09/09/2014 Newsnight


09/09/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.


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The dash for Scotland, the Prime Minister hoists the saltire over

:00:00.:00:15.

Number Ten. But will Cameron, Miliband and Clegg's last-minute

:00:16.:00:18.

trip turn into a clumsy move if Scotland is ready to let go. There

:00:19.:00:23.

is a contempt across the country for Westminster practices and

:00:24.:00:24.

politicians, they have no credibility left. But the examine is

:00:25.:00:29.

neck and neck, not over yet. Big names are still in the battle. But

:00:30.:00:39.

if Scotland does go, what is the etiquette for what Britain will be

:00:40.:00:45.

called. What I'm calling is a conscious uncoupling. Think of it as

:00:46.:00:49.

Chris Martin and Gwnyeth. It is essentially us parting. The Man

:00:50.:01:01.

Booker Prize shortlist is out, how do you discuss a book more than its

:01:02.:01:06.

cover. We will discuss. Good evening, don't panic for Scots

:01:07.:01:10.

who want to stay in the union, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband

:01:11.:01:13.

are on the way. Except perhaps their rush to Scotland tomorrow is for

:01:14.:01:18.

some precisely the kind of gesture politics that increasing numbers of

:01:19.:01:22.

voters are poised to reject. And raising the Scottish flag over

:01:23.:01:25.

Number Ten this afternoon, which promptly fell down made the whole

:01:26.:01:30.

thing feel a little bit of an episode of excruciating satire, not

:01:31.:01:32.

a considered approach episode of excruciating satire, not

:01:33.:01:36.

the break up of our 300-year-old union. Tonight the Prime Minister

:01:37.:01:39.

has penned passionate plea to the Scots in an article to be published

:01:40.:01:43.

in tomorrow's Daily Mail, he says "our message is simple, we want you

:01:44.:01:48.

to stay". Well our political editor is here. Tell us more about this

:01:49.:01:52.

article, this message. This is the vision thing, this is campaign that

:01:53.:01:56.

has been criticised for being too technocratic, too much about

:01:57.:02:00.

Alastair Darling, a former Chancellor, telling the Scottish

:02:01.:02:03.

people risk, risk, risk, that is all people should think about. Now we

:02:04.:02:06.

are starting to see from David Cameron in the Daily Mail tomorrow

:02:07.:02:10.

an emotional argument about what the two countries have achieved

:02:11.:02:15.

together. He talks about defeating fascism as Scottish and English,

:02:16.:02:18.

people together, the Scottish enlightenment. These are things lots

:02:19.:02:22.

of his people have wanted him to talk about but he has felt inhibited

:02:23.:02:26.

to do so. Now we are getting more of the emotional thing. The other thing

:02:27.:02:29.

is you have this is about the Scottish people first and foremost,

:02:30.:02:32.

but it is also about David Cameron's people back in London that think he

:02:33.:02:35.

hasn't done enough to save the union. Briefly, does it look like

:02:36.:02:39.

panic, is it really panic? I think there is a sense that this campaign

:02:40.:02:42.

has not gone as the three main party leaders in Westminster would have

:02:43.:02:46.

liked. Of course the message from David Cameron will only work if the

:02:47.:02:51.

three leaders of the main UK parties can actually get a fair hearing from

:02:52.:02:55.

voters in Scotland if they still want to listen. Emily has been in

:02:56.:02:59.

Edinburgh. This is the Better Together

:03:00.:03:03.

campaign, a joint appearance by the three party leaders, and this is

:03:04.:03:08.

what they are not doing. I'm certainly not panics, not panicking,

:03:09.:03:13.

not panicking! That is good, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband

:03:14.:03:16.

are certainly not panicking either, that is why Ed Miliband has

:03:17.:03:19.

encouraged every British town to wave a saltire. The one at Downing

:03:20.:03:23.

Street seemed to need a little encouragement all of its own. They

:03:24.:03:27.

are all coming up here tomorrow, abandoning PMQs to do so. The

:03:28.:03:30.

Westminster parties have set out a plan to offer more powers to

:03:31.:03:34.

Scotland, income tax flexibility will be one. We have all agreed

:03:35.:03:37.

there should be powers over income tax, we have all agreed there should

:03:38.:03:41.

go more welfare devolved to the Scottish Parliament, we have also

:03:42.:03:44.

all agreed some of the things we need to leave out. We have all

:03:45.:03:47.

agreed that actually our businesses in Scotland don't want to see

:03:48.:03:50.

different rates of corporation tax both sides of the border. You can

:03:51.:03:53.

see there are broad themes developing here, but we want to

:03:54.:03:59.

involve civic Scotland too, this isn't owned by us but Scotland. It

:04:00.:04:02.

is a way for Scotland to shape powers in the

:04:03.:04:05.

is a way for Scotland to shape away from the UK. With another poll

:04:06.:04:10.

out showing the two sides neck and neck, minus the undecided the yes

:04:11.:04:15.

campaign was in good complete over in Parliament Square supporters had

:04:16.:04:19.

found any conceivable European language to try to convince voter

:04:20.:04:23.

the EU membership would be safe in their hands. The language working

:04:24.:04:27.

wonders in their campaign is one that demonises Westminster.

:04:28.:04:34.

The yes examine is characterised as being the emotionup. The one that

:04:35.:04:38.

says "if you love Scotland set her free". There is another element,

:04:39.:04:45.

Alex Salmond is doing in Scotland what Nigel Farage does in Britain,

:04:46.:04:50.

give a sense of being anti-politics and anti-Westminster, they are all

:04:51.:04:53.

the same only we are offering something different. Your campaign

:04:54.:05:01.

has used the language of love of Scotland but hatred of Westminster?

:05:02.:05:05.

In Scotland there is contempt, in the speeches I have made in

:05:06.:05:09.

Newcastle, Manchester and Carlyle, one thing was absolutely clear,

:05:10.:05:12.

there is a huge distrust of Westminster and Westminster

:05:13.:05:15.

politician, you don't need polls to tell you that, although the distrust

:05:16.:05:19.

in the polling figures is spectacular, but you take the three

:05:20.:05:23.

unionists party on offer today, their collective distrust amongst

:05:24.:05:27.

the Scottish people according to a poll is minus 100, that is

:05:28.:05:30.

extraordinary. There is a contempt across the country for Westminster

:05:31.:05:35.

practices and politicians, they have no credibility left. This is Craig

:05:36.:05:41.

Miller, a working-class Edinburgh suburb and now a heartland of the

:05:42.:05:45.

yes vote. Where once they voted Labour, now they seem to have

:05:46.:05:50.

switched over or off from. From those we have talked to today there

:05:51.:05:54.

is not a lot of trust for any of the parties, and yet they still have a

:05:55.:05:58.

yearning to see an independent Scotland flourish. We have always

:05:59.:06:01.

been ruled by England, I would like to see us being our own country.

:06:02.:06:06.

William Smith used to vote Labour, he doesn't now. He tells me he as

:06:07.:06:10.

disabled, cared for by his wife and he's looking to the yes vote to

:06:11.:06:14.

improve his lot. Voting Labour is just giving them another vote. I'm

:06:15.:06:22.

not going to do that, I'm all for independence for myself and the

:06:23.:06:25.

whole area is for independence. If there was something that the Better

:06:26.:06:28.

Together, the no vote put on the table, like new powers for Scotland,

:06:29.:06:33.

or they said well let you look at income tax and sort out that, is

:06:34.:06:35.

there anything that could change your mind now? No, nothing could

:06:36.:06:41.

change my mind, just voting yes. For a long time the yes campaign had

:06:42.:06:47.

struggled to attract female voters, the latest poll suggests that is

:06:48.:06:54.

closing. April Prince William has followed the campaign -- April has

:06:55.:06:57.

followed the campaign closely. I don't like the way the country is

:06:58.:07:01.

being run at the moment. It should certainly be fairer, I don't agree

:07:02.:07:04.

with the bedroom tax they have introduced, I think that Scotland

:07:05.:07:08.

could do well and prosper with its own revenue that is we have. What do

:07:09.:07:11.

you think will decide you? I think it will be yes, but I want it to be

:07:12.:07:15.

a no, because I want to see Match of the Day on a Saturday. We spoke to

:07:16.:07:18.

about 20 people in this neighbourhood only one person, a

:07:19.:07:24.

Polish immigrant, told me they were voting for the Better Together

:07:25.:07:27.

campaign. Their work is cut out for them over the next ten days. The

:07:28.:07:31.

question of why they failed to offer any exciting new powers much earlier

:07:32.:07:35.

or even include them as an option on the ballot paper will haunt them.

:07:36.:07:38.

One thing is clear though, Scotland will never be the same again.

:07:39.:07:43.

Whatever happens next week the status quo is no longer an option.

:07:44.:07:47.

If Scotland votes yes it goes independent. If it votes no, well it

:07:48.:07:51.

still gets more independence. And anyone who thinks that the story

:07:52.:07:56.

ends here in Scotland is sorely mistaken. The genie, it seems, is

:07:57.:08:01.

out of the bottle, and that growing appetite for devolution will happen

:08:02.:08:05.

all over the UK. It looks like it is here to stay.

:08:06.:08:10.

As Emily said, whatever Scottish voters vote for, they will end up

:08:11.:08:14.

with either independence, their own country, or more control of their

:08:15.:08:17.

own affairs at the Scottish Parliament. But where does that

:08:18.:08:21.

leave the other constituent parts of what would be a rather dis-United

:08:22.:08:30.

Kingdom. This is such a conundrum? One expert described it to me as a

:08:31.:08:34.

constitutional bomb about to go off because the consequences are so many

:08:35.:08:37.

we can't get our heads around them. Scotland will get more powers,

:08:38.:08:41.

whatever happens. But where does that leave Westminster? We can show

:08:42.:08:45.

you the problem, you have 650 MPs in the House of Commons, of them 59 are

:08:46.:08:52.

Scottish MPs, we break it down, you have 40 Labour, 11 Liberal

:08:53.:08:56.

Democrats, six SNP, one poor lonely Tory and so on. These MPs in

:08:57.:09:00.

Scotland can vote in the Commons chamber on issues that don't affect

:09:01.:09:06.

their constituents, casual observers of politics will know it is the West

:09:07.:09:10.

Lothian Question, it is not academic any more, we have to get our heads

:09:11.:09:18.

around it. Labour stands to gain from arrangement. Even the most

:09:19.:09:23.

senior figures are worried about it. We have seen a number of changes to

:09:24.:09:27.

the constitutional issues in the UK, many of which have been great for

:09:28.:09:32.

areas affected. But we need to have a constitutional convention, all

:09:33.:09:34.

three parties should be committed to that. To look at the overall

:09:35.:09:39.

arrangements in the UK. The situation of England and the region,

:09:40.:09:43.

decentralising power away from London and the south-east, and

:09:44.:09:48.

reinvigourating the politics to go beyond the scandals of recent years

:09:49.:09:51.

and move forward. Fascinating to hear such a strong message from Jack

:09:52.:09:54.

McConnell, a former First Minister himself, this is serious? Drastic

:09:55.:09:58.

ideas are being considered left right and centre. One idea is the

:09:59.:10:01.

English parliament, you would have a Scottish Parliament and down south

:10:02.:10:05.

you would have to have another body, called the English parliament, it

:10:06.:10:09.

could be in Coventry and Doncaster, I don't know where, but English MPs

:10:10.:10:13.

would talk about English laws. The problem is you would

:10:14.:10:15.

would talk about English laws. The some kind of UK parliament where all

:10:16.:10:18.

that joins us would be discussed who is more important the person leading

:10:19.:10:22.

the UK parliament or the person on the English parliament. There is

:10:23.:10:25.

problems with that one. The next one is the idea the Conservatives

:10:26.:10:28.

favoured, English votes for English laws. We earlier spoke to Lord

:10:29.:10:33.

Bakeer who did a lot of work for the Conservatives on it. He favours

:10:34.:10:37.

splitting business into two types in the Commons. I think the building of

:10:38.:10:47.

the House of Commons is suited to this, the English members deal with

:10:48.:10:51.

on Monday, Tuesday and Fridays dealing with English matters, and

:10:52.:10:55.

Wednesday and Thursday dealing with matters not devolved, like defence,

:10:56.:10:59.

War and Peace, the currency, NATO, Europe. That sounds sensible, lots

:11:00.:11:05.

of us work shifts? Road to parliament is a problem. There is a

:11:06.:11:09.

more profound problem than the breezy way described there. If you

:11:10.:11:13.

have English-only MPs voting on certain days, this would probably be

:11:14.:11:17.

likely to favour a Conservative administration, and on Wednesday and

:11:18.:11:19.

Thursday we would have all of them coming together and you would be

:11:20.:11:22.

likely to have a Labour Party that is able to get through a majority,

:11:23.:11:26.

loosely speaking. What you are having on different days of the week

:11:27.:11:29.

different administration, an Education Secretary for the Tories

:11:30.:11:32.

on Monday and Tuesday and another one for Labour on the Wednesday and

:11:33.:11:39.

Thursday. To my mind that is quite complicated. John Redwood is shaking

:11:40.:11:42.

his head and we will explain why later.

:11:43.:11:45.

We will hear from John Redwood later, a supporter of an English

:11:46.:11:48.

parliament later. Do you get a sense that the

:11:49.:11:52.

Government itself has even started to get its head around a spaghetti

:11:53.:11:56.

of what the options might be? We have heard talks about the

:11:57.:11:59.

Conservative idea, it is in their manifesto, the Liberal Democrats are

:12:00.:12:02.

absolute constitutional geeks and all in clover today because they

:12:03.:12:06.

have ideas. What it involves is you would have massive decentralisation

:12:07.:12:11.

down to cities. It would mean you could have more Scotland but cities

:12:12.:12:15.

too. So when they meet in Westminster or wherever there

:12:16.:12:18.

wouldn't be disparity in their powers. Nick Clegg today did suggest

:12:19.:12:23.

at the same time as the new powers announced for Scotland some clarity

:12:24.:12:28.

over what to do with Westminster. As suggested, John Redwood has been

:12:29.:12:31.

here nodding and alternatively shaking his head through that, and

:12:32.:12:35.

Peter Hain for Labour is also here, they have been taking a look at the

:12:36.:12:38.

issue. John Redwood, if Scotland votes no, they get extra powers,

:12:39.:12:43.

that West Lothian Question becomes more acute. What should happen in

:12:44.:12:46.

simple terms? We have lobsided devolution and it would be even more

:12:47.:12:51.

lob sided if we just gave more powers to Scotland. We want fair

:12:52.:12:54.

devolution, I would say all the powers devolved to the Scottish

:12:55.:12:57.

Parliament in Edinburgh should be devolved to the English parliament

:12:58.:13:01.

in Westminster. We are happy to do both jobs. It should be devolved to

:13:02.:13:05.

the Welsh Assembly in Wales and it should be fair, I don't think we

:13:06.:13:08.

should have first and second class devolution for Scotland and Wales,

:13:09.:13:12.

and no devolution for England. You know the one thing I didn't disagree

:13:13.:13:16.

with was we don't need two education secretaries. There would be an

:13:17.:13:21.

English Education Secretary in the English parliament, but there

:13:22.:13:24.

wouldn't be a union Education Secretary because there is a

:13:25.:13:27.

Scottish and Welsh Education Secretary. He's right isn't he? It

:13:28.:13:31.

would be even more farcical to carry on as we are with Scottish MPs

:13:32.:13:35.

having a say over matters that don't affect their constituent, because

:13:36.:13:38.

there would be fewer decision about Scotland taken at Westminster? The

:13:39.:13:44.

status quo is dead. Whatever happens next Thursday, what we need to do, I

:13:45.:13:47.

hope there will be a no vote. I expect there will be. But what we

:13:48.:13:52.

need to do in that event is move to what Britain has really been going

:13:53.:13:55.

towards, which is a federal structure. Now that should have more

:13:56.:14:01.

powers for Wales, more powers for Scotland and more powers for

:14:02.:14:04.

England, which is the most centralised part of the UK now.

:14:05.:14:08.

Highly centralised in London. And England, with the exception of

:14:09.:14:12.

London, should have, and by the way Ed Miliband made an important speech

:14:13.:14:16.

about devolution to city regions, or regions of England. You could see

:14:17.:14:21.

for example Manchester City region wanting powers devolved and the east

:14:22.:14:24.

of England wanting it. You are shaking your head now? It has to be

:14:25.:14:28.

devolution England, England is my country and we want the same respect

:14:29.:14:35.

as Scotland. We want an English parliament in London because it is

:14:36.:14:39.

the capital city and we will govern England in the whole way. I

:14:40.:14:44.

disagree. Would would you say you are Welsh, I'm speaking for England

:14:45.:14:48.

and we want our own English parliament. I'm also a strong

:14:49.:14:52.

believer in Britain. What we need is a federal structure based

:14:53.:14:55.

constitutionally in Westminster. It is a nonsense for example that our

:14:56.:15:01.

existing parliament in Westminster could in principle abolish the

:15:02.:15:04.

Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, it would never happen, but

:15:05.:15:09.

it is a constitutional nonsense that possibility exists constitutionally

:15:10.:15:12.

you need to design a federal structure, I don't think most people

:15:13.:15:15.

in England want to be run from London. I think the north-east and

:15:16.:15:18.

parts of Yorkshire, Cornwall and so on want their own power, and then

:15:19.:15:24.

you restructure. We tested this in your referendum and we lost? It was

:15:25.:15:27.

on flawed model in which there were no serious powers and people thought

:15:28.:15:31.

they were being sold a pup and they were. Politicians time and time over

:15:32.:15:36.

the years suggest power being held more closely to communities. You

:15:37.:15:40.

referred to the referendum in the north-east, offering a regional

:15:41.:15:44.

assembly that was overwhelmingly beaten as a prosal. It was a Mickey

:15:45.:15:49.

-- proposal. It was a Mickey Mouse one. You didn't say that at the

:15:50.:15:54.

time. They don't want local mayors or Police Commissioners, and time

:15:55.:15:56.

and time again people don't turn out? We want an English parliament,

:15:57.:16:01.

Peter, it is simple. I think what needs to happen if we are talking

:16:02.:16:05.

about Westminster, we need to have Westminster restructured so that

:16:06.:16:09.

English MPs have more of a say over English law, but I don't think you

:16:10.:16:14.

want first and second-class MPs. You wouldn't stop Scottish or Welsh or

:16:15.:16:21.

Northern Irish MPs facing that sort of structure? I would say, and the

:16:22.:16:26.

former clerk of the House looked at this, in the case of English laws,

:16:27.:16:30.

when they went into committee the detailed work that was done on them

:16:31.:16:35.

should be English-only MPs, when it comes to the big votes on the floor

:16:36.:16:37.

of the Commons it should be everyone. We are second class then,

:16:38.:16:42.

England wants the same as Scotland, so if Scotland can make her own laws

:16:43.:16:48.

England will make her own laws. You want a centralised elite in England

:16:49.:16:52.

running the whole of England, I want power devolved. You are Welsh, I am

:16:53.:16:55.

answering illusion, I want my country to have the same as

:16:56.:16:58.

Scotland. I can have an opinion about it. I want to see all of

:16:59.:17:03.

England represented in the English parliament. What about the other

:17:04.:17:08.

countries, you are in the unusual country of having been Secretary of

:17:09.:17:10.

State for Wales and also Northern Ireland. What happens at Stormont?

:17:11.:17:17.

What happens in Cardiff, is something about to be unleashed, it

:17:18.:17:23.

appears Scotland overnight is being offered a rapidly compressed

:17:24.:17:26.

timetable of power being handed over and Cardiff and Stormont sit back

:17:27.:17:29.

and watch? It is a very fair question, I'm in favour of much more

:17:30.:17:32.

devolution to Wales. I don't think you can give all the goodies to

:17:33.:17:37.

Scotland, because there has been a seismic change or rumbling there. I

:17:38.:17:42.

think you have got to make sure Wales gets proper devolution, beyond

:17:43.:17:46.

where we are taking it now, I think Northern Ireland the same. If we

:17:47.:17:52.

don't do this, if the no vote wins this time as I hope and think it

:17:53.:17:56.

will, if you don't do this the next time it will be Scottish

:17:57.:17:59.

independence. Because I think people are fed up with the Westminster

:18:00.:18:04.

class, not just in Scotland, but elsewhere. In other parts of England

:18:05.:18:09.

and Wales as well, and they want big change and they want more say. It

:18:10.:18:13.

might be rather a shame for those voters in Scotland, still about

:18:14.:18:16.

half, who want to stay with the union, that it is only now that

:18:17.:18:20.

Westminster politicians have actually been waking up to what they

:18:21.:18:24.

want. John Redwood, if the union is lost, many of your colleagues are

:18:25.:18:28.

clear privately that in their view the Prime Minister will have to

:18:29.:18:32.

resign. Is there a chance of that? No, he has made very clear that he

:18:33.:18:36.

will not resign, he had to do this, he had to offer the referendum, it

:18:37.:18:41.

wasn't in his gift to say no. Once Scotland had elected a majority

:18:42.:18:44.

Scottish nationalist Government wanting independence, the only fair

:18:45.:18:47.

thing to do is put it to the people. It is not his fault if it is lost, I

:18:48.:18:51.

hope it is won for keeping the union together. If it is lost, that is the

:18:52.:18:54.

result in Scotland and we shouldn't regard it as a commentary on him.

:18:55.:18:58.

Thank you very much for coming in. The leaders of the UK parties might

:18:59.:19:01.

have The leaders of the UK parties might

:19:02.:19:05.

the need to campaign if they want to keep the union. One of their bete

:19:06.:19:09.

noires though has been at it for many months. George Galloway,

:19:10.:19:14.

formally of the Labour Party, now the Respect Party MP and celebrity

:19:15.:19:18.

Big Brother contestant, although that is best forgotten maybe, has

:19:19.:19:23.

been packing out Town Halls around Scotland for months, urging voters

:19:24.:19:29.

to say "naw", we went to see him in Paisley on the outskirts of Glasgow.

:19:30.:19:42.

Paisley Town Hall hasn't hosted anything this big since it

:19:43.:19:51.

celebrated the life of Gerry Rafferty, but could he persuade the

:19:52.:19:58.

mainly Labour audience to say no. Alex Fergsuon talked about "squeaky

:19:59.:20:03.

bum time", we are in that now. Oust ed by Labour and Respect MP, he's

:20:04.:20:09.

fresh from a physical take, allegedly for his stance against

:20:10.:20:13.

Israel. Just over a week ago I was lying on a London street with broken

:20:14.:20:17.

ribs and a dislocated jaw and I'm still here in Paisley tonight. For

:20:18.:20:27.

no other reason than I want to insist that by voting no it doesn't

:20:28.:20:36.

make you less Scottish. # You won't get me

:20:37.:20:39.

# I'm part of the union # Till the day I die.

:20:40.:20:47.

Earlier Newsnight sought out George Galloway back stage, the Just Say

:20:48.:20:52.

Naw tour is his attempt to add a spark. A year ago I realised that

:20:53.:20:57.

the people running the official no campaign and the structure across

:20:58.:21:02.

class and political nature of the structure of the no campaign was

:21:03.:21:06.

seriously flawed. I have been right, I'm sorry to say. I have been right

:21:07.:21:14.

all along. That is unlike you? I momentarily pause because I have

:21:15.:21:16.

been right about most important things. People don't automatically

:21:17.:21:21.

go to Galloway for humility, but for many on this he speaks the truth.

:21:22.:21:26.

The Better Together campaign has spent ?4 million and I haven't seen

:21:27.:21:32.

anything good that they have done. What do you think gives you the

:21:33.:21:39.

right to come up to Scotland and say why we should not vote against

:21:40.:21:45.

independence? Did Kenny Dalglish become English when he went to play

:21:46.:21:49.

for Liverpool, what kind of mentality is this. You have actually

:21:50.:21:52.

been speaking in this meeting nearly as long as me. Galloway junior at

:21:53.:21:59.

eight weeks old was oblivious to the fuss, we brought along Mr Ali and

:22:00.:22:03.

his son, George Galloway has appealed for many British Muslims

:22:04.:22:06.

but these two are committed yes voters. Most of it was just ranting

:22:07.:22:12.

and raving, I respect George great deal and some of his stuff about

:22:13.:22:17.

certain things was amazing, now he was just scaring the yes voters.

:22:18.:22:25.

Book signing and public speaking are appetite-inducing so, what better

:22:26.:22:29.

end to his 26th performance than a meal at Mr Ali's restaurant. This is

:22:30.:22:37.

Glasgow institution, in the 1960s a bus driver complained his chicken

:22:38.:22:44.

curry was too dry as Mr Ali's father was eating tomato soup, history was

:22:45.:22:47.

made. There was some left in the tin and when the curry came back that

:22:48.:22:53.

was mixed together and the chicken tikka masala was born. And has

:22:54.:22:56.

become our national dish? Absolutely. On both sides of the

:22:57.:23:01.

border, don't forget that. I'm trying to persuade you. We will vote

:23:02.:23:07.

with our hearts I'm afraid. Does your head say something different?

:23:08.:23:11.

My head always says something different. But sometimes we overrule

:23:12.:23:20.

our heads. We are Scots. Over curry we talk about the inclusiveness of

:23:21.:23:25.

Scottish patriotism. When there is family we had being wear kilts and

:23:26.:23:31.

we are proud to wear kilts because we feel that we can be Scottish and

:23:32.:23:39.

where Pakistani, and we can show that. We feel that we can fuse the

:23:40.:23:42.

two together. They are not different. Does that play into why

:23:43.:23:47.

you are voting yes? Absolutely. You can have all these good things but

:23:48.:23:51.

without breaking up the country. That's what I'm hoping people will

:23:52.:23:56.

reach that conclusion. Thank you darling. I feel we are not breaking

:23:57.:24:03.

up but we are evolving. If you went home, God forbid and told your wife

:24:04.:24:09.

tonight, we're not getting divorced, we're evolving, I'm moving out, you

:24:10.:24:14.

are moving out we're going to divide our assets, she would realise it was

:24:15.:24:20.

a divorce not an evolution. Yes, she's a no voter, I'm a yes voter!

:24:21.:24:29.

Women less keen on gambles. If emotion has been lacking on the no

:24:30.:24:34.

side it looms large around this table as Mr Galloway invokes the RAF

:24:35.:24:39.

heros of World War ll. We did it together and nobody asked whether

:24:40.:24:46.

the pilots flying above were from Suffolk or Sutherland, or which

:24:47.:24:50.

accent they spoke with, they were just us defending us. You have to

:24:51.:24:58.

think what's best for us? Give dad my regards, God bless you. Despite

:24:59.:25:03.

the respect on both sides, this is one potential convert lost. I'm

:25:04.:25:08.

going to the smoking lounge! The tour though goes on.

:25:09.:25:13.

Disagreements but still friends, but they might not get to keep the

:25:14.:25:17.

pound, but they would get to keep the same. An independent Scotland

:25:18.:25:21.

would still be called Scotland, but the remnants of the UK, what would

:25:22.:25:25.

that country be called? We have a few ideas.

:25:26.:25:35.

At the moment when discussing this constitutional upheaval,

:25:36.:25:37.

commentators have taken to calling the non-Scotland bits of our state

:25:38.:25:51.

"r UK" not exactly a keeper. When Labour changed they called it new

:25:52.:25:57.

Labour, but what about New Britain, that is taken by Papua New Guinea.

:25:58.:26:04.

It could be the former United Kingdom, like the former Yugoslavia,

:26:05.:26:11.

maybe not. We need to brain storm this, in the epicentre of

:26:12.:26:14.

Britishness we have John from the Now Show. Where do we start renaming

:26:15.:26:19.

what was the UK? We have to look to the modern world. This is the future

:26:20.:26:22.

and we have to think about this in the long-term. The way to do it is,

:26:23.:26:27.

think about what's happening f it happens is what I'm calling a

:26:28.:26:33.

conscious uncoupling. Think of it as Chris Martin and Gwnyeth, it is

:26:34.:26:36.

essentially us parting, all we need to do is right it on a

:26:37.:26:41.

self-righteous blog that is happening, ask the media to respect

:26:42.:26:45.

our privacy, have the conscious uncoupling, we are still friends but

:26:46.:26:49.

we no longer are together. What if it turns out that Scotland has been

:26:50.:26:54.

sleeping with Norway! There is that whole, was it once? Was it a long

:26:55.:26:59.

standing thing? Was it a full blown affair? Were they drunk, Scotland

:27:00.:27:04.

probably! But maybe rebranding could have its advantages, many non-Brits

:27:05.:27:18.

seem to struggle with our complex lamencatu re. All of us are

:27:19.:27:24.

disturbed by the crashing of the English embassy, the embassy of the

:27:25.:27:28.

United Kingdom in Iran. Isn't Scotland like a bit of England? No

:27:29.:27:32.

it is not. Britain I mean. The British Council has even made a

:27:33.:27:37.

video to help them out. Great Britain is a geographical term, it

:27:38.:27:41.

is a big island with Scotland, England and Wales on it. It is

:27:42.:27:47.

complicated. I can see that. Why can't we bring in the green of the

:27:48.:27:51.

Welsh flag? Unpicking this complexity sounds like a job for

:27:52.:27:55.

Welsh flag? Unpicking this rebranding expert? A lot of

:27:56.:27:57.

organisations have moved to initial, when you look at the initials of the

:27:58.:28:02.

three countries, the three legacy countries, England, Wales and

:28:03.:28:05.

Northern Ireland, EWN doesn't really work, it doesn't really resonate. It

:28:06.:28:13.

doesn't say much. But what if you play with those, NEW, "new", a new

:28:14.:28:20.

name for a new country, new United Kingdom, a country that looks to the

:28:21.:28:25.

future a country that is actually talking about tomorrow rather than

:28:26.:28:28.

yesterday, that leaves Scotland with its name, Scotland.

:28:29.:28:41.

Unfamiliar cultural times then. The real name, if this happens, will be

:28:42.:28:48.

probably the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

:28:49.:28:52.

Sounding rather like a familiar tune played on an unexpected instrument.

:28:53.:28:59.

Whatever the name, if Scotland leaves, what impact will that have

:29:00.:29:03.

on the sense of Britishness for the people who remain in the union.

:29:04.:29:07.

Union? With us are Vicky Featherstone, the Artistic Director

:29:08.:29:10.

of the Royal Court Theatre, who lived in Scotland as a young child,

:29:11.:29:15.

and again when she set up and ran the National Theatre of Scotland.

:29:16.:29:19.

And the historian, Tom Holland, who has written a letter signed by 200

:29:20.:29:23.

cultural luminaries asking Scotland to stay.

:29:24.:29:27.

Thank you for being here. On the name, Tom what would you call the

:29:28.:29:31.

rest of the UK? I guess it would be the United Kingdom of England, Wales

:29:32.:29:35.

and Northern Ireland. If Northern Ireland then joined the Republic of

:29:36.:29:39.

Ireland, we would be England and Wales, like Trinidad and Tobago. We

:29:40.:29:44.

may end up as Wessex and Northumbria, who knows. Why for you

:29:45.:29:49.

does it make a difference to your identity if Scotland chooses

:29:50.:29:53.

independence? Because although I'm very proud to be English, I like

:29:54.:29:57.

being English, I very much enjoy being British. I enjoy the tension

:29:58.:30:03.

and the sense of irony and perspective that gives me. If

:30:04.:30:08.

Scotland leaves a crucial part of my identity will go. I will find it

:30:09.:30:12.

very upsetting. What do you make of that? I really I'm pro-yes, I think

:30:13.:30:21.

that when I moved to Scotland I really felt I was British. I felt my

:30:22.:30:25.

liberal attitudes meant British was a positive thing and I wouldn't say

:30:26.:30:29.

I was English, I was there for six months and I had to come to terms

:30:30.:30:34.

with the fact that we were two very different countries, two brilliant

:30:35.:30:36.

countries but different and I was English and what did that mean. But

:30:37.:30:40.

you weren't both? I definitely wasn't both. I have a huge

:30:41.:30:43.

attachment of Scotland and proud of my time there. But for me Scotland

:30:44.:30:51.

had an infantalised relationship with England for many years, and now

:30:52.:30:55.

it is time to cut loose and be confident. Even though you have

:30:56.:30:59.

worked successfully in Scotland you don't feel it is part of your

:31:00.:31:03.

identity in any way? It is entirely part of my identity, I lived in

:31:04.:31:10.

India as a child and speak fluent Germany and I'm multiferocious in my

:31:11.:31:14.

identity. I don't feel nostalgic for a past. I feel it is really

:31:15.:31:18.

important these things can coexist. If you listen to Vicky, why is it

:31:19.:31:22.

anything to do with you, with the best will in the world? Because at

:31:23.:31:27.

the moment the Scots and the English and Northern Irish are all citizens

:31:28.:31:31.

of the same country. It seems to me that Britishness is a wonderful

:31:32.:31:34.

thing. One of the many wonderful things about Britishness is we don't

:31:35.:31:38.

talk about it and we are a bit embarrassed about it. The time has

:31:39.:31:42.

come to blow its trumpet and say to me what is impressive and wonderful

:31:43.:31:48.

about the union of England and Scotland is until the 7th century

:31:49.:31:51.

they were enemies tearing chunks out of each other, even into the 17th

:31:52.:31:56.

century they were invading each other's countries. They came

:31:57.:32:01.

together and miraculously they discovered, although they were very

:32:02.:32:04.

different countries they were very similar and their different

:32:05.:32:07.

traditions and values and ideals were compatible. The merging of the

:32:08.:32:13.

ideals created something wonderful, the Industrial Revolution, forging

:32:14.:32:17.

the enlightenment, beat fascism and forge the welfare state. I hope and

:32:18.:32:22.

believe what is happening now in Scotland with the independence

:32:23.:32:25.

referendum if it is a no will super charge the rest of the UK and the

:32:26.:32:29.

Scots will play the role they have always played which is to energise

:32:30.:32:34.

and revitalise the whole of Britain. When you listen to Tom talk so

:32:35.:32:38.

passionately about that, does it mean anything to you? It is an

:32:39.:32:41.

interesting historical perspective, this is about change and change is a

:32:42.:32:46.

good thing. If Scotland is set free and goes the way that many people

:32:47.:32:49.

are talking that it may go I think it is a really important moment for

:32:50.:32:52.

England. It is a really important moment for to us think about what is

:32:53.:32:55.

English identity that has very negative conotations in the past and

:32:56.:33:00.

to really become proud of that. Wouldn't the departure upset that

:33:01.:33:03.

balance, that cocktail that Tom has talked about? Yes, the cocktail

:33:04.:33:07.

absolutely definitely would be upset, but it is not a particularly

:33:08.:33:10.

healthy cocktail at the moment. And I think it is a very good

:33:11.:33:14.

opportunity for us to think of different ways. If we could change

:33:15.:33:19.

the metaphor, Salmond says if Scotland goes England will lose a

:33:20.:33:24.

grumpy lodger. That is not true. Scotland basically built this

:33:25.:33:28.

country. The Scots had a crucial role in it, when the yes campaigners

:33:29.:33:33.

talk about Westminster, what they are talking about essentially is the

:33:34.:33:37.

parliamentary system that Scots contributed just as much as the

:33:38.:33:41.

English and Welsh. It is the Scots who contributed to the Tory

:33:42.:33:45.

tradition, Walter Scott had a crucial role as Disraeli did. The

:33:46.:33:51.

Israel Kier Hardy is very clear. History is important and memories

:33:52.:33:55.

are important and the relationships and the friendships and the

:33:56.:34:00.

cross-cultural swirl is important. That is what the future comes from.

:34:01.:34:05.

What is very exciting is this is about democracy and people in

:34:06.:34:08.

Scotland suddenly saying our vote does matter and can matter and we

:34:09.:34:11.

can make a difference. I don't think we have felt like that in Britain

:34:12.:34:14.

for a very long time. It is about an incredible moment of an act of

:34:15.:34:17.

democracy and rembering the franchise is a revolutionary thing

:34:18.:34:20.

for us and that freedom is great. Thank you both very much indeed,

:34:21.:34:24.

that is all we have time for. This conversation will no doubt continue

:34:25.:34:27.

in the coming weeks. The results of a rather different

:34:28.:34:32.

kind of vote were released today. The shortlist of the Man Booker

:34:33.:34:38.

Prize. Although the suggestion appalled traditionalists of a

:34:39.:34:42.

sensitive disposition, this year for the first time American writers

:34:43.:34:45.

could enter. They have only captured two places on the shortlist.

:34:46.:34:56.

# Every day # I write the book

:34:57.:35:00.

Is this the best part of the literary life, not the reading, not

:35:01.:35:06.

the writing, but the launch party. In this case for the Man Booker

:35:07.:35:12.

Prize shortlist. The big talking point this year, opening the contest

:35:13.:35:17.

up to anyone writing in English. That means the Americans. Once the

:35:18.:35:28.

Man Booker Prize was the preserve of London literary circle, opened to

:35:29.:35:31.

authors from these islands and the Commonwealth. Not everyone has

:35:32.:35:35.

welcomed the rule change. I worry that the decision to include writers

:35:36.:35:39.

in English who weren't previously eligible, such as Americans, showed

:35:40.:35:44.

a lack of confidence on the part of the Man Booker Prize organisers.

:35:45.:35:50.

Hang on though there is a "but" coming? This year's prize showed

:35:51.:35:55.

they didn't need to feel that lack of confidence. The long list has UK

:35:56.:36:01.

and Commonwealth authors as does the shortlist. It is another really,

:36:02.:36:05.

really strong year. # If they ask me

:36:06.:36:10.

# I could write a book Two books by American authors have

:36:11.:36:15.

made the cut, To Rise Again at a Decent Hour by Joshua Ferris, which

:36:16.:36:22.

has been called the Catch 22 of dentistry, and We Are All Completely

:36:23.:36:24.

Beside Ourselves by Karen Jay Fowler, which has already picked up

:36:25.:36:29.

the Penn Faulkner Award for fiction and a favourite with booksellers and

:36:30.:36:33.

readers. As one of the two American judges on the panel this year, I

:36:34.:36:37.

have to say from my point of view it was never a bad thing that Americans

:36:38.:36:41.

were being admitted on to the list. Not because of jingoism or

:36:42.:36:47.

nationalism on my part, but because I want the best of the best, the

:36:48.:36:51.

very best that is being written in English today. British contenders

:36:52.:36:59.

include J by Howard Jacobson, a dark disphonian book from -- dystopian

:37:00.:37:09.

book. And How to be Both by Ali Smith. The third on the list is Neel

:37:10.:37:17.

Mukherjee with The Lives of Others, about a Bengali family. And Richard

:37:18.:37:23.

Flanagan is included for The Narrow Road to the Deep North, which tells

:37:24.:37:32.

of PoWs building the death raily. It has broad appeal the six. There are

:37:33.:37:39.

few readers who would find nothing there. There are title s on there.

:37:40.:37:50.

Not everybody will like Ali Smith's unusual approach, and not Howard

:37:51.:37:56.

Jacobson after The Finkler Question, I would like to tell them J is a

:37:57.:38:00.

different book from anything else he has written. As usual in this most

:38:01.:38:05.

gentile of prize fights. There will be almost as much contention on the

:38:06.:38:08.

contenders who didn't make it into the ring as those who have. Admirers

:38:09.:38:14.

of big-name authors like David Mitchell and Sarah Waters will feel

:38:15.:38:18.

their favourites deserved a crack at the title too. While some browse the

:38:19.:38:23.

shortlist, others run a book on it. One bookie was congratulating

:38:24.:38:26.

himself on his tipping today. The only shock for us this year was

:38:27.:38:30.

David Mitchell didn't make the cut, otherwise we had the first five of

:38:31.:38:35.

the six in the betting, all making it through to the shortlist. When we

:38:36.:38:40.

looked at the names, certainly the literary betting public looked at

:38:41.:38:43.

the names and there were strong names we thought were strong to make

:38:44.:38:52.

the shortlist to be proven right. Hang on, save some of that fizz, you

:38:53.:38:56.

are going to need it to toast the winner, who is announced next month.

:38:57.:39:03.

With us to chew over the list are Carol Birch whose novel was

:39:04.:39:07.

shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize in 2011, Erica Wagner, one of this

:39:08.:39:12.

year's all-important judges and Arifa Akbar, the literary editor of

:39:13.:39:16.

the Independent. Carol, firstly to you, when you were nominated, you

:39:17.:39:20.

know what this day feels like, did it change your life just making the

:39:21.:39:25.

list? Yes. Definitely. It was an incredible experience, it depends

:39:26.:39:28.

very much on the individual how you are going to react to it. If you are

:39:29.:39:32.

the kind of person who really likes being in the public eye, and you

:39:33.:39:38.

feel happy being interviewed and photographed it is a marvellous

:39:39.:39:41.

experience. If you are uneasy with that it is very, very stressful. For

:39:42.:39:45.

me it was a mixed bag. I wouldn't have missed it for the world but I

:39:46.:39:50.

did find it was as if, you know, you are kind of on adrenaline all the

:39:51.:39:54.

time and running on like that. It keeps you going and you are living

:39:55.:39:57.

out of a suitcase, your real life goes on hold for about, I don't

:39:58.:40:02.

know, a month or whatever it is. You do just kind of, you adapt. Were

:40:03.:40:08.

Where it counts in terms of book sales, did it make a difference? It

:40:09.:40:12.

did make a difference, it did help. It is very nice in that way. It is

:40:13.:40:16.

wonderful to be recognised, particularly when you have spent all

:40:17.:40:20.

these years sitting in a room on your own. Erica Wagner, you are a

:40:21.:40:28.

judge this year. You have lot of power over authors like Carol don't

:40:29.:40:32.

you? I suppose so. Windy call it power. I think we all have a great

:40:33.:40:39.

sense of responsibility. It is really fascinating and a remarkable

:40:40.:40:44.

task to read all of these books. It is a really difficult task, because

:40:45.:40:48.

one of the things that it remind you, and I have been a judge of the

:40:49.:40:54.

Man Booker Prize before in 2002, what you look at is really how

:40:55.:41:00.

vigorous fiction is. You are such a small group of people, a panel of

:41:01.:41:05.

six as I understand it. How can you judge definitively which is the best

:41:06.:41:09.

book. There are nearly 150 that were put forward? Yes, you can do the

:41:10.:41:17.

very best you can. You can have the most serious discussion, you can

:41:18.:41:25.

discuss each book on its merits. You can take the task absolutely

:41:26.:41:29.

seriously and feel passionate about it, which is what we all do. Are

:41:30.:41:37.

there issues with the way the Man Booker Prize and the whole fuss

:41:38.:41:45.

about prizes? I question the science behind judging selections sometimes.

:41:46.:41:47.

Take most of the prizes actually. There is a real feeling of

:41:48.:41:53.

recycling. So you know Erica no doubt that you are a brilliant

:41:54.:42:03.

Booker judge, you have done it once before, so has AC Grayling. It is

:42:04.:42:09.

the same people and the same names and that makes me think it is a bit

:42:10.:42:14.

of a closed circle of people and they are doing the rounds of the

:42:15.:42:19.

prices. There are other ways to do prizes, and others have done them

:42:20.:42:24.

differently. You get parallel panels and a big academy, and people

:42:25.:42:29.

randomly picked. I thought to the Literary Director of the prize who

:42:30.:42:35.

said this is the selection process, he goes to party like this one and

:42:36.:42:39.

somebody goes over and says what about so and so. Of course there is

:42:40.:42:43.

a advisory panel but there is a huge element of being in the room. Being

:42:44.:42:48.

in the know and in the room. What do you say about that, a kabal? I would

:42:49.:42:54.

beg to differ. One thing I would say, one of our judges this year is

:42:55.:43:02.

Stan Glazer, who is the first scientist to judge the Booker Prize.

:43:03.:43:09.

He's someone who comes right from outside the so called literary

:43:10.:43:17.

world. I'm not having a pot shot at this particular jury, you must agree

:43:18.:43:21.

it is the same names and faces. There is an attempt to bring in

:43:22.:43:30.

people like Dan. With Man Booker we saw a Downton Abbey star was brought

:43:31.:43:35.

on for the love of poetry and literature. There was efforts made.

:43:36.:43:41.

You could have an inventive approach, the Foley Prize they have

:43:42.:43:45.

large academy and pool. They have a ratings systems for the books,

:43:46.:43:49.

everything in the 100 pool votes. You have bailies. A real -- Bailey's

:43:50.:43:59.

a real reader gets involved. In terms of what is actually being

:44:00.:44:02.

judged, what books are being written right now. Carol, having looked at

:44:03.:44:07.

the list, what does it tell bus what we are reading right now and what

:44:08.:44:11.

does it tell us about culture? It is diverse and interesting. I haven't

:44:12.:44:15.

read any of them I'm not the ideal person to talk about this. There is

:44:16.:44:21.

so many books being published, it is quite a healthy literary scene at

:44:22.:44:27.

the moment There is a lot of invention, someone like Ali Smith

:44:28.:44:30.

offering two versions of the same novel. All these gloomy predictions

:44:31.:44:41.

that the November is -- novel is dead, people are doing really

:44:42.:44:43.

interesting things. We are coming to the present moment now with on-line

:44:44.:44:48.

stories and that. Erica are you seeing that, certainly some of the

:44:49.:44:50.

books on the list, there is the story of the New York dentist who

:44:51.:44:56.

has his identity stolen on-line. Is that the sign that authors are now,

:44:57.:45:01.

and maybe only now beginning to grapple with the real changes all

:45:02.:45:08.

around us? I think now those, that sense of the way we live

:45:09.:45:12.

particularly with technology. That's not something new any more. It is

:45:13.:45:19.

part of the weather. If you are writing a novel set in the present

:45:20.:45:24.

day. That will be there, however you engage with it. I think that what

:45:25.:45:31.

all of these books show and this is definitely speaking to something

:45:32.:45:37.

that was said. I think there is an amazing adventurousness on the part,

:45:38.:45:42.

not just of writers but readers too. I think readers really are willing

:45:43.:45:47.

to engage with sophisticated story telling. More adventurous perhaps

:45:48.:45:54.

than the historical look back to past, is nostalgia dead Carol? I

:45:55.:45:59.

don't think it is dead I think there is room for everything. Everything

:46:00.:46:02.

should be there, and everything should have the chance to be on that

:46:03.:46:09.

list. I would say it miss characterises historical novels to

:46:10.:46:13.

call them necessarily nostalgic. I really don't like this genre thing

:46:14.:46:17.

we have, this idea that some things are literature and some aren't. We

:46:18.:46:21.

just have good books and they can be in all the different genres. We have

:46:22.:46:28.

seen in Booker that the minute a list becomes readable, accessible,

:46:29.:46:33.

there is a lot of snotty disapproval of it. That was my year. My

:46:34.:46:40.

favourite description of Booker is Posh Bingo. Which Julia Barnes

:46:41.:46:46.

called it. We will leave you with that description of the Booker

:46:47.:46:52.

Prize, that is all we have time to do tonight. Emily will be here

:46:53.:46:57.

tomorrow night. Good night. A little mist and fog to start the

:46:58.:47:06.

day. It shouldn't last too long. Most of us looking at a pleasant day

:47:07.:47:12.

with good spells of sunshine. Light winds for most, breeze

:47:13.:47:13.

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