21/07/2014 Newsnight


21/07/2014

With Kirsty Wark. Newsnight is on the ground in Donetsk. Plus, why are we still selling arms to Russia?; Gaza; an interview with Alex Salmond; how Netflix killed the middle-brow.


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bearing the bodies of the survivors of flight MH17 and the black box

:00:13.:00:14.

will be handed to investigators. where Russian separatist are

:00:15.:00:24.

creating chaos. The They are saying they are not terrorists, and

:00:25.:00:27.

peaceful people are dying. We will hear from the Russianle garage all

:00:28.:00:33.

sander Levadev. The Prime Minister says Europe must confront Vladimir

:00:34.:00:37.

Putin. If he doesn't change his approach to Ukraine in this way,

:00:38.:00:41.

then Europe and the west must fundamentally change our approach to

:00:42.:00:49.

Russia. Despite his insistence that the UK has stopped selling weapons

:00:50.:00:54.

to Russia, Newsnight have found some weapons are still for sale. We have

:00:55.:01:01.

found that British arms dealers are licensed to sell to Russia.

:01:02.:01:08.

Is our passion for on-demand TV killing the middle brow shows we

:01:09.:01:12.

used to like. I almost pity him. The proms have come to Newsnight, we

:01:13.:01:16.

begin our own special season. Good evening, the UN Security

:01:17.:01:39.

Council has tonight unanimously adopted a resolution calling for

:01:40.:01:43.

investigators to be given safe and unrestricted access to the site

:01:44.:01:47.

where flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine. So, Russia voted in favour.

:01:48.:01:52.

Will the separatist rebels, thought to be behind this shooting down of

:01:53.:01:57.

the plane genuinely agree to a safe? Today the train carrying many of the

:01:58.:02:01.

dead headed out, where they will be handed over to the Dutch shorts, and

:02:02.:02:06.

there is still chaos and danger near the crash site and nearby Donetsk,

:02:07.:02:09.

where there have been violent clashes today. We're there. It is

:02:10.:02:19.

after midnight in Donetsk, a curfew is in force and a number of armed

:02:20.:02:26.

men with guns have appeared at an impromptu checkpoint behind me. From

:02:27.:02:29.

around the morning we saw heavy shelling inbetween the raily station

:02:30.:02:34.

and the airport, between apparently u-- railway station and the airport.

:02:35.:02:38.

Apparently between Ukrainian forces and the rebels. This carried on

:02:39.:02:42.

throughout the day, I have been hearing the thumps of shells and

:02:43.:02:45.

mortars into the evening. I have to say it has gone quiet a little bit

:02:46.:02:49.

in the last few hours. This happened on day when lots of other things

:02:50.:02:52.

were happening. We have just seen chaotic scenes of a hotel here in

:02:53.:02:56.

Donetsk, with negotiations between Malaysian officials and the rebels

:02:57.:02:59.

over possession of the black boxes, the flight data recorders from that

:03:00.:03:04.

flight. They are, I understand, at the moment still in the possession

:03:05.:03:08.

of the rebels, but negotiations were under way to hand them over. As you

:03:09.:03:12.

said, the train carrying nearly all of the bodies from that flight now

:03:13.:03:17.

finally on the move back towards Ukrainian-held territory. Again we

:03:18.:03:20.

are not quite sure when it might get there. So a very, very busy day on

:03:21.:03:26.

the day that the UN called for safe access to these experts and safe was

:03:27.:03:30.

far from what it was. In the report that we have compiled for you today,

:03:31.:03:34.

you will see some images that some viewers may find distressing.

:03:35.:03:40.

It is four days since the crash, international experts have arrived,

:03:41.:03:46.

and are investigating. But this is still warzone.

:03:47.:03:49.

This morning at least one more civilian would fall victim to this

:03:50.:03:55.

vicious conflict. We're on our way to the crash site when our driver

:03:56.:04:06.

gets a panicked phone call. This is his 13-year-old daughter on the

:04:07.:04:08.

phone and crying and saying the house has just been bombed. We head

:04:09.:04:13.

back into town. Nervous rebels have sealed off the area around the

:04:14.:04:23.

railway station. Suddenly shots ring out. There is some shooting going on

:04:24.:04:31.

now. Not quite clear what's happening, but there is some very

:04:32.:04:36.

agitated men on the road there. Some of them with guns. Around the back

:04:37.:04:43.

of the station the rebels have taken up position. We can hear t faint

:04:44.:04:49.

thud of mortars or shells landing, there is battle going on somewhere

:04:50.:04:52.

between here and the airport, which is held by Government forces. He

:04:53.:05:00.

says we are not terrorists dying but peaceful people dying. You can hear

:05:01.:05:09.

more shelling going on now. Just around the corn certificate a block

:05:10.:05:13.

of flats, several rockets have hitter, residents tell us,

:05:14.:05:16.

shattering windows. Then we see the crater, the first victim, a woman,

:05:17.:05:21.

she looks to be in her 40s or early 50s, she must have been crossing the

:05:22.:05:26.

yard when the rocket struck. This is as are relation block, we don't know

:05:27.:05:30.

where -- residential block, we don't know where the rockets or shells

:05:31.:05:34.

came from, but these people are civilian, we can hear the shelling

:05:35.:05:38.

going on periodically as we speak. Over the weekend emergency service

:05:39.:05:42.

workers, under the direction of armed rebels, began collecting

:05:43.:05:47.

bodies from the crash site in the fields east of Donetsk. In the

:05:48.:05:50.

summer heat, they say, they had no choice, they couldn't wait for the

:05:51.:05:55.

international inspectors to arrive. But the west has accused them of

:05:56.:06:00.

tampering with the evidence. What exactly are they trying to hide

:06:01.:06:09.

Barack Obama asked today. This 77-year-old woman saw the plane come

:06:10.:06:15.

out of the sky. It narrowly missed obliterating her village when one of

:06:16.:06:19.

the wings lands metres from her home. There was a huge explosion

:06:20.:06:24.

when it fell, and she thought they were bombing them. She lived through

:06:25.:06:28.

the Second World War, but she has never seen anything like this.

:06:29.:06:35.

Mostly eyewitnesses give us few firm clues about what actually happened.

:06:36.:06:39.

Some say they saw fighter jets in the sky, just before the Boeing

:06:40.:06:41.

crashed, imflying that perhaps the rare liner was brought down by the

:06:42.:06:46.

Ukrainian air force. The Ukrainians say this is utter nonsense, the

:06:47.:06:50.

country's head of counter intelligence told us he knew the

:06:51.:06:54.

rebels had got their hands on a powerful Russian missile system,

:06:55.:06:59.

known as Buk, three days before MH17 was shot down. The first information

:07:00.:07:08.

that we got was July 14th, the first intelligence we possessed about the

:07:09.:07:15.

BukM one missile launchers going directly to Ukraine, but we couldn't

:07:16.:07:18.

confirm that information. From Russia? Yes. The terrorists when

:07:19.:07:25.

they find out the remains of the plane and the bodies, the terrorists

:07:26.:07:32.

tried to hide the Buk, all the Buk M 1s that were on the territory in

:07:33.:07:36.

Ukraine. Early in the morning July 18, two Buk M1s trespass illegally

:07:37.:07:45.

again on the Russian border going back to Russia. Two hours later at

:07:46.:07:50.

4.00am one more missile launcher went to Russia. So to your knowledge

:07:51.:07:55.

there are now at the moment in the hands of the rebels or the

:07:56.:07:59.

there are now at the moment in the mercenaries as you call them, there

:08:00.:08:00.

are no such missile systems in their are no such missile systems in their

:08:01.:08:04.

hands? I can't tell they have none. We know three of them went back to

:08:05.:08:09.

Russia. But they might have more? Probably, Russia provides weapons to

:08:10.:08:15.

the rebels on the territory of Ukraine, it is no a Civil War. It is

:08:16.:08:18.

not the rebels, these are mercenaries and terrorists. Are your

:08:19.:08:22.

allies in the west doing enough to support Ukraine? Yes. There is

:08:23.:08:28.

nothing more they can do? They can do more, but they support Ukraine,

:08:29.:08:31.

definitely. In the field of intelligence you are getting the

:08:32.:08:35.

support you need? To some extent. Not quite? Not quite. What more

:08:36.:08:43.

would you like? More intelligence. If indeed pro-Russian rebels with

:08:44.:08:49.

help from Moscow shot down MH17, then why? A possible answer is to be

:08:50.:08:54.

found here in the small town not far from the crash site. Last week a

:08:55.:09:03.

local rebel commander told me the Ukrainian air force bombed this

:09:04.:09:04.

residential block. It was early in Ukrainian air force bombed this

:09:05.:09:08.

the morning, people were at home, some maybe in the bathroom or having

:09:09.:09:18.

their breakfast. 11 people died. TRANSLATION: The air force use

:09:19.:09:22.

civilian aircraft as cover, it is their tactic, they have only just

:09:23.:09:25.

stopped flying over the area, before the crash they did it all the time.

:09:26.:09:31.

He says the rebels don't possess a missile capable of reaching such a

:09:32.:09:35.

height, if they did he says... TRANSLATION: If we knew they weren't

:09:36.:09:41.

civilian we would shoot them. The mystery of how MH17 dropped out of

:09:42.:09:45.

the sky remains locked in claim and counter claim. The investigators now

:09:46.:09:52.

begin their work in earnest, the stakes could hardly be higher.

:09:53.:09:59.

I spoke a little earlier tonight to the Russian oligarch who owns the

:10:00.:10:05.

independent Evening Standard newspapers and the Independent

:10:06.:10:09.

Newspaper, as well as a newspaper in Russia. I asked him how dangerous he

:10:10.:10:12.

considered the current situation to be? It has been compared already by

:10:13.:10:26.

the media to the issues in 1914 that triggered the First World War. And

:10:27.:10:29.

the Prime Minister of Russia compared it to the beginnings of the

:10:30.:10:36.

80s, I think the beginning of the 80s both sides Russia and the west

:10:37.:10:41.

contained each other. The last real war dated back to 1956 in Hungary.

:10:42.:10:47.

If some of the estimates are right, then the loss of life, the

:10:48.:10:51.

casualties in the Ukraine has already counted in thousands rather

:10:52.:10:56.

than hundreds. What should happen next? I think for the time being

:10:57.:11:03.

both sides should probably put aside mutual recriminations and think what

:11:04.:11:05.

can be done to dissolve the situation. I doubt anybody in

:11:06.:11:11.

Moscow, in Washington, Europe or the Ukraine would have any doubts that

:11:12.:11:15.

the situation is so serious, it couldn't be more serious than it is.

:11:16.:11:20.

So we probably are standing at the brink of more hostilities, but for

:11:21.:11:23.

example if western sanctions really are transferred into sectoral and

:11:24.:11:30.

technological break on technology transfer to Russia, and clearly

:11:31.:11:34.

Russia is much more dependant on foreign technology than the Soviet

:11:35.:11:37.

Union used to be. If Europe stopped over a period of say two years to

:11:38.:11:42.

import Russian raw materials there will be a big price to pay for

:11:43.:11:45.

Russia, but also for Europe, and also for the United States. But we

:11:46.:11:50.

know that America has imposed tough sanctions, tomorrow European leaders

:11:51.:11:55.

will meet and be asked to impose tough sanctions. Is it time for

:11:56.:11:59.

tough sanctions on Russia, on Vladimir Putin? I would rather

:12:00.:12:04.

suggest visa versa, for at least some period of time. Because the

:12:05.:12:08.

more sanctions that are being put against Russia the more Russia would

:12:09.:12:12.

probably defend itself in its own way. It is not a right solution.

:12:13.:12:17.

Until recently the sanctions were more lip service, which is putting a

:12:18.:12:22.

threat and expecting that Russia would accommodate anybody. I think

:12:23.:12:25.

it is the wrong approach. Both sides, for some time, until they

:12:26.:12:28.

really understand that they have failed to find a solution and

:12:29.:12:32.

compromise should really put the sanctions and mutual threats and

:12:33.:12:35.

recriminations and other hostile actions on the side, on the shelf.

:12:36.:12:39.

Doesn't Vladimir Putin have to understand that the actions that he

:12:40.:12:44.

has taken in eastern Ukraine are unacceptable and surely the only

:12:45.:12:47.

reason you are saying that sanctions don't work and aren't visible is

:12:48.:12:51.

that you are a -- advisable is that you are a wealthy businessman who

:12:52.:12:55.

still has interests in Russia? Let's put it this way, if you carry on

:12:56.:13:02.

discussions in such a way that Vladimir Putin is responsible for

:13:03.:13:06.

all of that I don't think we can reach any solution at all. So we

:13:07.:13:11.

should probably both sides should accept a completely different

:13:12.:13:14.

attitude. At least for some time the terms should be made. Probably the

:13:15.:13:18.

Kremlin should appoint somebody very influential, but non-hawkish to try

:13:19.:13:23.

to deal with it and Europe and the United States should also try to

:13:24.:13:27.

accommodate Russia the way Russia would like to be seen in the process

:13:28.:13:31.

of negotiations, rather than cornering it. Because the more both

:13:32.:13:38.

sides come up with anomosities the less chances we have -- anomosities

:13:39.:13:44.

the less solutions there will be. Are you saying that we could

:13:45.:13:49.

sleepwalk into war, is that what you are saying, there is a possibility?

:13:50.:13:54.

Of the more building up into much more serious conflict? Yeah, yeah,

:13:55.:14:03.

yeah. If we are right that both sides the separatist and the

:14:04.:14:07.

Ukrainian army and the civilians have lost 10,000 lives, it is war

:14:08.:14:11.

already. If it goes further on I wonder if that can be stopped by

:14:12.:14:14.

anybody of becoming a bigger conflict. Under certain

:14:15.:14:20.

circumstance, I mean I wouldn't probably exclude any events being

:14:21.:14:25.

evolved. For example certain troops crossing certain borders, why not,

:14:26.:14:31.

it is possible, it depends what is going to happen, this is what

:14:32.:14:34.

happened before and this is what it led to, to millions of lives being

:14:35.:14:42.

lost without any reason. Addressing the Commons today ahead

:14:43.:14:46.

of tomorrow's meeting of European leaders, David Cameron said Russia

:14:47.:14:50.

cannot expect access to European markets and capital while it fuels a

:14:51.:14:54.

conflict in Ukraine, and called for future military sales to Russia from

:14:55.:14:58.

any country in Europe to stop. The PM said that we have already stopped

:14:59.:15:03.

such sales from Britain, but, Newsnight has learned that almost

:15:04.:15:07.

300 licenses remain in place permitting the sales of item,

:15:08.:15:11.

including sniper rifles and body armour. The Government says those

:15:12.:15:15.

exports are OK because the weapons are not for military use. But

:15:16.:15:20.

crickets say controls must be tight -- critics say controls must be

:15:21.:15:27.

tightened up. Not since the Cold War have relations between Russia and

:15:28.:15:31.

the west been so strained. The problem for the west is this man,

:15:32.:15:37.

President Putin. Long before the outrage of the downing of flight

:15:38.:15:44.

MH17, the UK had prided itself in leading international condemnation

:15:45.:15:50.

of Mr Putin's Russia. In March the UK announced a ban on any exports of

:15:51.:15:55.

UK equipment to Moscow. The UK with immediate effect will suspend all

:15:56.:16:00.

application licenses and procession of licenses for direct export to

:16:01.:16:05.

Russia for military and dual use items destined for units of the

:16:06.:16:08.

Russian Armed Forces or other state agencies, which could be or are

:16:09.:16:13.

being deployed against Ukraine. It sounds watertight. But Newsnight has

:16:14.:16:19.

discovered this list. It details how Britain is still exporting equipment

:16:20.:16:24.

worth ?132 million, that in the wrong hands could be used for

:16:25.:16:30.

military purposes. Newsnight can reveal 34 witnesses worth nearly ?40

:16:31.:16:36.

million were suspended or revoked, but another 297 licenses are still

:16:37.:16:41.

life. This is for so called dual use equipment that could have a military

:16:42.:16:45.

or commercial purpose. The list refers to Assault Rifles, body

:16:46.:16:49.

armour and sniper rifles. So, could this end up in their hands? No. The

:16:50.:16:53.

UK Government says this end up in their hands? No. The

:16:54.:16:57.

solely for business use. There is one license that stands out, it

:16:58.:17:05.

includes, among other things... Components or air-launched rockets,

:17:06.:17:10.

components or air-to-air missile, components for surface-to-air

:17:11.:17:13.

missile, components for aircraft canons, components orator paedos. It

:17:14.:17:18.

might sound like a line from a novel, but the Government insists

:17:19.:17:26.

this material is not that use, it is meant for the repairs to the

:17:27.:17:30.

Brazilian Navy. Confused? You won't be alone. MPs are too. In the light

:17:31.:17:37.

of what Mr Putin and Russia have been doing it seems extraordinary we

:17:38.:17:45.

should going on selling to them these things. It is time to stop all

:17:46.:17:50.

licenses for military equipment or dual use equipment to Russia. Once

:17:51.:17:53.

you make that equipment available you have absolutely no control over

:17:54.:17:57.

what it is used, or where it goes, and for all we know, some of that

:17:58.:18:01.

what it is used, or where it goes, equipment might have finished up in

:18:02.:18:03.

the hands of the dissidents or might do so in future. Last week's

:18:04.:18:10.

Farnborough Air Show was a show base for weapons manufacturers, but

:18:11.:18:13.

Newsnight understands a Parliamentary Committee will raise

:18:14.:18:17.

fresh concerns about the trade this Wednesday. Their report will urge

:18:18.:18:22.

ministers to explain, in detail, why Britain is selling military

:18:23.:18:25.

equipment to Russia, which is on a Foreign Office list of human rights

:18:26.:18:30.

abusers. We are relying on trust really? We are relying on trust and

:18:31.:18:35.

trust with dictators, we are relying on Government that is abuse human

:18:36.:18:38.

rights on a daily basis, not the sort of Government West should be

:18:39.:18:41.

doing business with. The Government insist it has never exported

:18:42.:18:45.

missiles or missile parts to the Russian military, and has suspended

:18:46.:18:53.

all licenses for equipment that could be used against the Ukraine.

:18:54.:18:58.

It says the UK aims to operate one of the most robust arms control

:18:59.:19:04.

systems in the world. Joining me now a Russian specialist and fellow at

:19:05.:19:09.

St Anthony's College, and from Washington a former permanent

:19:10.:19:13.

representative to NATO. We're also joined by our economics

:19:14.:19:16.

correspondent, who has been looking at the economicisms available for

:19:17.:19:21.

hitting Putin where it hurts. First of all, what could Europe agree to

:19:22.:19:32.

do tomorrow that will hit Russia tomorrow. They could copy US

:19:33.:19:41.

sanctions, they have banned several large important Russian companies

:19:42.:19:49.

from getting loans in the US. It has an impact and on the perceived

:19:50.:19:53.

investment in Russia. The US is different to the UK in terms of

:19:54.:20:00.

business ties and direct trade, it is more integrated into the Russian

:20:01.:20:03.

economy. Europe has the potential to inflict a lot more economic pain on

:20:04.:20:07.

Russia, but the other side of that it is more painful for Europe to

:20:08.:20:12.

take these sorts of steps. But one investor I was talking to today said

:20:13.:20:17.

many people have the risks wrong. They are perreceiving the risks that

:20:18.:20:21.

Europe puts in place tough sanctions and Russia responds and it hits the

:20:22.:20:27.

European economy. He says the bigger risk is Europe doesn't put the

:20:28.:20:32.

sanctions in, and Russia thinks it has immunity to carry on behaving

:20:33.:20:36.

the way it is. Without sanctions there would be no break on Putin's

:20:37.:20:43.

behaviour? Sanctions are actually resorted to when you don't know what

:20:44.:20:46.

else to do. We are at that point now. How to leverage Putin to

:20:47.:20:50.

deliver on what he said this morning he would do, hold him to his word.

:20:51.:20:55.

He said he would make sure there was a tough investigation and he said he

:20:56.:21:00.

would bring the separatist to the table. So sanctions, but carefully

:21:01.:21:04.

calibrated sanctions might be the way to make it credible as a threat

:21:05.:21:08.

to make him do what he says he will do. Would you accept that the

:21:09.:21:12.

American sanctions put in place quickly might be something that

:21:13.:21:18.

means they actually voted at the UN Security Council for full

:21:19.:21:20.

investigation. It might be those sanctions are working already?

:21:21.:21:23.

Difficult to say. I think they had an interest in showing that they are

:21:24.:21:27.

co-operative in terms of international organisations and

:21:28.:21:29.

international law. So we want to hold them to their own words really.

:21:30.:21:34.

Do you take Duncan's analysis that it is actually tougher in a way for

:21:35.:21:39.

Europe to impose sanctions the same way that America does, because it is

:21:40.:21:42.

going to hit Europe where it won't hit America? Well I take his

:21:43.:21:48.

analysis in both piece which, is yes there is going to be a greater

:21:49.:21:51.

impact on Europe than there is on the United States from the same set

:21:52.:21:55.

of sanction, but also that the impact of Europe on not doing that

:21:56.:21:59.

is also greater than putting in place the sanctions. I think that we

:22:00.:22:07.

have had six months now of Russia fermenting in the Ukraine, they have

:22:08.:22:13.

seen the arms and others across the border and if not provide them

:22:14.:22:17.

directly there are lots of reports of Russian Intelligence Services

:22:18.:22:21.

being in Ukraine already. Putin is not paying attention to our doing

:22:22.:22:24.

nothing. It is important to step forward with tougher sanctions to

:22:25.:22:27.

give the Russians a reason to try to negotiate back from that again. But,

:22:28.:22:36.

of course, for example take Ross Rosnef, 20% is owned by BP, there is

:22:37.:22:41.

a feeling that Europe will not move in the direction that America wants

:22:42.:22:47.

it to move, what is the impact of that? Putin has disregarded the

:22:48.:22:55.

western pleas to stop supporting the violence, he has sent signals to

:22:56.:22:59.

cool temperatures saying we will co-operate with the investigation,

:23:00.:23:02.

we don't have full control over these rebels, we will do our part.

:23:03.:23:07.

In the hopes that Tuesday's meeting of the EU foreign ministers blows

:23:08.:23:10.

past without any significant steps. And meanwhile he will then see that

:23:11.:23:14.

the west is not serious about putting in place any measure that is

:23:15.:23:17.

will hit Russia and therefore continue on the lines of

:23:18.:23:22.

destablising Ukraine and trying to cement Russian influence over these

:23:23.:23:26.

territories. As he has been doing already. We kind of take Crimea as

:23:27.:23:30.

just a matter of fact now, we don't even think about the fact that

:23:31.:23:38.

Crimea might be an infringement on a sovereign state. Isn't there a

:23:39.:23:41.

danger if we don't back up the American sanctions that Putin will

:23:42.:23:45.

feel he can stay in eastern Ukraine? The danger is if sanctions become a

:23:46.:23:50.

strategy of themselves without being hooked into a programme, a road map

:23:51.:23:54.

if you want, of a political kind they will not be effective. You

:23:55.:23:59.

think he wants way out? He wants a way out a political solution to the

:24:00.:24:03.

problem, and he wants to do it around the table with him at the

:24:04.:24:06.

table as well as Ukraine and the EU. Thank you very much indeed.

:24:07.:24:10.

Barack Obama has sent his Secretary of State, John Kerry, to Egypt

:24:11.:24:13.

tonight to try to achieve the UN Security Council call for an

:24:14.:24:17.

immediate cessation of hostilities between Israel and Hamas. Today's

:24:18.:24:21.

violence brought the number of Palestinians killed to more than 500

:24:22.:24:24.

according to Palestinian official, but Israel has said that seven of

:24:25.:24:27.

its soldiers have been killed in the past 24 hours, bringing the number

:24:28.:24:33.

of Israeli military dead to 25, along with two Israeli civilians who

:24:34.:24:36.

have also died since the ground invasion. A few moments ago I spoke

:24:37.:24:41.

to our international correspondent in Gaza City.

:24:42.:24:45.

Today across the Gaza strip was a day pretty much like every other day

:24:46.:24:50.

since the military escalation began two weeks ago. Despite what Israel

:24:51.:24:59.

has strategic objective, it wants the rockets fired into Israel and

:25:00.:25:04.

destroy the infrastructure of Hamas, but today civilians are paying a

:25:05.:25:08.

heavy price. We went today to a hospital not targeted at a time of

:25:09.:25:11.

war, doctors were killed and patients killed in their bed when

:25:12.:25:19.

tank shells slammed right into the intensive care unit at one of the

:25:20.:25:22.

main hospitals. A building collapsed in central Gaza tonight, at least 11

:25:23.:25:28.

people are dead. That is why there are urgent calls for a cease-fire.

:25:29.:25:31.

Every would-be mediator you could imagine is in the region. Ban

:25:32.:25:38.

Ki-Moon, Secretary of State, John Kerry has arrived in Cairo. Look

:25:39.:25:42.

across this region and what a troubled region t all the crises,

:25:43.:25:46.

all the taut lines go through Gaza such that when Secretary Kerry sits

:25:47.:25:48.

down to do his work, such that when Secretary Kerry sits

:25:49.:25:52.

take some time, he first has to establish who is doing what?

:25:53.:25:55.

take some time, he first has to about all the mediators from Doha to

:25:56.:26:00.

Istanbul, to Cairo to Washington, none of them have the sway to bring

:26:01.:26:05.

this crisis to an end, who has the most power and who is talking to

:26:06.:26:11.

who? It is a very complicated situation, and all the while the

:26:12.:26:16.

military situation gets worse and so does the humanitarian crisis year.

:26:17.:26:24.

-- here. What are both sides of the conflict. This film contains some

:26:25.:26:32.

distressing it images. Amid the rubble and ever-mounting death toll

:26:33.:26:37.

that is the Gaza conflict, a small snapshot of life endured by its

:26:38.:26:45.

inhabitants. The boy in the green T-shirt has been shot in the hand by

:26:46.:26:49.

a sniper. They discuss how to save them, but then more shots and he

:26:50.:27:00.

dies. The dead toll amongst Gaza's population has been horrific, over

:27:01.:27:03.

500 in recent days. Mostly civilians. If anything casualties

:27:04.:27:08.

have intensified there since Israeli forces advanced into Gaza on

:27:09.:27:16.

Thursday. And yet still Hamas militants keep firing their rockets

:27:17.:27:20.

at Israel, targeting civilian, ignoring calls for a cease-fire.

:27:21.:27:23.

This one was intercepted by an Israeli missile, but over 2,000 have

:27:24.:27:31.

been launched so far. TRANSLATION: We can't go back to the silent death

:27:32.:27:37.

of the blockade, Gaza has decided to end the blockade by its blood and

:27:38.:27:41.

courage, this unjust siege must be lifted. And Israel too is taking

:27:42.:27:48.

casualties, not as many, with 27 to date, all but two of them soldiers.

:27:49.:27:53.

Enough to shock the small country, but so far this military operation

:27:54.:27:56.

appears to have the nation's support. Calls by world leaders for

:27:57.:28:04.

it to stop are not being heeded. The violence must stop, it must stop

:28:05.:28:10.

now. All sides must provide the necessary space to aid the victims

:28:11.:28:18.

and wounded. Gaza is one of the most densely populated pieces of land in

:28:19.:28:24.

the world, almost two million people crammed into 140 square miles. Hence

:28:25.:28:28.

the very high rate of casualties amongst civilian, it is largely

:28:29.:28:31.

blockaded from the outside world. Within the teeming back streets,

:28:32.:28:35.

Hamas still has thousands of rockets, some of them capable of

:28:36.:28:40.

reaching as far as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. What is upsetting the

:28:41.:28:43.

Israelis are the tunnels, some of them are used for storing weapons,

:28:44.:28:46.

others for tunnelling under the border, to allow Palestinian

:28:47.:28:51.

militants to raid inside Israel. We understand with tens of tunnels that

:28:52.:28:55.

are possibly there, and with the 16 that we have already found, it can

:28:56.:28:58.

take some time. We have the patience to deal with it, we have the man

:28:59.:29:02.

power to deal with it. We have the expertise to deal with it. We have

:29:03.:29:06.

exploded and detonated five of those tunnels today. Israeli troops are

:29:07.:29:13.

locating more of Hamas's secret tunnels every day now. They set

:29:14.:29:21.

charges and blow them up. This is what they came into Gaza to do, at a

:29:22.:29:26.

heavy cost for both sides. But unless Israel plans on permanently

:29:27.:29:32.

reoccupying Gaza, the militants may just dig new ones when the Israelis

:29:33.:29:39.

leave. There is a mounting flurry of diplomatic shuttling between

:29:40.:29:42.

capitals to get the fighting stopped. It now has to be our focus

:29:43.:29:46.

and the focus of the international community to bring about a

:29:47.:29:49.

cease-fire that ends the fighting, and that can stop the deaths of

:29:50.:29:54.

innocent civilians. The US Secretary of State has been lending his

:29:55.:29:59.

weight, so far with limited effec Neither side yet feels it has

:30:00.:30:05.

achieved its objectives. Hamas rejected the cease-fire proposal

:30:06.:30:08.

from Egypt last week, it is pushing for a permanent lifting of the

:30:09.:30:12.

blockade from Gaza. But Hamas is a relatively weakened, isolated force,

:30:13.:30:16.

it has lost a lot of friends and allies around the region, notably

:30:17.:30:21.

Syria and the previous Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. So now it will

:30:22.:30:24.

be looking a way out of this conflict. The Egyptians are not in a

:30:25.:30:28.

strong position to mediate with Hamas because they are seen as part

:30:29.:30:34.

of the problem rather than part of the solution. The Qataris have a

:30:35.:30:39.

potential and the Turk have a potential. But the elephant in the

:30:40.:30:44.

room is Iran, who is supplying Hamas with the arms. This is the worst

:30:45.:30:48.

bout of fighting between Israel and the Palestinian militants of Hamas

:30:49.:30:53.

in five years. Even if and when a cease-fire is agreed, it will only

:30:54.:30:57.

be just that, a cease-fire. Not a lasting peace deal. That prospect

:30:58.:31:04.

now seems further away than ever. Now we can speak to the Deputy

:31:05.:31:10.

Speaker in the Knesset, and a member of Israel's Labour Party. He's in

:31:11.:31:13.

Jerusalem. Here in the studio with me is the Israeli author and

:31:14.:31:20.

academic. First of all, the history of the conflict between Israel and

:31:21.:31:28.

Hamas is that nobody wins. Yet you and it appears the majority of the

:31:29.:31:34.

Israeli people back the ground invasion? It is not natural in the

:31:35.:31:37.

Israeli opposition of the Labour Party to support, to give back

:31:38.:31:41.

support to Prime Minister Netenyahu, but we are supporting him on the

:31:42.:31:45.

ground invasion to Gaza on this whole operation, because Israel came

:31:46.:31:48.

to a point when we don't have a choice. We have a brutal, very, very

:31:49.:31:54.

bad terror organisation that we have to deal with, that shooting

:31:55.:31:58.

thousands of rockets on women and children on the south of Israel and

:31:59.:32:03.

to Tel Aviv and even north of Tel Aviv, and the Israelis deserve to

:32:04.:32:07.

have blue skies free of rockets as any other country in the world. This

:32:08.:32:10.

is why we in the Labour Party, the entire Knesset members, I think,

:32:11.:32:14.

support the Prime Minister, support the IDF, our soldiers, they were

:32:15.:32:19.

killed just night, that going in on an mission to save the lives of the

:32:20.:32:23.

Israeli people, because this is the reality we are having, this is the

:32:24.:32:26.

reality we are having since the establishment of Israel. We are

:32:27.:32:30.

living on our sword with no other chance. If I may a one thing. I just

:32:31.:32:35.

want to bring in our guest here. It is understandable, surely, for

:32:36.:32:38.

Israelis that they want to remove the threat, they want to remove the

:32:39.:32:42.

threat apart from anything else of the tunnels that seem to pop up in

:32:43.:32:47.

kibbutz, and the middle of people's gardens, complete insecurity? This

:32:48.:32:55.

is not understandable to me. Because the conflict between Israel and the

:32:56.:32:59.

Palestinians is at its core a political conflict. There is no

:33:00.:33:03.

military solution to this conflict. So no amount of military force by

:33:04.:33:08.

Israel is going to resolve the conflict. The Israelis tried again

:33:09.:33:13.

and again, it has launched a full scale assault on Gaza in 2008/09,

:33:14.:33:20.

then there was another round of violence in 2012 which ended with a

:33:21.:33:25.

cease-fire. And there is another round of violence. So both sides

:33:26.:33:31.

accuse the other of initiating the violence. The chain of action and

:33:32.:33:36.

reaction is endless. But the underlying calls, the context for

:33:37.:33:42.

the violence is Israeli colonialism and the Israeli occupation of

:33:43.:33:51.

Palestinian territories. So do you see any merit in saying there is an

:33:52.:33:54.

occupation that has to be ended now, that is the only way to end this

:33:55.:34:02.

conflict? By the way I agree that an all-military solution will not bring

:34:03.:34:07.

an end to Hamas. We have to combine both military and diplomatic steps

:34:08.:34:10.

in order to fight with Hamas. But you talked about these tunnel, I'm

:34:11.:34:14.

asking you, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of invested in Gaza by

:34:15.:34:23.

Israel withdrawn from Gaza. 00,000 tonnes of cement was used to build

:34:24.:34:26.

the tunnels instead of building schools and hospitals and buildings

:34:27.:34:32.

for affordable housing in Gaza in order to make Gaza the next Brighton

:34:33.:34:36.

Beach or Monaco, order to make Gaza the next Brighton

:34:37.:34:38.

organisation does not want peace with Israel. There is no equivalence

:34:39.:34:43.

in death, every death is a tragedy. But if you look at this, there is

:34:44.:34:45.

more, But if you look at this, there is

:34:46.:34:49.

authorities, there is more than 500 Palestinians killed, each death

:34:50.:34:53.

regrettable, the same way that each death of an Israeli soldier and

:34:54.:34:57.

civilians are regrettable. If the head of the UN says there has been

:34:58.:35:02.

atrocities, atrocious action does anybody actually listen to Ban

:35:03.:35:06.

Ki-Moon? You know this claim is making me furious, because it is

:35:07.:35:10.

like Israel has to apologise that we don't have as many casualties like

:35:11.:35:15.

the Palestinians, or like Hamas that uses civilians as human shields. In

:35:16.:35:20.

the Middle East, in the crazy zoo of the neighbourhood. Of the Middle

:35:21.:35:24.

East if you are not strong, if Israel is not strong we would not

:35:25.:35:33.

exist. Do you accept that? No I don't. Israel is the

:35:34.:35:39.

fourth-strongest military power in the world. The Palestinians are a

:35:40.:35:43.

negligible threat. They don't pose any threat to Israel's basic

:35:44.:35:49.

security. What is fundamental to this conflict is the asymmetry of

:35:50.:35:55.

power between the two sides. So the Palestinians are the weak party, the

:35:56.:36:00.

vulnerable party, and the trouble with Israel is that it has so much

:36:01.:36:05.

military power and it uses this all the time. Ever since Israel, ever

:36:06.:36:16.

since the occupation began in 1967 Israel has shunned meaningful

:36:17.:36:20.

negotiations with the Palestinians. But if Hamas wants to obliterate

:36:21.:36:25.

Israel, what is Israel to do, if that is Hamas's stated aim, what on

:36:26.:36:30.

earth is Israel to do? Hamas has a terrible charter but it has a group

:36:31.:36:37.

of pragmatic military, pragmatic political leaders who have been

:36:38.:36:40.

moving towards moderation all the time. Is it possible that actually

:36:41.:36:45.

Israel will have to talk to Hamas, Hamas says it doesn't want to talk

:36:46.:36:49.

to Israel, do you think Israel should try to talk to Hamas? Yes,

:36:50.:36:55.

Israel will happily talk to Hamas if they will make a shift and do what

:36:56.:37:02.

the choice was two decades ago, that a military solution is not the

:37:03.:37:07.

solution. Israel not like Hamas or the Palestinians, proved before that

:37:08.:37:10.

when they have partners for peace and are reminded that both Egypt and

:37:11.:37:16.

Jordan were much worse of enemies to Israel than Hamas or the

:37:17.:37:18.

Palestinians, so we are talking to them and giving away territories and

:37:19.:37:23.

we are giving away natural infrastructure, resources, water and

:37:24.:37:27.

if Israel doesn't have something, if natural resources water and

:37:28.:37:31.

territory, which we gave only in order to have peace, so Hamas has to

:37:32.:37:39.

do what others do, and to say we are not fighting and making these

:37:40.:37:42.

struggles through terror, we are talking with the other side and if

:37:43.:37:45.

they will want to make a dialogue with us we will be more than happy

:37:46.:37:50.

to get to the two-state solution, that is the only solution for us. We

:37:51.:37:53.

could continue this debate for loaning time, thank you very much

:37:54.:37:55.

for joining us tonight. Who hasn't heard of Kevin Spay's

:37:56.:38:04.

series of House of Cards, it is a revolution in the broadcasting world

:38:05.:38:08.

changing how TV is consumed and commissioned. Companies like Amazon

:38:09.:38:14.

and Netflix offer TV on demand, no scheduler to tell us what to watch

:38:15.:38:18.

and when to watch it. Because this TV is consumed via the Internet,

:38:19.:38:23.

they are able to harness huge amount of data to tailor content to us.

:38:24.:38:36.

This new way is it just about technology?

:38:37.:38:39.

This is how TV used to work. The A-team have been moved to 6.00,

:38:40.:38:46.

quick schedule an episode of Blankity Blank. TV schedules were

:38:47.:38:52.

planned with military air, commissioners would decide what we

:38:53.:38:55.

would watch and controllers when we got to watch it. But now streaming

:38:56.:39:03.

services like Netflix and Amazon instant video allow viewers to be

:39:04.:39:07.

their own channel controllers. Behind the scenes TV is changing

:39:08.:39:10.

fast, both in the way it is consumed and the way it is commissioned. It

:39:11.:39:15.

gets me to bounce out of day every day to realise I'm at the centre of

:39:16.:39:19.

a revolution, how people are consuming their entertainment at

:39:20.:39:23.

home. Content is still king of TV land, that hasn't changed. House of

:39:24.:39:29.

Cards would be landmark television in any age, but there shall we say,

:39:30.:39:33.

a new Chief Whip in town, driving us towards that content. I almost pity

:39:34.:39:38.

him, he didn't choose to be put on my planet. Leading this revolution

:39:39.:39:44.

is Netflix, based here in Calafornia. They started renting out

:39:45.:39:50.

DVDs through the post and now streaming shows to 50 million

:39:51.:39:54.

customers in more than 40 countries. We were given rare access to their

:39:55.:39:58.

development team. We have a few minutes and that's it. People will

:39:59.:40:13.

give the produce and they have to choose or they will leave. There is

:40:14.:40:16.

positive spin on the challenges faced, the problem isn't people

:40:17.:40:21.

finding too much that they want to watch, or anything, it is a

:40:22.:40:24.

particular challenge in the UK where the Netflix catalogue is thinner

:40:25.:40:28.

than in the US. Nevertheless, it is his job to make sure that every

:40:29.:40:32.

subscriber finds something that grabs them within a few minutes of

:40:33.:40:36.

looking. When you have internet TV, you basically have a direct

:40:37.:40:40.

relationship with the use e you don't throw something -- user, you

:40:41.:40:46.

don't throw something out to the airways and you leave it out there

:40:47.:40:51.

and hope that journals at home, you know what they watched and what time

:40:52.:40:56.

they watched it, the velocity they went from one episode to the next,

:40:57.:41:00.

or if it is a film did they watch the whole thing or punt on it after

:41:01.:41:06.

five minutes. We know what you say you like and what you actually like.

:41:07.:41:11.

We in theed your grant is a violent reveining thriller fan. To process

:41:12.:41:16.

the data coming from the audience, Netflix needs to gather similar

:41:17.:41:22.

information about the show or film. How violent, romantic, funny is it,

:41:23.:41:27.

are there guns or drugs in it, is the ending happy or sat? Male

:41:28.:41:34.

nudity, female nudity, sex, drugs, drinking, smoking. This is the fun

:41:35.:41:39.

stuff. Greg reckons he has pretty much the best job in the world. He's

:41:40.:41:46.

one of 40 Netflix taggers, he watches the show and fills in dozens

:41:47.:41:52.

of data fields about it. Have you watched Newsnight, we have squirm

:41:53.:41:58.

factors! Tagging is not a cricket. I'm not reviewing any of these. Also

:41:59.:42:02.

it is not even about referring good movies or bad to you, you might love

:42:03.:42:10.

bad movies, we will try to match those to you. It is about getting

:42:11.:42:13.

you movies you like. There is no subjectivity there. Like you know,

:42:14.:42:19.

if I hate a movie there is nothing I can do to keep it away from you. If

:42:20.:42:25.

it sounds like your cup of tea, Netflix is now advertising for the

:42:26.:42:30.

first tagger in the UK. No truesers flying through the air? No. The

:42:31.:42:39.

English language doesn't travel across them water so smoothly. I

:42:40.:42:45.

blame Oscar Wilde, if you take a tag like "witty", that is used in the US

:42:46.:42:49.

differently than in the UK. The UK you guys just have a higher barks I

:42:50.:42:53.

blame that on Shakespeare, it is a different use of the word, so

:42:54.:42:57.

someone with those kinds of sensitivites on how you are tagging

:42:58.:43:01.

and labelling titles from a language perspective and having the

:43:02.:43:04.

perspective of someone who is a Brit, that is important to us. It is

:43:05.:43:26.

all three of you, come here, give me a kiss... . It is not just Netflix

:43:27.:43:30.

changing the way TV is made, there are plenty of other companies too.

:43:31.:43:35.

We are at the paramount lot in Hollywood, where they have been

:43:36.:43:38.

making generations of TV programmes. I think it is safe to say nothing

:43:39.:43:45.

quite like this. This is Josh I was telling you about, single and

:43:46.:43:49.

gorgeous. This is Transparent, a comedy family drama produced by

:43:50.:43:54.

Amazon instant video, the pilot was one of ten shows Amazon offered to

:43:55.:43:58.

subscribers who were then asked to pick what they wanted to see more

:43:59.:44:03.

of, Transparent was a clear winner. This was crowdsourced commissioning,

:44:04.:44:08.

the creator, Jill Soloway has a string of writing credits, including

:44:09.:44:13.

Six Feet Under, she says this way of creating TV is a big improvement. We

:44:14.:44:17.

have so little of the typical network interference you would

:44:18.:44:22.

normally see. Normally there would be 15-20 people on the set giving

:44:23.:44:25.

notes on every performance and really giving notes that are related

:44:26.:44:28.

to their fear of what might not work. I think in the old way people

:44:29.:44:33.

would come up with ideas, and the television networks would then take

:44:34.:44:38.

those ideas and bring them to people who sold toilet paper and asked the

:44:39.:44:42.

people who sold toilet paper if they would like to put their toilet paper

:44:43.:44:48.

commercials on to this content. They were making content that they hoped

:44:49.:44:55.

big brands would want to align themselves with. I need to talk to

:44:56.:44:59.

you about something, there is a big change going on. But shows like

:45:00.:45:03.

Transparent are different in another way too. Dealing as it does with the

:45:04.:45:07.

struggles of transgender man coming out to his family, it isn't to

:45:08.:45:12.

everyone's taste, but the on-demand model gives it permission to be

:45:13.:45:16.

hated by most people, as long as some people really love it. In the

:45:17.:45:19.

past channel executives would pursue a mass audience, aiming for a show

:45:20.:45:24.

that lots of people thought was quite good. Today that's useless, in

:45:25.:45:30.

an on-demand environment, no-one will demand that show, that show

:45:31.:45:34.

will go to zero. So you have to look to the passionate audience that

:45:35.:45:38.

usually comes from an artist with a vision. For some one who is like

:45:39.:45:43.

that, you know, it is hard for me to tell them how to create a better

:45:44.:45:51.

expression of their vision. We are still in the very early days of this

:45:52.:45:55.

TV revolution, but it is clear already where it is going. The TV

:45:56.:45:58.

companies will gather and harness as much data as we're comfortable with,

:45:59.:46:04.

in order to tailor content to us. Society in the long run, not this

:46:05.:46:08.

particular year, maybe not next year, but generation over

:46:09.:46:13.

generation, society will get more comfortable with sharing more

:46:14.:46:18.

information at a certain place because that is where t world is

:46:19.:46:22.

going. The world is going towards the information is out there then it

:46:23.:46:25.

can be leveraged to make a better and better experience for people to

:46:26.:46:28.

put the right content in front of them at the right time. Your TV is

:46:29.:46:34.

no longer an idiot box, it is getting smarter all the time. As

:46:35.:46:39.

ever, with the tantalising temptations of the information age,

:46:40.:46:43.

there is a Faustian element to the bargain, revealing more information

:46:44.:46:46.

about ourselves, supply more data, in return for more of the TV we want

:46:47.:46:54.

to watch. That is just about it for tonight. Proms fans will know that

:46:55.:46:59.

we are on day four of 58 and we are getting in on the act too. Every

:47:00.:47:02.

Friday until September we will be bringing you a different preview

:47:03.:47:06.

here on Newsnight. And to throw ahead to our special proms season,

:47:07.:47:13.

here is Alison Ballsom, performing the trumpet concerto with piano

:47:14.:47:16.

accompaniment.

:47:17.:48:46.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

Newsnight is on the ground in Donetsk. Plus, why are we still selling arms to Russia?; Gaza; an interview with Alex Salmond; how Netflix killed the middle-brow; and the Proms.