Browse content similar to 04/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
the number of OAPs behind bars has doubled in ten years. | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
Rolf Harris, sentenced today, fits the trend - | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
four out of ten of them are sex offenders. | :00:13. | :00:14. | |
Are the jails fit to cope, and does anyone care if they're not? | :00:15. | :00:23. | |
Because I was older, I was perceived to be easy game, so until they got | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
to know you, people would bundle you into your cell and half of your | :00:32. | :00:32. | |
stuff was gone. As Palestinians gather | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
to bury their murdered teenager Newsnight speaks exclusively | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
to the Palestinian group Hamas. Will our new aircraft carrier | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
save the realm? Or is it a truly massive | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
waste of money? Just don't call it a boat, or this | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
man will get very cross! Rolf Harris was given a custodial | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
sentence today of nearly six years. No sooner had it been handed down | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
than the Attorney General received complaints from the public | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
that it was too lenient. The 84-year-old | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
Australian entertainer may not be dwelling on statistics | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
right now, but when he looks around his prison, | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
he will find he's part of a growing trend - | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
two in fact. Four out of ten men who are over | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
60 are in prison for sex offences. And the number | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
of prisoner pensioners Here's Jim Reed | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
on a remarkable phenomenon 84 years old, he'll now serve | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
a near six-year sentence. His victims will finally | :01:33. | :01:50. | |
see some justice. But Harris is just | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
the latest pensioner to be locked up | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
for historic sex abuse. Along with Max Clifford | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
and Stuart Hall, he's part of a wider | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
and rarely reported trend. the fastest-growing category | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
of prisoner is now the elderly. be placed on | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
the vulnerable person unit, and probably in isolation | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
in a cell on his own Andrew, now in his 60s, | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
has just been released after serving four years | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
for sexual assault on another adult. You can imagine him | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
walking onto a wing and everybody singing his songs | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
and shouting things at him. It can be very intimidating, because | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
usually, when you're in your 50s and later, you've been in control | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
of your life most of the time. From that moment on, | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
you become a number. The prison population has not | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
just grown over the last decade DNA evidence and the fresh | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
investigation of historic crimes behind the changing demographics | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
of our criminal justice system. The number of over-60s in prison | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
has jumped 120% Last month, a 94-year-old was jailed | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
for abusing a child in the 1970s. 42% of all older inmates | :02:57. | :03:08. | |
are inside for sex offences, far higher than the wider | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
prison population at 15%. Nobody will want to know you, | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
you are the worst of the worst. If you knowingly associate | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
with a high-profile sex offender, you'll be tarred | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
with the same brush. Other prisoners will shun you | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
or bully you. Did you have direct experience | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
of bullying when you were inside? Because I was older, I was perceived | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
to be more easy, easy game. people would bundle you | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
into your cell and before you realised it | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
half your stuff was gone. Do you report it and get labelled | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
as a grass and get done again? Or just put up with it | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
and try to get on? Longer sentences and | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
an ageing population in general are also adding to the pressure | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
on the prison system. on an older convict | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
than the typical prisoner. have a chronic illness | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
or disability. We could fill | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
eight average size jails simply with prisoners | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
who are over the age of 60. And of course the big problem | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
for the Prison Service is that this demographic | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
is going to become more pronounced, because the second-fastest | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
group of people that we are locking up at the moment | :04:31. | :04:32. | |
are aged between 50 and 59. So by every stretch | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
of the imagination, this is a problem | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
that is going to get worse. Pete was released last year | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
after serving time for murder. Now in his late 70s, he says | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
he's seen prisons age significantly Well, in my experience, there was | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
a great element of resentment amongst quite a few prison officers | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
when managing older prisoners. is quite different | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
from that of younger prisoners. The younger ones are aggressive | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
in-your-face, confrontational. The staff are more used to dealing | :05:08. | :05:16. | |
with that kind of prisoner, A handful of prisons, | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
like Norwich and Leyhill, Whatton near Nottingham | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
has a dedicated end-of-life suite. But the steep staircases and | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
narrow doors of Victorian buildings, were not built for wheelchairs | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
or sticks, or for inmates with diabetes | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
and dementia. I have no problem walking up to a | :05:40. | :05:50. | |
60-year-old or a 70-year-old or a dear old who has committed a violent | :05:51. | :05:52. | |
or sexual offence. is an institution which | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
is designed for the young and cannot really cope | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
with this type of demographic, which is why we have to keep asking | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
the Ministry of Justice, when are they going to produce | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
a national strategy pronounced, specialist geriatric | :06:07. | :06:24. | |
centres cater for the old and dying. Former inmates who work with older | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
prisoners say we need to be looking at the same thing in this country. | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
do we have special prisons for older people, secure care homes | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
If they are going to be given life sentences, | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
The cost to the Prison Service is enormous, | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
so with the longer sentence, there's a cost implication for them, | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
not only whilst they're inside but when they come out. | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
Rolf Harris is likely to be at least 87 by the time he's released. | :06:51. | :06:59. | |
There will be no sympathy for him after the crimes he has committed. | :07:00. | :07:09. | |
But he is just one of many. The prison population is getting older, | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
and that has consequences for society as a whole. | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
Murder was met with murder in the Middle East this week, | :07:17. | :07:18. | |
Old Testament echoes of a truly biblical eye for an eye. | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
Today, Palestinians buried their dead teenager - | :07:22. | :07:23. | |
for the killing of three Israeli teenagers | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
who were themselves buried three days earlier. | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
Today Hamas was quoted as saying the organisation was ready | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
to halt its rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
if the Israeli military ceased its air raids on Gaza | :07:33. | :07:34. | |
as part of a cease-fire deal brokered by Egyptian officials. | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
We will ask Hamas about that in just a moment. | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
First, our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
has spent the past few days in the West Bank, | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
where the Israeli teenagers were killed. | :07:44. | :07:44. | |
We can talk to him now from Jerusalem. | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
Mark, are the Israelis any closer to finding the killers? | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
Well, we believe they are, but you know, the fact that this was a | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
Jewish revenge murder, characterise it that way, if you like, of the | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
teenager in Jerusalem, Mohammed Abu Khdair, is not officially confirmed | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
by police here, and that is part of a strategy of slowly releasing the | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
awful truth of what happened in order to minimise the into communal | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
violence that results. So for example, details of horrific | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
injuries to the boy were kept under wraps for a while, and the reason of | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
his body was timed so that it would be after Friday prayers. -- | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
release. That was in order to try to reduce the level of violence that | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
might result. Does the Israeli public support the way that Prime | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is dealing with this? Well, this | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
management of this is all part of what the Prime Minister is thought | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
to be doing in trying to keep a lid on the situation, and it is | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
interesting - he is perceived by many as a centrist leader in this | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
respect, shunning the cause of extreme nationalists for drastic, | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
heavy military action against Gaza, against the West Bank. Now, of | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
course, if are you Palestinian, you have a very different perspective on | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
that, particularly in the area of Hebron, where three Israeli | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
teenagers were kidnapped, and where they have been subject to intensive | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
Israeli security operations. When the violence has moved on, | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
families are left with the simple, inconsolable facts of their loss. | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
Last month, in their hunt for three kidnapped teenagers, Israeli forces | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
came to this town near Hebron, and in their food took the life of | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
another teenager, a Palestinian -- their fruitless search. His mother | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
does not believe that any Israeli boys were kidnapped, and she wants | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
revenge. TRANSLATION: Its settlers were really kidnapped, and to me it | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
is still a far-fetched idea, then let them see what I am going | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
through. My heart burned, let them see how that feels, so they will | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
know what it is like and how we suffer. 300 Palestinian sons dying | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
for one Israeli son, why should a Jewish mother not go through what I | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
am going through? They are the settlers, the ones who have taken | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
our land. I wish my son had done the kidnapped. | :10:25. | :10:31. | |
In Jerusalem, there is anger too at the murder of another Palestinian | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
teenager. It is suspected it was a vigilante killing by Jewish | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
extremists, and trying to contain this tit for tat of abductions, | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Israel's Prime Minister has insisted that if there is to be payback, the | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
state alone should exact date. - it. The foremost right without which | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
the others cannot exist is the right to live, and that is why we pursued | :11:02. | :11:13. | |
the murderers of the three boys They denied them that basic right in | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
such a cruel way. And that is why I unequivocally condemn the murder of | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem two days ago. | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
In Hebron, where settlers and Palestinians live cheek by jowl the | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
risk of further violence is obvious. For Israelis, continued operations | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
aimed at finding the kidnappers or harming Hamas are a clear necessity. | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
But they are full of risk. We were summoned to the Hebron neighbourhood | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
where we were told Israeli troops had trashed the milk plant on | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
Wednesday night. There we found a group of protesting orphans, a field | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
day for the local media. The plant belongs to a religious charity set | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
up to help the orphans. The Israelis have stripped out its equipment | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
So why would they have carried off an entire milk production plant | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Well, Israelis don't have much regard for Palestinian opinion, they | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
know they are already highly unpopular here, but perhaps they | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
were hoping to impress domestic Israeli opinion, because this plant | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
is largely owned by a religious charity which the Israelis say have | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
been used to channel funds towards Hamas and other militant movements. | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
So we asked the head of the charity whether he was a Hamas fundraiser. | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
These allegations are false and there is no proof or reality to | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
them. They are all completely contrary to the aims and mission of | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
this organisation. Hamas uses this network to | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
indoctrinate Palestinians... The Israeli response, he would say that, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
wouldn't he? They insisted steel Newsnight that the plant was run by | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
Hamas activists and their move against it was part of a drive | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
against the religious charities Even if that is right, imagine | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
smashing up the milk plant would only embitter local opinion. But | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
against an underground organisation like Hamas in the West Bank there | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
are a few obvious targets. Hamas is not a building that can be destroyed | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
by laser-guided missiles not a building that can be destroyed | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
by laser-guided or by large army bulldozers. Hamas lives in the | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
hearts of millions of people who reject the Israeli occupation. The | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
Israeli security clamp-down around Hebron continues, and the | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
Palestinian authority's security forces are left with little more to | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
do than direct the traffic. So the mayor, part of the Fatah faction | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
that supports dialogue, is left feeling humiliated and longing for | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
the resumption of a meaningful peace process. | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
I urge the international community and the United Nations, | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
really to push hard to push hard on the Israeli government so that this | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
issue can be taken seriously and we as Palestinians, as I said, we are | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
The day and the Ramadan fast draw to an end | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
These are difficult times here for the crankiness | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
of abstinence combines with the resentment of Israelis | :14:48. | :14:49. | |
I'm working to teach our youth how to react in an unviolent way. | :14:50. | :14:57. | |
But what I do when big violence is happening from the other side? | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
I can't tell them, please what are you doing. | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
Both of us will be lose in the situation. | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
Reaching no solution point is my nightmare. | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
Somewhere around here those who kidnapped and | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
murdered three Israeli teens could be hiding, as well as armed cells | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
No western country doubts Israel's right to tackle this threat, | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
but the operations of the past few weeks have brought | :15:27. | :15:28. | |
That was Mark Urban in the West Bank. Osama Hamdan is the foreign | :15:29. | :15:52. | |
affairs spokesman for Hamas based in Lebanon. Thank you for your time | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
tonight on Newsnightment we heard a ceasefire has been declared with | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
Egypt's help, is that right? Well, it's not confirmed yet. There is an | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
Egyptian (inaudible) to do that The Israelis broke the last ceasefire. | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
We are still waiting to have confirmation from the Egyptian side | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
and some guarantees the Israelis will not attack after that. They | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
haven't agreed a ceasefire yet then? Well, it's on the Israeli side. We | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
are still waiting. Hamas has been blamed for the abduction of the | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
Israeli teenagers we saw in Mark's film. Who do you believe was behind | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
that abduction and murder? Well Hamas has declared clearly, from the | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
highest level in Hamas, that we have no information about what exactly | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
happened in the West Bank and what had happened with those Israelis. | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
This is the fact, which everyone has to know. The Israeli side, until | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
now, did not provide any (inaudible). The Israelis have used | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
that story to arrest, kill, and arrest hundreds of Palestinians | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
destroying houses, without any clue that the Palestinians are connected | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
to that issue. And here we are seeing a new uprising for the | :17:25. | :17:37. | |
(inaudible) inside Israel. What had happened, he was kidnapped, shot. He | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
was forced to swallow gasoline then he was burnt alive to death. Let me | :17:43. | :17:51. | |
take this step-by-step. Do you condemn, first of all, the murder of | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
the teenager. We heard Netanyahu condemning the murder of the | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
Palestinian boy. Do you condemn the murder of the Israelis? Netanyahu is | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
occupying our lands. Netanyahu is occupying the Palestinian lands Do | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
you condemn the murder of the teenage boys? In 2013. In 2013, 400 | :18:11. | :18:19. | |
attacks by the settlers were against the Palestinians in the West Bank. | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
You don't condemn the murder of the boys. It's a simple question? Excuse | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
me. It's not a fair question to ask Palestinians who are under | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
occupation and being killed every day about their ideas towards the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
occupiers. It's - the fair question is, what about the occupation? | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
No-one has the right to escape from the major problem. The problem is | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
the occupation. I believe everyone has to condemn the occupation and | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
push Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian lands and make pressure | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
on Netanyahu not to sabotage and destroy the peace process and taking | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
over the Palestinian lands. The Israeli Foreign Ministry said 1 200 | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
people have been killed in violence and terrorism since 2000. Clearly, | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
there are deaths on both sides. Have you given up on a two-state solution | :19:10. | :19:17. | |
now? I think Netanyahu is destroying the two-state solution - What about | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
you? No-one can talk about two-state solution. I believe Abbas is | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
insisting on the two-state solution he was supported by the | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
organisations - You say "chance would you like to - Listen, and | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
listen, well, I'd like to see a Palestinian independent sovereign | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
state on Palestinian lands. I'm not in favour of talking about Israeli | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
side. We are under occupation. You have to ask the Israelis whether | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
they are ready to give up their occupation for the Palestinian lands | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
or not? What do you mean, you are not in favour of talking about do | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
you think that Israel should carry on existing as a state? Well, the | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
fairer question is to ask about the Palestinian people and how they are | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
suffering under the occupation. You can't ask the Palestinians who are | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
being killed every day about their ideas about Israel. The major idea | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
now is to resist the occupation and make an end for this occupation | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
now is to resist the occupation and that is not happening, you | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
now is to resist the occupation and the Palestinians any questions. The | :20:25. | :20:25. | |
Palestinians are asking the questions about the international | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
community. The position of the international community towards | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
their cause. The Palestinians are asking about what does it mean, the | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
international resolution, the international resolutions if it s | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
not forcing the Israelis to withdraw from their hands and stopping the | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
killing of the Palestinians. We will ask the same questions to the | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
Israelis, as I'm sure you know. Thank you very much indeed. | :20:49. | :20:57. | |
It seems slightly mean spirited - given the Royal turnout, the panoply | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
and the ?6.2 billion price tag to point out that the new aircraft | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
carrier will not be carrying any aircraft for some time. | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
That's jobs in Scotland before a referendum, you understand. | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
It's given the nation a sense of its naval pride once again, remind | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
the world of our commitment to the defence industry and indeed defence. | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
But returning, just for a minute, to the ?6.2 billion price tag, can | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
Here's our policy editor, Chris Cook. | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
The Second World War, the Falklands, the Balkans, the Gulf, Afghanistan. | :21:29. | :21:37. | |
Scores of humanitarian efforts. Aircraft carriers are main stays of | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
British sea power. Today, one Queen Elizabeth christened another. Le a | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
new carrier was named in Rosyth the first of two on the production line. | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
These ships are expensive, costing ?6 billion a pair. They do last a | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
long time. NEWS REEL: | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
I name this ship... The Queen named HMS Eagle back in 19 46. A ship that | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
was commissioned by Churchill's wartime government and Britain has | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
replaced its carriers only once since then. The new ship is expected | :22:16. | :22:24. | |
to last in service into the 20 60s. The Queen Elizabeth, and its sister, | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
the much less complete Prince of Wales, are vast. A deck area of two | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
football pitches. It's not as big as the Chinese carrier, nor the US | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
Super carriers. It's still huge It is also a bit of a moment for | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
Britain, which is currently without an aircraft carrier that can field | :22:44. | :22:53. | |
planes. There are questions over the effectiveness of the investment | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
First, the the Queen Elizabeth won't be kited out until 2020. The | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
Government has to decide whether to sell or mothball The Prince of | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
Wales. Only 48 of the F35 planes it will fly off the ships are on order. | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
More will come, but we don't know how many. If we get these ships | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
kited out well, do we have the ships that we need to protect the | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
carriers? The science, in terms of protecting a carrier, requires a | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
force of between five and seven destroyers alone. A similar size | :23:35. | :23:46. | |
number of frigates. Now, the UK only possesses 19 frigates and destroyers | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
combined. They are probably isn t the number of ships that you require | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
to protect this carrier if you don't want to associate some sort of risk | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
with it. So if we don't spend money on the planes that make carriers | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
into weapons, or the supporting ships that allow them to roam, might | :24:05. | :24:12. | |
this be remembered as a national vanity project? | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
Joining me now, Admiral Lord West, former First Sea Lord, | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
and Professor Mary Kaldor, Professor of Global Governance, at LSE. | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
Thank you for coming in. Lord West what is the point of this ship? We | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
can deploy military power globally. We are still a global nation. We are | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
the sixth richest country in the world. Our wealth depends on the | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
fact we run global shipping from the UK. | :24:42. | :24:42. | |
world. Our wealth depends on the fact we run global That is crucial | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
to the wealth of the global village. Biggest European investor in most | :24:48. | :24:49. | |
parts of the world. The stability of the globe is very, very important to | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
us. It requires most of the Royal Navy to support it and protect it | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
The young man speaking, I'm able to call him a "young man" got his | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
figures wrong. You actually need - I have done it at sea. You need two | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
type 45's with three or four ASW frigates or one or two nuclear | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
submarines. We can provide that force. We have too few ships, we | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
have had too many cuts for many years. Even when we did something, | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
into Sierra Leone, it was with a ship half that size? That force we | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
are talking about there is if you fight against someone like the | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
Chinese. Is that what we have planned? We don't know what will | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
happen. The great thing in the military you don't know what will | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
happen. People will tell me - you will never have to fight anyone | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
apart from the solve yets. I was sunk in the Falklands. None of us | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
know what will happen. The military is to be ready for the unknown. It's | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
about an important projection of our power and our place in the world as | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
well as protecting against the unknown, isn't it sf Well, that is | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
what it is meant to be about. I think our place in the world would | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
be better assured if we could really play and continue to play an active | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
role in all kinds of humanitarian crises, conflicts, natural disasters | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
and the problem with this is that it so expensive. Everything is focussed | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
on these two carriers, that we're having to cut everything that might | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
be useful for these other purposes. The humanitarian argument, | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
presumably, you would get rid of all spending on defence then, would you? | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
I would get rid of spending on what I call "military technology" which | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
the aircraft carrier. What does that mean in layman's terms? The aircraft | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
carrier, the Eurofighter, Trident, which are - which become more and | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
more expensive with every generation and less and less useful. They | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
developed beyond the point of cost effectiveness. So much is focussed | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
on them they become complex. They need more and more parts. Liable to | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
break down and not to work. The everything else is squeezed. I think | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
they are about what we used to call, during the Cold War, the military | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
industrial complex. About a combination of the armed forces | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
wanting to reassert their traditional roles and us wanting | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
defence and industrial capacity to meet those roles. I think that is | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
totally run. The carriers will run better than the old carriers. Things | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
used to break down more than they do now. What is the capital cost per | :27:39. | :27:48. | |
year, ?6 million. ?1 trillion the West have spent in aid in the Horn | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
of Africa. The average wealth of each person has gone down. The only | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
way to get to places to help them out, very often when there is a | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
disaster is by sea in a ship. This carrier will be brilliant at that. | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
That is an argument in favour of humanitarian usefulness. If you | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
relinquish this and we became a less valuable partner in - We wouldn t. | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
We are good at these things. We had to cut the army. You really need | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
people. You need a mixture of civilian and military cape yablts. | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
You need lower tech and a lot more of it. Transport capabilities. You | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
can't swim to where these happens. You could take smaller boats? Ships | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
please. The scale of the ship. It isn't, it's ?6 million a year, as a | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
capital cost for this. ?6 million a year is nothing. What about the | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
jobs? 10,000 jobs sustained on a project like that. Doesn't it wash | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
its face with that number alone If you put the money into investment | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
into energy efficiency or renewable energy, you would not only create | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
the same number of jobs it would have a multiplier effect on growth. | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
It would be much more effective at creating jobs. The military | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
industrial complex operates - This is pie in the sky. This is pie in | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
the sky. Perhaps fighting a war with the Chinese, wouldn't that be a | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
cyber war? We don't know what will happen. You need to have equipment - | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
in the military you need to plan for the unexpected. ?6 billion? ?6 | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
million over a year over 50 years is not a lot of money. We have run out. | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
I'm sorry. Thank you very much indeed. That is it for tonight. We | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
leave you with news of a psychology experiment at Harvard University | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
which revealed that most men, and some women, would choose to give | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
themselves painful electric shocks rather than being bored for 15 | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
minutes. At Newsnight we are rather than being bored for 15 | :29:47. | :30:17. | |
ara? No, lone rather than being bored for 15 | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
have been rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud | :30:21. | :30:45. | |
plandy of senny rpells rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud | :30:46. | :31:03. | |
showers for rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
Isles, more disappointing here in | :31:11. | :31:21. |