11/09/2014 Newsnight


11/09/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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By this time just one week from now the polls in Scotland will be closed

:00:00.:00:12.

and many of the record 97% of those eligible who registered to vote will

:00:13.:00:15.

have marked their X for independence or the union. Now Scotland is place

:00:16.:00:20.

where every politician wants to be. Today a trainload of Labour MPs

:00:21.:00:25.

turned up in Glasgow to preach the goes elf Better Together by every

:00:26.:00:31.

argument possible. We will be talking to one of the yes campaign's

:00:32.:00:37.

biggest donors. I am of the view that the accused acted too hastily

:00:38.:00:44.

and used excessive force. In the second sense it is clear his conduct

:00:45.:00:52.

was negligent. Negligent but not guilty of premeditated murder. Oscar

:00:53.:00:56.

Pistorius learns his fate tomorrow. How will South Africa respond.

:00:57.:01:01.

I made it clear we will hunt down terrorists that threaten our

:01:02.:01:04.

country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take

:01:05.:01:09.

action against ISIS in Syria and Iraq. A new campaign of bombing

:01:10.:01:13.

against the Islamic State wherever they may be. We will ask the Syrian

:01:14.:01:17.

Government what they think of that, and hear from the world's most

:01:18.:01:21.

famous diplomat, Henry Kissinger. This man beat terrifying odds to

:01:22.:01:27.

beat the Ebola virus, thousands didn't, how did he do it and why is

:01:28.:01:34.

he going back? Good evening, the day began with

:01:35.:01:39.

claims and counter claims over the importance of two banks RBS and

:01:40.:01:42.

Lloyd's considering moving their legal homes to London in the event

:01:43.:01:47.

of a yes vote. RBS themselves said it would mean neither job cuts nor

:01:48.:01:51.

move operations away or affect the day-to-day business. Lloyd's already

:01:52.:01:54.

has its physical headquarters in England. The real excitement was the

:01:55.:01:59.

concept of a political day trip to Scotland. Not normally a highlight

:02:00.:02:04.

for MPs of all stripes and types in September. Our political editor

:02:05.:02:08.

boarded the Hogwarts Express, not from platform nine and

:02:09.:02:10.

three-quarters at kings correction but at Euston. One week left and it

:02:11.:02:19.

is the flying Labour Party, the Shadow Cabinet boards the 7. 30 to

:02:20.:02:26.

Glasgow. Not the 100 MPs touted before, but a sizeable number. These

:02:27.:02:30.

Labour politicians know they need to get out the pro-union vote. Andy

:02:31.:02:36.

Burnham does Labour understand Scotland? We are Scotland, that is

:02:37.:02:39.

our roots, that is where we are from in terms of my own background in the

:02:40.:02:45.

North West. The SNP has beaten you back recently? Of course, that is

:02:46.:02:52.

our heritage, our roots it is DNA, so that's, we have been coming up

:02:53.:02:55.

and down and giving our all in this campaign. And today the Labour

:02:56.:02:59.

family comes together from all over Britain to say stay with us. Labour

:03:00.:03:04.

is in trouble from union supporters for allowing the no camp's lead in

:03:05.:03:08.

the polls to shrink. They know they are not as popular as they once

:03:09.:03:11.

were. Why no balloons on the train?

:03:12.:03:15.

Haven't we got any, I'm disappointing. We have eggs, we are

:03:16.:03:19.

anticipating getting eggs, we have a few to launch back.

:03:20.:03:22.

They are also getting flack for staying party political. Even though

:03:23.:03:27.

the Prime Minister fronted up Tory unpopularity in Scotland yesterday,

:03:28.:03:31.

those aboard the Labour locomotive still refuse to stand

:03:32.:03:35.

shoulder-to-shoulder with him. Cameron's thing about the "effing

:03:36.:03:40.

Tories" we willing returning to that.

:03:41.:03:42.

What do you mean about that? That is what a lot of people think about

:03:43.:03:49.

them. Cameron has hugged hoodies and huskies, he has never hugged anyone

:03:50.:03:54.

from north of the border, they are the opposite of "one-nation".

:03:55.:04:00.

Scotland says no! Labour's luminaries arrived into a tense

:04:01.:04:05.

Scotland. Overnight the BBC reported that the Royal Bank of Scotland

:04:06.:04:09.

would relocate its registered headquarters to London in event of

:04:10.:04:12.

the yes vote. It was confirmed by RBS this morning, but Alex Salmond

:04:13.:04:16.

was furious and he wrote to Cabinet Secretary demanding an inquiry. This

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evening this appeal was rejected. I know that the BBC will want to

:04:21.:04:24.

co-operate with the inevitable investigation by the Cabinet

:04:25.:04:28.

Secretary into the briefing of this information. Given the briefing of

:04:29.:04:33.

information, even if we weren't in a referendum campaign, even if there

:04:34.:04:38.

weren't rules that are meant to apply to Government. The leaking of

:04:39.:04:42.

market information is as serious a matter as you can possibly get. RBS

:04:43.:04:46.

said later no jobs would be lost, but other companies made similar

:04:47.:04:51.

noise, Lloyd's, Clydesdale, TSB and Tesco Bank. John Lewis, Waitrose and

:04:52.:04:56.

Asda today said prices might go up in the event of a yes vote. But the

:04:57.:05:04.

SNP believes the Westminster coalition pressured these groups to

:05:05.:05:10.

back the Better Together. Aberdeen Asset Manager said today an

:05:11.:05:14.

independent Scotland would be a success.

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Better Together think they have their act to go for three reasons,

:05:18.:05:22.

more powers to be handed over to Scotland, secondly to protect the

:05:23.:05:26.

NHS in Scotland, the third is the decision of companies to leave

:05:27.:05:30.

Scotland. Neither camp is resting on their laurels. The will of the

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people one week from today, I believe will be the to restored this

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rich ancient nation the opportunity once again to take its responsible

:05:38.:05:41.

place in the community of nations. This is it. The moment to believe.

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The moment to win. Thank you very much. Tomorrow UKIP arrived to

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campaign for the union. The SNP hit Scotland's seven cities and we have

:05:57.:06:01.

reached the seven-day countdown. In Dundee is coat founder and

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chairman of the Stagecoach group Sir Bryan Souter. Good evening. First of

:06:07.:06:12.

all we have heard that John Lewis partnership, including Waitrose,

:06:13.:06:22.

also Asda, following on from the Kingfisher Group have all said

:06:23.:06:25.

prices will rise if there is a yes vote. You can't say to people they

:06:26.:06:28.

won't be worse off? Well, I think you have to look at why they are

:06:29.:06:32.

coming out and saying this. They are not saying prices are going to rise,

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they are pointing out that if there is not certainty about currency

:06:37.:06:40.

union and if costs were to rise in Scotland, these costs would have to

:06:41.:06:45.

be passed on to their customers. Of course I don't see any reason why

:06:46.:06:50.

any of these things should happen. The most interesting revelation

:06:51.:06:55.

today was Robert Peston who is telling us that basically Number Ten

:06:56.:07:00.

are coraling and co-ordinating this campaign at the moment. And I just

:07:01.:07:06.

think in Scotland it is seen as more bullying for the big boys. When you

:07:07.:07:10.

have somebody who has credibility to keep hold of, like John Lewis

:07:11.:07:14.

Partnership, they wouldn't say that likely, it is hardly likely they

:07:15.:07:17.

will be bullied into something that is not the correct thing to say as a

:07:18.:07:21.

business. At the moment any way they say in way they subsidise products

:07:22.:07:24.

in Scotland by the rest of the UK operation. You don't really think

:07:25.:07:32.

that serious people would really stretch the credibility of their

:07:33.:07:34.

shareholders by saying something that is not true. They said prices

:07:35.:07:38.

might rise in the event of independence. Again I say the

:07:39.:07:40.

trouble is you cannot tell people in Scotland they won't be worse off?

:07:41.:07:46.

No. And I think the emphasis is here on what they said. They said prices

:07:47.:07:49.

"might" rise. They didn't say on what they said. They said prices

:07:50.:07:56.

might drop and they could have? No, but of course the prices could drop

:07:57.:08:01.

if the Government in Scotland creates the right environment and I

:08:02.:08:10.

look at the tax incentives that we have already suggested with

:08:11.:08:12.

corporation tax. The other incentives for companies, financial

:08:13.:08:16.

services we could reinstate the tax credit which undermined all our

:08:17.:08:19.

pension funds and attract more pension funds to locate in

:08:20.:08:24.

Edinburgh. We could introduce tax regimes for the oil companies to

:08:25.:08:27.

encourage them to do more exploration. You could do all these

:08:28.:08:31.

things, you are absolutely right, but we don't know whether or not in

:08:32.:08:34.

the event of independence all these things will happen. Instead the

:08:35.:08:37.

situation might be under independence that you have at least

:08:38.:08:41.

18 months, perhaps two years or more in which as an unstable environment,

:08:42.:08:44.

so therefore it would be most unlikely that companies would come

:08:45.:08:48.

to invest in Scotland, set up businesses without knowing what

:08:49.:08:51.

regime. You could not expect companies to do it in the dark and

:08:52.:08:57.

therefore Scotland would lose investment? I don't accept that,

:08:58.:09:02.

because I think companies look at all of the uncertainties and they

:09:03.:09:06.

have to make assessments and as I understand it people are actually

:09:07.:09:11.

more concerned about an exit from Europe than what they are about

:09:12.:09:14.

independence. I think companies have to have these conversations and they

:09:15.:09:19.

have to look at the risks for shareholders and that is fair enough

:09:20.:09:23.

that they should do THACHLT think when you read the -- when you read

:09:24.:09:28.

the statements clearly, they are reasonable statements. And during

:09:29.:09:33.

the 18-month period it would be in everyone's interest to settle the

:09:34.:09:36.

currency union issue quickly, that is the main issue people are

:09:37.:09:39.

unsettled about. In that case, Bryan Souter, can you tell me the name of

:09:40.:09:46.

a single company who now, with the uncertainty is saying in the event

:09:47.:09:51.

of an independent country they would move to Scotland for the first time.

:09:52.:09:54.

The problem is there are no companies saying that? We found that

:09:55.:09:59.

most of our growth comes from small and medium-sized companies, that is

:10:00.:10:03.

where most of the support for independence comes from. We have had

:10:04.:10:06.

a very good record in Scotland over the last few years of attracting

:10:07.:10:09.

inward investment. In the last few months there has been no sign of

:10:10.:10:14.

that tailing off. I don't have access to the exact numbers in this,

:10:15.:10:18.

but the Scottish Government have the numbers on this, and I have heard

:10:19.:10:23.

that quoted recently. There is no sign at the moment. If there is a

:10:24.:10:26.

period of 18-months negotiation, I think the biggest issue that comes

:10:27.:10:30.

out of that is this issue about the currency. And the reason why

:10:31.:10:34.

sterling is so unsettled at the moment is because the unionist

:10:35.:10:37.

position is creating a situation where international investors are

:10:38.:10:47.

very concerned that the oil and gas and whiskey exports would drop from

:10:48.:10:50.

the balance of payments. There is nothing to do about that uncertainty

:10:51.:10:54.

because you are in a position to deliver anything, it would be a

:10:55.:10:57.

process of negotiation. Where there is some certainty is both RBS and

:10:58.:11:02.

Lloyd's have said their legal headquarters and Lloyd's is already,

:11:03.:11:05.

would be in England. Therefore people know the share price has gone

:11:06.:11:08.

up on the basis of that today because people know where they

:11:09.:11:12.

stand, and they know deposits legally in England would be

:11:13.:11:15.

guaranteed. That is a certainty you can't offer? Once the negotiations

:11:16.:11:29.

are through we can offer that certainty. But the union also has

:11:30.:11:32.

great deal of uncertainty for people. We have no idea whether the

:11:33.:11:36.

Barnet formula will continue, we have no idea whether we will be in

:11:37.:11:40.

Europe with an in-out referendum. These uncertainties have to be

:11:41.:11:44.

balanced up, and actually I believe that during that negotiation period,

:11:45.:11:48.

if we get the yes vote, and we get the mandate that we need, we could

:11:49.:11:51.

settle most of these issues very, very quickly and it would be in

:11:52.:11:57.

everyone's interest to do so. It affects both Scotland and the UK. It

:11:58.:12:01.

would also perhaps be in your interest because you run one of the

:12:02.:12:05.

United Kingdom's largest transport groups for bus travel particularly.

:12:06.:12:11.

A lot of your employees and business is in England. David Cameron was

:12:12.:12:15.

very misty-eyed at the thought of losing Scotland, surely you have a

:12:16.:12:18.

huge loyalty and affection for your business in England. It wouldn't

:12:19.:12:24.

feel the same, would it? Well, I have enormous affection for any

:12:25.:12:28.

country where I'm making a good living, and I'm invested in many

:12:29.:12:32.

different countries. Of course we're not going to be separated at all,

:12:33.:12:37.

we're going to be as in the European Union, most of the customers of the

:12:38.:12:41.

companies in Holland are in other parts of the European Union. So this

:12:42.:12:46.

really is not really an argument in my view. Most of our customers are

:12:47.:12:50.

in other countries, we are a very small country any way and we have

:12:51.:12:54.

got customers in America, and just be clear that I'm on this programme

:12:55.:13:01.

in my role as Souter Investments Chairman, not the Chairman of

:13:02.:13:04.

Stagecoach, but I make the point that most of the companies in

:13:05.:13:08.

Scotland and internationally have wide bases of customers. I don't

:13:09.:13:11.

think these arguments really make much difference. In the past few

:13:12.:13:14.

minutes a new poll has been published and our chief

:13:15.:13:17.

correspondent is in Edinburgh tonight with the news. What is the

:13:18.:13:23.

poll saying? Of course you can't judge this whole complicated

:13:24.:13:25.

volatile situation based on one poll, but there is new significant

:13:26.:13:30.

numbers tonight. In part because the YouGov poll out tonight, which puts

:13:31.:13:36.

"no" back ahead at 52% to 48 from the yes campaign has been conducted

:13:37.:13:40.

by the same company that at the weekend produced the same poll that

:13:41.:13:44.

stunned Westminster into action by putting yes in the lead for the

:13:45.:13:48.

first time. There are a couple of interesting things happening

:13:49.:13:51.

underneath the top layer. The female votes, which the yes campaign still

:13:52.:13:57.

has to persuade, in fact support for their arguments appears to be on the

:13:58.:14:02.

slide. And secondly, the number of undecided voters appears to have

:14:03.:14:06.

gone down to just 4%, really on the way down. Now, for Better Together,

:14:07.:14:11.

perhaps for them this will feel that their economic arguments about risks

:14:12.:14:15.

that they suggest appear to be finding more and more resonance. Of

:14:16.:14:19.

course that has been echoed by the interventions of company bosses in

:14:20.:14:23.

the last couple of days. At the same time though it has emerged that some

:14:24.:14:26.

of those bosses met David Cameron in the last 24 hours to discuss this

:14:27.:14:31.

issue. And for the nationalist side, well that gives fuel to the argument

:14:32.:14:34.

that Westminster is pulling the strings. By the same token two of

:14:35.:14:38.

the chief executives who have spoken out in the last couple of days have

:14:39.:14:44.

expressed to me in the last year exactly that view but privately. It

:14:45.:14:48.

is only now with seven days they are now willing to go public. As we said

:14:49.:14:53.

the cavalry rode to Scotland on the rails, but the general is already in

:14:54.:14:59.

the country. You spoke to him today? Everywhere you go now, everyone you

:15:00.:15:04.

speak to, this is intense, it is very, very fluid and things have

:15:05.:15:09.

been difficult for both campaign, apart from anything else it has been

:15:10.:15:15.

going on for two years. But a hardened political campaigner said

:15:16.:15:18.

this was like nothing they had seen before, it feels like a war. For the

:15:19.:15:22.

man who has been leading the campaign for better by-election the

:15:23.:15:24.

former Chancellor, Alistair Darling, it has been long, it has been tense

:15:25.:15:32.

and time is running out. There are seven days to go now, the

:15:33.:15:36.

advantage was yours for more than two years, it appears to have been

:15:37.:15:39.

squadered, how did you allow that to happen? I always said the polls

:15:40.:15:43.

would narrow, a year or two people said it was a foregone conclusion, I

:15:44.:15:47.

said no it won't be. The reason for that is this decision is so

:15:48.:15:52.

momentous for Scotland. If we decide to leave the UK it is not like a

:15:53.:15:55.

general election where you can kick the Government of the day out or

:15:56.:15:58.

kick them in the teeth if that is what you want to do. If we decide to

:15:59.:16:01.

leave it is forever. There is no going back. It is not surprising

:16:02.:16:05.

given the magnitude of that decision that you are getting people, even at

:16:06.:16:09.

this stage of the week to go who are still agonising between the

:16:10.:16:12.

arguments of the heart and head. But I think we will win. I'm confident

:16:13.:16:16.

we will win. But your former colleague, Gordon Brown, clearly

:16:17.:16:19.

felt that the situation was so perilous for your side of the

:16:20.:16:23.

argument that he had no choice but to step in. Almost unilaterally it

:16:24.:16:27.

seems? Gordon has been speaking for us for over a year now. But in

:16:28.:16:33.

relation to the more powers for the Scottish Parliament which the party

:16:34.:16:36.

has set out their actual proposals some time ago, I have been asking on

:16:37.:16:40.

numerous occasions how do you bring things together to make sure you

:16:41.:16:43.

have a precise single set of proposals, what is the timetable,

:16:44.:16:47.

and yet we have announced that. What I would say to you is this, for most

:16:48.:16:51.

people in Scotland and if you look at the poll published today, what

:16:52.:16:55.

they are more interested in is what would this mean, rather than the

:16:56.:16:59.

process. In terms of the campaign, the lead was yours to hold on to,

:17:00.:17:04.

and it was slipping away, and your former colleague, Gordon Brown,

:17:05.:17:08.

clearly felt he had no choice but to step in, even David Cameron and the

:17:09.:17:12.

Westminster leaders feel they have had to step in? Both Both Gordon

:17:13.:17:16.

Brown and the leaders of the parties have been campaigning for several

:17:17.:17:20.

months now actually. It doesn't look like it to many people, these

:17:21.:17:24.

interventions in the last ten days of the campaign, doesn't it look

:17:25.:17:30.

rather desperate and panicked? In any election campaign and

:17:31.:17:33.

referendums are pretty rare, it is not surprising that activity gets

:17:34.:17:38.

ramped up as you get towards the actual polling day. I know from you

:17:39.:17:43.

know meeting people, being out on the streets the level of interest in

:17:44.:17:47.

Scotland and in this campaign is immense. The tension, the arguments

:17:48.:17:51.

I have never seen anything like it in the last 30 years. Do you see the

:17:52.:17:56.

strategy in the last few days from David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Ed

:17:57.:17:59.

Miliband as having been patronising? No I don't. I think there is nothing

:18:00.:18:04.

wrong with people outside the UK expressing their views. Come on, the

:18:05.:18:08.

other side have got American actors, or actors living in America

:18:09.:18:13.

expressing their views. There is nothing wrong with people not living

:18:14.:18:17.

in Scotland expressing a view. The most important thing to remember is

:18:18.:18:21.

those in Scotland have the vote. And people are focussing on what this

:18:22.:18:24.

means to them rather than on particular politician Is think. But

:18:25.:18:29.

many voters we have spoken to have felt it is patronising for people to

:18:30.:18:33.

jump on a plane from London and come up at the very last minute. Is it a

:18:34.:18:38.

problem you don't see that? You will find people, especially people who

:18:39.:18:41.

take the opposite view to me, nationalist who will say that, you

:18:42.:18:45.

will also find if they hadn't come up the same nationalists would have

:18:46.:18:48.

said actually isn't it terrible they are not coming up. Frankly though, I

:18:49.:18:52.

think most people in Scotland will look at that sort of political

:18:53.:18:56.

squabbling and say, come on, it is more important than that. But you

:18:57.:19:01.

have staked this campaign on economic potential, potential

:19:02.:19:06.

economic risks, was it wrong to gamble that voters wouldn't believe

:19:07.:19:09.

Alex Salmond on the economy. Because clearly people do believe him, and

:19:10.:19:14.

frankly some people have had enough of the economic arguments against

:19:15.:19:20.

that you put forward? My argument has been based, yes on the brass

:19:21.:19:25.

tacks, if you like. And that matters because it matters our ability to

:19:26.:19:29.

generate jobs, to generate employment, wealth, to pay for the

:19:30.:19:33.

health service. It is also an emotional argument as well. In the

:19:34.:19:38.

last few days you have seen Alex Salmond, you know, it is really

:19:39.:19:42.

unpleasant stuff that some how he represents Scotland and the rest of

:19:43.:19:45.

us and those of us who oppose him, some how we are not entitled to have

:19:46.:19:50.

our say. I'm proud to be Scottish, I'm also proud to be British as

:19:51.:19:53.

well. I don't see why he should force me to choose between the two.

:19:54.:19:57.

The emotional argument is just as strong as the economic argument, but

:19:58.:20:01.

bread and butter, brass tacks, they matter to people as well. But that

:20:02.:20:04.

is not the perception that many voters have had, and that suggests,

:20:05.:20:09.

surely, that there have been mistakes in this campaign, and what

:20:10.:20:12.

has come across is the issue of what is on the balance sheet not what is

:20:13.:20:17.

in people's guts? If you take a decision to live with someone or get

:20:18.:20:24.

married or where you live, if you had done the sums on the emotional

:20:25.:20:27.

side you wouldn't do that, no thanks to that. What we have heard time and

:20:28.:20:33.

again in the last few days is people want something different, they want

:20:34.:20:35.

something else, and many voters in Scotland have come to see the yes

:20:36.:20:40.

campaign as the one who is hold out the offer of a fairer country of

:20:41.:20:49.

social justice. Labour, traditionally started in this

:20:50.:20:53.

country, and began that argument? The SNP Government in Edinburgh has

:20:54.:20:58.

cut 130,000 college place, 90,000 of them would have gone to young women,

:20:59.:21:02.

most of these people going to the college, young students come from

:21:03.:21:05.

backgrounds where they don't have the qualification, they need the

:21:06.:21:09.

skills to get on. They have taken a billion pounds out of their

:21:10.:21:13.

antipoverty programme, don't tell me that is progressive socialism or

:21:14.:21:16.

anything like it. It is a completely different thing. There are

:21:17.:21:21.

significant swathes of voters in Scotland who believe the other side

:21:22.:21:25.

offers more social justice. They are beating you at your own game? But

:21:26.:21:28.

they are not. And again if you look at what they do, rather than what

:21:29.:21:34.

they say, the picture is rather different. There is a lot of Labour

:21:35.:21:39.

voters who are looking and asking themselves what is best, most every

:21:40.:21:43.

type of voter won't change, but I think we can deliver change within

:21:44.:21:48.

months. You say there could be change within months, why did it

:21:49.:21:53.

take so long for your side to offer a timetable for extra powers for

:21:54.:21:58.

Scotland? Look, we have offered a timetable, and frankly, most people

:21:59.:22:02.

are less concerned about process and all that, but rather... This calm

:22:03.:22:06.

mains been going for two years, more than that, and it wasn't until ten

:22:07.:22:10.

days before the vote, suddenly there is a timetable? There is a timetable

:22:11.:22:17.

that shows how we can implement the legislation to strengthen the

:22:18.:22:20.

Scottish Parliament. We are now seven days before polling day and I

:22:21.:22:24.

don't know what money we will be using, what currency we will be

:22:25.:22:28.

using, I don't know who will pay pensions in Scotland. I don't know

:22:29.:22:31.

how well fare will work. Would it have been better if this timetable

:22:32.:22:35.

for extra powers, that change you are now promising, had been coming

:22:36.:22:40.

up much earlier in the campaign? I think actually if you look, the

:22:41.:22:47.

thing that we need to explain is the extra powers that will come, which

:22:48.:22:50.

we have been doing, and the timetable actually has helped us do

:22:51.:22:55.

that. Regardless what happens, do you believe that we are heading for

:22:56.:22:59.

some kind of constitutional crisis, or breakdown? If Scotland votes to

:23:00.:23:04.

go next week that's it. There is no question it will become independent.

:23:05.:23:07.

There is no question of it, there is no second chance if you like. And of

:23:08.:23:12.

course that will have profound implications for the rest of the UK

:23:13.:23:17.

as well. If the vote is no, ought England to get the extra powers

:23:18.:23:21.

Scotland will get? There is a big issue in England if you look at

:23:22.:23:27.

particularly cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, they

:23:28.:23:31.

in my view need more powers to try to shift some of the economic

:23:32.:23:34.

balance to the northern part of England way from the south-east. You

:23:35.:23:37.

do believe then that other parts of the UK should get the same kind of

:23:38.:23:42.

extra powers too? Well, look up to a point in the sense that the law in

:23:43.:23:46.

Scotland is different. The education system is different, and you know

:23:47.:23:50.

health has always been organised differently, that is not the case in

:23:51.:23:54.

different parts of England. Next Friday morning f yes win, would you

:23:55.:23:58.

be willing to be part of Alex Salmond's negotiating team? He keeps

:23:59.:24:01.

going on about this, Alex Salmond and team work, come on. But would

:24:02.:24:07.

you be willing to do it? I'm Scottish, I'm staying here, I'm

:24:08.:24:11.

democrat, I will abide by the result. But, you know, if you look

:24:12.:24:17.

at his prospectus, some of the stuff he's arguing in the White Paper,

:24:18.:24:21.

some of it just doesn't stack up. You must have considered how would

:24:22.:24:24.

you feel about living in an independent Scotland with Alex

:24:25.:24:27.

Salmond as the leader of the country? You know if Scotland became

:24:28.:24:33.

independent presumably we would have elections like everybody else and

:24:34.:24:36.

decide which party was going to do that. What I'm more worried about

:24:37.:24:40.

now in a way I wasn't six months ago is how to bring together the

:24:41.:24:42.

divisions in Scotland at the moment. When I hear Alex Salmond saying

:24:43.:24:48.

yesterday, he was going on about Team Scotland, what he's saying in

:24:49.:24:53.

an undertone that those of you not with me are doing something wrong.

:24:54.:24:56.

That is offensive stuff. Both sides of the argument hold passionate

:24:57.:25:01.

views on the country, all of us are as Scottish as it is desperately

:25:02.:25:07.

keen to sort out our country. I have not seen tensions like this in 30

:25:08.:25:12.

years of campaigning. When I find people who are frightened to speak

:25:13.:25:16.

out and put posters up, we don't want to live in a country like that.

:25:17.:25:20.

On the 19th there is a lot of healing to be done. This has been

:25:21.:25:24.

fierce and deeply personal, probably for every single Scott. But what

:25:25.:25:30.

kind of toll has it taken on you? I volunteered to do this. Are you

:25:31.:25:37.

still glad you did? Yes, I am. I would never have forgiven myself to

:25:38.:25:40.

sit on the sidelines and hope somebody else would do it. This is

:25:41.:25:43.

an argument we need to settle in Scotland, and we will in just over

:25:44.:25:49.

six days time. Oscar Pistorius has been cleared of the murder of his

:25:50.:25:53.

girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, however, he still faces the

:25:54.:25:58.

possibility of a number of years in prison for cupable homicide, the

:25:59.:26:01.

South African equivalent of manslaughter, with a maximum 15-year

:26:02.:26:05.

sentence on the table. The trial has been noted for black woman judging a

:26:06.:26:08.

white man without a jury, in front of the glare of the entire South

:26:09.:26:13.

Africa nation. How much is the trial a mirror of South African society,

:26:14.:26:17.

and how far has it come since apartheid.

:26:18.:26:22.

Oscar Pistorius was a star, one of South Africa's biggest and most

:26:23.:26:26.

severed athletes. He changed the image of the Paralympics, and

:26:27.:26:32.

becamen the first amputee runner to compete in an Olympic Games. I train

:26:33.:26:36.

harder than any of the other guys do, I put in more hours, I eat

:26:37.:26:40.

better, sleep better and rest better, I'm more diligent and train

:26:41.:26:43.

better than other guys. The image was completed with his glamorous

:26:44.:26:47.

model girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. But on Valentine's Day last year he

:26:48.:26:51.

killed her, firing four shots through a bathroom door at his home

:26:52.:26:57.

in Pretoria. There is no way you can convince a court that she stood

:26:58.:27:01.

there saying nothing, why, why would she not say a thing? Oscar Pistorius

:27:02.:27:06.

has always maintained he thought there was an intruder. It was the

:27:07.:27:09.

first trial to be televised in South Africa, and was watched around the

:27:10.:27:13.

world. Casting a spotlight on the country's justice system. Where one

:27:14.:27:18.

judge and no jury presided in court. A legacy of apartheid. It has been a

:27:19.:27:24.

trial with drama, as a darker side to Pistorius came out, including his

:27:25.:27:33.

liking for guns. Screams of delight, but listen to the voice of man who

:27:34.:27:38.

sounds very much like Oscar Pistorius.

:27:39.:27:44.

The prosecution said it was premeditated murder, a charge which

:27:45.:27:55.

the judge rejected. It follows that the accused's erroneous belief that

:27:56.:28:02.

his life was in danger, the accused cannot be found guilty of murder.

:28:03.:28:07.

That, however, is not the end of the matter. As culpable homicide is a

:28:08.:28:15.

competent verdict. But she still suggested he was guilty of

:28:16.:28:18.

negligence, and that is an accusation which tomorrow could

:28:19.:28:21.

still see Oscar Pistorius end his career in jail. With me in the

:28:22.:28:28.

studio to discuss all this is The Orange Prize nominated South

:28:29.:28:35.

African-born author, Gillian Slovo, and from Johannesburg, author and

:28:36.:28:40.

broadcaster, Eric Miyeni. What did you make of this part of the

:28:41.:28:44.

verdict, not guilty of murder, do you think he benefitted from a lack

:28:45.:28:47.

of a jury? I don't think it is a lack of a jury, I think it is a very

:28:48.:28:52.

difficult thing to prove what is in a man's mind. He's the only living

:28:53.:28:57.

witness to tell you what's there, how do you prove that what he's

:28:58.:29:01.

saying and in his mind is wrong. I don't think it has anything to do

:29:02.:29:04.

with the jury. It was a very difficult thing for the state to

:29:05.:29:08.

prove. Tell me, Gillian Slovo, what does this say about South Africa,

:29:09.:29:16.

how does it play out in South Africa the idea that there was somebody

:29:17.:29:19.

else in the room and chances are Oscar Pistorius thought it was black

:29:20.:29:23.

man invading his house? I think it is an extraordinary thought for him.

:29:24.:29:26.

Afterall Oscar Pistorius lived in a port trees. -- for -- fortress. He

:29:27.:29:40.

had security guards, that fear is not founded on reality, but on a

:29:41.:29:47.

fear, I think, of the privileged that there will be the mass of the

:29:48.:29:51.

impoverished to come and try to get their money and actually come and

:29:52.:29:56.

get their guns. Do you think that this speaks to a chasam between

:29:57.:30:02.

black and white in South Africa? I'm not even sure it is between black

:30:03.:30:07.

and white, it is a chasam of class. It is about the fact that there are

:30:08.:30:12.

a small number of very rich and entitled people in that country.

:30:13.:30:15.

Many of them are white, but increasingly more of them are black

:30:16.:30:22.

and a huge bulk of impoverished people. Eric what do you think of

:30:23.:30:31.

that? I do not think the way it has gone proves any chasam in the

:30:32.:30:35.

society, it proves no matter how privileged, no matter how famous, if

:30:36.:30:38.

you do something wrong you will be held to account. And secondly I

:30:39.:30:42.

think we should correct this. Oscar never, ever said there was a black

:30:43.:30:46.

intruder, not once did he say that, not once was it mentioned in court.

:30:47.:30:50.

He said he thought there was an intruder, and everybody else who

:30:51.:30:55.

says black is putting that into the picture, Oscar didn't. Yeah, Oscar

:30:56.:31:02.

never said it was a black intruder, but I think the assumption that it

:31:03.:31:08.

would be black intruder is a valid one to make. In the past during the

:31:09.:31:13.

years of party there was something they called the "black peril". I

:31:14.:31:17.

think that still runs in the consciousness of people in that

:31:18.:31:21.

country. That there is something very scary and something out to get

:31:22.:31:26.

them. And certainly Oscar Pistorius talked about how in his childhood

:31:27.:31:31.

this was something he and his mother often did discuss. Eric? Yeah, but I

:31:32.:31:39.

think we should take Judge Masipa's lead, it is important to do that. We

:31:40.:31:45.

can't put words in someone's mouth. The fact people used prejudice to

:31:46.:31:48.

assume things is incorrect, that is not how to run a justice system

:31:49.:31:52.

either. If we use these volatile terms that were not mentioned at

:31:53.:31:56.

all, we would not get justice. This judge would havered in erred in what

:31:57.:32:05.

she was doing and we should do the same. It is interesting to see after

:32:06.:32:11.

all these years after apartheid that Judge Masipa is one of two female

:32:12.:32:16.

judge, this is progress, and the racist assumption is she would have

:32:17.:32:20.

been tough on Oscar Pistorius, where as she took her legal training very

:32:21.:32:25.

seriously indeed, and delivered a very long verdict on part of it.

:32:26.:32:30.

What will be the impact if he's found guilty of culpable homicide?

:32:31.:32:36.

It will be an incredible impact. I mean either way as a nation we will

:32:37.:32:41.

have to look at everything she says to justify her judgment, whether we

:32:42.:32:44.

agree with it or not, we will have to stay with the facts. Right now I

:32:45.:32:49.

think she's incredibly correct in saying that the state just couldn't,

:32:50.:32:52.

it is almost an impossible thing to prove that this is what the man

:32:53.:32:57.

intended when he's the only witness. Whatever she comes up with, all we

:32:58.:33:00.

are left with is how she gets to the conclusion. And so far I think she's

:33:01.:33:06.

doing an incredible job. And precisely because everyone is

:33:07.:33:11.

pudding the raciadivide -- putting the racial divide and she's a black

:33:12.:33:16.

woman and she should do this and the fact that she is not is an

:33:17.:33:20.

incredible sign of our justice system. It is a sign of the justice

:33:21.:33:26.

system working, the South African justice system doesn't always work

:33:27.:33:30.

like this, but she is taking it incredibly serious. It is the first

:33:31.:33:34.

televised trial with an affect on everyone. One place there is a

:33:35.:33:38.

divide is relations between men and women in South African, the Women's

:33:39.:33:43.

League was there as well. There is a real worry about sexism in South

:33:44.:33:46.

Africa? Not only sexism but violence against women. That was never

:33:47.:33:50.

proved? The situation has improved in South Africa in the sense that

:33:51.:33:55.

since 2009 less women are getting killed by their partners. I think it

:33:56.:34:02.

is now rate of one every eight hours rather than 2009 when it was one

:34:03.:34:06.

every six hours. There is a real problem within South Africa, not

:34:07.:34:10.

only about violence in general, but yes, violence again women. Thank you

:34:11.:34:14.

very much indeed. If we are now clear that President

:34:15.:34:19.

Obama will begin open-ended air strikes against IS in Syria, the

:34:20.:34:23.

British Government sent confusing signals over British involvement.

:34:24.:34:27.

First Alex Hammond insisted Britain would not take part in any air

:34:28.:34:32.

strike, only to be corrected by Downing Street which said in terms

:34:33.:34:34.

of air power the Prime Minister has not ruled anything out. For one

:34:35.:34:45.

former US Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, the US President's moment

:34:46.:34:49.

of clarity has not come too soon. He had accused the US of being

:34:50.:34:55.

bystanders and encouraged an all-out attack on IS. In his book, World

:34:56.:35:02.

Order has just come out. President Obama has said he wants to

:35:03.:35:06.

destroy the Islamic State and there will be US air strikes against them

:35:07.:35:11.

in Syria, can he achieve his goal? We should be very careful in stating

:35:12.:35:19.

objectives that are related to what the American political process will

:35:20.:35:26.

support. In this case we are dealing with 20,000 fanatics that started

:35:27.:35:34.

Anwar offshoot of Al Qaeda. I think it is an objective that can be

:35:35.:35:38.

reached and defined in that manner. I do not believe that will bring

:35:39.:35:43.

piece to the Middle East. It means that the challenges will change and

:35:44.:35:47.

that's important for America to understand.

:35:48.:35:54.

You have always been an advocate of realisim in foreign policy rather

:35:55.:36:02.

than idealism. This is a standard argument, I believe that you have to

:36:03.:36:12.

begin argument, I believe that you have to begin I think you have to

:36:13.:36:15.

begin with a realistic assessment of the forces at work, they include

:36:16.:36:20.

values and ideals. So in that sense you are a realist, should the US be

:36:21.:36:27.

co-operating with President Assad in Syria, the sworn enemy of a year ago

:36:28.:36:31.

in order to combat the Islamic State? I think we should settle our

:36:32.:36:39.

disagreement with Assad aside for the moment. Not co-operate with him

:36:40.:36:53.

in any formal way. But then when we succeed in destroying ISIS we could

:36:54.:36:59.

then reconsider our views of our relationship with Assad, or we could

:37:00.:37:04.

address the situation, which I think is more important, even more

:37:05.:37:11.

important, what kind of structure should emerge there. Because the

:37:12.:37:20.

notion that Syria is a coherent state is a figment of the 1920s. And

:37:21.:37:28.

so that it would have to be reconstructed in some fashion. It is

:37:29.:37:32.

in that context that we should then look at the Assad question again.

:37:33.:37:36.

You say the US failed in Iraq because it was trying to implement

:37:37.:37:40.

American values in the part of a world where there were no historical

:37:41.:37:44.

roots. Is the US doom today fail again as it tries to take on the

:37:45.:37:49.

Islamic state in Iraq and Syria? We have to understand that it is not in

:37:50.:37:56.

our capability to bring about western-style democracy in these

:37:57.:38:03.

societies in the process of a military conflict. And it is

:38:04.:38:12.

probably not sustainable in American domestic opinion to engage in such

:38:13.:38:17.

an enterprise. When you look at the chaos in Iraq today, do you regret

:38:18.:38:20.

your support for the US-led invasion? If I had known then what I

:38:21.:38:30.

know now, and if I had been as aware of the schisms between the Shia and

:38:31.:38:38.

the Sunni, as I was not then, as most briefings suggested was not

:38:39.:38:45.

relevant to the Iraqi case. Had I known all of this I would not

:38:46.:38:59.

recommend it today. This is what I think today. In your book you argue

:39:00.:39:03.

that because the world is so volatile it is more important than

:39:04.:39:10.

ever for America to remain engaged. Is Barack Obama as engaged as he

:39:11.:39:15.

should be? There are two levels of engagment, there are things you

:39:16.:39:20.

proclaim you will do and the commitment you indicate behind the

:39:21.:39:32.

things that you will do. And it seems to me that the first part of

:39:33.:39:37.

that has been met more fully than the second part. Meaning? Meaning

:39:38.:39:46.

that the personal belief in what is being done and the ability to

:39:47.:39:58.

inspire your people to go on an as yet unchartered road, that part of

:39:59.:40:05.

needs another speed. You talk about the breakdown of legit my macy and

:40:06.:40:09.

trust in Government. Could that theory explain the rise in support

:40:10.:40:19.

for Scottish independence? Yes. A lot of faith in established

:40:20.:40:24.

institutions. If Scotland voted for independence would the United

:40:25.:40:27.

Kingdom without Scotland be diminished as a world power? That

:40:28.:40:32.

would depend in part on how it conducts itself. I don't think

:40:33.:40:38.

necessarily. Because not everybody will fully understand what has

:40:39.:40:42.

happened. And then for some it might still be thought of as the United

:40:43.:40:47.

Kingdom. For you who has, in your academic life, seen the nation state

:40:48.:41:02.

and the peace fail. Would it sadden you to see an independent Scotland?

:41:03.:41:10.

It wouldn't sadden me. But if it happens, America can live it with

:41:11.:41:18.

it, Britain will find way to get through it but it will be an

:41:19.:41:32.

emotional drama for Britain. It must have some impact. Thank you very

:41:33.:41:41.

much for joining us. A little earlier I spoke to Bouthaina

:41:42.:41:46.

Shaaban, political and media adviser for President Assad from Damascus.

:41:47.:41:49.

President Obama says there will be air strikes in Syria against IS, do

:41:50.:41:58.

you welcome that? I think what President Obama said is quite

:41:59.:42:06.

confusing because the Security Council resolution 217 spoke about

:42:07.:42:13.

fighting terrorism, and they spoke about the world community standing

:42:14.:42:21.

against terrorism, while the speech of President Obama dropped the

:42:22.:42:26.

co-ordination with Russia and China, invented some opposition that he

:42:27.:42:32.

wanted to support. I think it has many problems what President Obama

:42:33.:42:39.

has announced and I think the west again is making mistakes in our

:42:40.:42:45.

region. They should we view their strategy before taking any action in

:42:46.:42:52.

that region if they truly want to stop terrorism. We know there are

:42:53.:42:55.

ten Arab states rallying to the United States, surely that is your

:42:56.:43:02.

best chance of defeating IS? Terrorism did not start with I SFOR

:43:03.:43:06.

a start. In Syria we have been facing the same kind of terrorism

:43:07.:43:12.

for the last four years. The same kind of killing, slaughtering, you

:43:13.:43:17.

know displacing Christians and other people, and therefore I think what

:43:18.:43:22.

President Obama is talking about is not going to solve any problem

:43:23.:43:29.

anywhere because's not taking the right decision now. If he is going

:43:30.:43:35.

to stand by what he said today. What he said today needs a lot of

:43:36.:43:38.

clarification. Let's clarify something now. If President Obama

:43:39.:43:50.

mounts air strikes near Raqa, will Syria attack American airplanes? Our

:43:51.:43:56.

Foreign Minister has announced if there is an inter-National Coalition

:43:57.:43:59.

against terrorism, Syria will be ready to be part of it. We have been

:44:00.:44:05.

fighting terrorism for the last 30 years, but certainly nobody will be

:44:06.:44:10.

able to fight terrorism on our land without our co-ordination and

:44:11.:44:12.

without our role in fighting terrorism. If President Obama

:44:13.:44:19.

launches air strikes backed by ten Arab states in Syria, will there be

:44:20.:44:25.

a counter-attack by Syria, or will you see it as President Obama doing

:44:26.:44:29.

your job for you and combatting IS? You see now I think there is a lot

:44:30.:44:33.

of talk that is going on, I think Russia and China are not accepting

:44:34.:44:38.

what President Obama is saying. He is not abiding by Security Council

:44:39.:44:43.

resolution, even though the statement he did today, speaking

:44:44.:44:49.

about hunting terrorists is easier said than done, speaking about not

:44:50.:44:54.

allowing Christians and minorities to be removed from their original

:44:55.:44:59.

land. I would like to tell you... What does President Assad want, what

:45:00.:45:03.

are you doing to combat IS? What are you doing to take on IS? We have

:45:04.:45:11.

been fighting terrorism, IS and other kinds of terrorism, there are

:45:12.:45:15.

over 1,000 branches of terrorism here, for the last four years. They

:45:16.:45:19.

have been slaughtering our people, they have been killing our army, the

:45:20.:45:25.

west unfortunately only noticed when a western person was slaughtered and

:45:26.:45:30.

we condemn killing anybody, but our people have been killed for the last

:45:31.:45:35.

four years, and nobody even condemned the killing of our people

:45:36.:45:40.

and the people of our army. If President Obama strikes near Raqa,

:45:41.:45:45.

not all over Syria, but in the east, along a line, will the Syrians

:45:46.:45:50.

welcome that help to defeat IS? Syria would welcome to be part of

:45:51.:45:55.

the discussion and the decision, because fighting terrorism is not an

:45:56.:46:00.

easy thing, and we are the people who have been facing terrorism in

:46:01.:46:04.

the region. Will you talk to President Obama? I said to President

:46:05.:46:14.

Obama that he should truly get the opinion and the help of all people

:46:15.:46:20.

in the region, not only the countries who have been very handy

:46:21.:46:25.

in helping terrorists, who have been financing terrorism. Raqa is an

:46:26.:46:31.

ungoverned space and the American commandos went in to try to get

:46:32.:46:35.

James Foley, there is a British hostage among other hostages, surely

:46:36.:46:40.

we must make every effort in that area to combat IS? You know why the

:46:41.:46:45.

west now suddenly started to talk only about IS, talk about terrorism,

:46:46.:46:51.

what did they do since 9/11, since 2001, what are the achievements in

:46:52.:46:57.

Pakistan, in upper Afghanistan and in Libya. They have to believe that

:46:58.:47:04.

they have to listen to consult with people who have been truly victims

:47:05.:47:10.

of terrorism, not to meet with countries who have been financing

:47:11.:47:14.

arming and facilitating terrorism. But the problem is that President

:47:15.:47:18.

Assad is not in control of the whole of his country. President Assad is

:47:19.:47:24.

not control of the situation, therefore it is impossible for those

:47:25.:47:28.

standing by in other countries not to do anything. Other people have to

:47:29.:47:32.

take on IS if President Assad can't do it? At least the army of Syria is

:47:33.:47:39.

fighting terrorism everywhere, and if there areas that are taken by the

:47:40.:47:43.

terrorists, it is thanks to the people who have been financing and

:47:44.:47:48.

arming and facilitating terrorism, therefore the least thing that Obama

:47:49.:47:53.

could do is stand with Syria, with the Government of Syria against

:47:54.:47:56.

terrorism and with the Government of the region who truly are against

:47:57.:48:02.

terrorism. You know that IS represents a very particular threat,

:48:03.:48:08.

this is not like the opposition that stood up to President Assad four

:48:09.:48:11.

years ago, this is quite different. You know it is a different kettle of

:48:12.:48:16.

fish and they have to be taken on separately. You know that?

:48:17.:48:22.

Unfortunately you know things that are not real. IS is like the

:48:23.:48:31.

terrorist like other organisation, I can count 100 organisations that

:48:32.:48:35.

have been slaughtering people, killing women and have been

:48:36.:48:40.

criminals all over the country. I'm not underestimating the horrid

:48:41.:48:44.

presence of IS, but I'm saying to the west you have to get real. You

:48:45.:48:48.

have to see what's happening on the ground. What President Obama is

:48:49.:48:53.

saying he's going to support and finance and arm, they are the same

:48:54.:49:01.

people like IS, they have the same ideology, extremist, terrorist

:49:02.:49:05.

ideology. Thank you very much. To survive the deadly Ebola virus is

:49:06.:49:10.

one thing, but to return to the centre of the epidemic to play a

:49:11.:49:14.

part again to control the outbreak is quite near. William Pooley, the

:49:15.:49:18.

British nurse who was the first Britain to contract the virus in

:49:19.:49:22.

Sierra Leone, was desperately ill when the RAF evacuated him from a

:49:23.:49:27.

Government base in Kenema three weeks ago. The odds of him surviving

:49:28.:49:33.

were poor, with expert demand in the Royal Free Hospital, under Stephen

:49:34.:49:39.

Mepham in a microbiology consultant who flew to Sierra Leone to

:49:40.:49:47.

accompany him home. Charities such as medicines sans front tears

:49:48.:49:49.

turning patients away, he's going back. Only worked in the hospital

:49:50.:49:54.

six weeks when he became infected, he believes he has work to do in

:49:55.:49:58.

Sierra Leone. It is good to see you looking well. You went to work in

:49:59.:50:01.

that hospital, you were already working for a charity in the area.

:50:02.:50:04.

Then you went to hospital because of Ebola, did you know what you were

:50:05.:50:13.

facing? Not before I went. After a few weeks there it became apparent

:50:14.:50:19.

that people were, nursing were getting infected, there were

:50:20.:50:24.

certainly a risky place to work that did become apparent after a few

:50:25.:50:28.

weeks, but there was also improvement happening all the time.

:50:29.:50:32.

It felt like things were becoming safer. And indeed you lost friends

:50:33.:50:42.

you had made there? In the time I was there eight or so colleagues

:50:43.:50:47.

died that I was working with. And then when you became ill, did you

:50:48.:50:52.

realise quickly just how ill you were? It was overnight really, I

:50:53.:50:58.

started to feel sick and then the next day he was tested. I had the

:50:59.:51:06.

feeling it was going to be bad news. And the test to prove that I had

:51:07.:51:16.

Ebola, it happened very quickly. I always wondered it did you tell your

:51:17.:51:23.

parents at that point? I wanted to hold off until the evacuation was

:51:24.:51:27.

confirmed. Once all of that was put into place I was able to tell my

:51:28.:51:31.

parents. It must have been extraordinary, but you understand

:51:32.:51:36.

infectious diseases and you work with them, to be in the isolation

:51:37.:51:41.

tent and to be treated at the Royal Free, what did you make of it, it

:51:42.:51:48.

must have been extraordinary? It was extraordinary, and the contrast

:51:49.:51:51.

between the care that I was providing in Sierra Leone with the

:51:52.:51:56.

care that I received, I was outnumbered by healthcare work

:51:57.:52:00.

erstwhile the patients were outnumbing me. A Third World disease

:52:01.:52:05.

treated in a first world country, as compared what happens in the third

:52:06.:52:08.

world company? That changes outcomes, I had that treatment and

:52:09.:52:12.

care. What do you think about that f this was a disease that broadly

:52:13.:52:17.

affected a white western population we would have found a vaccine

:52:18.:52:29.

quicker? Money has to be made out of these things, it was easy to ignore

:52:30.:52:36.

the problem while there were small pockets of disease in place, I don't

:52:37.:52:43.

think it can be ignored any longer. Medicines sans frontier in like

:52:44.:52:46.

beeria are saying it is out of control what -- in Liberia are

:52:47.:52:50.

saying it is out of control what are you saying about that? They said

:52:51.:52:57.

they needed an 800 bed hospital and it is getting out of control in

:52:58.:53:01.

Liberia and Sierra Leone as well, you can see the rate of new

:53:02.:53:09.

infections going up exponentially. And that means more deaths? We are

:53:10.:53:15.

moving away from the time when we can contain this towards a point

:53:16.:53:19.

where it is a lost cause. What do you want David Cameron to do? I

:53:20.:53:29.

would love to see him take global leadership on this and dedicate a

:53:30.:53:34.

good amount of resources for establishing treatment centres and a

:53:35.:53:40.

number of treatment services for Sierra Leone and Liberia, where they

:53:41.:53:44.

can give decent care for international staff, well resourced,

:53:45.:53:49.

they will be safe for staff to work in. And better outcomes. You have

:53:50.:53:53.

had the disease and treated, can you ever get it again, there is some

:53:54.:54:01.

dispute about this? Almost all of the evidence points towards

:54:02.:54:04.

immunity, we don't know for how long, whether it is lifelong. But it

:54:05.:54:08.

seems very likely that I would be protected against this strain of

:54:09.:54:11.

Ebola at least. How quickly are you going back? It will be a few weeks.

:54:12.:54:16.

You don't have your passport yet because it was incinerated? That is

:54:17.:54:21.

in the post. Your family are OK with you going back? They support me all

:54:22.:54:27.

the way. The front papers tomorrow:

:54:28.:54:47.

Nothing unusual about a holiday and nothing unusual about recording

:54:48.:54:56.

every single event, adventure, meal, drinking marathon, with some

:54:57.:55:00.

impressive Photoshop skills a Dutch student found she could do it all

:55:01.:55:06.

without moving a muscle. She faked a trip from her home in Amsterdam to

:55:07.:55:10.

satire the media management. The quiet settled spell of weather

:55:11.:55:58.

conditions. No sign of rain in the near future.

:55:59.:55:59.

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