02/09/2014 Newsnight


02/09/2014

Analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, presented by Andrew Neil. America reacts to another ISIS murder. Scotland polls narrow. Old age care. Is Latin pointless?


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Jihadists in Iraq behead a second American journalist. Last week

:00:08.:00:15.

President Obama said he didn'ted yet have a strategy for dealing with

:00:16.:00:18.

Islamic State, will this now concentrate his mind. The Islamic

:00:19.:00:24.

State made Sotloff deliver a message to President Obama direct into the

:00:25.:00:28.

camera before murdering him. But a stronger American or British

:00:29.:00:30.

military response may be just what they are trying to provoke. Here in

:00:31.:00:36.

Iraq the question has been why attack Islamic State here and not

:00:37.:00:39.

across the border in Syria. Well that question may now be provided

:00:40.:00:46.

with an answer. The former US Ambassador to NATO will join us.

:00:47.:00:52.

Those against Scottish independence used to have a lead of 20 points

:00:53.:00:56.

over the nationalists. Now it is down to six, how did they manage to

:00:57.:01:03.

throw away such a commanding lead? We ask Better Together's Jim Murphy.

:01:04.:01:09.

Also tonight: Some other folk maybe have lived a nice life and enjoyed

:01:10.:01:13.

themselves, spent their money, had holidays, and they still get the

:01:14.:01:17.

same treatment that my mum gets, but my mum is having to pay for it. A

:01:18.:01:22.

first look at a major new report into how we should manage care for

:01:23.:01:37.

the elderly in the 21st century. They did it once by gruesome video,

:01:38.:01:41.

it was probably only matter of time before they did it again. Two weeks

:01:42.:01:45.

after beheading James Foley, Islamic State tonight revealed it murdered a

:01:46.:01:50.

second US journalist, Time Magazine's Sotloff, another barbaric

:01:51.:01:54.

beheading, another unwatchable video, the same British accent

:01:55.:01:58.

behind the mask and the knife. He claimed a British hostage will be

:01:59.:02:02.

murdered next and unless America called off its attack on IS

:02:03.:02:14.

positions. Gatehouse is in Erbil in Iraq. IS are doing this because they

:02:15.:02:24.

want America to stop attacks, is it likely that America will widen

:02:25.:02:27.

attacks into Syria? It is unlikely America will be provoked into any

:02:28.:02:32.

kneejerk reaction. They knew Sotloff was being held and they knew his

:02:33.:02:36.

life was in danger. Whilst President Obama said they didn't have a

:02:37.:02:39.

strategy in place, what he most likely meant by that is they hadn't

:02:40.:02:43.

decided which strategy to follow yet, and they certainly didn't have

:02:44.:02:47.

a strategy that they were willing to share publicly yet. I think it is

:02:48.:02:51.

unlikely they will be provoked into anything rash, there certainly will

:02:52.:02:54.

be a lot more pressure on President Obama to readdress the balance, as

:02:55.:03:02.

it were, the balance of his policy of hitting IS here inside Iraq and

:03:03.:03:07.

not inside Syria. This is effectively now one war. I have seen

:03:08.:03:11.

on the ground the dramatic effects that US air strikes against IS have

:03:12.:03:15.

had there. Not only have they held IS away from this city here, Erbil,

:03:16.:03:19.

which did a few weeks ago look like it might be seriously threatened,

:03:20.:03:22.

but only yesterday some American air strikes managed to break the siege

:03:23.:03:32.

around the south from here that was under siege for three months by

:03:33.:03:37.

Islamic State, and the Americans bombing there, in support of a very

:03:38.:03:39.

unlikely coalition of not only the Iraqi army and Kurdish Peshmerga,

:03:40.:03:44.

but also Shia militias that are funded and supported by Iran. Those

:03:45.:03:48.

air strikes had a very dramatic effect in breaking that siege almost

:03:49.:03:52.

immediately. So the pressure, I think, to do something similar in

:03:53.:03:58.

Syria will certainly be on. That could be the explanation for the

:03:59.:04:01.

latest atrocity from the Islamic State, that the American air strikes

:04:02.:04:06.

are having a real effect, that they are even losing ground, that they

:04:07.:04:10.

had gained until the American air strikes came in, backed up by on the

:04:11.:04:17.

ground forces from local competents? That's certainly true. They have

:04:18.:04:20.

been losing ground here in Iraq, where they haven't really been

:04:21.:04:24.

losing ground is across the border in Syria. I was there in

:04:25.:04:28.

Kurdish-controlled northern Syria last week. I was on the Kurdish

:04:29.:04:32.

frontlines with IS, and while the Kurdish fighters there are doing a

:04:33.:04:36.

pretty competent job with the limited resources they have of

:04:37.:04:40.

keeping Islamic State out of their territory and holding them at bay,

:04:41.:04:45.

certainly the Kurds don't have the resources to dent Islamic State any

:04:46.:04:49.

further than that. Commanders there told me they would welcome any

:04:50.:04:52.

support they could get from the Americans or frankly whoever else,

:04:53.:04:56.

in their battle with the Islamic State. They have been going at it

:04:57.:05:01.

for over two years now, and the Kurds and frankly everyone else know

:05:02.:05:04.

that the Kurd are not going to be able to Islamic State on their own.

:05:05.:05:15.

All eyes on Washington and London for a response. A

:05:16.:05:24.

This second message closely follows the pattern of the one released a

:05:25.:05:28.

fortnight ago, showing the last moments of James Foley. Some topical

:05:29.:05:32.

references suggest this one was done recently. The hooded man beside the

:05:33.:05:37.

captive also seems to be the same British accented figure as in the

:05:38.:05:44.

Foley video. I'm back Obama and I am beak because of your foreign policy

:05:45.:05:50.

towards the Islamic State, and continuing the bombings. The Obama

:05:51.:05:56.

administration in Washington reacted swiftly to the second piece of

:05:57.:06:01.

choreographed horror. We have seen reports of a video that purports to

:06:02.:06:08.

be the murder of US citizen Sotloff by Islamic State, we will work to

:06:09.:06:13.

determine the authenticity, if the video is genuine, we are sickened by

:06:14.:06:19.

this brutal attack taking the life of another American citizen, our

:06:20.:06:24.

hearts go out to the Sotloff family. The US has mounted 120 aair strikes

:06:25.:06:32.

against IS. Two-thirds around the Mosul dam. The question now is

:06:33.:06:35.

whether they will hit the group in Syria. The Foley beheading video was

:06:36.:06:46.

thought to be filmed south of Raqqa the main Syrian base. The question

:06:47.:06:53.

of whether to hit targets in Syria is still in the White House and

:06:54.:06:58.

leaving President Obama adrift. We haven't a strategy yet what I have

:06:59.:07:02.

seen in some of the news reports suggests that folks are getting a

:07:03.:07:09.

little further ahead of where we are at than we currently are. Sotloff's

:07:10.:07:14.

family gathered this evening at their home in Florida where they

:07:15.:07:18.

were said to be grieving privately. Today's news followed all manner of

:07:19.:07:22.

pleas for mercy, including those of the journalist's mother, Shirley.

:07:23.:07:26.

Stephen has no control over the actions of the US Government. He's

:07:27.:07:34.

an innocent journalist. I have always learned that you can grant

:07:35.:07:40.

amnesty, I ask you to please release my child. Britain has already

:07:41.:07:46.

deployed tornadoes to Turkey for operations over Iraq. So far it has

:07:47.:07:51.

just been reconnaissance missions, will they now drop bombs. Threats

:07:52.:07:55.

tonight by ISIS against a British hostage makes the Government's

:07:56.:07:58.

decision even harder. The question always is of course about military

:07:59.:08:03.

action, are you satisfied that to take military action will leave

:08:04.:08:08.

things better than before. Can it be proportionate, can you be

:08:09.:08:11.

sufficiently targeted so as not to cause that terrible euphamism

:08:12.:08:18.

"collateral damage". Will it be effective. In Iraq there have been

:08:19.:08:25.

small gains against ISIS this week. The question for Britain and America

:08:26.:08:30.

is whether expanding their military operations could win further

:08:31.:08:35.

tactical success, at the expense of giving the Jihadists the battle

:08:36.:08:40.

against the west they crave. Our reporter Secunder Kermani has been

:08:41.:08:45.

in touch with a number of British Jihadists fighting with Islamic

:08:46.:08:49.

State over the past week. What have you been hearing about what they are

:08:50.:08:53.

saying about the latest video? I have been in touch with two British

:08:54.:08:56.

members of Islamic State this evening. They both support Islamic

:08:57.:09:02.

State's actions here. They say the killing of Sotloff was justified

:09:03.:09:10.

because according to them that America had the opportunity to

:09:11.:09:15.

negotiate with IS and agree to stop attacking IS positions in Iraq. They

:09:16.:09:20.

say the killing of Sotloff was justified Islamically, despite under

:09:21.:09:25.

most interpretations of Islamic law Sotloff as a journalists would have

:09:26.:09:29.

been considered a non-competent. Do they think by beheading American

:09:30.:09:33.

journalists they will change American policy? The two men I was

:09:34.:09:38.

speaking to they seemed to relish the prospect of greater western

:09:39.:09:41.

military intervention in Iraq. They want to see partitioned American

:09:42.:09:45.

troops on the ground in the region, because quite frankly they say they

:09:46.:09:48.

want the opportunity to fight them and kill them. As we heard from

:09:49.:09:53.

Erbil there, they are also suffering from these American attacks. This

:09:54.:09:56.

could also be a sign of weakness? Well of course, I mean everything

:09:57.:10:00.

they say must be treated with a bit of caution. There is inevitably an

:10:01.:10:05.

element of bravado there. It seems to me that they see this as a sort

:10:06.:10:10.

of ultimate showdown that is inevitable of a fight between the

:10:11.:10:14.

west and the Islamic State. They think it is inevitable? And the

:10:15.:10:18.

British accent again, are we any closer to knowing who this person

:10:19.:10:22.

is? Apparently it seems it is the same man who appeared in the video

:10:23.:10:27.

of the murder of James Foley a few weeks back. The British IS members

:10:28.:10:31.

that I have been speaking to say they don't know who he is. They do

:10:32.:10:34.

say it is not any of the people who have been named in the British media

:10:35.:10:38.

so far. But they say his identity is being closely guarded by the

:10:39.:10:44.

internal Security Services of the Islamic State, the Amniate. They

:10:45.:10:49.

have their only internal security? They are able to keep a secret, the

:10:50.:10:56.

British men I spoke to said they hadn't seen the video and were not

:10:57.:11:01.

aware of it. I'm joined now by Roy Stewart, the Tory MP who chairs the

:11:02.:11:05.

Commons Defence Select Committee, and we're joined by the former

:11:06.:11:10.

United States permanent representative to NATO. How should

:11:11.:11:15.

America respond to this latest atrocity? I think to choose the

:11:16.:11:20.

words of President Obama we need a strategy. We need to actually think

:11:21.:11:24.

about what are the appropriate goals that we need to have to wrap up what

:11:25.:11:31.

is truly an amazingly brutal, evil force in Syria and Iraq that is

:11:32.:11:36.

destablising the region, threatening allies in the region and a grave

:11:37.:11:39.

threat to our own societies. I think in order to set a goal of

:11:40.:11:43.

eliminating ISIS we are going to have to work with a lot of regional

:11:44.:11:48.

players, especially Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Turkey, Jordan, the Iraqi

:11:49.:11:52.

forces and Kurdistan, in order to go after ISIS. I think we want to

:11:53.:11:56.

minimise the degree to which there are direct western boots on the

:11:57.:12:00.

ground. But it will take a concerted effort, which will require American

:12:01.:12:03.

leadership to help pull it together. It will require a willingness to put

:12:04.:12:08.

military force in play. What should the British reaction should be?

:12:09.:12:11.

Britain needs to follow very, very carefully this American debate. If

:12:12.:12:14.

President Obama is currently saying that he doesn't have a strategy, we

:12:15.:12:22.

have to be very cautious. But the key question is this very different

:12:23.:12:27.

to what we dealt with in 2007/2008. Is the Islamic State fundamentally

:12:28.:12:32.

different from Al-Qaeda/Iraq? If it isn't what are the options. It looks

:12:33.:12:37.

like it is, it looks like it will control a bit of territory? Al-Qaeda

:12:38.:12:46.

were guests in Afghan stance? We pumped in over $100 billion US a

:12:47.:12:53.

year and hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground and four years

:12:54.:12:56.

later it is back again. The problem the President is facing is he's

:12:57.:12:59.

looking at dealing with a bigger threat with fewer resources and

:13:00.:13:04.

trying to do without boots on the ground. What should the strategy be,

:13:05.:13:09.

he says he doesn't have one, should he for example extend the bombing,

:13:10.:13:13.

which actually seems to be quite effective against IS in Iraq. Should

:13:14.:13:18.

he extend that into Syria where they are also based? I think bombing

:13:19.:13:24.

alone is not sufficient but a necessary part. I think you need to

:13:25.:13:29.

have an approach towards supporting a moderate rebellion inside Syria to

:13:30.:13:32.

try to bring about a change of regime that is going to get Assad

:13:33.:13:38.

out of power, which is part of what has permented this ISIS -- fermented

:13:39.:13:43.

this ISIS rebellion. That is Then you need to go after ISIS itself.

:13:44.:13:47.

The biggest threat at the moment is ISIS, we need to be going after that

:13:48.:13:51.

on both sides of the border. ISIS doesn't respect any differences of

:13:52.:13:55.

the border. Assad attacked on the other side of the border, the Iraqi

:13:56.:13:59.

army is prepared to do its part inside Iraq, but that is a weak

:14:00.:14:02.

army. They need the additional support. We need the states of the

:14:03.:14:06.

region, and again I emphasise the key Sunni states that we have worked

:14:07.:14:11.

with in the past, sometimes called allies, but Saudi Arabia, the UAE,

:14:12.:14:17.

Turkey, Jordan, in order to create a regional framework for getting

:14:18.:14:19.

control back over the territories, as Mr Stewart was saying the Sunni

:14:20.:14:26.

tribes inside Iraq were the key to up ending Al-Qaeda in Iraq before. I

:14:27.:14:30.

think they will be the key to up ending ISIS as well. They don't

:14:31.:14:34.

relish being ruled by this medieval group. There is a point resonating

:14:35.:14:38.

with a lot of people in the west, why aren't those in the region who

:14:39.:14:42.

have most to fear from IS do more about it? Do we have any evidence

:14:43.:14:48.

that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE, Jordan, are going to get involved in

:14:49.:14:51.

this? This is the big fundamental question. Of course ideally Saudi,

:14:52.:14:57.

Turkey, Iran, others will be motivated, but so far they haven't

:14:58.:15:02.

been. The fighters are often moving through Turkey. There is evidence

:15:03.:15:04.

that some of the funding going into the Islamic State has come out of

:15:05.:15:08.

the gulf states. We have a hope that they are going to feel that these

:15:09.:15:12.

people are a danger to themselves. But our experience unfortunately

:15:13.:15:15.

across the world is regional states often find that difficult to

:15:16.:15:19.

believe. So they will make proper statement about it but getting them

:15:20.:15:21.

to do something will be more difficult. The President has been

:15:22.:15:27.

remarkably reluctant to get involved in this. At every opportunity he has

:15:28.:15:31.

put one step forward and then tried to take two steps back. But in that

:15:32.:15:36.

is he perhaps reflecting the mood of the American people? That they don't

:15:37.:15:42.

want to get involved? It is always hard to judge that. I think the

:15:43.:15:46.

President is reflecting his own instincts, his political calculus.

:15:47.:15:50.

He wants to be the President that pulls the US out of wars and doesn't

:15:51.:15:55.

send the military in as a way of engaging the United States in

:15:56.:15:59.

conflict. The American people, I think, indeed fatigue bid the wars

:16:00.:16:03.

in Iraq and Afghanistan, but at the same time terrified by what they see

:16:04.:16:08.

on television with these beheadings, and the threats to the United States

:16:09.:16:12.

from all the Islamist groups. Frankly we see a chaotic situation

:16:13.:16:17.

around the world, whether it is in Russia or in Iraq and Syria that we

:16:18.:16:22.

are talking about now. It seems to be spring out of control. I think

:16:23.:16:25.

the Americans are actually also looking for a strategy that they can

:16:26.:16:28.

believe in that's going to help try to keep the country safe. And the

:16:29.:16:32.

British people are war weary as well, they hate what is happening

:16:33.:16:37.

but they have no appetite for deep involvement beyond air strikes if

:16:38.:16:40.

that? That's true and it is also true, as the ambassador said that we

:16:41.:16:44.

have a lot of experience in trying to deal with these kinds of

:16:45.:16:48.

insurgies, but the things that the United States and Britain feel is

:16:49.:16:51.

necessary, an effective state in Baghdad, a good regional solution,

:16:52.:16:56.

these things so far doesn't exist. The chances of a caliphate, this

:16:57.:17:01.

time next year? Effectively what they have set up is pretty much

:17:02.:17:07.

something close to that in eastern Syria and Iraq. Now just over two

:17:08.:17:15.

weeks until the referendum in Scotland, the latest poll suggest

:17:16.:17:19.

the pro-independence campaign may be closing the gap on its rivals. The

:17:20.:17:24.

latest poll for YouGov suggests once you take out the undecided voters

:17:25.:17:31.

47% would vote yes, 53% no. The majority for the union but a lot

:17:32.:17:33.

smaller than it was. Only a month ago, there has been a lot of debate

:17:34.:17:38.

about how prepared Scotland is for the consequences of a yes vote. What

:17:39.:17:41.

are the implication force the rest of the UK. Here is the BBC Economics

:17:42.:17:45.

Editor. Could it be the end of a not always

:17:46.:17:49.

blissful marriage, divorce. The tearing up of the Union Flag and the

:17:50.:17:55.

acts of union that have bound Scotland together with the rest of

:17:56.:18:00.

the UK for more than 300 years. Up until now all the debate, all the

:18:01.:18:04.

aggro about Scottish independence have been really around what it

:18:05.:18:08.

moons for Scotland. But -- means for Scotland. But with the polls

:18:09.:18:12.

narrowing the penny has dropped and actually if Scotland were to

:18:13.:18:15.

break-away from the rest of the UK, that would have profound implication

:18:16.:18:18.

force those who live in Northern Ireland, Wales and England. Now it

:18:19.:18:24.

wasn't just the penny dropping, the pound fell very sharply today, to

:18:25.:18:31.

its lowest level against the dollar since march. March. The bound fell

:18:32.:18:38.

because currency markets are the most sensitive to political

:18:39.:18:41.

uncertainty, it tells you that political uncertainty for the UK has

:18:42.:18:45.

gone up. As a result the largest mover, the largest UK assets, price

:18:46.:18:50.

movement today was sterling. It would take months if not years to

:18:51.:18:54.

difficulty up the assets and liabilities of the UK, what impact

:18:55.:18:58.

would the uncertainty of all of that have on the economy? I think it

:18:59.:19:03.

would create uncertainty, because as you say we wouldn't know who would

:19:04.:19:07.

end up with what, and as a result of that you would probably find some

:19:08.:19:11.

business investment put on hold during that period, the economy

:19:12.:19:13.

would be weaker. It would make it much harder for the Bank of England

:19:14.:19:16.

to hike interest rates just at the point in time when at the moment

:19:17.:19:19.

they are indicating that is when they would start. So if Scotland

:19:20.:19:23.

does break-away, how will the assets and liabilities of this country be

:19:24.:19:27.

divided up? How difficult will it be to reach a settlement?

:19:28.:19:33.

You are a Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service, if you were

:19:34.:19:36.

facing the prospect of having to separate Scotland from the rest of

:19:37.:19:41.

the UK, how would you be feeling today? I would be feeling pretty

:19:42.:19:46.

daunted and thinking this was a bigger task than I ever had to face.

:19:47.:19:52.

It is a major exercise trying to unpick a constitutional settlement

:19:53.:20:00.

built up over 300 years. Alex Salmond hopes and believes the

:20:01.:20:03.

negotiations on separation would not take more than 18 months, is that

:20:04.:20:08.

realistic? I very much doubt it. He wants it done in a year-and-a-half,

:20:09.:20:14.

the rest of the UK Government why should they dance to that deadline.

:20:15.:20:22.

I'm reminded of the made up Chinese proverb, "he who has the shortest

:20:23.:20:26.

deadline needs the deepest pocket". What about the thousands and

:20:27.:20:31.

thousands of civil servants based in Scotland who work for the whole of

:20:32.:20:34.

the UK, who would happen to them? I don't know the exact number but it

:20:35.:20:39.

is in tens of thousands, we, for many years ran a programme of

:20:40.:20:44.

dispersal. You remember the Hardman Report, and we deliberately placed

:20:45.:20:51.

more, a disproportionate number of civil servants in Scotland, in HMRC,

:20:52.:20:59.

DWP, all with major operations in Scotland. Way beyond what was needed

:21:00.:21:05.

to serve Scotland. They would all have to be repatriated. Leaving just

:21:06.:21:12.

the share that is needed for the 10% of the Scottish population. And what

:21:13.:21:17.

will be the collateral damage through separation, in Northern

:21:18.:21:26.

Ireland, Scotland and Wales and politics. If the vote was lost that

:21:27.:21:37.

would be a massive humiliation, and some Tory MPs have said to me they

:21:38.:21:41.

fear he would have to stand down. It is not only the Prime Minister who

:21:42.:21:45.

is anxious about Scots voting to separate. The implications for Ed

:21:46.:21:52.

Miliband and Labour would be seriously bad. Since the Second

:21:53.:21:55.

World War Labour and the Tories have won an equal number of general

:21:56.:21:59.

elections, and according to research done by the BBC, without Scotland

:22:00.:22:04.

Labour would have won two fewer. The thing is over the past 20 years

:22:05.:22:09.

Labour in that place has become even more dependant on MPs elected in

:22:10.:22:16.

Scotland. So without Scotland Labour's ability to win elections in

:22:17.:22:21.

the rest of the UK would be seriously impaired.

:22:22.:22:25.

Central London, Westminster, calm waters for now, but if the Scots

:22:26.:22:29.

decide they have enough of marriage to the rest of the UK, my goodness

:22:30.:22:35.

there will be mayhem. That was the consequences for the

:22:36.:22:39.

rest of the UK of Scottish independent. There. There is a

:22:40.:22:46.

longer version on iPlayer. I spoke to Murphy from the Better --

:22:47.:22:51.

Jim Murphy from the Better Together campaign, I asked why were the polls

:22:52.:22:56.

showing in favour of breaking up the union? I would rather be in

:22:57.:23:01.

discussions about our arguments and our report than the nationalists

:23:02.:23:06.

that are lagging in the poll. In one poll they have closed the gap but we

:23:07.:23:10.

are in the lead with the stronger argument. Why is it not cutting

:23:11.:23:14.

through with your own voters, a lot more Labour voters are saying now

:23:15.:23:17.

that they would vote for independence than were telling the

:23:18.:23:20.

pollsters only two or three months ago. Why are you losing the argument

:23:21.:23:24.

among your own people? We're not losing the argument. The vast

:23:25.:23:28.

majority of Labour voters are voting no, but we have more work to do. One

:23:29.:23:32.

of the arguments is the SNP have campaigned for two years and they

:23:33.:23:38.

have failed to turn patriotic Scots into nationalist Scots. Rather than

:23:39.:23:41.

convince patriots to become nationalists they have tried to

:23:42.:23:45.

scare Scots into being yes voters. I have heard you make the argument

:23:46.:23:49.

many times, but the polls are moving against you, it is not working.

:23:50.:23:51.

Downing Street has said tonight there is no need to change the

:23:52.:23:55.

Better Together campaign, do you agree with that? Absolutely. Mitch

:23:56.:24:03.

Alastair Darling is doing a great job. He is a brilliant job, a lead

:24:04.:24:09.

of 20 points now down to six, which definition of brilliance would that

:24:10.:24:15.

cover? Alastair Darling is leading the campaign effectively. He has

:24:16.:24:18.

brought together a Labour Party, Conservative Party and Liberal

:24:19.:24:21.

Democrats who normally punch one another in the nose, Mitch Darling's

:24:22.:24:26.

personality of being a bridge builder or conciliator has been a

:24:27.:24:30.

great advantage to this campaign. Also other permties such as Gordon

:24:31.:24:35.

Brown -- personalities and Gordon Brown and John Reid out campaigning

:24:36.:24:40.

on behalf of the Labour Party and Better Together, I'm confident we

:24:41.:24:43.

can win, we have a lot of work to do. I would rather be ahead in the

:24:44.:24:48.

polls than behind like the nationalists. Whatever the poll

:24:49.:24:54.

rating they welcome it, it is part of nationalism. We are determined

:24:55.:24:58.

and we can win this. The stakes are especially high for you and your

:24:59.:25:01.

party. If Scotland goes independent it will be much more difficult for

:25:02.:25:05.

you to form a Labour Government ever again, not ever again, but more

:25:06.:25:08.

difficult for you to have an overall majority in England and the rest of

:25:09.:25:13.

the UK, correct? You won't like me saying that, I don't really care

:25:14.:25:15.

about that, this is about whether the UK, the most successful of all

:25:16.:25:21.

union nations in the world has ever known whether it survives and we

:25:22.:25:24.

stick together. Scotland's place within the UK, a place within the

:25:25.:25:28.

European Union and the world. You would rather have a United Kingdom

:25:29.:25:35.

and no Labour not in the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying? Of

:25:36.:25:38.

course Andrew, that is the type of question that people ask all the

:25:39.:25:41.

time, they have asked over the past two years of the referendum. That is

:25:42.:25:44.

not what I'm saying and you know that's not what I'm saying. I'm

:25:45.:25:48.

saying of course there are implication for all political

:25:49.:25:50.

parties, political leaders and every politician, but every politician is

:25:51.:25:54.

temporary, every Government is temporary, independence is forever.

:25:55.:25:57.

Therefore what happens to the Labour Party, what happens to the Tory

:25:58.:25:59.

Party, what happens to the Liberal Democrats and all of the others, it

:26:00.:26:03.

is important but a secondary importance in deciding this historic

:26:04.:26:07.

outcome as to whether Scotland remains part of the UK. If Scotland

:26:08.:26:12.

votes for independence on September 18th, will run again as an MP for

:26:13.:26:18.

your constituency in May? Of course I would. But there is a complication

:26:19.:26:24.

here which your viewers know which is referendum day is September 18th,

:26:25.:26:30.

we have a general election next year with Independence Day not scheduled

:26:31.:26:34.

until March 2016. There is a peculiar arrangement we would have a

:26:35.:26:37.

House of Commons for a year if that was to happen. You would be an MP

:26:38.:26:41.

for what would be becoming a foreign country? It would be a peculiar set

:26:42.:26:44.

of arrangements but those are the rules. We don't have to do that or

:26:45.:26:48.

take that unusual and unnecessary risk here in Scotland. The fact is

:26:49.:26:51.

we can stick together. Politicians on all sides up here are much more

:26:52.:26:55.

worried about what happens to the people who work in financial

:26:56.:26:59.

service, who rely on the connections across the United Kingdom, sharing a

:27:00.:27:03.

common currency and I'm doing this interview on the banks of the River

:27:04.:27:10.

Clyde and I'm more worried about the thousands of shipyard jobs relying

:27:11.:27:14.

on the Royal Navy contracts in Clyde. We are looking forward to

:27:15.:27:17.

discussing that between now and referendum day, I'm confident we can

:27:18.:27:21.

win. It looks from the outside the campaign has turned nasty in recent

:27:22.:27:27.

week, way beyond the cyber unionist, you have been on the receiving end

:27:28.:27:31.

of this, why is it turning so nasty? I have been on the receiving end of

:27:32.:27:36.

it, and most of your viewers won't know about the phenomenon of cyber

:27:37.:27:41.

nats, intolerant of anyone who disagrees, and rounding on people on

:27:42.:27:51.

social networks and going on now. After Alastair Darling won in the TV

:27:52.:27:55.

debate it turned nasty for me on the street. I have been touring in

:27:56.:27:59.

hundreds of street corner meetings over 100 days, they have been great

:28:00.:28:03.

and passionate and people from all sides coming up. It took sans at the

:28:04.:28:09.

turn where there were mobs of yes voters who wouldn't allow anyone

:28:10.:28:13.

else an opinion. I had to suspend the campaign for three days over the

:28:14.:28:18.

weekend. I'm glad when I got back to my makeshift stage that whoever had

:28:19.:28:24.

turned on that noisy mob had quietly over the weekend turned it off

:28:25.:28:27.

again. You were implying it was one person switching on or off the

:28:28.:28:32.

nastiness, you are not accusing Alex Salmond of that? No I haven't done

:28:33.:28:37.

that, wherever I was going the yes Scotland offices co-ordinated

:28:38.:28:40.

through Facebook and Twitter and all sorts of other ways, and ways of

:28:41.:28:46.

organising a reception party, people who just wanted to be involved in

:28:47.:28:51.

these conversations in the political debate, passionate people on both

:28:52.:28:55.

sides, we worried for their safety. As a consequence we had to postpone

:28:56.:29:00.

the tour two three days, it is up and running again, I'm looking

:29:01.:29:03.

forward to getting out and having the great debate out on street

:29:04.:29:06.

corners in Scotland. Thank you for being with us tonight.

:29:07.:29:12.

Care homes for old folks don't always have a great reputation, only

:29:13.:29:15.

a quarter of us would consider moving into one, even if we became

:29:16.:29:19.

too fragile to look after ourselves in old at age. Paul Burstow has

:29:20.:29:24.

spent a year looking at what can be done to change that perception. His

:29:25.:29:29.

work for Demos at a London think-tank looked at how to provide

:29:30.:29:33.

interstandards of care for -- standards of care for an

:29:34.:29:36.

increasingly elderly population. We have been hearing from the residents

:29:37.:29:38.

of care home in Kent. I was on my own at home and I had

:29:39.:30:03.

heard about these homes and I thought perhaps it is a good thing.

:30:04.:30:09.

So I inquired, got all the details about it and that's how I happened

:30:10.:30:15.

to be here. So there is no more to it than that, actually. I have been

:30:16.:30:22.

here now since the beginning of the year. It is nice to have a bit of

:30:23.:30:29.

company. Because it gets very lonely when you're on your own, you talk to

:30:30.:30:38.

yourself. I have a ring round here, that is my granddad. He was a

:30:39.:30:43.

gymnast. I have heard a lot about some of these homes and this seems

:30:44.:30:53.

pretty good. The staff are good here. This was taken at Ashdown

:30:54.:31:00.

Forest. That is you on the motorbike.

:31:01.:31:04.

Mum is self-funded, rather a lot of money. It is just short of about

:31:05.:31:12.

?1,000 a week. It was the family home that had to be sold, I feel

:31:13.:31:18.

sadder because it was sentimental, it was always my home from when I

:31:19.:31:23.

was born, mum always insisted, as did my father that it would be there

:31:24.:31:29.

for me and that was her wish. My mum has saved all her life, she has gone

:31:30.:31:36.

without things like butter to put money aside, some other folk have

:31:37.:31:40.

lived a nice life and enjoyed themselves, spent their money, had

:31:41.:31:44.

holidays and they still get the same treatment that my mum gets, but my

:31:45.:31:49.

mum is having to pay for it. To be honest, I did find that a little

:31:50.:32:08.

unfair. You are very, very nice. I didn't decide, they sent me here,

:32:09.:32:14.

the doctor said, I don't know, they just put me here and I woke up and

:32:15.:32:19.

there I am, away, I ain't been back since. I did have an accident and I

:32:20.:32:36.

seemed to have lost my memory, I seem to have picked it up now and I

:32:37.:32:40.

know what they are talking about, but it was hard for a little while.

:32:41.:32:51.

I don't like it here. It is a bit, I like to get out and mix with a lot

:32:52.:32:55.

of people, you have to do what you are told. That is all right when you

:32:56.:33:00.

are a young boy, but when you are getting on a bit, you don't want to

:33:01.:33:05.

be told what to do, you know what I mean. This is where it happens. Are

:33:06.:33:10.

you paying for this yourself or the council paying? I'm not paying. They

:33:11.:33:30.

pay my rent. I'm lucky to be here. I can't hold anything, I can't lift

:33:31.:33:36.

anything, there's nothing, not a lot I can do. And this is why I need the

:33:37.:33:43.

care. Otherwise I wouldn't, I would be at home. I looked after my

:33:44.:33:49.

mother, I wouldn't have her put away and I wouldn't have dreamt of having

:33:50.:33:54.

her put in a home. So I looked after her and that was it. It was natural.

:33:55.:34:01.

I wouldn't put my mother in a home when I could look after her. But

:34:02.:34:11.

under the circumstances there is only me and if it wasn't for here

:34:12.:34:27.

where would I be? # We travel along

:34:28.:34:34.

# Singing a song # Side-by-side

:34:35.:34:40.

The dignified voices of some of our senior citizens, Paul Burstow joins

:34:41.:34:44.

me now. You say in the report we can no longer accept for others a

:34:45.:34:47.

standard of care that we wouldn't accept for ourselves. What is wrong

:34:48.:34:51.

with it? What is wrong with it is in the public mind people associate

:34:52.:34:54.

residential care with a sense of loss, a loss of home, a loss of

:34:55.:34:57.

independence, and often they associate it with a fear of neglect

:34:58.:35:02.

and abuse. Yet the 12 months I have spent on this commission looking at

:35:03.:35:06.

what great care looks like it is about giving people that ability to

:35:07.:35:10.

reconnect, to have good relationships, to be able to have a

:35:11.:35:14.

life they want to lead in that way. And to have some independence as

:35:15.:35:18.

well? That's right. It is about maintaining the normal rhythms of

:35:19.:35:23.

normal lie. Not being regimented but doing what you want to do. So there

:35:24.:35:27.

is some good care in the country? There is a lot of good care in this

:35:28.:35:31.

country and excellent care around the world, we have looked at both.

:35:32.:35:35.

There needs to be a spectrum, a continuum of care, housing of care,

:35:36.:35:42.

rather than this rigid definition of residential care which stifles

:35:43.:35:45.

things. And gives it a bad reputation in some people's eyes?

:35:46.:35:49.

Yes. It is a detailed and comprehensive report, I'm sure all

:35:50.:35:52.

the political parties will be looking at it. What would be the

:35:53.:35:55.

single biggest change in your view we could make that would improve the

:35:56.:36:03.

quality of housing with care? One is to change the planning system to

:36:04.:36:06.

make it easier for the right sort of housing to be provided, so people

:36:07.:36:10.

can make a choice but be how they want to lead their later lives, and

:36:11.:36:15.

make a choice about a new home to be living in. And make a difference to

:36:16.:36:18.

staffing arrangements so there is a license to practice as staff, and

:36:19.:36:22.

better training standards and paying them better. Better pay and more

:36:23.:36:27.

professional status, that would make a big difference? It would. As a

:36:28.:36:31.

society we are getting much older and old people do one thing, they

:36:32.:36:35.

vote, and they are a bigger part of the demographic than ever before.

:36:36.:36:37.

The political parties in some way will have to take some notice of

:36:38.:36:41.

this? They will, and this Government through its care legislation and the

:36:42.:36:44.

cap on care costs is trying to do its bit in that regard. But also

:36:45.:36:50.

this report is addressing the needs of working-aged disabled people,

:36:51.:36:53.

making sure they have these sorts of choices as well. In the end this is

:36:54.:36:57.

about people being able to maintain their independence wherever they

:36:58.:37:01.

live. The coalition has just passed the big Care Bill and act, from your

:37:02.:37:05.

report it is not nearly enough? What I really came out of Government

:37:06.:37:08.

thinking was that we still needed to do more and we hadn't done enough to

:37:09.:37:11.

look at the future of residential care. This report really is a

:37:12.:37:15.

clarion call to all political parties and to those who provide

:37:16.:37:19.

care. We can do better, good is already there, we can have excellent

:37:20.:37:23.

if we actually strive to do the sort of things this report is

:37:24.:37:30.

recommending. Now the newest plant species to be discovered by butt

:37:31.:37:35.

budding botonists will never sound the same again, the international

:37:36.:37:39.

cot knee Congress, I'm sure you think of nothing else, in the

:37:40.:37:45.

language of Aeneid and Homer and the stallwart of the tongue of owes

:37:46.:37:49.

would no longer be the lingua franca for cataloguing new discoveries. Is

:37:50.:37:54.

this a sign that learning Latin is not the bedrock of learning English

:37:55.:38:09.

we thought. Snowdrops, galanthus, N avadus.

:38:10.:38:23.

Kew Gardens, the Wembley of flowers. It seems we need to wake up and

:38:24.:38:30.

smell the roses, because behind our backs botonists have changed wait

:38:31.:38:36.

they describe plants. So was the bard right, "a rose by any other

:38:37.:38:45.

name would smell as sweet". In the will be arium at Kew, Professor

:38:46.:38:50.

David Simpson and his colleagues hold seven million plant specimens.

:38:51.:38:55.

Their job is as far from over. Some 2,000 new samples are identified

:38:56.:39:01.

every year. This This is a collection made by Charles Darwin.

:39:02.:39:05.

The great man himself? Yes. This was collected in 1832 from Patagonia,

:39:06.:39:11.

and this was collected on his trip around South America, as part of his

:39:12.:39:15.

voyage. He or his cohorts would have written up where they found it,

:39:16.:39:20.

those key details in Latin. It is certainly Latin was a way that you

:39:21.:39:25.

could get people in different parts of the world to understand what the

:39:26.:39:31.

botonist was talking about. This would have what we call a Latin

:39:32.:39:37.

diagnosis, this is just a short piece of Latin, written in Latin

:39:38.:39:41.

that gives the key features of the plants. So the main feature that is

:39:42.:39:45.

would help to identify the plant. So it could be the length, the leaves,

:39:46.:39:50.

the colour of the flowers. What we do now is we don't have the Latin

:39:51.:39:55.

description, we have started putting in this journal we put this little

:39:56.:39:58.

piece called the recognition statement. I think now we need to be

:39:59.:40:04.

talking to a much wider audience and plants of course are an important

:40:05.:40:14.

part of conservation in general. We have to get the information we have

:40:15.:40:17.

in the specimens and plant descriptions over to that larger

:40:18.:40:21.

scientific community, over the public at large.

:40:22.:40:28.

Are the men of the her arium being Hearn roar about this, what about --

:40:29.:40:35.

herbivorian about it, what about the men who went out and covered the

:40:36.:40:41.

globe and filled the houses here with specimens, would they have been

:40:42.:40:45.

happy about junking the Latin. It is often attacked for being a dead

:40:46.:40:49.

language but actually that is great, great advantage, because it is a

:40:50.:40:52.

dead language its rules are set in stone, there is no wriggle room,

:40:53.:40:56.

there is no room for development or lack of clarity. We spoke to this

:40:57.:41:06.

channel's face of gardening, Monty Don. Surely BBC Two is the elitist

:41:07.:41:14.

challenge, shouldn't we defend Latin and keep the hoi poloi at bay? No

:41:15.:41:27.

because one of the greatest things about the hoi poloi garden! Long may

:41:28.:41:35.

that last. If people feel intimidated by that, and that's bad,

:41:36.:41:39.

and they should be allowed to use English. For classification,

:41:40.:41:44.

botanical terms you need a common language to all countries and

:41:45.:41:47.

languages. I think Latin has done pretty well. Final word, in English,

:41:48.:41:53.

to our professor at Kew. What do you think Darwin would have made of

:41:54.:41:56.

this? Revolution, sacrilidge perhaps? I think Darwin would

:41:57.:42:01.

understand that things move on, evolution, this is evolution. I

:42:02.:42:04.

think he was connected with that? Yeah, yeah. And I think that would,

:42:05.:42:13.

I think he would have approved. I'm surprised not many of you spotted

:42:14.:42:17.

tonight's mistake, Homer did not write in Latin or speak Latin,

:42:18.:42:25.

indeed when he was riding the Iliad he did not exist, it was in ancient

:42:26.:42:28.

Greek. We're joined by our guests now. Let

:42:29.:42:36.

me come to you Dr Thomson first, you don't want Latin to have any place

:42:37.:42:42.

in science, why? Well I think they got it right when they said that

:42:43.:42:45.

Darwin would have approved really, because Darwin was interested in

:42:46.:42:49.

scientists being able to talk to each other. And of course in those

:42:50.:42:54.

days, when he was around, English hadn't quite taken over the world

:42:55.:42:59.

like it has since then, and Latin really was the lingua franca of

:43:00.:43:03.

scientist, so scientist could talk to each other in Latin. Nowadays, of

:43:04.:43:07.

course, no-one can talk to anyone in Latin. And the language of science,

:43:08.:43:12.

the language that I use is English. So in the interests of good

:43:13.:43:17.

communication between scientists we should be using English, which we

:43:18.:43:26.

now can do. Why use a dead language for live, 21st century science Dr

:43:27.:43:29.

Pawlicki? It is a very good question, and I think the answer to

:43:30.:43:33.

that has to be well there is no reason to hold on to it just for the

:43:34.:43:40.

sake of it. I think most classists would agree that we need to be

:43:41.:43:45.

pragmatic and if Latin is not serving the purpose that botonists

:43:46.:43:49.

and other scientists need it to do then there is no point keeping on

:43:50.:43:52.

using it just because it has always been done that way. Do you think

:43:53.:43:56.

that is the case? If I understand correctly how the new botanical

:43:57.:44:04.

systems are playing out. Certainly for the lengthier descriptions of

:44:05.:44:09.

the plants and so on, yes it seems to me sensible that Latin is no

:44:10.:44:13.

longer going to be the most accessible inclusive way of

:44:14.:44:16.

communicating that information. The naming I think is probably a

:44:17.:44:21.

different matter. When we're talking about the specific terms and words

:44:22.:44:25.

that are used to name these species, then I think holding on to the Latin

:44:26.:44:32.

words and the Latin words that we have is there. Many English words

:44:33.:44:38.

have more than one meaning, isn't Latin more specific? Isn't that the

:44:39.:44:42.

reason why it has lasted for so long, even in the scientific

:44:43.:44:47.

community? Well, yes. You could say that. But in fact in reality of

:44:48.:44:54.

course, two things, no-one is suggesting that Latinised names for

:44:55.:44:57.

plants and animals should be replaced. Although of course they

:44:58.:45:02.

are not actually Latin. They can be almost any language you care to

:45:03.:45:07.

think of. They just give endings to make them look like fake Latin. It

:45:08.:45:11.

is not as though we are actually using Latin for naming plants and

:45:12.:45:16.

animals any way. You mean we are making it up? Giving everything an

:45:17.:45:25.

"ium". Is that you nodding? We coin the new, the botonists and

:45:26.:45:30.

scientists coin new words that fit the forms of Latin that they can

:45:31.:45:34.

come from English words and actually my understanding is very often they

:45:35.:45:39.

are Greek in origin but given a Latin form, so it is not as simple

:45:40.:45:45.

as it seems. Didn't Latin become the language of many things that were

:45:46.:45:49.

named in science from plants to minerals and so on, because in the

:45:50.:45:55.

18th or 19th centuries, most educated scientists had a Latin

:45:56.:46:02.

background. Now, even the most educated scientists probably don't?

:46:03.:46:05.

Yes, I think what we are dealing with here is very much an indication

:46:06.:46:11.

of lad tin's history in the modern world, which if we go back to the

:46:12.:46:15.

Rennaissance certainly and certainly through to the 18th century and a

:46:16.:46:19.

little bit beyond that, Latin was the language of scholarship, and you

:46:20.:46:23.

could guarantee that it was a lingua franca be and it is not now, not in

:46:24.:46:28.

the same way. A little bit sad Dr Thomson so see it go? Not at all,

:46:29.:46:33.

I'm not sad. I think one thing we all ought to remember is that Botany

:46:34.:46:40.

isn't exactly cool, is it. We think it is on Newsnight? Maybe you do,

:46:41.:46:45.

but a lot of people don't. And I think an association with a long

:46:46.:46:48.

dead language doesn't really help its image. So I think this is a

:46:49.:46:55.

great step forward. We better leave it there doctors both of you, that's

:46:56.:46:59.

it for tonight, Laura Kuensberg will be here tomorrow night, for now

:47:00.:47:05.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, presented by Andrew Neil.

America reacts to another ISIS murder. Scotland polls narrow. Old age care. Is Latin pointless?


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