Browse content similar to 07/08/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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can get it, we found out that Whitehall is paying some people | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
?2,000 a day for advice. Why is the Civil Service secretly now having to | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
blow so much on private consultants? I think there are big questions | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
about whether we are getting value for money from these consultant, not | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
least because there is a severe lack of transparency about what they are | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
actually doing. The Government have to be open and transparent about who | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
is being paid, how much and to do what? Vladimir Putin puts sanctions | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
on us. Should we care? Will we notice? Liam Fox used to be Defence | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
Secretary, he thinks we should send troops to Eastern Europe. And | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
remember this... It is time for something different, something bold, | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
the Big Society is something different and bold. Mentioned it 100 | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
times in year 1, this year not so much. Why did Big Society get the | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
chop. We are wedded to the old idea of the market is the answer to the | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
problems, but most of the best people in the parties know that is | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
not true and are looking for an alternative. Who are these people? | :01:12. | :01:20. | |
Here's one. Earlier this year Cabinet Office | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
Minister, Francis Maude claimed he had saved billions of tax-payers' | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
money by reducing the size of the Civil Service. The Government has | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
pledged to be transparent about all public servants earning more than | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
?150,000. But Newsnight has learned through a Freedom of Information | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
request that the Government is paying at least 30 people working | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
across different departments up to ?2,000 day. A detail missing from | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
the salary information released to the public. We're supposed to know | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
who earns the big bucks in Westminster. Everyone knows the | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
Prime Minister is on ?142,000. And that the head of MI 6 gets ?165,000. | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
But now Newsnight can reveal the hidden existence of an elite, whose | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
time is worth more money than anyone els. . We are not allowed to know | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
who they are and what they do, but we have managed to lift the lid a | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
little on their secret world. It has taken months of wrangling with | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
Whitehall official, but we have discovered there are at least 30 | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
consultants, working across five Government departments, who are | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
earning between ?1,000-?2,000 day. How often do they work? We don't | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
know, because the Government won't say. But what I have been told is | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
there are consultants here at the Ministry of Defence who have worked | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
for several years on day rates of near enough ?1,000. That could be | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
?240,000 a year. I think people would be extremely concerned about | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the number of consultants being paid vast amounts of money for merely a | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
day's work in Government. Government is rightly reducing the head count | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
of the Civil Service, but you can't negate those benefits of that | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
reduction in staffing by then paying huge amounts to consultants instead. | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Do you think we are getting value for money from these consultants? I | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
think there are big questions about whether we are getting value for | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
money from these consultant, not least because there is a severe lack | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
of transparency about what they are actually doing. According to our | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
figures the Department of Transport has ten people earning between | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
?1,000-?2,000 a day. The Ministry of Justice eight, the Department of | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
Energy and climate has five, the Home Office has four, the Treasury 2 | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
and the Ministry of Defence 1. But that isn't the only money the | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
MOD has spent, over the last five years it has spent ?1. 1 million for | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
technical support, money that has had to come out of the military's | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
equipment budget. That is the equivalent of one new nuclear | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
submarine or 14 new fighter jets, certainly more than enough to spare | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
the 32,000 jobs that have been lost. No wonder then that the Government | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
promised crackdown. Of course there are things we can simply stop doing, | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
advertising, consultant, IT. Despite the claims there are signs that | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
consultancy culture across Whitehall is alive and thriving. Take the Home | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
Office, last year its bill for consultants and other experts rose | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
from ?65-?90 million. So what is going on? Something like one in five | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
civil servants has left over the past few years, that has caused | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
major problems in terms of operational capacity and resources. | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
And of course cuts are a blunt instrument. So alongside those cuts | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
there has been a very significant erosion of the skills base, | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
exacerbated by the large and growing pay gap with the private sector for | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
key skills, so there is a major recruitment and retention problem in | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
a number of areas, a number of specialist areas across the Civil | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
Service. The Government told Newsnight that spending on | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
consultants has dropped by three-quarters to ?370 million last | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
year. They say they have made good on their pledge. But some people say | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
the picture is a bit more complicated. It is not one single | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
line in the accounts which talk about the costs of external | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
consultant, rather they could be external consultants, technical | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
support, they could be fee-paid staff, they could be interim | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
managers, in other words the picture is obscure. So there are all kinds | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
of pots of money that Government departments can use to pay for | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
consultants to make it difficult for us to know what they are being paid? | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
I believe that is the case, yes. At the Department for Transport they | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
are recruiting a Director of Communications. A job for a temp, | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
apparently, although a well paid one. The row over consultants isn't | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
only about whether the Government should hire them, it is about how | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
many there are and how much they are paid. And whether weir entitled to | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
know the details. -- whether we are entitled to know the details. Here | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
with me to discuss the consultancy culture are my guests. | :06:36. | :06:46. | |
Why do we need any consultants? I think that when you are running | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
public services at times you may need expertise that you need to | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
bring in, you might need to bring that in for a short period of time, | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
so any organisation whether it is in the private or public sector has | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
people that it brings in for that particular time. The thing is with | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
the figures shown they are masking two key issues, the Government has | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
reduced the size of the Civil Service by 20% but hasn't reduced | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
demands, they are asking more rather than less, and pay has fallen | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
significantly behind levels from the private sector. So they have to | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
bring people in on these sorts of arrangements to mask the problems | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
they have over long-term pay. So protecting the interests of your | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
members you are clearly, why aren't they up to the jobs being done by | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
the consultants? It is not a matter of not being up to the job. Any | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
organisation will promote and recruit people from outside. Most | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
organisations, particularly big ones like the Civil Service, have a | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
mixture of staff from outside and inside. Increasingly what the Civil | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Service is finding is when it goes outside and it tries to recruit, it | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
can't recruit people because it pays a half or a third of what it pays in | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
the private sector. I think it was Margaret Thatcher in 1979 who put | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
the ceiling on what civil servants can earn. This Government has been | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
very keen not to have any of them earning more than the Prime | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
Minister, that ?150,000 ceiling, that is a compelling case, if you | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
can't pay top dollar you can't get top talent? We don't know if that is | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
the case because of the lack of transparency in how the Government | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
is dealing with the issue of bringing in external consultants to | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
do this job. We could say it was good value if the Government could | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
point us to the projects that these external consultants have been | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
brought in to do. Telling us these specific projects have been finished | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
successfully or on track to finish, and that is why we have the | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
consultants in. Government can't do that. Isn't part of the reason why | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
the Government is reluctant to do that, if it is revealed that they | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
paid ?300,000 to get a consultant to do this job you would be on the | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
phone to Fleet Street with the story? Not if the Government could | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
give us information about successful projects completed because of the | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
involvement of those people. At the moment we don't know, we're out of | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
pocket as tax-payers, we don't know where the money is gone and on the | :09:17. | :09:18. | |
other hand the Government is not really able to point us to anything | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
they have done with that money. Neither us nor the Government come | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
out looking good out of this. Are we getting value for money, or is it | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
impossible to say one way or the other? The Government has saved | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
about ?11 billion over the last four years in the Civil Service. The | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
Civil Service continues to provide value for money for the taxpayer, it | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
is reduced by 20% over the last four years without any reduction in | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
demand, I call that good value for money. But the reality of it is, the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
Government is operating in the market place. When it goes out to | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
recruit or tries to retain staff, people will look at salary level | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
elsewhere, over a decade now it has simply fallen behind the market. We | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
have to spend money to save money effectively? It tough there being a | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
public servant, it is tough managing big public services, and at times I | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
think what that means is you need to make sure that you are retaining and | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
attracting the best talent and with that comes a price tag. That's what | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
the Government wheel has to face up to. What departments are doing is | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
simply masking that by this sort of approach around consultants. We | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
absolutely agree there should be transparency, this is masking a | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
long-term pay problem that Government is just closing its ears | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
to. That is a very good point brought up there, if the Government | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
could tell us we are spending X amount of money per day, almost | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
?2,000 per day on one single person because in the long run it will save | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
us this amount of money, tax-payers would understand and we would know | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
we were getting something for the money we are spending, we are not | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
getting that. How much does it cost to audit and produce the figures you | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
are hoping for, it is the hope that every time someone does an hour for | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
the Government it should be made public? It is straight forward, your | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
researchers had to do an FOI to get these figures out, why not make that | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
transparent. How much does it cost to get the information out there. | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
Toss the Taxpayers' Alliance would leap on them if it was out they were | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
making these sorts of monies? Is anyone out there in private sector | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
worth these sorts of sums? What every job is going to be worth | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
surely will depend on the job involved. For example a great | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
example. In the private sector is anybody worth that sort of money? | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
That is up to the shareholders to decide and they will go through that | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
process. But in the public sector definitely not? In the public sector | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
we are the shareholders, the Government has a responsibility to | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
convince us that the salaries being paid are actually worth it, and that | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
is the only thing that we are saying, really. Be tonight, the UN | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
Security Council held an emergency meeting on Iraq to discuss the rapid | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
advances made by the Islamist militants ISIS across northern Iraq, | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
which have proved so deadly for religious and ethnic minorities in | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
the region. Now President Obama says the US is considering a range of | :12:14. | :12:23. | |
options to help thousands of beleaguered members of the Yazidis. | :12:24. | :12:34. | |
These members of the Yazidi secretary have trapped on a | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
mountainside. They explain their desperation. TRANSLATION: They have | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
blocked the road to the mountains and the road down the mountains, | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
there is no water and people are dying of thirst, children are dying | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
and being buried under the rocks. TRANSLATION: They took girls and | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
raped them, they said that Yazidis have to convert to Islam, this | :12:56. | :13:04. | |
cannot happen. The Yazidis are an ancient sect, the extremists of ISIS | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
consider them devil worshippers. As ISIS has advanced across northern | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
and western Iraq, it has targeted religious and ethnic minorities, | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
some 200,000 Iraqis have been displaced from their homes. In | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
Nineveh, ISIS has purged members of minorities. Last month hundreds of | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
Christians fled moss sell, the major city, after ISIS gave an ultimatum, | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
convert to Islam, pay a special tax or be executed. Thousands of Yazidis | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
have been trapped on a mountainside after fleeing a takeover. Yesterday | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
it was confirmed that ISIS have taken control of Qaraqosh, close to | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
the border of Kurdistan. The US is looking at options to help the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
Stranded Yazidis, ranging from an air drop of humanitarian supplies to | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
air strikes against the ISIS fighters. This Yazidi is clear what | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
about what he wants from the international community. | :14:14. | :14:15. | |
TRANSLATION: We don't want cars, money, donations or food. We want | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
the international community to get water and food to the trapped | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
Yazidis or to get them out. Otherwise it will be a humanitarian | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
disaster. The world is now watching this humanitarian crisis unfold. But | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
will anyone intervene? To discuss the might of Christians | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
and other minorities in Iraq is Canon Andrew White, the cap lane of | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
St George's Anglican Church in Baghdad, who estimates his own flock | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
has reduced by a sixth in the last decade. Flock | :14:50. | :15:02. | |
What kinds of people are presenting themselves at the church? Over the | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
years we have actually represented everybody, not just Christians, so | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
we have Yazidis, Shia, Sunni, Mandian, all the minority groups | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
represented, and they come regularly to share in worship and their very | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
substantial relief programme that we organise. We have a clinic, we have | :15:32. | :15:40. | |
a school, and we try to provide a very comprehensive service, but now | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
they are all at risk and they all have nothing. But there is a slight | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
delay in the link, my apologies, and thank you for your patience. So | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
people are arriving with nothing in their pockets and nowhere to go? And | :15:56. | :16:12. | |
that is the challenge to help those who have nothing. Over the last few | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
days we have been up here in the north of Iraq trying to ensure that | :16:17. | :16:25. | |
we are providing holistically for all the people from whatever sect or | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
religion despite us being Christian in orientation. We are there for | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
everybody. Everybody is being massacred, slaughtered and what they | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
experience is worse than you could ever imagine. What should the | :16:45. | :16:53. | |
international community be doing to help? I don't know if you can hear | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
me, what would you like to see the international community doing right | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
now? Well, the international community has got to wake up to the | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
needs of the people. Our people, I mean all of the people, they have | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
nothing, they need to be provided for, they need to be given some | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
future and some hope and the international community needs to | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
take seriously their needs and start meeting their needs. So that they | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
are not just left on the side. Finally Father, can you concede of a | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
moment where you might advise your own congregation to quit Iraq, day | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
when perhaps there would be no Christians left in the country at | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
all? I have always said to our people, I'm not going to leave you, | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
don't you leave me. Now I can't say that any longer. If I tell them not | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
to leave I'm saying you have to be prepared to die for your faith. That | :18:13. | :18:19. | |
is what is happening. We have had people's heads chopped off, we are | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
having people convert, we are even having children slaughtered and cut | :18:28. | :18:40. | |
in half. Yes, we have no bananas, I can't quite see novelty songs like | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
that featuring too highly on a Vladimir Putin playlist. But he | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
might soon be singing it in spirit to the Russian people after today's | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
announcement of retaliatory sanctions designed to halt the | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
import of all food from the west. The idea, of course, is this will | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
hurt the west a lot more than the Russians. But has Putin bitten off | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
more than he can chew. Here is our diplomatic editor. | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
Opinion can be treacherous, one minute a leader can be tried | :19:13. | :19:22. | |
bestride the globe and bag the Olympic, the next it has been | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
horribly complicated. A few weeks ago people were hailing Vladimir | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
Putin as a master strategist for outmanoeuvring the west. Now it | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
seems he has a series of interwoven and intractable problems, with | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
Russian separatist in Ukraine and the population of Crimea, and in | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
particular with the Russian economy and how he gets it to move forward | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
under western sanctions. Obviously he's feeling under a certain amount | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
of strain. He's in an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
with the west. He's aware that the west is richer and better armed n | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
all sorts of ways it could be dominant. On the other hand he's | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
defending what he views as a vital national interest which is | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
protection of Russian interests in Ukraine. He's not going to back down | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
readily. The first issue, the Ukraine conflict. Fighting has now | :20:13. | :20:28. | |
reached the outskirts of dons of Donestk. Does Putin abandon or | :20:29. | :20:37. | |
invade. The head of NATO was urging the Russians not to go in. Russia | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
has massed large forces on the Ukrainian border, to seal the | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
separatist and to use any pretext to intervene even further. So I call on | :20:51. | :21:01. | |
Russia to step back from the brink. But today on sanctions the Russians | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
under the ante, they banned many western foods, responding to recent | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
sanctions from the west. Polish apple growers have been denied a | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
market and are asking their people to eat them as their patriotic duty. | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
And the Baltic Republics too are likely to suffer. But some argue | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
Russian consumers will be the big losers. Mr Putin judges that they | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
can take the pain. Point about Russia, to understand, is that it is | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
a country which can show fantastic solidarity when facing external | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
threats. Look at the Second World War. That is exactly what has shown | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
newspaper the course of the crisis he has the support of over 80% of | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
the Russian people. He's pretty confident, I think, that the Russian | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
public will put up with a certain amount of economic unhappiness in | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
order to stand up for Mother Russia. But the state of the Russian economy | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
still poses big problems. There is capital flight and the confidence of | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
foreign investors has been shaken. It all threatens deep recession. The | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
bigger picture here is Russia's economy was struggling well before | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
the crisis in Ukraine, growth had slowed markedly and the economy was | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
already on the brink ref session. One of the ways that Russia needs to | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
revive its economy is by attracting foreign investment to really raise | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
the quality of technology and the capital stock, and all of these | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
recent developments go against that. This square at the centre of Kiev | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
where Ukraine's revolution began was the scene of fresh trouble today. | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
The Government, long overdue, is trying to clear is. This crisis has | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
already placed President Putin at the centre of an east-west battle. | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
It could still produce a major war in Europe. | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
Liam Fox is the former Defence Secretary who warned back in 2010 of | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
the threat of state-on-state warfare from Russia. He's here to discuss | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
Putin's latest manoeuvres. Dr Fox, do you feel vindicated by these | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
events? No, but I think a lot of people have been saying for a long | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
time that Putin respects only two things, consistency and strength, | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
and the west has not shown either of them in great measure. We saw the | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
cyber attack on Estonia, a NATO partner, we did nothing. Russia | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
invaded Georgia, we effectively did nothing. And we saw Russia backing | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
Syria, even when Syria used chemical weapons and famously with the red | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
lines drawn by President Obama, we did nogin. That sends a lot of | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
signals to someone like Putin who is effectively a bully and runs a | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
thuggish regime, that the west will not stand up to his actions. You | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
describe an escalation, they are three examples of the same problem, | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
not necessarily an increase in Putin's boldness, or Putin's | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
appetite for a fight? I would disagree. I would think there is an | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
escalation there between a cyber attack on Estonia and the annexation | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
of Crimea. But he went into Georgia? He went into Georgia and he has an | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
occupation force still there. We don't call it an occupation force, | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
but what else do you call it when foreign forces are on your sovereign | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
territory, develop military bases and refuse to leave. He has done an | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
interesting thing, decribing his role and defender of all people of | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
Russian ethnicity that is interesting to the sovereign state | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
description of the world? That is to on absolutely nailing the issue. | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
Putin has two views that incompatible with our view of the | :24:43. | :24:44. | |
world. The first is to say that Russia has a sphere of influence, | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
and we in the west believe that sovereign nations should be the | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
arbiters of their own destiny. That is incompatible. Secondly, he has | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
said that ethnic Russians are not to be protected by the countries they | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
live and the laws and constitutions of their Government, but an external | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
power, for example Russia. That blows a hole in everything we | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
understand in terms of international law and norms since World War II. It | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
plays well at home, it appeals to the nationalistic fervent that gives | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
Railtrackings that only Kim Jong ILL beat in the world. And so perhaps | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
your desire to put troops on the ground in Ukraine would add to the | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
national inks fervour in Moscow and keeping Putin in power? I never said | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
to deploy troops in eastern Ukraine but Eastern Europe where there are | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
ethnic Russians and where the Putin doctrine would say we are free to | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
intervene when we want. I think it is important to understand that the | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
smaller NATO members, particularly the Baltic states, who have in some | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
cases very high numbers of ethnic Russians are very worried about this | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
doctrine being perpetrated on them. We therefore, I think, have a duty | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
to maintain our cohesion as an alliance. I would like to see more | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
NATO exercises in places like Eastern Europe and in the Black Sea. | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
And I would like to see a permanent NATO strength on the ground in the | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
Baltic states. He won't back down, if he does he loses his power base | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
at home which is built on the Russian bear bowing to nobody? That | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
is failing to understand our on doctrine of deterrents which is to | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
say we are having a show of strength here, which is to stop you taking | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
actions we find unacceptable. The trouble is, because of our own lack | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
of understanding and our own unwillingness to apply the concept | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
of deterrents, we have seen what happened in Estonia, Georgia and | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
what happened in the Ukraine. It is time for us to actually show some | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
far greater moral strength than we have shown in the west for some | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
time. Weak leadership from David Cameron and other western leaders. | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
Do you think that applies also to the situation in Gaza at the moment? | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
I think the situation in Ukraine is of far greater importance in terms | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
of our national security. And in the longer term safety of Europe and the | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
NATO alliance. I think in terms of what happens in Gaza the | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
Government's response has been reasonable. And sensible. I think | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
that one of the problems that we have in an rather where the debate | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
is very much media-driven is that we're looking at the symptoms of the | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
conflict rather than the causes. I have a lot of trouble with this word | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
"proportionate", what is a proportionate response. It is | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
interesting you say that, you say reasonable but that is elements of | :27:42. | :27:43. | |
the Government, the Deputy Prime Minister is happy to use the word | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
"disproportionate? The Prime Minister, and the Foreign Secretary | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
are responsible for national security, what will happen in a | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
year's time is another matter. What is clear is we have an underlying | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
problem, the underlying problem is that Israel has a neighbour, Gaza, | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
where Hamas believes that Israel should not exist, and as long as | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
they continue with that belief it is very difficult to see how you can | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
get a political solution. We are receiving reports this evening of | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
American air strikes in northern Iraq, that presumablialies with your | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
desire for a show of strength in these trouble spots. Would you like | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
to see British aircraft and service personnel getting involved in that? | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
There is no case as long as the Americans are taking the lead, given | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
they have far greater military capability. If the United States is | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
involved and trying to deal with the physical capabilities of ISIS, that | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
is a good thing, because what is required is the ability to degrade | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
their military capability to the point that the Governments in the | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
region, particularly the Government of Iraq is able to deal with them, | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
themselves. Those reports are currently unconfirmed and the | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
Pentagon have issued a denial. You sound like man who wants to see more | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
war? No. What I want to see is the containment of those who are | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
slaughtering innocents, as you showed in your previous report, who | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
are using religious persecution as a tool of their political and military | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
doctrine. And we do have a responsibility as people who believe | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
in freedom and security and a rule of law to stand up for those who are | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
being very obviously % cuted in areas where we could make a | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
difference. Let me ask you about a battle that's all together less | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
bloody, a bat shall may unfold at the top of your party, the | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
Conservative Party party, do you think the fuss around Boris | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
Johnson's desire to return to Westminster speaks of a belief that | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
the next election is all right lost, he wants to be the leader of the | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
opposition and in place as early as possible? I doubt if you asked most | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
of my colleagues if their ambition was to be leader of the opposition, | :29:54. | :29:55. | |
no they want to be Prime Minister. It is a question of who succeeds | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
David Cameron as Prime Minister after the next election. It is an | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
interesting battle, but I tell you something it won't be fought out | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
amongst the journalist and the media, and the Conservative MPs. | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
Will you be standing? It is unlikely but I will be voting in it. Some | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
people think you are a May pole around which elements of the party | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
like to dance, an indication? We hear all the reports of Westminster, | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
if you take it over a period there is virtually no-one whose name is | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
not mentioned. Let's get re-elected first and discuss it afterwards. | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
Thank you very much. Do you remember John Major's cones hot-line, how | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
about "hug a hoodie", or Gordon Brown's Government of "all the | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
talents". They must have seemed like brilliant ideas in private, but the | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
public soon rendered them ridiculous and irrelevant, both. We don't have | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
much mention of David Cameron's Big Society these days, do we? We have | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
been finding out if that is because it has quietly joined the | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
embarrassing menagerie of political white elephants. | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
Remember Big Society? So it is time for something different, something | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
bold. Something that don't just pour money down the throat of wasteful | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
top-down Government schemes. The Big Society is that something different | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
and bold. These young people embody David Cameron's vision, though they | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
may not realise it. Can you put your hands up if you | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
have heard of Big Society? They are doing national citizens service, and | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
60,000 will go through the three-week course this year, costing | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
us, the taxpayer, ?1400 a child. It was the Government's big idea in | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
this the manifesto last time round. The Government wants to build a | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
future generation of volunteers. At the last election we were all | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
invited to join the Government of Britain. You don't hear about it | :32:01. | :32:09. | |
much any more. What happened? Big Society may have been dreamt up | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
around a metropolitan dinner table, but it did reach rural Cumbria, one | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
of the first areas to pilot David Cameron's Big Idea. | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
We have come to find out about Big Society. Right. Do you know about | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
it? I have heard of it. Do you think it is happening here? I think it may | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
be. This man is one of several local farmers who was persuaded to allow | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
fibre optic cables to pass through their fields for free so he and his | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
remote community could have high-speed broad band. It is classic | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
Big Society territory, with a local contractor on board BT's costs came | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
down thousands of pounds and it has taken four years and largely unpaid. | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
If you thought you would have to do it for four years one paid, would | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
you still have done it? It has been a long journey. If someone had asked | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
me eight months ago would you recommend it to another community, I | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
would have said absolutely not T has been really challenging, dark days. | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Now we are getting to the end of the project and we can see how much we | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
have done and how much we have achieved i would say, yeah, we can | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
smell the fibre now. This is worth it. It is something to celebrate and | :33:30. | :33:42. | |
30 or so miles away they can, they Butchers Arms, bought by locals | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
including the MP when it shut down. The volunteers behind the pub buyout | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
have also built 12 affordable homes in the village. As a Big Society | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
pilot area they had support from Whitehall to navigate through red | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
tape, procurement and other pitfalls. Are other communities | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
responding to Big Society in the same way. In fact, 15 neighbourhood | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
plans like this are in train to build 6,200 homes in Britain. 27 | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
community pubs have opened nationwide, not many when it is | :34:15. | :34:23. | |
estimated 26 shut every week. As for broadband there are five community | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
projects like Libby's going ahead in the UK. In the end communities are | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
sometimes stepping away. I guess it is maybe they don't feel it is their | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
business, they don't feel they have enough time or sometimes they maybe | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
just don't want it enough. Or maybe they think it is something the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Government should be doing for them. I also think Government could help | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
more by just putting these things up in lights and saying, in the end, if | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
Libby can get super-fast broadband for houses, there is no reason why | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
you can't. This is your Government's big idea, why are they not talking | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
about it now. If they are not putting it in lights who is going | :35:00. | :35:07. | |
to? It is a struggle. One of the problems might be that Big Society | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
was always a bit emorphous, one of those behind the pub takeover says | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
they would have done it any way. There is no doubt our community | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
irrespective of Big Society would have bought the pub. What does that | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
say about Big Society? Simply that we didn't need it to manage a | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
project of buying a pub. That is not to say that other groups don't need | :35:35. | :35:42. | |
that support. Liverpool was another area that pilots Big Society after | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
the election. Here it ended badly, the Government accused by the | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
Labour-run Council of Using Big Society to dress up austerity. It | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
pulled out saying it couldn't ask the voluntary sector to do more in | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
the era of cuts. The whole concept of trying to create a society that | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
is just based on volunteers, without any underpinning of that fabric and | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
infrastructure was always doom today failure in my view. I think that's | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
the reason why it has failed and why Liverpool didn't want to play any | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
part of it after we saw. It was like the Emperor's new clothes, somebody | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
needed to stand up and say he has no clothes on. The Government disagrees | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
with Liverpool's assessment, claiming everything from free | :36:35. | :36:36. | |
schools to changes to neighbourhood planning to a 44% increase in | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
library volunteering as big society, the last will have campaigners | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
against library closures spitting. Newsnight has gone through David | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Cameron's speeches. His buzzword used to get mentioned a lot, there | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
were 100 when it launched and now it is down to five where there is a | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
sustained campaign and his own party put the boot in. When he was still | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
talking about it, it was the Conservative's attempt to mend | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
broken Britain, the fact it hasn't happened is a tragedy says someone | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
of those behind the vision. I think it lost because of battles lost in | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party returned to its | :37:22. | :37:29. | |
standard, kind of 1980s Thatcherite narrative. It was not that the | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
people who opposed it were bad people. It is just they thought the | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
same old mechanisms would deliver the outcomes of prosperity and | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
shared wealth. But they haven't and they never will. You were part of | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
the manifesto last time round. The manifesto said an invitation to join | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
the Government of Britain. Do you think the Conservatives will be | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
going into the next election with that same idea? I think it is dead | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
politically. But do you know what, all the political parties are | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
fighting for majority. And they are not getting it. So why that is, is | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
because all the parties remain captured by their own methods or | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
means of delivery. Labour is still wedded to the state, as the answer | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
to everybody's problems. The Conservative Party is still wedded | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
to the old model of the market, as the answer to everybody's problems. | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
But all the best people in both parties that is not true. And they | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
are all looking for an alternative. The first rule is you respect | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
everybody's right to have a different opinion. | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Of course Philip Blonde says that alternative is Big Society, still | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
living and breathing here at national Sarns service. But will you | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
be hearing as much about Big Society in the run up to the next election | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
as you did last time. One insider told Newsnight if we don't talk | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
about it the only narrative left for this Government is cuts. | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
Here with me to discuss the legacy of and prospects for the Big Society | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
is the founder of the Magic Breakfast Charity, that gives free | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
breakfasts to poorer schoolchildren, and from Bristol the Conservative | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
MP, Jacob Rees-Mogg. So Big Society has turned into Mrs Racz Chester, | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
leave it in the at particular and hope nobody mentions it? I think the | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
Big Society is alive and kicking, you see it in rural communities like | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
my own seat in north Somerset, where a whole range of activities are | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
undertaken by the community. It is about David Cameron's statement that | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
there is such a thing as society and it is different from the state. That | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
can be put into practice without the state muddling about with it. It is | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
a glorious success in Somerset? It is a glorious success and working | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
brilliantly. This must be the first recorded time in political history | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
that a Prime Minister has done something wonderful and not told the | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
voters about it? The issue there is the success of the Big Society is | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
not because it is led by the Government, but it is led by society | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
itself. On Saturday we will have the flower show which, is long going on, | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
greats event in north-east Somerset, that is about volunteers working | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
hard throughout the year to make something happen for the whole | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
community. That's separate from the Government, that is the success of | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
the Big Society, is allowing these things to happen and flourish, | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
rather than assuming that big Government is the answer to all the | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
problems. So flower shows in north Somerset, it is all blooming | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
marvellous, you are one of the people that Jacob Rees-Mogg refers | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
to, you are leading big society, are you happy with how things are going? | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
From the Magic Breakfast's perfective, we are -- perspective, | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
we are giving food to those children who come to school hungry. We won an | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
award and were big supporters of the Big Society, we want it to lead to | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
more action. Nobody can argue with the fact that bringing more people | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
to do more good things in their communities, helping people to get | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
engaged in all sorts of project, great stuff, but what has happened | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
since then is I think we have been slightly overcome by austerity. What | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
I want is for Big Society to be used to tackle social inequality as well | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
as the beautiful flower displays as well as the running your local pub. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
We have a big challenge in this country, children arriving at school | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
too hungry to learn is not something that we can leave to just the | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
Government or just the state. We need a combination. And you don't | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
feel that really the state should be stepping in to the sort of | :41:31. | :41:32. | |
circumstances you describe, and people like you shouldn't have to? | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
It is a tragedy that in the sixth-richest economy in the world | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
we have kids arriving at school hungry and half of the teachers in | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
this country are bringing in food. Now I signed up to the Big Society | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
as a great theme, and I think there are some very good things and some | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
very bad things. On the good side, absolutely. It is a boost to it. | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
What does it actually mean, this notion that everybody should be | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
excellent to each other, it is like a Bill and Ted film, in real terms | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
what does it mean? I think it was a reminder that it is very possible to | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
get involved in community projects and make a difference. It always | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
was? It wasn't new, it was acknowledged at the time that this | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
was an emphasis on a part of British culture and society that has always | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
been there, the desire to help each other. This is great and decent | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
country with lots of people who do enormously good community project | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
work already, it wasn't new, but what I liked about it was it was | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
bringing in more social enterprise and more funding and lots of | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
initiatives. For us at Magic Breakfast, it didn't bring in | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
funding but more people are saying people are coming hungry, can we | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
volunteer and come to you. Jacob Rees-Mogg, flower shows not with | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
standing, what would you point to as conclusive evidence that people who | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
need help are getting it from Big Society? You have to to | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
differentiate what is properly the role of the state and what is the | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
role of volunteers. State is there to do what is essential and can't be | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
done by anybody else. Feeding hungry children? I would say that is | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
something the state should view as essential. So this charity is not | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
part of Big Society, but got an award for being so good of it? There | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
are parts that become Big Society, the state has a welfare system to | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
give people funds to buy food and volunteers can be there to help | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
children eat when they get to school in the morning and their parents may | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
have failed to do so because they are so disorganised. The state | :43:35. | :43:41. | |
doesn't provide money for that? The state provides a safety net to | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
provide money to feed children, and not every family is efficient in | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
doing that. With respect, I would say that you know there are an awful | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
lot of children that are going to food banks now. We know that half of | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
teachers in this country are bringing in food. It is not about | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
family disorganisation, it is about poverty. The majority of the | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
children we feed are in homes where their parents are working long hours | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
in low-paid jobs, where the rent has gone up, the fuel has gone up but | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
their wages have not. Now if we are going to get the Big Society to turn | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
into something really meaningful we have to tackle the structural things | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
like that right now. And yet you disagree, you feel the role of the | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
state and the role of the voluntary sector is easily distinguishable, | :44:27. | :44:35. | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg? It is easily distinguishable, there are always | :44:36. | :44:42. | |
fray areas. The -- grey areas. Big Society will provide, as in my own | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
constituency with a temporary road being built by an individual with | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
the support of a landowner. An individual who has invested ?150,000 | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
off the top of my head? You are right. That is not quite what we | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
understood Big Society to mean? He's not expecting to make a return but | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
his costs back. That is society coming together to do something that | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
the state cannot manage to do. Thank you for that. Flower shows and road | :45:08. | :45:16. | |
tolles. Let's have a look at the front pages, the sometimes leads | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
with "wars of religion": SNP I'm off back to my usual pond, | :45:20. | :45:54. | |
thank you for having me. We are ending with a shark cam. A quick | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
look at what the really big fish do when they see a camera. | :46:02. | :46:20. | |
? # Big mouth strikes again | :46:21. | :46:29. | |
# Take my place # Big mouth | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
# Strikes again # You have no right to take my place | :46:37. | :46:45. | |
# And now I know # I | :46:46. | :46:45. | |
We will change the script for the end of the week, we lose the | :46:46. | :46:56. | |
sunshine and replace it with heavy rain in the morning. Warnings have | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
been issued as they have been for Northern Ireland. If you start dry | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
you will be not surprised to see showers breaking out. Drying up in | :47:09. | :47:10. | |
the afternoon but with showers. Western Scotland wet through the | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
afternoon, but in eastern Scotland one or two showers dotted around but | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
many place also enjoy a dry afternoon. Into the south and east | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
of Scotland, heavy showers around through the afternoon as they will | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
be in northern England, Thundering, lightning and rain in a | :47:27. | :47:27. |