26/08/2014 Newsnight


26/08/2014

Lasting truce in Gaza? The Rotherham abuse inquiry, Nigel Farage interviewed, an ex-Nato general calls for rearmament, and Kate Bush reviewed. With Laura Kuenssberg.


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Not willing to listen, not willing to act.

:00:07.:00:08.

How the authorities let down more than a 1,000 children,

:00:09.:00:11.

No matter what is done now, if it is investigated now it won't change

:00:12.:00:24.

that, it was too late, it should have been

:00:25.:00:30.

Is Europe still capable of fighting this off?

:00:31.:00:32.

One of NATO's former top brass thinks not.

:00:33.:00:38.

. It is going, European nations will have to put their money in their

:00:39.:00:45.

pocket and put their hands in their pockets to spend more money on

:00:46.:00:47.

defence. And the good people of Thanet south

:00:48.:00:52.

in Kent will have the chance to choose him as an MP, why is Nigel

:00:53.:00:59.

Farage so sure he will get elected? # If I only could

:01:00.:01:02.

# Make a deal with God # And get him to swap our places

:01:03.:01:10.

We couldn't all squeeze in at the back but we will hear what Kate Bush

:01:11.:01:14.

was like on stage more than 30 years on.

:01:15.:01:25.

For years children in the Yorkshire down of Rotterham were being raped

:01:26.:01:33.

and warned off if they threatened to tell. An independent inquiry shows

:01:34.:01:37.

they were victims not once but twice over, because the authorities whose

:01:38.:01:40.

job it was to protect them knew and didn't act to end it, the report's

:01:41.:01:45.

author tells us tonight we need a national system to track this kind

:01:46.:01:50.

of systematic, often violent abuse, grooming seems far too polite a

:01:51.:01:54.

word. We will hear from her in a moment. First here is Chris Cook.

:01:55.:02:00.

Today new light has been shed on one of the darkest of stories. Alexis

:02:01.:02:07.

Jay, a social work expert, has conducted a review into Rotherham's

:02:08.:02:11.

child protection. Triggered by a series of reports about sexual

:02:12.:02:15.

exploitation. In 2010 five local men were prosecuted for abuse, in a case

:02:16.:02:19.

that propelled the town's problems on to the front pages. But the

:02:20.:02:22.

results of the review, which look back as far as the late 1990s

:02:23.:02:27.

suggest that was just one link in a chilling pattern.

:02:28.:02:31.

It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse the child

:02:32.:02:39.

victims suffered. They were raped by multiple perpetrator, they were

:02:40.:02:41.

traffiked to other towns and cities in the north of England. We were

:02:42.:02:46.

abducted, beaten and intimidated. There were examples of children

:02:47.:02:50.

being dowsed with petrol and threatened with being set alight.

:02:51.:02:55.

They were threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes

:02:56.:02:58.

and threatened they would be the next if they told anyone

:02:59.:03:02.

The review looked at 66 case files from vulnerable local children,

:03:03.:03:07.

finding sexual exploitation in 64 cases. The true scale of the problem

:03:08.:03:13.

is hard to gauge. But the report estimated that 1,400 children may

:03:14.:03:19.

have been exploited over 16 years from 1997 to 2013.

:03:20.:03:24.

Whatever the extent of the abuse the incidents rede tailed by the report

:03:25.:03:29.

are harrowing. This local woman spoke to BBC Panorama, on the

:03:30.:03:33.

condition of anonymity. I think because the police were aware social

:03:34.:03:36.

services were aware and you knew that and they still didn't stop him,

:03:37.:03:40.

I think it encouraged him and it almost became a game to him, he was

:03:41.:03:46.

untouchable. Or take child A, a case from the report who was identified

:03:47.:03:49.

by the authorities of being at risk when she was 12 years old, she was

:03:50.:03:53.

possibly taking drugs, and revealed that she had intercourse with five

:03:54.:03:59.

adults. Two adults received police cautions after admitting as much to

:04:00.:04:03.

them. When her case was discussed by local officials a local police

:04:04.:04:07.

officer argued that she shouldn't be considered a victim of sexual abuse

:04:08.:04:12.

because he thought that child A had been 100% consensual in every

:04:13.:04:16.

incident. This was overruled by other local official who is had a

:04:17.:04:19.

clear understanding that what had happened was a crime. As that case

:04:20.:04:27.

highlights there were institutional failures that enabled this tragedy.

:04:28.:04:31.

South Yorkshire Police, the report said, regarded many child victims

:04:32.:04:34.

with contempt. The council ignored warnings and did not take child

:04:35.:04:38.

protection seriously, and there was a particular issue around race. The

:04:39.:04:42.

report notes that by far the majority of the perpetrators were

:04:43.:04:47.

described as Asian by their victim, but several local staff described

:04:48.:04:53.

their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators

:04:54.:04:57.

for fear of being thought racist. Others remembered clear direction

:04:58.:05:00.

from their managers not to do so. As the report notes, these predatory

:05:01.:05:04.

men preyed on Asian and white girls alike. The council leader has

:05:05.:05:08.

resigned, and the police have apologised. I think it is important

:05:09.:05:14.

we recognise we failed, we let our young people down and from the start

:05:15.:05:18.

I want to offer a sincere and unreserved apology for victims and

:05:19.:05:21.

families that we should have done more with. We have commissioned a

:05:22.:05:25.

number of investigations with the hor at thises calm complaints and we

:05:26.:05:29.

will continue to work to identify those responsible and bring them to

:05:30.:05:33.

justice. The extent of the problems in Rotherham are not common, but

:05:34.:05:36.

some of the local institutional problems revealed by the report are.

:05:37.:05:43.

Rotherham ought to be a wake-up call to officials everywhere. Professor

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Jay who wrote the report said the authorities involved have great deal

:05:48.:05:51.

to answer for, despite that both Rotherham Council and South

:05:52.:05:56.

Yorkshire Police declined our invitation for interview. Both

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failed to act on repeated warnings in 2002, 2003, and 2006. When I

:06:02.:06:05.

spoke to Professor Jay earlier I asked her how that could have

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happened? It is difficult to understand exactly how it could have

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happened because the three reports to which you refer are so clear in

:06:14.:06:20.

what they are saying about the problem in Rotherham. They couldn't

:06:21.:06:25.

be less ambiguous. Was there a cover-up then? What was going on in

:06:26.:06:29.

your view, having studied it so carefully? There were a succession

:06:30.:06:35.

of senior managers and others in the council and in the police who seem

:06:36.:06:40.

to hold a very similar view and there seemed to be no form of

:06:41.:06:45.

challenge to that view. But they even accused some of the younger

:06:46.:06:49.

workers of exaggerating what they had been finding? That word was used

:06:50.:06:57.

so frequently by some of the staff who were involved at the time, the

:06:58.:07:01.

frontline staff, but actually also by others in different positions in

:07:02.:07:06.

relation to child sexual exploitation, where it was firmly

:07:07.:07:10.

the belief that there was exaggeration going on about the

:07:11.:07:12.

scale of the problem. Surely it should be the case that

:07:13.:07:17.

those people who did not take those concerns seriously, as you have

:07:18.:07:20.

described, surely they should not be working in this sector today? Well I

:07:21.:07:28.

can only quote the chief executive who has apparently contacted current

:07:29.:07:33.

employers of people who were previously employed by the council

:07:34.:07:37.

to draw their attention to the report and for any action which they

:07:38.:07:42.

think needs to be taken. Now you did not find evidence in your report

:07:43.:07:47.

that sensitivities over the thisties had affected decision making. But it

:07:48.:07:54.

is woven through the words and the concerns in your report, almost on

:07:55.:07:59.

every page, you report some workers were told by managers not to reveal

:08:00.:08:07.

the ethnicity of the they were -- perpetrators. Do you think it was

:08:08.:08:10.

political correctness hiding what was going on? That is a possibility,

:08:11.:08:17.

it is certainly the case, and I was glad to see it did not affect how

:08:18.:08:21.

professional social workers approached the work they carried out

:08:22.:08:24.

with individual children. However, there was a very strong response and

:08:25.:08:30.

perception, as you say, that ethnic issues played some part in this. And

:08:31.:08:36.

the number of people I asked why do you think this happened, the same

:08:37.:08:40.

question as you are asking me, why do you think this happened, many

:08:41.:08:45.

have come up with that as a possible reason. When it comes, however, to

:08:46.:08:51.

the sexual exploitation of children, do you think it is the case that any

:08:52.:08:59.

sensitivity towards diversity, any ethnicity, any gender issues, surely

:09:00.:09:03.

that should just go out the window, shouldn't the priority be taking

:09:04.:09:09.

children seriously? Absolutely, and you will see that I make that in one

:09:10.:09:16.

my recommendations, where any ethnic dimension with any group is a

:09:17.:09:21.

critical factor then it must be pursued and understood in order to

:09:22.:09:25.

bring perpetrators to justice. Professor Jay, you have looked in

:09:26.:09:29.

detail at what was going on in this one town, we know already that it

:09:30.:09:34.

was happening in several others, but do you think we're anywhere near

:09:35.:09:39.

really getting a grip of the scale of this problem as a country

:09:40.:09:45.

overall. I think the fact that we have no national system of reporting

:09:46.:09:52.

information and gathering data about the problem means that we can't

:09:53.:09:56.

compare one area with another. I certainly have no evidence to

:09:57.:09:59.

suggest that Rotherham is very much worse than other places. So it is

:10:00.:10:05.

impossible to tell and nobody could tell you what the true scale of

:10:06.:10:09.

child sexual exploitation in Britain is, but it is almost certainly

:10:10.:10:14.

underestimated significantly. Ought we to have such a national system?

:10:15.:10:19.

It would certainly help to understand the true scale of the

:10:20.:10:25.

problem if there was some kind of system for gathering information at

:10:26.:10:31.

a national level. Thank you very much indeed.

:10:32.:10:37.

We have the Children's Minister from 2010-2012 in Brighton, and Sarah

:10:38.:10:41.

Champion is the Rotherham MP and the author of a recent parliamentary

:10:42.:10:47.

report on child sexual exploitation in Sheffield and also with us

:10:48.:10:52.

tonight. Sarah Champion you worked in Rotherham for many years before

:10:53.:10:56.

becoming an MP, did you have any understanding of the scale of what

:10:57.:11:00.

was revealed today? No, and to be quite honest until I saw the report

:11:01.:11:05.

I knew there had been incidences of it before, but 1400 children and

:11:06.:11:11.

young people being abused in that way, and that is 1400 that have had

:11:12.:11:16.

the courage to come forward, not acknowledged or supported and they

:11:17.:11:19.

came forward. What terrifies me is the number of children who have been

:11:20.:11:22.

through the experience and haven't had the courage to come forward. We

:11:23.:11:26.

have to do something dramatic to make those children know that now we

:11:27.:11:30.

will listen to them. What is very clear is in the past they weren't

:11:31.:11:35.

listened to, respected ore taken seriously. When you were Children's

:11:36.:11:39.

Minister you work veried closely on this issue, were you aware that

:11:40.:11:43.

police and council members and managers were ignoring warnings of

:11:44.:11:48.

this kind of problem? Yes, and that was part of the problem, back in

:11:49.:11:54.

2011 I launched the child sexual exploitation action plan, it was a

:11:55.:11:58.

major piece of work. It brought together police, Children's

:11:59.:12:01.

Services, academics, children's charities and lots of experts to say

:12:02.:12:05.

we have to get a grip on this. That happened because of the Operation

:12:06.:12:13.

Retriever and the Derby case, and the appalling cases of the children

:12:14.:12:16.

abused again by Pakistani gangs, it brought it all out into the

:12:17.:12:21.

daylight. Because those people were pursued and prosecuted more people

:12:22.:12:23.

then came forward and people started to take this seriously, starting

:12:24.:12:27.

with the police and with Children's Services. I think that has changed

:12:28.:12:31.

everything. It is still going on and it is still a major problem, but we

:12:32.:12:34.

have realised it is a problem and much more is being done about it, in

:12:35.:12:38.

Rotherham it is a very serious problem. Given that framework that

:12:39.:12:43.

you put in place though, you must be alarmed to hear from Professor Jay

:12:44.:12:46.

that in her view this kind of thing is not just still going on, but

:12:47.:12:51.

troubled children are still being sometimes turned away, even the very

:12:52.:12:55.

victims identified in this report aren't getting the help they need.

:12:56.:13:00.

Has the Government lost sight of the problem since you departed? No, I

:13:01.:13:03.

hope the Government hasn't lost sight of the problem and lots of

:13:04.:13:06.

good, practical things are happening, but it required a change

:13:07.:13:10.

in mind set. Clearly what has come out in the Rotherham case and it is

:13:11.:13:14.

not unique to Rotherham is that the police in the interests it seems of

:13:15.:13:19.

political correctness were turning a blind eye, shuffling under the

:13:20.:13:24.

carpet the activities of serious abuser, rapist criminals and

:13:25.:13:28.

torturers, that is a disgrace and can't be allowed to happen any more.

:13:29.:13:31.

The police have been trained and brought around the table to work

:13:32.:13:34.

with other agencies to make sure they are clamping down on this sort

:13:35.:13:38.

of thing. There isn't any excuse for this, whatever the ethnic background

:13:39.:13:42.

of the people perpetrating this, they are criminals and it must be

:13:43.:13:45.

stopped. They must be brought to justice. And a lot of them are now

:13:46.:13:49.

being brought to justice and a lot of them are now in jail. Not enough,

:13:50.:13:52.

more has to be done to bring more of them to justice. There is though the

:13:53.:13:56.

role here of the authorities looking the other way. Now your constituents

:13:57.:14:02.

know tonight that nobody working in your town, who is implicated in this

:14:03.:14:07.

report is still in child protection services in your town, but they may

:14:08.:14:12.

well be Lord working elsewhere, and indeed we know from Professor Jay

:14:13.:14:15.

that the chief executive of the council has written to their current

:14:16.:14:21.

employers, essentially to warn them, should people implicated here still

:14:22.:14:24.

be working in child protection? I have very grave concerns about that.

:14:25.:14:29.

I mean clearly what has happened is whilst the frontline staff were very

:14:30.:14:32.

aware of the problems and really trying to make the voices of those

:14:33.:14:36.

young people heard, the more senior managers were, I don't know if they

:14:37.:14:39.

were turning a blind eye to it, I don't know what their justification

:14:40.:14:42.

could possibly be for this because I don't think there is any, but the

:14:43.:14:45.

fact that they could be still working in child protection of

:14:46.:14:47.

course that is something that, well, I think all of us are very concerned

:14:48.:14:51.

about that and it is something we need to investigate really fast. I

:14:52.:14:54.

know that the chief executive has written to all of their employers,

:14:55.:14:58.

but it is the fact that sort of benign neglect of the children that

:14:59.:15:02.

they are meant to be taking care of could still be going on will concern

:15:03.:15:07.

everyone. Indeed not a single person has been sacked or disciplined, if

:15:08.:15:10.

you were still Children's Minister tonight, would you be content with

:15:11.:15:14.

that? Would you be content with people still working elsewhere in

:15:15.:15:18.

child protection? I certainly wouldn't, and I'm afraid it is too

:15:19.:15:22.

common a theme that when these scandals take place, be in Haringey

:15:23.:15:26.

and Rochdale or whatever, that actually nobody or very few people

:15:27.:15:31.

actually pay the consequences and are sacked. Frankly in the case of

:15:32.:15:35.

Rotherham a social worker responsible for protecting

:15:36.:15:37.

vulnerable children, to turn a blind eye to a 12-year-old having sexual

:15:38.:15:41.

relationships with a stranger twice, three times at her age and to say

:15:42.:15:45.

well that was consensual sex and to do nothing about it, that person has

:15:46.:15:50.

absolutely no place in anything to do with vulnerable children. If they

:15:51.:15:54.

are still practising anywhere they shouldn't be. Frankly, we do need to

:15:55.:15:58.

look at the records of some of the people who were in positions of

:15:59.:16:01.

responsibility when this sort of abuse was going on in Rotherham and

:16:02.:16:04.

other places. It is not good enough just to say well I wasn't there when

:16:05.:16:10.

all this was happening. At least the leader of the council, not saying

:16:11.:16:14.

he's directly responsible, but this stuff was happening when he was at

:16:15.:16:18.

the helm has done the decent thing and stood down. There are

:16:19.:16:22.

practitioners whose day-to-day jobs are to look after vulnerable

:16:23.:16:27.

children and have clearly failed and failed vulnerable children. Thank

:16:28.:16:29.

you very much for being with us tonight.

:16:30.:16:34.

Now, explosions on the streets in Gaza tonight marked not more

:16:35.:16:41.

violence, but a ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinians after

:16:42.:16:48.

weeks of fighting and 2,000 deaths. The deal brokered by Egypt brings an

:16:49.:16:52.

easing of border restrictions on Gaza, but previous ceasefires have

:16:53.:16:56.

not lasted. Will this one be any different. We're there tonight.

:16:57.:17:01.

Certainly on the streets of Gaza tonight people seem to think it will

:17:02.:17:05.

be, because they came out in their many thousand, they were celebrating

:17:06.:17:09.

and not just the ceasefire but what they were calling victory over

:17:10.:17:12.

Israel, and in the previous deals we haven't seen that. Some of those

:17:13.:17:16.

ceasefires lasted a couple of hours, some of them lasted as long as five

:17:17.:17:20.

days. Certainly the feeling here seems to be this one may well be

:17:21.:17:23.

different. Perhaps one of the reasons they feel it is different is

:17:24.:17:29.

because the blockade is being lifted or at least partially lifted, the

:17:30.:17:33.

blockade that Egypt and Israel enforce around here in Gaza. But

:17:34.:17:36.

when you look at the details of this deal, it doesn't look very

:17:37.:17:41.

dissimilar from the ceasefire agreement that was agreed after the

:17:42.:17:47.

2012 war with Gaza. It is difficult to see really what has been

:17:48.:17:51.

achieved. When you ask Israelis what has been achieved they will say that

:17:52.:17:56.

they have removed a number of key Hamas leaders, that they have put

:17:57.:18:00.

pressure on Hamas, that they have destroyed a network of Hamas tunnel

:18:01.:18:04.

that is were making their way into Israel in a way that Israel never

:18:05.:18:08.

really realised before. Some would blame a failure of intelligence for

:18:09.:18:13.

that. What have Hamas achieved? 2,000 people plus have died here,

:18:14.:18:17.

most of them civilians, many women and children. But Hamas has gained a

:18:18.:18:22.

relevance again, people are suddenly talking about Gaza and their cause

:18:23.:18:26.

in way that they weren't, certainly internationally they are. And among

:18:27.:18:31.

Palestinians a group that was perhaps by some seen as being

:18:32.:18:35.

increase league irrelevant after moving into a dial with the

:18:36.:18:40.

Palestinian Authority for a unity Government, Hamas which is a body by

:18:41.:18:45.

supports an armed struggle has shown it can still take the fight to

:18:46.:18:48.

Israel and it can still be left standing at the end of that fight.

:18:49.:18:53.

The handshakes could hardly have been more awkward when Vladimir

:18:54.:19:05.

Putin and Petro. Poroshenko met to try to sort things out today. Russia

:19:06.:19:10.

flexing its muscles more than local difficulty, if the rest of the world

:19:11.:19:15.

want to intervene if Russia stretches further would we be strong

:19:16.:19:19.

enough to do so. One of the most senior men on the continent, Richard

:19:20.:19:23.

Sheriff former deputy supreme commander at NATO thinks not. We

:19:24.:19:32.

have been talking to him. Ukraine has put on show detainees who are

:19:33.:19:37.

members of a Russia paratroop regiment. Moscow admits they crossed

:19:38.:19:40.

the border but says it was an accident. It is one more sign of a

:19:41.:19:46.

desire to intimidate Ukraine, says the general who until recently was

:19:47.:19:52.

NATO's number two and who, as the crisis in eastern European unfolded,

:19:53.:19:57.

saw gaps between receipt and taking concrete steps. P the issue is how

:19:58.:20:07.

do they have the forces required. There is a mismatch between the

:20:08.:20:12.

rhetoric around the North Atlantic Council table about commitment to

:20:13.:20:14.

operations and what nations are prepared to put on the table. As far

:20:15.:20:20.

as the potential crisis or the crisis in Eastern Europe and eastern

:20:21.:20:25.

Ukraine, I think the reality is that NATO would be very hard pressed and

:20:26.:20:29.

they would find it very difficult to put into the field at sea or into

:20:30.:20:35.

the air the means required to, particularly on land I would assess,

:20:36.:20:39.

to counter any form of Russian adventurism. Does that mean that

:20:40.:20:43.

western Europe is essentially defenceless against Russia? It means

:20:44.:20:48.

that well now you are getting into the whole question about Europe and

:20:49.:20:53.

America. Certainly Europe, western Europe would not be able to defend

:20:54.:21:01.

against, in my view, against Russia without significant support from the

:21:02.:21:04.

Americans. I think NATO would find it really difficult to get a

:21:05.:21:08.

division out of the door in quick time. That is 20,000? 20,000 people

:21:09.:21:14.

out of the door in quick time. Because effectively and certainly in

:21:15.:21:18.

western Europe what we have seen progressively is a dismantling of

:21:19.:21:24.

military capability. Do you appreciate that effectively saying

:21:25.:21:27.

NATO needs to rearm, which is what I think you are saying, is a very

:21:28.:21:33.

unpopular message in this time of economic stringency? I have no doubt

:21:34.:21:37.

it is an unpopular message, but it is a message that our political

:21:38.:21:42.

leadership need to take home and listen to and act on. If they are

:21:43.:21:47.

serious about ensuring that NATO has the means to defend itself in

:21:48.:21:55.

future. If you look across the NATO alliance, only four nations out of

:21:56.:22:00.

28 spend more than the minimum of 2% on GDP that all 28 nations have

:22:01.:22:04.

signed up to around the North Atlantic Council table. So you have

:22:05.:22:09.

got significant economic powerhouses within the alliance who spend well

:22:10.:22:15.

below the 2% of GDP on defence. If NATO is serious about this, it is

:22:16.:22:18.

going to have to rearm, it is going to have to rebuild capability.

:22:19.:22:21.

European nations are going to have to put their money in their pocket,

:22:22.:22:26.

put their hands in their pockets to spend more money on defence.

:22:27.:22:33.

But Libya where NATO helped topple Colonel Gadaffi shows the risk of

:22:34.:22:38.

taking action. In recent days Tripoli Airport has been largely

:22:39.:22:44.

destroyed by rival militias has there is warring in the country.

:22:45.:22:53.

What responsibility does it bear for the subsequent mess? NATO was asked

:22:54.:22:58.

to protect and it did the job effectively. When that campaign came

:22:59.:23:02.

to an end, the air campaign came to the end with the murder of Gadaffi

:23:03.:23:08.

and the collapse of the regime, NATO stood by, had done the contingency

:23:09.:23:13.

planning necessary to go in and support the Libyan, whatever Libyan

:23:14.:23:17.

Government emerged from that aI don'ts, if -- chaos, if it was he

:23:18.:23:22.

required, the message was no he requirement, no desire for any form

:23:23.:23:27.

of foreign intervention, so NATO stands back. The resulting chaos is

:23:28.:23:32.

plain and evident for all to see. This is one of the realities of the

:23:33.:23:35.

strategic context we see at the moment.

:23:36.:23:39.

The desire to protect vulnerable minorities in northern Iraq now

:23:40.:23:42.

plays its part in a new intervention. The Jihadists of ISIS,

:23:43.:23:49.

now calling themselves the Islamic State, have beheaded and massacred

:23:50.:23:53.

Iraqis and Syrians alike. How far should the UK follow America's lead

:23:54.:23:58.

and what should the objective be? I think the first priority is to

:23:59.:24:02.

protect, but ultimately the priority must be to eradicate Islamic State,

:24:03.:24:08.

as an external threat, because of the potential impact on the Middle

:24:09.:24:12.

East, on our friends in the Middle East, but also its potential impact

:24:13.:24:18.

if this incubus is allowed to survive, the potential impact on our

:24:19.:24:23.

security on our external security, whether it is through the import of

:24:24.:24:27.

terrorism whatever, but also there is a very clear issue as far as the

:24:28.:24:31.

internal security is concerned, given the number of British and

:24:32.:24:39.

other western borders. UK? It is not just a British problem but one that

:24:40.:24:44.

applies right across western Europe. Does that mean that US, UK end up

:24:45.:24:50.

fighting Islamic State in Syria? Being effectively on the same side

:24:51.:25:00.

Ascarate sad? -- as Assad? There can be no eradication of Islamic State

:25:01.:25:04.

without a regional approach. They are operating and have spread into

:25:05.:25:08.

Syria and therefore there is likely to be or inevitably going to be a

:25:09.:25:12.

need to sit down and talk to difficult bed fellow, bad people.

:25:13.:25:17.

The Prime Minister has been very direct in saying that the Islamic

:25:18.:25:22.

State has to be counted, has to be -- countered and has to be reversed

:25:23.:25:26.

and ultimately defeated. How achievable is that? It is one thing

:25:27.:25:30.

to say that we are going to deal with t but you have to back up your

:25:31.:25:35.

words with actions. And in my view we should therefore rule out nothing

:25:36.:25:40.

and going back to what the Prime Minister has said, ruling out combat

:25:41.:25:45.

boots, or boots on the ground and saying as he did in the paper the

:25:46.:25:51.

other day we don't want to fight, is immediately giving your opposition

:25:52.:25:55.

15 or 30 points up at the beginning of the match. I think we must apply

:25:56.:26:00.

all the levers of power, political, diplomatic, economic and military.

:26:01.:26:06.

But above all we need to establish the international political will to

:26:07.:26:10.

deal with this, and of course in the NATO summit coming up there is a

:26:11.:26:17.

real opportunity. Just in case you were thinking or

:26:18.:26:21.

hoping you had a few more days peace and quiet from MPs before the poor

:26:22.:26:25.

dears have to come back from holidays, today was a big day for

:26:26.:26:30.

two wannabes you have heard of. Boris Johnson gave away the worst

:26:31.:26:33.

kept secret in politics, he wants to stand as an MP in the west London

:26:34.:26:39.

constituency of Uxbridge and West Ruislip, and the other UK politician

:26:40.:26:44.

recoginsable by only his first name went a step further. Nigel Farage,

:26:45.:26:50.

the UKIP leader was chosen as his party's candidate for Thanet south

:26:51.:26:54.

in Kent. We went along to witness the celebrations.

:26:55.:27:00.

Mr Nigel Farage. This was always going to be more of an inauguration

:27:01.:27:05.

than a selection process. The press were invited to film the Hustings in

:27:06.:27:10.

South Thanet, a good sign the result was never in doubt. The race here is

:27:11.:27:15.

now shaping up to be the most interesting battle of the next

:27:16.:27:19.

general election. South Thanet is prime UKIP territory. I was a four

:27:20.:27:25.

handicap golfer and there were lots of golf courses here, and another

:27:26.:27:29.

one of my hobbies, there is quite a lot of pubs I notice. When it is

:27:30.:27:33.

clear you can see France from the beach here in Ramsgate, not today in

:27:34.:27:37.

this weather. It might just be 30 miles away, but Europe and

:27:38.:27:44.

immigration are worries here, as a wider concerns about jobs and the

:27:45.:27:49.

economy. At the cafe works Miriam, a UKIP voter in the past and the kind

:27:50.:27:53.

of supporter Nigel Farage will be banking on come May. Looking at the

:27:54.:28:00.

party's policies what attracts you to the policies? Sorting out

:28:01.:28:03.

immigration because it is way out of hand. I think somebody needs to rein

:28:04.:28:10.

it in and do something about it. I like Nigel Farage. I think he's an

:28:11.:28:16.

OK bloke. He doesn't deserve to have eggs thrown at him! Over the last 30

:28:17.:28:21.

years South Thanet has blown with the political wind, Labour in 1997

:28:22.:28:27.

backed a Conservative in 2010. But reporters at the local paper say the

:28:28.:28:31.

shift to UKIP feels more than a protest vote, a poll last month put

:28:32.:28:37.

the party ahead in this seat for the first time, after big gains in local

:28:38.:28:41.

elections last year. The County Council, where they just swept in

:28:42.:28:44.

and took seven out of the eight seats was a bit of a shock,

:28:45.:28:48.

especially for the Conservatives who lost their seats. But since then

:28:49.:28:52.

they have just seemed to be going from strength-to-strength. The

:28:53.:28:55.

orthodox view is UKIP will take votes from the Tories, both in this

:28:56.:29:01.

seat and nationally as the local elections showed, Nigel Farage is

:29:02.:29:04.

more than capable of winning in Labour strongholds. Europe is an

:29:05.:29:07.

issue and people are worried about the amount of money that seems to go

:29:08.:29:12.

to Europe, but I know locally we have benefitted fatastically through

:29:13.:29:16.

European funding, particularly objective 2 ERDF and other monies.

:29:17.:29:20.

That is a hard argument to make at the moment? It is difficult to

:29:21.:29:24.

remind people of how we benefit from connections with Europe. This is not

:29:25.:29:28.

good news for you, Mr Farrage standing, this will make your job

:29:29.:29:30.

more difficult you would have thought? We will do the exact same

:29:31.:29:36.

thing we have been doing for the last a 13 months, knock on the doors

:29:37.:29:40.

and speak to people about the issues, that is what I have done all

:29:41.:29:43.

the time I have been involved in politics. You will not get down the

:29:44.:29:48.

pub with your pint straight way? No! As for the Conservatives they won't

:29:49.:29:52.

were keen to talk to us today, saying all this is a distraction

:29:53.:29:56.

from the work they are doing. The new Tory candidate, Craig McKinly is

:29:57.:30:00.

a former leader of UKIP and a man who has made no secret of his own

:30:01.:30:04.

euro-sceptic views. How are you doing, nice to meet you. You could

:30:05.:30:10.

have picked a better day than this. Mr Farrage took to the high street

:30:11.:30:13.

this afternoon, ahead of his official selection, UKIP has done

:30:14.:30:20.

well in past elections and to see that support melt away in the

:30:21.:30:22.

general election that followed. Voter concern with immigration in

:30:23.:30:26.

particular may break that pattern. A survey today puts the party's

:30:27.:30:30.

national support at more than 16%. The message he's sending out to the

:30:31.:30:35.

other parties is that they are not representing the normal people on

:30:36.:30:38.

the street, especially locally round here, I couldn't tell you what he

:30:39.:30:42.

thinks about with the hospitals and policing or anything else other than

:30:43.:30:45.

the immigration, but it has got him to where he is. He's all about the

:30:46.:30:53.

white British rather than Britain as a whole. I do agree with the fact

:30:54.:30:57.

that we need to limit how many people are coming into the country,

:30:58.:31:00.

we are a small island nation and we are getting overcrowded. Somebody

:31:01.:31:04.

once said I'm David Cameron's worst nightmare. After the European

:31:05.:31:08.

elections Nigel Farage spoke of a political earthquake, he will be

:31:09.:31:11.

hoping a result in South Thanet and other target seats will put UKIP in

:31:12.:31:16.

the heart of Westminster, changing the political landscape for good.

:31:17.:31:22.

Keen constituency watchers may have noticed that Boris Johnson will be

:31:23.:31:27.

standing in Uxbridge and south Ruislip, not West Ruislip, earlier I

:31:28.:31:36.

spoke to the new UKIP candidate for his seat in Kent just after his

:31:37.:31:40.

selection was announced. Nigel Farage, congratulations on your

:31:41.:31:44.

selection, you said you want to run in South Thanet because of the

:31:45.:31:49.

appeal of sea, angling, golf courses and the pub. What is the appeal of

:31:50.:31:55.

you to Thanet? You know I made a couple of off the cuff remarks about

:31:56.:32:01.

why I like the place, the UKIP appeal to South Thanet is it is a

:32:02.:32:07.

well organised local party. A lot of politics is on a voluntary level and

:32:08.:32:10.

we have a great voluntary group here. That room was packed with all

:32:11.:32:16.

people of all ages and enthusiasm, the key to this and the key to my

:32:17.:32:21.

candidacy is the fact that we have managed to establish here a base and

:32:22.:32:27.

foothold in local Government. Of the eight Kent County Council seats that

:32:28.:32:32.

cover the island of Thanet we won seven of them, we have won a

:32:33.:32:36.

district by-election, the whole council is up on the same day of the

:32:37.:32:41.

general election, and we will fight 56 seats. It won't just be me, it

:32:42.:32:46.

will be the local candidates, councillors and enthusiasts. That

:32:47.:32:51.

cocktail is something the Liberal Democrats proved in the 1990s that

:32:52.:32:54.

with enthusiasm and optimisim it is surprising what you can achieve. If

:32:55.:32:59.

that base is successful in achieving to attract many votes in that area,

:33:00.:33:04.

isn't it the case that what you will do is hurt the Conservative vote and

:33:05.:33:07.

they are the party promising a referendum, just as you do. You are

:33:08.:33:11.

actually going to make that referendum less likely if you

:33:12.:33:15.

succeed, aren't you? Well I think in Thanet if you are euro-sceptic and

:33:16.:33:19.

you vote Conservative, the risk is you might let Labour in. So I don't

:33:20.:33:22.

think that people will want to vote for an imitation. I think people

:33:23.:33:26.

want to vote for the real thing. We will be the challengers to the

:33:27.:33:29.

Labour Party. That's how I see this seat. I see it as a contest between

:33:30.:33:34.

Aust the Labour Party primarily, and this old fashioned outdated idea

:33:35.:33:41.

that UKIP voters are all ex-stories is baloney, we are picking up a

:33:42.:33:45.

large chunk of old Labour votes. You know very well that most of the

:33:46.:33:52.

voters who choose UKIP from time to time are ex-Conservative voters,

:33:53.:33:57.

even in that seat there the Conservative member is one of the

:33:58.:33:59.

founding members of the UKIP, you are not really going to suggest that

:34:00.:34:04.

you standing might not split the euro-sceptic vote? Let's try this

:34:05.:34:11.

again, I think that view is total and utter rubbish. We pick up a

:34:12.:34:15.

majority of votes in Thanet from people who are not Conservative

:34:16.:34:19.

voters. We pick up not just a big chunk of the old Labour vote, we

:34:20.:34:23.

also pick up a lot of people who haven't engaged in the political

:34:24.:34:27.

process for many years or in some cases never at all in their lives.

:34:28.:34:42.

We saw it in Eastly, if we hadn't taken it the Tories would have

:34:43.:34:45.

beaten the Liberal Democrats. There are seats like this where UKIP is

:34:46.:34:49.

the key challenger. If we can get the euro-sceptics to muster around

:34:50.:34:54.

UKIP, otherwise there is more of a risk that Labour will win. What

:34:55.:34:58.

happens if you don't win, and if UKIP doesn't send any MPs to

:34:59.:35:00.

Westminster at the election what will you do? I have absolutely no

:35:01.:35:07.

idea. That is eight months away. It is funny, all through my career

:35:08.:35:10.

people have said what will you do if you fail and if you don't succeed.

:35:11.:35:14.

The answer in life is to fight and stand up for what you believe in. We

:35:15.:35:18.

have really had an extraordinary year. We have won a national

:35:19.:35:22.

election in the European elections, our opinion poll ratings are holding

:35:23.:35:27.

very steady, specialist polling data from people like Lord Ashcroft now

:35:28.:35:31.

puts us ahead in some parliamentary constituencies, and I think we will

:35:32.:35:36.

succeed. I think we are going to get MPs elected to

:35:37.:35:38.

succeed. I think we are going to get year, I don't at at this stage know

:35:39.:35:42.

how many. If things go the right way for us who knows, we could hold the

:35:43.:35:44.

balance of power. Nigel Farage, thank you very much

:35:45.:35:47.

indeed. It has been a long time, a very long

:35:48.:35:53.

time, a very, very long time since she appeared on the stage.

:35:54.:35:56.

It is true, not all of you might think that is a shame. But for an

:35:57.:36:02.

ardent, passionate and considerable group the relative exile of Kate

:36:03.:36:07.

Bush, 35 years long, has been tragic. Here is a reminder of what

:36:08.:36:12.

we have been missing from Steven Smith.

:36:13.:36:15.

# I hear him # Before I go to sleep

:36:16.:36:25.

# And focus on the day that's been These days pop acts have comebacks

:36:26.:36:31.

before you notice they have gone. But Kate Bush has been missed for

:36:32.:36:35.

every one of the 35 years since her last run of concerts. What took her

:36:36.:36:41.

so long? I'm waiting to meet the man who helped to dream up her last

:36:42.:36:47.

tour, way back in 1979. I think this is him now!

:36:48.:36:59.

Thanks for dropping in. Now trading as Simon Drake's House of Magic, he

:37:00.:37:03.

remembers life on the road with Kate Bush, including the time he was

:37:04.:37:09.

knocked out cold on stage. I woke up feeling pretty strange lying on the

:37:10.:37:13.

floor in Kate's arms. She was saying please don't die. Men would pay

:37:14.:37:17.

money for that? I could have died happily then to be honest, it was

:37:18.:37:21.

such a big thing that tour at the time, it was like Beatlemania. And

:37:22.:37:25.

there were 30 people on stage and God knows how many others travelling

:37:26.:37:29.

around England and Europe. I remember sitting in a kitchen over

:37:30.:37:34.

ten years ago now and I said it would be great if you just did six

:37:35.:37:37.

nights at the festival hall, she actually said to me Simon I don't

:37:38.:37:41.

think anyone really cares any more, they don't know who I am now. I went

:37:42.:37:45.

for God's sake. She's genuinely modest. This isn't somebody faking

:37:46.:37:50.

it, she genuinely is a humble person.

:37:51.:37:53.

# If I only could # I'd make a deal with God

:37:54.:37:59.

# I'd get him to swap our places Even at the height of her success

:38:00.:38:02.

there were signs that Kate Bush could be happy with a more domestic

:38:03.:38:07.

life, where she could work on her recipes. It is what I would cook.

:38:08.:38:12.

Let's have a look at this one, this is vegtables, what sorts of

:38:13.:38:17.

vegtables are here? Carrots, mushroom, tomatoes, we did them

:38:18.:38:21.

naturally, you can even cook them in matter might, that is a good gravy

:38:22.:38:26.

substitute, and soy sauce is very good, all sorts of things.

:38:27.:38:32.

# Out on the windy moors # We roll and fall and breathe

:38:33.:38:41.

Why has her publicly waited so patiently for her? We asked the man

:38:42.:38:48.

who made her debut video, so memorable, her mime coach. Yes, for

:38:49.:38:58.

the first time on British TV it is mime on Skype! It was 1976 and it

:38:59.:39:06.

was at the dance centre in London's Covent Garden, I was teaching

:39:07.:39:13.

classes there. She came to one of the classes totally unknown, without

:39:14.:39:19.

real training, in my definition. But there was something about Kate even

:39:20.:39:25.

then as unformed as she was so many decades ago, there was a spark

:39:26.:39:34.

within her one could say that she was filled with some kind of

:39:35.:39:40.

internal light. # Oh he's here again

:39:41.:39:47.

# The man with the child in his eyes She will be here for another 21

:39:48.:39:58.

nights, only. We have whisked two very special

:39:59.:40:02.

reviewers out of the gig early and into the studio to give us a flavour

:40:03.:40:06.

of what it was like, Gemma Arterton is here as well as the musician Anna

:40:07.:40:11.

Calvi. Gemma firstly to you, what was it like what it what you

:40:12.:40:17.

expected? No. I think everybody was so excited just to see her, and when

:40:18.:40:22.

we arrived the expectation from the audience was immense. There was just

:40:23.:40:26.

so much love coming from them and so much excitement, and then she kind

:40:27.:40:31.

of launched into a typical rock sort of gig. Which wasn't what we

:40:32.:40:38.

expected? It was kind of like, OK, this is cool, but you know you

:40:39.:40:42.

expected something more and then suddenly the show went into the most

:40:43.:40:49.

crazy kind of imaginative, creative world which is what is so amazing

:40:50.:40:54.

about Kate Bush. It felt like her brain that you were inside her mind.

:40:55.:41:00.

Yeah. We have got some stills, some images of what it was like tonight

:41:01.:41:05.

that we can bring up now you say a crazy imaginative creative world,

:41:06.:41:08.

like her brain. What was that, what are we looking at on stage? So she

:41:09.:41:14.

did, in the first half she did sort of like a performance theatre, it

:41:15.:41:21.

felt like musical theatre or opera based to her ninth wave, second half

:41:22.:41:30.

of her Hounds of Love album, a ship wreck and being stranded at sea.

:41:31.:41:34.

What year was that album out? I don't know, I feel like it is the

:41:35.:41:38.

year I was born, or even maybe before I was born. But some time a

:41:39.:41:44.

long time ago. So she didn't commit that sin that musicians sometimes do

:41:45.:41:48.

of coming on, playing all the new tunes to the fans and not giving

:41:49.:41:52.

them any old hits? No, I mean there was a combination. She did Hounds of

:41:53.:41:58.

Love, she did Running up the Hill, that was a high lie. The audience

:41:59.:42:01.

stood up and there was such an energy. She did stuff from Aerial,

:42:02.:42:09.

which was released in 2005. She did a whole section on Aerial, it was

:42:10.:42:12.

stunning. One of the interesting things about this though, both of

:42:13.:42:17.

you, if I'm correct and correct me if I'm wrong weren't born the last

:42:18.:42:22.

time she performed on stage. She was an exceptional artist at the time,

:42:23.:42:25.

why do you think it is she's translated to a whole new

:42:26.:42:29.

generation, how did you become a fan in the first place? I think a friend

:42:30.:42:34.

introduced me to her music, as a single currencying I was struck at

:42:35.:42:38.

how she can really channel so many different characters. But they all

:42:39.:42:42.

feel very uniquely her, she used these characters as tools to create

:42:43.:42:47.

something incredibly personal and I think that's a very rare thing for

:42:48.:42:52.

someone to be able to do that. Gemma, what about for you? I think

:42:53.:42:58.

it was my mum and my sister, it was my mum that got me on to her. And

:42:59.:43:04.

again it was her story telling and also her inate absolute expression

:43:05.:43:10.

of feminity that was so at the time, and it wasn't a sexualised thing.

:43:11.:43:15.

She felt like your big sister or something? Yeah, and just really

:43:16.:43:19.

loving and a lot of her music, some of it is quite scary and I remember

:43:20.:43:25.

as a kid I was always scared by her stuff,

:43:26.:43:29.

as a kid I was always scared by her feminine. It is really the most

:43:30.:43:31.

original female singer I feminine. It is really the most

:43:32.:43:38.

brilliant musicians but feminine. It is really the most

:43:39.:43:42.

first one. Some people would look at that and say what you describe as

:43:43.:43:46.

being original as, in the nicest possible way, a bit bonkers? Yeah.

:43:47.:43:52.

But it is. I think she is celebrating absurdity, the absurdity

:43:53.:43:54.

of life, and she's showing the beauty in it. The things that she

:43:55.:43:59.

talk about are incredibly simple about watching the sunrise, about

:44:00.:44:04.

taking out the washing and she shows you how beautiful they are, and this

:44:05.:44:08.

is the kind of best thing about art, when it does this, when it

:44:09.:44:11.

transforms you and makes you see the simple things in a profound way. A

:44:12.:44:15.

very simple simple things in a profound way. A

:44:16.:44:20.

years on, if you think back to the extraordinary vocal performances

:44:21.:44:23.

years on, if you think back to the suppose, something like Wuthering

:44:24.:44:23.

Heighfs. Tonight how was her suppose, something like Wuthering

:44:24.:44:27.

can she still deliver the performances in the way she did?

:44:28.:44:31.

Absolutely. As the show went on it got better and better, you could

:44:32.:44:34.

feel at the beginning she was a bit nervous and everyone was rooting for

:44:35.:44:35.

her. And then as the gig nervous and everyone was rooting for

:44:36.:44:46.

like some kind of ultimate, magical family reunion? It was

:44:47.:44:48.

like some kind of ultimate, magical best shows I have ever been to.

:44:49.:44:51.

Everything about it was just, best shows I have ever been to.

:44:52.:44:57.

energy. Even if I wasn't a big Kate Bush

:44:58.:45:01.

energy. Even if I wasn't a big Kate everything about it was so high, the

:45:02.:45:03.

quality of everything was so high everything about it was so high, the

:45:04.:45:07.

that with musical, everything about it was so high, the

:45:08.:45:09.

stuff. It was like a whole everything about it was so high, the

:45:10.:45:14.

and... The detail was very unique. And her son, her son. It was family

:45:15.:45:19.

affair, what happened with her son? Her son was in the whole thing, he

:45:20.:45:23.

was there as a backing dancer and then as part of the the show. He was

:45:24.:45:32.

like an MC, he guided it, especially the Aerial

:45:33.:45:33.

like an MC, he guided it, especially in the section and he does a whole

:45:34.:45:39.

musical number. She was keeping it in the family and it was touching.

:45:40.:45:41.

She pushes the world in the family and it was touching.

:45:42.:45:46.

her to open her life to an audience. Very briefly, one of the things she

:45:47.:45:50.

did try to push away was people using their phone, whatever they

:45:51.:45:56.

had, their gadgets in their pockets and whatever they had in their

:45:57.:46:00.

pockets, did people stick to the rule? Yeah, everyone there was so

:46:01.:46:06.

appreciative of how special the night was, especially the opening

:46:07.:46:09.

night. It felt like everybody just wanted to be present. It was amazing

:46:10.:46:16.

yeah. Thank you both so much. I feel I ought to apologise for dragging

:46:17.:46:20.

you away early, we are glad you Z a quick look at the papers and there

:46:21.:46:24.

she is in front of all of them. Bush been on the front of the Guardian.

:46:25.:46:41.

That's all we have time for tonight, good night.

:46:42.:47:06.

Wednesday, places dry with sunny spells, but some outbreaks of rain

:47:07.:47:09.

heading to south-west England and South Wales. Cloud increasing with

:47:10.:47:13.

Northern Ireland, another lovely day in Scotland. Where you have the

:47:14.:47:17.

sunshine it will feel pleasantly warm. Chilly start and one or two

:47:18.:47:24.

fog patches clearing, another lovely day. A fine day in northern England,

:47:25.:47:26.

Lasting truce in Gaza? The Rotherham abuse inquiry, Nigel Farage interviewed, an ex-Nato general calls for rearmament, and Kate Bush reviewed. With Laura Kuenssberg.


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