27/08/2014 Newsnight


27/08/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.


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The man in charge of children's welfare in Rotherham faces calls for

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him to quit. Are we all in denial of how many young people are brutally

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exploited for sex in other towns too. We knew that she had absconded

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before and she was having relationships with older men who

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threatened violence. We knew all this and for seven days we did

:00:28.:00:33.

nothing. This is unbelievably ?3,000 worth of drugs that I take every

:00:34.:00:37.

morning. Has the Government had enough of paying for those expensive

:00:38.:00:42.

drugs. Newsnight learns some pricey medicines could be axed. Does

:00:43.:00:47.

America's right to bear arms include nine-year-olds. We speak to someone

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who believes it does. Ever feel lost and unconnected? In a broadband

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wilderness. The wireless revolution is just beginning, so TV white space

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is giving us more spectrum and more availability to communicate. Good

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evening, stubborn doesn't really begin to cover it. The man who was

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in charge of Children's Services in Rotherham while warnings of abuse

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were ignored refuses to leave his current post. That's despite the

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Home Secretary and his own party, Labour, calling on him to go. It

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says now they will suspend him if he hasn't gone by the morning. But

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tonight Shaun Wright is still responsible for

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tonight Shaun Wright is still Yorkshire. Whatever his future, or

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those of other Yorkshire. Whatever his future, or

:01:42.:01:46.

politicians still in senior positions elsewhere, the more

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politicians still in senior similar abuse may still be happening

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to other children. From Rotherham here is Jim Reed.

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Shaun Wright out! ! And still he won't go, everyone from the English

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Defence League to the Home Secretary was calling for his resignation

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today. But the man in charge of Children's Services for much of the

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last decade is tonight refusing to quit. I'm not resigning as South

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Yorkshire Police commissioner because I'm proud... REPORTER: How

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can people have confidence you in you? People can have confidence if

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you allow me to answer the question, because I can evidence all the

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actions I have taken since I came into this office. It is the scale I

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have a Bews in Rotherham that has shocked this town. 1400 girls over

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16 years. Children as young as 11, raped, traffiked, beaten and

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intimidated. Newsnight has spoken to one man, who until recently worked

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in a child protection role, covering parts of Rotherham. They are without

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doubt, without any shadow of a doubt the most vulnerable people we have

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got in society. When they came forward to contact the authorities,

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whether it is the police or local council, with Tories of sexual abuse

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or evidence of sexual abuse, how seriously were the stories taken?

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There was almost a resigned acceptance that these were the kind

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of issues that were inevitable, given the background, given the

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individual circumstances and the personalities of the children

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involved. But yesterday's report was not the first the authorities had

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heard about street grooming. Three separate reports dating back over

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ten years had already highlighted the problem to council officials and

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the police. In 2003 a drug analyst wrote a report for the council about

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substance abuse, it describes a significant number of girls and some

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boys who were being sexually exploited. Including the case of a

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young girl dowsed in petrol as a thread if she went to the police.

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Three years later a second report from the doctor this time talking

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about an established sexual exploitation scene which was very

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organised and involved systematic physical and sexual violence. I had

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a child who had been missing, a 14-year-old girl, she had been

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missing for seven days, we knew that she was at risk of sexual

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exploitation, that was a given, and we knew that she had absconded

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before and that she was having relationships with older men who had

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threatened violence, we knew all this and for seven days we did

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nothing. But perhaps the most serious example came earlier in

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2001, a young Home Office researcher was told to write a profile of sex

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offenders in Rotherham. This week's independent report talk about how

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that researcher spoke to young women in the town. She described mounting

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frustration at the lack of action by the authorities. One girl had tried

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to escape from the gang abusing her, the researcher took her to the

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police station, where she was too scared to give evidence saying

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simply "you can't protect me", that researcher with permission from her

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manager wrote two letters to senior figures in the police force, she was

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called in for a meeting and simply told never to do this again. The

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contents of the letters were never discussed. When senior council

:05:16.:05:18.

officials and police officers saw a draft of that report the researcher

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was immediately suspended for gross misconduct. From that point on she

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was not allowed to contact any of the girls involved and funding for

:05:27.:05:29.

the project was simply stopped before it could be completed. The

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leader of Rotherham council quit this week as a result of the

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scandal, saying he takes responsibility for what has

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happened. But no other head has rolled and no police or council

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officer has been disciplined. So the spotlight has fallen on one of the

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most visible of those in charge, police and crime commissioners

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cannot be sacked only voted out by the electorate. But Labour have

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raised the stakes this evening saying they will suspend Shaun

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Wright's membership of the party if he hasn't resigned by the morning.

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When the report says the information was there and action should have

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been taken, when leadership fails it is important people take

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responsibility. This evening Shaun Wright is thought to be at home

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consulting with his family about his future. That future looks

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increasingly uncertain. In a moment we will speak to Amjad

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Bashir, the UKIP MEP for Yorkshire and Sheila Taylor of the NWG charity

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which advises professionals on working on child sexual

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exploitation. With us first of all is Jack Dromey the Labour shadow

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minister for policing. Thank you for being with us. As things stand

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tonight Shaun Wright is still a member of your party. Your calls for

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him to go have failed. You are pretty powerless aren't you? He

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should resign, he had are the power to act but he did not use that power

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to defend the powerless, he needs, therefore, to accept responsibility.

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If he does not resign then he will be suspended tomorrow morning. But

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for people watching this in Rotherham, being thrown out,

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temporarily from a political party, it is not exactly tough action on

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him is it? We in the Labour Party will act, but the problem about the

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legislation that was introduced by Theresa May, there is no mechanism

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to force him to stand down. Now that does raise questions for the future.

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But in the here and now we are absolutely clear he has to accept

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responsibility for his abject failure to defend those who were

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being abused by evil men. And we will come on to that in a more

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detail in a second. In future, if you were in Government, would you

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change the rules to make Police Commissioners a new role more

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accountable. In just this circumstance they could be gotten

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rid of if appropriate? What is clear beyond any doubt is the current

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arrangements don't make any sense. I think there will be complete dismay

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in south Yorkshire, he has lost the confidence of the people of south

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Yorkshire, above all he has lost the confidence of the victim. Would you

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change the rules? Necessarily so. Isn't he, however, a proxy in a

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sense of a problem that was clearly admitted today by one of your former

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colleagues, Dennis McShane, the MP for Rotherham for many years. He

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told the BBC that when he was working in the town he didn't want

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to rock the multicultural boat too hard. He said as a true Guardian

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leader and liberal lefty he didn't want to raise it too hard? It is

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important to stress that the great majority of men who abuse children

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are actually white, having said that, were there particular problems

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in Rotherham? Yes there were. And it cannot be right that you ever allow

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the fact that there is an ethnic grouping, an ethnic identity to the

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nature of some of that abuse, not all of it, it cannot get in the way

:08:49.:08:52.

of proper investigation, defending the powerless and calling those

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responsible to account. But what is important here is that a formerly

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prominent Labour politician is fessing up and saying we had a

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problem in the Labour Party, we turned a blind eye because we didn't

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want to rock the boat. Do you accept that? Lessons need to be learned of

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the past. Of that there is no doubt. After the immediate, which is Shaun

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needing to resign, crucially support for the victims and bringing the

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perpetrators before the courts. There has been an announcement for

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Take That that -- that, we pressed for that at the time, that all those

:09:30.:09:34.

with responsibility have a duty to react. Lessons to be learned may be

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overused in these circumstances. Can you be confident that the problem

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identified today by your colleagues that looking the other way to

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protect multiculturalism has disappeared in the Labour Party? We

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should never allow multiculturalism or any other factor to get in the

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way of the investigation of wrongdoing. Has it changed? We need

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to learn lessons from the past because the idea that this is a

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problem of the past, it is an on going problem, on a massive scale of

:10:04.:10:07.

the abuse by men of children. Amjad Bashir, you are the MEP from the

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area and you are Pakistani in origin, we have just lost him, we

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will hope to come back to him shortly. Let's put this to you, this

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specific problem in the Pakistani community in this one town is much

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discussed, do you accept that this was in some sense a racial crime? I

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think there may be elements of racial crime in there, but to me

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anybody who thinks it is OK to have sex with children within our society

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is committing an offence. We need to focus on the criminal activity,

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there is an awful lot of focus on the victims and actually we're not

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looking at how we are going to tackle the perpetrators within our

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society. Is this picture painted so eloquently by Professor Jay in her

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report yesterday of this specific problem in the Pakistani community,

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is that familiar to you? It is familiar to me, but it is not the

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only model that we see. We see lots and lots of ways that sexual

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exploitation manifests itself within society. And there is a very

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specific media focus on the Pakistani Muslim community. That

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doesn't mean to say there isn't an issue there that needs tackling. But

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there is at the same time we can't let that be the only thing we

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tackle. Amjad Bashir I hope can hear us from Leeds now, thank you for

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joining us. You are Pakistani in origin, but a proud Yorkshireman to

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boot, do you acknowledge and your community acknowledge the extent of

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this problem? I think the community does acknowledge that there is a

:11:55.:12:01.

problem. 1400 young, vulnerable girls, over 16 years have been

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exploited, largely by Asian men. It is not acceptable. The community has

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to come forward and accept this and try and make sure this is prevented

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in the future. I have just come away from a meeting with the religious

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leaders who have all condemned this. I think there is a problem out there

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and we have to admit there is a problem and prevent it from ever

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happening again. And do you think that turning a blind eye and that

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this sensitivity around ethnicity essentially let people off the hook

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in Rotherham? I do believe that and I think the deputy leader of

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Rotherham council has been implicated in this. He has been a

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barrier preventing messages from the police getting to the community.

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That's not, that should not be the case. He should be a facilitator

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trying to get communication between the community and preventing these

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paedophiles, these people that were responsible for gang raping and

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taking these girls across the country and selling them on. This is

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not acceptable. He is of course not here tonight to defend himself. But

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Sheila Taylor isn't this precisely part of the problem. You said this

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is only one thing we should consider and there are lots of other factors,

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but clearly as Amjad Bashir suggests, in this situation,

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professionals were just too nervous and professionals maybe with the

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best of intentions were reluctant to look properly at what was going on

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because of the sensitivities around race? Historically we have looked

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back at child sexual exploitation since I have been involved in 1999

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when I got involved that you see professionals really not responding

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appropriately to children that are telling you it is happening to them,

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but they are not being believed, they are not being heard properly

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and they are certainly not being responded to properly. If you think

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about those 1400 children that we have talked about that have been,

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for want of a better word, serially raped over a number of years, what

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have we done to help them to repair and recover from that and they are

:14:16.:14:21.

now in society and if we're not careful we are going to have a

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cohort of people who don't know what a healthy sexual relationship is.

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And on precisely the point of what should happen next, Jack Dromey

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And on precisely the point of what you have confidence as the shadow

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Policing Minister you have confidence as the shadow

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Yorkshire Police to look back at these crimes properly to investigate

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them now properly? That is why there needs to be an independent

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investigation by the IPCC, because all those who fail to act deserve to

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be called to account. Including those in the Police Service, those

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who previously worked for the council as well as of course the

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police and crime commission. Briefly, South Yorkshire Police have

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intimated they will investigate some of these crimes historically, do you

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have confidence in them to do that, particularly as some of the victims

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are considering taking legal action against them. That is a conflict of

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interest isn't it? There will be no confidence in any investigation

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other than it is seen to be independent. Thank you all of you.

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other than it is seen to be The NHS budget is insulated

:15:20.:15:23.

to other Government department, but it is still under significant

:15:24.:15:28.

pressure. Not least from drugs whose prices climb and climb and climb.

:15:29.:15:33.

Newsnight has learned that officials plan to threaten to stop buying some

:15:34.:15:38.

of the most expensive high-tech cancer treatments if the companies

:15:39.:15:41.

that produce them won't cut their prices. The proposals will be

:15:42.:15:45.

revealed tomorrow and they affect the cancer drug fund, a scheme set

:15:46.:15:50.

up in 2010 by David Cameron. With the details we have our policy

:15:51.:15:57.

editor Chris Cook. Concern about the NHS's unwillingness to spend money

:15:58.:16:01.

on expensive cancer drugs is a long-running theme. That is why

:16:02.:16:06.

David Cameron announced the Cancer Drugs Fund back in 2010, an

:16:07.:16:11.

England-only, ?200 million a year specialist pot to pay for drugs that

:16:12.:16:15.

otherwise would be refused for costing too much. Just ask Clive

:16:16.:16:19.

Stone, I met him years ago when we were in opposition. He had cancer

:16:20.:16:25.

and he is said to me the drug he needed was out there but they

:16:26.:16:29.

wouldn't give it to him because it is too expensive. Please, if I get

:16:30.:16:33.

in could I do something about it. We have, a new Cancer Drug Fund that

:16:34.:16:38.

has got the latest drugs to more than 21,000 people and counting.

:16:39.:16:42.

Newsnight has learned that the fund is running overbudget, and officials

:16:43.:16:47.

are expected to announce tomorrow it will be increased from ?200 million

:16:48.:16:52.

a year to ?280 million a year, starting this year. The fund will be

:16:53.:16:56.

subjected to a new cost benefit regime, that will mean the least

:16:57.:17:00.

effective drugs stop being funded and the most expensive drugs will

:17:01.:17:03.

have to prove their worth if they are continued to be funded. Some

:17:04.:17:07.

pharmaceutical companies should expect that they will be told their

:17:08.:17:10.

drugs are too expensive for the drugs fund set up just to payer to

:17:11.:17:16.

the most expensive drugs. This issue all revolves around NICE, the body

:17:17.:17:21.

that decides whether or not the drugs are cost effective enough to

:17:22.:17:29.

be bought by the NHS. They should cost no more than ?30,000 a year for

:17:30.:17:36.

a year of life in good health. The amount they will pay for that is

:17:37.:17:39.

sometimes more when dealing with end of life drugs, even so cancer drugs

:17:40.:17:46.

often just cost way too much. NICE struggles in cancer, that is

:17:47.:17:49.

publicly acknowledged hence the fund, the issue there really is the

:17:50.:17:53.

advent of the new science means we have highly targeted medicines

:17:54.:18:01.

within smaller patient cohorts but fixed R cost, so a drug costing ?1

:18:02.:18:05.

million over a small amount of patients. You have higher headline

:18:06.:18:09.

prices per patient, that is what happened over the course of recent

:18:10.:18:13.

years. This is almost ?3,000 worth of tablets. That is why there is

:18:14.:18:18.

demand for the fund, and some of these medicines really do make big

:18:19.:18:23.

differences. In 2008 I was diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, I was

:18:24.:18:28.

put on to the hormone therapy treatments which are usual in that

:18:29.:18:31.

situation, they carried on through until my levels changed and I was

:18:32.:18:37.

advised by my consultant to go on to something called a new drug at the

:18:38.:18:41.

time. This has allowed me to continue my professional and family

:18:42.:18:46.

life to the full and has allowed me to avoid chemotherapy and any of its

:18:47.:18:50.

effects. This was only possible because of the Cancer Drugs Fund.

:18:51.:18:56.

You if you if the fund lacks rules on cost effectiveness, drug

:18:57.:18:59.

companies can just charge very high prices. And, when you discuss that

:19:00.:19:07.

problem one company comes up a lot. Roche, the Swiss pharmagiant

:19:08.:19:12.

accounts for one quarter of spending. It produces the latest

:19:13.:19:17.

high cost cancer treatment rejected by NICE. It costs ?90,000 a throw

:19:18.:19:23.

for six months of extra life. That gives you a cost per QALY of

:19:24.:19:29.

?166,000, that is several times more than the most generous of NICE

:19:30.:19:34.

limits. Now officials really don't want to delist effective drugs, nor

:19:35.:19:39.

do they want to undermine what is a flagship policy for NHS England. But

:19:40.:19:43.

if they don't have the power to say to drug companies we won't buy at

:19:44.:19:47.

that price, they don't have a negotiating position at all. And

:19:48.:19:51.

with rising numbers of cancer patients, the inability to keep the

:19:52.:19:55.

cost of cancer drugs down is a major concern.

:19:56.:20:03.

This is a tough issue, Roche say NICE's methods aren't fit for

:20:04.:20:06.

Europes, other Companies point pharma out the prices for QALY have

:20:07.:20:12.

not moved with inflation. Many are asking if we should he can empt

:20:13.:20:16.

cancer patients from the NHS cost systems at all.

:20:17.:20:25.

I'm joined by my guests this afternoon. Why is cancer special?

:20:26.:20:31.

Because it affects one in three of us, soon to affect one in two of us.

:20:32.:20:36.

It is something, a disease that has awful implications but in fact we

:20:37.:20:41.

can do a lot, more than 50% of cancer patients are now cured. We

:20:42.:20:44.

have seen a breakthrough in the number of new drugs in the last two

:20:45.:20:49.

years, 25 new drugs, new drugs, all expensive registered for cancer care

:20:50.:20:53.

in Europe. For sufferers, patients and the families of those with other

:20:54.:20:57.

appalling diseases why should they accept that cancer sufferers get

:20:58.:21:02.

prefer relation financial treatment. Do you accept that is what happens?

:21:03.:21:07.

That is what is happening. The NHS pot is limited, however you look at

:21:08.:21:11.

it, the politicians try to bend it but it is limited. If you give more

:21:12.:21:15.

to cancer you are taking it from somewhere else. Nurses don't syringe

:21:16.:21:20.

ears any more simply because there is not the funding for their time to

:21:21.:21:24.

do that. Do you accept that is what we should do? I think the cancer

:21:25.:21:31.

drugs fund is a political stunt in response to shroud-waving by the big

:21:32.:21:37.

response to shroud-waving by thebig big pharma companies. Is it only

:21:38.:21:40.

motivated by political pressure on David Cameron? Yes and the pressure

:21:41.:21:46.

is enormous, it is brought by the companies themselves but also the

:21:47.:21:50.

patient organisations which are often fronts for the companies. It

:21:51.:21:56.

has been alleged that it costs a billion to develop the drug but it

:21:57.:21:59.

has certainly been suggested only a tenth of that is actually the drug

:22:00.:22:04.

development cost, the rest is PR, advertising and marketing. These are

:22:05.:22:07.

big global companies they have clout, they have more power than the

:22:08.:22:10.

Government in lots of ways and the Government has to stand up to it. Is

:22:11.:22:16.

this now the Government standing up to big pharma, what do you make of

:22:17.:22:21.

the idea, why don't they say if you don't lower the prices we won't pay

:22:22.:22:28.

any more? The cancer drug is a great example, they were asked to come

:22:29.:22:32.

back with a lower price and they haven't done so. They are in the

:22:33.:22:35.

press beating each other around the head. The sadness for me as a doctor

:22:36.:22:39.

is when you see the emotional effect on a patient today. A woman maybe

:22:40.:22:48.

who has failed on herceptin and a good candidate for that drug and

:22:49.:22:51.

they have to go through a funding request. To be clear on the

:22:52.:22:55.

proposal, you back the idea of the Government saying unless you put the

:22:56.:22:58.

price down, big powerful drug company, we will not fund this drug

:22:59.:23:01.

at all? I back that, but I think that one has to have an escape

:23:02.:23:06.

clause, so doctors can prescribe a drug that they think will be the

:23:07.:23:08.

best thing for their patient. That is the conflict. And David's right,

:23:09.:23:13.

it is a political stunt. You have got NICE, that is assessor, if the

:23:14.:23:17.

assessor turns it down how can you have a back door in. That is to

:23:18.:23:24.

prevent the politicians losing faith coming up, losing face coming up to

:23:25.:23:27.

an location. Is that the right way to go? It is the only way to go, you

:23:28.:23:31.

have to stick up to to go? It is the only way to go, you

:23:32.:23:34.

companies, they will probably back down in the end. They won't do it

:23:35.:23:39.

easily. It is terrible for patients, of course. But you have to be clear

:23:40.:23:44.

easily. It is terrible for patients, that although cancer survival has

:23:45.:23:46.

improved, many of these new drugs are very marginal improvements.

:23:47.:23:54.

Katsyla the extra life you get compared with standard treatments is

:23:55.:23:57.

an extra six months, that is not very much for ?100,000. The hope is

:23:58.:24:03.

that by understanding the molecular targets of their

:24:04.:24:07.

that by understanding the molecular predict which patients can respond

:24:08.:24:09.

and then everyone will be happy. If the drugs were expensive

:24:10.:24:12.

and then everyone will be happy. If used in patients that would

:24:13.:24:14.

and then everyone will be happy. If I have a patient with lung cancer

:24:15.:24:14.

that has I have a patient with lung cancer

:24:15.:24:18.

years now on a drug that costs ?120,000 a year, but he's in

:24:19.:24:21.

years now on a drug that costs group that will benefit from that

:24:22.:24:25.

drug. We can predict that. Isn't the bigger problem as David suggests

:24:26.:24:30.

that with enormous respect medical professionals like you, the research

:24:31.:24:35.

industry is enormously reliant on the big pharmaceutical companies,

:24:36.:24:37.

unless tax-payers suddenly want to pay an awful

:24:38.:24:40.

unless tax-payers suddenly want to going to have power over

:24:41.:24:41.

Governments? They are, there is no. going to have power over

:24:42.:24:52.

They do, but I think what has happened with Kancycla is an example

:24:53.:24:57.

of standing up to it. They can't sell it half the price in France and

:24:58.:25:00.

twice the price to the NHS, sell it half the price in France and

:25:01.:25:04.

would ship over in Europe, there has to be a way of coming to an

:25:05.:25:08.

agreement, there will be in the next few months. Roche made ?7. 7 billion

:25:09.:25:16.

profit last year, they can afford to reduce the price, they won't,

:25:17.:25:19.

because once they have done it they will be expected to do it again, of

:25:20.:25:22.

course. But they cannot go on living in this style for drugs which don't

:25:23.:25:28.

actually work at all well very many of them. If I was terminally ill and

:25:29.:25:36.

they said if you have this drug for ?100,000, it is difficult to say

:25:37.:25:39.

what you will feel when you are terminally ill, but you can have

:25:40.:25:44.

four months of uncomfortable live extray, I'm not sure that I would

:25:45.:25:49.

say that I was, it was my duty not to bother with it. It is easy to

:25:50.:25:53.

intellectualise when you haven't got cancer, if you have got cancer and I

:25:54.:25:57.

see people every day that have the disease, they want everything, they

:25:58.:26:01.

are desperate, especially younger people with families, two months to

:26:02.:26:04.

them is worth having. And studies have shown that for 1% benefit

:26:05.:26:08.

people will take the drug. If you haven't got cancer it is not so

:26:09.:26:11.

important. But I do take your point about the balance within the health

:26:12.:26:15.

service and drugs. How do we prioritise? Various politicians go

:26:16.:26:19.

with the voters and the voters vote for the NHS and they vote for cancer

:26:20.:26:22.

as the most important worry they have about the NHS. So politicians

:26:23.:26:28.

follow that. Cabs Cancer is terrifying that is the target for

:26:29.:26:33.

the companies. It is also the target for a lot of quacks who immediately

:26:34.:26:39.

surround anyone with cancer wishing to poke them with pins and all sorts

:26:40.:26:45.

of concoctions. We will leave it there thank you very much for

:26:46.:26:47.

joining us. In this country we tend to assume

:26:48.:26:52.

that guns and children don't really mix very well. That seemingly

:26:53.:26:57.

responsible assumption would be regarded pretty strangely by many

:26:58.:27:00.

people across the Atlantic where firearms can be part of family fun.

:27:01.:27:04.

This particular part of the eternal debate over the right to bear arms

:27:05.:27:09.

is back. After a nine-year-old in Arizona shot her instructor dead

:27:10.:27:14.

while she was having a shooting lesson at a firing range, learning

:27:15.:27:20.

how to use an Uzi, a sub-machine gun almost as big as her. We have to

:27:21.:27:24.

keep that held in, otherwise the gun won't fire. A regular day out. For

:27:25.:27:28.

many American families there is nothing unusual to see here. But

:27:29.:27:33.

seconds later this nine-year-old girl lost control of the Uzi

:27:34.:27:40.

sub-machine gun killing her instructor, Charles Vacca. When a

:27:41.:27:44.

nine-year-old gets an Uzi in her hand, the criteria is eight-year-old

:27:45.:27:49.

to shoot firearms, we instruct kids as young as five on 22 rifles they

:27:50.:27:54.

don't get to handle the firearms but they are under supervision of their

:27:55.:28:01.

parents and professional range masters. Six years old! And shooting

:28:02.:28:06.

a fully automatic. For many parents the right to bear arms isn't just

:28:07.:28:10.

important, introducing their children to guns they can barely

:28:11.:28:16.

lift is a rite of passage too. Did you shoot the Uzi? Yeah. That's my

:28:17.:28:22.

boy. These home videos recorded from shooting ranges across the US

:28:23.:28:26.

proudly uploaded by parents for the world to see. But America's less

:28:27.:28:32.

proud of the record of firearms incidents that kill and injure

:28:33.:28:35.

hundreds of children every single year. 100 children were killed in

:28:36.:28:43.

accidental shootings in 2013. More than 800 children under 14 are hurt

:28:44.:28:49.

in nonfatal incidents every year. And 31% of children live in a home

:28:50.:28:55.

with a gun. Will this latest accident and new focus on the

:28:56.:28:59.

thousands of others make any difference in a country where for

:29:00.:29:06.

many owning a gun is a way of life. Finger off the trigger, how did that

:29:07.:29:13.

feel? Pretty good. From Washington we're joined by Gary Pratt from Gun

:29:14.:29:20.

Owners of America, and the President of Washington Ceasefire. Thanks for

:29:21.:29:24.

being with us, can you explain to us in the UK why it is acceptable for a

:29:25.:29:28.

nine-year-old to be given a lesson in how to use an Uzi sub-machine-gun

:29:29.:29:35.

which can fire five bullets a second? I'm sure what preceded that

:29:36.:29:42.

situation, I know that when I have taken my children and they in turn

:29:43.:29:46.

have taken their children shooting we start with the. 22, as the

:29:47.:29:51.

gentleman you interviewed had pointed out. And we point have them

:29:52.:29:56.

graduate to anything until they are ready for it. And that's something

:29:57.:30:01.

that we can determine, they are under our supervision. This goes on

:30:02.:30:06.

not only with individual families but their clubs, some scouting

:30:07.:30:10.

groups provide shooting instruction for young Scouts. So when done

:30:11.:30:16.

properly I think most Americans say that is a good thing. But in

:30:17.:30:22.

principle, whatever the type of gun, how young, at what age is it OK? A

:30:23.:30:27.

seven-year-old, a six-year-old a five-year-old? How young should

:30:28.:30:31.

children be before they are allowed to handle a gun? In my own family's

:30:32.:30:38.

case we have made the determination based on their physical capability,

:30:39.:30:42.

their judgment. It was something that was the parents' call. How old

:30:43.:30:47.

was your youngest child when you gave them a gun for the first time,

:30:48.:30:53.

and your grandchildren even? I would imagine eight or nine years old,

:30:54.:31:00.

same as the girl in this video. Why is that acceptable, it is pretty

:31:01.:31:04.

hard for many people in the UK to understand that Well you are

:31:05.:31:12.

starting with a. 22 which has no recoil, they become familiar

:31:13.:31:15.

whenever they touch the gun, they get ternly lectured about how to use

:31:16.:31:24.

it safely, and we, I think in America, understand that firearms

:31:25.:31:28.

ultimately are nothing personal but why we are no longer British. What

:31:29.:31:33.

do you say to that, it was a tragic accident was it not? It is a tragic

:31:34.:31:38.

but another unnecessarily accident. I think the key thing on this is

:31:39.:31:41.

that this is a military assault weapon, it is an automatic weapon

:31:42.:31:47.

where if you hold your finger on the trigger, bullets will fly, you know

:31:48.:31:52.

at an incredible rate. So it makes absolutely no sense at all, and I

:31:53.:31:57.

think it is indicative that mainstream America is disconnected

:31:58.:32:01.

from the dangers of a gun. Disconnected from the danger of a

:32:02.:32:06.

gun in the home. We know when there is a gun in the home you are

:32:07.:32:11.

22-times more likely to kill family member or friend than an intruder.

:32:12.:32:16.

We have a cultural defect in this country where we can't find that

:32:17.:32:20.

balance between personal freedoms and public safety. Are you

:32:21.:32:24.

suggesting that no child should ever be allowed to handle a firearm, even

:32:25.:32:31.

under supervision? No child should ever be allowed to fire an Uzi with

:32:32.:32:37.

that type of killing power and that type of immediate catastrophe

:32:38.:32:42.

waiting to happen. This is not the first event of its kind, in 2008 an

:32:43.:32:48.

eight-year-old boy in a similar situation in Massachusetts, lost

:32:49.:32:51.

control of an Uzi and he was the one who was killed in it. This weapon is

:32:52.:32:56.

almost eight pounds and can fire in some case, some model, over 1,000

:32:57.:33:01.

bullet as minute. This should just not have happened under any

:33:02.:33:03.

circumstances, what do you make of that? Let's put it into some more

:33:04.:33:08.

perspective, the victim in this episode was at greater risk while he

:33:09.:33:12.

was driving to that range than he was at the range. But cars don't

:33:13.:33:18.

fire bullets, five bullets a second? More people are killed in

:33:19.:33:23.

automobiles, including children. Than by firearms, firearms are not

:33:24.:33:29.

the greatest device connected with people dying. But people need to

:33:30.:33:34.

drive to get to work, they don't need to allow their nine-year-olds

:33:35.:33:40.

to use a gun? We will have our disagreement. People need to have

:33:41.:33:44.

their guns, they are part of our political control of our Government,

:33:45.:33:49.

they are part of our keeping ourselves safe, some 16-times a day

:33:50.:33:56.

more defensive gun use occurs than any kind of death resulting from a

:33:57.:34:01.

firearm. And it is even when you lock at just accidental deaths from

:34:02.:34:07.

firearms compared to automobiles, than defensive gun use something

:34:08.:34:12.

like 32-times. Larry see it is from a different perspective. First of

:34:13.:34:18.

all. That is an understatement. In Washington state now we have more

:34:19.:34:22.

death from gun violence than car accidents. So right now we have

:34:23.:34:28.

about a similar number nationwide of 30,000 from guns and 30,000 deaths

:34:29.:34:34.

from cars, a rate that is about 20-times higher than the average

:34:35.:34:39.

industrialised nation. Here in Washington state we 600 deaths.

:34:40.:34:44.

Every time this kind of accident takes place the debate takes place

:34:45.:34:49.

too, will there ever be a day when the antigun lobby will have to

:34:50.:34:53.

accept that the American way of life requires access to firearms and you

:34:54.:34:57.

don't like it, will you ever have to accept it do you believe? No, I

:34:58.:35:02.

think change is on the way. Mainstream America is being educated

:35:03.:35:08.

and the risk of having guns. Larry's comment of a gun being used to

:35:09.:35:14.

deflect a crime 1600 times a day is based on bogus research. Research

:35:15.:35:21.

that is refuted by the director of prevention from the Harvard school

:35:22.:35:27.

of public health. They send out false research, we have the mayor

:35:28.:35:36.

spending $50 million to rebutt this. Larry and his groups have prevent

:35:37.:35:43.

the researchers to look into gun violence. Thank you for making time

:35:44.:35:49.

for Newsnight this evening. Eurowoes are back, if they ever

:35:50.:35:52.

truly disappeared. After the Government fell apart on manoeuvre

:35:53.:35:56.

truly disappeared. After the how to rescue its economy, France

:35:57.:35:58.

today announced record unemployment. Italy has fallen into a triple-dip

:35:59.:36:04.

recession, investors are now so nervous about where to put their

:36:05.:36:07.

euros, they are paying the German Government to look after their cash.

:36:08.:36:11.

That is the curious economic quirk of the negative interest rates

:36:12.:36:17.

charged on German bonds these days. Our economics correspondent Duncan

:36:18.:36:21.

Weldon has been working out why. How bad is it? The only word to use what

:36:22.:36:26.

is happening in Europe at the moment is "disaster". What is happening

:36:27.:36:29.

with the German interest rates today, the German Government can

:36:30.:36:34.

borrow at record interest rates, after two years the German

:36:35.:36:38.

Government can borrow at a negative interest rate. People are paying the

:36:39.:36:42.

German Government to take their money. That is not meant to happen,

:36:43.:36:46.

that is a sign something is terribly wrong in the economy. If we look at

:36:47.:36:49.

unemployment and just for context if we look at UK and US unemployment

:36:50.:36:54.

over the last two years, now it rose during the recession, and since then

:36:55.:36:58.

as our economies have recovered unemployment starts to fall. But if

:36:59.:37:02.

we look at Europe you get quite a different picture, so the eurozone

:37:03.:37:07.

unemployment rose but look what has happened since 2011 it has gone

:37:08.:37:10.

higher and stayed up there. The UK and the US have had their weakest

:37:11.:37:15.

recoveries in 100 years but Europe hasn't really had a recovery at all.

:37:16.:37:18.

Those fundamentals have been the case for some time what are the

:37:19.:37:22.

markets so worried about today? What the real concern is about at the

:37:23.:37:25.

moment in Europe is inflation, or rather the lack of inflation. I mean

:37:26.:37:29.

again if we take a look at the numbers, this is the change in

:37:30.:37:34.

prices in the European economy. You have 2010, 2011, inflation is going

:37:35.:37:38.

up, but against 2012 inflation has been collapsing t has been down to

:37:39.:37:41.

less than half a per cent. What is really concerning people today is in

:37:42.:37:45.

the coming months prices in Europe, across Europe as a whole might

:37:46.:37:49.

actually start to fall. Stuff getting cheaper doesn't sound like

:37:50.:37:54.

the biggest economic problem. But what economists will tell you is it

:37:55.:37:58.

is terrible consequence, it sucks spending out of the economy and

:37:59.:38:01.

pushes down pages and making debt harder to pay. That is the last

:38:02.:38:04.

thing particularly southern Europe needs at the moment. The situation

:38:05.:38:08.

is quite worrying. I suspect I can guess the depressing answer to this

:38:09.:38:13.

question, is there any end in sight, any prospect of eurozone politicians

:38:14.:38:18.

gripping this in a long-term radical way? I think you know the answer and

:38:19.:38:22.

the answer is depressing, this seems to be a neverending economic crisis

:38:23.:38:26.

and there is no end in sight at the moment. The real problem is

:38:27.:38:29.

politics. There is lots the European Central Bank could be doing to get

:38:30.:38:32.

Europe out of this state. But it has been held back by the Germans who

:38:33.:38:36.

are very uncomfortable with it. At the moment the French and Italians

:38:37.:38:39.

are pushing very hard for a deal. They are saying we will carry out

:38:40.:38:42.

reforms in our economy but you have to give us more breathing space. The

:38:43.:38:45.

Germans are not budging. They are stuck in this cycle. The really

:38:46.:38:49.

worrying thing is if this continues for a little while longer and down

:38:50.:38:52.

the road you will hear more and more voices in countries like Italy who

:38:53.:38:56.

are starting to say is it worth the pain of being a euro member.

:38:57.:39:01.

Promises that the Internet can revolutionise your life are rather

:39:02.:39:05.

hollow if like millions fortunate to live outside our great Metropolis,

:39:06.:39:13.

your broadband is slow and maybe non-existent. There could be a

:39:14.:39:16.

solution, it might be in the space all around us. It is being

:39:17.:39:21.

developed, where else, but where Marconi set up the first wireless

:39:22.:39:27.

telegraph station, we sent Mark Grossman there, to the Isle of

:39:28.:39:31.

Wight. Battling the waves and not just in the sea. One of the biggest

:39:32.:39:39.

changes for the fresh water independent lifeboat is

:39:40.:39:42.

communication. Radio waves often struggle to get past the spectacular

:39:43.:39:47.

cliffs at the Isle of Wight coastline. Back in the 1890s Marconi

:39:48.:40:01.

came here to test his wireless invention, since then radio has

:40:02.:40:04.

saved thousands of lives, but it is still pretty limited. How dependable

:40:05.:40:08.

is the radio communication? Essentially we are using the same as

:40:09.:40:19.

Mar rconi first invented, we are still limited by line of sight and

:40:20.:40:23.

we can only have one way communication at a time. If somebody

:40:24.:40:26.

else is talking on the radio that will drown us out. If they have got

:40:27.:40:33.

a stronger signal. This is particularly frustrating for Jeremy

:40:34.:40:36.

and the crew, because this lifeboat is otherwise fitted out with the

:40:37.:40:40.

latest technology, including cameras that could stream real-time rescue

:40:41.:40:45.

pictures back to base. What the lifeboat desperately need is a

:40:46.:40:49.

reliable way of getting two-way communication between here and

:40:50.:40:54.

shore. That's exactly what this little boat has been testing as part

:40:55.:41:00.

of a UK-wide series of trials and new technology called TV White

:41:01.:41:06.

Space. Here with the help of a stick and fresh water beach is the

:41:07.:41:13.

technical bit. What is this white space technology? It is technology

:41:14.:41:16.

that takes advantage of unused spectrum, that you can utilise for

:41:17.:41:21.

broadband connectivity. If you think of a spectrum as moving from low

:41:22.:41:25.

freakies down the long wave, up to the high freakies, which is visible

:41:26.:41:28.

light, you have a couple of key points. You have your home-based

:41:29.:41:33.

Wi-Fi that sits here, then the TV broadcasts which are sitting down

:41:34.:41:37.

here, this is prime real estate spectrum, the broadcasters weren't

:41:38.:41:41.

stupid, they put their transmissions in the place that gives them best

:41:42.:41:45.

coverage for the lowest possible power to reach the maximum number of

:41:46.:41:50.

viewers. If we zoom in on the bits where the television transmissions

:41:51.:41:54.

are, it looks like this. This is BBC One, this is BBC Two, this is ITV,

:41:55.:41:59.

you get the idea, and look at this, you have got space here, you have

:42:00.:42:03.

got space there, you have space inbetween the different

:42:04.:42:06.

transmissions? What are the spaces there? These spaces stop the

:42:07.:42:11.

transmissions interfering with each other. That suggests the spaces

:42:12.:42:15.

can't be used because it would interview with the TV signal? Not

:42:16.:42:20.

the case you can use them to deliver broadband. One of the problems with

:42:21.:42:24.

Wi-Fi is how to get it through to the back bedroom and the kitchen. It

:42:25.:42:28.

is not easy to do now. The reason it doesn't reach these places is

:42:29.:42:32.

because the frequency is so high. If you lower the frequency to 600, 700

:42:33.:42:42.

MHz, then had goes much further. Using the TV freakies to send and

:42:43.:42:47.

receive the Internet it means the signal will go much further than the

:42:48.:42:53.

Wi-Fi. You can then connect up a whole village with one Wi-Fi hub,

:42:54.:42:58.

bringing the Internet to the thousands of households currently

:42:59.:43:02.

off line. This man runs an internet provider on the Isle of Wight and

:43:03.:43:05.

can't wait to shift his operation into white space. One of the biggest

:43:06.:43:10.

problems growing that we become approached with are people

:43:11.:43:14.

struggling to sell their houses in the rural area where the broadband

:43:15.:43:19.

connection is not good enough. Everyone who knows if you have a

:43:20.:43:22.

super yacht you can have broadband in the middle of the Atlantic. But

:43:23.:43:27.

systems like that are out of reach of domestic homes and offices and

:43:28.:43:30.

independent lifeboats and the RNLI who have to fund their own

:43:31.:43:34.

purchases. White space allows connectivity to go much longer

:43:35.:43:38.

through much more challenging conditions, but at a really

:43:39.:43:46.

affordable price. There is no confusing the centre of Glasgow with

:43:47.:43:51.

the Isle of Wight what could help rural Britain, could, it is argued,

:43:52.:43:55.

be equally transformative for cities. Strathclyde University has

:43:56.:43:57.

been running a pilot to link their cities. Strathclyde University has

:43:58.:44:01.

campus up with TV white space technology. I can get the

:44:02.:44:06.

Strathclyde network here, and here, and here and here. Of course the

:44:07.:44:12.

university could have used conventional technology to

:44:13.:44:15.

university could have used in and around all these buildings of

:44:16.:44:17.

their in and around all these buildings of

:44:18.:44:21.

laying miles of big, fat, expensive cable. Beyond their budget, instead

:44:22.:44:25.

what have they done? Have a look up there, you see the

:44:26.:44:30.

what have they done? Have a look up bring me the Internet. The wireless

:44:31.:44:34.

revolution is just beginning, we have set up a number of nodes on

:44:35.:44:39.

campus and we have a white space network here so students can pick up

:44:40.:44:44.

on their phone with a Wi-Fi to a white space connected basestation.

:44:45.:44:48.

You wait a few years you will have a white space chip in your mobile

:44:49.:44:52.

device and you can do mobile or Wi-Fi or white space, so as a

:44:53.:44:56.

research organisation we are looking into

:44:57.:44:58.

research organisation we are looking designs. This is something that will

:44:59.:45:02.

happen. It is absolutely going to be a great opportunity for people to be

:45:03.:45:06.

more connected. Because it really will be wireless everything soon.

:45:07.:45:13.

White space technology is possible partly because of advances in GPS,

:45:14.:45:16.

the geographical partly because of advances in GPS,

:45:17.:45:19.

device wanting partly because of advances in GPS,

:45:20.:45:22.

of the spectrum has to be established. This is then fed into a

:45:23.:45:27.

constantly updated database to work out which white spaces are free to

:45:28.:45:33.

use. Ofcom, who control the TV spectrum are white space

:45:34.:45:38.

enthusiasts. When might we see it coming in for real? That is what we

:45:39.:45:42.

are busy working with people at the moment. Rural broadband with

:45:43.:45:47.

workshops taking place last week to see how people can use it, it is

:45:48.:45:50.

being used in America and Singapore, the UK is one of the leaders. We

:45:51.:45:54.

expect people to be able to use it from next year onwards. And speeds

:45:55.:45:59.

that they can only dream of at the moment, I suppose? Definitely. It

:46:00.:46:03.

depends how much white space is available and how many channels you

:46:04.:46:06.

can use in those space, but people will

:46:07.:46:09.

can use in those space, but people use this application. Bar a few rock

:46:10.:46:14.

falls the cliffs haven't changed too much since Marconi stood here and

:46:15.:46:19.

brought radio to the world. Even he would be surely amazed with how far

:46:20.:46:23.

wireless communication has come since then. Some people we barely

:46:24.:46:28.

got started. A clarification, earlier one of our guests referred

:46:29.:46:32.

to the deputy leader of Rotherham council, to be quite clear he was

:46:33.:46:36.

referring to the former deputy leader, just in the last minute some

:46:37.:46:39.

breaking news on that story. The Police Commissioner, Shaun Wright,

:46:40.:46:43.

in south Yorkshire, who was head of Children's Services, during some of

:46:44.:46:46.

the time when abuse was committed on such a scale in Rotherham, has just

:46:47.:46:50.

announced that he is resigning from the Labour Party but has said he

:46:51.:46:56.

remains committed to staying on in his role as Police Commissioner with

:46:57.:46:59.

responsibility for the police in that area. And a very brief look at

:47:00.:47:03.

one of tomorrow's papers that is on the front page of the Sun. One of

:47:04.:47:09.

the victims of that scandal taking an unusual step, waving her

:47:10.:47:13.

anonymity to tell her story and say how angry she is with Shaun Wright.

:47:14.:47:20.

That is all we have time for to tonight, good night and thanks for

:47:21.:47:21.

watching. Another area of low pressure coming

:47:22.:47:47.

lose close to the UKover night, spreading rain northwards, still

:47:48.:47:49.

around in Scotland. It

:47:50.:47:51.

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