The

:07:54.:07:59.

Israeli ambassador to the UK joins us, what evidence does the Israeli

:08:00.:08:04.

Government have for blaming Hamas? Well obviously we don't share all

:08:05.:08:07.

our evidence publicly, particularly when the search for the two

:08:08.:08:11.

perpetrators is still under way. But a number of things are in this

:08:12.:08:18.

tragic moment very clear. Hamas is an organisation which has been

:08:19.:08:21.

calling for kidnappings. We have seen that since the beginning of

:08:22.:08:26.

last year there were over 49 attempts, mercifully most of which

:08:27.:08:31.

were frustrated, almost all but one were frustrated. We had them talking

:08:32.:08:37.

about blessed are the hands of those who perpetrated this. That is not

:08:38.:08:40.

the only attempt this murderous organisation is making to kill

:08:41.:08:45.

Israelis. We have had in the last 24 hours 16 rockets fired from Gaza on

:08:46.:08:50.

towns and villages inside Israel. On this specific case, are you

:08:51.:08:53.

satisfied that there is concrete, direct evidence that this appalling

:08:54.:08:57.

murder, these appalling three murders were carried out by Hamas?

:08:58.:09:02.

The answer is yes, we are absolutely clear, that is the basis for the

:09:03.:09:05.

investigation so far. And that is the basis for our response. What

:09:06.:09:09.

will that response be, the language already from the Israeli Government

:09:10.:09:13.

tonight has been extremely strong, very incendiary, talking about

:09:14.:09:17.

punishment, talking about vengence? I don't think it is right to call it

:09:18.:09:23.

incendiary, you are talking about three teenagers on their way home to

:09:24.:09:27.

their parents and brutally murdered in cold blood. We have had over 200

:09:28.:09:32.

missiles fired from the Gaza strip since the beginning of this year. We

:09:33.:09:36.

are talking about an organisation that doesn't dream of peace, but

:09:37.:09:40.

dreams of the brutal murder of Israelis. We need to respond to that

:09:41.:09:44.

organisation in a language it understands. At the moment Israel is

:09:45.:09:47.

threatening the eradication of Hamas, to quote one of your

:09:48.:09:51.

ministers, does it not behove the Israeli Government to have a moment

:09:52.:09:55.

of calm so the death of these three teenagers does not turn into a much

:09:56.:10:02.

wider, much more significant conflagration, with more blood being

:10:03.:10:06.

spilled? As we are sitting here the Israeli security cabinet is

:10:07.:10:11.

deliberating yours correspondent described T we are aware of concerns

:10:12.:10:15.

of escalation and proportionality and so on. But we have to bear in

:10:16.:10:19.

mind that we are dealing with an adversary that doesn't bother itself

:10:20.:10:23.

with those calculation at all. There is no symmetry. This is an

:10:24.:10:26.

organisation that raises its children to praise and emulate

:10:27.:10:30.

suicide bombers, which is firing missiles as we speak, and which has

:10:31.:10:34.

been attempting repeatedly to kidnap and murder Israelis. So any response

:10:35.:10:38.

to this would be justified in your view? As I said we are the side of

:10:39.:10:44.

this equation where tragically we grapple with these issues. It would

:10:45.:10:49.

be far easier if there was more clarity on the Palestinian side.

:10:50.:10:54.

What is so frustrating is Abu Mazin, who presents himself as a partner

:10:55.:10:58.

for peace, seems to think you can sit down being partner of peace

:10:59.:11:03.

while at the same time embracing this Hamas, terrorist organisation.

:11:04.:11:07.

Joining us from the West Bank is the leader of the secular Palestinian

:11:08.:11:11.

national initiative party. Thank you for joining us. The reality

:11:12.:11:15.

Government is entitled to retaliate are they not? No they are not. First

:11:16.:11:24.

of all I think the main person responsible for the tragic that

:11:25.:11:33.

happened is Mr Netherton -- Binyamin Netanyahu himself. He's responsible

:11:34.:11:37.

for the tragic death of more than ten minutes so far who were killed

:11:38.:11:42.

by his army, including three children. I don't think... You are

:11:43.:11:48.

suggesting these young teenagers had it coming are you? Because they were

:11:49.:11:55.

somewhere geographically? They should not have been in illegal

:11:56.:11:58.

settlements which are considered illegal by international law and a

:11:59.:12:02.

violation of international law, that is what all countries of the world

:12:03.:12:05.

are saying. And Mr Binyamin Netanyahu should have protected them

:12:06.:12:08.

and not tending them to these places. More than that he's now.

:12:09.:12:16.

Retaliating and he wants to retaliate, without even bringing a

:12:17.:12:20.

single proof that any Palestinian was responsible for their deaths.

:12:21.:12:27.

There is very strange. Are you not suggesting that any settler is fair

:12:28.:12:35.

game. President Netenyahu didn't kill these people himself? I don't

:12:36.:12:39.

like anybody to be killed, but I'm saying no security or real peace

:12:40.:12:42.

will be available either to Palestinians or Israelis, unless the

:12:43.:12:46.

Israeli military occupation is ended. Unless the system of

:12:47.:12:50.

apartheid, discrimination, and oppression of the Palestinian

:12:51.:12:54.

people, during an occupation that has become the longest in modern

:12:55.:12:59.

history, for 47 years we have been oppressed. And unless this ends, the

:13:00.:13:04.

main cause of insecurity, the main cause of suffering, which is mostly

:13:05.:13:09.

on the Palestinian side is this Israeli military occupation. Mr

:13:10.:13:15.

Netenyahu has broken the peace process before, and undermined any

:13:16.:13:18.

possibility for a two-state solution. Now he's trying to use a

:13:19.:13:23.

tragic death to escalate a new war. Can you be sure that Hamas are not

:13:24.:13:29.

behind these three deaths, are you sure of that? What I'm sure about is

:13:30.:13:33.

that Hamas has said very clearly that they are not responsible for

:13:34.:13:40.

this. No Palestinian group has declared responsibility for it. I'm

:13:41.:13:44.

sure that the Israeli Government, Mr Netenyahu and the Israeli ambassador

:13:45.:13:48.

in London, could not provide up to this moment any single proof that

:13:49.:13:51.

any Palestinian was responsible for this. But at the end of the day, the

:13:52.:13:57.

overall cause of all suffering here is the continued military occupation

:13:58.:14:00.

of Palestinian territories and the lack of peace which Israel is

:14:01.:14:04.

responsible for. You brokered the deal with Hamas to put together this

:14:05.:14:09.

new Government, which is only weeks old. How will you be telling others

:14:10.:14:13.

to respond. Hamas is already saying tonight, they are talking about

:14:14.:14:17.

opening the "gates of hell" if there is retaliation from Israel, what

:14:18.:14:24.

will you be saying? I would say that Hamas can be approached to accept

:14:25.:14:28.

nonviolent resistance, and accept this as a form. And Hamas, in my

:14:29.:14:35.

opinion can be convinced to accept a two-state solution if Israel is

:14:36.:14:39.

ready to end the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people

:14:40.:14:42.

and this apartheid, illegal system. For everybody's sake this is the

:14:43.:14:46.

best way forward. You know we have been conducting nonviolent, peaceful

:14:47.:14:50.

resistance, and the response we get from Israel is attacks and gun shots

:14:51.:14:55.

from the Israeli army which killed two very young boys, children,

:14:56.:15:00.

basically, who are 15, 16 years old, just before this incident happened.

:15:01.:15:05.

What I'm saying is there should be not double standard. All lives,

:15:06.:15:09.

Palestinian and Israelis are precious and should be observed

:15:10.:15:14.

through peace. Thank you very much. Rofl Harris

:15:15.:15:17.

said the most important thing for him was not to con public. But in

:15:18.:15:26.

fact his whole public persona was a fraud. He was a mildly irritating

:15:27.:15:32.

children's entertainment, but a man who used that status to abuse

:15:33.:15:36.

children over two decades. He was not, in the end, too famous or

:15:37.:15:41.

powerful to face justice. After years of silence his victims'

:15:42.:15:49.

stories were told and believed. An entertainer for 60 years. From

:15:50.:15:57.

children's programmes to prime time TV. From black and white to full

:15:58.:16:04.

colour. Today though Rofl Harris left court with that reputation in

:16:05.:16:09.

pieces. Guilty of a series of historic sex offence, one against a

:16:10.:16:13.

girl as young as seven. The victims in this case have suffered in

:16:14.:16:17.

silence for many years and have only recently found the courage to come

:16:18.:16:21.

forward. I would like to pay tribute to the bravery they displayed in

:16:22.:16:26.

coming to court and giving evidence. That bravery and determination has

:16:27.:16:31.

seen Rofl Harris brought to justice and held to account. 30 years ago

:16:32.:16:45.

Harrison Harris was already a veteran of Saturday night TV. I had

:16:46.:16:52.

a curious catch phrase I use at every available opportunity at that

:16:53.:16:55.

stage, I would say without thinking "I never touched her your honour"!

:16:56.:17:02.

The women central to the case said it was around this time she was

:17:03.:17:06.

first abused, on holiday, then at his home. By the early 1980s he had

:17:07.:17:16.

moved to the quiet village of Brae Berkshire, he was a family man and

:17:17.:17:19.

she a close friend of his young daughter. She told the court she was

:17:20.:17:24.

13 at the time, terrified and didn't feel she could say no. From behind

:17:25.:17:29.

the curtain she said how the abuse continued on and off for more than a

:17:30.:17:33.

decade. She said it turned her into an alcoholic. In 1997 Harris wrote

:17:34.:17:38.

this letter to her father, in it the star asks for forgiveness, saying

:17:39.:17:42.

they did had a relationship but it was consensual and didn't start

:17:43.:17:46.

until she was 18. Her family didn't believe him, nor did the jury. It

:17:47.:17:52.

was after watching the Queen's Jubilee Concert that the same woman

:17:53.:17:55.

felt she was strong enough to call the police. Saying she could never

:17:56.:18:04.

get away from that "bloody man". His arrest led to a wave of publicity

:18:05.:18:10.

and others came forward, one groped outside a community centre in

:18:11.:18:14.

Portsmouth when she was seven or eight years old. Another this

:18:15.:18:18.

celebrity sports event in Cambridge when she was 16, Harris denied

:18:19.:18:22.

visiting the city until this old footage was played in court. He put

:18:23.:18:27.

his hand on my thigh. Then there was Tonya Lee, the only one of the

:18:28.:18:33.

victims to wave her anonymity, after selling her story in Australia. She

:18:34.:18:37.

was 15 when she was sexually assaulted in a pub in East London. I

:18:38.:18:41.

wanted to scream but I didn't. I knew what he had done was wrong. I

:18:42.:18:46.

was embarrassed as well, and then I thought, I didn't want to tell

:18:47.:18:51.

anybody that he had touched me. The court heard from witnesses across

:18:52.:18:54.

the world with similar stories, from Darwin, from New Zealand, from

:18:55.:18:58.

Malta, one make-up lady said they had a nickname for him, "the

:18:59.:19:03.

octopus". Can I say how lovely you look. You smoothie. Harris's defence

:19:04.:19:11.

claimed he was just a touchy, feely sort of person, somebody who could

:19:12.:19:14.

be tactile and affectionate with men and women. In court old colleagues,

:19:15.:19:23.

like the director Dougie Squires stood up to say they hadn't seen

:19:24.:19:27.

anything inappropriate at work or anything that had crossed the line:

:19:28.:19:33.

The torture of being there for six weeks listening to some people who

:19:34.:19:36.

defended him and some people accusing him, which is right or

:19:37.:19:40.

wrong, and only he probably knows the truth. But the torture of it is

:19:41.:19:48.

a penalty in itself. That is the humility of being there is

:19:49.:19:55.

punishment in itself. What happens now, the punishment has been

:19:56.:19:58.

administered, if that is the right word. This is the most high-profile

:19:59.:20:05.

result yet for Operation Yewtree, the investigation set up after the

:20:06.:20:10.

Jimmy Savile's scandal. There no suggestion that the two offenders

:20:11.:20:15.

are connected. For years he did work closely with children and young

:20:16.:20:17.

people, even fronting a film highlighting the danger of child

:20:18.:20:23.

abuse. It is that sort of touching I want to talk about today, it helps

:20:24.:20:26.

you to understand the sort of touching that doesn't make you feel

:20:27.:20:32.

too good. Rofl Harris's wife, Alwen returned to the family home alone

:20:33.:20:37.

this evening, her husband's career over and his reputation damaged

:20:38.:20:40.

forever. Once again the questions will be asked. How did this happen

:20:41.:20:45.

so many times? For so long? Without the authorities, his employers or

:20:46.:20:51.

anyone else stopping it? With us now are the former Director of Public

:20:52.:20:59.

Prosecutions Kier Starmer, who was in charge at the CPS when they made

:21:00.:21:03.

the decision to prosecute Rofl Harris. And we have a representative

:21:04.:21:09.

from the NSPCC. It is almost impossible to believe some of that

:21:10.:21:13.

archive when you see T when you took the decision he is CPS, how

:21:14.:21:17.

confident were you that the charges would stick, given his public image

:21:18.:21:20.

and persona? I was confident in the decision, but his persona is very

:21:21.:21:25.

important. It is very difficult for victims of sexual abuse to come

:21:26.:21:29.

forward. In ordinary circumstances it is particularly difficult where

:21:30.:21:33.

there is a celebrity involved, because very often victims feel they

:21:34.:21:37.

are simply not going to be believed against someone such as Rofl Harris.

:21:38.:21:41.

It was exactly the same with Jimmy Savile, where very few victims did

:21:42.:21:46.

come forward in that case they felt they couldn't think Jimmy Savile on,

:21:47.:21:49.

or that they would be believed. That is a critical part of this whole

:21:50.:21:54.

case. What also about the difficulties of historic testimony,

:21:55.:21:58.

I mean we saw from this court case, for some of the people giving

:21:59.:22:01.

testimony they were reaching back 20, 30 years, that wasn't always

:22:02.:22:06.

straight forward. It was sometimes problematic? It is, it makes the

:22:07.:22:10.

cases much more difficult, but one thing very important in creating a

:22:11.:22:17.

better environment for people to come forward is to bust the myths,

:22:18.:22:22.

so people will come forward quickly if they have been abused. There is a

:22:23.:22:27.

myth, it was very long after the event before victims felt they could

:22:28.:22:32.

come forward. We have to recognise that is part of the way we respond

:22:33.:22:36.

to this sort of offending. It does create difficulties, but let as bust

:22:37.:22:43.

some of those myths. Operation Yewtree yielding results now for the

:22:44.:22:47.

authorities, it is an unusual spasam of prosecutions and an outpouring of

:22:48.:22:52.

looking back over the years. Do you think it will contribute to change

:22:53.:22:57.

for victims? It has already, not only with Operation Yewtree, but we

:22:58.:23:03.

have heard from the helpline service about a number of people who are not

:23:04.:23:08.

only reporting historical abuse but also what is happening now in our

:23:09.:23:13.

communities. I think there is a huge sea change both in public

:23:14.:23:18.

confidence, with police and CPS, and also with children Children's

:23:19.:23:27.

Services and being able to address these disturbing string of events

:23:28.:23:31.

occurring. I think it will encourage victims to come forward if they have

:23:32.:23:34.

concerns about what happened to them in the past by other people in

:23:35.:23:38.

authority. What kinds of numbers are you talking about, a surge of new

:23:39.:23:44.

reports coming forward? We have seen since Operation Yewtree started back

:23:45.:23:47.

in October. We are seeing on occasions a doubling or trebling of

:23:48.:23:53.

reports to our helpline service. There is a significant increase now

:23:54.:23:56.

in people coming forward and giving information about children at risk.

:23:57.:24:02.

Of course that is happening at a time when the prosecuting

:24:03.:24:04.

authorities and the police are having to do more with less

:24:05.:24:09.

resources, a doubling or trebling of people coming forward, can they cope

:24:10.:24:13.

with it? Yes they can, and there is resources to deal with it. One of

:24:14.:24:16.

the critical things that shouldn't be missed at the heart of this is

:24:17.:24:22.

anonymity. Very often victims find it difficult to come forward, but

:24:23.:24:25.

will come forward if they know there is another victim out there. Whilst

:24:26.:24:29.

everybody understands and sympathises with an innocent person

:24:30.:24:33.

who is wrongly charged with rape or some other offence, what this case

:24:34.:24:39.

shows is that anonymity would have served an injustice, because some of

:24:40.:24:42.

the victims would not have come forward. In fact, had there been

:24:43.:24:46.

anonymity, which some people argue for, which is until conviction, your

:24:47.:24:54.

headline tonight would be "it's Rofl Harris" because you wouldn't have

:24:55.:24:57.

known that until tonight. This goes to the heart of the very important

:24:58.:25:01.

debate about anonymity. We are still getting people coming forward and

:25:02.:25:04.

giving us information about Rofl Harris as well. Even tonight? I

:25:05.:25:09.

think it is really important that if we remove anonymity in some of these

:25:10.:25:16.

case, and it should be judged on a case-by-case basis, it gives you a

:25:17.:25:20.

greater degree of confidence for people to come forward and provide

:25:21.:25:22.

valuable information for the investigation. Very briefly, do you

:25:23.:25:29.

think there is a danger that with Operation Yewtree that such a huge

:25:30.:25:34.

phenomenon, is it a danger that we will focus on it so much that in the

:25:35.:25:37.

end we will think we have dealt with this problem and it is all in the

:25:38.:25:41.

past? No, what it does is remind organisations that what you have to

:25:42.:25:45.

have in place is very robust reporting procedures and also a

:25:46.:25:48.

culture that allows people to speak out. There has to be a cultural

:25:49.:25:52.

shift, we are in the foot hills, a huge amount to do, a step forward

:25:53.:25:58.

but let not anybody think we are where we need to be on this.

:25:59.:26:06.

If it were a Hollywood blockbuster you wouldn't believe it, a member of

:26:07.:26:10.

a biker gang becomes a Muslim and makes friends with some of the

:26:11.:26:15.

biggest extremist, then he last has a change of heart, and gets in touch

:26:16.:26:21.

with Security Services and infiltrates Al-Qaeda. It is a true

:26:22.:26:25.

story, but it doesn't have a happy ending.

:26:26.:26:38.

This is Morton Storm in 2005, the Danish extremist protesting in

:26:39.:26:43.

London. This is his image eight years later, his image pinned on the

:26:44.:26:48.

wall, extremists want to kill him for betraying Al-Qaeda. If I went to

:26:49.:26:53.

sleep and talked in my sleep I would have been exposed and ended up being

:26:54.:26:58.

crucified. His account of seven years under cover for western

:26:59.:27:02.

intelligence inside Al-Qaeda makes terrifying reading. He says Danish

:27:03.:27:09.

intelligence, MI5, MI 6 and the CIA were all happy to use his contacts

:27:10.:27:14.

for terrorists at the highest level. Especially in Yemen where he was a

:27:15.:27:21.

trusted contact of this man, once considered one of the most dangerous

:27:22.:27:26.

terrorists in the world. We have people from Mexico, America,

:27:27.:27:31.

Britain, when he came out of prison, that is why we became friends. In

:27:32.:27:36.

his first UK TV interview he started by telling me about his early

:27:37.:27:41.

troubled childhood in Denmarks, spells in prison, gangs and Islam.

:27:42.:27:47.

There was violence and conflict in your life, talk to me about that? I

:27:48.:27:54.

could see like many kids neglected by parents. I was kicked out of five

:27:55.:27:58.

schools when I was young. I couldn't sit still. But I went into this

:27:59.:28:04.

library and picked up the biography of the Prophet Mohammed and read the

:28:05.:28:07.

whole book in one day, that is something I never did before. It

:28:08.:28:13.

totally caught me and I was so convinced from the moment I was such

:28:14.:28:21.

a different person when I entered the library and when I left. While

:28:22.:28:25.

praying at Regent's Park in London, met a man who offered him help to

:28:26.:28:30.

travel to Yemen and study a fundamentalist version of Islam. I

:28:31.:28:36.

returned from Yemen with more hatred in me. You thought you were the

:28:37.:28:39.

chosen one and everyone else was wrong. In Luton and London he became

:28:40.:28:47.

a supporter of Omar Bakri Mohammed, excluded from London but never

:28:48.:28:52.

convicted. He started attending his meetings, fired up about injustices

:28:53.:28:59.

in the world, he saw it his duty to protect Muslim lands, Jihad. He's

:29:00.:29:07.

two tongued, and two faced, I was shocked when I later discovered how

:29:08.:29:11.

he had this split permity. He would have the public face but privately

:29:12.:29:16.

would he say that Jihad was permissible inside the UK? Yes he

:29:17.:29:25.

did. His fatwahs have made young people commit terrorism within

:29:26.:29:31.

Europe and outside Europe. In 2006 he hoped to travel to Somalia to

:29:32.:29:35.

help fight for an Islamic state. When he couldn't go it undermined

:29:36.:29:40.

his faith that his Jihad was ordained by God. He had a crisis of

:29:41.:29:47.

faith. I said goodbye to my family and didn't expect to come back. You

:29:48.:29:50.

thought this was your religious calling? That was it, it was my

:29:51.:29:56.

call. To fight Jihad and you were stopped. Absolutely. He decided to

:29:57.:30:02.

renounce Islam, privately, and use his contacts to work in the

:30:03.:30:06.

intelligence world. That is quite a radical thing to do. But I think my

:30:07.:30:13.

life has always been radical. I always lived in the extremes of life

:30:14.:30:19.

from eight years old, I knew I could be different and I knew the only

:30:20.:30:22.

people could be close to people like that is people like me. His contact

:30:23.:30:27.

list was priceless, he got to know the British shoe bomber Richard

:30:28.:30:34.

Reid, and the 9/11 accomplice. The man who recently became Britain's

:30:35.:30:38.

first suicide bomber in Syria, and the Yemeni-based American cleric.

:30:39.:30:44.

Dubbed the Bin Laden of the internet. He played key roles in the

:30:45.:30:50.

attack at the military base and two plots designed to bring down

:30:51.:30:54.

passenger planes. His extremist lectures and bomb-making

:30:55.:30:58.

instructions posted on-line were proving popular with Jihadis

:30:59.:31:05.

on-line. Morton was his friend and willing to help with the west. He

:31:06.:31:11.

offered to find him an English-speaking wife. I just want

:31:12.:31:18.

to tell you that right now I feel nervous... This is the woman he

:31:19.:31:22.

found and this is the private encrypted video she sent to him. She

:31:23.:31:28.

travelled to Yemen and married him, who was delighted. Her suitcase was

:31:29.:31:35.

bugged so he could be traced, arriving in Yemen she was told to

:31:36.:31:39.

leave all her luggage behind, so the American plan failed. The Americans

:31:40.:31:46.

were furious and angry, we did fall out. The methodology of working with

:31:47.:31:52.

this. And they didn't want to talk to me for six months. He was skilled

:31:53.:31:58.

by a drone strike in 20 11 and though the suitcase plan fails,

:31:59.:32:03.

Storm says it was his other work that traced him and the CIA owe him

:32:04.:32:09.

a big success fee they promised. Do you think the Americans still owe

:32:10.:32:14.

you $5 million. Yes of course they do. Why? Because I have done a lot

:32:15.:32:19.

of work for them, I carried out the mission that led them to the world's

:32:20.:32:25.

most wanted terrorist. Storm claims he even secretly recorded his CIA

:32:26.:32:30.

handler in an effort for recognition.

:32:31.:32:43.

Six months after Orlaki was killed, Storm was back under cover, trying

:32:44.:32:51.

to find other terrorists linked to Al-Qaeda. This time he says the CIA

:32:52.:32:57.

was willing to see him die, and he was warned off by another agent. I'm

:32:58.:33:00.

working for them but they are planning to kill you once the whole

:33:01.:33:06.

world will think you were a terrorist. We will west actually

:33:07.:33:11.

believe we are the God one, once we discover the other side of it, you

:33:12.:33:16.

get so deeply disappointed. The CIA declined to comment. We can't

:33:17.:33:22.

independently verify Storm's story, but there is supporting material. He

:33:23.:33:26.

says he's now in hiding in fear for his life.

:33:27.:33:35.

The size of your check book from -- chequebooks from your backers

:33:36.:33:37.

matters in politics. The parties need to be sure they have a supply

:33:38.:33:46.

of readyies. Labour can be confident of support from Unite, who announced

:33:47.:33:51.

its plans to help pay Labour's way today. But are they really convinced

:33:52.:33:55.

Ed Miliband is getting everything right? Not quite. I spoke to its

:33:56.:34:00.

leader a little earlier and asked what had changed to promted to's

:34:01.:34:08.

generosity. There has been some really interesting debates taking

:34:09.:34:15.

place in the party. John Cruddas and Anglia Eagle have been responsible

:34:16.:34:17.

for gathering thoughts from thousand of Labour Party memories, including

:34:18.:34:21.

trade unions. I think what's beginning to emerge is the

:34:22.:34:28.

likelihood of a positive, cohesive programme that offers hope to the

:34:29.:34:33.

British electorate. Today, your workers were voting to strike over

:34:34.:34:38.

pay. At the same time, Ed Balls was on a platform talking about

:34:39.:34:42.

restraining spending and he was talking about pulling down taxes for

:34:43.:34:47.

business and you know the Labour leadership is committed to

:34:48.:34:53.

restraining public pay. Ed Balls has said time and again it is no way we

:34:54.:34:58.

should be arguing for higher pay. How do those things square? The

:34:59.:35:03.

reality is we have always disagreed with Ed Balls about the question of

:35:04.:35:09.

public sector pay. Whilst leaders do have to have economic credibility,

:35:10.:35:13.

we understand that, it is about a balance and about making sure you

:35:14.:35:18.

have credibility with workers. Our members in have had 4,000 in real

:35:19.:35:30.

wages reduced and people can't put up with that any longer. So the

:35:31.:35:36.

argument is that we have to persuade both Eds, if you like that there is

:35:37.:35:40.

an alternative to the constant theme about restraint, restraint,

:35:41.:35:43.

restraint. If you were a member of your union

:35:44.:35:49.

who voted to strike today over pay being frozen or cut in some places,

:35:50.:35:55.

and you saw you promising to write cheques for millions of their money

:35:56.:35:59.

for a Labour leadership who won't increase their pay. Wouldn't you be

:36:00.:36:04.

confused about that I? That is why Ed has to demonstrate with key here

:36:05.:36:09.

issive package what new deal he will present to working people. He hasn't

:36:10.:36:14.

done that? Of course he hasn't, that is the process currently taking

:36:15.:36:18.

place, and we are urging them to do precisely that. You are right, I'm

:36:19.:36:22.

not going to my members and ask them to start voting for a political

:36:23.:36:26.

party that they don't see any different from this current

:36:27.:36:34.

disastrous Conservative Government we had. I'm confident we will see

:36:35.:36:38.

the programme that delivers and gives us hope. You don't sound that

:36:39.:36:43.

confident, only ten months tomorrow until the elections? Ten months is a

:36:44.:36:50.

long, long time in politics. Is sounds like you have -- it sounds

:36:51.:36:54.

like you have had assurances from the Labour leaderships? I have had

:36:55.:36:59.

no private assurances or private meetings. I'm confident about the

:37:00.:37:03.

debate taking place in the policy forums. You have promised a blank

:37:04.:37:08.

cheque with your members' money to a party you have just admitted has not

:37:09.:37:15.

yet even convinced you they are on the members' side? There is no blank

:37:16.:37:19.

cheque, the way we operate in my union, contrary to the media. Is our

:37:20.:37:25.

lay member executive will term what donations we give. Do you really

:37:26.:37:30.

feel the leadership is listening top radical ideas. Some -- to radicaled

:37:31.:37:38.

ideas -- radical ideas. Some think that they just get left. And there

:37:39.:37:42.

is a cynical idea that it is all about the press and local groups. I

:37:43.:37:50.

can understand the frustration, he and Angela Eagle are doing fantastic

:37:51.:37:54.

job. I see many of the policies that Ed has talked about, a million new

:37:55.:38:00.

homes, given hope of apprenticeships to our young people without jobs.

:38:01.:38:05.

Zero hour contracts being banned and increasing the minimum wage, there

:38:06.:38:09.

is a whole litany of policy, regional investment banks to invest

:38:10.:38:14.

in local communities. There is a whole litany ideas that need to be

:38:15.:38:20.

knitted together in a programme. And John Cruddas has been involved in

:38:21.:38:25.

that and I'm confident there is something we can come away with and

:38:26.:38:30.

take into the election. We are a long way away from the general

:38:31.:38:35.

election. You will see massive swings in public opinion over the

:38:36.:38:40.

next 6-9 months. When did you last have a proper

:38:41.:38:43.

conversation, yes, I'm talking to you, with your whatsapp? On your

:38:44.:38:52.

phone and tweak David Kelly on there.

:38:53.:38:55.

Experts say it is killing the art of discourse, many of us prefer to edit

:38:56.:39:00.

our thoughts in a text, rather than engage on the unpredictable

:39:01.:39:05.

face-to-face discussion. Enthusiasts for this endangered activity are

:39:06.:39:13.

hitting back, with etiquette classes and conversations between strangers.

:39:14.:39:16.

This is the unspeakable Steven Smith.

:39:17.:39:32.

Has there ever been so much chatter in human history. But is anybody

:39:33.:39:44.

actually saying anything? How has your day been, good? Would a moment

:39:45.:39:49.

of intimacy and warmth be too much to ask for? Did you see that

:39:50.:39:52.

incident the other day when that Suarez bit that geezer. Yeah,

:39:53.:39:57.

whatever, yeah? That was a liberty wasn't it, blimey. I don't know

:39:58.:40:02.

about you but I'm desperate to find meaning and contact in our howlingly

:40:03.:40:08.

lonely digital world. I picked that Jeremy Paxman up the other day, I

:40:09.:40:12.

would like to bite him on the shoulder! You have come a long way.

:40:13.:40:19.

Only a short cab ride, but worth it to talk to you and you.

:40:20.:40:25.

Face-to-face, just the two of us, with no electronic media or apps

:40:26.:40:30.

coming between us. It is all too rare these days.

:40:31.:40:37.

Very interesting, carry on. Noel Coward on seeing him in the role,

:40:38.:40:41.

he's just a bit too plummy for my taste. As host of Radio 4's Just A

:40:42.:40:51.

Minute, Nicholas Parsons has a front row seat for chat. But he for one

:40:52.:41:03.

isn't wedded to his mobile. And as for Dr Dre-style headphones, won't

:41:04.:41:11.

get him started. You look impeccable but maybe a pair of Di Canios when

:41:12.:41:16.

you are next at Lords? Ridiculous idea, you are creating good

:41:17.:41:20.

conversation, that is what this is about. I think you are, I'm trying

:41:21.:41:25.

to return the ball that's all? I'm responding to what you are saying

:41:26.:41:28.

because you said this programme would be about conversation. This is

:41:29.:41:36.

what it is, you SPEEBLG to somebody and stimulate their cerebral parts

:41:37.:41:44.

and come back with something and you respond. A lot of that is dying out

:41:45.:41:47.

because Millennium Dome don't do it enough. -- because people don't do

:41:48.:41:53.

it enough. Do you like conversation, researchers have been finding out

:41:54.:41:57.

what is going on with people who prefer to text and talk, when they

:41:58.:42:01.

can get a word out of them at all, of course? Not all new technology

:42:02.:42:10.

imhi bits conversation. When I have been doing my work and I ask people

:42:11.:42:14.

what is happening with conversation, they tell me that I tell you what is

:42:15.:42:19.

wrong, it takes place in real time and you can't control what you are

:42:20.:42:26.

going to say. What they mean by that is they would rather have control

:42:27.:42:30.

and be able to do their little side of the conversation when they, you

:42:31.:42:36.

know, when they are relaxed and they can edit. And also that they sort of

:42:37.:42:41.

want to broadcast their little side of the conversation.

:42:42.:42:53.

But all is not lost. Etiquette expert Diana is reviving the art of

:42:54.:42:57.

conversation, one afternoon tea at a time. Holding classes over

:42:58.:43:05.

sandwiches with their crusts cut of Sex for the bedroom, and religion

:43:06.:43:10.

that can be quite inflammatory, and most people don't want to know about

:43:11.:43:14.

the operations of our illnesses. That is helpful, what about mobile

:43:15.:43:21.

phones. They should always be off and out of sight during meals,

:43:22.:43:24.

meetings and parties. The person you are with is the person who is the

:43:25.:43:29.

most important. None of us are indispensable. And very few of us

:43:30.:43:32.

have to answer that text. And texting and talking is so rude, it

:43:33.:43:37.

is like me having conversation with you and completely different with

:43:38.:43:47.

you and it's like I'm ignore norring you. -- ignoring you. We are still

:43:48.:43:56.

animal, the magnetism, and the aura. If they are not concentrating on

:43:57.:44:01.

each other we are not giving that aura of magnetisim. We are wasting a

:44:02.:44:06.

huge opportunity of getting to know each other bear. There is no display

:44:07.:44:11.

in front of it, that is because the display is your smartphone. It is

:44:12.:44:18.

probably going too far to blame the loss of conversation on Click, the

:44:19.:44:22.

tech-fest. What have they to say about it? In speech please not 140.

:44:23.:44:33.

Technologies is changing conversation, if that is the geeks'

:44:34.:44:38.

fault then guilty as charged. Things move on. Continue living your life

:44:39.:44:42.

in a way that is comfortable for you. I'm not a fan of trying to

:44:43.:44:47.

force anyone into the next age. I'm conscious I will be a particular in

:44:48.:44:50.

the mud that doesn't like the way things are going either. Stick with

:44:51.:44:55.

what you are happy with and gradually things will change. Some

:44:56.:45:02.

people will become just so irritaly convenient that you will succumb to

:45:03.:45:12.

it. Do you know this person? I do. Do you know how? I don't know how.

:45:13.:45:20.

Speed dating, nothing so prosaic, they have the talking habit here in

:45:21.:45:24.

Oxford, strangers strike up conversations with one another from

:45:25.:45:34.

a menu of topics. What have you chosen to discuss, something on the

:45:35.:45:39.

menu? The things we are discussing at the moment, is it inevitable that

:45:40.:45:45.

new ideas should meet with resist sense. Back-Jackie was -- Jackie was

:45:46.:45:52.

saying that you force the ideas to prove themselves in that way. I love

:45:53.:45:58.

meeting somebody I met minutes ago and getting a sense from here about

:45:59.:46:02.

everything, from her personal background to her view of on

:46:03.:46:11.

politics. And society. How The Don who oversees the sessions said we

:46:12.:46:19.

need the "what conversation". It something very different from the

:46:20.:46:23.

old one. The old one was to pass the time, to show respect, to do what

:46:24.:46:30.

etiquette demanded, the new conversation has a different

:46:31.:46:34.

purpose, it is to discover who other people are. Do we really want to do

:46:35.:46:39.

that? You can't live in the world without knowing who other people

:46:40.:46:43.

are. This concealment makes interaction impossible. Our goal now

:46:44.:46:50.

is to discover who inhabits the world, individually, one by one. Do

:46:51.:46:58.

you know what if texting and apps are not to overwhelm us, then maybe

:46:59.:47:08.

this conversation may be the last blow for speech. Really? That is

:47:09.:47:14.

interesting. ! Civilised conversation tomorrow night. Until

:47:15.:47:16.

then good night. Plenty more dry, sunny weather to

:47:17.:47:39.

come over the next few days, temperatures above average. Looking

:47:40.:47:42.

at the forecast through the day on

:47:43.:47:44.

How will Israel respond after kidnapped teens are found dead? Rolf Harris, undercover inside Al Qaeda, Len McCluskey, and the lost art of conversation. With Laura Kuenssberg.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS