04/07/2014 Newsnight


04/07/2014

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the number of OAPs behind bars has doubled in ten years.

:00:07.:00:10.

Rolf Harris, sentenced today, fits the trend -

:00:11.:00:12.

four out of ten of them are sex offenders.

:00:13.:00:14.

Are the jails fit to cope, and does anyone care if they're not?

:00:15.:00:23.

Because I was older, I was perceived to be easy game, so until they got

:00:24.:00:31.

to know you, people would bundle you into your cell and half of your

:00:32.:00:32.

stuff was gone. As Palestinians gather

:00:33.:00:34.

to bury their murdered teenager Newsnight speaks exclusively

:00:35.:00:36.

to the Palestinian group Hamas. Will our new aircraft carrier

:00:37.:00:47.

save the realm? Or is it a truly massive

:00:48.:00:49.

waste of money? Just don't call it a boat, or this

:00:50.:00:54.

man will get very cross! Rolf Harris was given a custodial

:00:55.:01:02.

sentence today of nearly six years. No sooner had it been handed down

:01:03.:01:06.

than the Attorney General received complaints from the public

:01:07.:01:09.

that it was too lenient. The 84-year-old

:01:10.:01:12.

Australian entertainer may not be dwelling on statistics

:01:13.:01:14.

right now, but when he looks around his prison,

:01:15.:01:17.

he will find he's part of a growing trend -

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two in fact. Four out of ten men who are over

:01:21.:01:22.

60 are in prison for sex offences. And the number

:01:23.:01:26.

of prisoner pensioners Here's Jim Reed

:01:27.:01:28.

on a remarkable phenomenon 84 years old, he'll now serve

:01:29.:01:32.

a near six-year sentence. His victims will finally

:01:33.:01:50.

see some justice. But Harris is just

:01:51.:01:52.

the latest pensioner to be locked up

:01:53.:01:54.

for historic sex abuse. Along with Max Clifford

:01:55.:01:56.

and Stuart Hall, he's part of a wider

:01:57.:01:58.

and rarely reported trend. the fastest-growing category

:01:59.:02:00.

of prisoner is now the elderly. be placed on

:02:01.:02:04.

the vulnerable person unit, and probably in isolation

:02:05.:02:11.

in a cell on his own Andrew, now in his 60s,

:02:12.:02:13.

has just been released after serving four years

:02:14.:02:17.

for sexual assault on another adult. You can imagine him

:02:18.:02:21.

walking onto a wing and everybody singing his songs

:02:22.:02:23.

and shouting things at him. It can be very intimidating, because

:02:24.:02:27.

usually, when you're in your 50s and later, you've been in control

:02:28.:02:30.

of your life most of the time. From that moment on,

:02:31.:02:34.

you become a number. The prison population has not

:02:35.:02:38.

just grown over the last decade DNA evidence and the fresh

:02:39.:02:41.

investigation of historic crimes behind the changing demographics

:02:42.:02:46.

of our criminal justice system. The number of over-60s in prison

:02:47.:02:52.

has jumped 120% Last month, a 94-year-old was jailed

:02:53.:02:56.

for abusing a child in the 1970s. 42% of all older inmates

:02:57.:03:08.

are inside for sex offences, far higher than the wider

:03:09.:03:11.

prison population at 15%. Nobody will want to know you,

:03:12.:03:15.

you are the worst of the worst. If you knowingly associate

:03:16.:03:18.

with a high-profile sex offender, you'll be tarred

:03:19.:03:21.

with the same brush. Other prisoners will shun you

:03:22.:03:23.

or bully you. Did you have direct experience

:03:24.:03:27.

of bullying when you were inside? Because I was older, I was perceived

:03:28.:03:31.

to be more easy, easy game. people would bundle you

:03:32.:03:36.

into your cell and before you realised it

:03:37.:03:40.

half your stuff was gone. Do you report it and get labelled

:03:41.:03:43.

as a grass and get done again? Or just put up with it

:03:44.:03:49.

and try to get on? Longer sentences and

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an ageing population in general are also adding to the pressure

:03:55.:03:57.

on the prison system. on an older convict

:03:58.:04:02.

than the typical prisoner. have a chronic illness

:04:03.:04:09.

or disability. We could fill

:04:10.:04:15.

eight average size jails simply with prisoners

:04:16.:04:18.

who are over the age of 60. And of course the big problem

:04:19.:04:22.

for the Prison Service is that this demographic

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is going to become more pronounced, because the second-fastest

:04:25.:04:30.

group of people that we are locking up at the moment

:04:31.:04:32.

are aged between 50 and 59. So by every stretch

:04:33.:04:36.

of the imagination, this is a problem

:04:37.:04:40.

that is going to get worse. Pete was released last year

:04:41.:04:45.

after serving time for murder. Now in his late 70s, he says

:04:46.:04:48.

he's seen prisons age significantly Well, in my experience, there was

:04:49.:04:52.

a great element of resentment amongst quite a few prison officers

:04:53.:04:59.

when managing older prisoners. is quite different

:05:00.:05:02.

from that of younger prisoners. The younger ones are aggressive

:05:03.:05:07.

in-your-face, confrontational. The staff are more used to dealing

:05:08.:05:16.

with that kind of prisoner, A handful of prisons,

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like Norwich and Leyhill, Whatton near Nottingham

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has a dedicated end-of-life suite. But the steep staircases and

:05:26.:05:33.

narrow doors of Victorian buildings, were not built for wheelchairs

:05:34.:05:36.

or sticks, or for inmates with diabetes

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and dementia. I have no problem walking up to a

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60-year-old or a 70-year-old or a dear old who has committed a violent

:05:51.:05:52.

or sexual offence. is an institution which

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is designed for the young and cannot really cope

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with this type of demographic, which is why we have to keep asking

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the Ministry of Justice, when are they going to produce

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a national strategy pronounced, specialist geriatric

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centres cater for the old and dying. Former inmates who work with older

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prisoners say we need to be looking at the same thing in this country.

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do we have special prisons for older people, secure care homes

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If they are going to be given life sentences,

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The cost to the Prison Service is enormous,

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so with the longer sentence, there's a cost implication for them,

:06:45.:06:47.

not only whilst they're inside but when they come out.

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Rolf Harris is likely to be at least 87 by the time he's released.

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There will be no sympathy for him after the crimes he has committed.

:07:00.:07:09.

But he is just one of many. The prison population is getting older,

:07:10.:07:13.

and that has consequences for society as a whole.

:07:14.:07:16.

Murder was met with murder in the Middle East this week,

:07:17.:07:18.

Old Testament echoes of a truly biblical eye for an eye.

:07:19.:07:21.

Today, Palestinians buried their dead teenager -

:07:22.:07:23.

for the killing of three Israeli teenagers

:07:24.:07:25.

who were themselves buried three days earlier.

:07:26.:07:27.

Today Hamas was quoted as saying the organisation was ready

:07:28.:07:30.

to halt its rocket and mortar attacks on southern Israel

:07:31.:07:32.

if the Israeli military ceased its air raids on Gaza

:07:33.:07:34.

as part of a cease-fire deal brokered by Egyptian officials.

:07:35.:07:37.

We will ask Hamas about that in just a moment.

:07:38.:07:39.

First, our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban,

:07:40.:07:41.

has spent the past few days in the West Bank,

:07:42.:07:43.

where the Israeli teenagers were killed.

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We can talk to him now from Jerusalem.

:07:45.:07:48.

Mark, are the Israelis any closer to finding the killers?

:07:49.:07:56.

Well, we believe they are, but you know, the fact that this was a

:07:57.:08:02.

Jewish revenge murder, characterise it that way, if you like, of the

:08:03.:08:08.

teenager in Jerusalem, Mohammed Abu Khdair, is not officially confirmed

:08:09.:08:13.

by police here, and that is part of a strategy of slowly releasing the

:08:14.:08:16.

awful truth of what happened in order to minimise the into communal

:08:17.:08:21.

violence that results. So for example, details of horrific

:08:22.:08:24.

injuries to the boy were kept under wraps for a while, and the reason of

:08:25.:08:28.

his body was timed so that it would be after Friday prayers. --

:08:29.:08:33.

release. That was in order to try to reduce the level of violence that

:08:34.:08:37.

might result. Does the Israeli public support the way that Prime

:08:38.:08:44.

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is dealing with this? Well, this

:08:45.:08:48.

management of this is all part of what the Prime Minister is thought

:08:49.:08:51.

to be doing in trying to keep a lid on the situation, and it is

:08:52.:08:54.

interesting - he is perceived by many as a centrist leader in this

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respect, shunning the cause of extreme nationalists for drastic,

:09:00.:09:03.

heavy military action against Gaza, against the West Bank. Now, of

:09:04.:09:08.

course, if are you Palestinian, you have a very different perspective on

:09:09.:09:12.

that, particularly in the area of Hebron, where three Israeli

:09:13.:09:16.

teenagers were kidnapped, and where they have been subject to intensive

:09:17.:09:21.

Israeli security operations. When the violence has moved on,

:09:22.:09:29.

families are left with the simple, inconsolable facts of their loss.

:09:30.:09:34.

Last month, in their hunt for three kidnapped teenagers, Israeli forces

:09:35.:09:40.

came to this town near Hebron, and in their food took the life of

:09:41.:09:48.

another teenager, a Palestinian -- their fruitless search. His mother

:09:49.:09:52.

does not believe that any Israeli boys were kidnapped, and she wants

:09:53.:09:58.

revenge. TRANSLATION: Its settlers were really kidnapped, and to me it

:09:59.:10:01.

is still a far-fetched idea, then let them see what I am going

:10:02.:10:06.

through. My heart burned, let them see how that feels, so they will

:10:07.:10:10.

know what it is like and how we suffer. 300 Palestinian sons dying

:10:11.:10:16.

for one Israeli son, why should a Jewish mother not go through what I

:10:17.:10:20.

am going through? They are the settlers, the ones who have taken

:10:21.:10:24.

our land. I wish my son had done the kidnapped.

:10:25.:10:31.

In Jerusalem, there is anger too at the murder of another Palestinian

:10:32.:10:37.

teenager. It is suspected it was a vigilante killing by Jewish

:10:38.:10:42.

extremists, and trying to contain this tit for tat of abductions,

:10:43.:10:47.

Israel's Prime Minister has insisted that if there is to be payback, the

:10:48.:10:56.

state alone should exact date. - it. The foremost right without which

:10:57.:11:01.

the others cannot exist is the right to live, and that is why we pursued

:11:02.:11:13.

the murderers of the three boys They denied them that basic right in

:11:14.:11:18.

such a cruel way. And that is why I unequivocally condemn the murder of

:11:19.:11:25.

a Palestinian youth in Jerusalem two days ago.

:11:26.:11:30.

In Hebron, where settlers and Palestinians live cheek by jowl the

:11:31.:11:36.

risk of further violence is obvious. For Israelis, continued operations

:11:37.:11:40.

aimed at finding the kidnappers or harming Hamas are a clear necessity.

:11:41.:11:47.

But they are full of risk. We were summoned to the Hebron neighbourhood

:11:48.:11:52.

where we were told Israeli troops had trashed the milk plant on

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Wednesday night. There we found a group of protesting orphans, a field

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day for the local media. The plant belongs to a religious charity set

:12:04.:12:08.

up to help the orphans. The Israelis have stripped out its equipment

:12:09.:12:15.

So why would they have carried off an entire milk production plant

:12:16.:12:20.

Well, Israelis don't have much regard for Palestinian opinion, they

:12:21.:12:23.

know they are already highly unpopular here, but perhaps they

:12:24.:12:27.

were hoping to impress domestic Israeli opinion, because this plant

:12:28.:12:32.

is largely owned by a religious charity which the Israelis say have

:12:33.:12:37.

been used to channel funds towards Hamas and other militant movements.

:12:38.:12:44.

So we asked the head of the charity whether he was a Hamas fundraiser.

:12:45.:12:50.

These allegations are false and there is no proof or reality to

:12:51.:12:54.

them. They are all completely contrary to the aims and mission of

:12:55.:12:59.

this organisation. Hamas uses this network to

:13:00.:13:03.

indoctrinate Palestinians... The Israeli response, he would say that,

:13:04.:13:08.

wouldn't he? They insisted steel Newsnight that the plant was run by

:13:09.:13:12.

Hamas activists and their move against it was part of a drive

:13:13.:13:16.

against the religious charities Even if that is right, imagine

:13:17.:13:21.

smashing up the milk plant would only embitter local opinion. But

:13:22.:13:28.

against an underground organisation like Hamas in the West Bank there

:13:29.:13:35.

are a few obvious targets. Hamas is not a building that can be destroyed

:13:36.:13:40.

by laser-guided missiles not a building that can be destroyed

:13:41.:13:46.

by laser-guided or by large army bulldozers. Hamas lives in the

:13:47.:13:53.

hearts of millions of people who reject the Israeli occupation. The

:13:54.:14:00.

Israeli security clamp-down around Hebron continues, and the

:14:01.:14:05.

Palestinian authority's security forces are left with little more to

:14:06.:14:11.

do than direct the traffic. So the mayor, part of the Fatah faction

:14:12.:14:14.

that supports dialogue, is left feeling humiliated and longing for

:14:15.:14:19.

the resumption of a meaningful peace process.

:14:20.:14:22.

I urge the international community and the United Nations,

:14:23.:14:27.

really to push hard to push hard on the Israeli government so that this

:14:28.:14:31.

issue can be taken seriously and we as Palestinians, as I said, we are

:14:32.:14:34.

The day and the Ramadan fast draw to an end

:14:35.:14:41.

These are difficult times here for the crankiness

:14:42.:14:47.

of abstinence combines with the resentment of Israelis

:14:48.:14:49.

I'm working to teach our youth how to react in an unviolent way.

:14:50.:14:57.

But what I do when big violence is happening from the other side?

:14:58.:15:00.

I can't tell them, please what are you doing.

:15:01.:15:02.

Both of us will be lose in the situation.

:15:03.:15:09.

Reaching no solution point is my nightmare.

:15:10.:15:16.

Somewhere around here those who kidnapped and

:15:17.:15:18.

murdered three Israeli teens could be hiding, as well as armed cells

:15:19.:15:21.

No western country doubts Israel's right to tackle this threat,

:15:22.:15:26.

but the operations of the past few weeks have brought

:15:27.:15:28.

That was Mark Urban in the West Bank. Osama Hamdan is the foreign

:15:29.:15:52.

affairs spokesman for Hamas based in Lebanon. Thank you for your time

:15:53.:15:58.

tonight on Newsnightment we heard a ceasefire has been declared with

:15:59.:16:05.

Egypt's help, is that right? Well, it's not confirmed yet. There is an

:16:06.:16:14.

Egyptian (inaudible) to do that The Israelis broke the last ceasefire.

:16:15.:16:17.

We are still waiting to have confirmation from the Egyptian side

:16:18.:16:21.

and some guarantees the Israelis will not attack after that. They

:16:22.:16:28.

haven't agreed a ceasefire yet then? Well, it's on the Israeli side. We

:16:29.:16:33.

are still waiting. Hamas has been blamed for the abduction of the

:16:34.:16:36.

Israeli teenagers we saw in Mark's film. Who do you believe was behind

:16:37.:16:45.

that abduction and murder? Well Hamas has declared clearly, from the

:16:46.:16:50.

highest level in Hamas, that we have no information about what exactly

:16:51.:16:57.

happened in the West Bank and what had happened with those Israelis.

:16:58.:17:01.

This is the fact, which everyone has to know. The Israeli side, until

:17:02.:17:08.

now, did not provide any (inaudible). The Israelis have used

:17:09.:17:14.

that story to arrest, kill, and arrest hundreds of Palestinians

:17:15.:17:19.

destroying houses, without any clue that the Palestinians are connected

:17:20.:17:24.

to that issue. And here we are seeing a new uprising for the

:17:25.:17:37.

(inaudible) inside Israel. What had happened, he was kidnapped, shot. He

:17:38.:17:42.

was forced to swallow gasoline then he was burnt alive to death. Let me

:17:43.:17:51.

take this step-by-step. Do you condemn, first of all, the murder of

:17:52.:17:57.

the teenager. We heard Netanyahu condemning the murder of the

:17:58.:18:01.

Palestinian boy. Do you condemn the murder of the Israelis? Netanyahu is

:18:02.:18:06.

occupying our lands. Netanyahu is occupying the Palestinian lands Do

:18:07.:18:10.

you condemn the murder of the teenage boys? In 2013. In 2013, 400

:18:11.:18:19.

attacks by the settlers were against the Palestinians in the West Bank.

:18:20.:18:23.

You don't condemn the murder of the boys. It's a simple question? Excuse

:18:24.:18:29.

me. It's not a fair question to ask Palestinians who are under

:18:30.:18:32.

occupation and being killed every day about their ideas towards the

:18:33.:18:37.

occupiers. It's - the fair question is, what about the occupation?

:18:38.:18:42.

No-one has the right to escape from the major problem. The problem is

:18:43.:18:45.

the occupation. I believe everyone has to condemn the occupation and

:18:46.:18:51.

push Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian lands and make pressure

:18:52.:18:56.

on Netanyahu not to sabotage and destroy the peace process and taking

:18:57.:19:01.

over the Palestinian lands. The Israeli Foreign Ministry said 1 200

:19:02.:19:06.

people have been killed in violence and terrorism since 2000. Clearly,

:19:07.:19:09.

there are deaths on both sides. Have you given up on a two-state solution

:19:10.:19:17.

now? I think Netanyahu is destroying the two-state solution - What about

:19:18.:19:22.

you? No-one can talk about two-state solution. I believe Abbas is

:19:23.:19:29.

insisting on the two-state solution he was supported by the

:19:30.:19:33.

organisations - You say "chance would you like to - Listen, and

:19:34.:19:40.

listen, well, I'd like to see a Palestinian independent sovereign

:19:41.:19:42.

state on Palestinian lands. I'm not in favour of talking about Israeli

:19:43.:19:45.

side. We are under occupation. You have to ask the Israelis whether

:19:46.:19:49.

they are ready to give up their occupation for the Palestinian lands

:19:50.:19:52.

or not? What do you mean, you are not in favour of talking about do

:19:53.:19:56.

you think that Israel should carry on existing as a state? Well, the

:19:57.:20:05.

fairer question is to ask about the Palestinian people and how they are

:20:06.:20:09.

suffering under the occupation. You can't ask the Palestinians who are

:20:10.:20:15.

being killed every day about their ideas about Israel. The major idea

:20:16.:20:19.

now is to resist the occupation and make an end for this occupation

:20:20.:20:22.

now is to resist the occupation and that is not happening, you

:20:23.:20:24.

now is to resist the occupation and the Palestinians any questions. The

:20:25.:20:25.

Palestinians are asking the questions about the international

:20:26.:20:28.

community. The position of the international community towards

:20:29.:20:33.

their cause. The Palestinians are asking about what does it mean, the

:20:34.:20:37.

international resolution, the international resolutions if it s

:20:38.:20:42.

not forcing the Israelis to withdraw from their hands and stopping the

:20:43.:20:45.

killing of the Palestinians. We will ask the same questions to the

:20:46.:20:48.

Israelis, as I'm sure you know. Thank you very much indeed.

:20:49.:20:57.

It seems slightly mean spirited - given the Royal turnout, the panoply

:20:58.:21:00.

and the ?6.2 billion price tag to point out that the new aircraft

:21:01.:21:06.

carrier will not be carrying any aircraft for some time.

:21:07.:21:08.

That's jobs in Scotland before a referendum, you understand.

:21:09.:21:13.

It's given the nation a sense of its naval pride once again, remind

:21:14.:21:16.

the world of our commitment to the defence industry and indeed defence.

:21:17.:21:19.

But returning, just for a minute, to the ?6.2 billion price tag, can

:21:20.:21:22.

Here's our policy editor, Chris Cook.

:21:23.:21:28.

The Second World War, the Falklands, the Balkans, the Gulf, Afghanistan.

:21:29.:21:37.

Scores of humanitarian efforts. Aircraft carriers are main stays of

:21:38.:21:44.

British sea power. Today, one Queen Elizabeth christened another. Le a

:21:45.:21:48.

new carrier was named in Rosyth the first of two on the production line.

:21:49.:21:54.

These ships are expensive, costing ?6 billion a pair. They do last a

:21:55.:22:00.

long time. NEWS REEL:

:22:01.:22:06.

I name this ship... The Queen named HMS Eagle back in 19 46. A ship that

:22:07.:22:11.

was commissioned by Churchill's wartime government and Britain has

:22:12.:22:15.

replaced its carriers only once since then. The new ship is expected

:22:16.:22:24.

to last in service into the 20 60s. The Queen Elizabeth, and its sister,

:22:25.:22:29.

the much less complete Prince of Wales, are vast. A deck area of two

:22:30.:22:34.

football pitches. It's not as big as the Chinese carrier, nor the US

:22:35.:22:39.

Super carriers. It's still huge It is also a bit of a moment for

:22:40.:22:43.

Britain, which is currently without an aircraft carrier that can field

:22:44.:22:53.

planes. There are questions over the effectiveness of the investment

:22:54.:23:00.

First, the the Queen Elizabeth won't be kited out until 2020. The

:23:01.:23:05.

Government has to decide whether to sell or mothball The Prince of

:23:06.:23:10.

Wales. Only 48 of the F35 planes it will fly off the ships are on order.

:23:11.:23:16.

More will come, but we don't know how many. If we get these ships

:23:17.:23:21.

kited out well, do we have the ships that we need to protect the

:23:22.:23:28.

carriers? The science, in terms of protecting a carrier, requires a

:23:29.:23:34.

force of between five and seven destroyers alone. A similar size

:23:35.:23:46.

number of frigates. Now, the UK only possesses 19 frigates and destroyers

:23:47.:23:50.

combined. They are probably isn t the number of ships that you require

:23:51.:23:54.

to protect this carrier if you don't want to associate some sort of risk

:23:55.:24:00.

with it. So if we don't spend money on the planes that make carriers

:24:01.:24:04.

into weapons, or the supporting ships that allow them to roam, might

:24:05.:24:12.

this be remembered as a national vanity project?

:24:13.:24:18.

Joining me now, Admiral Lord West, former First Sea Lord,

:24:19.:24:20.

and Professor Mary Kaldor, Professor of Global Governance, at LSE.

:24:21.:24:23.

Thank you for coming in. Lord West what is the point of this ship? We

:24:24.:24:33.

can deploy military power globally. We are still a global nation. We are

:24:34.:24:37.

the sixth richest country in the world. Our wealth depends on the

:24:38.:24:41.

fact we run global shipping from the UK.

:24:42.:24:42.

world. Our wealth depends on the fact we run global That is crucial

:24:43.:24:47.

to the wealth of the global village. Biggest European investor in most

:24:48.:24:49.

parts of the world. The stability of the globe is very, very important to

:24:50.:24:53.

us. It requires most of the Royal Navy to support it and protect it

:24:54.:24:59.

The young man speaking, I'm able to call him a "young man" got his

:25:00.:25:05.

figures wrong. You actually need - I have done it at sea. You need two

:25:06.:25:11.

type 45's with three or four ASW frigates or one or two nuclear

:25:12.:25:15.

submarines. We can provide that force. We have too few ships, we

:25:16.:25:21.

have had too many cuts for many years. Even when we did something,

:25:22.:25:26.

into Sierra Leone, it was with a ship half that size? That force we

:25:27.:25:30.

are talking about there is if you fight against someone like the

:25:31.:25:33.

Chinese. Is that what we have planned? We don't know what will

:25:34.:25:36.

happen. The great thing in the military you don't know what will

:25:37.:25:39.

happen. People will tell me - you will never have to fight anyone

:25:40.:25:43.

apart from the solve yets. I was sunk in the Falklands. None of us

:25:44.:25:47.

know what will happen. The military is to be ready for the unknown. It's

:25:48.:25:51.

about an important projection of our power and our place in the world as

:25:52.:25:55.

well as protecting against the unknown, isn't it sf Well, that is

:25:56.:26:00.

what it is meant to be about. I think our place in the world would

:26:01.:26:04.

be better assured if we could really play and continue to play an active

:26:05.:26:11.

role in all kinds of humanitarian crises, conflicts, natural disasters

:26:12.:26:16.

and the problem with this is that it so expensive. Everything is focussed

:26:17.:26:20.

on these two carriers, that we're having to cut everything that might

:26:21.:26:26.

be useful for these other purposes. The humanitarian argument,

:26:27.:26:28.

presumably, you would get rid of all spending on defence then, would you?

:26:29.:26:36.

I would get rid of spending on what I call "military technology" which

:26:37.:26:42.

the aircraft carrier. What does that mean in layman's terms? The aircraft

:26:43.:26:48.

carrier, the Eurofighter, Trident, which are - which become more and

:26:49.:26:52.

more expensive with every generation and less and less useful. They

:26:53.:26:59.

developed beyond the point of cost effectiveness. So much is focussed

:27:00.:27:04.

on them they become complex. They need more and more parts. Liable to

:27:05.:27:12.

break down and not to work. The everything else is squeezed. I think

:27:13.:27:16.

they are about what we used to call, during the Cold War, the military

:27:17.:27:20.

industrial complex. About a combination of the armed forces

:27:21.:27:25.

wanting to reassert their traditional roles and us wanting

:27:26.:27:30.

defence and industrial capacity to meet those roles. I think that is

:27:31.:27:34.

totally run. The carriers will run better than the old carriers. Things

:27:35.:27:38.

used to break down more than they do now. What is the capital cost per

:27:39.:27:48.

year, ?6 million. ?1 trillion the West have spent in aid in the Horn

:27:49.:27:52.

of Africa. The average wealth of each person has gone down. The only

:27:53.:27:55.

way to get to places to help them out, very often when there is a

:27:56.:28:01.

disaster is by sea in a ship. This carrier will be brilliant at that.

:28:02.:28:05.

That is an argument in favour of humanitarian usefulness. If you

:28:06.:28:11.

relinquish this and we became a less valuable partner in - We wouldn t.

:28:12.:28:16.

We are good at these things. We had to cut the army. You really need

:28:17.:28:21.

people. You need a mixture of civilian and military cape yablts.

:28:22.:28:25.

You need lower tech and a lot more of it. Transport capabilities. You

:28:26.:28:32.

can't swim to where these happens. You could take smaller boats? Ships

:28:33.:28:39.

please. The scale of the ship. It isn't, it's ?6 million a year, as a

:28:40.:28:43.

capital cost for this. ?6 million a year is nothing. What about the

:28:44.:28:47.

jobs? 10,000 jobs sustained on a project like that. Doesn't it wash

:28:48.:28:52.

its face with that number alone If you put the money into investment

:28:53.:28:57.

into energy efficiency or renewable energy, you would not only create

:28:58.:29:01.

the same number of jobs it would have a multiplier effect on growth.

:29:02.:29:06.

It would be much more effective at creating jobs. The military

:29:07.:29:09.

industrial complex operates - This is pie in the sky. This is pie in

:29:10.:29:15.

the sky. Perhaps fighting a war with the Chinese, wouldn't that be a

:29:16.:29:18.

cyber war? We don't know what will happen. You need to have equipment -

:29:19.:29:23.

in the military you need to plan for the unexpected. ?6 billion? ?6

:29:24.:29:28.

million over a year over 50 years is not a lot of money. We have run out.

:29:29.:29:31.

I'm sorry. Thank you very much indeed. That is it for tonight. We

:29:32.:29:36.

leave you with news of a psychology experiment at Harvard University

:29:37.:29:39.

which revealed that most men, and some women, would choose to give

:29:40.:29:44.

themselves painful electric shocks rather than being bored for 15

:29:45.:29:46.

minutes. At Newsnight we are rather than being bored for 15

:29:47.:30:17.

ara? No, lone rather than being bored for 15

:30:18.:30:20.

have been rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud

:30:21.:30:45.

plandy of senny rpells rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud

:30:46.:31:03.

showers for rain. he dbizzle eases, the cloud

:31:04.:31:10.

Isles, more disappointing here in

:31:11.:31:21.

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