01/09/2014 Newsnight


01/09/2014

Parents v hospitals. Are new terror laws legal? Is the UK behind Hong Kong protests? Three parent babies. Naked actress stolen pictures. Football transfer day economics.


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A sick child 300 miles away from his parents, who are tonight behind

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bars. How do the legal and medical procedures across Europe get to

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this, and how much choice do parents have over their child's own

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treatment. Also tonight: It sticks in the craw

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the idea that someone can go from this country, go to Syria, declare

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Jihad, make all sorts of plans do us damage and then contemplate

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returning to Britain. Police get more powers to fight terror, are the

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new rules legal and will they work? This man was once under a control

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order, he thinks the Government have it all wrong.

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And this: Technically I have DNA from three

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different people. Is there any good reason why science should be able to

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create children with three different biological parents. Today science

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tries to work out the answer. Good evening. Southampton General

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Hospital called it a "breakdown in communication", that breakdown has

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resulted tonight in the parents of Ashya King spending the night in the

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Soto Real prison in Madrid, whilst their desperately ill son lies in a

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Malaga hospital 300 miles away. The family who brought him to Spain

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without the consent of the authorities have refused to be

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extradited to Britain. As a result they are now banned from seeing

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their five-year-old. The situation is desperate. A Kafka plot with a

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horribly real outcome. How does the law work to protect a child from its

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parents when the parents believe they are only doing what is best.

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It is the best treatment for Ashya. Parents in prison, away from their

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ill little boy. He's in a hospital room with guards, miles away. The

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Kings took a decision to trust their instinct not doctors. But predicted

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nothing of what the consequences would be. Obviously we never thought

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this would be such a big deal. We just wanted to do what was best for

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Ashya. Obviously I'm just grateful for everyone back home. Obviously

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petitions being signed and money being raised for his treatment,

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obviously I'm really thankful. The King's Speeches refused the

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authority's legal request to bring him home, so a Spanish judge ordered

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them to stay in custody while the legal machine grinds on. I ask call

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it off this ridiculous chase. It is not a crime for parents to remove

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their child from hospital, that is unless a court has already put a

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legal order in place. But cruelty to children can be a crime, and the CPS

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believed there was enough evidence to get a warrant for The King's

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Speeches' arrest. No other proton therapy centre around the world has

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more advanced technology. Patients from all around the world are

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accepted by our team of competent and friendly international

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specialists. The King's Speeches plan was to sell their holiday house

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in Spain pay for this, proton beam therapy in the Czech Republic, where

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small parts of atoms are beamed at cancer tissue, it can be more

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precise and less damaging than traditional radiotherapy, but

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Ashya's doctors in the UK did not believe it was best for him. The

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surrounding healthy tissue is protected and not damaged by

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unwanted radiation. I have spoken to the hospital in

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Prague where the little boy's family hoped he might be treated. They made

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inquiries on August 20th. Tonight they said they are willing to offer

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the little boy treatment in a few days' time if his medical situation

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is appropriate. In fact they said they approached the NHS back in 2012

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offering to make their services available to hospitals that don't

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have the equipment. The technology was actually

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developed in the UK, but there is only one hospital where it is in

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use. Two will follow soon. NHS England say they do pay for

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treatment overseas if and win it is appropriate. But when the doctors

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say no, a number of families do decide to fund it themselves.

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Everybody wants to hang on to that one thing that maybe the difference

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between their child living or dying. I think you know sometimes yes, it

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can be a false economy, but I think when you weigh the two things up,

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you know, weighing one against the other then if my child only had a 1%

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chance to beat the cancer I would want to exhaust the 1%. While that

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emotion is straight forward, decision making about treatment is

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not. Effective treatment really depends on integration. Now the new

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organisation has made this more difficult. So many of the national

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integration processes have been reduced and it seems perhaps as if

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there has been slightly less focus on cancer. The Government's

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reorganisation has made it more difficult? I think reorganisation of

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the NHS has made it more difficult for cross-organisational specialist

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work of this sort. Last year 99 children were sent abroad for just

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had kind of treatment, with the NHS covering costs and travel and

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accommodation for family too. The attraction and the novelty of a

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high-tech new treatment doesn't mean it is always the best choice for any

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patients. For some children the question isn't necessarily what kind

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of radiotherapy they should have, it is how they would cope with any

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treatment at all? But there are some cases where

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doctors and parents just can't agree. This time with an

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extraordinary outcome, parents in custody, doctors in Southampton

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unable to help. Children who have life-threatening conditions, it is

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really important that the family and the medical and nursing teams have a

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good communication and good relationships. In Ashya's case we

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really regret that the communication and the relationship broke down to

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the extent that the family lost trust in the team that were caring

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for him. And the little boy, table but seriously ill without family by

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his bedside. Now under the court's protection, the decision about his

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parents' future could take months. This evening, as you heard, the

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Southampton Hospital Trust admitted that communication and relationship

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with The King's Speech family had broken down. They said they

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regretted it. How can the heavy hands of medical professionals and

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lawyers come between a child and his parents when the same outcome is

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presumably desired by them all. I'm joined by Professor Harrison and

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Professor Jonathan Montgomery. Thank you very much for your time this

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evening. Professor Montgomery, should the hospital go against the

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wishes of the parents? There are two different sets offish use, the issue

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first of all about what happens if a child is taken away who is severely

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ill, I think the health professionals have to act then and

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try to safeguard the child. Clearly that was what they were faced with

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on Friday afternoon. If they have more time and the ability to discuss

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it through then the issue are slightly different. There it was

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unusual to go against the wishes of the parents as opposed to discuss it

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with them. Don't you think that is odd, they already met the parents,

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they knew the boy, they had seen the parents at the child's bedside. Why

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would you be suspicious of parents in that situation? I'm not sure they

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were suspicious of them at all until the boy was taken away from

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hospital. Then they have to decide how dangerous it is for the boy to

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be removed from hospital. It sounds as though from their view they

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thought initially it was very dangerous, although we now know of

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course the parents had taken significant precautions to make sure

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he was safe. Does that ring true then, if they thought he was in

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grave danger they had no choice? I don't think that rings true to me.

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None of us know the basis on which the CPS took the decision to issue a

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parent to hound this poor family. But the reason given by the CPS at

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the request of the Hampshire Police was, and I quote "for an offence of

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cruelty to a person under the age of 16". Well so far it is fairly

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obvious that the only cruelty to this poor little boy has been his

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abandonment in a Spanish hospital, where he doesn't speak the language,

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without his parents, his mother I understand had been with him

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constantly for the month before this, and without his family

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present. This is a prima facia cruelty. Whether there was any

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danger of any other sort of cruelty we don't know. We would have to, it

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seems to me, with all due respect to Jonathan to be fairly powerful and

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pressing reasons to believe that they were going to act recklessly or

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negligently with respect to their son whom they obviously loved, to

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warrant these draconian and heavy-handed measures. Why do you

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think they did it, do you think there was professional pride at

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play, or do you think this was a misjudgment? I have no idea. I'm not

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going to try to guess the motives of people I don't know. But it is not a

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crime to withdraw yourself or your children from hospital. And there is

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no reason, unless they can show why there was a reason, to suppose they

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were withdrawing him for some neferious reason. I think it was

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about what was right for the boy. That is not a criminal marks the

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oddity is it became a criminal matter. It became unnecessarily,

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with respect, it became unnecessarily a criminal matter, and

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this has been presented as if there was medical opinion on one side and

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the family opinion on the other. As we all know medical opinion is not a

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unitary thing, there are many difficult president Di Canio

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opinions in case like this. It is not clear without further evidence

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that the opinion of this particular team in this particular hospital was

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right sort of opinion to take. I agree with that John. Do you know

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some of those involved? I know some of the people there. I know this is

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a hospital that has a clinical Ethics Committee which is way of

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providing a process to discuss these things. What I don't know is whether

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that was used in this case. This case emerges, last Friday, as a

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sudden urgent problem of the boy being removed. I think if we were

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talking about a more timely process and the Medical Director has

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recognised that everybody would have desired a proper, timely discussion.

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I think it would be very much like John is decribing. We don't know

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where the reports came from, but the press reports were very much leaning

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towards the parents' religion, they were Jehova's witnesses and the talk

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of the battery running down, does that seem completely misplaced

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knowing what we know now? As far as we can tell what we can pick up that

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wasn't a dimension. What feels to be a dimension is two issues, one is a

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question about how much faith one could put in this new treatment

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which the doctors seemed to say is not appropriate for the particular

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condition the boy is in, and the parents quite reasonably saying we

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have reason to think that is something that would be success.

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Ful. You would expect that to be worked through in a collaborative

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process and you would expect the hospital to make available a second

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reason. Absolutely, I agree with Jonathan, that is the nub of the

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issue. But in circumstances like that would you not expect the

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doctors to insist that they were the only people, this particular set of

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doctors who who like all of us, do not have a monopoly of which is Don

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Dom on these matters to insist that there must be bad faith and motives

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of cruelty. So parents thinking they want to go down a different route of

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treatment? That is very important, in the mind of the health

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professionals you have to think what they thought might have been

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happening. It sounds as if they thought what might be happening is a

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boy relying on battery-powered feeding system would be without that

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support. We know that is not the case. The analogy in their minds and

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probably the minds of the Crown Prosecution Service when it became a

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criminal matter was with parents, different groups of parents who in

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the past have felt that because of their beliefs about appropriate

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treatment they wouldn't, for example, provide insulin for

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diabetics which becomes an urgent issue. That is where we have in the

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past seen criminal intervention. Maybe this is outside the medical

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sphere now, in terms of the ethics involved in a court in Spain keeping

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them there and the extradition that would take them away from their son.

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Can anyone step in now in terms of what the hospital could say to get

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the parents and the child united? I think if this were happening in the

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UK we would expect that to happen very quickly. We would expect the

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court to take grip on it and make sure it kept the boy safe, it would

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also expect them to make sure the parents were with the child. Can the

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British Government now step in and tell a Spanish court or hospital

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what to do? They could advise, they can't tell them what to do. Spain is

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a sovereign state. But they could certainly give very strong

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indication of what they thought an appropriate outcome would now be.

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But I'm not just blaming the doctors here, I'm perhaps not blaming them

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at all. The CPS have a lot to answer for. It may be that they acted on a

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particular interpretation of events from one side. And it is always

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dangerous when you only have, when you are only listening to one side

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of what is clearly an on going and not all together happy relationship

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between two sides in the care of this young man.

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Thank you very much both of you indeed.

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The threat from British Jihadis is real, the Prime Minister told

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parliament this afternoon, and in so doing he announced police would have

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temporary powers to exclude British nationals from returning to the UK.

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Sounds bold, but what that means is currently and crucially pretty

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unclear. The Government has not specified whether they would remove

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passports or citizenship from suspected terrorists, but both

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measures were tonight labelled probably impossible by the former

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Attorney-General. We look at the entire package announced today and

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what it really means. Ed Miliband today called it a summer

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of international instability, August was the serious, not silly season,

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such a steady stream of bad events, MPs told me they were convinced

:14:43.:14:45.

parliament would be recalled. But it wasn't, leaving it all for

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parliament today. The Prime Minister came to the House with a long list

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of crises to address. But it was the counter terrorism announcements

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people were waiting for. In the early days of the coalition Liberal

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Democrats and Conservatives forged common cause in protecting civil

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liberties, since then they have drifted apart, and over the weekend

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Liberal Democrats voiced concerns that David Cameron today might go

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too far. Even one Conservative cabinet minister was concerned the

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Prime Minister might be too draconian. To confront the threat of

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Islamic extremism we need a tough, intelligent, patient and

:15:23.:15:25.

comprehensive approach to defeat the terrorist threat at its source. He

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started with the areas of agreement, legislation to give the border

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police temporary powers to take passports away from UK citizens

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planning to leave to fight Jihad. Airlines will also be required, by

:15:37.:15:39.

law, to co-operate with the intelligence agencies on who is

:15:40.:15:42.

flying where. But everything else was harder. On plans to exclude

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suspected British terrorists from returning to the UK, David Cameron

:15:49.:15:52.

was only able to say he would work up proposals and put them to

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cross-party talks. Indeed, in another area, there was something of

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a U-turn. The coalition shelved the Labour Party's control orders when

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they came to power, today, to racaus laughter by the opposition, the

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coalition had to agree they would be looking at bringing back control

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orders in all but name. We will produce new powers to add to our

:16:13.:16:16.

existing terrorism prevention and investigation measures, including

:16:17.:16:22.

stronger locational constraints on suspects under Tpims, either through

:16:23.:16:26.

enhanced use of exclusion zones or relocation powers. David Cameron's

:16:27.:16:29.

position on civil liberties has changed some what over the years,

:16:30.:16:32.

when he became leader it was against Tony Blair and his tough law and

:16:33.:16:36.

order Government. David Cameron sensed an opening and it was the

:16:37.:16:40.

Tories that pledged to protect civil liberties in this country. Even

:16:41.:16:44.

though, as a young man, he worked for Michael Howard's Home Office,

:16:45.:16:48.

hardly noted for its lenient law and order agenda, when David Cameron

:16:49.:16:51.

became leader of the Conservatives it was he that pledged civil

:16:52.:16:59.

liberties. Part of an agenda to woo over metropolitan Britain. That

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agenda has now been seriously downplayed. This is the then leader

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of the opposition: Now today I want to focus my remarks

:17:10.:17:33.

on terrorism. This speech at Munich in 2011 was a turning point, less

:17:34.:17:37.

than one year of being in office had hardened David Cameron, here he say

:17:38.:17:44.

the multiculturalism had failed and terrorism was a bigger threat than

:17:45.:17:48.

thought. Here the parties started to go different ways on civil

:17:49.:17:53.

liberties. When a white person holds racist views we rightly condemn

:17:54.:17:57.

then, but when equally unacceptable practices come from someone who

:17:58.:18:01.

isn't white we have been too cautious, frankly, even fearful to

:18:02.:18:05.

stand up to them. Tonight it is unclear what elements of the Prime

:18:06.:18:09.

Minister's package, apart from passport seizures and airline

:18:10.:18:12.

operation will see the light of day. David Cameron was beaten back by Lib

:18:13.:18:16.

Dem opposition and legal concerns. Not great first day back at

:18:17.:18:20.

parliament. Joining me now the one-time control

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order detainee, Cerie Bullivant, and the former independent reviewer of

:18:26.:18:29.

terror legislation Lord Carlile, we will come to Lord Carl in a second.

:18:30.:18:35.

First, Cerie, how did the control order affect you, you had it for a

:18:36.:18:39.

year-and-a-half? In my case as in many others the control order

:18:40.:18:43.

debilitates your life, that is the purpose of it. It left me with

:18:44.:18:46.

severe depression and it pushed me into a corner where I felt my only

:18:47.:18:50.

option was to abscond and go on the run for five weeks. How easy was it

:18:51.:18:55.

to evade it? This is the problem, with all of these measures, if you

:18:56.:18:59.

have dangerous people you don't want them being held in the community.

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They need to be put in prison. The only way to do that is through

:19:05.:19:08.

criminal charges. Evading these things was relatively easy, and none

:19:09.:19:13.

of the people that have absconded from control orders or Tpims have

:19:14.:19:17.

been caught. So the relocation measure being put in would stop

:19:18.:19:21.

people like you reentering their own community. That is exactly what it

:19:22.:19:25.

is designed to do? I could have absconded whether on a relocation

:19:26.:19:27.

order or not. That would have had very little effect on whether I did

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abscond. The fact of the matter is the relocation, even according to

:19:34.:19:38.

Lord McDonald was disproportionate and unjustified. He said in his

:19:39.:19:43.

report on control orders that it was against British values and norms.

:19:44.:19:47.

While the Conservative Government are telling Muslims they need to

:19:48.:19:51.

embrace British value, they themselves are bane donning them

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with this internal exile. Could you have left the country, they took

:19:56.:19:59.

your passport didn't they? I didn't leave the country but the two people

:20:00.:20:03.

I absconded with left the country. With fake passports? I wasn't with

:20:04.:20:06.

them when they did, that I handed myself in. You absconded and handed

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yourself back in, so you are proving that they do work? No, the only

:20:11.:20:14.

person who has only faced justice for this was myself. I handed myself

:20:15.:20:18.

in. I chose to come back in everybody else has not been caught

:20:19.:20:23.

and has not been brought to justice on this. The fact of the matter is

:20:24.:20:27.

you have a measure that doesn't protect the British public that

:20:28.:20:30.

captures innocent people like myself. I had my life ruined for two

:20:31.:20:34.

years and continues until today on the basis of secret courts and

:20:35.:20:38.

secret evidence. How is this a British value? The idea is to stop

:20:39.:20:42.

Jihadies from coming back into Britain, can you see how these new

:20:43.:20:48.

measures today will be a deterrent? They are not new measures brought in

:20:49.:20:54.

today. Since April 2014, May has been using the Royal Peroogative to

:20:55.:20:58.

take-away people's passports. What we see today is grandstanding, the

:20:59.:21:03.

rehashing of old policies put out as new so the Government can be seen to

:21:04.:21:07.

be tough on terrorism. In actual fact all it will do is create more

:21:08.:21:14.

of a ghettoisation, and disenfranchisement in the Muslim

:21:15.:21:17.

community. These are not used for Ukrainian separatist. Lord Carlile,

:21:18.:21:21.

I know you don't want to interact particularly, you have heard the

:21:22.:21:24.

arguments and they are pretty powerful, when you hear someone who

:21:25.:21:28.

has had a control order saying more disenfranchised, and the whole idea

:21:29.:21:33.

against British values? I think the arguments we have just heard are

:21:34.:21:38.

misleading. Relocation orders worked very well, for the last five years

:21:39.:21:43.

of control orders relocation orders were entirely effective, they were

:21:44.:21:46.

properly policed, they became before the courts, the courts heard all the

:21:47.:21:53.

evidence. Some people had their relocation orders varied by a judge,

:21:54.:21:56.

it was found to be fair, it was found to be proportionate. There was

:21:57.:21:59.

never a finding that control orders were couldn'try to the Human Rights

:22:00.:22:04.

Act and to represent so is wrong. You make it sound like there is a

:22:05.:22:07.

legal structure around this, there isn't a trial, there isn't a charge?

:22:08.:22:12.

There is a legal structure, there is a complex legal structure around

:22:13.:22:17.

Tpims and relocation orders under the old control orders' regime.

:22:18.:22:23.

Every one of these cases went automatically before a senior High

:22:24.:22:25.

Court judge, not only was the individual represented by his own

:22:26.:22:30.

lawyers but special advocates were put in to represent the position of

:22:31.:22:35.

the individual when secret intelligence was being heard in

:22:36.:22:39.

court. It could not have been a fairer procedure. And yet you have

:22:40.:22:45.

heard the testimony there of somebody who says they absconded.

:22:46.:22:50.

Not from relocation, no. Well he said it didn't matter where he would

:22:51.:22:55.

have been, he could have absconded? That is not true, I'm telling you

:22:56.:22:59.

the facts, there were not absconds from relocation. As an independent

:23:00.:23:03.

reviewer as I was at that time, I went to visit people who were

:23:04.:23:07.

relocated, the system worked well and it was found to be fair and

:23:08.:23:10.

proportionate. What about the two he was with who left the country? They

:23:11.:23:14.

have nothing to do with relocation. They were the people subject to

:23:15.:23:17.

control orders without relocation. We are trying to test whether this

:23:18.:23:21.

is an effective system. If you have someone, who, OK, without

:23:22.:23:25.

relocation, if you insist, still absconded, two others who left the

:23:26.:23:29.

country and an overall impression that they have been maltreated by a

:23:30.:23:34.

British system? I don't think the British public believes they were

:23:35.:23:38.

maltreated at all. I repeat this system, which involved relocation

:23:39.:23:42.

was upheld by the courts repeatedly. I want to talk about this idea of

:23:43.:23:47.

taking somebody's passport on their way in, how workable is that? You

:23:48.:23:52.

heard what was said this afternoon, probably impossible for Government

:23:53.:23:57.

to prevent Britons returning? I agree entirely with the Attorney

:23:58.:24:02.

General and Sir Ming Campbell who said the same yesterday. If somebody

:24:03.:24:07.

is a British citizen with no other nationality, then it is unlawful

:24:08.:24:11.

under international law to remove their passport from them until they

:24:12.:24:15.

are within the country. Once they reenter the country it may be

:24:16.:24:21.

lawful. How do you stop Jihadis recentering Britain? If they are --

:24:22.:24:30.

Re-- reentering Britain? You can't, you re-arrest them if they have

:24:31.:24:34.

committed criminal offence, if we have relocation, Tpims beefed up,

:24:35.:24:38.

then that is an option that can be useded against them. Before they

:24:39.:24:42.

have left? Before they have left or when they return. What we can't do

:24:43.:24:46.

under international law and it would be asking for trouble if we tried to

:24:47.:24:50.

do it is prevent British citizens who have no other nationality from

:24:51.:24:54.

reentering their own country. Doesn't it strike you then that

:24:55.:24:57.

there is a gap in the rhetoric tonight between what David Cameron

:24:58.:25:01.

has said he's doing and what he is legally able to produce? What he

:25:02.:25:06.

said was entirely truthful, he said and I summarise that they were going

:25:07.:25:09.

to try to find an all-party approach to this question of Jihadis

:25:10.:25:13.

reentering the country. I think it is certain that the all-party

:25:14.:25:20.

approach they will find will correspond with what the Attorney

:25:21.:25:24.

General said, I think the Government should tell us the gist of the

:25:25.:25:27.

advice they were given by the current law officers, I wouldn't

:25:28.:25:30.

mind betting that the advice they gave was entirely consistent with

:25:31.:25:36.

the Attorney General's view. Thank you.

:25:37.:25:40.

Pro-democracy campaigners in Hong Kong have vowed to fight a Chinese

:25:41.:25:44.

Government ruling that effectively gives China control over the

:25:45.:25:47.

candidates for the territory's next leader. Protesters clashed with

:25:48.:25:51.

security as the decision was announced last night. It means a

:25:52.:25:55.

special monitoring body will have to vet everyone standing in the

:25:56.:25:59.

elections of 2017. The first of question, the Hong Kong chief

:26:00.:26:02.

executive will be directly chosen by voters. Well the move by Beijing

:26:03.:26:08.

appears to contravene the joint declaration signed between China and

:26:09.:26:12.

Britain protecting democratic rights of Hong Kong citizens. In an

:26:13.:26:15.

extraordinary letter, seen tonight by Newsnight, we learn that the head

:26:16.:26:19.

of the foreign fares committee, Sir Richard Ottoway, has been advised by

:26:20.:26:23.

his Chinese counterpart not to hold an inquiry into UK-Hong Kong

:26:24.:26:27.

relations and has been warned of the consequences if he does.

:26:28.:26:31.

We have the story. The language is pretty blunt in that letter? It is

:26:32.:26:36.

very, very strong stuff, and British parliamentarians decided earlier

:26:37.:26:39.

this year, perfectly properly because of the historic relationship

:26:40.:26:43.

and Britain's historic responsibility to Hong Kong to take

:26:44.:26:46.

a look at what was going on and progress towards democracy. This

:26:47.:26:50.

letter could not be clearer about basically saying back off. The

:26:51.:26:53.

Chinese do not see it as any of the UK's business. Just to give you a

:26:54.:26:59.

flavour of that letter it suggests that the MP's intention has sent a

:27:00.:27:03.

wrong political signal to the outside world, disrupting Hong

:27:04.:27:06.

Kong's political reform. It says that Britain, these MPs should stop

:27:07.:27:11.

interfering in Hong Kong's affairs, they should cancel the inquiry. Very

:27:12.:27:15.

direct message there. Indeed they say China will brook no interference

:27:16.:27:21.

either directly or indirectly from the UK. Extremely strong language

:27:22.:27:26.

from the Chinese. The message could not be more straight forward, within

:27:27.:27:30.

a sense you have British parliamentarians trying to do

:27:31.:27:33.

exactly what they are meant to do and what they are entitled to.

:27:34.:27:40.

Extremely strong enough. Stuff, we believe the Chinese Ambassador sent

:27:41.:27:43.

this message too, very, very directly you will have seen in the

:27:44.:27:46.

last couple of days due to the decision made by the Chinese

:27:47.:27:51.

authorities, their move to limit the promise of democracy in Hong Kong,

:27:52.:27:54.

this is a very tense time. Britain is not just interested because of

:27:55.:27:57.

our historic role there, but also because of the interests of British

:27:58.:28:01.

business based in Hong Kong. There is huge financial institutions who

:28:02.:28:05.

have massive big operations in Hong Kong. What happens there doesn't

:28:06.:28:09.

just matter because of our nostalgia towards the past, but it also

:28:10.:28:15.

matters in economic terms, so our relationship is really important.

:28:16.:28:20.

We go straight to the horse's mouth to Sir Richard Ottoway, you have the

:28:21.:28:24.

letter, I'm wondering what your response was or would be? Laura has

:28:25.:28:32.

put her finger on it, it is an intensive time in Hong Kong as soon

:28:33.:28:35.

assiveties are running high. There is a misunderstanding about the role

:28:36.:28:40.

of the committee in the UK. Back in 1984 Margaret Thatcher and the

:28:41.:28:46.

President of China signed a joint undertaking to give ideas about the

:28:47.:28:50.

future of Hong Kong. My job in the Foreign Affairs Select Committee is

:28:51.:28:53.

to look at whether Britain has complied with its undertakings, and

:28:54.:28:57.

if China hasn't complied with their undertakings, what is the Foreign

:28:58.:29:01.

Office doing about it? That is what we do in parliament. Will you carry

:29:02.:29:06.

on doing that? We decided this afternoon we are going on because

:29:07.:29:10.

our job is to report to parliament what is going on. This is a right

:29:11.:29:15.

and proper procedure. But I don't want particularly to irritate the

:29:16.:29:21.

Chinese, I think I want them to understand the way we work. Just to

:29:22.:29:25.

give you an example. That sounds like you are sort of rather

:29:26.:29:29.

pacifying them by this, do you not feel affronted by the letter? I'm

:29:30.:29:34.

not offended by the letter. He has a job to do and I have a job to do.

:29:35.:29:41.

But just to give you an example, the President of the Supreme Court was

:29:42.:29:44.

recently in Hong Kong and invited to have a look at whether or not there

:29:45.:29:47.

had been interference with the appointment of the judiciary. That

:29:48.:29:51.

is one of the allegations made to my committee. He concluded there wasn't

:29:52.:29:57.

any interference. The point is that it may well be that my committee

:29:58.:30:01.

will decide that actually the Chinese are behaving perfectly

:30:02.:30:04.

reasonably. What about the new law, the protests come from the decision

:30:05.:30:08.

by China to essentially vet all the candidates. The joint declaration

:30:09.:30:16.

you are talking about has at its heart the Hong Kong legal system and

:30:17.:30:19.

democratic system. Do you think this is a breach? That is to prejudge

:30:20.:30:25.

what the inquiry will conclude. Doesn't it sound like a breach of

:30:26.:30:32.

democratic rights? The joint declaration called for universal

:30:33.:30:38.

suffrage with the chief Executive Committee. If you are nominating a

:30:39.:30:42.

limited number of comments, there seems a prima facia face that the

:30:43.:30:48.

undertakings -- case that the undertakings have been given. I

:30:49.:30:51.

don't want to reach that conclusion yet. The joint declaration is a

:30:52.:30:55.

legal document, it is legally binding and 50 years, if that is

:30:56.:30:59.

breached are there sanctions and are you willing to go there if it means

:31:00.:31:03.

jeopardising commercial interests? We are planning to go there. But as

:31:04.:31:08.

far as sanctions are concerned, frankly, we are in a fairly weak

:31:09.:31:12.

position. Indeed we are in a very weak position right from the

:31:13.:31:15.

beginning when the declaration was signed. But I think we can set out

:31:16.:31:20.

the standards and norms that we in Britain think are important and that

:31:21.:31:24.

will of course influence the way we conduct our relations with China. ,

:31:25.:31:45.

The experimental infertility treatment offered in the US was

:31:46.:31:49.

later banned but scientists in the UK have pioneered a new, similar

:31:50.:31:54.

technique, that uses a donor's mitochondria to eliminate severe

:31:55.:31:58.

genetic diseases. Parliament will vote on whether to legalise it later

:31:59.:32:03.

this year. This is the hill, let's try to

:32:04.:32:09.

really pump it. 13-year-old Alanah lives with her mum dad in Michigan

:32:10.:32:14.

in the United States. She likes riding her bike, hanging out with

:32:15.:32:17.

her friends, shopping, just like most teenagers. But she's special.

:32:18.:32:22.

Technically I have DNA from three different people. My two parents

:32:23.:32:26.

that I live with and my birth parents, but I also contain DNA from

:32:27.:32:32.

a third donor. A lady that gave part of hermit mit to my mom's egg. Are

:32:33.:32:39.

She's one of a handful of children born as a result of an experimental

:32:40.:32:44.

fertility treatment. My family has a history of going into menopause

:32:45.:32:47.

early. So my eggs weren't so healthy. That is when my doctor

:32:48.:32:53.

recommended this cyto last Mikel transfer. It is an all consuming

:32:54.:33:00.

drive to have a child. It is the Washington Post -- Washington Post

:33:01.:33:05.

feeling because you will do whatever it takes. The treatment involved

:33:06.:33:10.

tiny structures inside our cells called mitochondria, like little bat

:33:11.:33:13.

trees they provide the power that keeps our bodies functioning, but

:33:14.:33:17.

they also contain a bit of DNA. Doctors thought that Sharon's

:33:18.:33:22.

mitochondria might be faulty. So they injected one of her eggs with

:33:23.:33:26.

mitochondria from the egg of another woman and it worked. Nine months

:33:27.:33:32.

later Alanah was born, baby with three genetic parents. Fewer than 50

:33:33.:33:38.

children were conceived with this technique, but there were

:33:39.:33:42.

complication. One mother miscarried and two babies developed health

:33:43.:33:46.

problems. No-one knows if the treatment was to blame, but US

:33:47.:33:49.

regulators soon stepped in and banned it. More than a decade later

:33:50.:33:57.

researchers here in the UK have developed a new mitochondria

:33:58.:34:01.

technique that could soon mean more children born with three genetic

:34:02.:34:04.

parents. Now it is up to parliament to decide whether cide whether to

:34:05.:34:09.

allow this. This time it is not to treat infertility, but to prevent

:34:10.:34:17.

diseases. Ment in mitochondriaal diseases are those that protect the

:34:18.:34:21.

power stations within ourselves. These diseases are passed down from

:34:22.:34:28.

mother to child. These diseases tend to involve tissues or organs that

:34:29.:34:35.

are heavily dependant on energy. Those organs are things like the

:34:36.:34:38.

brain and sometimes it involves the heart, sometimes it involves the

:34:39.:34:45.

skeltal muscle. Mitochondria diseases are rare, affecting one in

:34:46.:34:51.

every 3,000 people. But they can be devastating. This is Holly, and she

:34:52.:35:01.

was born and then she survived until she was 26 hours. This is Olivia,

:35:02.:35:06.

she's survived until she was four days. Sharon has lost seven

:35:07.:35:12.

children, all of them died within hours of being born, apart from her

:35:13.:35:19.

son Edward. At first he seemed healthy, but he was soon diagnosed

:35:20.:35:25.

with a mitochondria disease that has affected his central nervous system.

:35:26.:35:29.

You could have a nice few hours, but then he would have about eight hours

:35:30.:35:34.

where he would be in pain, screaming with the pain. His face would like

:35:35.:35:42.

twist up and his hands would get really stiff, which was obviously

:35:43.:35:50.

hard to see. Edward died three years ago aged 21. But scientists say they

:35:51.:35:56.

can now stop the disease causing mitochondria from being passed from

:35:57.:36:02.

mother to child. In the new treatment the nucleus of a woman's

:36:03.:36:07.

fertilised egg that contains the DNA that determines our height, hair

:36:08.:36:10.

colour and personality, all the traits that make us who we are is

:36:11.:36:15.

taken out, leaving the faulty mitochondria behind. It is placed

:36:16.:36:19.

into an egg from another woman, this egg has had its nucleus removed but

:36:20.:36:24.

retains its healthy mitochondria, it is then implanted back into the

:36:25.:36:30.

mother. This technique could completely eliminate mitochondria

:36:31.:36:34.

diseases. But it would also alter our genetic code forever. Here at

:36:35.:36:42.

London's Wellcome Collection, all 3. 3 billion letters of the human

:36:43.:36:47.

genome have been written out. In these 115 book, each 1,000-pages

:36:48.:36:53.

long, is all the DNA we inherit from our mum and dad. The amount of DNA

:36:54.:36:58.

in our mitochondria would take up half a page. These are the genes

:36:59.:37:02.

that would come from a third woman in this new treatment. It is a tiny

:37:03.:37:06.

fraction. Nonetheless, this DNA would not only pass down to a child,

:37:07.:37:11.

it would pass down to their children and their children's children.

:37:12.:37:16.

Critics warn we will be creating entire lippages of genetically

:37:17.:37:19.

modified -- lineages of genetically modified people. There have also

:37:20.:37:24.

been safety concerns. Some animal tests suggested the treatment could

:37:25.:37:29.

lead to health problems. However an extensive scientific review that is

:37:30.:37:34.

concluded that the procedure is not unsafe. And that wording is crucial,

:37:35.:37:38.

because scientists cannot guarantee the safety of this procedure because

:37:39.:37:43.

it hasn't been tested on people. Essentially the British patients who

:37:44.:37:47.

volunteer for this will do so knowing that they are human guinea

:37:48.:37:53.

pigs. The champions of this radical new treatment say it could transform

:37:54.:37:57.

lives and Britain could lead the world. But with no guarantees of

:37:58.:38:02.

safety, and unprecedented changes to our genetic fabric at stake, it is

:38:03.:38:06.

up to parliament to decide if this is a price worth paying. Now the

:38:07.:38:14.

question of whether it is ever-safe to film a sex act on your phone may

:38:15.:38:17.

have to wait for another day. Tonight we deal with the rather more

:38:18.:38:21.

pressing issue of what exactly happened to privately stored data of

:38:22.:38:26.

several Hollywood A-listers, naked pictures of the actres Jennifer

:38:27.:38:37.

Lawrence, Kim Kardashian and others, they were claimed to have been

:38:38.:38:40.

hacked from their private accounts. How much do we know about the cloud

:38:41.:38:46.

and how it works? The cloud descended if you like upon u

:38:47.:38:49.

everyone signed up to it without quite getting what it does? I don't

:38:50.:38:54.

think a lot of people do. What it does is data centres that store your

:38:55.:38:59.

data so you can access it on the move. You have lots of companies

:39:00.:39:06.

doing t Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Dropbox and hosts of other smaller

:39:07.:39:10.

companies. You have no idea how they are looking after your data, what

:39:11.:39:15.

are the curt policies. Where it is. Is it in a server, in a space? In

:39:16.:39:25.

servers farms. There are implication of who has access to your data from

:39:26.:39:30.

a legal point of view. If it is the US the US could have access to it

:39:31.:39:34.

through the NSA, there are all sorts of issues. Who owns it, is it still

:39:35.:39:39.

mine? Yes, it is yours, but you are giving it to your cloud provider in

:39:40.:39:44.

return for a service which is usually free, you are giving it to

:39:45.:39:47.

Google in return for e-mail and map, they use it in return to serve you

:39:48.:39:51.

adverts. It is a transaction except the power of the transaction is

:39:52.:39:54.

mostly with the client provider rather than with you. What is your

:39:55.:39:58.

sense of what might have happened here. You know, we think it was

:39:59.:40:06.

iCloud, Apple said they can't confirm anything? Apple will never

:40:07.:40:12.

confirm anything any way. My sense it is probably compromised passwords

:40:13.:40:17.

rather than an actual hack where somebody would break into database

:40:18.:40:24.

and steal passwords. What is the difference between a hack and

:40:25.:40:29.

password? A hack is where they will try to break into servers, it has

:40:30.:40:34.

happened to big companies. Two types of companies. That wouldn't target

:40:35.:40:39.

celebrities? It would try to get passwords. This I think is more

:40:40.:40:43.

specifically targeted at them. The celebrities have filled in a fake

:40:44.:40:48.

form on-line that has harvested their passwords or perhaps an

:40:49.:40:54.

assistant has had access to their passwords, or they have weak

:40:55.:40:57.

passwords and used them everywhere and somebody has broken it. It is

:40:58.:41:02.

not hard to crack passwords if you try hard enough. Are more people not

:41:03.:41:07.

putting their stuff in cloud or is it not to do with the cloud? It is

:41:08.:41:11.

do with the cloud f you keep your data in the house and it is not

:41:12.:41:17.

on-line nobody has access. We like stuff available on-line. The iCloud

:41:18.:41:20.

is a sinking service, when you take a picture of your iPhone, unless you

:41:21.:41:27.

turn it off you sync to the cloud and available on other devices,

:41:28.:41:33.

people love that but don't think about the implications about the

:41:34.:41:39.

data. We all do it. Do you think the companies have any responsibility to

:41:40.:41:42.

protect? Of course they do, and they are going to have more

:41:43.:41:44.

responsibility. There is a big change coming to how the EU

:41:45.:41:52.

regulates data protection. If a company is at fault for breach, they

:41:53.:41:55.

will be up for five-times their global turnover. That will focus the

:41:56.:41:59.

minds. It is a big one. Thank you very much. Many of you watching will

:42:00.:42:03.

not care about football, know about football or even be particularly

:42:04.:42:09.

aware that today was the final 24-hour window for club transfers,

:42:10.:42:14.

this one is for you. Forget about Falcao, Di Maria, Torres, we give

:42:15.:42:20.

you the bluffer's guide to the economics of deadline day.

:42:21.:42:30.

Today is the end of the summer transfer window, it is deadline day,

:42:31.:42:37.

there will be no more of this until the window reopens for January. The

:42:38.:42:47.

last day of the transfer window is a day that is already lauded with

:42:48.:42:52.

cliche, think of all the men holding up shirts to cameras, all those men

:42:53.:42:58.

hiding from cameras in dark tinted Range Rovers, and Harry Redknapp's

:42:59.:43:01.

interviews through a car window. It is a new institution, despite all

:43:02.:43:06.

that tradition. It only started in the early 2000s, it seems fair to

:43:07.:43:11.

ask is having transfer window even a good idea? Here is a question worth

:43:12.:43:16.

asking, what is the effect of the transfer window? Arsenal fans might

:43:17.:43:21.

think it just makes them missable, they haven't had a flurry of new

:43:22.:43:25.

arrivals to fire them up. The only excitement this week is the arrival

:43:26.:43:30.

of Danny Wellbeck from Manchester United. Some locals seem to be

:43:31.:43:34.

giving up on football. We asked an expert on how you work the markets?

:43:35.:43:39.

A short transfer window will enable the participants in the market to

:43:40.:43:43.

compare their possible transactions in a short amount of time and there

:43:44.:43:49.

by find the right price for a player and there is lots of indication that

:43:50.:43:52.

the prices reflect the prayers very much. Just as you have a market, a

:43:53.:43:56.

physical market where people come together and compare prices, the

:43:57.:44:02.

transfer window does this in a short time frame. Why does everyone wait

:44:03.:44:06.

until the last day of the transperwindow to seal their deals?

:44:07.:44:12.

-- transfer window to seal their deals? There is lots of things at

:44:13.:44:18.

play, like buying a house you might have a chain, you have to sell one

:44:19.:44:21.

player to get another. Every bit of the chain has to work and it takes

:44:22.:44:25.

place on a single day and the last day is a good candidate for this to

:44:26.:44:30.

take place. The second one is people play poker, an act of brinkmanship,

:44:31.:44:35.

because if they have several buyers for transfer they might try to get a

:44:36.:44:39.

maximum price. If they wait until the last minute they hold out longer

:44:40.:44:42.

and strengthen the bargaining position. The next Biggs question is

:44:43.:44:47.

pretty -- big question is pretty simple, can clubs buy success? There

:44:48.:44:51.

is a well functioning market in football players. There is a lot of

:44:52.:44:54.

information about the players in the market. A lot of them are traded on

:44:55.:44:59.

a regular basis. That means that the prices paid in the transfer market

:45:00.:45:05.

tend to reflect reliably the value of the players. Teams that spend big

:45:06.:45:10.

are the ones that perform well, you can show that over time to be a

:45:11.:45:15.

reliable relationship. This Graf shows club spending over league

:45:16.:45:20.

positions over spending for 2012. Spending more making you more likely

:45:21.:45:21.

to do well. R Look at how the effect of the

:45:22.:45:41.

managers is dwarfed by the presence of money. A lot of the big signings

:45:42.:45:45.

in Europe are stars of the recent World Cup, it is worth pondering how

:45:46.:45:49.

do World Cups affect the transfer market? Well the Professor's

:45:50.:45:54.

research suggests that clubs often overpay for World Cup stars. People

:45:55.:45:59.

overvalue players because they have noticed the performance very

:46:00.:46:03.

recently, that may not be the best indicator of their long-term

:46:04.:46:06.

performance. All fans hope their clubs will get a unique player

:46:07.:46:09.

relatively cheaply who can inspire them to greatness. But, in general,

:46:10.:46:15.

as Arsenal fans know, you won't win big if you don't spend big.

:46:16.:46:21.

Whilst we have been on air you will be pleased to know that Ramires has

:46:22.:46:26.

signed for Hull City. Now the papers.

:46:27.:46:44.

That's it for tonight. We leave but the debut of 16-year-old Max

:46:45.:46:49.

Verstapen, who was yesterday unveiled as the world's

:46:50.:46:52.

youngest-ever Formula One driver to a crowd in his native Rotterdam, he

:46:53.:46:58.

soon put to bed charges that he just got the gig because of his family

:46:59.:46:59.

connections. Good evening, generally dryer and

:47:00.:47:43.

warmer conditions this week compared with recent weeks. We start the day

:47:44.:47:47.

with mist and low cloud across some central and eastern areas, a grey

:47:48.:47:51.

start here. Some light rain or drizzle possible. It could be foggy

:47:52.:47:54.

first thing. Lifting and shifting and a lot of dry and sunny weather

:47:55.:47:56.

to

:47:57.:47:57.

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