15/09/2014 Newsnight


15/09/2014

Live from the heartland of the Yes vote, a Scotland referendum special. With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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Good evening, there are fewer than 60 hours to go until the polling

:00:09.:00:14.

stations open for the referendum on Scottish independence, and the fight

:00:15.:00:19.

for every last vote is on. We're in the Newsnight tent in Broughty Ferry

:00:20.:00:24.

in the SNP constituency of donity East, with an audience of mainly yes

:00:25.:00:28.

supporter, tomorrow we will be mainly with no voters in the only

:00:29.:00:34.

Tory seat in Scotland. In the yes camp Cox and the no camp, Mone and

:00:35.:00:42.

local MP, Stewart Hosie, we will be speaking to David Cameron before the

:00:43.:00:47.

final vote. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to say the EU would

:00:48.:00:52.

reject an independent Scotland, we will hear from Spain's Europe

:00:53.:01:04.

Minister who says it is not. Welcome to Broughty Ferry, there is

:01:05.:01:13.

a seemingly unquenchable thirst for debate for this the referendum home

:01:14.:01:18.

straight. Much of it is good tempered, but not all of it. Allegra

:01:19.:01:25.

Stratton has been on the streets of Dundee, the streets of will will and

:01:26.:01:32.

Desperate Dan. She's also in the capital and with Alex Salmond. We

:01:33.:01:36.

will hear from her in a moment. Bryan Cox, do you believe it has

:01:37.:01:42.

been an energising experience for democracy. In the last two or three

:01:43.:01:44.

weeks the gears have shifted massively? Absolutely. It is a

:01:45.:01:49.

movement, and movement for social democracy. The winner in all this is

:01:50.:01:53.

social democracy. We're the envy of the world, the world is looking at

:01:54.:01:56.

us slightly agog at what is going on in Scotland. And I'm proud of our

:01:57.:02:01.

country and all the people here. We have shown an example, which has

:02:02.:02:05.

been sadly missing in the world. I'm really excited about it. Michelle,

:02:06.:02:09.

it is interesting, because in the last general election, the turnout

:02:10.:02:16.

in Scotland was about 64%, it could be over 80% now, could you imagine

:02:17.:02:19.

that happening? Never, I think what it is bringing out is that passion

:02:20.:02:25.

from either side, no-one can question any Scot, we are all

:02:26.:02:28.

passionate about Scotland, whether you are in the yes camp or the no

:02:29.:02:33.

camp. This Team Scotland that Alex Salmond keeps coming out with, I was

:02:34.:02:36.

quite hurt by it, because he was making out people like me, who are

:02:37.:02:41.

yes, wanting us to stay and grow together, he was making me feel as

:02:42.:02:45.

if you're not passionate about Scotland, I'm exceptionally

:02:46.:02:48.

passionate about Scotland, I have grown my businesses here, I live

:02:49.:02:54.

here, I grew up in the East End of Glasgow and I built my companies

:02:55.:02:58.

there. I'm Team Scotland and in the yes camp. You're not, in the no

:02:59.:03:09.

camp! That's wonderful live on television we have a convert.

:03:10.:03:13.

Magnificent, thank you Michelle. That's wonderful. That brings me to

:03:14.:03:23.

a point, yes and no people can have a cuddle. By and large the campaign

:03:24.:03:26.

has been pretty good natured, but it is all not good natured. I wonder if

:03:27.:03:32.

there has been a negative (shouting in the background) Someone is out in

:03:33.:03:39.

Broughty Ferry. Is there negatively? You get head bangers. We just had

:03:40.:03:43.

one here now. You do get head bangers, but on the whole it is, you

:03:44.:03:50.

know the civility is unbelievable, you know. And everybody is worried

:03:51.:03:54.

about what is going to happen afterwards, will we come together

:03:55.:03:57.

again? Of course we will. That is who we are, that is what

:03:58.:04:02.

distinguishes us as a nation. We have got probably two-thirds yes

:04:03.:04:05.

voters here and a third no vote, just coming to the question voters

:04:06.:04:09.

here, did you feel that you have been energised for the first time in

:04:10.:04:13.

political discourse, yes the gentleman with the red jacket and

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the tartan tie, can we hear from you? My yes vote isn't necessarily a

:04:18.:04:22.

vote for any particular policy, it is a vote for democracy, it is a

:04:23.:04:25.

vote for the energy that exists right across Scotland, yes and no.

:04:26.:04:29.

I'm voting yes because there is something new and significant

:04:30.:04:33.

happening in our country at the moment. Just coming round to the no

:04:34.:04:40.

camp here, is there about, vote no if you don't know? Are you very

:04:41.:04:44.

worried about the uncertainties over Europe, which we will talk about

:04:45.:04:49.

later, or the currency, what are your major concerns, somebody there?

:04:50.:04:57.

Yes? The gentleman with the blue shirt what are your major concerns?

:04:58.:05:00.

One of the concerns in the City, which relates to Bryan Cox is really

:05:01.:05:02.

the effects on our universities. We have two eminent universities in the

:05:03.:05:06.

city, I think independence would create difficulties for the

:05:07.:05:09.

financing of the eminent research teams for instance in biosciences.

:05:10.:05:16.

So I find it interesting that Bryan's the rector of the

:05:17.:05:19.

university, but he's supporting independence. We will talk about the

:05:20.:05:24.

wonderful position that Dundee in the world is as a global research

:05:25.:05:27.

centre in the moment. First the temperature of the political

:05:28.:05:31.

rhetoric is rising. Tonight David Cameron delivered a warning to

:05:32.:05:34.

voters, in front of an audience of Conservative activists in Aberdeen,

:05:35.:05:38.

he sent forth an urgent message. Don't take your anger with the

:05:39.:05:43.

austerity or the bedroom tax out in your vote, because there is no going

:05:44.:05:45.

back to the union after Thursday if there is a yes vote.

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Minister, whatever happens in the next few day, the significant

:05:52.:05:53.

constitutional change on the way, that is hardly what you planned? No,

:05:54.:05:57.

I think it is right to have a referendum on whether Scotland wants

:05:58.:06:01.

to stay part of the United Kingdom. But I always said right from the

:06:02.:06:04.

start of this campaign, if Scotland voted no to separation the rest of

:06:05.:06:08.

the United Kingdom would say yes to further devolution. It has been good

:06:09.:06:11.

in the campaign that we have been able to say more about that I think

:06:12.:06:16.

that is a positive. No, doesn't mean no change. It looks last-minute in

:06:17.:06:20.

terms of the timetable and detail. You were the Prime Minister that

:06:21.:06:28.

agreed the referendum but kept devo max off the paper, if it is a yes

:06:29.:06:31.

will you take personal responsibility? On the question of

:06:32.:06:34.

having more than one question, I think it was right to have one

:06:35.:06:38.

question. If Scotland wants more devolution and I think it should

:06:39.:06:41.

have t you have to ask the prior question, "do you want to stay in

:06:42.:06:53.

the United Kingdom? ". That wasn't just my view it was all the major

:06:54.:06:55.

leaders, to settle the question of separation and then devolution. In

:06:56.:06:57.

this campaign the individual parties have set out their proposals and

:06:58.:07:03.

been strikingly similar, so it is. Without that on the ballot paper,

:07:04.:07:08.

many believe that has increased the chances of a question vote, you

:07:09.:07:10.

might be the Prime Minister that presides over the break up of a

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union that is more than 300 years old. How will you feel if that is

:07:17.:07:18.

your legacy? I feel passionately about our United Kingdom. I

:07:19.:07:21.

desperately want our country to stay together. I very much hope that

:07:22.:07:24.

Scotland will vote no and that will trigger further devolution. But I'm

:07:25.:07:28.

a democrat. I was faced by a situation where one part of our

:07:29.:07:36.

UFSHGS kingdom voted for a Government, the Scottish National

:07:37.:07:37.

Party Government, that wanted a referendum I think the right

:07:38.:07:39.

decision was to allow that referendum, rather than to fight T I

:07:40.:07:42.

think if I had said no, you can't have a referendum, I think Scottish

:07:43.:07:45.

independence would be closer today than it is. But you may have

:07:46.:07:51.

presided over an extraordinary set of constitutional events. How will

:07:52.:07:57.

you feel if you are the Prime Minister from the Conservative and

:07:58.:07:59.

Unionist Party who sees that nation break up? I have been very clear, I

:08:00.:08:05.

have said it would break my heart to see the United Kingdom split apart,

:08:06.:08:08.

and a few days before polling day, I say that again on your programme.

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That is not what I seek. I want our United Kingdom to stay together. I

:08:14.:08:16.

believe we are stronger, safer, better off in this dangerous world

:08:17.:08:23.

of instability and problems and threats, the most recent of which we

:08:24.:08:26.

can see from Syria and Iraq. But I'm a democrat, and in the end it is for

:08:27.:08:29.

the people of Scotland to choose, that is the way we do things in

:08:30.:08:35.

these islands. Do you wish that you personally, and the union campaign,

:08:36.:08:38.

had made more effort early on? I believe I fought this campaign very

:08:39.:08:52.

hard. This is something like my 11th major intervention floe this A

:08:53.:08:54.

campaign of more than two years? It is not campaign of the Conservative

:08:55.:08:57.

Party against the Scottish National Party, it is all those parties, and

:08:58.:08:59.

trade unions and volumity bodies and charities,

:09:00.:08:59.

trade unions and volumity bodies and nothing to do with politics who want

:09:00.:09:03.

to stay part of the of nations and those who want to leave. There will

:09:04.:09:07.

be more powers for Scotland, should there will be more powers for

:09:08.:09:15.

England too, an English parliament? I don't think we are remotely at

:09:16.:09:17.

that stage. The debate has begun in your

:09:18.:10:06.

being The key thing that people need to see this week of all weeks. Do

:10:07.:10:12.

you think we are witnessing something fundamentally, not just

:10:13.:10:16.

with the rise of the SNP, but also in terms of UKIP. People seem to be

:10:17.:10:23.

turning away or lost faith of the 50 years of politics that had been

:10:24.:10:25.

settled. Are we seeing something fundamentally? I think what we are

:10:26.:10:28.

seeing is when you have had a difficult and painful recession, and

:10:29.:10:30.

British families have been through very difficult times, many people

:10:31.:10:33.

have lost their jobs. They are now getting them back again. But you

:10:34.:10:37.

have seen pay not going up. Living standards squeezed. When you see

:10:38.:10:41.

those things people want change and answers. What we have to do is

:10:42.:10:45.

explain we can get those answers through a United Kingdom Government.

:10:46.:10:48.

We are coming out of the bad times. We have created two million new

:10:49.:10:53.

jobs. We are seeing the country including Scotland recover and

:10:54.:10:56.

recover strongly and now is not the time to break our country apart. You

:10:57.:10:59.

believe this is partly the product of a recession? As I say

:11:00.:11:03.

anti-politics feeling that you see, not just in Britain, but other

:11:04.:11:07.

countries, is people wanting change, people wanting leaders that

:11:08.:11:11.

understand their aspirations and they want these things fixed. That

:11:12.:11:17.

is what political leaders have to realise and act on. David Cameron

:11:18.:11:24.

talking to Laura, we're here in Broughty Ferry with an audience

:11:25.:11:30.

mainly of yes supporter, but no campaigners too. You heard David

:11:31.:11:38.

Cameron say there that this is his 11th foray into this debate into

:11:39.:11:40.

Scotland. It felt to some people that the cavalry was coming, surely

:11:41.:11:43.

he has every right as Prime Minister to come and make his case in

:11:44.:11:50.

Scotland. Honestly, I think first of all those who will vote no, before

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you tick or cross that box you need to think why is this referendum

:11:55.:11:59.

happening in the first place. A big part of that is no-one asked voted

:12:00.:12:09.

for David Cameron, yet he is bringing in all those policies. You

:12:10.:12:14.

say about the bedroom tax, that is a big part of it. That is why we are

:12:15.:12:20.

trying to break-away. Over here on the no side. You heard David Cameron

:12:21.:12:25.

say a no vote is a vote for change. Do you think that you would have had

:12:26.:12:30.

more success than you perhaps have had on the doorsteps if you had

:12:31.:12:33.

known there was going to be so much change offered in the event of a no

:12:34.:12:44.

vote. The lady in the front? Absolutely. I believe more power is

:12:45.:12:48.

excellent and listened to the debate and the experts. Would you like him

:12:49.:12:52.

to have come up with the idea of more change for Scotland earlier on?

:12:53.:12:56.

I dare say it should have come sooner, but better late than ever.

:12:57.:13:07.

Let's look at the day's events with Stratton STRACHLT

:13:08.:13:13.

Despite this hoopla a critical number of Scots haven't made up

:13:14.:13:19.

their minds. The late surge in the campaign has been to Alex Salmond,

:13:20.:13:21.

out at Edinburgh airport this morning with pro-independence

:13:22.:13:23.

business men, hoping, with three days to go to clinch wavers voters.

:13:24.:13:34.

-- wavering voters. I know how closely you followed the debate. If

:13:35.:13:39.

you remember two weeks ago in the middle of the BBC debate a dramatic

:13:40.:13:48.

revelation from Alastair Darling that Scotland could use the pound.

:13:49.:13:50.

If you follow the debate. We do follow the debate, it is ambiguous

:13:51.:13:54.

if they will let you have a currency union, the undecided want to know?

:13:55.:13:59.

You should have taken Alastair Darling's place, you are doing

:14:00.:14:06.

better than he is. Darling did say they could use the pound in limited

:14:07.:14:13.

form without a currency union. The SNP is very upbeat today. Working

:14:14.:14:18.

hard to make sure those who are pro-independence show up for

:14:19.:14:21.

independence. Even to the west of Edinburgh centre, not an SNP

:14:22.:14:25.

stronghold, the yes vote think their offer of freedom on Friday is

:14:26.:14:31.

infectious. Today the yes campaign pitched their stall next to the

:14:32.:14:36.

office of a local MP. Why are you not got one window with no and one

:14:37.:14:41.

with yes. I don't believe in yes. I believe it will damage. It is not

:14:42.:14:45.

about you. It is actually. About It is about the people you represent

:14:46.:14:49.

which are your constituents. Where's the no people on the street? They

:14:50.:14:55.

are off delivering all round the city. Yeah right. Who do you mean

:14:56.:15:02.

right. Why have you such little respect for the other side of the

:15:03.:15:07.

campaign. Why are you doing? Why is that your reaction immediately, it

:15:08.:15:10.

is intimidation. You know, you have got the van and car parked outside

:15:11.:15:21.

the office, you have got 20 people who are basing themselves 10ms from

:15:22.:15:24.

the office. Can Scotland return to normal after this? It has to. Look

:15:25.:15:26.

at the exchange you had with that lady there, it is not common fare

:15:27.:15:32.

for you? Things will calm down after the vote is under way. It has to be

:15:33.:15:37.

a priority for everyone either side of the campaign to put Scotland back

:15:38.:15:40.

together, this has been hugely devisive. Tension in Edinburgh this

:15:41.:15:45.

morning, and here in the SNP stronghold of Dundee, the two sides

:15:46.:15:52.

are also shrugging it out. Both teams believe it will be the

:15:53.:15:54.

undecided voters that swing the poll on Thursday. Some pollsters think if

:15:55.:15:57.

everybody who currently hasn't made up their mind went over to the yes

:15:58.:16:04.

team, that could be enough to decide things for Alex Salmond. But the no

:16:05.:16:07.

camp think they are also having some traction. It is just their vote is

:16:08.:16:11.

quieter. The pro-union campaigners also mobilised its ground troops.

:16:12.:16:15.

Some of those undecided voters are people who have never voted before,

:16:16.:16:20.

or rarely. With no previous voting record this group of people is quite

:16:21.:16:24.

unpredictable. We have been asked, I think, either way to vote without

:16:25.:16:27.

having concrete evidence of what way it is going to go. You are an

:16:28.:16:31.

undecided voter? That is exactly what I am. I'm going to turn up on

:16:32.:16:36.

the day and see whether the sun is shining and I will look for signs,

:16:37.:16:41.

if there is a thistle in the clouds. You sound forgive me,

:16:42.:16:44.

if there is a thistle in the clouds. and informed about things and you

:16:45.:16:47.

are really going to go in and put your finger in the wind and go for

:16:48.:16:52.

it? That is basically it. This is a decision that could break up our

:16:53.:16:55.

family of nations and rip Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom.

:16:56.:17:00.

And we must be very clear. There is no going back from this. No rerun.

:17:01.:17:08.

This is a once and for all decision. If Scotland votes yes, the UK will

:17:09.:17:13.

split and we will go our separate ways forever. David Cameron made his

:17:14.:17:19.

last plea. He fears voters think they can vote yes, change minds

:17:20.:17:25.

later. Both camps have the same message, "this is it".

:17:26.:17:32.

Allegra Stratton reporting, we apologise if you heard any wearing

:17:33.:17:35.

swearing and noises off the way, there is a tiny number of Broughty

:17:36.:17:38.

Ferry out there with nothing better to do.

:17:39.:17:57.

I'm joined by Michelle Mone, you run an international business, Martin

:17:58.:17:59.

Gilbert controls billions of pounds for his clients says there is no

:18:00.:18:02.

reason to think that an independent Scotland will work do you agree with

:18:03.:18:05.

that? No. If you are buying a business you do a due diligence

:18:06.:18:07.

process, and if they don't answer all the questions you wouldn't buy

:18:08.:18:13.

the company. We are sitting here right now, less than 60 hours to go,

:18:14.:18:16.

and we still don't know any of the answers that we have been asking for

:18:17.:18:19.

the last few years. And these are important questions. I know you are

:18:20.:18:21.

going to have less corporation tax to pay? We don't know if we are

:18:22.:18:32.

going to have the pound, the currency that is a really big

:18:33.:18:37.

problems. The other thing Kirsty is, this is a really important question.

:18:38.:18:40.

Food banks in Scotland, I -- I really agree with food banks, we do

:18:41.:18:42.

children's charities and I know more about it than I have ever have. If

:18:43.:18:50.

we are talking about food banks are a problem, food prices which all the

:18:51.:18:53.

supermarkets have said. Not all of them, Morrisons and Tesco's have

:18:54.:18:56.

not? If you look at Tesco's website, and in Ireland, their prices are

:18:57.:19:03.

higher. That is a fact. If there is a yes vote, your headquarters are

:19:04.:19:11.

here but your manufacturing is in Sri Lanka, you said a yes vote would

:19:12.:19:14.

mean you would move your company out of Scotland, will you do that? I

:19:15.:19:17.

didn't say the company, I said me personally. I'm so nervous about the

:19:18.:19:20.

way things are going, this is a terrible, terrible time for

:19:21.:19:22.

business. We don't own the Gustafsson, the oil, we don't know

:19:23.:19:25.

any of these really fundamental questions. We are stronger together.

:19:26.:19:30.

Changes will be made and we will be even more. Y fundamental questions.

:19:31.:19:41.

We are stronger together. Changes will be made and we will be even

:19:42.:19:44.

more. In the face of the business question there is nothing the yes

:19:45.:19:47.

campaign can do because there is so much uncertainty? There is so much

:19:48.:19:50.

uncertainty, that is the paradigm, you have to factor that in. In terms

:19:51.:19:58.

of young people you won't have the 40,000 young people that leave here

:19:59.:20:00.

every year. And certainly we are going to attend to that. And also I

:20:01.:20:05.

think that is missing from this whole debate is actually the little

:20:06.:20:10.

guy, and the little gal, they are missing. What I have discovered in

:20:11.:20:19.

Dundee alone, for example in the last four weeks, over gone on to the

:20:20.:20:22.

social register, who have never been on the social register in Dundee.

:20:23.:20:23.

This is about disenfranchisement, this is about people who have been

:20:24.:20:28.

passed by. People who have been passed by consistent Governments.

:20:29.:20:31.

That is really everything as far as I'm concerned. Do you think there is

:20:32.:20:40.

a disenchantment with political parties. I know you are a Labour

:20:41.:20:42.

supporter, are you a yes supporter because you wish to see a Labour

:20:43.:20:44.

Government and independent Scotland? I'm a yes supporter because I want

:20:45.:20:49.

to see an independent Scotland. I'm a yes supporter because I want a new

:20:50.:20:52.

beginning and because I want to see an even field. Will you come back

:20:53.:20:56.

and live in Scotland? I will try to get a house here! The other thing is

:20:57.:21:02.

we have just come out of a recession, a really hard recession,

:21:03.:21:05.

business is just starting to recover. I fear this will put us in

:21:06.:21:11.

a depresidential. I honestly do believe it from a business point of

:21:12.:21:15.

view, listen to what the banks and analysis are saying, this is

:21:16.:21:19.

dangerous, really dangerous. One of the big unknowns is Europe, that is

:21:20.:21:23.

a big area of contention, it is whether Scotland would automatically

:21:24.:21:35.

be within the EU. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to suggest that

:21:36.:21:37.

Europe would want to exclude oil-rich, fish-rich and energy-rich

:21:38.:21:39.

Scotland, and the negotiations can be speedily sorted. Is it as

:21:40.:21:42.

straight forward as that? How easy would it be for Scotland to

:21:43.:21:46.

become an E United States, there is no precedent or provision within EU

:21:47.:21:50.

law to tell us what happens. Scotland would need a change in the

:21:51.:21:54.

European treaters in order to join. And every one of the union's 28

:21:55.:22:06.

members needs to agree to it, giving each member an effective veto. In

:22:07.:22:08.

its favour Scotland is already compliant with EU law, so

:22:09.:22:10.

negotiations in that sense would not be that difficult. However However,

:22:11.:22:14.

things get tricky when it comes to renegotiating some of the UK's

:22:15.:22:18.

historic benefits. Britain has a unique opt-out when it comes to the

:22:19.:22:22.

euro, Scottish nationalists would like that opt-out to apply to them,

:22:23.:22:32.

it might not. And the UK gets a substantial rebate from Europe, no

:22:33.:22:39.

guarantees there. Spain, Belgium and Italy all have their own domestic

:22:40.:22:42.

worries over independence, they may oppose Scotland's accession. The yes

:22:43.:22:47.

campaign see no great problem with negotiation, but an independent

:22:48.:22:52.

Scotland would still have to cross some unchartered waters in any

:22:53.:22:59.

voyage to separate EU membership. I'm joined from Madrid by the

:23:00.:23:08.

minister for Europe in Spanish affairs, Ingo Mendez De Vigo. If

:23:09.:23:10.

there is a yes vote in Scotland, what is the likelihood of Scotland

:23:11.:23:13.

being in the EU? Good evening from Madrid. Well, it is crystal clear

:23:14.:23:20.

that any partner member-state that leaves the member-state is out of

:23:21.:23:24.

the European Union. If they want to apply again, they would have to

:23:25.:23:39.

follow the procedure of article 49 of the treaties. That means the

:23:40.:23:41.

status of candidates should be granted to the new candidates. This

:23:42.:23:44.

decision has to be taken unanimously. Then it has to go into

:23:45.:23:52.

a negotiation of the 35 chanters, at the end of this negotiation there is

:23:53.:23:55.

also a vote, anonymously. If it is granted, it has to go to the

:23:56.:24:05.

European Parliament, where a vote is taken by the absolute majority of

:24:06.:24:08.

the members. If at the end of the process, a new vote is granted, it

:24:09.:24:12.

needs to go through the process of the 28 member states. When I was

:24:13.:24:15.

listening to myself, I was saying a lot of "ifs", more "ifs "that a poem

:24:16.:24:21.

by Kipling. Tell me, would Spain block's

:24:22.:24:29.

Scotland's entry? This is not a question of other member states, you

:24:30.:24:32.

have to follow the rules and the rules are very clear. You have to

:24:33.:24:41.

comply to article 49 and follow the a member-state of the European

:24:42.:24:43.

Union, following the process I just mentioned with a lot of steps taking

:24:44.:24:49.

the unanimity, it is a process that takes more or less five years. The

:24:50.:24:59.

newly-elected President of the Commission, Mr Juncker said, as a

:25:00.:25:01.

candidate now to become a member of the European Union, he said before

:25:02.:25:03.

the European Parliament it wouldn't happen in the next five years. There

:25:04.:25:07.

you have a hint of how long it might take. Tell me, do you think that in

:25:08.:25:17.

order to be allowed Trent or to negotiate even from within, Scotland

:25:18.:25:20.

would have to commit to using the euro? The euro is not just another

:25:21.:25:25.

policy of the union, there is a name of all member states to share -- an

:25:26.:25:37.

aim of all member states to share the common currency, and there is an

:25:38.:25:54.

exception, the United Kingdom has an opt-out granted back in 1995 to go

:25:55.:25:57.

out of the euro. But I don't see in the future for any member-state to

:25:58.:26:02.

be granted that possibility, if any member-state or candidate puts that

:26:03.:26:04.

on the table, I can tell you that all member states will look at it

:26:05.:26:06.

very carefully. Isn't part of the reason that you

:26:07.:26:09.

appear to be doubleful about Scotland's membership of the

:26:10.:26:12.

European Union the fact that you have got your own problems in Spain

:26:13.:26:14.

with Catalonia, and actually you do not want any encouragement of any

:26:15.:26:20.

accession. The thing is Scotland is already a nation. Yet you mention in

:26:21.:26:24.

Spain and the Scottish are completely different, for historical

:26:25.:26:33.

reasons and legal constitutional issues. Westminster allowed this

:26:34.:26:37.

referendum to take place. We respect it, in Spain the constitutional

:26:38.:26:42.

legal framework we have, and the self-determination was rejected by

:26:43.:26:46.

Spanish courts. If such a referendum should take place in Spain, first we

:26:47.:26:49.

have to revise the Spanish constitution.

:26:50.:26:53.

Thank you very much for joining us this evening.

:26:54.:27:03.

The SNP's Stewart Hosie, you heard it there. Five years absolute

:27:04.:27:10.

minimum. The the final question on Catalonia, when Spanish ministers

:27:11.:27:14.

intervene in the Scottish debate, it is less to do with Scottish

:27:15.:27:29.

self-Dell more to do with Spain. It only takes one country to block you?

:27:30.:27:34.

If he was talking about article 49, the other side of the argument for

:27:35.:27:36.

the honourary Director General of the European Commission has said

:27:37.:27:41.

that article 48 is the law under which this would happen, negotiation

:27:42.:27:44.

from within a treaty change. There is no provision to expel a state or

:27:45.:27:47.

part of a state from the EU, there is absolutely no provision to remove

:27:48.:27:50.

the rights of European citizens and we are all union citizens. You are

:27:51.:27:56.

not an entity on your own, you are part of the United Kingdom, this is

:27:57.:27:59.

part of the decision? When we become independent. If you become

:28:00.:28:00.

independent? Both countries will inherit the treaty obligations. We

:28:01.:28:04.

have always accepted there have to be negotiation, of course, but done

:28:05.:28:26.

under article 48 from win, not article 49 as a new entrant.

:28:27.:28:28.

Even if negotiations are under way, and I understand that negotiations

:28:29.:28:38.

appear to be under way with different countries, that is indeed

:28:39.:28:40.

what Alex Salmond said. The idea of 18 months is fanciful, isn't it.

:28:41.:28:42.

What you are fighting on all sides if you get a yes vote. You are

:28:43.:28:46.

fighting to use sterling, on the other hand you are fighting not to

:28:47.:28:52.

have the euro, you will be fighting an awful lot of battles won't you?

:28:53.:29:04.

The currency issue is very straight forward. Scotland's currency is as

:29:05.:29:06.

much as anyone els. For a whole variety of technical reasons, the

:29:07.:29:24.

?60 billion of imports from England, we will be using sterling. We are

:29:25.:29:26.

catagoric about that. And George Osborne is catagoric that you won't

:29:27.:29:28.

be? George is engage anything a grotesque bluff. As part of the euro

:29:29.:29:31.

you have to be part of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for two years, to be

:29:32.:29:34.

part of the ERM is voluntary, no-one in the Scottish Government is

:29:35.:29:36.

volunteering Scotland down In terms of the campaign, by and large it has

:29:37.:29:39.

been good-natured, but it hasn't always been good-natured, I wonder

:29:40.:29:42.

it is likely the vote will be very tight. There will be a very large

:29:43.:29:44.

number of people in Scotland, a minority, but a large minority, who

:29:45.:29:47.

will be unhappy with this vote? I have to say the way I would

:29:48.:29:49.

characterise this has been extraordinary. Hundreds of thousands

:29:50.:29:51.

of people engadgeted in politics, in communities the length and breadth.

:29:52.:29:53.

Country, in a way they have never, ever been before. Yes, there have

:29:54.:29:56.

been cross words, of course there have, it has been a long tiring

:29:57.:29:58.

debate. On the yes side we believe the vote will be a vote of national

:29:59.:30:08.

self-confidence, not just yes voters but everybody in Scotland. I think

:30:09.:30:10.

the First Minister was right to talk about team Scotland, to bring

:30:11.:30:12.

everybody together after the yes vote, driving a single direction.

:30:13.:30:16.

Many a slipped twixt cut and lip. We are not there yet. Partly because

:30:17.:30:21.

the vote is so energised and we know the turnout will be high. It is

:30:22.:30:24.

extraordinary, isn't it, there will be a divided country? I don't think

:30:25.:30:47.

it will be divided. We have 97% of the people on the electoral

:30:48.:31:14.

register, that is fantastic for democracy. It is an 80% first

:31:15.:31:17.

turnout, that is brilliant. We need to keep everyone engaged in

:31:18.:31:19.

democracy. I don't believe to the characterisation that the yes vote

:31:20.:31:21.

will lead to the division everyone is suggesting. The man with the

:31:22.:31:24.

jacket on, how do you feel. What do you think about the he divide? I

:31:25.:31:27.

think it has been devisive. There has been a lot of energy, we spoke

:31:28.:31:30.

to one in five people in Dundee east, and people are really engaged,

:31:31.:31:32.

but it is really about people concerned about the uncertainties to

:31:33.:31:35.

actually, they want to go forward with a political union, and it would

:31:36.:31:40.

be a really smooth transition into Europe, but no monetary union with

:31:41.:31:43.

Europe, but actually they don't want the political union with the UK but

:31:44.:31:47.

the monetary with the UK. People are really, it is, and if there is some

:31:48.:31:52.

friction on the doorstep, but there is a small minority I think there

:31:53.:32:02.

will be some unpleasantness, and there needs to be a bit of work of

:32:03.:32:05.

coming together. There needs to be a bit of work. What we are hearing is

:32:06.:32:08.

there is no doubt there is more uncertainty than certainty? With

:32:09.:32:11.

independence Scotland will have the certainty of all decisions being

:32:12.:32:35.

taken in Scotland. You don't know about currency or Europe? The

:32:36.:32:37.

currency will be sterling. (Laughter) We have explained what

:32:38.:32:39.

will happen in terms of the European Union. Expect and respect someone

:32:40.:32:43.

from another political party talking up uncertainty, that is political

:32:44.:32:46.

posturing, we will have the result in two days time. We are going to

:32:47.:32:48.

return to the referendum in a moment. First to another dominant

:32:49.:32:56.

story today, the brother of the aid worker David Haines, said he was

:32:57.:33:03.

most enthusiastic in his humanitarian road. 30 countries

:33:04.:33:05.

pledged to help Iraq combat IS with all they can. And it seems to have

:33:06.:33:08.

strengthened David Cameron's resolve to reopen British air strikes. What

:33:09.:33:11.

did the Paris summit actually achieve? It is a good question,

:33:12.:33:15.

there is this grand strategy that President Obama has talked about. A

:33:16.:33:32.

coalition the so called Islamic State. Last week there was a big

:33:33.:33:39.

meeting of the gulf and some Arab countries, next week the thing is

:33:40.:33:42.

supposed to be completed in New York on the fringes of the UN General

:33:43.:33:44.

Assembly. The Paris meeting was meant to be about dividing up who

:33:45.:33:47.

does what. So far the indications we have is people putting caveat, the

:33:48.:33:49.

French saying they would do air strikes only if there is a UN

:33:50.:33:59.

Security Council resolution to enable it. That doesn't seem likely.

:34:00.:34:01.

The Iraqi President chairing the events said they don't need foreign

:34:02.:34:04.

boots on the ground and not necessarily any for moren air

:34:05.:34:06.

strikes apart from the US ones that have begun. A lot of people saying

:34:07.:34:10.

what they won't do rather than what they will bring to the

:34:11.:34:20.

US-orchestrated coalition. Tell me why it was very important to notice

:34:21.:34:23.

the people who weren't there today as the people who were? Interesting

:34:24.:34:26.

ly the Russians were there, as part of this French attempt to try some

:34:27.:34:30.

how to get Security Council blessing for this. But the Iranians weren't

:34:31.:34:48.

there and the Turk were not there. This is critical in various

:34:49.:34:52.

respects. Iran is clearly a very influential country in Iraq, and

:34:53.:34:52.

they have a close connection with the Syrian Government. President

:34:53.:34:54.

Obama talk about excellenting air strikes into Syria, Iran has said

:34:55.:34:57.

there is no way to support that, Russia has also indicated they would

:34:58.:36:14.

not support that. The Turk, You can measure that Scotland with less than

:36:15.:36:19.

the population. Contributes 15% of the best and widely cited papers.

:36:20.:36:24.

Scotland has particular strength in the biological sciences. Especially

:36:25.:36:32.

here at dined university. For example Dundee University. The

:36:33.:36:39.

average medical searcher has 28% more impact than a world researcher,

:36:40.:36:45.

in Scotland it is 4 a %. Our influence is on the molecular and

:36:46.:36:53.

cellular basis of life. We do that to create understanding but also to

:36:54.:36:58.

turn the research findings into benefits for human society.

:36:59.:37:02.

Including improvements in health and designing and developing new drugs

:37:03.:37:07.

to treat a variety of diseases. Scotland's strength is not just

:37:08.:37:10.

high-end research, but training people in high-tech skills. Our

:37:11.:37:14.

games courses, what we are trying to do is make sure the students learn

:37:15.:37:18.

by doing. It is practice-based learning, and work in spaces such as

:37:19.:37:22.

we are at the moment, we use our industry contacts to make sure that

:37:23.:37:29.

people from industry come in and mentor the students. Dave Jones who

:37:30.:37:33.

came out with Lemmings and Grand Theft Auto was a student I taught in

:37:34.:37:38.

this space we're in at the moment. Scotland is good at linking business

:37:39.:37:42.

to study. In 2012 Scottish universities counted for 20% of the

:37:43.:37:46.

private income raised by spin-offs from universities. That is twice the

:37:47.:37:52.

UK average rate. Spin-offs have already created about 4,700 jobs in

:37:53.:37:55.

Scotland. That success explains why it is that

:37:56.:38:01.

even the yes campaign want Scotland to remain a common research area

:38:02.:38:06.

with the rest of the UK. One thing scientists agree on, whatever

:38:07.:38:09.

happens this week it would be a very bad idea to break up the union on

:38:10.:38:13.

science. But there is a bit of a problem. There are actually some

:38:14.:38:16.

strong incentives for politicians and some scientists not to play

:38:17.:38:21.

ball. First of all if you are a politician in London, why would you

:38:22.:38:26.

fund research in Dundee? It is a foreign country now? Second, if you

:38:27.:38:30.

are an English university you might not actually deal that much with

:38:31.:38:34.

Scotland. Only 5% of English research papers have a Scottish

:38:35.:38:39.

co-author. But because Scotland gets more money per head for research, if

:38:40.:38:42.

you can push Scotland out a little bit, you might get more money for

:38:43.:38:48.

your own university. Depending on how the independence

:38:49.:38:51.

talks went, a new Scottish state could need to make up for, for a

:38:52.:38:59.

start, ?360 million in lost UK-wide grants and depending on how EU

:39:00.:39:03.

negotiations went, ?60 million from Europe. Science is expensive and it

:39:04.:39:08.

is no sure thing either. New Zealand suffers a seepage of talent because

:39:09.:39:16.

young people leave to do PhDs or other research work, from New

:39:17.:39:20.

Zealand to Australia and they tend not to come back. Something similar

:39:21.:39:23.

happens with spin-outs from the universities. Because the New

:39:24.:39:27.

Zealand economy doesn't have enough venture capital to support

:39:28.:39:30.

second-stage development of those. So they tend, if they are

:39:31.:39:33.

successful, to end up going to Australia to get further funding.

:39:34.:39:36.

That is a risk which Scotland would have to face. Scottish universities

:39:37.:39:44.

are great, but the road to a high-tech future is very far from

:39:45.:39:47.

clear. With me now are two Dundee science

:39:48.:39:58.

success stories, we have a programme and games creator, creating Lemmings

:39:59.:40:04.

and Grand Theft Auto, we also have Stephen Watson.

:40:05.:40:09.

Doreen Cantrell, what do you think would be the impact of the yes vote

:40:10.:40:13.

on the research programmes you are involved in? The impact of the yes

:40:14.:40:17.

vote would create a lot of uncertainty. Because there have been

:40:18.:40:20.

no clear answers as to whether or not the Scottish Government will

:40:21.:40:24.

make up the funding gap that was mentioned in the previous interview.

:40:25.:40:28.

But can I give you the idea of the scale of the funding gap. In

:40:29.:40:36.

2011/2012, the University of Dundee was awarded ?120 million of research

:40:37.:40:40.

funding, only ?20 million came from the Scottish Government. The

:40:41.:40:44.

remainder came from UK source, it is not clear whether the Scottish

:40:45.:40:47.

Government will have the capacity to make up that difference. And do you

:40:48.:40:51.

think that then you would lose good researchers and scientists?

:40:52.:40:56.

Absolutely. Any degree of uncertainty would create a vacuum

:40:57.:41:01.

and there would be a loss of key talent. Just to interrupt just now

:41:02.:41:10.

to say we apologise for the swearing in the background, it is beyond our

:41:11.:41:14.

control. ? 20 million coming from the

:41:15.:41:19.

Scottish Government, ?100 million coming from elsewhere, what Doreen

:41:20.:41:21.

Cantrell is saying, in an independent Scotland you couldn't be

:41:22.:41:23.

sure of that funding, you couldn't be sure it would go to another

:41:24.:41:28.

university, and subsequently some of our best scientists could go

:41:29.:41:31.

elsewhere? I couldn't disagree more. The big picture is the research

:41:32.:41:37.

council UK spends ?3 billion a year annually, Scotland contributes to

:41:38.:41:43.

that through its tax receipt, approximately 10% annually in tax

:41:44.:41:46.

receipts and receives 11% of the funding. The funding differential is

:41:47.:41:52.

only ?30 million, the Scottish Government is paying its way and

:41:53.:41:56.

this small gap can be made way for in the independent Scotland. I would

:41:57.:42:00.

challenge that in the life sciences arena, that is the cornerstone in

:42:01.:42:05.

the Scottish economy, it is the hope for future development, in the life

:42:06.:42:12.

sciences area in membered a -- medical research which is why we are

:42:13.:42:17.

leading. Surely people want to come to you for being world leaders not

:42:18.:42:20.

whether or not you are in the United Kingdom? That is true, but there is

:42:21.:42:24.

no precedent for this degree of cross-border funding. One other

:42:25.:42:30.

Dundee was phenomenally successful was the gaming, all the

:42:31.:42:33.

undergraduates that did gaming and you came out of it to do Grand Theft

:42:34.:42:39.

Auto and Lemmings, would you woo it matter to you and Rock Star the

:42:40.:42:43.

company you work for, whether or not Scotland was independent? I don't

:42:44.:42:54.

think so. (Hauting Shouting in the background) We suffered from brain

:42:55.:43:04.

drain in the 1980s and 1990, and we got funding from the Government and

:43:05.:43:07.

that stopped. It was critical that you got money from the Scottish

:43:08.:43:11.

Government, presumably what you would have to to look at is in an

:43:12.:43:15.

independent Scotland the claims on the Government would be so

:43:16.:43:19.

phenomenal, do you think that the whole computer gaming progress would

:43:20.:43:27.

be at the top or bottom of the pile? I don't really know. It is going to

:43:28.:43:31.

be a bigger pot to give out from any way. What Doreen is saying is people

:43:32.:43:35.

would leave? I don't think so, Dundee has shown that. We have got a

:43:36.:43:40.

large computer game base in Dundee. It started very small with the brain

:43:41.:43:45.

drain and it has grown. You know people that would leave? I know

:43:46.:43:50.

people that would leave. 20-30% of my staff are funded by salaries paid

:43:51.:43:54.

by UK-based charities and research councils. We do not know whether

:43:55.:43:58.

that funding will continue. I wish we did. Is there any way to talk

:43:59.:44:02.

yourselves down though? What I'm most concerned about is if the vote

:44:03.:44:07.

is yes, that scientists who should be focussing on solving medical

:44:08.:44:11.

problems that will change global health practices will be focussing

:44:12.:44:16.

on trying to maintain funding, to maintain what we already have. I see

:44:17.:44:20.

no advantage whatsoever. And if I can make a point. The pots, there is

:44:21.:44:25.

no evidence the pot size will change. The Scottish Government has

:44:26.:44:31.

had the freedom to increase research funding in Scottish universities

:44:32.:44:34.

under devolution as it stands, they have not. Again I disagree. First we

:44:35.:44:40.

could refer to Sir David Carter a leading luminary of the no campaign,

:44:41.:44:46.

on radio Scotland he stated the Scottish Government fully recognises

:44:47.:44:50.

the importance of bioresearch to the Scottish universities and the

:44:51.:44:55.

economy. A recent pot of 1,000 academic, and the vast majority, the

:44:56.:45:03.

difference was more than 13% were saying. Which number is this 13%. It

:45:04.:45:09.

was 67% were saying that actually there would be a problem with

:45:10.:45:14.

funding? So again I think that once the data has been scrutinised and

:45:15.:45:22.

Academics For Yes is publishing evidence. They need to get on with

:45:23.:45:28.

it? It will be out in 36 hours, in the hands of any academic we will

:45:29.:45:32.

provide the data. How do you make sure in an independent Scotland you

:45:33.:45:37.

keep creative people, particularly in cities like Dundee where you have

:45:38.:45:40.

the reputation? Provide the jobs and the work. Dundee's academic sector

:45:41.:45:46.

turns out graduates, they go to companies and spin off into their

:45:47.:45:49.

own companies and Dundee's gaming sector has done that for decades

:45:50.:45:54.

now, it is a huge centre for gaming because of this cycle you get coming

:45:55.:45:57.

from universities. Thank you all very much indeed. Following the

:45:58.:46:01.

weekend polls showing the votes are on a knife edge, some big-star

:46:02.:46:05.

supporters of the union, led by Eddie Izzard and Dan Snow, scrambled

:46:06.:46:11.

a rally in Trafalgar Square urging Scotland not to go.

:46:12.:46:15.

Everyone is in limbo, how is the big vote going to affect life north and

:46:16.:46:22.

south of the border? There is a piper here in Trafalgar Square most

:46:23.:46:28.

day, perhaps the tourist who is want the full UK experience as it is now,

:46:29.:46:34.

but only on these shores for a matter of hours. Under the slogan

:46:35.:46:39.

"let's stay together", a group of well known personalities took to the

:46:40.:46:43.

square to voice their support for the union. What I'm going to do is a

:46:44.:46:50.

bit of light-weight scaremongering. If Scotland enters the EU on its

:46:51.:46:55.

own, here is a warning to Scotland, The Proclaimers will have to walk

:46:56.:47:04.

800kms. And back. A total of 1600kms. It is a nightmare vision of

:47:05.:47:10.

the future. Our message today is that we believe and we hope that the

:47:11.:47:17.

Scottish people hear is "let's stay together". We want to say with the

:47:18.:47:21.

people in Dundee we love sharing a country with them, it is the 21st

:47:22.:47:26.

century, it is global problems, we have corporations that can ruin our

:47:27.:47:29.

economies, we need to work together on these things and not reinstate a

:47:30.:47:35.

border that was hacked out by two French-speaking warlords in the

:47:36.:47:39.

early Middle Ages. Should you be up over the border where people have a

:47:40.:47:43.

vote? I have been up over the border. And the Scottish people say

:47:44.:47:47.

why should I listen to an English person saying that. People in

:47:48.:47:51.

Scotland can't sense what people outside Scotland feel. It is

:47:52.:47:54.

difficult to sense that, we thought we would do that. Before there was a

:47:55.:47:58.

United States, a U nations, before there was a united this, that and

:47:59.:48:01.

the other, there was a United Kingdom. An Irishman with an

:48:02.:48:06.

honourary knighthood had this say too. If they are fed up with

:48:07.:48:10.

Westminster, we are fed up with Westminster, the MPs are fed up, it

:48:11.:48:15.

is not really working, we do need a new compact, but we need to work

:48:16.:48:18.

that out together. There is no point going off in a huff. "We are

:48:19.:48:30.

family", "we say no" say the crowd. Trafalgar Square with the great and

:48:31.:48:33.

good. I have great good in the audience. Looking at Eddie Izzard

:48:34.:48:39.

there, the line was "please don't go", if the tenor had been that from

:48:40.:48:43.

the beginning would it have changed minds? No, I think if the devo max

:48:44.:48:48.

had been on the paper a year ago a lot more people would have gone for

:48:49.:48:52.

that. I would just like to tell the English people down in Trafalgar

:48:53.:48:55.

Square, we are actually not going anywhere, we will still here. Who

:48:56.:49:00.

else thinks that devo max if it had been in the pan at the would paper n

:49:01.:49:10.

-- on the paper it would have been different? I think things like

:49:11.:49:13.

federalism can be tried but you need to vote no. What will happen in the

:49:14.:49:18.

next few days of the campaign? The problem with more powers is it has

:49:19.:49:20.

to get through Westminster. We already know large numbers of Tory

:49:21.:49:24.

MPs will block it and there will be no appetite whatsoever for

:49:25.:49:26.

constitutional discussion if there is a no vote. How much is this a

:49:27.:49:31.

disillusionment generally with Westminster politics, how it is

:49:32.:49:35.

actually prosecuted? Not really. The gentleman in the middle with the

:49:36.:49:41.

anorack? The Government policy is not to give Scotland further powers.

:49:42.:49:47.

We can't be saying federalism is there. The reason federalism was not

:49:48.:49:52.

on the ballot is they thought it would block the thing, now it is not

:49:53.:49:56.

good they may vote yes. We have a backbench MP who happens to be a

:49:57.:49:59.

former Prime Minister saying there will be no powers, he's not a

:50:00.:50:02.

Government minister or in power, where is the guarantee there will be

:50:03.:50:05.

any discussion of further powers if there is a no vote. Some of the no

:50:06.:50:08.

side here, and there is no guarantee, is there a guarantee of

:50:09.:50:12.

more powers if you vote no? I think there is a guarantee of more powers.

:50:13.:50:16.

The Labour Party is the party of devolution, we wouldn't have a

:50:17.:50:19.

Scottish Parliament without it. I think in terms of Westminster, I

:50:20.:50:23.

think there is English people, where I grew up there is Northern Irish

:50:24.:50:30.

people and Welsh people who are disillusioned too, the voting yes is

:50:31.:50:35.

an optimisim, we can change the United Kingdom for everybody living

:50:36.:50:38.

in it not just the northern half of it. It is too late for me after all

:50:39.:50:45.

these years of a Conservative Government, it is time to go for

:50:46.:50:48.

hope rather than the fear that we have been getting through the

:50:49.:50:51.

television, through the media, every single day. That's enough for me.

:50:52.:51:00.

That's just about it from Broughty Ferry, we are packing up the

:51:01.:51:08.

Newsnight tent and pitching in the only Conservative redoubt in

:51:09.:51:20.

Dumfries and Galloway. Seeing us out is Tommy Smith from the Scottish

:51:21.:51:26.

National Jazz Orchestra, playing us out with Culludon Moor Suit.

:51:27.:51:40.

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