06/08/2014 Newsnight


06/08/2014

Will the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas be extended? Boris Johnson's ambition to stand as a MP; Isis; an interview with Wikipedia's founder; and loom bands.


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Tonight confusion about whether the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas

:00:00.:00:10.

will be extended. Peace talks are under way in Cairo. While in Gaza

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the true cost of the four-week conflict can now be counted. We

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report from the rubble. This neighbourhood and the

:00:24.:00:29.

destruction here is immense. He was certainly creative when

:00:30.:00:33.

dodging the issue. It might be that I wanted to have a career in writing

:00:34.:00:39.

romantic fiction, for instance! No matter how many times he was asked.

:00:40.:00:49.

This is a now super mass at thiscated subject. Masticate a bit

:00:50.:00:56.

more, spit it out, spit it out. Today, finally he spat it out. I

:00:57.:01:01.

will try to find somewhere to stand in 2015. Thank goodness for that.

:01:02.:01:08.

Censoring history, Wikipedia's founder talks about his fears for

:01:09.:01:16.

the Internet after the EU's rite right to be forgotten. Do you like

:01:17.:01:21.

my loom bands, this has earned millions in the last few years, we

:01:22.:01:25.

thought it was time to make a film about them. The ceasefire in Gaza

:01:26.:01:38.

has moved into the second day. By halt in the bombardment will be

:01:39.:01:44.

greeted with relief from both sides. There seems little hope of the peace

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talks producing a definitive conclusion to hostilities. We have

:01:50.:01:52.

been in Gaza assessing both the scale of the destruction so far and

:01:53.:01:56.

the effect on the lives and loyalties of the people there. The

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ice-cream shop in Gaza City has re-opened. A cup or cone costs two

:02:07.:02:14.

shekels, that is 35p. The wait is worth it. It is a small reward for

:02:15.:02:21.

surviving four weeks of air strikes and explosions. It is good to see

:02:22.:02:26.

the stopping of the bombardment. It is good to see everybody go to the

:02:27.:02:33.

market, go to his work, go to his job. It is very bad to see a lot of

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men in hospital without hands, without their legs. This

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four-year-old in the red shirt wants to make sure his order is not

:02:48.:02:56.

forgotten. He holds his ground and gets his ice-cream. It is the

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family's first outing since the truce. Mousa has had leukaemia, he

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still gets treatments in a hospital in Israel. His parents find

:03:11.:03:15.

themselves depending upon the same country that bombs their land.

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TRANSLATION: The Israeli doctors are professional and humane. They even

:03:23.:03:27.

call us during this war to ask how our son was. But the Israeli army is

:03:28.:03:33.

different. What they have done to our children is barbaric. How do you

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even begin to clean up here in Gaza? The neighbourhood was torn up by

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Israel's offensive. I want to give you a sense of where we are and of

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what's happened here. Israel itself is in that direction, where the

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fields are, and for almost a month the Israeli air force and then the

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Israeli army carried out strikes across the border here into Gaza.

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And this is the Shajia neighbourhood and the destruction here is immense.

:04:14.:04:20.

Wherever you look buildings have been either hit or they have got

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bullet holes in them, windows have been blown out, and there is rubble

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all around me. Israel's army says it went against this neighbourhood

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because it believed that Palestinian militants were digging tunnels from

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here to go across the border Israel and the militant groups led by Hamas

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were also carrying out rocket strikes from here. Of course the

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militants were hit, but when you stand here you realise that many,

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many civilians would have been hit as well. This was their home. This

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woman shows us around the remains of her house. She has eight children.

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She has to find them a new home. Israel says that she and her

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neighbours should blame Hamas for the war. But they don't.

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TRANSLATION: God be with them, they are stronger now. I hope that God

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will help the resistance to win and declare victory. The armed men of

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Gaza see themselves as winners. This afternoon gunmen from Islamic Jihad

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buried one of their commanders. No-one here is pressing the militant

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groups to give way. For the first time in almost a month people here

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are able to take some steps back towards a normal life. Here they are

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getting money to buy things for their families. But they want so

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much more than that. They want the ability to come and go from Gaza,

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the ability to get things in from the outside world. They want Israel

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to end its restrictions. And that is the same demand that Hamas itself is

:06:10.:06:15.

making of the Israeli Government in indirect negotiations. In the

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harbour fishermen are slowly getting back to work. TRANSLATION: There are

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a lot of fish here now, because fishing was banned for a long time.

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It was very dangerous for fishermen. So we hope that the calm will

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continue. For now fishermen and swimmers enjoy the quiet. But recent

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history of Gaza teaches a simple lesson, calm is eventually followed

:06:54.:07:01.

by another war. Back Back in Britain the political

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reverbations continue. Yesterday Jose Manuel Barroso resigned over

:07:07.:07:11.

what she -- Baroness Warsi resigned over what she called the politically

:07:12.:07:17.

indefensible policy of the Government towards the conflict.

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Today the former International Development Secretary, Andrew

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Mitchell has called for an arms embargo on Israel. The Liberal

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Democrats have also been outspoken in their desire to see an arms

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boycott. I'm joined now by our diplomatic editor.

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Is there now a sense of gathering political momentum behind these

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calls for an arms embargo? There is, undoubtedly. But still the Prime

:07:44.:07:47.

Minister has not made his decision. Today there was a bit of a flurry in

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Westminster because it was believed that Philip Hammond, the Foreign

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Secretary was about to make a statement, and it was widely

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believed it was to announce an embargo, but it didn't happen. I'm

:08:00.:08:03.

told Downing Street is still holding this on a tight rein, we haven't

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moved forward from their position stated last night that the whole

:08:09.:08:11.

matter is under review. That is keeping their options open. It could

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be that tomorrow they do take that step and announce it. What about

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outside the realms of military supply, are there any signs of

:08:21.:08:24.

businesses disinvesting or curtailing activity in or with

:08:25.:08:27.

Israel? You can grade this by different types of business. On the

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military front, yes. There has already been controversy about G 4 S

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and security contracts in the West Bank, the company saying it has to

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step back from those in three years time when they are gone. There is a

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boycott and disinvest movement that has been highlighting products

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produced in the Occupied Territories. We have also been

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hearing about other things today, interestingly a entity called ABP, a

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Dutch public sector pension fund, it has been engaged in conversations by

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activists about stopping its connections with three Israeli

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banks. It is the third-biggest pension fund in the world. Things

:09:06.:09:08.

like this may well be happening and it may well be grassroots pressure.

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It is things to look out for over the next few months at annual

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general meetings and shareholders meetings, at pension fundholders

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meetings, those types of things where we might see a change in

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underlying public attitudes influencing the pattern of

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investment and trade. Thank you. The row over Gaza goes beyond trade and

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politics, spilling tonight into the arts as well. For the past eight

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years the Tricycle Theatre in London has played host to the UK Jewish

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Film Festival, partially funded by the Israeli Embassy. Now the theatre

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has said that due to the sensitivity of the conflict the theatre's board

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had taken the decision not to host the festival under its current

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sponsorship arrangement. They are not saying no to the festival or

:09:55.:09:58.

Jewish films, they are just saying no to Israeli Government funding.

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But the move has brought a wave of criticism. The lawyer with me is a

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board member of the Tricycle, and we have the chief executive of Jewish

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leadership council. If I may begin with you, the conflict has been

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going on for years on and off and the festival itself has been running

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at the Tricycle for eight years. What is different today and this

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year? It is not this year, it was the moment at which it came to deal

:10:28.:10:32.

with the publicity which arose in the midst of this current conflict.

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The Tricycle is deeply proud of the association with the Film Festival.

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We hope the UK Jewish Film Festival will be held this year at the

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Tricycle Theatre in Kilburn. Why did this happen. I don't know if you

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have been to the theatre, it is in Kilburn, a mixed community. We have

:10:51.:10:55.

all views, and the situation had arisen last year that already there

:10:56.:10:58.

were protests. We were willing and happy to tough it out. We want the

:10:59.:11:02.

festival to continue at the theatre, but this year we took the view that

:11:03.:11:08.

right now putting a logo, for example, of the Israeli Embassy in

:11:09.:11:12.

London on the festival material would be taken by some people as an

:11:13.:11:18.

incitement and provocation. We asked that the issue of Israeli Government

:11:19.:11:23.

funding be reviewed. We have offered ourselves to make up the shortfall

:11:24.:11:27.

as a sign of our commitment to have the festival and the view was taken

:11:28.:11:31.

by the Jewish Film Festival they did not wish to do that. They have

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adopted a position of principle, you accept that the Jewish Film Festival

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is supported by the Israeli Government or we don't come. Me.

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That was the situation we found ourselves in. Simon is that a

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position of principle to you? The Jewish Film Festival is a bonderful

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sell -- wonderful celebration of Jewish culture. It is a major

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bridge-builder towards positive interfaith relations within London.

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No-one is trying to stop the festival? By the Tricycle Theatre

:12:03.:12:07.

giving the Jewish Film Festival a "ditch the embassy" ultimatum is

:12:08.:12:12.

putting itself in the way of deciding what is or isn't Jewish

:12:13.:12:16.

culture, unless they are going to take exactly the same approach to

:12:17.:12:21.

any Government that funds any particular film or event that is put

:12:22.:12:25.

on at the Tricycle theatre, I am afraid this looks to most people in

:12:26.:12:32.

our community as though it is a discriminatory boycott. Can you

:12:33.:12:35.

crith another Government-fund -- scythe another Government-funded

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project? What the Tricycle Theatre has done here is try to look at

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Jewish culture through the prism of its opinion of Israeli Government

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policy. It is as though if you are holding an Islamic Film Festival you

:12:51.:12:55.

would look at it through the prise. M of perhaps the Syrian Government.

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Only if the Syrian Government was funding the festival? They have

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effectively given an ultimatum and said if you will ditch the embassy

:13:03.:13:07.

then you can continue, but the indelible link between Jewish

:13:08.:13:10.

culture and the nature of Israel is the point of principle. It is not

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for others to decide what is Jewish culture. So you can't criticise

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Israel without maligning Jewish culture? But what I want to know. Is

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that what you are saying? Of course you can criticise Israel. I'm

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wondering what they are trying to achieve? I think what is happening

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is they are trying to adopt their opinion of the position of a foreign

:13:34.:13:38.

Government on a foreign conflict and trying to interpose it into

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multifaith, multicultural Britain. The only people who suffer through

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this, because this is the Jewish Film Festival, it is not some

:13:47.:13:49.

propaganda arm of the Israeli Government. There are films that

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hugely critical of Israel that show all sides of the argument, that by

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boycotting in this way, or threatening to boycott in this way,

:13:58.:14:01.

what they are doing is they are interposing their view of the

:14:02.:14:05.

conflict and trying to impose that on the project. I think the Tricycle

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gets ?725,000 off the Arts Council, the British Government, which arms

:14:13.:14:16.

still Israel, why don't you ban any involvement of productions at the

:14:17.:14:20.

Tricycle that are paid for by the British Government? Let me answer

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that in a moment, first let me say this, Simon I think is a lawyer,

:14:25.:14:29.

facts are important. He has made allegations that don't exist. What

:14:30.:14:34.

is the Tricycle doing. It has simply said whilst this conflict is in the

:14:35.:14:37.

current situation and we have made very clear to the Jewish Film

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Festival the situation may be different in three weeks or five

:14:41.:14:45.

weeks or eight weeks, it is not a never deal with this Israeli Embassy

:14:46.:14:49.

issue. We will revisit the situation. What have we actually

:14:50.:14:53.

done? We have said on the Tricycle board we won't take funding from any

:14:54.:14:58.

party involved in the conflict. If there was funding from the

:14:59.:15:00.

Palestinian Authority or Hamas we would, hang on, we would also not

:15:01.:15:05.

accept our association with that. But more to the point, we have drawn

:15:06.:15:11.

a distinction between associating with the political arms of the

:15:12.:15:15.

state, the diplomatic representation, embassies on the one

:15:16.:15:20.

hand, and film funding. We have said the films you want to play it is up

:15:21.:15:24.

to you, if something is funded by the Israeli film fund that is a

:15:25.:15:28.

different thing an artistic thing. What the Jewish Film Festival is

:15:29.:15:32.

trying to do is associate, and just confirmed by Simon, with the

:15:33.:15:35.

political arm of Israel. Jewish is one thing, Israel is another, and

:15:36.:15:39.

they have mixed it, that is unfortunate, but not discriminatory,

:15:40.:15:44.

and almost certainly not a boycott. There is a Jewish gentleman on the

:15:45.:15:49.

board of the Tricycle and the artistic of the National Theatre who

:15:50.:15:53.

is Jewish and come out in support of the Tricycle's decision, it is not

:15:54.:15:57.

as simple as saying this is an take on Jewish culture when Jewish people

:15:58.:16:00.

are involved in the decision to reject the funding? It is not clear

:16:01.:16:04.

to me what they are trying to achieve by doing this? I will tell

:16:05.:16:08.

you, Artistic Director has stated that no money from any Government

:16:09.:16:11.

agency involved in the current conflict will be used to stage

:16:12.:16:15.

productions at this theatre and the cinema? If that is applied to all

:16:16.:16:19.

funding from all Governments of any type. She's categorical it is, in

:16:20.:16:23.

the current conflict? That is fine, all funding at any time from any

:16:24.:16:27.

Government, if that is what they are prepared to do it is not

:16:28.:16:33.

discriminatory. But it isn't. If they believe it will have any impact

:16:34.:16:36.

on the ability to achieve a just, lasting and permanent agreement

:16:37.:16:38.

between Israel and the Palestinians, which people in the Jewish community

:16:39.:16:43.

fervently want to achieve. Accept the ones in favour of the Tricycle's

:16:44.:16:47.

decision? Then highlighting and trying to put conditions upon the

:16:48.:16:52.

way that Jewish culture is expressed is not the way. Thank you very much.

:16:53.:16:58.

He said he wouldn't do it, he said he didn't want do t but he's done

:16:59.:17:05.

it. Boris Johnson today set his sights on a speedy return to

:17:06.:17:08.

Westminster, and so unleashed the flurry of furious speculation that

:17:09.:17:12.

routinely accompanies his every move. What does this most mercurial

:17:13.:17:20.

of politician's search for a safe seat mean for David Cameron's

:17:21.:17:23.

leadership and even Britain's relationship with the European Union

:17:24.:17:27.

which, is afterall what today's big speech was supposed to be all about.

:17:28.:17:37.

We have been finding out. The thing I love is being Mayor of

:17:38.:17:41.

London, it is the most wonderful job anyone can have, I'm getting on with

:17:42.:17:46.

that. Boris Johnson has always denied having grander ambitions.

:17:47.:17:51.

Would you like to be Prime Minister? Well I would like to be the lead

:17:52.:17:58.

singer of an international rock group. You want to be Prime

:17:59.:18:05.

Minister? What I want is to spend the next, my time remaining as mayor

:18:06.:18:10.

to do as well as I can as Mayor of London. But the Mayor of London has

:18:11.:18:14.

announced today that he wants to be an MP again after next year's

:18:15.:18:18.

general election. And in doing so he has kicked off the next Conservative

:18:19.:18:23.

Party leadership contest. Now you might be thinking why are we talking

:18:24.:18:28.

about leadership elections afterall David Cameron's personal ratings are

:18:29.:18:30.

better than those of Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, and the Tories

:18:31.:18:34.

are only a few points off Labour, which, all things considered, at

:18:35.:18:38.

this point in the cycle not that bad. Well, that's because people

:18:39.:18:42.

anticipate that there might soon be a vacancy. David Cameron may not be

:18:43.:18:47.

Prime Minister in a year's time, he may, he may not. If he isn't and Ed

:18:48.:18:52.

Miliband is in Downing Street instead, there will be a Tory

:18:53.:18:56.

leadership election and we know from today if that's so Boris Johnson is

:18:57.:18:59.

likely to be in the Commons and will be a contender. Johnson already has

:19:00.:19:09.

a clang of supportive MPs, they say that unlike the Prime Minister's a

:19:10.:19:13.

proven winner. He's worth 5% in the polls one of his backers told me

:19:14.:19:17.

today. Boris Johnson is Britain's most popular politician, all the

:19:18.:19:21.

polling we find he outstrips and outrates all the other politicians

:19:22.:19:25.

far above David Cameron a Nigel Farage and all the rest. In fact his

:19:26.:19:30.

popularity Railtrackings are in line with those of Prince Charles and we

:19:31.:19:34.

know that the Royal Family is untouchable when it comes to the

:19:35.:19:37.

public's opinion of them. But it won't be an easy stroll to higher

:19:38.:19:44.

office. Johnson is a man with skeletons that have already escaped

:19:45.:19:48.

the closet. Making up quotes, lying to your party leader, wanting to

:19:49.:19:53.

part of someone being physically important, you are a nasty piece of

:19:54.:19:57.

work aren't you? I think all three things I would dispute. Johnson's

:19:58.:20:01.

current popularity may have something to do with the fact that

:20:02.:20:05.

few people actually know his views. His mixed record in London is very

:20:06.:20:09.

little scrutinised. Can a man who once had to apologise to the City of

:20:10.:20:13.

Liverpool cut it as a national politician? I'm apologising

:20:14.:20:18.

obviously for all the offence I have caused and any hurt that people feel

:20:19.:20:23.

as a result of the article. I must apologise for that because I think

:20:24.:20:27.

people do feel very, very strongly about that. Can he relate to

:20:28.:20:32.

ordinary voters? Which helps every household. Do you even know the cost

:20:33.:20:38.

of a pint of milk? About 80p or something like that. No it is about

:20:39.:20:46.

40-something pence. One of the biggish ones. This is classic Boris,

:20:47.:20:51.

I said a pint of milk. OK, OK, well there you go. Can you convince you

:20:52.:20:57.

that he's the man that you want facing Vladimir Putin? Although

:20:58.:21:00.

Britain is a country that likes to laugh at itself, it is not a joke

:21:01.:21:05.

country, therefore it doesn't want a joke Prime Minister. When you are

:21:06.:21:08.

involved in serious negotiations, there is a certain gravity that

:21:09.:21:12.

comes with the position. The real vulnerability for Boris Johnson is

:21:13.:21:15.

he can't cope with that. He's not up to it. And the joke wears really

:21:16.:21:21.

very thin. So, yes, the Mayor of London has a uniquely popular

:21:22.:21:26.

political brand, one that slightly annoys other senior Tories. But it

:21:27.:21:31.

is not yet clear that he's got what it takes. And here with me now are

:21:32.:21:39.

the Times columnists and Polly Toynebee from the Guardian. I think

:21:40.:21:46.

it was Cole Porter who wrote "all the world loves a clown" will they

:21:47.:21:50.

still love Boris if he gets serious? That is the big question, he's not

:21:51.:21:54.

standing for leadership of the Conservative Party, that is the

:21:55.:21:57.

future. What David Cameron has is an uphill struggle to win the next

:21:58.:22:01.

general election, and he wants the most popular politician in Britain

:22:02.:22:05.

beside him on the campaign trail. The next election is poply described

:22:06.:22:10.

as -- popularly described as a battle between David Cameron and Ed

:22:11.:22:14.

Miliband. But the Conservatives have a wider ambition, they don't want it

:22:15.:22:18.

the two men against each other, they want it as a choice, you have

:22:19.:22:23.

Osbourne, Hague, May and Boris, you have a strong Conservative team

:22:24.:22:28.

against Ed Miliband, the discredited Ed Balls, and who else? In tough

:22:29.:22:31.

times the Tories want to say we have the team to lead Britain, and Boris

:22:32.:22:35.

helps that. What position does he play? Sort of role that you remember

:22:36.:22:41.

in 2005 when Gordon Brown and Tony Blair went on a campaign together

:22:42.:22:46.

and had that famous ice-cream photo opportunity. He's still the jester

:22:47.:22:51.

in the court of Cameron? Youth Not a jest e but someone alongside David

:22:52.:22:57.

Cameron who shows that someone who has run one of the biggest cities in

:22:58.:23:01.

the world is alongside David Cameron making the pitch for re-election.

:23:02.:23:08.

Are you convinced by the Boris bonhomie? Not at all, I would have

:23:09.:23:11.

thought behind the scenes that the Conservatives would have been very

:23:12.:23:15.

angry indeed, the fact that Boris is pretty much announcing to the world

:23:16.:23:18.

that he doesn't think David Cameron will win the next election. He's not

:23:19.:23:21.

a team player and never has been. He's a team of one. His entire

:23:22.:23:26.

endeavour is about promoting Boris. There isn't anything else to his

:23:27.:23:31.

agenda. To step forward now he could easily wait until after his mayoral

:23:32.:23:36.

term is over, get himself a seat then. It is because he thinks

:23:37.:23:42.

Cameron won't win, why now? David Cameron has invited him back, he has

:23:43.:23:47.

made it clear repeatedly behind the scenes and in front of the cameras

:23:48.:23:51.

that he wants Boris back. It is a nice spin. It was a nice tweet from

:23:52.:23:59.

Portugal, but the grinding and gnashing of teeth. Conservative

:24:00.:24:03.

candidates in marginal seats will think it is very unhelpful indeed

:24:04.:24:06.

for Boris to step forward and thinking about what will happen when

:24:07.:24:10.

the Conservatives lose the next election. I bet they want Boris to

:24:11.:24:14.

visit their constituency because he's a vote winner. I'm sure they

:24:15.:24:18.

will. Could David Cameron have said anything other than welcoming him

:24:19.:24:22.

back into the fold, he couldn't have stated a desire not to see him back

:24:23.:24:26.

on the Conservative benches in the Commons could he? That is what he

:24:27.:24:32.

had to today, but previously in a very important interview he has

:24:33.:24:37.

said. At no point could he have said he doesn't want him in the

:24:38.:24:41.

parliamentary party could he? Of course if you asked him and he said

:24:42.:24:45.

that, but he volunteered it and proactively said he wants Boris

:24:46.:24:48.

back. Where Polly is right, the Tories have an uphill struggle at

:24:49.:24:52.

the next general election. We have to find one million more votes from

:24:53.:24:56.

somewhere. Here is someone who won in a Labour-voting city, twice, once

:24:57.:25:00.

in the middle of a very difficult austerity period. Not to have this

:25:01.:25:05.

guy helping you win the next election, an incredibly important

:25:06.:25:08.

election, that would be David Cameron's failure. It will be

:25:09.:25:10.

difficult if Boris is there after the next election and David Cameron

:25:11.:25:16.

is elected. Suddenly there is an alternative to Cameron in the

:25:17.:25:19.

Commons. Before then he is an asset. Has he got his eyes on the big prize

:25:20.:25:23.

of leadership? Absolutely, Boris wants to be Tory leader. He has

:25:24.:25:27.

denied it many times and you reminded us he would not seek a

:25:28.:25:31.

return to the House of Commons? He lives by different rules to most

:25:32.:25:35.

people. How does he get away with that? I think we knew when you asked

:25:36.:25:41.

him and others asked him that he would run for office in the future

:25:42.:25:47.

we knew he would want to do it. Does it matter very much, Ed Miliband is

:25:48.:25:53.

MP for Doncaster and leader of the opposition. You can do two jobs and

:25:54.:25:58.

Boris can do two jobs. Because Boris keeps lying, he keeps saying he's

:25:59.:26:01.

not doing something and then he does it. For the time being he is such a

:26:02.:26:06.

buffoon it is acceptable. People laugh, it is Boris, we have seen all

:26:07.:26:09.

the funny pictures of him. When it comes to a serious position. Mayor

:26:10.:26:15.

of London is a pretty serious position? It doesn't have a lot of

:26:16.:26:19.

power. Transport yet. He has brought CrossRail one of the biggest

:26:20.:26:22.

investments in Europe, working with the Chancellor. That is a pretty

:26:23.:26:26.

significant achievement. The Conservative Chancellor was always

:26:27.:26:29.

going to give it to a Conservative mayor, fair enough. Boris has only

:26:30.:26:33.

ever wanted one thing and that is to promote himself. I can't think of

:26:34.:26:36.

anything where Boris has passionately committed himself to

:26:37.:26:41.

something he really cares about that isn't about a Boris's bus, Boris's

:26:42.:26:47.

bike, Boris's zip wire, whatever it is, if it is some sort of gimmicky

:26:48.:26:52.

Boris thing. Where is his passionate conviction about house anything

:26:53.:26:55.

London. Very little done. The things that really matter that London

:26:56.:27:01.

really needs. Polly Toynebee we can continue this conversation until the

:27:02.:27:06.

election, I suspect. Many thanks to both of you. Events in Gaza have, of

:27:07.:27:11.

course, largely overshadowed conflicts elsewhere in the Middle

:27:12.:27:13.

East this month. But today in Iraq more than 30 people were killed in a

:27:14.:27:18.

series of car bombs in districts of Baghdad. Meanwhile outside the Iraqi

:27:19.:27:24.

capital ISIS has been consolidating its control of northern parts of the

:27:25.:27:30.

country since their capture of Mosul in June. We can reveal the first

:27:31.:27:35.

evidence that British Jihadists that had previously joined ISIS in Syria

:27:36.:27:41.

have also been fighting in Iraq. We're joined now. What more can you

:27:42.:27:46.

tell us? There has been a lot of focus placed on the issue of British

:27:47.:27:50.

Muslims travelling to Syria to joined the conflict there. We know

:27:51.:27:54.

some have joined this group ISIS. We know in the recent months ISIS have

:27:55.:28:00.

been expanding in their base in northern Syria across the border

:28:01.:28:05.

into northern Iraq. Concerns have been expressed that British Muslims

:28:06.:28:09.

would be fighting with ISIS in Syria but also in Iraq. We have seen no

:28:10.:28:13.

evidence of this taking place until now. I however have been speaking to

:28:14.:28:20.

a man called Abu Abdullah, he is a 20-year-old British Eritrean man

:28:21.:28:26.

part of ISIS, a convert to Islam. Now he says that he at the moment is

:28:27.:28:35.

in Raqqab, he has returned from fighting in Ramadi across the border

:28:36.:28:41.

in Iraq. He has posted photos on his social media site. This is one of

:28:42.:28:45.

them. This is purportedly him in front of a tank in Ramadi, this is

:28:46.:28:51.

another image of him posing with a gun in Ramadi. We can't be 100% sure

:28:52.:28:56.

they are from Ramadi, but his account of being in Iraq has been

:28:57.:29:00.

coroborated by other British foreign fighters in ISIS. And we know that

:29:01.:29:06.

this man Abu Abdullah is part of ISIS, he featured in one of his plop

:29:07.:29:12.

Ganda -- propaganda videos featured this weekend. I'm from the UK, I'm

:29:13.:29:17.

Abdullah, there is nothing better than living in the land, the rights

:29:18.:29:24.

and the, you know you are not living under oppression, we don't need any

:29:25.:29:28.

democracy, we don't need any communism, we don't need anything

:29:29.:29:34.

like that, all we need is Syria. Some insight there into his thinking

:29:35.:29:38.

what do we know about his actions, what has this character been up to?

:29:39.:29:44.

I have been speaking to him via an instant messaging service. He went

:29:45.:29:48.

to Syria nine months ago but he moved on to Iraq to be at the

:29:49.:29:51.

forefront of the fighting. I asked him to describe the situation in

:29:52.:29:55.

Ramadi whilst he was there. He said it is the best fighting and the

:29:56.:29:59.

hardest fighting. You are in a city made of concrete and everything is

:30:00.:30:04.

blowing up. But Iraq is also the place associated with some of the

:30:05.:30:08.

most shocking images released by ISIS. For example the execution en

:30:09.:30:14.

masse of a group of Iraqi Shia army soldiers. I asked him how he could

:30:15.:30:20.

justify these types of actions even if he isn't involved in themselves.

:30:21.:30:29.

He said ISIS treats his enemies the way they would treat them. I asked

:30:30.:30:33.

why fight in Syria and Iraq surely they are different conflicts. He

:30:34.:30:39.

said in his opinion Shia are Shia, it doesn't matter what sect it is,

:30:40.:30:44.

if people knew their belief it disgusts me to be honest. To show

:30:45.:30:48.

you how hardcore, I will show you a shocking image, it is very

:30:49.:30:52.

distressing. This is from his social media account. It is back in Syria,

:30:53.:30:58.

he's posing in front of a decapitated body of an army member

:30:59.:31:04.

from the Syrian President Assad. I asked how and why thought it was

:31:05.:31:08.

acceptable behaviour. He said to me the people love to see the heads of

:31:09.:31:16.

Nusayris on spike, and I feel no sympathy for them because they are

:31:17.:31:20.

enemies of Allah. Indeed, what more do we know about him and his

:31:21.:31:24.

background? He told me his family are Christian but he converted

:31:25.:31:28.

around the age of 16. He told me his family do know where he is. That

:31:29.:31:31.

they have been in contact with him. He said that this is what they say

:31:32.:31:37.

to him, that like any parents they say to him come back, you are crazy.

:31:38.:31:42.

He says he's here for the sake of Allah and nothing else, there is no

:31:43.:31:47.

going back. He went on to say that he's happy there and that why would

:31:48.:31:52.

he go back to somewhere, to the UK and make himself unhappy and in

:31:53.:31:57.

Barz, in prison for example. He clearly doesn't want to come back to

:31:58.:32:01.

the UK. But this case will raise concern about the spread of British

:32:02.:32:04.

fighters from Syria to other parts of the region. Thank you. Where he

:32:05.:32:09.

hear tonight of a fresh crisis on the ground in northern Iraq. Human

:32:10.:32:13.

rights groups have reported that 40,000 people are trapped on a

:32:14.:32:19.

mountain without water or aid. Some 25,000 of them children. They face a

:32:20.:32:24.

stark choice, if they descend they risk being massacred by the Jihadi

:32:25.:32:30.

group Islamic State, known as ISIS, but if they stay it could mean death

:32:31.:32:36.

by dehydration, aid agencies are warning it could be a humanitarian

:32:37.:32:43.

disaster on a grand scale. We have our guest from amnesty international

:32:44.:32:49.

talking to us from Iraq. How much do we know about how this situation has

:32:50.:32:53.

arisen, how it has happened? Well it has happened because those who fled

:32:54.:33:01.

on Sunday when ISIS militants took over the town and areas around it,

:33:02.:33:05.

some of them did not manage to flee on time, so they could only get to

:33:06.:33:11.

the mountain. The road accessing the mountains were then blocked by ISIS,

:33:12.:33:16.

so since then it has not been possible for them to leave. It has

:33:17.:33:21.

not been possible to get any humanitarian aid to them by road. So

:33:22.:33:26.

only in the last couple of days there has been a little bit of

:33:27.:33:31.

humanitarian aid getting to them via air drops. But really most of the

:33:32.:33:35.

people that I have been speaking to of those who are trapped on the

:33:36.:33:40.

mountain and I have been speaking to many of them have not received any

:33:41.:33:44.

aid. How much do we know about the specific conditions that they are

:33:45.:33:50.

currently enduring? The conditions are absolutely horrific. Today I was

:33:51.:33:56.

speaking to a man who has lost two young daughters. One was killed on

:33:57.:34:01.

the spot as they were fleeing, the other one had an injury which could

:34:02.:34:05.

have probably been easily treated if she had been able to get to some

:34:06.:34:11.

sort of medical facility. Obviously that's impossible where they are

:34:12.:34:14.

trapped in the mountain so the little girl has died. We are hearing

:34:15.:34:20.

other horrendous stories, the lack of food is bad enough, but it is

:34:21.:34:24.

bearable for a few days, the lack of water when it is more than 40

:34:25.:34:29.

degrees, it is not. And especially for the very little, for the

:34:30.:34:34.

elderly, for people who are sick and there are many out of the tens of

:34:35.:34:39.

thousands of those who are trapped on the mountain. Many thanks indeed.

:34:40.:34:47.

Students, pub quiz masters and quite frankly most journalists would be

:34:48.:34:51.

lost without it. But the Wikipedia project is almost infinate in its

:34:52.:34:55.

cope and ambition. Now in its 13th year the on-line encyclopaedia

:34:56.:35:00.

written by unpaid contributors and invites you to imagine a world where

:35:01.:35:04.

every single human being can share freely in the sum of all knowledge,

:35:05.:35:08.

currently registers over 21 billion hits a month. Its founder joins us

:35:09.:35:13.

shortly. But first we have this report from the annual Wiki-mania

:35:14.:35:18.

event in London for the first time this week.

:35:19.:35:24.

Wiki-mania is the annual gathering of the Wikipedia community. This

:35:25.:35:28.

year for the tenth bash they have come for the first time to London,

:35:29.:35:33.

or at least the sub-tropical-like jungle bit of London inside the

:35:34.:35:36.

Barbican centre. It wouldn't really be in the spirit of the

:35:37.:35:40.

collaborative nature of Wikipedia for this report to be the product of

:35:41.:35:43.

a single voice. We need to throw it open to the Wiki community. Where

:35:44.:35:49.

shall we start? We could first find out what the point of this event is?

:35:50.:35:55.

Wikipedia is an enormous project, there is something like 100,000

:35:56.:36:01.

regular contributors and 20 million since it started. And this is a

:36:02.:36:07.

chance for them to come together and talk face-to-face and talk about the

:36:08.:36:12.

global strategy and the future. This was an opportunity to announce a

:36:13.:36:16.

response to the "right to be forgotten", this refers to a

:36:17.:36:20.

European Court of Justice that Google and other search engines must

:36:21.:36:26.

delete articles about individuals that are out of date, irrelevant and

:36:27.:36:31.

no longer relevant. The ruling in itself is unworkable. The Internet

:36:32.:36:35.

is vast, information that stays on it stays on for a very long time. We

:36:36.:36:39.

don't believe the promise taking down one link makes it hard to find,

:36:40.:36:44.

just because it is harder to find a person's information, doesn't mean

:36:45.:36:46.

the information is missing. Wikipedia will publish a list of

:36:47.:36:50.

every entry on the site that search engines no longer link to as a

:36:51.:36:55.

result of compliance with the ECJ ruling. It is not like Wikipedia

:36:56.:36:59.

isn't used to some big rows over content. Real world battles rapidly

:37:00.:37:07.

turn into Wiki battles. The on going conflict between Israel and

:37:08.:37:10.

Palestine has become one of the many contests to own history. It is

:37:11.:37:15.

interesting to see how for example the recent Gaza conflict, even more

:37:16.:37:23.

who doesn't speak English, Hebrew or haric about, you can see the --

:37:24.:37:28.

Arabic, you can see how the illustrations over those three

:37:29.:37:31.

languages can tell the same story with different perspective. They

:37:32.:37:36.

could be seen as bias, but it is equally an attempt by the world to

:37:37.:37:40.

tell their story and interact with each other. Wikipedia is now such an

:37:41.:37:44.

established and important source that it is on the frontline of many

:37:45.:37:49.

propaganda struggles. For example many edits of the article about the

:37:50.:37:52.

crash of the Malaysian airliner MH17, were traced to Russian

:37:53.:37:57.

Government computers. So does this render the site on reliable?

:37:58.:38:02.

Wikipedia is a series of eventualism, eventually the truth

:38:03.:38:06.

will out. And when people have contentious things, especially when

:38:07.:38:09.

they have conflicts of interests, or in this case the Russian example,

:38:10.:38:15.

what happens is those are checked and taken care of and removed if

:38:16.:38:18.

they are not true. If they are true they might stay. Especially if it is

:38:19.:38:28.

verifiable. And if we catch up with Wiki-mania what will this vast,

:38:29.:38:31.

sprawling and amazing project look like? As we start to reach 4. 5

:38:32.:38:36.

million articles and start to get a lot of the easy articles to write,

:38:37.:38:40.

what happens to the harder articles to write. And maybe Wikipedia has to

:38:41.:38:45.

start engaging in so types of original reporting or original

:38:46.:38:48.

gathering of information that it didn't have to do before. So for

:38:49.:38:53.

example should it fund what might look like a National Geographic-type

:38:54.:38:58.

of exploration of certain areas to get more information to put into

:38:59.:39:01.

Wikipedia, or does it just rely on information you can find on the

:39:02.:39:05.

internet. Perhaps the biggest challenge going forward for

:39:06.:39:08.

Wikipedia is whether its collaborative, egalitarian, idea

:39:09.:39:18.

listic eloss can survive. -- idealistic ethos can survive. We're

:39:19.:39:23.

joined by the cofounder of Wikipedia, I will begin by asking

:39:24.:39:28.

what the European Court of Justice has got wrong, they judge it is a

:39:29.:39:31.

right to be forgotten, what is wrong with that? The biggest problem with

:39:32.:39:36.

that is the rule something not about private information, it includes and

:39:37.:39:42.

indeed was about a link to a legal low-published newspaper article and

:39:43.:39:45.

a reputable newspaper, the article is still up, it is not the accuracy

:39:46.:39:49.

of it is not contested. And that doesn't seem to me like the very

:39:50.:39:54.

best place to start thinking about issues around privacy. It is already

:39:55.:39:57.

Public Information for many years. It is not exercised frommiesry --

:39:58.:40:04.

from history, it is just you need to know where to look? It is like

:40:05.:40:09.

deleting the index to a book, or deleting the card catalogue on from

:40:10.:40:17.

a library. The biggest issue is Google is mandated to become the

:40:18.:40:21.

decider on these things. There is no process of judicial oversight. There

:40:22.:40:24.

is no possibility of appeal, there is no transparency. So the way we

:40:25.:40:29.

look at this is this is not something that should be handed off

:40:30.:40:33.

to private companies. Who should it be handed off to? If we want to go

:40:34.:40:38.

to the very extreme step of banning a link to a legally published news

:40:39.:40:43.

story, at the very least there needs to be judicial oversight. It is not

:40:44.:40:47.

just about legally published news stories, it is about indiscretions,

:40:48.:40:52.

regretful interactions over the Internet. If I was to Google you or

:40:53.:40:57.

use any search engine there would be millions of things about you and it

:40:58.:41:00.

would be almost impossible to sort them. But an ordinary mortal might

:41:01.:41:06.

only have three or four references and if one is regrettable, damaging

:41:07.:41:11.

and ancient history, why should it be brought straight back to the stop

:41:12.:41:14.

of the pile at the click of a button? The thing is it is a false

:41:15.:41:18.

promise. The idea that you will get it out of Google and it will go away

:41:19.:41:22.

is simply not true. For ordinary people they are not really worried

:41:23.:41:32.

about random people over the globe Googling their name, they are

:41:33.:41:34.

worried about friends and neighbours who will know about T the idea that

:41:35.:41:40.

you can some how erase history is not valid. The flood of requests

:41:41.:41:44.

that Google is getting are not primarily from those kinds of

:41:45.:41:48.

things. The one that is we are seeing, the links they have told us

:41:49.:41:50.

about. You have had five requests, and yet still for you it is an issue

:41:51.:41:54.

of epic importance? It is, yeah, these are the first five. Google is

:41:55.:41:58.

just now getting under way, we expect to see hundreds of these.

:41:59.:42:08.

They are very questionable. This is history, history is a human right in

:42:09.:42:14.

my view. So is truth, and you speak as if Wikipedia is a sacrosanct

:42:15.:42:19.

institution and a portal where everything is printed and true? I I

:42:20.:42:26.

could go on there and describe you as a believer in fairy and other

:42:27.:42:32.

things, but it is neither history or truth but it could be on Wikipedia?

:42:33.:42:37.

Not for more than a few seconds. I have experienced that, it is not

:42:38.:42:43.

funny if you are a public person and have a public profile and people

:42:44.:42:50.

have deleted your Wikipedia page? I spoke of my children being born by

:42:51.:42:56.

fertility treatment, and my page had that I wasn't man enough to have my

:42:57.:43:03.

own children, and was there for months until my wife found it. Isn't

:43:04.:43:07.

that the sort of thing? That is the type of thing. That is neither truth

:43:08.:43:12.

nor history and yet it was on there? We have an aggressive community, and

:43:13.:43:16.

biographies of living persons, it is all about that sort of thing. As

:43:17.:43:19.

soon as we know anything like that it is immediately taken down.

:43:20.:43:23.

Immediately. It is hard to get the message to Wikipedia, there is no

:43:24.:43:27.

phone number? It is the easiest thing to contact. Send us an e-mail,

:43:28.:43:34.

click "edit", leave us a note. You need to know it is there, and check

:43:35.:43:39.

your page on a regular basis to know what everyone else is seeing unless

:43:40.:43:44.

you see the problem? It is a good idea to check your page from time to

:43:45.:43:48.

time, and let us know if there is a problem. This is routine work for

:43:49.:43:51.

us. On the question of who writes the entries, there is some disbute

:43:52.:43:57.

about the figure of 9% or 14% of Wikipedia's editors are women. You

:43:58.:44:01.

can detect that imbalance in some of the copy on the site, do you

:44:02.:44:04.

recognise the criticism? Definitely, it is one of the things we are

:44:05.:44:08.

interested and concerned about. We know that when we look at the topics

:44:09.:44:13.

covered in Wikipedia it definitely reflects the interests of the

:44:14.:44:18.

contributors, we want to diversify the contributor base so our coverage

:44:19.:44:21.

of all kinds of articles is improve. This is something that is really a

:44:22.:44:25.

central focus for the organisation, there will be a lot of session about

:44:26.:44:29.

this at the conference this week. It is something that for us is not

:44:30.:44:35.

acceptable. Quick peepedia will never be finished will it? It will

:44:36.:44:38.

never be finished. There is always more to learn and improvements to

:44:39.:44:42.

make. Are you happy with it or do you still see it as an unfinished

:44:43.:44:48.

project, and a work in process? I'm happy with it, it is definitely

:44:49.:44:53.

unfinished. Thank you. Time now to have a look at some of the front

:44:54.:44:59.

pages of the newspapers. The Independent leading:

:45:00.:46:32.

Just before we go, time has beaten us again this evening in order to

:46:33.:46:38.

bring you that story about the humanitarian crisis in northern

:46:39.:46:43.

Iraq. We have sadly had to postpone our item on loom bands, however I

:46:44.:46:46.

will be back tomorrow, which gives me another opportunity to wear mine

:46:47.:46:53.

as the loom bands return. Since the dawn of history farmers have called

:46:54.:46:57.

across the field for their cattle to come and feed, but have they ever

:46:58.:47:01.

used a trombone, well they have now. Here is Kansas farmer Derek

:47:02.:47:07.

Klingenberg. Good night.

:47:08.:47:36.

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