12/09/2014 Newsnight


12/09/2014

With Kirsty Wark. The journey of Ian Paisley. Iran's secret war in Iraq. Boris. Scotland. Pistorius. Pumeza Matshikiza sings Puccini.


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Ian Paisley has died, went from this: We say never, never, never,

:00:07.:00:18.

never... To this, in the space of a lifetime. We will recall his

:00:19.:00:22.

eventful journey and what it meant for Northern Ireland. Meanwhile in

:00:23.:00:32.

Scotland. Just last week there was an SNP council up north to get

:00:33.:00:38.

people to wave a Union Flag. It is a potent symbol when Better Together

:00:39.:00:43.

are waving the Scottish saltire, is the Union Flag now toxic north of

:00:44.:00:50.

the border. Where does Ken Loach this it is so hard to sell

:00:51.:00:57.

Britishness. Here on the ground it is not America

:00:58.:01:02.

but Iran that is running the show. And not just three their proxys, the

:01:03.:01:09.

Shia militia. It is the last night of the Newsnight Proms.

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Good evening, Ian Paisley, DUP leader, Dr No, Presbyterian

:01:25.:01:30.

fundamentalist, and First Minister of Northern Ireland has died at the

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age of 88. For more than 50 years for good or ill he made the weather

:01:35.:01:40.

in Northern Ireland with blistering, uncompromising sermons and speeches

:01:41.:01:45.

and his belief in no surrender. He denounced the Good Friday peace

:01:46.:01:48.

accord in 1998 and said there was not a snowball's chance in hell he

:01:49.:01:52.

would work with Sinn Fein unless the IRA surrendered all weapons

:01:53.:01:55.

publicly. But when the IRA did eventually disarm and renounce

:01:56.:01:58.

violence it was a short step to the moment he sat down together with

:01:59.:02:01.

Gerry Adams. Here is our political editor.

:02:02.:02:07.

We will organise massive demonstrations... Face fit for a

:02:08.:02:12.

statue, beliefs etched in granite, and some of the most powerful lungs

:02:13.:02:17.

the world might ever have heard. He was a could loss colossas. But then

:02:18.:02:29.

he became a yes man. I wonder why people hate me, I'm just a nice man.

:02:30.:02:36.

The man himself knew he had divided a nation. Paisley became a preacher

:02:37.:02:43.

at 16 and set up the Free prise by tearian Church by 25, maturing into

:02:44.:02:49.

a well known Protestant firebrand. Paisley's support grew and

:02:50.:02:52.

membership of his support doubled when he clashed with the Catholic

:02:53.:02:57.

civil rights movement and imprisoned in 1968. Election to the Stormont

:02:58.:03:04.

and Westminster parliaments in 1970 followed, and in 1971 he created the

:03:05.:03:08.

Democratic Unionist Party, finally the famous Paisley position was

:03:09.:03:12.

crystallising. There would be no surrender, not an inch, to those

:03:13.:03:17.

crystallising. There would be no wanting Irish Government in Northern

:03:18.:03:22.

Ireland. Where do the terrorists return to for sanctuary, to the

:03:23.:03:33.

Irish Republic. And yet Mrs Thatcher tells us that Republic must have

:03:34.:03:44.

some say in our province. We say never, never, never, never.

:03:45.:03:49.

(Cheering) In the eyes of some, his denunciations of terror were

:03:50.:03:53.

undermined when he appeared to flirt with extremism himself. He always

:03:54.:04:00.

denied this. The RUC tell me that I am breaking the law because I put a

:04:01.:04:05.

red beret on my head with an Ulster badge on it, it is time we stood up

:04:06.:04:16.

and told the RUC... In 1998 the Good Friday Agreement was struck, despite

:04:17.:04:22.

opposition from Paisley, he vilified David Trimable for signing up. This

:04:23.:04:27.

paper will destroy the union. In the last two-and-a-half years I have

:04:28.:04:32.

been giving sense. After the IRA disarmed in 2007, Paisley stunned

:04:33.:04:36.

the world, he went into Government with former IRA commander, Martin

:04:37.:04:41.

McGuinness. I think his contribution to peace in Northern Ireland has

:04:42.:04:45.

been immense. I mean he was the person who ultimately took the

:04:46.:04:49.

decision, with a lot of courage to make it happen and the man who, in a

:04:50.:04:55.

sense, was the person famous for saying no, will find his place in

:04:56.:04:59.

history for having said yes. He said yes and with a chortle, he and

:05:00.:05:03.

Martin McGuinness were often seen laughing together and were known as

:05:04.:05:08.

the Chuckle Brothers. Some say an illness had focussed his mind before

:05:09.:05:11.

death. Others that the violence in Northern Ireland changed so he

:05:12.:05:15.

changed his mind. It was one of the best things that ever happened. We

:05:16.:05:22.

still face our challenge, but I will always treasure the year that he and

:05:23.:05:25.

I were in the office of First Minister and Deputy First Minister

:05:26.:05:29.

together. We were once opponents but today I have lost a friend. But some

:05:30.:05:35.

of his old adversaries don't quite see it like that. I think that

:05:36.:05:43.

whatever about the fact that people speak well about people after their

:05:44.:05:47.

death. It seems to me any assessment of Ian Paisley and his role in

:05:48.:05:50.

Northern Ireland has to be a negative one. Mr Paisley is a man

:05:51.:05:55.

who has injected booster shots of sectarian venom to the body politic

:05:56.:06:00.

in Northern Ireland, right from a period from the early to mid-60s to

:06:01.:06:06.

30 more years, in so far as he was clearing up the mess towards the end

:06:07.:06:10.

of his life. He was clearing up a mess to which some measure had been

:06:11.:06:15.

of his own making. Paisley makes the most bellicose defend of the union,

:06:16.:06:19.

passed away in a week where the union faces its most serious

:06:20.:06:25.

challenge. There is uncertainty, our passionate pro-union sentiments are

:06:26.:06:28.

they dying away too? Observers say Ian Paisley began life wanting to

:06:29.:06:32.

lead a church, a political party and become Prime Minister. He was

:06:33.:06:39.

ambitious and he got there. But many wish the no-man who eventually said

:06:40.:06:44.

yes, had said "maybe" a little earlier in his life.

:06:45.:06:50.

We will hear more about that later in the programme.

:06:51.:06:54.

Earlier this evening I spoke to the deputy leader of the DUP party,

:06:55.:07:00.

Nigel Dodds, I asked him whether anyone else could have got the two

:07:01.:07:03.

sides together? It is very difficult to conceive of anybody else being

:07:04.:07:06.

able to deliver what he did deliver in the end, which was a Sinn Fein

:07:07.:07:13.

which had decommissioned its weaponry of the IRA, which had

:07:14.:07:16.

committed to full support of the police, the courts and the rule of

:07:17.:07:21.

law. You say in the end, he repeatedly said never surrender, no

:07:22.:07:25.

surrender, not to Sunningdale, not to the Anglo-Irish Agreement or the

:07:26.:07:31.

Good Friday Agreement, in those years a lot of people suffered on

:07:32.:07:37.

both sides, partly some would say because of his intransigence? The

:07:38.:07:40.

one thing about Ian Paisley he was first and foremost a democrat. He

:07:41.:07:46.

was man to believed very strongly in the democratic process, he always

:07:47.:07:49.

condemned in the strongest terrorism violence or terrorism, whichever

:07:50.:07:53.

side it came from. What he was very keen to establish was a durable way

:07:54.:07:59.

forward, which did not give either undue influence to the Dublin

:08:00.:08:04.

Government, as the Anglo-Irish agreement did in 1985, or which put

:08:05.:08:07.

terrorists into the heart of Government in Northern Ireland with

:08:08.:08:10.

them still holding on to their weapons and not supporting the

:08:11.:08:14.

police. His language was inflammatory wasn't it? He said the

:08:15.:08:20.

most extraordinary things, and often the accusation of bigotry was often

:08:21.:08:25.

laid at his door. He tacked about Catholics breeding like rabbits and

:08:26.:08:28.

the Pope was called the scarlet woman of Rome. This was not just

:08:29.:08:34.

rhetoric, it was deeply wounding to a lot of people. All the Catholics

:08:35.:08:37.

in the country, it was incredibly wounding and he knew it. I was

:08:38.:08:41.

reading an article today I think it was in the New Statesman, in which

:08:42.:08:45.

they recalled a reporter going and listening to one of his sermons, and

:08:46.:08:51.

saying it was no different from the preachers in the Deep South of

:08:52.:08:54.

America, or the Protestant chapels in South Wales. His belief was very

:08:55.:09:03.

strong in terms of his Protestant evangelicalism, and he brooked no

:09:04.:09:08.

cause in taking on these issues. Do you think he will be remembered as

:09:09.:09:12.

one of the men who stirred the troubles or who delivered peace? I

:09:13.:09:16.

think he will be remembered by different people from the community

:09:17.:09:20.

in different ways. He was a very complex character, but he will be

:09:21.:09:23.

remembered fundamentally as a man who I believe said no when it was

:09:24.:09:26.

right to say no, and he said yes when the time had come to say yes. I

:09:27.:09:32.

wonder what he made of the independence referendum in Scotland?

:09:33.:09:38.

Well, he hadn't expressed a view publicly on that but I know from my

:09:39.:09:41.

close working with him over many, many years that he would have been

:09:42.:09:48.

fundamentally and passionately in favour of our Scots kith and kin,

:09:49.:09:52.

Ulster people have many connections with people in Scotland, remaining

:09:53.:09:56.

inside the United Kingdom. He would have been passionate about that. And

:09:57.:10:01.

I am sure it would have been one of his dying wishes to see the United

:10:02.:10:06.

Kingdom preserved. Well Jonathan Powell was Tony Blair's Chief of

:10:07.:10:09.

Staff and the British Government's lead negotiator in Northern Ireland

:10:10.:10:12.

during the talks to secure the Good Friday Agreement. He joins us now

:10:13.:10:17.

from Switzerland. First of all, what was Ian Paisley really like as a

:10:18.:10:23.

negotiator? He was very effective. He was very hard, drove a very hard

:10:24.:10:28.

bargain. And he got what he wanted, he settled for it, he was a

:10:29.:10:31.

relatively easy person to negotiate with. He carried his side with him.

:10:32.:10:35.

Sometimes unionist leaders had trouble doing that, but he could

:10:36.:10:38.

always bring them with him. Did you know, you must have been aware and

:10:39.:10:43.

you know you have a very detailed book about this whole process, you

:10:44.:10:47.

must have been aware that the back channels were open between the DUP

:10:48.:10:50.

and Sinn Fein through a lot of this time of negotiation? Yes, I mean on

:10:51.:10:56.

the face of it we were shuttling backwards and forwards between two

:10:57.:10:58.

parts that wouldn't meet. In fact they did have back channel meetings,

:10:59.:11:01.

they didn't get very far in negotiating with those. There were

:11:02.:11:06.

more to build confidence. Did you know in your heart of hearts that he

:11:07.:11:09.

would never sign up to the Good Friday Agreement? I never expected

:11:10.:11:14.

him to sign up to the Good Friday Agreement, and George Mitchell who

:11:15.:11:19.

was a facilitator then said thank goodness he didn't participate in

:11:20.:11:24.

the negotiations. He said if he hadn't participated we wouldn't have

:11:25.:11:28.

got to the Good Friday Agreement. How did you deal with his attitudes

:11:29.:11:33.

to Catholics, you heard the kind of language he used, what was he like

:11:34.:11:36.

in private? In private he could be charming and very, very amusing, but

:11:37.:11:40.

he did take a very hardline. He was not prepared for example to shake

:11:41.:11:43.

hands with an Irish Prime Minister, until the very end of the St Andrews

:11:44.:11:51.

talk, right at the very end. Bertie Ahearn presented him with a bowl

:11:52.:11:55.

created with wood from the site of the battle of the Boyne, he was

:11:56.:11:59.

emotional, he and his wife were there and they shook hand, that was

:12:00.:12:03.

the first time he had shaken hands with an Irish Catholic Prime

:12:04.:12:06.

Minister. For a start did you ever see him off his guard, was that a

:12:07.:12:09.

moment you saw him off his guard do you think? I think that was an

:12:10.:12:13.

emotional moment. He was an emotional man, and he reacted in an

:12:14.:12:16.

emotional way from time to time. But he was a discipline negotiator and

:12:17.:12:21.

that helps a facilitator if someone sticks to what they say they are

:12:22.:12:26.

going to deliver. Do you get any sense that he regretted at any point

:12:27.:12:30.

the bellicose way he dealt with things and his nature? I don't think

:12:31.:12:33.

he looked back like that, he was always looking forward. But he did

:12:34.:12:37.

have this transformation in 2004, he went into hospital and he came out a

:12:38.:12:41.

really rather changed man both physically and mentally. He told

:12:42.:12:44.

Tony Blair later that he had a close encounter with his maker, he nearly

:12:45.:12:48.

died. On the back that have he changed his mind, he decided he

:12:49.:12:52.

wanted to die as Dr Yes, not Dr No. After that moment in the

:12:53.:12:56.

negotiations... That's interesting, that at that very moment he thought

:12:57.:13:02.

he would die before there was peace? He thought he was going to die in

:13:03.:13:05.

that hospital. When he came out he was determined to succeed in getting

:13:06.:13:08.

to peace. And there after he was actually well ahead of his party. He

:13:09.:13:11.

would be in meetings saying yes when the rest of the party was saying no.

:13:12.:13:14.

And he was able to deliver them. And without him I'm not at all sure we

:13:15.:13:19.

would have got to the St Andrews' agreement. When you look now at what

:13:20.:13:23.

was achieved, do you think anyone other than Ian Paisley could have

:13:24.:13:28.

achieved that? I think it was in the end essential to have people on, if

:13:29.:13:31.

you like, the two extremes, to have Sinn Fein on one side and the DUP on

:13:32.:13:35.

the other side. No-one could outflank them or attack a deal they

:13:36.:13:39.

came to. That was crucial to getting to lasting peace, the peace we had

:13:40.:13:42.

before proved to be fragile. And when you assessed the kind of

:13:43.:13:47.

legacy, it is amazing when you actually look back at some of that

:13:48.:13:51.

archive, because we haven't heard from Ian Paisley for such a while,

:13:52.:13:55.

you forget how much we saw of that in the late 1970s and 1980sm and

:13:56.:14:00.

people's views change. How do you think he will be remembered? I think

:14:01.:14:07.

he will be remembered for both, both contributing to the start of the

:14:08.:14:12.

troubles by his march on west Belfast to remove the tricolour from

:14:13.:14:19.

the Sinn Fein office, and the end of the troubles at St Andrews, you

:14:20.:14:22.

can't leave out both in rembering him. When you watch the way he

:14:23.:14:25.

operated in Northern Ireland, when he sat down with Martin McGuinness,

:14:26.:14:30.

and Martin McGuinness said tonight to all intents and purposes they

:14:31.:14:32.

were joint leaders in Northern Ireland. When you look at the

:14:33.:14:37.

relationship, it must be a psychologist's dream to look at that

:14:38.:14:40.

relationship, what did you make of it? It was extraordinary from the

:14:41.:14:43.

very first moment that they sat down together when we went for the

:14:44.:14:46.

swearing in of the executive, from the very first moment they were

:14:47.:14:50.

laughing on the sofa, made speeches that complimented each other. It was

:14:51.:14:55.

an extraordinary transformation. Sometimes you have these cathartic

:14:56.:15:00.

moment in peace processes, where people on is either side come

:15:01.:15:03.

together to make it work. If Ian Paisley had not been in office that

:15:04.:15:07.

first year I'm not sure the institutions and Northern Ireland

:15:08.:15:10.

would have lasted. Times are difficult in Northern Ireland, there

:15:11.:15:13.

are difficulties between the parties, he made it work to start

:15:14.:15:18.

with. How will you remember him? I will remember him as someone who

:15:19.:15:21.

could be very amusing, could be very difficult, could be very tough, and

:15:22.:15:25.

someone who was very, very religious, right at the beginning

:15:26.:15:28.

Tony Blair was told by Peter rob intone you have to build a

:15:29.:15:31.

relationship with Ian Paisley if you are going to get to a peace

:15:32.:15:34.

agreement. So Tony Blair went to great lengths to see him privately,

:15:35.:15:37.

they used to talk in the den in Number Ten Downing Street, the two

:15:38.:15:42.

of them, I would shut the door and listen outside and here chuckening,

:15:43.:15:46.

laughter and voices raised, I would go in and expect something agreed on

:15:47.:15:51.

the negotiation and text, instead we were talking about religion Grace. I

:15:52.:15:56.

remember he left behind a religious tract for Leo, Tony Blair's son,

:15:57.:15:59.

rather than the negotiating paper I hoped to see. A religious man and

:16:00.:16:03.

driven by his faith, both in the things he did at the beginning,

:16:04.:16:07.

which in my view were wrong, and those things he did at the end,

:16:08.:16:12.

which were clearly right. In Iraq American air strikes have, for now,

:16:13.:16:15.

halted the advance of the Islamic state. Ic State, and speaking in

:16:16.:16:21.

Turkey today, John Kerry said he was confident that the US could build a

:16:22.:16:26.

broad coalition of European and Arab countries. However he said it was

:16:27.:16:29.

inappropriate for Iran to join that coalition. It is now clear he chose

:16:30.:16:33.

his words carefully. Newsnight has learned that on the ground Iran

:16:34.:16:37.

already appears to be sending troops and weapons into the conflict areas.

:16:38.:16:44.

Gabriel Gatehouse has been to one town just recaptured from IS and has

:16:45.:16:47.

sent this report. There is little left here of the

:16:48.:16:52.

Iraqi state, of the sovereign, stable and self-reliant country that

:16:53.:16:55.

America and her allies hoped to create. We're travelling towards the

:16:56.:17:02.

frontline where an uneasy alliance of Kurdish forces and Shia militia

:17:03.:17:08.

groups is battling Islamic State with support from American air

:17:09.:17:13.

strikes. This is a Sunni town, recently

:17:14.:17:17.

retaken after months under IS control. When the Shia militia

:17:18.:17:22.

commander and his men entered the town they discovered a mass grave,

:17:23.:17:31.

around 60 bodies, mostly Iraqi army soldiers, and truck drivers. They

:17:32.:17:35.

had their hands tied and some had been beheaded. The smell of death

:17:36.:17:39.

lingers in the air, and with it hatred and mistrust. One of the

:17:40.:17:45.

problems here is that the local people of this town supported IS in

:17:46.:17:54.

what they were doing? TRANSLATION: They ran away, they are not here.

:17:55.:17:58.

Some of the locals worked with Islamic State. Will those people

:17:59.:18:02.

ever be able to come back here and live? TRANSLATION: Impossible. The

:18:03.:18:14.

key to President Obama's strategy is to drain the Sunni extremists of

:18:15.:18:19.

Islamic State of local support by drawing moderates into a broad

:18:20.:18:24.

coalition. But this town is deserted, even the Sunni mayor, who

:18:25.:18:28.

pled IS in fear of his own life says it is too dangerous for him now to

:18:29.:18:32.

be here in the presence of the Shia militia. You are afraid, why are you

:18:33.:18:41.

afraid? TRANSLATION: I can't tell you now, he says. We will meet him

:18:42.:18:49.

again later. One of the Shia militia groups invited us in for tea at

:18:50.:18:54.

their forward base, just a few kilometres from the frontline. Their

:18:55.:18:57.

members are by and large Iraqis, but the brigade is trained and funded by

:18:58.:19:01.

Iran. They don't want to talk about that though. Without doubt it has

:19:02.:19:07.

been American fire power in the skies that has done the most to halt

:19:08.:19:14.

the advance of IS. But here, on the ground, it is not America but Iran

:19:15.:19:19.

that is running the show and not just through their proxys, the Shia

:19:20.:19:25.

militia. Few were willing to talk openly about the extent of Iran's

:19:26.:19:28.

involvement in fighting Islamic state on the ground in Iraq. But one

:19:29.:19:33.

Iraqi army officer, who wanted to remain anonymous for his own safety,

:19:34.:19:37.

told us that Iranian forces were operating in large numbers alongside

:19:38.:19:41.

Kurdish forces as well as Shia militia. TRANSLATION: They are in

:19:42.:19:47.

charge of heavy weapons and artillery, locating the enemy and

:19:48.:19:49.

shelling them, it is clear the weapons are from Iran. The Iranians

:19:50.:19:54.

are all over this area, they control it now. You are saying that Iran in

:19:55.:20:03.

effect controls this part of Iraq? TRANSLATION: They control everything

:20:04.:20:08.

except the flag. Less than three years after American soldiers were

:20:09.:20:12.

forced, reluctantly, to withdraw from Iraq, Iranian troops at their

:20:13.:20:19.

proxies, appear to be taking their place. Moderate Sunnis find

:20:20.:20:25.

themselves squeezed between the brutal Jihadists of Islamic State,

:20:26.:20:30.

and the hostile Shia backed militia group. The Mayor of This town has

:20:31.:20:35.

had to flee his home town, he says he and his people are forced to pick

:20:36.:20:41.

sides. TRANSLATION: Everyone hates IS, but the enemy of my enemy is my

:20:42.:20:45.

friend. Five of my brothers have been killed by Islamic State or

:20:46.:20:49.

Al-Qaeda. But I would rather they won this war than the other side. We

:20:50.:20:58.

travelled on to the latest frontline, just a few kilometres

:20:59.:21:01.

west of the town and the site of the mass grave. IS fighters are holed up

:21:02.:21:09.

just a few hundred metres away. As we are filming a shell lands in the

:21:10.:21:18.

field in front of us. Then the sound of another being fired. Everyone

:21:19.:21:22.

just dived for cover, because out of the blue we heard the whistle of

:21:23.:21:28.

what sounded like a mortar coming from the Islamic State lines over

:21:29.:21:31.

there. Everyone went face down into the dust. The shell landed some way

:21:32.:21:37.

away, no-one was hurt. But there are daily battles here. This outpost is

:21:38.:21:42.

controlled by the Kurds, the third force in the growing conflict

:21:43.:21:45.

between Sunni and Shia. For the moment the Kurds are content to

:21:46.:21:50.

fight IS alongside the Shia militia. But in the long-term they have their

:21:51.:21:58.

own interests. Of The commander tells me it is Kurdish territory,

:21:59.:22:02.

and they won't accept the presence of Shia militia here. The United

:22:03.:22:07.

States sees little option but to support this unlikely alliance

:22:08.:22:10.

against the Jihadists of Islamic State. But Iraq's divisions are

:22:11.:22:17.

becoming ever-more entrenched and on the ground Iran's control grows

:22:18.:22:22.

stronger by the day. Tonight Boris Johnson took on the

:22:23.:22:30.

unlikely role of a supplicate seeking preferment, he went to

:22:31.:22:35.

prostate himself in subject of the South Ruislip Conservative

:22:36.:22:38.

Association in the hopes of seeking a seat in the general election. He

:22:39.:22:45.

was expected face tough questions not least his preferring of a third

:22:46.:22:51.

runway at Heathrow. Have you heard from Mr Cameron? Good night, sorry

:22:52.:23:03.

to miss you on Newsnight. Allegra Stratton is there. They have gone

:23:04.:23:07.

for him? David Cameron said they wanted their best men and women on

:23:08.:23:10.

the pitch, Boris Johnson is on the bench and waiting. We understand it

:23:11.:23:14.

was a fairly tough grilling, the four candidates had half an hour

:23:15.:23:18.

each of Hustings, 140 people asking them questions, but one source tells

:23:19.:23:21.

us he was head and shoulders above the rest, he should be really,

:23:22.:23:26.

shouldn't he. He is not only an MP before but the Mayor of London. He

:23:27.:23:30.

wanted to be on the pitch, and David Cameron wanted him on there, will he

:23:31.:23:33.

not take David Cameron off the pitch, do you think? He might do at

:23:34.:23:37.

some point. It is a difficult period for David Cameron, more so than I

:23:38.:23:40.

think the Prime Minister thought it might have been about a month ago.

:23:41.:23:43.

He thought he had his Tories in quite a good place. But they are

:23:44.:23:48.

very restive, as you would expect about the possibility of having a

:23:49.:23:52.

Prime Minister that presides over the collapse over the European. Even

:23:53.:23:56.

if it doesn't collapse the idea of more powers to Scotland does not go

:23:57.:24:01.

down well for the Tories. And then a Tory defection to UKIP, it means if

:24:02.:24:05.

the Tories lose the next election it is game on for Boris Johnson, even

:24:06.:24:09.

if they go in with David Cameron as Prime Minister, Boris Johnson is now

:24:10.:24:11.

sitting pretty. Thank you very much. In Scotland the latest poll

:24:12.:24:18.

suggests that the referendum race is still too close to call. With an ICN

:24:19.:24:25.

poll for the Guardian puts it neck and neck. We are in Glasgow tonight

:24:26.:24:31.

and we will get up-to-date with the campaign this evening.

:24:32.:24:37.

What's new? Just over in that direction an hour or two ago in the

:24:38.:24:44.

Teachers' Hall, named not after the people who toil in classrooms but

:24:45.:24:48.

whiskey, Nigel Farage addressed an enthusiastic audience. His message,

:24:49.:24:52.

don't kid yourself Scotland, there is no such thing as independence if

:24:53.:24:57.

Scotland remains within the EU. How much good that kind of intervention

:24:58.:25:02.

from UKIP does in this close low-fought campaign, I'm not

:25:03.:25:06.

entirely sure. But those numbers you were mentioning, 49 to the yes side,

:25:07.:25:11.

51 for the no side in the latest ICM poll for the Guardian, there is

:25:12.:25:14.

another figure in there that we should note. That is the headline

:25:15.:25:17.

figure when you strip out those who don't know. The "don't knows"

:25:18.:25:23.

according to that poll 17%. With six days to go everything to play for.

:25:24.:25:27.

Aside from Nigel Farage, there is a lot of noise around these claims and

:25:28.:25:31.

counter claims from business about what impact independence would have

:25:32.:25:37.

for consumers? Exactly, and Alex Salmond spent much of the day trying

:25:38.:25:42.

to counter that. He said this bullying takes by big business, big

:25:43.:25:46.

Government and big oil. They are particularly insensed on the yes

:25:47.:25:51.

side about an intervention by the Treasury, on Wednesday night we got

:25:52.:25:56.

the news that RBS would plan to relocate their business out of

:25:57.:25:59.

Scotland to London if there was a yes vote. Well, we learned today

:26:00.:26:06.

that was communicated to a journalist by the Treasury before

:26:07.:26:11.

even the board had made the official decision, before they had even

:26:12.:26:14.

finished their meeting. Alex Salmond wants answers, he recognises, he

:26:15.:26:19.

says a concerted dirty tricks campaign against the yes side. Now,

:26:20.:26:25.

also, it sounds like the Better Together campaign are focussing on

:26:26.:26:28.

the economic arguments and not really embracing this idea that

:26:29.:26:32.

Scots are really heart felt members of the British Isles, it is a were.

:26:33.:26:35.

You have been looking at where they stand in the British family and how

:26:36.:26:38.

Britishness has been playing this week? Indeed, that is the case. I

:26:39.:26:43.

think a lot of the foreign journalists who have arrived here

:26:44.:26:53.

for this big new story, expected it to be carried out by Mel Gibson on

:26:54.:26:59.

one side and people draped in the Union Jack on the other. It is

:27:00.:27:02.

emphatically not that fight as you well know.

:27:03.:27:06.

Call it the bulldog that didn't bark, but one theme hardly

:27:07.:27:10.

referenced in this examine is Britishness. That might -- campaign

:27:11.:27:15.

is Britishness. It might not be sensible to some, but it is perfect

:27:16.:27:20.

sense in Scotland. Britishness has a good deal of difficulty identifying

:27:21.:27:25.

as a modern contemporary identity rather than backward one. The idea

:27:26.:27:28.

that Britishness has to be one thing, that is difficult to sell in

:27:29.:27:32.

Scotland, it meant Britishness has become an oppositional identity.

:27:33.:27:35.

That is not to say there are not Scots who strongly associate with

:27:36.:27:38.

Britishness, but they will not represent more than had a proportion

:27:39.:27:43.

even of those voting no. Tonight 's big no campaign event was Labour

:27:44.:27:47.

one. And you won't hear passionate defences of Britishness here.

:27:48.:27:51.

Instead a plea to continue a common struggle against a common enemy, the

:27:52.:27:57.

Labour leader quote ago now dead communist Scottish trade unionists

:27:58.:28:01.

to make his point. He said the Scottish worker has more in common

:28:02.:28:07.

with the London docker, the Sheffield engineer, than the

:28:08.:28:11.

Scottish baron and the Scottish landowner, that is solidarity. That

:28:12.:28:16.

is what solidarity is all about. That is what nationalism, friends

:28:17.:28:26.

that is what nationalism will never understand. That solidarity is what

:28:27.:28:32.

unites our movement. Gordon Brown too spoke at the Labour event, about

:28:33.:28:38.

Britishness as an inclusive identity was one of the pet themes of his

:28:39.:28:42.

Premiership, although his crickets suggested this was really about

:28:43.:28:44.

selling a very Scottish Prime Minister to very English voters. The

:28:45.:28:50.

yes campaign contend that the inclusivity of Britishness is no

:28:51.:28:55.

longer needed, today at a rather peculiar event, different

:28:56.:28:59.

ethnicities, and nationalities were claimed their parallel Scottishness.

:29:00.:29:04.

Angel describes herself as an English Scot. How English? She was

:29:05.:29:09.

born to Scottish parents working at the time temporarily in England.

:29:10.:29:12.

Britishness is not something that is being accepted, not just here in

:29:13.:29:17.

Scotland, but also in the north of England and Wales and Ireland, we

:29:18.:29:20.

just don't identify with that stereotype, you know. We are not

:29:21.:29:25.

that, we are not roast beef, we are haggis. The Union Jack flies in

:29:26.:29:30.

Glasgow still, but often it is linked to a specific unionist range

:29:31.:29:38.

of supporting identity. At this Tavern, Jim Macduff tells me there

:29:39.:29:43.

is a community that feels stigmatised and marginalised.

:29:44.:29:47.

is a community that feels for being Scottish and British, then

:29:48.:29:54.

you are traitor. Into this delicate cacophony of sometimes competing,

:29:55.:29:58.

sometimes complimentry, sometimes overlapping identities, tonight

:29:59.:30:02.

pitched the UKIP leader, Nigel Farage, his message not so much a

:30:03.:30:06.

hymn to Britain, but a warning to Scots not to believe that

:30:07.:30:09.

independence is possible inside the EU. Alex Salmond talk about how

:30:10.:30:14.

strong Scotland can be in the European Union. Let me tell you

:30:15.:30:19.

Scotland will be a small and pretty irrelevant member-state of the

:30:20.:30:24.

European Union. This referendum is not a referendum on Britishness

:30:25.:30:28.

versus Scottishness, if it were it would have probably been decided

:30:29.:30:34.

long ago. It is more a debate about where Scotland's best future lies,

:30:35.:30:39.

inside or outside the UK. Here to discuss what the

:30:40.:30:42.

independence debate with tell us about British next we have the film

:30:43.:30:47.

director Ken Loach and broadcaster Echo with us.

:30:48.:30:50.

You have the Better Together campaign flying the saltire in

:30:51.:30:56.

Scotland, but you would think they would want to fly the Union Flag in

:30:57.:30:59.

Scotland, and that is not acceptable, and the Scots were the

:31:00.:31:05.

agents of empire? The context of Britishness is too woolly or vague,

:31:06.:31:09.

it doesn't have a political point and the Britishness of ordinary

:31:10.:31:13.

people, and the values of solidarity, of community, of

:31:14.:31:18.

neighbourliness, of looking after your brother and sister, that's not

:31:19.:31:21.

the values of the Bullingdon boys at the top of the establishment. So the

:31:22.:31:26.

concept is too vague really to have any meaning politically. What does

:31:27.:31:31.

being British mean to you? I think Britishness is an important concept,

:31:32.:31:35.

I think Britishness is about a country, with lots of different

:31:36.:31:41.

people, Britishness is about peculiarity, Britishness is about a

:31:42.:31:45.

country which has been historically open in sometimes difficult ways to

:31:46.:31:47.

all sorts of people from all parts of the world. But if Scotland wasn't

:31:48.:31:52.

part of that Britain, would you still feel part of that Britain? I

:31:53.:31:58.

actually think one of the issues is that politicians, especially in

:31:59.:32:01.

England, less so in Scotland, especially in England, have made a

:32:02.:32:04.

poor case for what Britishness can be. Under the Tory-led Government

:32:05.:32:09.

politicians of all parties have actually retreated from making a

:32:10.:32:12.

progressive case for Britain which, is to say that Britain is a better

:32:13.:32:18.

place because of immigration and cultural mixing we have in this

:32:19.:32:23.

country. You look at your film Spirit of 45, there was no greater

:32:24.:32:27.

hype of Britishness then? And all the British achievements then have

:32:28.:32:31.

been systematically destroyed and dismembered. Think about British

:32:32.:32:36.

Rail, it is own by Germans, or Dutch people and run by them, our power

:32:37.:32:39.

companies are owned by the French, and George Osborne is getting the

:32:40.:32:43.

Chinese to invest in nuclear power. There is no great respect for the

:32:44.:32:47.

Great British achievement. And the NHS is now the providers of the

:32:48.:32:51.

services is being hived off to foreign healthcare companies. So

:32:52.:32:56.

there is no great concern for the Great British institutions which we

:32:57.:33:01.

established. Do you see yourself primarily as English or British?

:33:02.:33:05.

Fundamentally I think of myself as British, which is to say I'm a

:33:06.:33:09.

citizen of a country that is made up of many different people. I think

:33:10.:33:13.

what is important about that is that I think our identity as British

:33:14.:33:17.

people can be predicated not just on par as to what we have had, but on

:33:18.:33:22.

the present. Ken Loach is saying there isn't a clear enough idea

:33:23.:33:26.

about those things? All the good things in tolerance, in

:33:27.:33:29.

inclusiveness, we have to fight for those. We have to fight for those

:33:30.:33:32.

whether Scotland is part of this country or not. I hope the Scots

:33:33.:33:38.

take the advantage and actually make a different kind of society, that is

:33:39.:33:41.

what they are trying to do. They want a society of tolerance and

:33:42.:33:46.

inclusiveness, and that is not the kind of society that the Farrages

:33:47.:33:49.

and the Camerons are going to have in mind for us. Let's be honest,

:33:50.:33:56.

UKIP has a small percentage of support in England? In Scotland. In

:33:57.:34:03.

England? Well let's see. Part of the problem with all of this is it comes

:34:04.:34:08.

in when you start discussing nationalism, which is that ideas of

:34:09.:34:13.

nation tend to revolve around fixed ideas of what a country has been and

:34:14.:34:17.

what a country should be, in fact if you think about nations, thriving,

:34:18.:34:22.

progressive nations are places that reinvent themselves all the time.

:34:23.:34:27.

Not absolutely but reinvent themselves based on the values they

:34:28.:34:30.

have, but based on the opportunities that new people bring to those

:34:31.:34:34.

countries. For you is it too late to reinvent Britishness? It is not too

:34:35.:34:40.

late to make a decent society. How would you rekindle it? Whether it is

:34:41.:34:43.

British, English or Welsh or whatever. That is not the point.

:34:44.:34:47.

Britishness was about empire and slavery and oppression. Sense the

:34:48.:34:53.

butcher's apron. Britishness has a long legacy which we want to disown.

:34:54.:34:57.

When people come and are made welcome and we work together, that's

:34:58.:35:02.

the kind of society we want. Could there be more effective ways in

:35:03.:35:05.

Scotland of selling the idea of Britishness? Well yes, I think so. I

:35:06.:35:11.

think the point is Britain in Scotland. Even if you are in

:35:12.:35:15.

Scotland or England the notion of Britain has a country that is open

:35:16.:35:19.

for possibility, as a country where the individuals in it, wherever they

:35:20.:35:24.

come from, have an opportunity, possibly even an obligation to make

:35:25.:35:29.

themselves heard, to make themselves part of what the country itself can

:35:30.:35:34.

be. Not what it has been. I think you can frame what Britain is as a

:35:35.:35:39.

place of genuine possibility, genuine progress, even hope, rather

:35:40.:35:44.

than insisting that it is best and its true values lie only in the

:35:45.:35:48.

past. This is a different kind of politics, it needs a different kind

:35:49.:35:52.

of politics, based on common ownership, you have to have an

:35:53.:35:56.

economic system that he will flect community and sharing and e--

:35:57.:35:59.

reflect community and sharing and equality. Our Britishness is massive

:36:00.:36:04.

equality, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. We have

:36:05.:36:07.

to have a different structure to make the Britishness you are talking

:36:08.:36:09.

about. Thank you very much both of you. It was no surprise to you that

:36:10.:36:14.

Oscar Pistorius of found guilty of culpable homicide, the parents of

:36:15.:36:18.

Reeva Steenkamp had wanted a murder conviction, and he wept when ageted

:36:19.:36:24.

of murder yesterday. -- acquitted of murder yesterday. Today he was

:36:25.:36:27.

impassive as the judge delivered the verdict. How has South Africa felt

:36:28.:36:31.

for being under the gaze of the world for this, rather than

:36:32.:36:37.

something to be proud of? At the centre of a media frenzy, as

:36:38.:36:42.

he has been since he fired those fatal rounds on Valentine's Day last

:36:43.:36:47.

year, Oscar Pistorius was freed on bail after the best verdict he could

:36:48.:36:57.

have hoped for. One that took many onlookers by surprise. Mr Pistorius

:36:58.:37:09.

please stand up. On count 1, murder red with section 51 (1) of the

:37:10.:37:15.

criminal law amendment act, 105 of 1997, the accused is found not

:37:16.:37:24.

guilty and is discharged. Instead he's found guilty of culpable

:37:25.:37:30.

homicide. State prosecutors said they would await sentencing before

:37:31.:37:33.

considering an appeal. We are disappointed that we did not get or

:37:34.:37:39.

secure a conviction on premeditated murder, and also that there was an

:37:40.:37:43.

acquittal on the other two charges. But as I said, we are satisfied at

:37:44.:37:48.

this point that you know the court has played its role. Pistorius's

:37:49.:37:55.

uncle spoke on behalf of his family. We had never any doubt in Oscar's

:37:56.:38:04.

version, we as a family remain deeply affected by the devastating

:38:05.:38:14.

tragedy of the event. And it won't bring Reeva back, but our hearts

:38:15.:38:17.

still go out for her family and friends. Famous, wealthy, with his

:38:18.:38:30.

model girlfriend on his arm. Piss pitches one of South Africa's

:38:31.:38:38.

favourite sons. Until he blasted the defenceless Reeva Steenkamp through

:38:39.:38:42.

a toilet door through his apartment. The court accepted he hadn't meant

:38:43.:38:48.

to kill her, but that he was negligent, shooting first at a

:38:49.:38:51.

presumed intruder, he said, instead of calling for help. The prosecution

:38:52.:38:58.

portrayed him as gun toting and trigger happy. Pistorius gave his

:38:59.:39:03.

evidence off camera? I heard a noise coming from inside the toilet that I

:39:04.:39:08.

interpreted at that split moment as coming out to attack me, my lady.

:39:09.:39:14.

You just started shooting, or accidentally your fingers pulled the

:39:15.:39:16.

trigger. I started shooting at that point. At the intruders. They door.

:39:17.:39:22.

But in your mind, at the intruders? That is what I perceived as a

:39:23.:39:26.

shooter coming out to attack me. The state's case seemed to echo the

:39:27.:39:31.

words of an ex-girlfriend outside court, who said that Pistorius was

:39:32.:39:39.

an accident waiting to happen. It is hard to remember that Oscar

:39:40.:39:43.

Pistorius was once a celebrated athlete, the Blade Runner. The

:39:44.:39:48.

poster boy for Paralympic sport. He even competed against able bodied

:39:49.:39:53.

athletes at the London games two years ago. Incredibly a comeback at

:39:54.:39:59.

the Rio Paralympics is not out of the question. If he served any

:40:00.:40:04.

punishment given to him before Rio then the ball is in his court, if he

:40:05.:40:08.

wants to compete then we wouldn't stand in his way. But there's the

:40:09.:40:13.

little matter of his sentencing first. Miss Steenkamp's mother says

:40:14.:40:17.

she has forgiven him, but the family's pain is raw. Only people

:40:18.:40:26.

that have gone through this, will understand. It is easy for other

:40:27.:40:32.

people to look in and see and listen and have their thoughts but only

:40:33.:40:36.

once they have gone through it will they know what we feel. Pistorius is

:40:37.:40:45.

at his uncle's home tonight, while his case raises uncomfortable

:40:46.:40:50.

questions for South African society, such as sexism, domestic violence

:40:51.:41:00.

and gun crime. Earlier I spoke to the South African journalist. The

:41:01.:41:06.

eyes of the world are on South African but not for the right

:41:07.:41:11.

reasons, how uncomfortable do South Africans feel about this? They are

:41:12.:41:20.

uncomfortable that their golder boy has turned into this. South Africans

:41:21.:41:25.

found Oscar guilty in the court of public opinion before he actually

:41:26.:41:30.

walked into the dock. They are shocked on their findings of the

:41:31.:41:34.

judge and I think they want to see him go to jail for a long time. That

:41:35.:41:38.

is certainly the feeling I get there. They believe because he was

:41:39.:41:42.

wealthy he got away with it. That it has become a license for men who

:41:43.:41:45.

show violence to women. There are even many who say this is a racist

:41:46.:41:51.

decision. Although Judge Thokozile Masipa is a black judge. Is that the

:41:52.:41:54.

view across all sections of South African society? Yes, a very widely

:41:55.:42:01.

held view, here in Pretoria where Oscar Pistorius lived and went to

:42:02.:42:08.

school, there is a very hard kernal of support for him, people walking

:42:09.:42:13.

around wearing the old school tie for his school. There is that if you

:42:14.:42:18.

went into a pub in Pretoria and said something about Oscar you would pick

:42:19.:42:22.

up trouble. Widely the belief is he was guilty and there is some shock

:42:23.:42:26.

disappointment and anger at the findings of the judge. That is

:42:27.:42:29.

interesting, because what you seem to be suggesting is that if all

:42:30.:42:34.

sections of society, black and white, are united, that is an

:42:35.:42:40.

interesting unity? Very much so, but I mean the victim was a white woman,

:42:41.:42:46.

and people saying this beautiful white woman's life was taken nobody

:42:47.:42:49.

has paid yet. That is why I think the hope is there is no murder

:42:50.:42:55.

charge, but there will be a lengthy prison sentence handed down

:42:56.:42:59.

mid-October. You know Oscar Pistorius well, you MC'd the launch

:43:00.:43:05.

of his book, how will he be taking all of this. What will he be

:43:06.:43:09.

thinking just now as they prepare the appeal? The court heard about

:43:10.:43:15.

the two Oscars, the champion, the athlete, who overcomes great odds

:43:16.:43:21.

and the very, very vulnerable person who feels anxiety and is terribly,

:43:22.:43:26.

terribly aware of his limitations as a disabled person. I think what we

:43:27.:43:34.

are seeing now is a hugely relieved Oscar, he wept with relief yesterday

:43:35.:43:37.

when the murder charges were dropped. There is some anticipation

:43:38.:43:41.

about the culpable homicide charge. He comes from a moneyed family, and

:43:42.:43:49.

certainly his uncle won't allow any custodial sentence to go unappealed.

:43:50.:43:53.

This will run and run. If a custodial sentence is handed down

:43:54.:43:58.

mid-October, it will go to the appeals, it will go all the way to

:43:59.:44:01.

the constitutional court. It will be some years before Oscar Pistorius,

:44:02.:44:05.

if indeed he does ever walk through a Prisongate. Thank you very much

:44:06.:44:10.

for joining us tonight. That's about it for tonight. It is also the last

:44:11.:44:14.

night of the Newsnight Proms, our series of live previews of the BBC

:44:15.:44:26.

Prom, we wemt with a South African lyric soprano singing Puccini's O

:44:27.:44:27.

Mio Babbino Caro. If outdoor plans for the weekend are

:44:28.:46:39.

for you it is a good

:46:40.:46:40.