22/07/2014 Newsnight


22/07/2014

With Kirsty Wark. Looking at the latest on the MH17 plane crash, Marina Litvinenko on her husband, Gaza, whether obscuring corpses' faces is wrong, and English football.


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Transcript


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Many of the bodies from the Malaysian airline plane crash

:00:07.:00:09.

are on their way home, the recovered black boxes are heading to the UK

:00:10.:00:14.

for analysis but are investigators any nearer to knowing what exactly

:00:15.:00:18.

Was the Kremlin behind the death of Alexander Litvinenko?

:00:19.:00:26.

Seven years after his murder, the Government has finally agreed to

:00:27.:00:30.

This is a very grave allegation that has to be examined. We have to get

:00:31.:00:41.

to the bottom of it. If the price of it is some of the material being

:00:42.:00:45.

examine bed hind closed doorsI for one would accept that. We speak to

:00:46.:00:51.

Marina Litvinenko. Obscuring the faces of the dead. Is this an act of

:00:52.:00:56.

respect by broadcasters or has television no right to censor what

:00:57.:00:59.

we see of war? And, after a disastrous England

:01:00.:01:03.

World Cup performance, does football's governing body need to

:01:04.:01:07.

take some of the blame? I'll ask Greg Dyke, the chair of the FA.

:01:08.:01:17.

The bodies of many of the passengers on flight MH 17 are

:01:18.:01:21.

finally on their way home, six days after their plane was attacked.

:01:22.:01:25.

There are reported to be the remains of 282 people on the train now in

:01:26.:01:29.

There is to be a service of farewell in the Ukranian town at

:01:30.:01:35.

9am tomorrow before the first flight takes off for Eindhoven airport.

:01:36.:01:40.

Tomorrow is a day of national mourning in the Netherlands.

:01:41.:01:44.

Gabriel Gatehouse was at the crash site todayIt's taken seven years of

:01:45.:01:56.

We hear there's been a statement from the US State Department. What

:01:57.:02:03.

does its contain? Officials briefing journalists anonymously in

:02:04.:02:06.

Washington said they could find no evidence of direct Russian

:02:07.:02:10.

involvement in the downing of MH 16 17. They said they still thought it

:02:11.:02:15.

was likely to have been brought down by a surface-to-air missile in

:02:16.:02:18.

rebel-controlled territory inside Ukraine. They said they thought that

:02:19.:02:22.

Russia had created the conditions for the downing of the plane by

:02:23.:02:27.

arming the separatists, but they stopped short of saying that Russia

:02:28.:02:33.

armed them with this book surface-to-air missile system. No

:02:34.:02:35.

direct evidence of direct involvement. Those that believe

:02:36.:02:38.

Russia was involved, and there are many, will say that absence of

:02:39.:02:44.

evidence, the rebels themselves maintain they had nothing to do with

:02:45.:02:48.

it and further more didn't have the capability to bring down a plane at

:02:49.:02:54.

this height. We know Malaysian officials joined other

:02:55.:02:57.

investigators, there was tooing and froing with the rebels. What was

:02:58.:03:01.

happening? There were three Malaysian aviation

:03:02.:03:04.

experts on the site for the first time today, as opposed to forensic

:03:05.:03:08.

experts who'd been examining the bodies. They didn't say anything,

:03:09.:03:13.

but the OSCE, the European security organisation that's been here from

:03:14.:03:16.

the start accused people of tampering with the evidence, of

:03:17.:03:22.

taking a saw to some parts of the wreckage and started sawing it up. I

:03:23.:03:27.

didn't see that, but we saw what seemed to be a crucial bit of

:03:28.:03:31.

evidence, part of the fuse Raj - we can see some of the pictures we

:03:32.:03:36.

filmed today - it's the left hand part of the cockpit, what appears to

:03:37.:03:44.

be extensive shrapnel marks -- fuselage. Experts on these matters,

:03:45.:03:49.

military aviation experts say these marks are consistent with the kind

:03:50.:03:54.

of supersonic surface-to-air missile that they believe brought down this

:03:55.:03:57.

plane. We saw this bit of fuselage propped up by the side of a village

:03:58.:04:02.

lane that had been put there by a ten-year-old boy all these days

:04:03.:04:06.

after the crash left totally unattended what appears to be a

:04:07.:04:12.

crucial piece of evidence. There's dividing opinion about the bodies

:04:13.:04:17.

being put on the train and taken to Eindhoven. What do you know about

:04:18.:04:25.

that? It's said that they collected 282 out of the bodies. Dutch

:04:26.:04:33.

officials said today they thought the number was closer to 200. They

:04:34.:04:39.

are going to have to two back, and, as they put it, negotiate with the

:04:40.:04:44.

rebels. We have seen on Sunday, Monday and indeed today, that they

:04:45.:04:50.

are still pulling bodies from the wreckage. This leaves so much more

:04:51.:04:53.

uncertainty for the families back home, many of them, of course, in

:04:54.:04:57.

Holland, as you said, the first 50 of those will be flying from Ukraine

:04:58.:05:02.

back to Holland, but many of the relatives still no clearer as to

:05:03.:05:06.

whether their loved ones are on that flight or not.

:05:07.:05:07.

Thank you very much. Michael Bociurkiw, you have spent

:05:08.:05:23.

the last few days at the crash site. Can you tell us what you know of the

:05:24.:05:27.

tampering of some parts of the fuselage by rebels and where they

:05:28.:05:32.

actually -- and were they actually confronted when they began to do

:05:33.:05:35.

that? Good evening. Well, first of all, we

:05:36.:05:40.

have spent the past five days at the crash sites. We were the first

:05:41.:05:43.

International Organisation there on the scene. Of course. And secondly,

:05:44.:05:48.

if I may, I would like to correct the correspondent's tape in saying

:05:49.:05:52.

that we did not accuse anyone of tampering with the evidence from the

:05:53.:05:55.

crash site. We have said from day one to especially today when we were

:05:56.:06:00.

with the Malaysian experts is that we have noticed quite marked changes

:06:01.:06:05.

to some of the crash impact areas of which there are about eight. For

:06:06.:06:09.

example, Gabriel referred to that big piece of fuselage. Really the

:06:10.:06:15.

most burnt area of the crash site. That has been moved. Also, the

:06:16.:06:21.

really, really tough area to locate is where the cockpit came down and

:06:22.:06:27.

pancaked basically. We observed two days ago, uniformed men, emergency

:06:28.:06:31.

services uniformed men hacking away with the powered saw into the

:06:32.:06:35.

fuselage. We can't draw any conclusions from that, but whether

:06:36.:06:39.

they were looking for more human remains or not, we are not quite

:06:40.:06:42.

sure. How tough is this site in the sense

:06:43.:06:47.

that if anything's moved, does it make your job much more difficult to

:06:48.:06:55.

ascertain what actually happened? It does. I mean, we are there to

:06:56.:07:03.

establish the facts and to report on them and to facilitate dialogue

:07:04.:07:06.

also. What we have been doing all along is photographing the site

:07:07.:07:10.

day-by-day by day. So by now, we probably have about 1,000 images,

:07:11.:07:15.

and we'll be providing that to the authorities and to the Malaysians,

:07:16.:07:19.

so they'll be able to tell how much this site has changed. If I could

:07:20.:07:23.

add, I mean today there was almost an eerie quietness in the whole

:07:24.:07:29.

crash area. All the emergency rescue effort had disappeared, tents that

:07:30.:07:33.

were used to process the site have all gone, so it was basically us,

:07:34.:07:38.

our small security detail and about 17 journalists. The word

:07:39.:07:42.

extraordinary comes to mind really. But it's also a site, I understand,

:07:43.:07:48.

where there will still be remains. What do you know of that?

:07:49.:07:57.

Yes. In fact, today, we shared with our 57 states that we Didak chillily

:07:58.:08:03.

spot human remains and in some very obvious areas at the side of the

:08:04.:08:07.

roadway. I can also said that when we went again to the site where the

:08:08.:08:12.

cockpit came down, the Malaysian experts noted that although they

:08:13.:08:21.

couldn't see human remains, the own characteristics were there. We

:08:22.:08:26.

believe the amount of human remains left, it's quite substantial and it

:08:27.:08:32.

requires a massive search effort, it seems, to detect and collect all of

:08:33.:08:37.

them. Do you think that for the people that have been there - there

:08:38.:08:42.

are two different things there - there is an insecurity at the site,

:08:43.:08:47.

physically. What impact has it had? A number of rescue workers, local

:08:48.:08:51.

miners who helped, people like yourselves, what impact has it had

:08:52.:08:57.

on you all in being there? Well, thank you for asking that. I

:08:58.:09:04.

mean, we are Monitoring Mission of 275 monitors now from 40 different

:09:05.:09:08.

countries and many from very hardened missions from the past,

:09:09.:09:11.

many of us have worked emergencies, but I think most of us agree this is

:09:12.:09:16.

like nothing else we have seen in terms of the extraordinary nature of

:09:17.:09:20.

not having an act of rescue and recovery effort. Most importantly,

:09:21.:09:24.

from the moment we arrived there, not detecting any security

:09:25.:09:28.

perimeter. Also, just quickly, it is an act of conflict area. In fact,

:09:29.:09:34.

just behind me, I can hear heavy weaponry explosions going off here

:09:35.:09:38.

in Donetsk, it's a very insecure fluid area.

:09:39.:09:41.

Michael Bociurkiw, thank you so much for joining us.

:09:42.:09:44.

I will be speaking to a Dutch MEP later in the programme about how

:09:45.:09:49.

their nation prepares for the victims of flight MH17 to return

:09:50.:09:52.

home. It's taken seven years of pressure

:09:53.:09:56.

by Alexander Litvinenko's widow Marina and her supporters, but

:09:57.:09:59.

finally, there is to be a public inquiry into her husband's death.

:10:00.:10:04.

She believes he was working for MI6 and was murdered in London on orders

:10:05.:10:08.

from the Kremlin, something Russia denies. The decision is a complete

:10:09.:10:13.

volte fast by the Government now acting with certain knowledge that

:10:14.:10:19.

Vladimir Putin will be angered by the inquiry. Before the Home

:10:20.:10:22.

Secretary Theresa May dragged her heels refusing to grant the inquiry

:10:23.:10:26.

partly she admitted because of the impact on international relations.

:10:27.:10:28.

Today, that doesn't seem to be an issue any more.

:10:29.:10:36.

I do this, not against, not Russia, not England. I do this for justice.

:10:37.:10:42.

I do this for truth. Today, nearly eight years after her husband,

:10:43.:10:46.

Alexander Litvinenko east death, Marina, won a victory in the battle

:10:47.:10:50.

to discover how he died in circumstances that he explained on

:10:51.:10:52.

his death bed like this. The former KGB agent who turned into

:10:53.:11:16.

a fierce critic of the Kremlin said the Russian state organised the

:11:17.:11:20.

slipping of polonium into his tea at London's Mill enyum Hotel. That's

:11:21.:11:23.

never been proved. The Government's now announced a public inquiry which

:11:24.:11:28.

may do so. The key issue that will be examined

:11:29.:11:34.

by this public inquiry is the culpability of the Russian state.

:11:35.:11:40.

Apart from the suspects that remain named who were responsible for the

:11:41.:11:43.

murder of Alexander Litvinenko, it is important to find out what state

:11:44.:11:48.

agents acted in perpetrating the crime. How best to investigate crime

:11:49.:11:52.

has been the subject of a long legal wrangle. In June last year, the

:11:53.:11:58.

coroner in the Litvinenko inquest said a public inquiry would be the

:11:59.:12:01.

best way to look at all the evidence, including sensitive

:12:02.:12:03.

material relating to national security.

:12:04.:12:08.

In July, the Government said no. It insisted an inquest excluding such

:12:09.:12:12.

material would be adequate. In February, the High Court backed

:12:13.:12:16.

Marina Litvinenko's challenge to that decision. Today, on the last

:12:17.:12:20.

day of Parliament before the recess, the Government gave way for reasons

:12:21.:12:25.

that appear political, though that's officially denied.

:12:26.:12:28.

The Government said last year that fear of affecting Russian relations

:12:29.:12:32.

was one factor in its refusal to hold a public inquiry into

:12:33.:12:36.

Litvinenko's death. Now it seems that's no longer such a

:12:37.:12:39.

consideration. Today's decision may have nothing to do with the downing

:12:40.:12:44.

of the Malaysian airliner but it reflects a hardening in Britain's

:12:45.:12:47.

attitude towards Russia since the beginning of the Ukraine crisis.

:12:48.:12:50.

Those who're already seen the evidence in the Litvinenko case have

:12:51.:12:54.

no doubt what will be revealed. We obviously - considered all of the

:12:55.:13:00.

evidence very carefully indeed and, as far as I was considered, having

:13:01.:13:05.

done that, this case bore all the hallmarks of a state execution on

:13:06.:13:10.

the streets of our capital City and all the indications were, from the

:13:11.:13:15.

evidence I saw, that Russian state actors were involved in this murder.

:13:16.:13:20.

Russia's very unlikely to cooperate with the inquiry. It's refused to

:13:21.:13:25.

extradite Andrei Lugovoi, now a Russian politician, whom Britain

:13:26.:13:28.

wants to try for Alexander Litvinenko's murder. So the inquiry

:13:29.:13:32.

will rely principally on British information, including about the

:13:33.:13:35.

source of the radioactive polonium that killed him.

:13:36.:13:39.

Whatever evidence links the suspects who met Alexander Litvinenko in this

:13:40.:13:43.

hotel, with the Kremlin, will be provided by British intelligence and

:13:44.:13:48.

will be heard in closed session. If it convinces the judge, he may end

:13:49.:13:53.

up in effect branding Russia as a state sponsor of nuclear terrorism.

:13:54.:13:56.

That would bring Mr Putin's standing in the world to a new low. If the

:13:57.:14:00.

inquiry accepts the evidence and declares that to be the case, this

:14:01.:14:03.

is going to be very significant. It's going to obviously impact very

:14:04.:14:09.

profoundly on the UK's relations with Russia but it's also going to I

:14:10.:14:14.

think impact pretty deeply on the way the world views the Russian

:14:15.:14:17.

state. All the secrets about Litvinenko,

:14:18.:14:22.

including his exact relationship with British intelligence may still

:14:23.:14:25.

not be revealed in the inquiry, but much of the truth does now seem

:14:26.:14:28.

likely to emerge whatever the political fallout.

:14:29.:14:34.

Joining joining me now is Alexander Litvinenko's widow, Marina.

:14:35.:14:38.

Marina, did you ever think that you would finally get a public inquiry?

:14:39.:14:44.

Actually, yes. I did feel it. It's helped me to be, not calm, but to

:14:45.:14:50.

believe that one day I'd have justice. It's took quite a long time

:14:51.:14:55.

to wait for, almost one year from the first time, last July, when

:14:56.:14:59.

Theresa May just decline the rightful public inquiry. It was

:15:00.:15:03.

quite difficult period for all of us. Then suddenly the decision was

:15:04.:15:09.

changed? Yes. I would say it was expected but it was suddenly and

:15:10.:15:15.

particularly in this time when it's everything's strong, talking about

:15:16.:15:19.

Ukraine and Russia. Do you think that Vladimir Putin

:15:20.:15:24.

will be angered by the decision to hold an inquiry? I can't charge him

:15:25.:15:31.

personal, but I believe this decision will be very hard for

:15:32.:15:35.

somebody in Russia. You think that you know who did this

:15:36.:15:41.

to your husband? I can't say who exactly but it would be much easier

:15:42.:15:47.

to know after this public inquiry. But no matter that the public

:15:48.:15:52.

inquiry does identify the perpetrators of this crime, a public

:15:53.:15:57.

inquiry is not going to put anyone behind bars is it? No. Any trial

:15:58.:16:05.

that we have can't put anybody for trial personal because not Lugovoi,

:16:06.:16:10.

not named suspects. They are in Russia and it's not possible to get

:16:11.:16:17.

them to trial to London. It's only evidence what we have and the

:16:18.:16:21.

investigation what was done by Scotland Yard finally it will be

:16:22.:16:26.

came to public opinion and after this, people will certainly know

:16:27.:16:30.

about what happened. Of course, as you say, there's no question at the

:16:31.:16:35.

moment, I imagine, of any form of extradition no matter what the

:16:36.:16:39.

public inquiry finds, so therefore, for you, is it enough, do you think,

:16:40.:16:44.

to have a very clear idea of who killed your husband and leave it at

:16:45.:16:48.

that? I'm wondering what you think the public inquiry will achieve

:16:49.:16:52.

beyond that? I started the inquest after five years of Sasha's death.

:16:53.:16:58.

It's took me five years to go to this kind of persecution, I would

:16:59.:17:05.

say, because no other trial I can get result suspects and then this

:17:06.:17:11.

inquest started to be slow and slow and slow because evidence where

:17:12.:17:16.

finally somebody could see something very strong. The poisoning of your

:17:17.:17:21.

husband was quite blatant an obvious, wasn't it? What do you

:17:22.:17:24.

think the purpose of it was in terms of who was the message for? It's

:17:25.:17:34.

difficult again to discuss because using polonium, it's just absolutely

:17:35.:17:40.

irresponsible. People just gives this order to kill my husband

:17:41.:17:45.

without any even decision what polonium harmful, not just for one

:17:46.:17:51.

person. I would say many people in London. How many people as well. Do

:17:52.:18:02.

you think though, you say you were contaminated too and that was not on

:18:03.:18:07.

purpose. But I've talked to you about this a while ago before and

:18:08.:18:11.

you were uncertain. Do you feel possibly that your own life is in

:18:12.:18:18.

danger daily in London? What I'm in a position to solve is to have this

:18:19.:18:27.

case done anyway, trial or inquest or public inquiry because any truth

:18:28.:18:32.

in the end we will have. We will have some evidence or some verdict,

:18:33.:18:39.

who is behind this crime. It helps people to be sure. It might not

:18:40.:18:46.

happen again without this. Lump feel safe though? -- will you ever feel

:18:47.:18:50.

safe though? I would say yes. Thank you very much for joining us.

:18:51.:18:56.

Returning to our earlier story, in the Netherlands today, Prime

:18:57.:19:00.

Minister Mark Rutte warned that attitudes towards Russia had changed

:19:01.:19:03.

fundamentally since the disaster. Anna Holligan reports.

:19:04.:19:11.

A serene, stable nation, caught up in somebody else's conflict.

:19:12.:19:16.

This shrine growing every day now marks the spot at departures III,

:19:17.:19:22.

the point from which the dead departed.

:19:23.:19:26.

This started with just a couple of bouquets on Thursday evening and, as

:19:27.:19:30.

more and more people heard about the disaster, just look at the scale of

:19:31.:19:36.

this shrine now. Schipol is an international hub airport. Hundreds

:19:37.:19:39.

of passengers pass through these doors every day and many have been

:19:40.:19:43.

stopping off here to pay their respects to the passengers who were

:19:44.:19:47.

on board that flight, passengers just like them, many going on

:19:48.:19:51.

holiday. If you have a look down here, you can see international

:19:52.:20:00.

nature of the tributes. Beyond the pockets of personal

:20:01.:20:05.

sadness, there is a widely held public sentiment that Dutch

:20:06.:20:08.

officials are being too soft. Earlier, the Prime Minister, Mark

:20:09.:20:12.

Rutte, took a harder line against Russia.

:20:13.:20:17.

TRANSLATION: In our view, something has changed fundamentally there

:20:18.:20:22.

since Thursday. According to the Netherlands, all options are on the

:20:23.:20:25.

table, economic, financial and political. Our priority is to get

:20:26.:20:30.

the people back and the best possible independent investigation

:20:31.:20:35.

and justice. The Netherlands is a calm, reserved

:20:36.:20:42.

country, but a front-page image has moved emotions from shock and

:20:43.:20:46.

sadness to fury and frustration, combined with disbelief.

:20:47.:20:55.

Since Thursday, I've been thinking, how horrible it must have been. The

:20:56.:21:00.

final moments of their lives when they knew the plane was going down.

:21:01.:21:07.

Did they lock hands with their loved ones? Did they hold their children

:21:08.:21:17.

close to their hearts? Did they look each other in the eyes, one final

:21:18.:21:23.

time, in a wordless goodbye? We will never know.

:21:24.:21:29.

Many here in this serene stable nation feels as though they've been

:21:30.:21:38.

dragged into someone else's war. The church is going to hold a vigil at 8

:21:39.:21:45.

o'clock. We are in sadness. After that, there'll be a request for

:21:46.:21:51.

retaliation. There were quite a lot of Amsterdam people on the plane. We

:21:52.:21:55.

are a small community so almost everybody in our surroundings are

:21:56.:22:00.

affected by this, by the crash. So I feel that an entire city is grieving

:22:01.:22:04.

about this. Tomorrow, the bodies will be flown

:22:05.:22:09.

into Eindhoven. Families will wait alongside the Dutch King and Queen.

:22:10.:22:14.

None of them will know whether the coffins will contain their

:22:15.:22:20.

relatives. The list of names of the 193 missing Dutch victims was

:22:21.:22:23.

published in the papers this morning. Some of the remains still

:22:24.:22:30.

lie in eastern Ukraine. At this Dutch military facility just

:22:31.:22:36.

outside Hilversum, they have been making preparations for the arrival

:22:37.:22:41.

of the remains. Soon, the eyes of the internationally affected

:22:42.:22:44.

community will be on this place over the coming days, weeks, perhaps

:22:45.:22:48.

months. The bodies of those passengers will be driven through

:22:49.:22:53.

these gates to be identified by forensics before they can finally be

:22:54.:22:59.

reunited with their families. Tomorrow has been declared a

:23:00.:23:03.

national day of mourning. The first in the Netherlands since 1962 when

:23:04.:23:10.

the Queen died. This is a small nation, one that isn't accustomed to

:23:11.:23:16.

such immense misery. Anna Holligan. Marietje Schaake is a

:23:17.:23:20.

Dutch member of the European Parliament and a member of the

:23:21.:23:23.

committee on Foreign Affairs, as well as a committee of international

:23:24.:23:28.

trade and she is in Brussels. Marietje Schaake, do you think there

:23:29.:23:32.

is any relief for people in the Netherlands for knowing that some of

:23:33.:23:35.

the bodies will be repatriated tomorrow?

:23:36.:23:41.

Well, after all the intense sorrow of the loss of so many innocent

:23:42.:23:44.

people, particularly so many children after the downing of this

:23:45.:23:48.

plane, of course people want to have an opportunity to say a dignified

:23:49.:23:53.

goodbye to their loved ones. But I find it hard to understand how

:23:54.:24:00.

people can find peace of mind after seeing tampering with the site of

:24:01.:24:04.

the downing of the plane, looting of the site and personal belongings of

:24:05.:24:09.

the innocent victims. It's actually appalling that this has happened and

:24:10.:24:14.

I believe that there is a very deep mix of grief and anger in the

:24:15.:24:17.

Netherlands that will last for a very long time. Now, in Anna

:24:18.:24:22.

Holligan's report there, we heard from a young man who said that the

:24:23.:24:25.

country was in mourning but there was a feeling that there would need

:24:26.:24:29.

to be some retaliation. I was wondering if there is a terrible

:24:30.:24:34.

feeling of impotence in the country when, exactly what you are saying,

:24:35.:24:37.

at the fact that you have no control of what is happening in eastern

:24:38.:24:43.

Ukraine? That is why we asked firmly, our Government does and we

:24:44.:24:47.

have today in the European Parliament, for European support for

:24:48.:24:52.

an international inquiry at the crash site and with all the evidence

:24:53.:24:56.

that is available and unrestricted access to the site. Again, it is

:24:57.:25:01.

disgraceful that it took a UN Security Council resolution

:25:02.:25:03.

disgraceful that it took a UN sure that that process started

:25:04.:25:07.

moving. So all those who have any influence over the people who're at

:25:08.:25:13.

and around the site must provide their cooperation to uncover every

:25:14.:25:17.

detail on this horrible downing of the plane so that we can find out

:25:18.:25:21.

what exactly happened and that we can talk about how to find justice,

:25:22.:25:26.

not only for the victims and the immediate loved ones of those

:25:27.:25:31.

innocent victims, but also for the acquiring of justice for the Dutch,

:25:32.:25:36.

for all the other ones who've fallen. This is a disaster, a

:25:37.:25:42.

catastrophe that has impacted many, many countries. We've received

:25:43.:25:46.

condolences and messages of sympathy from all over the world, and our

:25:47.:25:52.

priority is to seek justice and to bring those responsible and their

:25:53.:25:55.

enablers, to accountability. Finally. Today, European Foreign

:25:56.:26:07.

Ministers agreed to step up the existing sanctions they placed on

:26:08.:26:12.

Russia. What signal does this give to Vladimir Putin? Would you have

:26:13.:26:16.

liked to see tougher sanctions today? The perspective of new

:26:17.:26:21.

sanctions still has to be agreed on and what is essential now is that

:26:22.:26:26.

Europe stands unite and makes a clear desession on whether it seeks

:26:27.:26:30.

to continue with trade as if it's business as usual with energy

:26:31.:26:34.

relations as if it's business as usual or whether we'll finally come

:26:35.:26:40.

Taggart and take a tough stance for fundamental values, for

:26:41.:26:43.

international justice, which has not only been challenged through this

:26:44.:26:47.

terrible downing of the aeroplane, but has been challenged in a number

:26:48.:26:51.

of incidents over the past couple of months, and it's very, very

:26:52.:26:56.

important that we reassess our stance towards the Kremlin and

:26:57.:27:00.

towards events that are happening in our eastern neighbourhood and I

:27:01.:27:03.

believe it's essential that Europe acts as a strong leader in this

:27:04.:27:07.

world and the challenges that we are seeing after the downing of the

:27:08.:27:11.

plane in the context of the annexation of Crimea of the unrest

:27:12.:27:17.

in the eastern Ukraine, but also of broader questions of international

:27:18.:27:22.

relations, merit a strong response from Europe, and I think we have to

:27:23.:27:25.

focus on that all together. Thank you very much. Even more urgently

:27:26.:27:28.

than we did before. Thank you very much.

:27:29.:27:34.

Now, tonight, a number of airlines, including Delta, Air Canada, Air

:27:35.:27:41.

France, Lufthansa and KLM, have suspended flights to an

:27:42.:27:43.

international airport in response to a rocket strike that landed a mile

:27:44.:27:47.

from the airport today. There was no let-up in the fighting that's

:27:48.:27:53.

claimed more than 600 lives. 100 of them, according to Gazan officials

:27:54.:27:57.

are children. John Kerry and Ban Ki-Moon are

:27:58.:28:01.

engaged in rounds of talks in Israel and Egypt and tomorrow, Ban Ki-Moon

:28:02.:28:05.

heads for the West Bank. So far, there is no sign of a ceasefire,

:28:06.:28:09.

only perhaps the possibility of a humanitarian truce lasting several

:28:10.:28:13.

days to get aid to the Palestinian territory.

:28:14.:28:24.

I'm joined by the UN Special Envoy for the Palestinian conflict

:28:25.:28:28.

negotiations and also the former US Ambassador to Israel.

:28:29.:28:33.

You left just three weeks ago and when you left, you said you were

:28:34.:28:38.

battered by the whole situation. Did you simply give up?

:28:39.:28:46.

No, we didn't give up. We reached a point where the parties themselves

:28:47.:28:53.

gave up. The Israelis suspended the negotiations because the

:28:54.:28:56.

Palestinians had decided to reconcile with Hamas which is not

:28:57.:29:02.

interested in negotiations. There wasn't anything more that we could

:29:03.:29:07.

do. For nine months, we negotiated intensively at the highest levels

:29:08.:29:11.

with the Secretary of State heavily involved. I think he made 16 trips

:29:12.:29:16.

to the region in that process, so giving up was not words in our

:29:17.:29:19.

vocabulary. But if you thought it was hopeless three weeks ago, what

:29:20.:29:24.

do you think of it now? Do you think the Israelis were right to start

:29:25.:29:31.

this offensive in Gaza? They didn't start the offensive.

:29:32.:29:38.

Take the offensive into Gaza, sorry? With the ground invasion and air

:29:39.:29:43.

power as well? Yes, the offensive was started by

:29:44.:29:51.

Hamas rockets into Israeli cities, but the situation obviously is

:29:52.:29:58.

horrific and it grows worse by the day. It's the opposite of

:29:59.:30:03.

peace-making. It's all about war-making at the moment. The only

:30:04.:30:07.

hope in this horrendous situation is that both sides will come to

:30:08.:30:13.

understand what Secretary Kerry was telling them from the outset of our

:30:14.:30:17.

efforts to try to Makepeace which was that the status quo is

:30:18.:30:22.

unsustainable and that chronic conflict is not a way... Well, you

:30:23.:30:31.

talk about chronic conflict. The figures are 600 dead on the

:30:32.:30:34.

Palestinian side, more than 30 dead on the Israeli side. But let's look

:30:35.:30:39.

at the UN figures. Of the Palestinians who've died, the UN

:30:40.:30:45.

says 75% are civilian, 25 from one family, 100 children, two hospitals.

:30:46.:30:50.

Is that disproportionate? You know, I'm not here to make

:30:51.:30:59.

judgments about these kinds of things. I think it's an horrendous

:31:00.:31:08.

situation that civilian casualties have happened, the casualties are

:31:09.:31:12.

terrible and I wish that they were not happening, I also wish Hamas

:31:13.:31:16.

wouldn't use civilians as their shields and hide their rockets. But

:31:17.:31:21.

the French Foreign Minister's called it a massacre and the opposition

:31:22.:31:26.

leader Ed Miliband in Washington said that Israel was wrong to go

:31:27.:31:31.

into Gaza? Gaza. Do you think that Israel should have held back this

:31:32.:31:38.

time? Look, I don't know what you want from me, I'm not here to make

:31:39.:31:46.

judgments on either side. But you are here as a man who knows the area

:31:47.:31:50.

well, you have been negotiating. Let me finish my answer, please. I think

:31:51.:31:57.

that again, if you look at the record, there were several attempts

:31:58.:32:04.

at ceasefires. I do not believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu was a man

:32:05.:32:09.

who wanted to go into Gaza on the ground. He was seeking ways to

:32:10.:32:15.

achieve calm before that. But the rocketing of Israeli cities and the

:32:16.:32:19.

attacks through the tunnels were such that it got to the point that

:32:20.:32:23.

he couldn't get a ceasefire so he decided to move in and try to

:32:24.:32:29.

destroy the tunnels. You know, this is the nature of war that both sides

:32:30.:32:36.

are engaged in, in a process that leads to escalation. But is it going

:32:37.:32:42.

to make Israel for targeted? It's just not an acceptable situation.

:32:43.:32:46.

That's why we have to try to get a ceasefire as soon as possible.

:32:47.:32:50.

But, is it going to make Israel more secure? Right now, Israel looks

:32:51.:32:55.

isolated by virtue of the fact that the very few flights if any go into

:32:56.:33:01.

the airport. Is Israel going to be more secure by making more enemies

:33:02.:33:06.

of Palestinians? Well, clearly, the only way to ensure lasting security

:33:07.:33:10.

is to try to get peace. That's what we were trying to do, but I think

:33:11.:33:19.

that you need to answer the question - if you think there's a better way

:33:20.:33:24.

to stop the rockets from being fired in Israeli civilian populations,

:33:25.:33:28.

then responding with force, go for it. We have been trying to get a

:33:29.:33:33.

ceasefire. I don't know what it is exactly that should be done.

:33:34.:33:37.

Obviously, civilians, casualties should be avoided to maximum effect

:33:38.:33:41.

possible. The question is, how do you get a ceasefire. The answer to

:33:42.:33:45.

the question is, how do you stop Hamas from firing rockets? Thank you

:33:46.:33:50.

very much. Well, the conflict in Gaza and the

:33:51.:33:54.

high number of civilian casualties has thrown into sharp ways the way

:33:55.:33:59.

broadcasters deal with images of the dead. Newsnight and other BBC News

:34:00.:34:03.

and current affairs programmes covering war zones often warn before

:34:04.:34:06.

showing the films that viewers might find some images contained in the

:34:07.:34:10.

report distressing. But is it more or less upsetting to obscure the

:34:11.:34:15.

faces of the dead as we do? The veteran war reporter Robert Fisk

:34:16.:34:19.

writing this knell independent on Sunday this weekend joined the

:34:20.:34:22.

critics who say broadcasters may be guilty of sanitising the horror of

:34:23.:34:36.

war. Here is Katie Razzall's report. This contains some disturbing

:34:37.:34:41.

images. An iconic picture of the Vietnam War. It might have looked

:34:42.:34:47.

less powerful or brutal elsewhere. Brutal images too disturbing for us

:34:48.:34:52.

to show. Blobbing the faces of the dead is censorship of war says

:34:53.:34:57.

Robert Fisk. Censorship by coward who is avoid death on TV more and

:34:58.:35:02.

more. The broadcasting code sets rules television companies must

:35:03.:35:05.

comply with. Before the watershed, it says children must also be

:35:06.:35:08.

protected from material that is unsuitable for them. Broadcaster can

:35:09.:35:14.

be severely fined for any harm or offence caused. After 9 o'clock,

:35:15.:35:20.

offensive images including violence, humiliation, distress and violation

:35:21.:35:23.

of human dignity can be justified by the context.

:35:24.:35:30.

Robert Fisk concentrates on Gaza and argues that by making a child's face

:35:31.:35:39.

blobbed out, it kills them a second time.

:35:40.:35:46.

Joining us to discuss this is the President of the Royal Television

:35:47.:35:50.

Society and a defence editor at the Times newspaper, Debra Haines.

:35:51.:35:57.

Peter, who are we obscuring the faces and bodies for? Television is

:35:58.:36:05.

a very pervasive medium and it's heavily regulated compared to other

:36:06.:36:11.

media. We have heard about the censorship. If you are turning on a

:36:12.:36:14.

documentary about deaths in the Middle East you would know that what

:36:15.:36:18.

was about. But you would turn on the news and know that war zones and

:36:19.:36:23.

conflicts would be being covered? But you wouldn't know on any given

:36:24.:36:27.

night. The 9 o'clock watershed is a critical part. We are protecting the

:36:28.:36:31.

sensibilities of the viewers, but we should term the whole story after 9

:36:32.:36:35.

o'clock. Before 9lock, it's a different story. Surely Peter has a

:36:36.:36:41.

point about protecting viewers? I disagree. I really think that by

:36:42.:36:47.

sanitising the reality of war, we are not giving the true story to

:36:48.:36:51.

people back home. People need to know that if someone's being shot by

:36:52.:36:57.

a high velocity bullet, it causes real damage. Do you believe though

:36:58.:37:01.

that there should be a line or there should be more censorship of what is

:37:02.:37:06.

shown of conflict? I think there is no point displaying gratuitous

:37:07.:37:10.

violence for the sake of it. So I think that newspapers, for example,

:37:11.:37:15.

take a slightly bolder line in that way and are able to do it in a

:37:16.:37:21.

responsible way that doesn't protect people's sensibility. The whole

:37:22.:37:26.

media is changing, isn't it, because with smartphones and so forth,

:37:27.:37:31.

people are seeing the impacts of conflict, seeing people dying on the

:37:32.:37:35.

ground. However, doesn't it make the broadcasters look very out of touch

:37:36.:37:40.

with the times in which we live? Paradoxically, the fact that you can

:37:41.:37:45.

see any of this stuff, YouTube could be described as... Well... YouTube

:37:46.:37:50.

could be described as a long snuff movie but it's the very fact that

:37:51.:37:53.

this stuff is available, shot on mobile phones and so widely

:37:54.:37:57.

available that points up that television is a different role, has

:37:58.:38:01.

a different role to play. But it's sending to the world some of the

:38:02.:38:05.

things happening. But do you know something, I'm not necessarily

:38:06.:38:10.

against you about your high velocity bullet point, I don't need to see

:38:11.:38:12.

every detail to understand people have died. That is true, isn't it,

:38:13.:38:17.

that you talk about gratuitous, but actually, if a reporter is doing his

:38:18.:38:22.

or her job well, they explain what is happening with a certain

:38:23.:38:30.

coralling of the images? Absolutely and I'm not talking about them

:38:31.:38:34.

talking about every last drop of blood on the floor, but to protect

:38:35.:38:38.

people, the face of an innocent child that's died as a blob isn't

:38:39.:38:43.

protecting sensibilities, it's masking the reality of war. The BBC

:38:44.:38:48.

has got it right before 9 o'clock but I would side with you to the

:38:49.:38:52.

extent that I think after 9 o'clock Newsnight could be more realistic

:38:53.:38:59.

and more detailed. Do you think that you have to have a new set of rules?

:39:00.:39:04.

There has to be, as it were, a reality check? Well, I think we are

:39:05.:39:08.

being challenged even by this, as you make the point, the footage that

:39:09.:39:12.

is available shot on every mobile phone. I think after 9 o'clock, I

:39:13.:39:17.

think at the moment television is tending to apply the same rules and

:39:18.:39:21.

ignoring the watershed. I think we could be more honest and real after

:39:22.:39:25.

9 o'clock but television's got it right before 9 o'clock. It's

:39:26.:39:31.

interesting because we are used to horrific violence in movies. We are

:39:32.:39:36.

becoming detan sized to violence anyway? Were to an extent, but the

:39:37.:39:42.

reality of war would help people realise that war is not a good thing

:39:43.:39:46.

and it might lessen war. The care with which you show that footage is

:39:47.:39:53.

less effective. Thank you very much. Greg Dyke is undoubtably the most

:39:54.:39:59.

straight-talking chairman in Football Association -- the Football

:40:00.:40:03.

Association has ever had. He told the committee his forthright opinion

:40:04.:40:08.

of FIFA, describing the congress like something out of North Korea.

:40:09.:40:13.

But he hasn't told the world what he made of England's performance in the

:40:14.:40:17.

World Cup and whether that throat-cutting gesture he made at

:40:18.:40:19.

the draw when the group was announced meant that he knew they

:40:20.:40:23.

were heading phone an early fall. He joins me now. Good evening. First of

:40:24.:40:28.

all, at the Select Committee today. If corruption proved, will England

:40:29.:40:38.

pull out? No. Well, we are all waiting to see Mr Garcia's report.

:40:39.:40:43.

When we see Mr Garcia's report, we'll know what level of, if there

:40:44.:40:48.

was any corruption and what level there was, we at that stage I think

:40:49.:40:52.

if there is evidence of corruption would ask for a revote.

:40:53.:40:59.

But in the absence of a revote, you wouldn't pull England out, you would

:41:00.:41:03.

two? I don't think there's any point in pulling England out. I told the

:41:04.:41:09.

Select Committee, I've resigned from things before and it's not a good

:41:10.:41:13.

idea really. Yeah, we all wish you were still at the BBC! Do you think

:41:14.:41:20.

it's proper to go to Russia in 2018? It's early to say that. You think

:41:21.:41:24.

there might be an issue? You can't look at it in this week because it's

:41:25.:41:30.

such a dramatic event this week. Can you imagine Vladimir Putin at the

:41:31.:41:35.

opening ceremony? As I say, it's too early to know that. In the end, that

:41:36.:41:40.

decision will be taken by FIFA. Let's have a bit of lacking back now

:41:41.:41:46.

and deal with the World Cup. It was England's worst performance in more

:41:47.:41:51.

than 50 years. That's not true. Were you embarrassed? That's not true.

:41:52.:41:55.

Once we got there, we always knew it you embarrassed? That's not true.

:41:56.:41:59.

would be a tough group. Said from the beginning, the throat-cutting.

:42:00.:42:06.

So you were toast at the draw? No, but it was difficult. We didn't want

:42:07.:42:11.

to play in Manuas and didn't want to play the Italians because it gave us

:42:12.:42:15.

a very hard group. That is an excuse. Come on? ! You asked me

:42:16.:42:19.

about the throat-cutting, I'm telling you. But can you imagine

:42:20.:42:23.

that actually, England's regarded as one of the finest footballing

:42:24.:42:27.

nations. Wasn't it humiliating what happened to England? No. It was

:42:28.:42:31.

disappointing, it wasn't humiliating. What was humiliating

:42:32.:42:37.

would be to lose 7-1, as Brazil discovered. We didn't lose 7-1, we

:42:38.:42:44.

lost by two-odd goals which could have gon the orthis way. It was

:42:45.:42:47.

disappointing and we would have liked to have done better -- gone

:42:48.:42:55.

the other way. You are a man that has been part of several

:42:56.:43:00.

organisations. Why are you protecting Roy Hodgson? Over 80% of

:43:01.:43:05.

the public said we were right to keep him. He's got a four-year

:43:06.:43:10.

contract. We looked at it after the results and said look, we think

:43:11.:43:13.

we'll stick with this guy for at least another two years. So you did

:43:14.:43:17.

look at the contract? Oh, we mew the concerns. We looked at the contract.

:43:18.:43:22.

Well, we were not concerned we said on the day that you have lost, you

:43:23.:43:26.

have to make a quick decision, we talked to people and said we'd stick

:43:27.:43:31.

with Roy for the next two years. I think English football's got a

:43:32.:43:38.

problem with a commission that's being looked into. They were great

:43:39.:43:43.

footballers. We are a bit short on English footballers. Wait a minute,

:43:44.:43:47.

you are short on good English footballers? Yes, 70% of the Premier

:43:48.:43:53.

League are now foreign players, 50% of the Championship are foreign

:43:54.:43:58.

players. We have a limitation and that's getting bigger every year. Do

:43:59.:44:01.

you think that's actually footballers playing better when they

:44:02.:44:06.

finally got there? I think they think they could have done. Do you

:44:07.:44:09.

think they could? As I say... You are the chairman? It's small

:44:10.:44:14.

margins, but mistakes, we could have got through to the next round and we

:44:15.:44:18.

didn't and that was due to a number of mistakes and missed

:44:19.:44:21.

opportunities. On the park? Yes. Thank you very much.

:44:22.:44:25.

Well, will Scotland keep the pound in the event of independence? The

:44:26.:44:29.

latest salvo in this debate came from a report from the chair of the

:44:30.:44:32.

Westminster Scottish air fairs committee who said the Government

:44:33.:44:36.

government tries to give the impression a currency unit is still

:44:37.:44:41.

possible. It's not. The pound is dead, to which Scotland's minister

:44:42.:44:45.

decided the pound is as much Scotland's as well as England's and

:44:46.:44:48.

Northern Ireland's, as so it goes on. We spoke to Alex Salmond. Two

:44:49.:44:55.

months out from perhaps the biggest moment of your political life, do

:44:56.:44:58.

you accept that you still have a lot of people to convince? I think we

:44:59.:45:02.

take the average of all the polls. It's now co Al elsing at 55, 45. Can

:45:03.:45:09.

you make up that sort of gap, yes, of course we can. More than the

:45:10.:45:17.

polls, it's more important to say why we are going to make up that gap

:45:18.:45:22.

and why are we going to win. We are going to win because we are putting

:45:23.:45:25.

forward the case about the future of Scotland. If the no-campaign is

:45:26.:45:30.

hapless, negative talking about plagues on people's houses, if that

:45:31.:45:34.

is so ineffective, why have they been ahead for such a long time?

:45:35.:45:37.

They have always been ahead and comfortable with the idea that they

:45:38.:45:42.

can always face down the quest for independence and they go back to the

:45:43.:45:47.

reserve position which is the negativity. But before you get to

:45:48.:45:51.

that point, Scottish voters is a vested interest in knowing for sure

:45:52.:45:56.

which currency they'll be able to use, for sure who'd set interest

:45:57.:46:03.

rates, for sure who would the banks would go to if the financial system

:46:04.:46:08.

were to collapse? These are questions we've answered. We can't

:46:09.:46:13.

get the United Kingdom to say that publicly but we know from leaks in

:46:14.:46:17.

the Guardian that senior ministers say of course there'll be a currency

:46:18.:46:20.

union, this is all about the campaign, we are just doing what

:46:21.:46:24.

Alistair Darling wants us to do. But you expect people to be reassured

:46:25.:46:28.

and secure enough to believe that they'll definitely be able to keep

:46:29.:46:32.

the pound on the basis of an off-the-record quote to a newspaper?

:46:33.:46:39.

No. I expect people to take a common-sense position of that.

:46:40.:46:42.

People are big enough and strong enough in Scotland to see through

:46:43.:46:47.

Tory Bluesers and threats during the campaign. One Scottish voters said

:46:48.:46:51.

to me in Glasgow yesterday, if I go and buy a car and the salesman can't

:46:52.:47:00.

tell me how the financing would work, I wouldn't buy that car. So

:47:01.:47:05.

many big economic questions, the share of the debt, who'd set

:47:06.:47:08.

interest rates, lender of last resort? All right, the share of the

:47:09.:47:12.

debt starts at 0, the sets of interest rates is the Bank of

:47:13.:47:16.

England, the lender is the Bank of England also. We can put forward a

:47:17.:47:19.

proposition which is in the best interests of Scotland and the rest

:47:20.:47:23.

of the United Kingdom. It's not a prop digs... It's backed by the

:47:24.:47:29.

democratic. Why should the rest of the UK be content for this to be a

:47:30.:47:34.

political pick and mix, pick what you want from the defence, what the

:47:35.:47:39.

BBC, the lottery, the currency, bits and pieces of the existing UK as you

:47:40.:47:45.

wish. It's a bit like a divorce and the husband who walked out gets to

:47:46.:47:51.

choose who he wants from the -- what he wants from the furniture and the

:47:52.:47:58.

partner has no say. Why should people accept giving you what you

:47:59.:48:02.

want? Let's take the cases that you illustrated. These were your

:48:03.:48:12.

choices. Nobody in England as far as I know is giving uprising or ill

:48:13.:48:16.

will towards Canada because they have a tell merry to have the Queen

:48:17.:48:21.

as Head of State in the real world incidentally with the real people of

:48:22.:48:27.

England, the sort of people I met and on the ferries across the Mersey

:48:28.:48:32.

this morning. They don't have a metropolitan Westminster. Perhaps

:48:33.:48:35.

the BBC attitude that everyone ganging up on Scotland. But the

:48:36.:48:39.

polls suggest that you won't win. Have you thought about your own

:48:40.:48:42.

position if the polls are right or would you try again? We'll win. This

:48:43.:48:48.

time. First Minister, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

:48:49.:48:52.

That is all we have time for tonight. Have a very good night.

:48:53.:48:54.

Good night. Hello there. The warmth continues

:48:55.:49:09.

for the rest of this week. Another fine day for most on Wednesday.

:49:10.:49:12.

Might start off a bit grey where you

:49:13.:49:14.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Looking at the latest on the MH17 plane crash, Marina Litvinenko on her husband, Gaza, whether obscuring corpses' faces is wrong, and Greg Dyke on English football.


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