30/06/2014 Newsnight

The can he kidnapped Israeli teenagers are found dead, in a pit

on the West Bank. Hamas is getting the blame. And if history is a

guide, the Israeli response will be emotional, but could it also be

disproportionate. We hear from the Israelis and Palestinians. Also

tonight: # Your run own body

# Let me run mine Another well-loved children's

entertainer turns out to be a predatory hypocrite. Rofl Harris is

found guilty of sexually assaulting children. We asked would we notice

the same crimes today? The first UK TV interview with the

western intelligence agent who says he infiltrated Al-Qaeda. If I made a

mistake talking in my sleep or anything, I would have been exposed

and I would have ended up being crucified.

Hamas will pay, the Israeli Government is already promising

fierce punishment for the deaths of three teenage Jewish settler, found

dead, hidden under rocks in a field near Hebron in the West Bank. Let's

go straight there tonight and get the latest from the Middle East

correspondent. What is happening where you are? I'm close to the

field where that grim discovery was made late this afternoon of the

three dead Israeli teenagers. There was an Israeli search party that had

been looking in this area, which is just outside of Hebron. Here we're

only a ten-minute drive from that busy hitch hiking junction which is

where the three young Israelis were last seen alive. It is thought they

were trying to get a ride home for the weekend when they disappeared.

Now the Israeli security cabinet is still meeting tonight to try to

decide on its response to all of this. But already it has been made

very clear Israel has said consistently that it believes Hamas

was responsible for what happened to these teenagers. We have had those

strong remarks from the Israeli Prime Minister saying Hamas is to

blame, Hamas will pay. Now the Hamas spokesman in Gaza also told the BBC

that any attempt to attack the Islamist group would, he said, open

the gates of hell. And I should say the Israeli military operation to

try to find these teenagers has really targeted Hamas as well over

the past two-and-a-ha weeks. There have been more than 400 Palestinians

who have been arrested, most of them are members of Hamas. And what

evidence is there for that Israeli charge that Hamas is responsible?

Well, interestingly the Hamas leader gave an interview last week, in

which he said that Hamas had no information on the missing

teenagers, although he did praise anyone who might have carried out

their kidnapping. When we have put this question to the Israeli

military he said this is the modus operandi of Hamas, they claim Hamas

has tried to carry out abductions dozens of time in the West Bank over

the past year. And a reminder that Hamas was responsible for the

capture of the Israeli soldier held in Gaza for five years. But Hamas

hasn't itself come out saying that it is responsible. There was also

two main suspects that were named by the Israelis who had links to Hamas.

Two men who came from the City of Hebron not far away. But all of this

is so worrying for the Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who just signed

two months ago a new political agreement with his political rivals,

and they went on to set up a new unity Government, and that new unity

Government is very much under pressure tonight. As ever in this

conflict it is one side's vitriolic word against the other, as we have

seen Israel is intent on blaming ham marks Hamas have denied

responsibility. The fear tonight is this appalling event for three

families could become part of a wider tragedy for the region.

The front page story that has gripped Israel. And now the news the

country was dreading, the three missing boys are dead. Their bodies

found under a pile of rocks in a field. 19-year-old Eyal and Naftali

and Gilad, all 16, all teenage seminary students. The hunt for the

boys became a nationwide obsession, triggering a frantic search by

Israeli forces. One of the most intensive security operations for

years. Troops combed the area near Hebron in the West Bank, where the

boys went missing nearly three weeks ago. Sweep s also extended to

Palestinian towns and villages across the West Bank. Leading to

hundreds of arrests. Including members of the Hamas militant group,

the reality Government said was responsible. And then, this evening

the breakthrough, which led to the bodies being found. The vicinity is

now being cordoned off as Israeli forensic teams and security forces

look to discover exactly what happened.

Unsurprisingly there has been shock and distress from many Israelis,

already groups have gathered near the scene to pray and comfort each

other. The Israeli Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who already

warned Hamas that a -- at a cabinet meeting today, he said the boys had

been murdered in cold blood and Hamas would pay. Meanwhile the

Palestinian President, Mr Abbas, who has already condemned the abductions

today summoned an emergency meeting of his minister. He has been under

pressure from Israel to end his recent reconciliation with Hamas,

that pressure has now intensified. We believe there should be an

unequivocal message to the Palestinian leadership, President

Abbas, you formed a act with Hamas and we believe that pact has

directly led to these Merced. By allowing Hamas to re-establish its

presence on the West Bank you have allowed this attack top happen. We

believe that all people who oppose terrorism and believe in peace

should call upon the Palestinian leadership and President Abbas to

break his pact with ham marks to annul the pact. Already tensions are

escalating, here Israeli-Arabs protesting at the re-arrest of

hundreds of Palestinians because of the abductions. The crowd was

dispersed by Israeli riot police. In other incidents five Palestinians

lost their lives. There has been new violence too between Israel and

Hamas, this was Israeli retaliation for an earlier Hamas rocket attack

from Gaza on an Israeli factory. Ham marks which rejects Israel eights

accusations that it kidnapped the boys, tonight warned that any

military response by Israel would open the gates of hell. It is all a

far cry from the peace deal that John Kerry hoped to reach between

the Israeli and Palestinian leaders. Tonight President Obama condemned

the boys' murders, but above all urged restraint on all sides. At

this fraught moment that may be more of a hope than a likelihood. The

Israeli ambassador to the UK joins us, what evidence does the Israeli

Government have for blaming Hamas? Well obviously we don't share all

our evidence publicly, particularly when the search for the two

perpetrators is still under way. But a number of things are in this

tragic moment very clear. Hamas is an organisation which has been

calling for kidnappings. We have seen that since the beginning of

last year there were over 49 attempts, mercifully most of which

were frustrated, almost all but one were frustrated. We had them talking

about blessed are the hands of those who perpetrated this. That is not

the only attempt this murderous organisation is making to kill

Israelis. We have had in the last 24 hours 16 rockets fired from Gaza on

towns and villages inside Israel. On this specific case, are you

satisfied that there is concrete, direct evidence that this appalling

murder, these appalling three murders were carried out by Hamas?

The answer is yes, we are absolutely clear, that is the basis for the

investigation so far. And that is the basis for our response. What

will that response be, the language already from the Israeli Government

tonight has been extremely strong, very incendiary, talking about

punishment, talking about vengence? I don't think it is right to call it

incendiary, you are talking about three teenagers on their way home to

their parents and brutally murdered in cold blood. We have had over 200

missiles fired from the Gaza strip since the beginning of this year. We

are talking about an organisation that doesn't dream of peace, but

dreams of the brutal murder of Israelis. We need to respond to that

organisation in a language it understands. At the moment Israel is

threatening the eradication of Hamas, to quote one of your

ministers, does it not behove the Israeli Government to have a moment

of calm so the death of these three teenagers does not turn into a much

wider, much more significant conflagration, with more blood being

spilled? As we are sitting here the Israeli security cabinet is

deliberating yours correspondent described T we are aware of concerns

of escalation and proportionality and so on. But we have to bear in

mind that we are dealing with an adversary that doesn't bother itself

with those calculation at all. There is no symmetry. This is an

organisation that raises its children to praise and emulate

suicide bombers, which is firing missiles as we speak, and which has

been attempting repeatedly to kidnap and murder Israelis. So any response

to this would be justified in your view? As I said we are the side of

this equation where tragically we grapple with these issues. It would

be far easier if there was more clarity on the Palestinian side.

What is so frustrating is Abu Mazin, who presents himself as a partner

for peace, seems to think you can sit down being partner of peace

while at the same time embracing this Hamas, terrorist organisation.

Joining us from the West Bank is the leader of the secular Palestinian

national initiative party. Thank you for joining us. The reality

Government is entitled to retaliate are they not? No they are not. First

of all I think the main person responsible for the tragic that

happened is Mr Netherton -- Binyamin Netanyahu himself. He's responsible

for the tragic death of more than ten minutes so far who were killed

by his army, including three children. I don't think... You are

suggesting these young teenagers had it coming are you? Because they were

somewhere geographically? They should not have been in illegal

settlements which are considered illegal by international law and a

violation of international law, that is what all countries of the world

are saying. And Mr Binyamin Netanyahu should have protected them

and not tending them to these places. More than that he's now.

Retaliating and he wants to retaliate, without even bringing a

single proof that any Palestinian was responsible for their deaths.

There is very strange. Are you not suggesting that any settler is fair

game. President Netenyahu didn't kill these people himself? I don't

like anybody to be killed, but I'm saying no security or real peace

will be available either to Palestinians or Israelis, unless the

Israeli military occupation is ended. Unless the system of

apartheid, discrimination, and oppression of the Palestinian

people, during an occupation that has become the longest in modern

history, for 47 years we have been oppressed. And unless this ends, the

main cause of insecurity, the main cause of suffering, which is mostly

on the Palestinian side is this Israeli military occupation. Mr

Netenyahu has broken the peace process before, and undermined any

possibility for a two-state solution. Now he's trying to use a

tragic death to escalate a new war. Can you be sure that Hamas are not

behind these three deaths, are you sure of that? What I'm sure about is

that Hamas has said very clearly that they are not responsible for

this. No Palestinian group has declared responsibility for it. I'm

sure that the Israeli Government, Mr Netenyahu and the Israeli ambassador

in London, could not provide up to this moment any single proof that

any Palestinian was responsible for this. But at the end of the day, the

overall cause of all suffering here is the continued military occupation

of Palestinian territories and the lack of peace which Israel is

responsible for. You brokered the deal with Hamas to put together this

new Government, which is only weeks old. How will you be telling others

to respond. Hamas is already saying tonight, they are talking about

opening the "gates of hell" if there is retaliation from Israel, what

will you be saying? I would say that Hamas can be approached to accept

nonviolent resistance, and accept this as a form. And Hamas, in my

opinion can be convinced to accept a two-state solution if Israel is

ready to end the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people

and this apartheid, illegal system. For everybody's sake this is the

best way forward. You know we have been conducting nonviolent, peaceful

resistance, and the response we get from Israel is attacks and gun shots

from the Israeli army which killed two very young boys, children,

basically, who are 15, 16 years old, just before this incident happened.

What I'm saying is there should be not double standard. All lives,

Palestinian and Israelis are precious and should be observed

through peace. Thank you very much. Rofl Harris

said the most important thing for him was not to con public. But in

fact his whole public persona was a fraud. He was a mildly irritating

children's entertainment, but a man who used that status to abuse

children over two decades. He was not, in the end, too famous or

powerful to face justice. After years of silence his victims'

stories were told and believed. An entertainer for 60 years. From

children's programmes to prime time TV. From black and white to full

colour. Today though Rofl Harris left court with that reputation in

pieces. Guilty of a series of historic sex offence, one against a

girl as young as seven. The victims in this case have suffered in

silence for many years and have only recently found the courage to come

forward. I would like to pay tribute to the bravery they displayed in

coming to court and giving evidence. That bravery and determination has

seen Rofl Harris brought to justice and held to account. 30 years ago

Harrison Harris was already a veteran of Saturday night TV. I had

a curious catch phrase I use at every available opportunity at that

stage, I would say without thinking "I never touched her your honour"!

The women central to the case said it was around this time she was

first abused, on holiday, then at his home. By the early 1980s he had

moved to the quiet village of Brae Berkshire, he was a family man and

she a close friend of his young daughter. She told the court she was

13 at the time, terrified and didn't feel she could say no. From behind

the curtain she said how the abuse continued on and off for more than a

decade. She said it turned her into an alcoholic. In 1997 Harris wrote

this letter to her father, in it the star asks for forgiveness, saying

they did had a relationship but it was consensual and didn't start

until she was 18. Her family didn't believe him, nor did the jury. It

was after watching the Queen's Jubilee Concert that the same woman

felt she was strong enough to call the police. Saying she could never

get away from that "bloody man". His arrest led to a wave of publicity

and others came forward, one groped outside a community centre in

Portsmouth when she was seven or eight years old. Another this

celebrity sports event in Cambridge when she was 16, Harris denied

visiting the city until this old footage was played in court. He put

his hand on my thigh. Then there was Tonya Lee, the only one of the

victims to wave her anonymity, after selling her story in Australia. She

was 15 when she was sexually assaulted in a pub in East London. I

wanted to scream but I didn't. I knew what he had done was wrong. I

was embarrassed as well, and then I thought, I didn't want to tell

anybody that he had touched me. The court heard from witnesses across

the world with similar stories, from Darwin, from New Zealand, from

Malta, one make-up lady said they had a nickname for him, "the

octopus". Can I say how lovely you look. You smoothie. Harris's defence

claimed he was just a touchy, feely sort of person, somebody who could

be tactile and affectionate with men and women. In court old colleagues,

like the director Dougie Squires stood up to say they hadn't seen

anything inappropriate at work or anything that had crossed the line:

The torture of being there for six weeks listening to some people who

defended him and some people accusing him, which is right or

wrong, and only he probably knows the truth. But the torture of it is

a penalty in itself. That is the humility of being there is

punishment in itself. What happens now, the punishment has been

administered, if that is the right word. This is the most high-profile

result yet for Operation Yewtree, the investigation set up after the

Jimmy Savile's scandal. There no suggestion that the two offenders

are connected. For years he did work closely with children and young

people, even fronting a film highlighting the danger of child

abuse. It is that sort of touching I want to talk about today, it helps

you to understand the sort of touching that doesn't make you feel

too good. Rofl Harris's wife, Alwen returned to the family home alone

this evening, her husband's career over and his reputation damaged

forever. Once again the questions will be asked. How did this happen

so many times? For so long? Without the authorities, his employers or

anyone else stopping it? With us now are the former Director of Public

Prosecutions Kier Starmer, who was in charge at the CPS when they made

the decision to prosecute Rofl Harris. And we have a representative

from the NSPCC. It is almost impossible to believe some of that

archive when you see T when you took the decision he is CPS, how

confident were you that the charges would stick, given his public image

and persona? I was confident in the decision, but his persona is very

important. It is very difficult for victims of sexual abuse to come

forward. In ordinary circumstances it is particularly difficult where

there is a celebrity involved, because very often victims feel they

are simply not going to be believed against someone such as Rofl Harris.

It was exactly the same with Jimmy Savile, where very few victims did

come forward in that case they felt they couldn't think Jimmy Savile on,

or that they would be believed. That is a critical part of this whole

case. What also about the difficulties of historic testimony,

I mean we saw from this court case, for some of the people giving

testimony they were reaching back 20, 30 years, that wasn't always

straight forward. It was sometimes problematic? It is, it makes the

cases much more difficult, but one thing very important in creating a

better environment for people to come forward is to bust the myths,

so people will come forward quickly if they have been abused. There is a

myth, it was very long after the event before victims felt they could

come forward. We have to recognise that is part of the way we respond

to this sort of offending. It does create difficulties, but let as bust

some of those myths. Operation Yewtree yielding results now for the

authorities, it is an unusual spasam of prosecutions and an outpouring of

looking back over the years. Do you think it will contribute to change

for victims? It has already, not only with Operation Yewtree, but we

have heard from the helpline service about a number of people who are not

only reporting historical abuse but also what is happening now in our

communities. I think there is a huge sea change both in public

confidence, with police and CPS, and also with children Children's

Services and being able to address these disturbing string of events

occurring. I think it will encourage victims to come forward if they have

concerns about what happened to them in the past by other people in

authority. What kinds of numbers are you talking about, a surge of new

reports coming forward? We have seen since Operation Yewtree started back

in October. We are seeing on occasions a doubling or trebling of

reports to our helpline service. There is a significant increase now

in people coming forward and giving information about children at risk.

Of course that is happening at a time when the prosecuting

authorities and the police are having to do more with less

resources, a doubling or trebling of people coming forward, can they cope

with it? Yes they can, and there is resources to deal with it. One of

the critical things that shouldn't be missed at the heart of this is

anonymity. Very often victims find it difficult to come forward, but

will come forward if they know there is another victim out there. Whilst

everybody understands and sympathises with an innocent person

who is wrongly charged with rape or some other offence, what this case

shows is that anonymity would have served an injustice, because some of

the victims would not have come forward. In fact, had there been

anonymity, which some people argue for, which is until conviction, your

headline tonight would be "it's Rofl Harris" because you wouldn't have

known that until tonight. This goes to the heart of the very important

debate about anonymity. We are still getting people coming forward and

giving us information about Rofl Harris as well. Even tonight? I

think it is really important that if we remove anonymity in some of these

case, and it should be judged on a case-by-case basis, it gives you a

greater degree of confidence for people to come forward and provide

valuable information for the investigation. Very briefly, do you

think there is a danger that with Operation Yewtree that such a huge

phenomenon, is it a danger that we will focus on it so much that in the

end we will think we have dealt with this problem and it is all in the

past? No, what it does is remind organisations that what you have to

have in place is very robust reporting procedures and also a

culture that allows people to speak out. There has to be a cultural

shift, we are in the foot hills, a huge amount to do, a step forward

but let not anybody think we are where we need to be on this.

If it were a Hollywood blockbuster you wouldn't believe it, a member of

a biker gang becomes a Muslim and makes friends with some of the

biggest extremist, then he last has a change of heart, and gets in touch

with Security Services and infiltrates Al-Qaeda. It is a true

story, but it doesn't have a happy ending.

This is Morton Storm in 2005, the Danish extremist protesting in

London. This is his image eight years later, his image pinned on the

wall, extremists want to kill him for betraying Al-Qaeda. If I went to

sleep and talked in my sleep I would have been exposed and ended up being

crucified. His account of seven years under cover for western

intelligence inside Al-Qaeda makes terrifying reading. He says Danish

intelligence, MI5, MI 6 and the CIA were all happy to use his contacts

for terrorists at the highest level. Especially in Yemen where he was a

trusted contact of this man, once considered one of the most dangerous

terrorists in the world. We have people from Mexico, America,

Britain, when he came out of prison, that is why we became friends. In

his first UK TV interview he started by telling me about his early

troubled childhood in Denmarks, spells in prison, gangs and Islam.

There was violence and conflict in your life, talk to me about that? I

could see like many kids neglected by parents. I was kicked out of five

schools when I was young. I couldn't sit still. But I went into this

library and picked up the biography of the Prophet Mohammed and read the

whole book in one day, that is something I never did before. It

totally caught me and I was so convinced from the moment I was such

a different person when I entered the library and when I left. While

praying at Regent's Park in London, met a man who offered him help to

travel to Yemen and study a fundamentalist version of Islam. I

returned from Yemen with more hatred in me. You thought you were the

chosen one and everyone else was wrong. In Luton and London he became

a supporter of Omar Bakri Mohammed, excluded from London but never

convicted. He started attending his meetings, fired up about injustices

in the world, he saw it his duty to protect Muslim lands, Jihad. He's

two tongued, and two faced, I was shocked when I later discovered how

he had this split permity. He would have the public face but privately

would he say that Jihad was permissible inside the UK? Yes he

did. His fatwahs have made young people commit terrorism within

Europe and outside Europe. In 2006 he hoped to travel to Somalia to

help fight for an Islamic state. When he couldn't go it undermined

his faith that his Jihad was ordained by God. He had a crisis of

faith. I said goodbye to my family and didn't expect to come back. You

thought this was your religious calling? That was it, it was my

call. To fight Jihad and you were stopped. Absolutely. He decided to

renounce Islam, privately, and use his contacts to work in the

intelligence world. That is quite a radical thing to do. But I think my

life has always been radical. I always lived in the extremes of life

from eight years old, I knew I could be different and I knew the only

people could be close to people like that is people like me. His contact

list was priceless, he got to know the British shoe bomber Richard

Reid, and the 9/11 accomplice. The man who recently became Britain's

first suicide bomber in Syria, and the Yemeni-based American cleric.

Dubbed the Bin Laden of the internet. He played key roles in the

attack at the military base and two plots designed to bring down

passenger planes. His extremist lectures and bomb-making

instructions posted on-line were proving popular with Jihadis

on-line. Morton was his friend and willing to help with the west. He

offered to find him an English-speaking wife. I just want

to tell you that right now I feel nervous... This is the woman he

found and this is the private encrypted video she sent to him. She

travelled to Yemen and married him, who was delighted. Her suitcase was

bugged so he could be traced, arriving in Yemen she was told to

leave all her luggage behind, so the American plan failed. The Americans

were furious and angry, we did fall out. The methodology of working with

this. And they didn't want to talk to me for six months. He was skilled

by a drone strike in 20 11 and though the suitcase plan fails,

Storm says it was his other work that traced him and the CIA owe him

a big success fee they promised. Do you think the Americans still owe

you $5 million. Yes of course they do. Why? Because I have done a lot

of work for them, I carried out the mission that led them to the world's

most wanted terrorist. Storm claims he even secretly recorded his CIA

handler in an effort for recognition.

Six months after Orlaki was killed, Storm was back under cover, trying

to find other terrorists linked to Al-Qaeda. This time he says the CIA

was willing to see him die, and he was warned off by another agent. I'm

working for them but they are planning to kill you once the whole

world will think you were a terrorist. We will west actually

believe we are the God one, once we discover the other side of it, you

get so deeply disappointed. The CIA declined to comment. We can't

independently verify Storm's story, but there is supporting material. He

says he's now in hiding in fear for his life.

The size of your check book from -- chequebooks from your backers

matters in politics. The parties need to be sure they have a supply

of readyies. Labour can be confident of support from Unite, who announced

its plans to help pay Labour's way today. But are they really convinced

Ed Miliband is getting everything right? Not quite. I spoke to its

leader a little earlier and asked what had changed to promted to's

generosity. There has been some really interesting debates taking

place in the party. John Cruddas and Anglia Eagle have been responsible

for gathering thoughts from thousand of Labour Party memories, including

trade unions. I think what's beginning to emerge is the

likelihood of a positive, cohesive programme that offers hope to the

British electorate. Today, your workers were voting to strike over

pay. At the same time, Ed Balls was on a platform talking about

restraining spending and he was talking about pulling down taxes for

business and you know the Labour leadership is committed to

restraining public pay. Ed Balls has said time and again it is no way we

should be arguing for higher pay. How do those things square? The

reality is we have always disagreed with Ed Balls about the question of

public sector pay. Whilst leaders do have to have economic credibility,

we understand that, it is about a balance and about making sure you

have credibility with workers. Our members in have had 4,000 in real

wages reduced and people can't put up with that any longer. So the

argument is that we have to persuade both Eds, if you like that there is

an alternative to the constant theme about restraint, restraint,

restraint. If you were a member of your union

who voted to strike today over pay being frozen or cut in some places,

and you saw you promising to write cheques for millions of their money

for a Labour leadership who won't increase their pay. Wouldn't you be

confused about that I? That is why Ed has to demonstrate with key here

issive package what new deal he will present to working people. He hasn't

done that? Of course he hasn't, that is the process currently taking

place, and we are urging them to do precisely that. You are right, I'm

not going to my members and ask them to start voting for a political

party that they don't see any different from this current

disastrous Conservative Government we had. I'm confident we will see

the programme that delivers and gives us hope. You don't sound that

confident, only ten months tomorrow until the elections? Ten months is a

long, long time in politics. Is sounds like you have -- it sounds

like you have had assurances from the Labour leaderships? I have had

no private assurances or private meetings. I'm confident about the

debate taking place in the policy forums. You have promised a blank

cheque with your members' money to a party you have just admitted has not

yet even convinced you they are on the members' side? There is no blank

cheque, the way we operate in my union, contrary to the media. Is our

lay member executive will term what donations we give. Do you really

feel the leadership is listening top radical ideas. Some -- to radicaled

ideas -- radical ideas. Some think that they just get left. And there

is a cynical idea that it is all about the press and local groups. I

can understand the frustration, he and Angela Eagle are doing fantastic

job. I see many of the policies that Ed has talked about, a million new

homes, given hope of apprenticeships to our young people without jobs.

Zero hour contracts being banned and increasing the minimum wage, there

is a whole litany of policy, regional investment banks to invest

in local communities. There is a whole litany ideas that need to be

knitted together in a programme. And John Cruddas has been involved in

that and I'm confident there is something we can come away with and

take into the election. We are a long way away from the general

election. You will see massive swings in public opinion over the

next 6-9 months. When did you last have a proper

conversation, yes, I'm talking to you, with your whatsapp? On your

phone and tweak David Kelly on there.

Experts say it is killing the art of discourse, many of us prefer to edit

our thoughts in a text, rather than engage on the unpredictable

face-to-face discussion. Enthusiasts for this endangered activity are

hitting back, with etiquette classes and conversations between strangers.

This is the unspeakable Steven Smith.

Has there ever been so much chatter in human history. But is anybody

actually saying anything? How has your day been, good? Would a moment

of intimacy and warmth be too much to ask for? Did you see that

incident the other day when that Suarez bit that geezer. Yeah,

whatever, yeah? That was a liberty wasn't it, blimey. I don't know

about you but I'm desperate to find meaning and contact in our howlingly

lonely digital world. I picked that Jeremy Paxman up the other day, I

would like to bite him on the shoulder! You have come a long way.

Only a short cab ride, but worth it to talk to you and you.

Face-to-face, just the two of us, with no electronic media or apps

coming between us. It is all too rare these days.

Very interesting, carry on. Noel Coward on seeing him in the role,

he's just a bit too plummy for my taste. As host of Radio 4's Just A

Minute, Nicholas Parsons has a front row seat for chat. But he for one

isn't wedded to his mobile. And as for Dr Dre-style headphones, won't

get him started. You look impeccable but maybe a pair of Di Canios when

you are next at Lords? Ridiculous idea, you are creating good

conversation, that is what this is about. I think you are, I'm trying

to return the ball that's all? I'm responding to what you are saying

because you said this programme would be about conversation. This is

what it is, you SPEEBLG to somebody and stimulate their cerebral parts

and come back with something and you respond. A lot of that is dying out

because Millennium Dome don't do it enough. -- because people don't do

it enough. Do you like conversation, researchers have been finding out

what is going on with people who prefer to text and talk, when they

can get a word out of them at all, of course? Not all new technology

imhi bits conversation. When I have been doing my work and I ask people

what is happening with conversation, they tell me that I tell you what is

wrong, it takes place in real time and you can't control what you are

going to say. What they mean by that is they would rather have control

and be able to do their little side of the conversation when they, you

know, when they are relaxed and they can edit. And also that they sort of

want to broadcast their little side of the conversation.

But all is not lost. Etiquette expert Diana is reviving the art of

conversation, one afternoon tea at a time. Holding classes over

sandwiches with their crusts cut of Sex for the bedroom, and religion

that can be quite inflammatory, and most people don't want to know about

the operations of our illnesses. That is helpful, what about mobile

phones. They should always be off and out of sight during meals,

meetings and parties. The person you are with is the person who is the

most important. None of us are indispensable. And very few of us

have to answer that text. And texting and talking is so rude, it

is like me having conversation with you and completely different with

you and it's like I'm ignore norring you. -- ignoring you. We are still

animal, the magnetism, and the aura. If they are not concentrating on

each other we are not giving that aura of magnetisim. We are wasting a

huge opportunity of getting to know each other bear. There is no display

in front of it, that is because the display is your smartphone. It is

probably going too far to blame the loss of conversation on Click, the

tech-fest. What have they to say about it? In speech please not 140.

Technologies is changing conversation, if that is the geeks'

fault then guilty as charged. Things move on. Continue living your life

in a way that is comfortable for you. I'm not a fan of trying to

force anyone into the next age. I'm conscious I will be a particular in

the mud that doesn't like the way things are going either. Stick with

what you are happy with and gradually things will change. Some

people will become just so irritaly convenient that you will succumb to

it. Do you know this person? I do. Do you know how? I don't know how.

Speed dating, nothing so prosaic, they have the talking habit here in

Oxford, strangers strike up conversations with one another from

a menu of topics. What have you chosen to discuss, something on the

menu? The things we are discussing at the moment, is it inevitable that

new ideas should meet with resist sense. Back-Jackie was -- Jackie was

saying that you force the ideas to prove themselves in that way. I love

meeting somebody I met minutes ago and getting a sense from here about

everything, from her personal background to her view of on

politics. And society. How The Don who oversees the sessions said we

need the "what conversation". It something very different from the

old one. The old one was to pass the time, to show respect, to do what

etiquette demanded, the new conversation has a different

purpose, it is to discover who other people are. Do we really want to do

that? You can't live in the world without knowing who other people

are. This concealment makes interaction impossible. Our goal now

is to discover who inhabits the world, individually, one by one. Do

you know what if texting and apps are not to overwhelm us, then maybe

this conversation may be the last blow for speech. Really? That is

interesting. ! Civilised conversation tomorrow night. Until

then good night. Plenty more dry, sunny weather to

come over the next few days, temperatures above average. Looking

at the forecast through the day on