20/08/2014 Newsnight


20/08/2014

The stories behind the day's headlines. Including British jihadis, a view from the frontline in Iraq, lessons from the LA race riots and Tolstoy's unhappy family.


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The voice of Islamic State has a British accent.

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As a Government cover you have been at the forefront of aggression

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towards Islamic State. You have plotted against us and we have had

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to go out of our way to find ways to defend ourselves.

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a British accent. The American journalist beheaded

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thousands of miles away was killed, it seems,

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by a Jihadi from our streets. His fellow British extremist

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tells us as far as he's concerned, executions of Americans and Britons

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are fair game. The murder's brought David Cameron

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home early from holiday - with a promise to stop British

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extremists travelling abroad. But how else should we react?

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Kurdish forces struggle to push the extremists back.

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We're on Northern Iraq's front line, as thousands of refugees

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flee for their lives. leaving loved

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ones to an uncertain fate. It's all too familiar - as the

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unrest in Missouri continues, what can they learn from Los Angeles,

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torn apart by riots in 1992? "Each unhappy family is unhappy

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in its own way" - the wife of the author

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of those words is about to make her publishing

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debut, 100 years late. We'll debate the hidden talent in

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those tortured artistic marriages. Good evening. The accent betrays it

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- James Foley's killer was not from the lands he claims to defend, but

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appears to have been from Britain. His clear, fanatical willingness to

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murder an innocent man, a contrast perhaps to Iraq and the West's

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stuttering attempts to defeat Islamic State.

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Foley's eerily calm, forced delivery of a message that

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blamed his own country for his fate, followed by, as you're about to

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hear, the cold words of his killer, addressed directly to Barack Obama.

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Today, your military air force is attacking us daily in Iraq. Your

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strikes have caused casualties amongst Muslims.

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The American had been working as a freelance journalist

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when he was kidnapped in Syria in 2012. Earlier today, his family

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spoke of their pride in him. We know Jimmy is free, finally free,

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and we know he is in God's hands. We know he is... Doing God's work

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and we know he is in heaven. The killing

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has been condemned across the West, but the vexed question, how to

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respond? Tonight, the United States has continued its air strikes

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against Islamic State in Iraq and vowed to carry out more in an

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attempt to buttress Kurdish forces in the North. President Obama said

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America would continue "to do what we must do".

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Friends and allies around the world, we share a

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common security and a common set of values that are rooted in the

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opposite of what we saw yesterday and we will continue to confront

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this hateful terrorism and replace it with a sense of hope and

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civility. That is what Jim Foley stood for.

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Here, David Cameron cut short his holiday, returning to

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Downing Street to hold emergency meetings. His challenge, though, is

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not just what to do in Iraq but how to start extremism starting at home

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and then spreading throughout the world. This battle we face against

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Islamist extremism, not the religion of Islam, but a poisonous,

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extremist, violence narrative, is a generational struggle.

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It's a battle we have to fight in our own country,

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it's a battle that with allies, using everything

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we have, our aid, our diplomacy and, yes, on occasions, our military

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prowess, but we have to fight, whether it is dealing with this

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problem in Somalia, in Mali, in Afghanistan, in Iraq and Syria.

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Richard Watson is here, he has studied British extremists for many

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years. Can we be sure this man is British? It looks that way, we can't

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be absolutely certain that even a casual observation of the video

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suggests his voices from London, perhaps. We won't know until they

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actually confirm that, of course, so we could have a British citizen

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murdering, in cold blood, an American citizen. How will the

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police and security services go about trying to identify him? There

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are two things they will be doing right now. The first is voice

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recognition, trawling through using supercomputers on both sides of the

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Atlantic, thousands of voices on file. That does assume they have

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something on file to compare the video to. This brings up the

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question of whether this person has some intelligence trace whether they

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are a clean skin. In all likelihood, they will have some kind of

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intelligence trace and identification won't be that

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difficult. The striking thing, as you suggest, is we potentially have

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a British citizen killing an American citizen and as David

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Cameron is suggesting, the implication for the threat here. How

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big is it? It is very significant. I spoke to one Jihadi contact, who

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knows the scene quite well under Al-Qaeda and says it is very much

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more dangerous than the situation when Al-Qaeda was the principal

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threat. This new threat is much more significant. The current analysis

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from the Security service is that a friend about 500 people are assessed

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to have travelled and to Syria to join the most extreme elements, ISIS

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and the most extreme elements of the spectrum. My sources are telling me

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that 260 of those people have returned to the UK already. 260 are

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already back here? Already back in the UK, which represent a very large

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potential threat to the UK and that is being taken very seriously.

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Although it is true to say that the vast majority of those people

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weren't wished to attack Britain, it is certainly possible that some will

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have that aspiration in mind -- will not wish to attack Britain. Richard,

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thank you very much indeed. Afghanistan, in Iraq and Syria.

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The identity of the man is not yet clear. But what do we know about the

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mindset that would lead a young man or woman not just to believe in the

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IS cause, but to travel to the dangerous region, and be ready

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to fight and kill? Secunder Kermani's

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Been in contact with a British man to that cause.

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Who is this man question mark yesterday, we saw him kill

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journalist John Foley. His action, condemned by many, have been praised

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by members of the group Islamic State. I have been speaking to two

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British Jihadis fighting in Britain today about their reaction to the

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video. Despite evidence to the contrary, they both believed Foley

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was an American soldier, not a journalist. I have been speaking to

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one of the men for around three months by instant message services.

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He has given me an insight into the mentality of the British men

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fighting alongside the group Islamic State. His name references are dead

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Iraqi cleric, but he is a British man part of the Islamic State

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advance toward Aleppo, shot and injured last week. He says he went

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to Syria to fight the asset atrocities and eventually joined the

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Islamic State. It was the only group fighting for the return of the

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Khalifa. The other groups claimed to be Islamic, but actions proved

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otherwise. After capturing towns around Aleppo last week, Islamic

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State fighters allegedly beheaded groups of other fighters. I asked if

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it was true. Yes, we kind of beheaded some guys as well. I

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believe there were maybe three or four guys that we beheaded. There

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may have been more, but I am not aware of them, I am aware of the

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three or four guys we beheaded and put their heads, as usual, in the

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middle of the town centre. The reason for putting them in the town

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centre is to demoralise or cause fear in the hearts of the spies who

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are amongst us, because we know there are a lot of spies amongst us.

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Islamic states say they killed Foley in response to US air strikes

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against the group in Iraq. Before those strikes had even taken place,

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I asked despite what the response would be to any American action

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against them. His answers, at times, sounded like pure propaganda. Bring

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your soldiers, new American soldiers. Your British soldiers,

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bring them to ISIS. We will send them back one by one as corpses.

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Also, America does not need to attack ISIS in Iraq for us to attack

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them back. America started the war against Muslims along time ago. So

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even if American troops do not come on our soil, we will come to an

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American soil to slaughter your soldiers, the way you have

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slaughtered our brothers and sisters. I asked him about other

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atrocities committed by Islamic State, like the mass executions of

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captured Shia soldiers in Iraq. It is principle, it is people that

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oppressors. They had tortured our brothers and sisters in prison. It

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is permissible for us to execute them just as it is permissible for

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our brothers in the UK to execute returning soldiers from Iraq and

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Afghanistan. It is permissible. This touches on one of the main fear is

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articulated by the security services, but British fighters in

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Syria could return to launch an attack here. I hate the UK. The only

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reason I would intend to return back to the UK is because I want to go

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and plant a bomb somewhere. Of the answers are shocking, but in

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contrast to his angry and violent tone, for much of our interaction,

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he was softly spoken. I asked him what led him down this radical path.

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To be honest with you, I was living the life of the opposite Pat, I

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would doss around so much and I started questioning, what am I

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doing? Feeling like a lost sheep in this world, I started to question

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what I was doing. So how do we confront that kind of

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belief, here or in the United States. Doctor Janine Davidson, who

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worked in Obama's defence, is with this,

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Kermani's and Afzal Ashraf, fellow at RUSI.

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and firstly, how do you react to hearing a young man talk so

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callously and coldly and placing some -- no value on human life? It

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is an old narrative, it is not new. It has been there for the last ten

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or 15 years, since Al-Qaeda came on the scene, and what they do to

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justify this callous behaviour is they say the West has conducted

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operations against us with that sort of coldness and callous attitude. Of

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course, it is wrong, but that is how they justify their lack of

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compassion. But how do we confronted when it does have a truly shocking

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flavour of no regard at all for human life or the safety of other

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people? There are lots of things to do to confront it. I think the Prime

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Minister mention many of the things being done, the intelligence

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services are working very hard, they do a lot of work which they cannot

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reveal, to counter this sort of thing. There are counter

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radicalisation initiatives in many communities, but the one thing that

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will definitely confront it is the concept of success. They believe

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they are going to succeed. What we need to do is show that they are not

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going to succeed. Al-Qaeda, ten years ago, started with a very

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similar narrative. It has failed. This organisation has come out of

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Al-Qaeda's failure and what they are now experiencing, the reason for

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this video yesterday, was simply because they are beginning to feel

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that they are failing. They now have the Peshmerga on the doorstep of

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their capital, Mosul. Doctor Janine Davidson, does this look like the

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start of the Islamic State failure to you? Well, I do think that the

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acts that we have seen in the last day, the tragic beheading,

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demonstrates the barbaric behaviour of this group on the one hand. On

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the other hand, it does, I think, demonstrate a little bit of

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desperation, but they are resorting to something like this, it

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demonstrates that they don't have as many options as they think they

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have. John McCain, for example, tonight is suggesting they should be

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a significant increase in the American response and there will be

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many citizens right around the world look at this video and say, yes, it

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is now time for something much more drastic than supporting Kurdish

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forces in northern Iraq. What would you do? Well, I do think that we

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need a measured and a strong response, we need to continue to

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build on this is an act of desperation, kind of what I am

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saying is the air strikes and the coordinated efforts with the Iraqi

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army and Kurdish forces have clearly pushed them back on their heels a

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little bit. If we were to say, OK, good enough, we did the humanitarian

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thing and pushed them back from the Mosul dam, they will come back,

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definitely. They're recruiting is enormous, there are people flocking

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to their sanctuary in Syria to join this group. As long as this group

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appears to be succeeding, they will continue to attract recruits and

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continue to attract groups like those in Indonesia who, in the last

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couple of weeks, have both said they are going to affiliate with the IS

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group. Set in concrete terms, what should we do? There is talk in

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Washington of hundreds of extra troops going to Baghdad. In the long

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term, the regional actors need to reject this ideology. We need a

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multi regional effort. If we do not consolidate our tactical military

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efforts, then we are not going to succeed. What really needs to

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happen, unfortunately we have to admit that this is a group that is

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on the verge of becoming a terrorist army capability wise, that operates

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across the boundaries between Syria and Iraq. We consider those two

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things separate conflicts. But if we are going to roll back their

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momentum, we have got to get to the sanctuaries in Syria. I would

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recommend we need to take out their training camps there. In terms of

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David Cameron's ambition, he says he wants to defeat IS. The difficulty

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is that similar ideologies have been around for more than a decade and we

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have heard these kinds of things before. We have urged regional

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actors to work more closely together. Is it realistic per David

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Cameron to say we should defeat IS? It is a realistic expectation. The

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reason IS exist is because Al-Qaeda failed. The forerunner of IS

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affiliated with Al-Qaeda in 2004. It does not matter to most people what

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it is called. What matters is what is actually happening on the ground?

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You are right. But the point is for them to succeed they have got to

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become more shocking, more appalling and more exclusive. What they have

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now done is they are at war with everybody around them. This video is

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shocking to us in London and Washington. There have been other

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videos, hundreds of videos, of beheadings of shears, Sunnis etc.

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They are killing everybody around them. They do not trust even their

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own. They are paranoid about spies. This is an organisation that is

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imploding ideological. Thank you both.

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While the killing of an American cranks up the pressure on the west

:17:31.:17:35.

to intensify their response, Islamic state continues its push across

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parts of the Middle East, killing Christians and Muslims. Swathes of

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people fleeing their homes. We have been to northern Iraq, or 200,000

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refugees have arrived in the past few weeks, in search of safety.

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How can a country have a future when it is losing its next generation? At

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this refugee camp, children are chanting, no Iraq, no Iraq! At camps

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across the region every day hundreds of desperate and exhausted Iraqis

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arriving to flee IS militants. In searing heat of more than 50

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degrees, they wait, unsure of what will come next. The Yazidi minority

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group had felt the full force of IS militants. Many of the survivors are

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separated from their families. They tell of relatives kidnapped and sold

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into slavery. Refugees are spilling out into every corner of this city.

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This ancient religious sect have lived in northern Iraq for thousands

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of years. Now advancing Islamic State fighters have told them to

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convert to Islam or die. In an abandoned building, they remember

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one of their dead. This 19-year-old man was killed at a

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checkpoint as his family fled their home. The family were separated when

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they came under attack. Your sister is still missing?

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The family have searched along the Syrian border and surrounding

:20:09.:20:19.

villages. But they fear kidnapped by Islamic State militants. Her

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father's family have lived in the region for generations. A face the

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prospect of never being able to return.

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-- they face the prospect. 30 Minutes Drive away, they took me

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to meet their sister-in-law, injured in the firefight. She showed me her

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wounds. She is still waiting for treatment.

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The bullets have not been removed. But it is not just the Yazidis who

:21:29.:21:52.

have been persecuted. The Christians, and other minority group

:21:53.:21:55.

who have lived in Iraq for 2000 years, are also now internally

:21:56.:21:59.

displaced people, driven from their homes. For a local volunteers, the

:22:00.:22:10.

challenge is enormous. The local population is around

:22:11.:22:14.

13,000. We have about 25,000 refugees. Health care is very

:22:15.:22:22.

difficult. There are too many people without enough health care.

:22:23.:22:30.

There is anger here. The Yazidi is in particular feel abandoned and

:22:31.:22:34.

betrayed. Much of their anger is directed towards the Kurdish

:22:35.:22:41.

military, the Peshmerga. Those people have been prompted by

:22:42.:22:45.

Peshmerga. They will defend him. They will be there until the end of

:22:46.:22:51.

their life. They do not believe what has happened because the Peshmerga

:22:52.:22:56.

left the area. Like many Iraqis, these people feel the country holds

:22:57.:23:02.

no future for them. Ali's mother and sister were kidnapped as they

:23:03.:23:07.

attempted to flee to Mount Sinjar. I hear something maybe you did not

:23:08.:23:14.

hear. They are selling my sister and mother. The other people they called

:23:15.:23:25.

me. $600. No like Iraq. We don't like. It is a sentiment echoed

:23:26.:23:32.

across the region. 100 miles north-west, the Peshmerga are

:23:33.:23:35.

attempting to push back the IS advance. In the last four weeks,

:23:36.:23:42.

this Brigadier and his soldiers every taken three nearby villages

:23:43.:23:49.

from IS fighters. It is a constant challenge holding them back. This is

:23:50.:23:53.

the front line. We cannot go beyond this point. IS militants are just

:23:54.:23:59.

two kilometres away. These Kurdish forces are the only ones fighting

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IS. What are they fighting for? No longer a united Iraq. Their fight is

:24:07.:24:09.

for their own state, an independent Kurdistan.

:24:10.:24:27.

But if there were to arise here, are you satisfied your men would be able

:24:28.:24:32.

to defend this area? -- arrive. He rejects accusations the Peshmerga

:24:33.:24:48.

did little to against IS brutality.

:24:49.:25:01.

-- the Yazidis. Many villages like this are now

:25:02.:25:26.

usually quiet. Abandoned. Even if they could, people do not want to

:25:27.:25:30.

return. Their homes have become the front line in the war against IS.

:25:31.:25:33.

return. Their homes have become the threat from militants, Iraq is on

:25:34.:25:41.

the brink of becoming a failed state. Is -- it's ever deepening

:25:42.:25:47.

social divisions and sectarian violence around doing the very

:25:48.:25:52.

fabric of this nation. Another night, another set of

:25:53.:25:56.

clashes between young people on the streets of an American suburb and

:25:57.:26:02.

the police. The American Attorney General travelled to Ferguson,

:26:03.:26:06.

Missouri today, to try to soothe tensions between the two site after

:26:07.:26:10.

an 18-year-old was shot dead by an officer of more than a week ago.

:26:11.:26:15.

Stand-offs between police and African-American protestors are not

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new. " -- how can communities move on? Alastair Leithead has been to

:26:20.:26:25.

Los Angeles to find the lessons of the 1992 race riots.

:26:26.:26:32.

We are getting words this evening of rock-throwing by youths in South

:26:33.:26:38.

Central Los Angeles. It follows the Rodney King beating.

:26:39.:26:40.

Central Los Angeles. It follows the Central, Los Angeles. Riots,

:26:41.:26:44.

violence and looting spread across the city. The Los Angeles Police

:26:45.:26:49.

Department was institutionally racist. Police brutality was

:26:50.:26:54.

endemic. The beating of Rodney King was the proof on video tape of an

:26:55.:27:00.

everyday reality. For years people had a grievance about what they call

:27:01.:27:06.

police abuse. And they either complained about it or didn't

:27:07.:27:12.

complain about it, but they never saw that it was resolved or

:27:13.:27:16.

believable. What Rodney King did on video tape validated every abuse

:27:17.:27:21.

complaint that people ever had. They were able to point at it and say,

:27:22.:27:27.

that happened to me. When the policemen responsible were

:27:28.:27:30.

acquitted, the city exploded. Dozens died in six days of violence. They

:27:31.:27:38.

say the same thing in Ferguson, Missouri today. But just two days

:27:39.:27:44.

after Michael Brown was killed in Ferguson, a 24-year-old unarmed

:27:45.:27:48.

African American man was shot dead in LA. The protests over his killing

:27:49.:27:53.

have not been as big in LA. The protests over his killing

:27:54.:27:56.

There has been little media attention.

:27:57.:28:01.

He was in his own little world. He was special. He had special needs.

:28:02.:28:06.

's family say he had learning difficulties. Witnesses say he was

:28:07.:28:09.

lying face down when a police man shot him in the back. The LAPD say

:28:10.:28:14.

there was a struggle as he went for the officer's gone. The community is

:28:15.:28:20.

furious. Crewe we on -- we all want the same

:28:21.:28:27.

thing. For the truth to come out. I know exactly what everybody in this

:28:28.:28:32.

audience once. The LA police chief came to the meeting to hear

:28:33.:28:36.

people's concerns. There were many. Have some respect.

:28:37.:28:45.

My question is when insist copper to be named, indicted and convicted?

:28:46.:28:51.

How many more times are we going to have to come here to hear the same

:28:52.:28:57.

old you know what. There is a huge amount of anger here. But it is a

:28:58.:29:02.

remarkable contrast to the reaction we have seen in Ferguson, Missouri.

:29:03.:29:07.

This is a community meeting, with people able to take the microphone

:29:08.:29:09.

and talk directly to the police chief.

:29:10.:29:14.

It is really important that they understand 20, 25 views ago, we

:29:15.:29:19.

would not have had this conversation. There would have been

:29:20.:29:23.

an enormous amount of antipathy. The community would not have trusted us

:29:24.:29:28.

to come to this forum. A great deal date change in the wake of the LA

:29:29.:29:33.

riots. The LA police chief resigned. More black and Hispanic officers

:29:34.:29:38.

were recruited. Ties with the team unity improved. There is still

:29:39.:29:42.

tension. Daniel Solomon believes the police need to be more closely

:29:43.:29:52.

monitored. This is how he does it. I record the police, try to hold them

:29:53.:29:55.

accountable, restore some transparency and try and keep them

:29:56.:30:02.

behaving themselves. Daniel filmed the protests. He thinks everybody

:30:03.:30:07.

should record the police. Police in a lot of areas are out of control

:30:08.:30:11.

and I am trying to encourage the people to take out their cameras,

:30:12.:30:15.

recorder police and keep them accountable. The immediate question

:30:16.:30:20.

is how to quickly bring to an end the violence in Ferguson, Missouri.

:30:21.:30:25.

In LA, they used the National Guard and overwhelming force. The lesson

:30:26.:30:29.

learned is that the long-term solution takes many, many years of

:30:30.:30:32.

rebuilding trust and a real determination to change. With me

:30:33.:30:40.

from Washington, DC is the civil rights leader Jesse Jackson and from

:30:41.:30:46.

New York, the former head of the NYPD, Carnation Bernard Kerik. Mr

:30:47.:30:52.

Jackson, you will remember the LA riots and you have been to Ferguson.

:30:53.:30:57.

How can that community move on? I cannot hear you well. We will sort

:30:58.:31:07.

that divine out. -- at line-out. I can hear you know. Excellent, I will

:31:08.:31:12.

ask again. You will remember the LA riots very well and you have

:31:13.:31:15.

travelled to Ferguson. How can the community move on and break the

:31:16.:31:18.

stand-off between the two sides? When you have mistrust and

:31:19.:31:24.

discontent, people feeling abandoned, it becomes like dry

:31:25.:31:30.

chips. Then some spark of brutality triggers the explosion and you look

:31:31.:31:40.

at the coroner's report from 50 or 60 years ago, from New York, to

:31:41.:31:45.

Detroit, to LA, it was always the spark that unleashed the fury. In

:31:46.:31:49.

Ferguson, you have overwhelming and excessive force reacting to a

:31:50.:31:54.

policeman who shot a boy in broad daylight and killed him, shot him

:31:55.:32:00.

six times, and so far he has not even been a suspect, let alone being

:32:01.:32:10.

charged, which compounds the sense of defiance. You say the police in

:32:11.:32:15.

Ferguson have used excessive force during the protest. Are they not

:32:16.:32:18.

just trying to ensure the safety of the community there? It is excessive

:32:19.:32:25.

force, to bring out the military tanks and the military armour and

:32:26.:32:31.

the gas masks, that was unnecessary. It was sort of embarrassing, they

:32:32.:32:36.

swept everybody, including journalists, and the next night,

:32:37.:32:41.

they pulled everybody out, so there was no protection at all, the next

:32:42.:32:45.

date was a curfew. It looks like the police did not know what they were

:32:46.:32:56.

doing. They have a record. 6% of the police force are African-American,

:32:57.:33:01.

there is a cultural divide and it is creating hostilities. This is, I

:33:02.:33:10.

might add, that Ferguson is going to be a metaphor for urban America, and

:33:11.:33:16.

unless there is a more comprehensive policy to deal with unemployment and

:33:17.:33:20.

police relations, it could spread open. Bernard Kerik, Jesse Jackson

:33:21.:33:28.

is blaming excessive police force. He said it has been the equivalent

:33:29.:33:34.

of martial law, do you accept that? Not necessarily. I have been vocal

:33:35.:33:38.

on this, I disagreed with the police response on the first night. You

:33:39.:33:43.

have unarmed protesters who were obviously unarmed, protesting

:33:44.:33:48.

peacefully, and you had a response with semiautomatic weapons aimed at

:33:49.:33:55.

some of these people, the tactical gear that was being used and brought

:33:56.:34:01.

out publicly, I think that incited a lot of people in the community. I

:34:02.:34:06.

think it really did a disservice to the situation. However, we have seen

:34:07.:34:13.

since where there has been gunfire in the crowd, Molotov cocktails

:34:14.:34:17.

thrown, there has been enormous public and private property

:34:18.:34:21.

destruction by the protesters. Well, we live in a society where you have

:34:22.:34:24.

to be held accountable and the police have to respond to force with

:34:25.:34:30.

force, and I think that is what they have done. Reverend Jackson, they

:34:31.:34:33.

have to respond, they have no choice? Well, what is driving the

:34:34.:34:41.

gangster? It is that this young man was shot and for seven days, they

:34:42.:34:45.

concealed the name of the policeman who shot him in broad daylight and

:34:46.:34:49.

then, before they released the name, they released a tape of a robbery

:34:50.:34:54.

that had nothing to do with him being shot, because he was shot down

:34:55.:35:00.

the street later, not as a suspect, but walking across the street in his

:35:01.:35:03.

own neighbourhood. People saw that as an attempt to discredit the dead

:35:04.:35:07.

man and give some privilege to the killer cop. Then two days later,

:35:08.:35:14.

there has still been no apology, no contrition, no sense of reaching

:35:15.:35:20.

out, it has all been by the police department, defensive. I think they

:35:21.:35:23.

have botched an opportunity, people black and white want to come

:35:24.:35:27.

together but I have seen in this instance, bad policing. Commissioner

:35:28.:35:33.

Bernard Kerik, beyond the incompetence you have both suggested

:35:34.:35:35.

in those first days of this protest, what should the police do

:35:36.:35:41.

in a situation like this? You have experience of leading the NYPD

:35:42.:35:47.

during a uniquely anxious time in New York at the 9/11, how should the

:35:48.:35:51.

police approach such times public anxiety? First and foremost, I think

:35:52.:35:57.

that they have to be more public and they have to communicate more with

:35:58.:36:02.

the community. I didn't see the governor had publicly until I think

:36:03.:36:07.

the third or fourth day, but it may have been longer -- out publicly.

:36:08.:36:11.

They should be holding daily press conferences, talking to the

:36:12.:36:15.

community daily, interacting with the community daily, but I want to

:36:16.:36:18.

go back to one thing the Reverend talked about and that is the officer

:36:19.:36:23.

that was involved in the shooting. I have to stress to the people

:36:24.:36:27.

watching the show, there is a due process in this country. We live by

:36:28.:36:33.

the Constitution. People are calling for justice, well let justice be

:36:34.:36:38.

done with the process taking place and then let a grand jury decide

:36:39.:36:43.

whether this person is guilty. We have crucified him, the media, the

:36:44.:36:50.

politicians have crucified this officer, some people calling him a

:36:51.:36:55.

murderer. That has not been determined yet. There is a process

:36:56.:36:58.

we should follow, there are laws that have to be followed, there is

:36:59.:37:02.

an investigation that has been thoroughly conducted by the local

:37:03.:37:07.

state and federal authorities. Let them and a grand jury make the

:37:08.:37:10.

determination on what happened and not these political pundits, not the

:37:11.:37:15.

general public, not the critics. Let the process take its place, that is

:37:16.:37:19.

the law of this country. Reverend Jackson? Michael Brown was denied

:37:20.:37:26.

due process, the police was a judge, jury and executioner. He was

:37:27.:37:33.

unarmed, 18 years old, in his own neighbourhood and there was no need

:37:34.:37:37.

to shoot him down and leave him lying in the street, rotting like a

:37:38.:37:43.

dog. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what happened, Reverend Jackson,

:37:44.:37:47.

would it not at this moment in time be right for people to see

:37:48.:37:51.

leadership? Would it not have been helpful for the president, not the

:37:52.:37:55.

Attorney General, the first African-American president, to go to

:37:56.:38:01.

Ferguson and appeal for calm? I think absence is the quiet -- do not

:38:02.:38:12.

need absence in -- quietness in the absence of noise. I would like to

:38:13.:38:18.

think that police Department is getting federal funds, I do not

:38:19.:38:22.

think they should get any because they do not read the standards for

:38:23.:38:32.

gender and race equality. The situation is simply volatile. I hope

:38:33.:38:35.

we will calm the fears of all the people involved, I regret there has

:38:36.:38:41.

been the tear gas as well as the Molotov cocktails, but I think the

:38:42.:38:46.

police chiefs' lack of civility has been a big factor in driving things

:38:47.:38:51.

out of control. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time, we must

:38:52.:38:57.

leave it there. Now, you know something special happens in

:38:58.:39:00.

Edinburgh this time of year but this time tomorrow, something rather

:39:01.:39:04.

special is happening on Newsnight. Here is Kirsty.

:39:05.:39:08.

Tomorrow night, we live from the Edinburgh Festival, and four weeks

:39:09.:39:11.

from the vote, the referendum is everywhere, in stand-up comedy, on

:39:12.:39:16.

the street, taxis, and even politicians on soapboxes. Join us

:39:17.:39:20.

with special guests including Rory Bremner, Simon Callow and a host of

:39:21.:39:23.

others, when we put the referendum centrestage.

:39:24.:39:25.

and Afzal Ashraf, fellow at RUSI. Behind every great man, there's a

:39:26.:39:31.

great... Well, you know how the saying

:39:32.:39:33.

goes. One of the greatest writers may indeed have had a great rival

:39:34.:39:37.

behind him - well, at least in his household. In fact, in his own

:39:38.:39:40.

stormy marriage. This is the Tolstoy we've all heard of.

:39:41.:39:47.

I am seized by an oppressive doubt. Where in this tale is the evil that

:39:48.:39:55.

should be avoided and where is the good that should be imitated? Who is

:39:56.:39:59.

the villain and who is the story of the late hero of the story -- the

:40:00.:40:06.

hero of the story? All are good and all are bad.

:40:07.:40:10.

we've all heard of. But the woman who shared his life

:40:11.:40:13.

and bore him 13 children, Sophia Tolstoy, is now to have her own

:40:14.:40:15.

work in print. Her own work Has been sitting in dusty Russian

:40:16.:40:27.

archives for over a century. How many other writers have been lost in

:40:28.:40:30.

time in the Shadow of their other halves? If Tolstoy's wife was one of

:40:31.:40:40.

them, who else has been a completely forgotten other half? I wouldn't say

:40:41.:40:45.

completely forgotten, because we are starting to resurrect the

:40:46.:40:48.

reputations of a lot of people, including the wife of the composer

:40:49.:40:54.

Schumann. We also think of a number of people who are in the public eye,

:40:55.:41:00.

who have always been in the public eye, part of the canon of British

:41:01.:41:05.

literature, for example, so Mary Shelley, married to Percy Shelley.

:41:06.:41:09.

The Brownings. They weren't always hiding behind the male Shadow. But

:41:10.:41:15.

if they were people we have sort of heard of, are there still great

:41:16.:41:21.

artists and writers who are somehow being completely hidden or

:41:22.:41:24.

overshadowed by their more famous other halves? Absolutely, it goes

:41:25.:41:31.

without saying but I think there are a lot of artists and writers and

:41:32.:41:35.

historical figures who were men who we are not looking at because we are

:41:36.:41:39.

so obsessed with icons, and so obsessed with re-examining the light

:41:40.:41:44.

of the same people over and over again. Annie, you are a painter, why

:41:45.:41:50.

do you think this happens? Is it possible sometimes in a relationship

:41:51.:41:52.

where there is somebody who we might call a genius or a great talent,

:41:53.:41:56.

there is just not room for anybody else? I think there is a real

:41:57.:42:06.

tradition of believing that creative genius is a specifically male thing

:42:07.:42:09.

and the woman's role is very much the Muse, the supporter. But

:42:10.:42:15.

actually, in history, if you look back, write to the 16th century,

:42:16.:42:19.

there were very successful female artists, who in that they were

:42:20.:42:24.

hugely famous and celebrated, and, in fact, more famous than a lot of

:42:25.:42:32.

the men. But I think the way history has been recorded, unfortunately,

:42:33.:42:35.

there just has not been the interest in them since their death and like

:42:36.:42:40.

Hallie said, there is the institutional reinforcement of the

:42:41.:42:46.

idea, with us constantly seeing exhibitions of Impressionists, but

:42:47.:42:49.

they don't include the women impressionists, to the point where

:42:50.:42:52.

you read about them and can't believe you don't know about them,

:42:53.:42:56.

because you have seen so many exhibitions. In terms of artistic

:42:57.:43:01.

talent, is that anything beyond what we would normally experience because

:43:02.:43:05.

of the vagaries of history? Whether in politics, science or other

:43:06.:43:09.

fields? Because men had public roles while women largely didn't, they

:43:10.:43:13.

were largely hidden. Is it different in art, even today? I think there

:43:14.:43:24.

are lots of couples today that, interestingly, if you look at the

:43:25.:43:27.

women, you still get this kind of accusation that the woman is somehow

:43:28.:43:34.

feeding off the fame of the other half, but interestingly, if you look

:43:35.:43:41.

at male couples, for example Jasper Johns and Rauschenberg, they are

:43:42.:43:45.

both seen as successful artists, or Gilbert and George, so that is an

:43:46.:43:51.

interesting difference. Hallie, do the less famous other halves, do

:43:52.:43:57.

they deserve to get discovered or is it easy to blame their lack of

:43:58.:44:01.

success on their gigantically famous spouse? I think sometimes they do

:44:02.:44:06.

and there are a number of people who are overshadowed who we don't know

:44:07.:44:09.

about. We know about Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who was a famous

:44:10.:44:14.

playwright and MP, but we don't know about Lindy, who was a fantastic

:44:15.:44:20.

soprano, who was his wife, who he did not want to perform after she

:44:21.:44:25.

married him. He sabotaged her career? He did. There was an artist,

:44:26.:44:30.

and impressionist woman, whose husband sabotaged her career, not

:44:31.:44:36.

because he did not want her to be an artist but because he was

:44:37.:44:41.

anti-Impressionism. So from a point of principle rather than envy or

:44:42.:44:44.

wanting her to disappear. Do you think it still happens now, this

:44:45.:44:45.

kind of challenge? think it still happens now, this

:44:46.:44:54.

now. I doubt many women would put up with it. The women I

:44:55.:44:58.

now. I doubt many women would put up artists who go out

:44:59.:45:00.

now. I doubt many women would put up artists, I can't imagine any of them

:45:01.:45:02.

putting up with this kind of sabotaged. I think it is a very

:45:03.:45:09.

different situation now. I think you are absolutely right, women wouldn't

:45:10.:45:14.

put up with it necessarily but in the past, women were expected to

:45:15.:45:19.

take a back-seat. They were expected to help their shine. Even somebody

:45:20.:45:26.

like Schumann, she supported her husband had made sure his work

:45:27.:45:32.

like Schumann, she supported her recognised, playing it in concerts.

:45:33.:45:34.

Sophia Tolstoy was an odd champion of her husband's work. Maybe it is

:45:35.:45:38.

not always about being the Muse, we must leave it there. That is almost

:45:39.:45:43.

it for tonight, but I hope you are ready for this. We leave you with a

:45:44.:45:47.

tribute to the man regarded by many as the father of modern yoga.

:45:48.:45:49.

work in print. Her own work B.K.S. Iyengar has died at the age

:45:50.:45:51.

of 95. He practised yoga for eight decades

:45:52.:45:59.

and could still do a head stand for more than half an hour until just

:46:00.:46:03.

last year. Here he is in more supple form back in 1977, at a sprightly 59

:46:04.:46:06.

years old. Good night.

:46:07.:46:09.

The stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg. Including British jihadis, a view from the frontline in Iraq, lessons from the LA race riots and Tolstoy's unhappy family.


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