05/08/2014 Newsnight


05/08/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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A hammer blow to David Cameron, a Foreign Office minister quits over

:00:07.:00:12.

the Government's position on Gaza. Our current policy on Gaza is

:00:13.:00:16.

morally indefensible, that it is not in our interests, it is not in

:00:17.:00:20.

British interests, and that it will have consequences for us both

:00:21.:00:24.

internationally and here at home. Who won the first fierce low-fought

:00:25.:00:30.

TV debate between Alex Salmond and Alastair Darling over Scotland's

:00:31.:00:35.

future. Mr Salmond do you agree with David Cameron or not. I was going to

:00:36.:00:38.

make another small point. Do you agree with David Cameron or not. Let

:00:39.:00:42.

me answer your question. Do you agree with him or not, it is yes or

:00:43.:00:51.

no. A deadly disease is sweeping through west Africa, do we need

:00:52.:00:54.

radical solutions to deal with it. We need to think about possible

:00:55.:00:59.

tools like experimental drugs and vaccines. The app that makes Twitter

:01:00.:01:06.

look like War and Peace, it is Yo, I will be speaking to its creator in

:01:07.:01:18.

words of more than two letters. Good evening, there is finally a

:01:19.:01:22.

ceasefire in Gaza, but the reverbations of the conflict are

:01:23.:01:24.

stirring a political battle within the British Government. It is rare

:01:25.:01:27.

minister resigns on a matter of principle, but today the Foreign

:01:28.:01:31.

Office minister, Baroness Warsi did just that in starkly critical terms.

:01:32.:01:36.

She tweeted that she could no longer support Government policy on the war

:01:37.:01:40.

in Gaza. And in a letter to the Prime Minister wrote that "our

:01:41.:01:43.

approach and language during the current crisis is morally

:01:44.:01:48.

indefensible and is not in Britain's national interest". The Prime

:01:49.:01:50.

Minister said in response that he had been consistently clear and

:01:51.:01:57.

calls for peace. Tonight the divisis seem to have beepened, with Nick

:01:58.:02:00.

Clegg calling for a suspension of arms export licenses to Israel. We

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will debate all of this tonight, but we have this report containing some

:02:07.:02:12.

flash photography. Beneath the certificate Rhone facade

:02:13.:02:15.

of Government, tension has simmered over Gaza for week, and today in

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Westminster it finally burst into the open with the resignation of

:02:20.:02:27.

Baroness Warsi. Over the last few weeks I have done everything I can

:02:28.:02:30.

at formal and informal meetings trying to convince our colleagues

:02:31.:02:34.

that our current policy is morally indefensible, that it is not in our

:02:35.:02:38.

interests, it is not British interests, and it will have

:02:39.:02:41.

consequences for us internationally and here at home. But in the end I

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felt the Government's position wasn't moving, therefore I had to,

:02:46.:02:50.

on a point of principle, resign. In her resignation letter to the Prime

:02:51.:02:54.

Minister, the Baroness lambasted the Government's stance on Gaza.

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Once a standard bearer in the Conservative Party's quest for

:03:08.:03:12.

voters from minorities, the former chairman has become a political

:03:13.:03:16.

headache. So why did the Prime Minister take such an uncritical

:03:17.:03:21.

attitude towards Israel over recent week, risking her fury and that of

:03:22.:03:25.

millions of voters. David Cameron has in the past, like in, likened

:03:26.:03:34.

Gaza to a prison camp when he was leader the last time Israel was

:03:35.:03:38.

involved in an intervention he described it as disproportionate,

:03:39.:03:42.

he's not going that far any more. It might be that he listening a lot to

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the regimes in the region. Very much less critical of Israel than

:03:48.:03:51.

European Governments. Perhaps, because like Israel they see Hamas,

:03:52.:03:56.

ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups in the region as more of a

:03:57.:03:59.

threat than we do. There is division within the coalition over whether to

:04:00.:04:03.

accuse Israel publicly of possible war crimes. Indeed Britain, along

:04:04.:04:09.

with the US and Israel, may have been dissuading the Palestinian

:04:10.:04:12.

Authority from taking its case to the International Criminal Court.

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Well, the Palestinian Foreign Minister was there today and said

:04:18.:04:21.

they are about to do that. But they haven't yet, and for so long as the

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Palestinians don't go for full membership of the ICC there is

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little chance of a war crimes investigation taking off. Using the

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term "proportionate" or not using the term "proportionate" or

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"disproportionate" is a highly sensitive political issue. The term

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though not used in the 1977 Geneva protocols describes in ways that we

:04:49.:04:51.

all understand what is one side and the other of the lawful line. It is

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not an easy line to draw, in fact it is extremely difficult line to draw.

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Once you say something is disproportionate, you are saying the

:05:02.:05:04.

person who did that is acting unlawfully. Tonight w a ceasefire

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taking hold in Gaza, evidence of the continuing fight within the

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coalition. With the Lib Dems pushing for an arms embargo on Israel. I

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believe that the export licenses should now be suspended, and working

:05:21.:05:27.

with Vince Cable in this, it is his department in Government that

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administers these export licenses, he and I both believe that the

:05:32.:05:35.

actions of the Israeli military are overstepping the mark in Gaza,

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breaching the conditions of those export licenses and that's why we

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want to see them suspended, pending a wider review in whether they

:05:45.:05:47.

should be revoked more permanently in the long run. And there is

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another point where the Lib Dem leader differs from David Cameron,

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seen here visiting Bethlehem, in labelling the Israeli action

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"disproportionate" Nick Clegg has flagged up a belief that war crimes

:06:03.:06:08.

may have taken place. A factory near Birmingham making drone component

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force Israel was the scene of protests today. Under pressure, the

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Government says licenses for arms sales to Israel are now under

:06:17.:06:20.

review. The British fall-out from the Middle East conflict is just

:06:21.:06:26.

starting. Its consequences could be legal, economic and above all

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political. Joining us from Edinburgh is the

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former leader of the Liberal Democrats, and here in the studio is

:06:36.:06:38.

Douglas Murray the journalist and writer. First of all, do you think

:06:39.:06:41.

Jose Manuel Barroso was right to resign? Well, if she felt as

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strongly as she expressed herself in the letter I don't think there was

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any alternative open to her. Let me say I agree with her judgment that

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it is morally indefensible and against our interests, but I would

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go further than that and say I think it is against the interests of

:06:58.:07:00.

Israel as well. Because how can you build any kind of peace either

:07:01.:07:07.

temporary or lasting, based upon the kind of film and the kind of scenes

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we have seen on our television screens. Essentially what is

:07:12.:07:15.

happening in Gaza is that the infrastructure is being

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systematically taken apart. If that is the feeling of the most senior

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Liberal Democrat to Nick Clegg, which it clearly is, he's not going

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to resign, but isn't it rather surprising that no senior Lib Dem,

:07:26.:07:32.

feeling so strongly, has taken the same road as Baroness Warsi? Each of

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us make our own individual judgments about these things. But no-one can

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be in any doubt for example that people like myself or Paddy Ashdown

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has expressed ourselves as forcibly as we could. If I could pick up on

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the point the piece raised. I'm in no doubt that what happened is

:07:54.:07:56.

disproportionate. And we will come on to that. Very well. Let me just

:07:57.:08:04.

bring in Douglas Murray now. Do you think that Baroness Warsi's

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resignation is harmful to David Cameron in all sorts of ways? Not at

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all. It is fairly well known she has been a bit of a nuisance to him for

:08:11.:08:15.

some time, she has been running effectively an independent policy on

:08:16.:08:18.

a whole range of things which are areas to do with social cohesion and

:08:19.:08:23.

to do with the anti-extremism agenda, which are very much

:08:24.:08:26.

parallel, but different from those of the Prime Minister. Are you

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saying they are destructive? Oh yes, and many people who have worked with

:08:30.:08:33.

her and many people and voices inside the cabinet and others have

:08:34.:08:38.

been quoted saying, before today, how destructive those parallel

:08:39.:08:43.

policies were. Is her voice one that has echos within the wider country?

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Certainly it has echos in the divisions of parliament, that is

:08:48.:08:50.

clear with from what was just said now. She must be assuming that

:08:51.:08:53.

people take different opinions in all sorts of things, she must be

:08:54.:08:56.

reflecting a different opinion in the country? It is possible, I mean

:08:57.:09:00.

it has been said for a long time and fairly well known that Baroness

:09:01.:09:03.

Warsi wanted a Ministry of Her own, she didn't get one, it was clear

:09:04.:09:06.

time after time she wasn't going to get one. Are you saying it is sour

:09:07.:09:10.

grapes? It is interesting, she has been trying to create herself as

:09:11.:09:13.

effectively the minister for Muslim, that has been a very noticeable and

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I think a highly sectarian move on her part. This move and resignation

:09:18.:09:22.

at this point, and let's remember as Israeli troops are withdrawing from

:09:23.:09:27.

Gaza, it is timing and very clear it is a cynical and personal move for

:09:28.:09:32.

future career prospects. If I may say so that is rather a personal and

:09:33.:09:37.

cynical take. There are divisions in the country. Whatever the motives of

:09:38.:09:41.

Jose Manuel Barroso let me make clear I think the real issue is the

:09:42.:09:46.

substance here. And whatever reason she gave to us, if she had been so

:09:47.:09:52.

offensive to David Cameron then he had the opportunity to ask her to

:09:53.:09:59.

ten down at his most recent re-- to step down at his most recent

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reshuffle. You said the substance there is different language being

:10:04.:10:08.

used and Nick Clegg has talked about disproportionate. You said what

:10:09.:10:12.

happened in the school last week, when the Israelis hit the UN school

:10:13.:10:17.

last week was a violation of international law? I believe that to

:10:18.:10:21.

be the case. What would you do about it? The question is whether or not

:10:22.:10:24.

it can be referred to the International Criminal Court. As was

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pointed out in the piece that because Palestine is not a member,

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hasn't signed up then the pollability possibility has been

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made more difficult. If you want to do it independently you have to

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achieve a resolution of the Security Council of the United Nations. So

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the reality is not there. Which you would be pretty certain the United

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States would oppose. I'm accused of doing something wrong by attributing

:10:54.:11:00.

motives to Baroness Warsi, and he's attributing motive to the state of

:11:01.:11:05.

Israel and an entire country, people have to be careful in positions like

:11:06.:11:10.

Ming and Baroness Warsi have to be extremely careful at times like

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this. And Baroness Warsi speaks to it, there is a grassroots movement,

:11:15.:11:17.

particularly in the Labour Party movement, of young Muslims in this

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country who feel very whipped up by this, and people like Ming Campbell

:11:23.:11:27.

and Baroness Warsi have to be careful before they start accusing

:11:28.:11:31.

the nation state of Israel of war crimes. They are crimes going on and

:11:32.:11:36.

committed by Hamas, a terrorist group, and it is very noticeable in

:11:37.:11:40.

this whole debate we do not hear from the Liberal Democrat party or

:11:41.:11:45.

from figures like Baroness Warsi the condemnation of the terrorist group

:11:46.:11:48.

Hamas coming out of the mouth of the beginning of every statement. I will

:11:49.:11:52.

do that now, I did indeed on the occasion when the Foreign Secretary

:11:53.:11:56.

made a statement? The House of Commons. It is wholly unacceptable

:11:57.:12:01.

that Hamas should use rockets in an indiscriminate way. Do you think

:12:02.:12:04.

Israel should be allowed to defend themselves from Hamas. This is not

:12:05.:12:09.

Alastair Darling against Alex Salmond, I regard it as wholly

:12:10.:12:15.

unacceptable, but it is equally wholly unacceptable for a country

:12:16.:12:19.

like Israel, which has the most sophisticated defence capability at

:12:20.:12:22.

its disposal should take action which has the effect of putting the

:12:23.:12:26.

lives of innocent women and children at risk, more than at risk. Can I

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just turn one other point in Baroness Warsi's letter talked about

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the consequences of what she says policies in Gaza and radicalisation

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here in the country, she talked about that having consequences for

:12:44.:12:46.

years, do you agree with that? Remember that's precisely the

:12:47.:12:49.

warning that was given to Tony Blair on the eve of the military action

:12:50.:12:55.

against Iraq. It has also been publicly stated by the Intelligence

:12:56.:12:59.

Services in this country that they are much concerned about

:13:00.:13:05.

radicalisation. That being... It is saying agree with my views. I will

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finish my point even if Douglas Murray won't listen to it. Briefly,

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let him finish. I'm just saying this, radicalisation is something

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which presents the most clear and imminent danger to the security of

:13:20.:13:25.

this country and anything... Ministers shouldn't be helping to

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whip it up. Do listen for heaven's sake, anything which adds to that or

:13:30.:13:34.

brings any encouragement to that radicalisation, is wholly against

:13:35.:13:38.

our interests and security of any of our citizens. Including accusing

:13:39.:13:43.

Israel of war crimes. No sooner was the referendum of Scottish

:13:44.:13:46.

independence announced than negotiations about who would and who

:13:47.:13:50.

wouldn't take part in TV debates kicked off. Alex Salmond, the first

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minister of Scotland would only debate with David Cameron, he

:13:57.:14:01.

refused, the SNP held that line for a long time, but six weeks away from

:14:02.:14:07.

the vote Salmond has sparred with Alastair Darling, in the Better

:14:08.:14:11.

Together campaign in a two-hour televised debate. It ended half an

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hour ago, here are some of the highlights. Making the case for

:14:16.:14:19.

independence is the First Minister Alex Salmond and making the case for

:14:20.:14:24.

the union is the leader of Better Together, Alastair Darling, please

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welcome them. For more than half of my life Scotland has been governed

:14:36.:14:39.

by parties that we didn't elect at Westminster. And these parties have

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given us from everything from the poll tax to the bedroom tax, and

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they are the same people who through project fear are telling us this

:14:51.:14:56.

country can't run our own affairs. Let's say with confidence, with

:14:57.:15:01.

pride, with optimisim, no thanks to the risks of independence, and let's

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have the best of both worlds, not just for us, but for generations to

:15:05.:15:12.

come. How can we build a just society when we have policies

:15:13.:15:15.

imposed upon us from Westminster that Scottish MPs voted against but

:15:16.:15:19.

did not have the power to stop, so my vision is for a prosperous

:15:20.:15:24.

economy but also for a just society in Scotland. I want you to do

:15:25.:15:27.

something that will be really difficult, I want you to contemplate

:15:28.:15:31.

for just one minute the fact you might be wrong. What is Plan B. If

:15:32.:15:40.

you don't get a currency union, what is it we are going to have had

:15:41.:15:43.

instead, please tell us we need to know. I will do something more

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difficult than contemplate that I'm wrong, I'm contemplating you were

:15:49.:15:54.

right last year when you said it was logical and desirable. I believe you

:15:55.:16:00.

still think it is logical and desirable that last year was before

:16:01.:16:03.

we were in the campaign period, and therefore during the campaign period

:16:04.:16:07.

you, George Osborne, the unionist parties, have to engage in project

:16:08.:16:14.

fear and tell people that something that was logical desirable last year

:16:15.:16:18.

isn't this year. Any eight-year-old can tell you the flag of the

:16:19.:16:21.

country, the capital of the country and its currency, I presume the flag

:16:22.:16:26.

is the saltire and the capital Edinburgh, you can't tell us what

:16:27.:16:30.

currency we will have, what will an eight-year-old make of that. David

:16:31.:16:34.

Cameron has said supporters of independence will always be able to

:16:35.:16:40.

cite I examples of small independent economies across Europe, it would be

:16:41.:16:43.

wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another successful

:16:44.:16:47.

independent country. But do you agree with David Cameron on that?

:16:48.:16:51.

Small countries do have to make sure they balance the books. Do you agree

:16:52.:16:54.

with him, everybody has to balance the books. Your own figures we have

:16:55.:17:01.

a much bigger deficit at the time you want independence from the rest

:17:02.:17:04.

of the UK, that would mean difficult decisions which you are not prepared

:17:05.:17:08.

to face up with. Do you agree with David Cameron or not I feel like

:17:09.:17:14.

Jeremy Paxman and Michael Howard here. You are more like Michael

:17:15.:17:20.

Howard than Jeremy Paxman, you are not answering the question. Far too

:17:21.:17:23.

much of the debate has been characterised by guess work, blind

:17:24.:17:28.

faith and crossed fingers, that is no way to decide the future for our

:17:29.:17:33.

children. Voting question is ambition over fear, telling the

:17:34.:17:36.

world that Scotland is an equal nation that carries itself with

:17:37.:17:40.

belief and confidence, this is our moment, let's take it. Elements of

:17:41.:17:46.

the debate there from earlier tonight, joining me from Glasgow we

:17:47.:17:56.

have our guests. Here in the studio is Isabelle Hardman, from the

:17:57.:18:02.

Spectator live blogging the debate tonight. On points, how do you think

:18:03.:18:09.

that went? I think actually it was no game-changer for starters. We

:18:10.:18:13.

have had a group of young voters here all night who all say they are

:18:14.:18:17.

more undecided than they were at the start. It was successful for

:18:18.:18:23.

Alastair Darling to the extend that the subject matter continued to be

:18:24.:18:29.

money, pensions, currency, all the aspects to an extent which would be

:18:30.:18:33.

favoured by the unionist cause. And Alex Salmond didn't manage to get

:18:34.:18:37.

the values, the reasons that anybody would really want to have an

:18:38.:18:41.

independent Scotland as firmly at the centre of the debate as Alastair

:18:42.:18:45.

Darling managed to get money. So I think to that degree you would have

:18:46.:18:49.

to say it began to move Alastair Darling's way. But having said that,

:18:50.:18:54.

I think there is no silver bullet in the argument or in the debate and it

:18:55.:18:57.

will be the conversations people have around it that matter. Did you

:18:58.:19:02.

get the sense it was a moment tonight where six weeks out this

:19:03.:19:06.

actually would have energised a lot of people in terms of taking part in

:19:07.:19:11.

the debate? I think so actually, I was in the hall admittedly in the

:19:12.:19:15.

cheap seats up the top, but it did feel quite electric at points.

:19:16.:19:20.

Particularly in the cross-examination when Alastair

:19:21.:19:22.

Darling cross-examined Alex Salmond and visa versa. That is when it

:19:23.:19:26.

really came to life. And overall I think you know Alex Salmond is an

:19:27.:19:32.

experienced television performer, he was much slicker and confident,

:19:33.:19:38.

Darling was very nervous initially. Over the cross-examination things

:19:39.:19:41.

came to light and Darling came to light and we got into the

:19:42.:19:44.

substantive issues. It is those issues that a lot of undecided

:19:45.:19:49.

voters are interested in. On the substantive issues, did you get a

:19:50.:19:53.

sense no matter if you are for or not, a lot of people south of the

:19:54.:19:58.

border couldn't see sadly is Scotland very much feels like a

:19:59.:20:00.

different country? That was certainly the impression that Alex

:20:01.:20:02.

Salmond wanted to create, particularly in his closing

:20:03.:20:05.

statement. He talked about Scotland being a more equal country and that

:20:06.:20:08.

could be the impression it sold to the rest of the world. I think this

:20:09.:20:12.

is part of the SNP's campaign in general. It wants to create the

:20:13.:20:15.

impression that Scotland is separate. And to a certain extent it

:20:16.:20:20.

has succeeded in that, whether or not Scotland votes to go

:20:21.:20:23.

independent. As was said, on the hard questions, the economic

:20:24.:20:26.

questions, where there aren't any silver bullets there were very, very

:20:27.:20:30.

strong exchanges, on the question of currency, and also on the question

:20:31.:20:37.

of being in or out of Europe. A sense that these, you know, they

:20:38.:20:40.

talk about in the end of the day it will be people voting about identity

:20:41.:20:44.

or whatever, these are hard-headed economic questions aren't they?

:20:45.:20:49.

Absolutely, and they are both issues on which Alex Salmond and the yes

:20:50.:20:53.

campaign has never been particularly strong. I thought Alastair Darling

:20:54.:20:57.

did particularly well on dissecting his position on the currency union.

:20:58.:21:01.

Very curious for Alex Salmond to raise the European Union and go

:21:02.:21:04.

after Alastair Darling on that point. Because again, as I say, he's

:21:05.:21:07.

not on strong ground there. What the debate did was highlight that

:21:08.:21:12.

actually after two years of this referendum debate, two years in

:21:13.:21:15.

which things have been thoroughly raked over, Alex Salmond and the yes

:21:16.:21:19.

campaign are no further forward on the EU and the currency union

:21:20.:21:23.

question. Leslie, it is always a problem isn't it in whatever the

:21:24.:21:27.

referendum is, when there is bed fellow that is don't otherwise

:21:28.:21:32.

agree, you have Alex Salmond harrying Alastair Darling to agree

:21:33.:21:35.

with David Cameron's view that Scotland could be a successful small

:21:36.:21:39.

country, and Alastair Darling found himself in a position of not wanting

:21:40.:21:43.

to agree with David Cameron? That's true, and that was a kind of wobbly

:21:44.:21:47.

moment for Alastair Darling. As was the fact that when he was asked for

:21:48.:21:51.

two definite powers that would be given to Scots if they voted no, he

:21:52.:21:56.

came up with road tax and then some devolution of income tax. Now today

:21:57.:22:03.

we were told there was a new devo more proposal agreed by the three

:22:04.:22:10.

unionist parties. That decision of more devolution welfare wasn't

:22:11.:22:14.

brought to Alastair Darling, that should have been brought up more.

:22:15.:22:18.

There are your perspective, blogging here in London looking at this,

:22:19.:22:21.

where what are the big issues and the big points of contention do you

:22:22.:22:25.

think? The main take away from the debate was the currency union. That

:22:26.:22:29.

was where Darling was particularly strong. Hammering away asking the

:22:30.:22:33.

same question again and again. And the audience helped him, they were

:22:34.:22:36.

confused about Salmond's position and Plan B, whether he actually had

:22:37.:22:40.

one or not. Salmond doesn't want to state whether he has a Plan B

:22:41.:22:43.

because he wants to give the impression that Better Together are

:22:44.:22:48.

cobbling together half truths and misquotes and all their warnings are

:22:49.:22:53.

campaign rhetoric. It also looks as if he hasn't thought about it. Among

:22:54.:22:57.

the other issues pulled out tonight there was oil, immigration, social

:22:58.:23:01.

justice and so forth, how do you think that the tenor of this debate

:23:02.:23:05.

and the areas covered will inform the next one? Obviously both

:23:06.:23:11.

participants will take away from that what they perceived were their

:23:12.:23:16.

weaknesses and their advisers perceive as weaknesses and work on

:23:17.:23:20.

that. Alex Salmond came across at points as frivolous, he has a

:23:21.:23:26.

terrible habit of dredging up newspaper cuttings and off the

:23:27.:23:29.

record things, and aliens he appeared frivolous on that point and

:23:30.:23:34.

will avoid that the next debate. Darling missed a trick by not

:23:35.:23:37.

setting out a clearer vision for after a no vote. It is a problem in

:23:38.:23:42.

any campaign if you are saying Better Together and interpreted in

:23:43.:23:46.

Scotland as a no vote. And Alex Salmond getting trapped on that the

:23:47.:23:49.

positive reasons what you would say would come out if indeed on

:23:50.:23:53.

September 18th Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom. What do

:23:54.:23:57.

you think Leslie would be one of the big things that will happen. Will it

:23:58.:24:00.

return to the issue of currency, people are passionate about this?

:24:01.:24:05.

Here is the thing to say. Actually the whole pro-independence campaign,

:24:06.:24:09.

like myself. I'm not a member of the SNP or a formal member of the yes

:24:10.:24:13.

campaign. There are many political parties voting for yes, but far more

:24:14.:24:17.

people who are no political parties at all. Tomorrow there is a mass

:24:18.:24:21.

canvas of Scotland by the radical independence campaign and they are

:24:22.:24:24.

looking at ten areas where actually no party has actually bothered to

:24:25.:24:30.

canvas for several generations, these folk aren't registered to

:24:31.:24:32.

vote. There is a huge grassroots movement going on here, that is

:24:33.:24:36.

something very difficult for the classic media to get hold of and

:24:37.:24:39.

perhaps even the official campaigns, because it is beneath the radar. To

:24:40.:24:45.

me it is transformational and change always happens like that. A Guardian

:24:46.:24:51.

poll taken straight after the debate put Alastair Darling at 56 and Alex

:24:52.:24:56.

Salmond at 44. Is that what it looked like to you? I think so,

:24:57.:24:59.

partly because Salmond didn't perform as well as he could have

:25:00.:25:02.

done. Do you think he was too tricksy on the questions? The stuff

:25:03.:25:06.

about aliens and the right side of the road was irrelevant, and

:25:07.:25:09.

actually he really needed to have a clear win from tonight. And even if

:25:10.:25:12.

you think it was debatable whether or not he won, that is bad enough

:25:13.:25:16.

for him. Thank you very much, we can go now to Alan Little, who joins us

:25:17.:25:21.

from Glasgow. What was the atmosphere like from where you were

:25:22.:25:31.

watching it? Can you hear me? We will come back to Alan a little

:25:32.:25:36.

later, as soon as we have sound attaching us to Glasgow. Now camera

:25:37.:25:41.

five here I can go to you, thank you one of the unique things about the

:25:42.:25:45.

referendum on Scottish independence is 16-year-olds can vote, for

:25:46.:25:50.

another viewer in tonight's debate we went to meet some of them. A

:25:51.:25:55.

group involved in Generation 2014, a BBC Scotland project to track young

:25:56.:25:59.

people's voting intentions. They have never voted in a national

:26:00.:26:03.

election, but the independence referendum has given 16 and

:26:04.:26:06.

17-year-olds in Scotland their chance. How will these lovers of the

:26:07.:26:10.

selfie, the social media generation vote? I travelled to Glasgow as

:26:11.:26:15.

tonight's debate loomed, to find out. First stop, Motherwell where I

:26:16.:26:26.

met a political ingenue and undecided voter Jessica. I think now

:26:27.:26:33.

it is getting so much closer to the vote everyone is so interested in

:26:34.:26:37.

it, and everyone is talking about it a lot. Even when we were out at the

:26:38.:26:40.

weekend and things it will always turn to the conversation at one

:26:41.:26:43.

point. This is where you get your information about the referendum?

:26:44.:26:48.

Pretty much. It is where everybody will, my age, will probably find out

:26:49.:26:52.

most things. Forget newspapers and television, this generation heads to

:26:53.:26:57.

social media as it weighs up how to vote. I'm on Facebook nearly 24

:26:58.:27:02.

hours a day. Usually I will just go on and it will just be there. This

:27:03.:27:06.

is about the debate, do you recognise that man? I know Alex

:27:07.:27:11.

Salmond quite well. What about this one? Not too familiar with him.

:27:12.:27:15.

Alastair Darling. So everybody, there is a really important debate

:27:16.:27:19.

going on tonight, does anyone know what it is? Yes. Yes. Brilliant, you

:27:20.:27:25.

are all very clued in. These under-18s are on a council-run

:27:26.:27:31.

course learning about entrepeneurialism.

:27:32.:27:35.

How many are going to vote yes, who will vote no who is undecided? I

:27:36.:27:44.

have got a few deal-breakers, mainly the EU-NATO issue. Because Scotland

:27:45.:27:49.

currently is part of the greater UK we are also under NATO and the EU

:27:50.:27:54.

subsequently, and if we were to leave then both bodies have said it

:27:55.:27:57.

would be very difficult to reapply, and it could take up to five or

:27:58.:28:02.

eight years to get back into the EU. As a 16-year-old you are worried

:28:03.:28:06.

about that? Yeah. Because I think growing up it is like a backing

:28:07.:28:10.

almost of kind of having a bigger body behind the country rather than

:28:11.:28:15.

just, if you want to be independent you don't want to be on your own at

:28:16.:28:21.

the same time. Whether university tuition fees would stay free in a

:28:22.:28:25.

future Scotland was another big question. These youngsters were

:28:26.:28:32.

enfranchised by Alex Salmond but the polls show more plan to vote no

:28:33.:28:37.

rather than yes. Some say because the social media generation are more

:28:38.:28:40.

linked into the outside world. They are the first generation that has

:28:41.:28:44.

grown up always with networked computers, they use social media,

:28:45.:28:47.

they talk to people elsewhere, they order something from abroad and it

:28:48.:28:52.

arrives within one or two days. It plays into their voting intentions.

:28:53.:28:55.

Not that they feel less Scottish as such, but that they think less about

:28:56.:29:04.

smaller scales. Borders don't make as much sense to them. Our last

:29:05.:29:08.

young voter says she's not Scottish or British first just a human being.

:29:09.:29:12.

I am glade that we have been given this vote, because ideally it is a

:29:13.:29:18.

better future and I think, it is about our future and we should have

:29:19.:29:22.

a say in it. It is daunting, I'm voting but undecided right now. I

:29:23.:29:25.

don't have that long left to make a decision. There are around half a

:29:26.:29:29.

million voters who like these three haven't yet decided how they will

:29:30.:29:33.

vote. So what did they think of tonight's debate. I think it is

:29:34.:29:36.

quite interesting and you do get to see both sides. I think it has been

:29:37.:29:41.

really interesting at times, but it can be boring because it is like

:29:42.:29:45.

repetitive, they keep asking the same questions, he keeps giving the

:29:46.:29:49.

same answers. No-one is actually giving you a definitive answer, you

:29:50.:29:54.

are left there to sit and wonder by yourself. Scotland's under-18s make

:29:55.:30:00.

up 2. 5% of the electorate. As the polls narrow, their voices will play

:30:01.:30:04.

an important role in their country's future.

:30:05.:30:07.

They just keep asking the same questions. I'm joined by Alan Little

:30:08.:30:11.

and try to ask him the same way west again! What was the big take out

:30:12.:30:16.

tonight? I can hear you now. If anybody had asked most political

:30:17.:30:19.

observers earlier on this evening who they expected to win this debate

:30:20.:30:22.

they would have said that Alex Salmond is the superior debater and

:30:23.:30:27.

that is not even Alastair Darling's most fervent supporters would

:30:28.:30:30.

concede campaigning of this sort on the stump is not his greatest

:30:31.:30:34.

strength. You wouldn't have thought that from the way the debate went.

:30:35.:30:38.

We learned that Better Together have bane donned old fears, hammering

:30:39.:30:43.

away on the question of the currency will be perceived as negative, there

:30:44.:30:47.

is a danger it might be counter-productive. We saw Alastair

:30:48.:30:54.

Darling going for the jugular. We learned whether or not it is fair or

:30:55.:30:59.

just the burden of proof is very much on the side of those who want

:31:00.:31:03.

radical change and the yes campaign. On the currency question it is their

:31:04.:31:08.

weakness suit and Better Together have really taken the gloves off on

:31:09.:31:12.

that and on the question of the European Union membership. They have

:31:13.:31:15.

abandoned the fears they had earlier in the year that it might not be

:31:16.:31:19.

working that Scots might vote against it. And I think they will be

:31:20.:31:25.

concluding tonight that they should keep hammering away at that, keep

:31:26.:31:28.

pulling at that thread and that will get them over the finishing line.

:31:29.:31:32.

And the nationalists must be looking at their strategy and saying we have

:31:33.:31:35.

to have an answer to this currency question and pretty soon.

:31:36.:31:40.

Thank you very much indeed. It is a measure of the fear of the spread of

:31:41.:31:47.

the Ebola outbreak in west Africa that British Airways has suspended

:31:48.:31:51.

lights to like beeria and Sierra Leone until the end of the month,

:31:52.:31:56.

due to it has said to the deteriorating health condition in

:31:57.:31:59.

the country. The outbreak has claimed 887 people across west

:32:00.:32:04.

Africa, and the pace of the infection is fastest in Liberia, two

:32:05.:32:10.

infected aid woers returned to the US have in isolation and given doses

:32:11.:32:14.

of an experimental treatment to boost the immune system. Independent

:32:15.:32:18.

voices are calling for the pharmaceutical industry to put more

:32:19.:32:24.

resources into creating a vaccine to treat the deadly virus.

:32:25.:32:28.

At the centre of this outbreak is fear and anxiety. Ebola has now

:32:29.:32:35.

spread beyond the rural village where is it had been contained to

:32:36.:32:38.

the vast coastal cities of west Africa. Sandra Smiley has just

:32:39.:32:47.

returned from one of the capitals. There is a lot of fear and stigma

:32:48.:32:53.

around the disease, and in some of the areas that are affected by

:32:54.:32:57.

Ebola. The example of this is the story of Finda Marie, a 33-year-old

:32:58.:33:04.

woman demonstrating symptoms of Ebola, her sister called in an alert

:33:05.:33:09.

and she was tested and tested positive two, days later she died.

:33:10.:33:14.

Some of the members of her sister's community blamed her sister for her

:33:15.:33:17.

death because they said that if she had stayed at home then she would

:33:18.:33:22.

have lived. There are a lot of misconceptions around healthcare

:33:23.:33:24.

workers in these communities, and that is hindering MSF and other

:33:25.:33:33.

NGO's work. Nearly 900 have died from the disease across four

:33:34.:33:38.

countries. Ebola spreads by direct contact with bodily fluids, the

:33:39.:33:41.

current outbreak is killing around half of those infected. Today a

:33:42.:33:46.

second American missionary landed back in Atlanta for treatment. The

:33:47.:33:49.

condition of both aid workers is said to have suddenly improved after

:33:50.:33:53.

they were offered a highly experimental drug, not available to

:33:54.:33:58.

locals. Tell us about these details that you have learned about this

:33:59.:34:02.

experimental and some are even saying secret serum? US TV networks

:34:03.:34:08.

have been full of talk about a wonder drug, they are attributing

:34:09.:34:13.

any improvement to that alone, but that is impossible. One reason Ebola

:34:14.:34:18.

generates so much fear is there is no single cure, advantage s are in

:34:19.:34:24.

development with human trials in the autumn, not quick enough for some.

:34:25.:34:28.

Tomorrow in a letter to the Wall Street Journal, a group of

:34:29.:34:31.

influential scientist also call for treatment to be fast-tracked and

:34:32.:34:34.

west African countries to be given the chance to try new untested

:34:35.:34:39.

drugs. This time we seem to be in an exceptional situation, we have had

:34:40.:34:42.

an epidemic that has gin going on for six months or possibly longer f

:34:43.:34:46.

anything it is going out of control rather than being contained. And

:34:47.:34:53.

rereally need to be thinking about other possible tools we could be

:34:54.:34:59.

using here. Part of the problem is large drug companies have little

:35:00.:35:02.

incentive to develop new medicines. The number of Ebola victims in

:35:03.:35:07.

Africa is still tiny compared to major western killers like heart

:35:08.:35:10.

disease and cancer. I think the question fundamentally is then also

:35:11.:35:15.

about limited resources and how does a pharmacompany decide to spend its

:35:16.:35:19.

money and where to invest. And also from our benefit is something like

:35:20.:35:23.

heart disease, for instance, kills 160,000 people a year in the UK,

:35:24.:35:26.

that is one every three minute, approximately. So you know if you

:35:27.:35:31.

had a choice about where you can meet the needs best of a large

:35:32.:35:34.

population, that is where you would invest. It may take concerted

:35:35.:35:41.

international effort to find a cure with the World Health Organisation

:35:42.:35:45.

taking the lead. Until then Ebola will keep rearing its head and

:35:46.:35:48.

generating shock headlines in the west and genuine fear across large

:35:49.:35:56.

swathes of the developing world. As mobile phones allow us to do more

:35:57.:35:59.

and more, it is pretty surprising that the latest communications

:36:00.:36:04.

sensation is utterly minimal. A free app launched on April fool's day,

:36:05.:36:08.

which has been downloaded more than two million times. Has the single

:36:09.:36:12.

purpose of being able to send to other users one word, unchanging,

:36:13.:36:17.

uncorruptible, and that word is "yo", the app has been valued at $10

:36:18.:36:22.

million, is it brilliant or bonkers. In a minute we will hear from the

:36:23.:36:27.

man behind it. First we discover the joy of Yo.

:36:28.:36:32.

The text-based communication we are all addicted to has a big

:36:33.:36:36.

limitation, context. You can't see the sender's face, were they being

:36:37.:36:42.

ironic, playful, serious, angry, passionate, despairing or something

:36:43.:36:47.

else entirely. Perhaps the ultimate mobile app is this one, Yo, here is

:36:48.:36:54.

mobile messages that is all context. What does it mean? You tell me. Wait

:36:55.:36:59.

it works is simple, after I was downloaded the app I can find out

:37:00.:37:02.

which of my friends have downloaded it, in this case my producer James.

:37:03.:37:08.

I can send him a message, Yo, and if he wants he can reply. There you go,

:37:09.:37:14.

Yo, if I want to send another one I can send it, Yo, did I mention this

:37:15.:37:21.

was launched on April fool's day. If it is a joke it is a pretty serious

:37:22.:37:27.

one, a million downloads and $1. 5 million of investment, and a

:37:28.:37:31.

valuation of the company between $5 million and $10 million. Is it a

:37:32.:37:39.

quays of Yo bubble, aisle lean is a partner in the venture capital

:37:40.:37:44.

company, she says we are in very different territory than the late

:37:45.:37:50.

dotcom bubble of the 1980s. You have mastive user communities and

:37:51.:37:54.

audiences that people with monetise, you are seeing a lot of engagment

:37:55.:37:57.

and people are coming back and using Yo again and again and again. There

:37:58.:38:00.

is more fundamentals behind what people are doing and growth pushing

:38:01.:38:04.

what is on the Internet and the app economy. I don't think it is the

:38:05.:38:06.

same thing as last time. According to one study the mobile app economy

:38:07.:38:12.

is now worth $25 billion a year, up from roughly zero six years ago. All

:38:13.:38:16.

over the world there are thousands of teams working on the assumption

:38:17.:38:20.

that we barely have begun to explore the potential of the app. Kate Rider

:38:21.:38:26.

is developing Maven, a health app for women. One of the biggest

:38:27.:38:30.

problems in healthcare is access, having health on your mobile device

:38:31.:38:35.

means you can access it from anywhere, and you can connect

:38:36.:38:42.

instaly with our product and healthcare providers, or

:38:43.:38:45.

information, you can keep your health data on the phone so yeah, I

:38:46.:38:49.

mean definitely mobiles are the centre of a lot of the innovation in

:38:50.:38:54.

healthcare. But that doesn't mean that every idea will succeed.

:38:55.:38:58.

Although there are some blockbusters, many, indeed most of

:38:59.:39:04.

the 700,000 plus apps available on app stores fail to make money. And,

:39:05.:39:11.

what about Yo, go or no? We will find out now, because joining me

:39:12.:39:16.

from San Francisco we have our guest, the founder of Yo. Good

:39:17.:39:20.

evening to you. It was launched as David said on April fools day, was

:39:21.:39:26.

it first a light-hearted joke? No, it wasn't a joke. It was launched on

:39:27.:39:32.

the 1th of April, but for us it was a fun app that we used and we saw a

:39:33.:39:38.

lot of use case force it. We saw its potential right from the start. We

:39:39.:39:42.

didn't think about all the use case, but from the beginning we

:39:43.:39:46.

immediately saw that people liked using it. There are a lot of case

:39:47.:39:50.

force it. How did you come up with the idea, did you do market research

:39:51.:39:54.

or have a brain wave? It wasn't like that. My partner asked me to do a

:39:55.:40:00.

app for him to test one big button that sends a push notification in

:40:01.:40:03.

order to summon his personal assistant. In the beginning I

:40:04.:40:07.

thought it was a silly idea and I didn't want to do it. Two weeks

:40:08.:40:11.

later he came again and asked me to do it again. And then I remembered

:40:12.:40:16.

that I have a friend which I basically talk with him in the same

:40:17.:40:20.

manner, we text each other messages with no confident, for basically

:40:21.:40:27.

texting each other "yo". I like that it started as a summons to a PA. In

:40:28.:40:32.

the relatively early stages what applications apart from saying hi to

:40:33.:40:36.

your friends might it have? We think of the Yo not as an app to say hi to

:40:37.:40:40.

your friend, we think of it as platform. As a platform we open an

:40:41.:40:44.

API and it is public, and other people can use it for a lot of

:40:45.:40:47.

things. For example restaurants can use it to just notify the customers

:40:48.:40:54.

when the table is ready instead of having the customers waiting by the

:40:55.:40:58.

door. Websites that don't have an app can send notifications to their

:40:59.:41:05.

readers. News websites can send notifications. This is basically a

:41:06.:41:09.

communication platform. Currently there is no content, but the

:41:10.:41:13.

notification itself is a message. Do you think it will make you rich? I

:41:14.:41:17.

don't think about that currently. Thank you very much indeed for

:41:18.:41:21.

joining us. It sounds like the stuff of science

:41:22.:41:27.

fiction, send a spacecraft on a 12-year mission to chase down and

:41:28.:41:30.

land on a comet in deep space. This is no Space Oddity, it is real. The

:41:31.:41:36.

European Space Agency Rosetta spacecraft has been pursuing comet,

:41:37.:41:47.

the comet for six billion kilometres. Tomorrow it will get

:41:48.:41:51.

there. We go behind the scenes at Mission Control. Comets can be

:41:52.:42:05.

spectacular objects. But to scientists they are amongst the most

:42:06.:42:08.

valuable objects in our skies, because they can take us back in

:42:09.:42:12.

time to the origins of the Solar System. The formation of the sun and

:42:13.:42:19.

the planets left behind millions of bits of ice and rock spinning around

:42:20.:42:23.

the Solar System and they are what we now call asteroids and comets.

:42:24.:42:31.

That means that comets can help answer the fundamental questions

:42:32.:42:35.

about our own earth's origin, and perhaps the biggest mystery of all

:42:36.:42:43.

is where did all the water come from? It might sound outlandish but

:42:44.:42:49.

the blue planet wasn't always blue. When the earth was a young planet it

:42:50.:42:57.

was searingly hot and volcanic. And any water on the surface would have

:42:58.:43:01.

simply boiled away into space, and with no water there could be no

:43:02.:43:08.

life. But at some point water appeared back on the surface, we

:43:09.:43:12.

became the blue planet and life could emerge in all of its glorious

:43:13.:43:15.

diversity. But finding out where that water came from is a

:43:16.:43:19.

fundamental question. And one we don't know the answer to. Some

:43:20.:43:24.

scientists think there was water trapped under the earth's surface

:43:25.:43:28.

which then seeped out. Many scientists believe that this water

:43:29.:43:34.

comes from space. From the IC comets and asteroids that bombard earth,

:43:35.:43:41.

left over from the beginning of the Solar System. How can we tell if

:43:42.:43:45.

this water came from a comet. Surprisingly it is not impossible.

:43:46.:43:48.

All water has an atomic significanture, little differences

:43:49.:43:51.

that create a finger print. By carefully comparing the water on the

:43:52.:43:55.

comet to that here on earth, we can tell whether they had the same

:43:56.:43:59.

origin or not. But to do that properly we have to land on the

:44:00.:44:03.

comet. Something never before attempted, that is what Rosetta will

:44:04.:44:10.

do and why it is a supremely ambitious mission. Here at Mission

:44:11.:44:17.

Control in Germany, I met up with the man in charge. Rosetta's flight

:44:18.:44:26.

director Andrea. It has been a long journey, hell us how Rosetta has got

:44:27.:44:33.

to the comet? The comet is flying relatively far away from the sun.

:44:34.:44:38.

And our rockets couldn't deliver the spacecraft to such an orbit, we had

:44:39.:44:43.

to use energy from planets in the Solar System to accelerate Rosetta

:44:44.:44:47.

further and further out into the Solar System to reach the comet.

:44:48.:44:52.

This takes time. So Rosetta has spent the last ten years spiralling

:44:53.:44:57.

around the Solar System, flying past the earth, then Mars, then earth

:44:58.:45:01.

twice more, using the gravity of the planets to nudge it into its deep

:45:02.:45:09.

space orbit. Now we are on a trajectory that would fly close to

:45:10.:45:13.

the comet, but we are not exactly on the same orbit around the sun, we

:45:14.:45:17.

have match the two orbits. Without that the comet would fly-past? There

:45:18.:45:21.

would be a fly by, a mission like many others that flew next to comets

:45:22.:45:25.

but that is not what we want to do. We want to reach the comet and stop

:45:26.:45:30.

there and orbit the comet. We had to slow down the spacecraft compared to

:45:31.:45:36.

the comet and slowly approach it, and once we were there we could

:45:37.:45:39.

start the mission. Tomorrow Rosetta will finally reach the comet and

:45:40.:45:46.

begin its exploration. Why is it difficult to go into orbit around a

:45:47.:45:49.

comet? We don't know anything about the comet, the shape, the gravity,

:45:50.:45:53.

so we have to characterise all this. We don't even know the altitude

:45:54.:45:58.

hour, it is rotating. How close with Rosetta get to the comet? We will

:45:59.:46:05.

fly mid-September an area of 30kms and then country to 20kms if the

:46:06.:46:10.

environment will allow it. We still have to explore. Exploring the comet

:46:11.:46:14.

and its environment will initially be done by imaging it. And already

:46:15.:46:22.

the images taken from thousands of kilometres away have thrown up

:46:23.:46:26.

revelation about the comet's shape. We are surprised to see it looks

:46:27.:46:31.

like two bodies sticking together. The most recent ones I have seen

:46:32.:46:38.

make it look like a rubber duck? I like that a lot. It is a surprise

:46:39.:46:41.

and we have to find out why the body looks like this. Just looking at the

:46:42.:46:46.

shape model here, these image, it is hard to understand where you would

:46:47.:46:52.

safely put down this landing. It is the obvious thing to go for the big

:46:53.:46:57.

face here? The tricky thing is the sun coming up or going down. You

:46:58.:47:02.

don't want to land in the dark? You don't want to land in the dark. The

:47:03.:47:05.

lander will basically be dropped on to the surface from a few thousand

:47:06.:47:10.

metres up, because the gravity on the comet is a tiny traction of the

:47:11.:47:15.

gravity here on earth, it will take several hours to fall. It makes for

:47:16.:47:21.

a soft landing but the very weak gravity also presents a problem.

:47:22.:47:29.

Gravity is about 100 millionth of the gravity on the earth. To top it

:47:30.:47:35.

bouncing straight back off the comet we have ice screw that is will dig

:47:36.:47:39.

down as soon as the feet hit the floor. They are not just to secure

:47:40.:47:43.

it, it will make measurements of the surface and measure the seismic

:47:44.:47:47.

qualities of the surface as well. Even that part of the messing, just

:47:48.:47:51.

securing it to the comet is science itself. One of the key tasks for the

:47:52.:47:56.

lander will be to analyse the ice within the comet to see if it

:47:57.:48:02.

matches the water we find on earth. Meanwhile, Rosetta will continue to

:48:03.:48:06.

orbit, staying with the comet as it goes through its closest approach

:48:07.:48:12.

with the sun r duesing vast plumes of gas and dust throwing into the

:48:13.:48:22.

comet's tame we will reproduce the vast tail. Of the comet. It is a

:48:23.:48:30.

risky mission, but if we knew it we wouldn't have to do it. It has huge

:48:31.:48:34.

solar panels and you are flying in windy dons and constant -- windy

:48:35.:48:39.

conditions, so constantly being forced away from the comet. With the

:48:40.:48:43.

mission about to enter its most critical phase, after more than a

:48:44.:48:46.

decade's work for many of the team, there is a palpable sense of

:48:47.:48:51.

excitement amongst astronomers across Europe and at Mission

:48:52.:48:54.

Control. For sure it is one of the most challenging space missions

:48:55.:48:58.

ever. Nobody has ever gone to such an irregular body or active body

:48:59.:49:04.

with the need of such a high accuracy of flying a spacecraft

:49:05.:49:07.

around the body. It is new and unique in the history of space

:49:08.:49:18.

flight. It is fantastic. That's all we have time for, good night.

:49:19.:49:24.