15/09/2014 Newsnight


Live from the heartland of the Yes vote, a Scotland referendum special. With Kirsty Wark.

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Good evening, there are fewer than 60 hours to go until the polling


stations open for the referendum on Scottish independence, and the fight


for every last vote is on. We're in the Newsnight tent in Broughty Ferry


in the SNP constituency of donity East, with an audience of mainly yes


supporter, tomorrow we will be mainly with no voters in the only


Tory seat in Scotland. In the yes camp Cox and the no camp, Mone and


local MP, Stewart Hosie, we will be speaking to David Cameron before the


final vote. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to say the EU would


reject an independent Scotland, we will hear from Spain's Europe


Minister who says it is not. Welcome to Broughty Ferry, there is


a seemingly unquenchable thirst for debate for this the referendum home


straight. Much of it is good tempered, but not all of it. Allegra


Stratton has been on the streets of Dundee, the streets of will will and


Desperate Dan. She's also in the capital and with Alex Salmond. We


will hear from her in a moment. Bryan Cox, do you believe it has


been an energising experience for democracy. In the last two or three


weeks the gears have shifted massively? Absolutely. It is a


movement, and movement for social democracy. The winner in all this is


social democracy. We're the envy of the world, the world is looking at


us slightly agog at what is going on in Scotland. And I'm proud of our


country and all the people here. We have shown an example, which has


been sadly missing in the world. I'm really excited about it. Michelle,


it is interesting, because in the last general election, the turnout


in Scotland was about 64%, it could be over 80% now, could you imagine


that happening? Never, I think what it is bringing out is that passion


from either side, no-one can question any Scot, we are all


passionate about Scotland, whether you are in the yes camp or the no


camp. This Team Scotland that Alex Salmond keeps coming out with, I was


quite hurt by it, because he was making out people like me, who are


yes, wanting us to stay and grow together, he was making me feel as


if you're not passionate about Scotland, I'm exceptionally


passionate about Scotland, I have grown my businesses here, I live


here, I grew up in the East End of Glasgow and I built my companies


there. I'm Team Scotland and in the yes camp. You're not, in the no


camp! That's wonderful live on television we have a convert.


Magnificent, thank you Michelle. That's wonderful. That brings me to


a point, yes and no people can have a cuddle. By and large the campaign


has been pretty good natured, but it is all not good natured. I wonder if


there has been a negative (shouting in the background) Someone is out in


Broughty Ferry. Is there negatively? You get head bangers. We just had


one here now. You do get head bangers, but on the whole it is, you


know the civility is unbelievable, you know. And everybody is worried


about what is going to happen afterwards, will we come together


again? Of course we will. That is who we are, that is what


distinguishes us as a nation. We have got probably two-thirds yes


voters here and a third no vote, just coming to the question voters


here, did you feel that you have been energised for the first time in


political discourse, yes the gentleman with the red jacket and


the tartan tie, can we hear from you? My yes vote isn't necessarily a


vote for any particular policy, it is a vote for democracy, it is a


vote for the energy that exists right across Scotland, yes and no.


I'm voting yes because there is something new and significant


happening in our country at the moment. Just coming round to the no


camp here, is there about, vote no if you don't know? Are you very


worried about the uncertainties over Europe, which we will talk about


later, or the currency, what are your major concerns, somebody there?


Yes? The gentleman with the blue shirt what are your major concerns?


One of the concerns in the City, which relates to Bryan Cox is really


the effects on our universities. We have two eminent universities in the


city, I think independence would create difficulties for the


financing of the eminent research teams for instance in biosciences.


So I find it interesting that Bryan's the rector of the


university, but he's supporting independence. We will talk about the


wonderful position that Dundee in the world is as a global research


centre in the moment. First the temperature of the political


rhetoric is rising. Tonight David Cameron delivered a warning to


voters, in front of an audience of Conservative activists in Aberdeen,


he sent forth an urgent message. Don't take your anger with the


austerity or the bedroom tax out in your vote, because there is no going


back to the union after Thursday if there is a yes vote.


Minister, whatever happens in the next few day, the significant


constitutional change on the way, that is hardly what you planned? No,


I think it is right to have a referendum on whether Scotland wants


to stay part of the United Kingdom. But I always said right from the


start of this campaign, if Scotland voted no to separation the rest of


the United Kingdom would say yes to further devolution. It has been good


in the campaign that we have been able to say more about that I think


that is a positive. No, doesn't mean no change. It looks last-minute in


terms of the timetable and detail. You were the Prime Minister that


agreed the referendum but kept devo max off the paper, if it is a yes


will you take personal responsibility? On the question of


having more than one question, I think it was right to have one


question. If Scotland wants more devolution and I think it should


have t you have to ask the prior question, "do you want to stay in


the United Kingdom? ". That wasn't just my view it was all the major


leaders, to settle the question of separation and then devolution. In


this campaign the individual parties have set out their proposals and


been strikingly similar, so it is. Without that on the ballot paper,


many believe that has increased the chances of a question vote, you


might be the Prime Minister that presides over the break up of a


union that is more than 300 years old. How will you feel if that is


your legacy? I feel passionately about our United Kingdom. I


desperately want our country to stay together. I very much hope that


Scotland will vote no and that will trigger further devolution. But I'm


a democrat. I was faced by a situation where one part of our


UFSHGS kingdom voted for a Government, the Scottish National


Party Government, that wanted a referendum I think the right


decision was to allow that referendum, rather than to fight T I


think if I had said no, you can't have a referendum, I think Scottish


independence would be closer today than it is. But you may have


presided over an extraordinary set of constitutional events. How will


you feel if you are the Prime Minister from the Conservative and


Unionist Party who sees that nation break up? I have been very clear, I


have said it would break my heart to see the United Kingdom split apart,


and a few days before polling day, I say that again on your programme.


That is not what I seek. I want our United Kingdom to stay together. I


believe we are stronger, safer, better off in this dangerous world


of instability and problems and threats, the most recent of which we


can see from Syria and Iraq. But I'm a democrat, and in the end it is for


the people of Scotland to choose, that is the way we do things in


these islands. Do you wish that you personally, and the union campaign,


had made more effort early on? I believe I fought this campaign very


hard. This is something like my 11th major intervention floe this A


campaign of more than two years? It is not campaign of the Conservative


Party against the Scottish National Party, it is all those parties, and


trade unions and volumity bodies and charities,


trade unions and volumity bodies and nothing to do with politics who want


to stay part of the of nations and those who want to leave. There will


be more powers for Scotland, should there will be more powers for


England too, an English parliament? I don't think we are remotely at


that stage. The debate has begun in your


being The key thing that people need to see this week of all weeks. Do


you think we are witnessing something fundamentally, not just


with the rise of the SNP, but also in terms of UKIP. People seem to be


turning away or lost faith of the 50 years of politics that had been


settled. Are we seeing something fundamentally? I think what we are


seeing is when you have had a difficult and painful recession, and


British families have been through very difficult times, many people


have lost their jobs. They are now getting them back again. But you


have seen pay not going up. Living standards squeezed. When you see


those things people want change and answers. What we have to do is


explain we can get those answers through a United Kingdom Government.


We are coming out of the bad times. We have created two million new


jobs. We are seeing the country including Scotland recover and


recover strongly and now is not the time to break our country apart. You


believe this is partly the product of a recession? As I say


anti-politics feeling that you see, not just in Britain, but other


countries, is people wanting change, people wanting leaders that


understand their aspirations and they want these things fixed. That


is what political leaders have to realise and act on. David Cameron


talking to Laura, we're here in Broughty Ferry with an audience


mainly of yes supporter, but no campaigners too. You heard David


Cameron say there that this is his 11th foray into this debate into


Scotland. It felt to some people that the cavalry was coming, surely


he has every right as Prime Minister to come and make his case in


Scotland. Honestly, I think first of all those who will vote no, before


you tick or cross that box you need to think why is this referendum


happening in the first place. A big part of that is no-one asked voted


for David Cameron, yet he is bringing in all those policies. You


say about the bedroom tax, that is a big part of it. That is why we are


trying to break-away. Over here on the no side. You heard David Cameron


say a no vote is a vote for change. Do you think that you would have had


more success than you perhaps have had on the doorsteps if you had


known there was going to be so much change offered in the event of a no


vote. The lady in the front? Absolutely. I believe more power is


excellent and listened to the debate and the experts. Would you like him


to have come up with the idea of more change for Scotland earlier on?


I dare say it should have come sooner, but better late than ever.


Let's look at the day's events with Stratton STRACHLT


Despite this hoopla a critical number of Scots haven't made up


their minds. The late surge in the campaign has been to Alex Salmond,


out at Edinburgh airport this morning with pro-independence


business men, hoping, with three days to go to clinch wavers voters.


-- wavering voters. I know how closely you followed the debate. If


you remember two weeks ago in the middle of the BBC debate a dramatic


revelation from Alastair Darling that Scotland could use the pound.


If you follow the debate. We do follow the debate, it is ambiguous


if they will let you have a currency union, the undecided want to know?


You should have taken Alastair Darling's place, you are doing


better than he is. Darling did say they could use the pound in limited


form without a currency union. The SNP is very upbeat today. Working


hard to make sure those who are pro-independence show up for


independence. Even to the west of Edinburgh centre, not an SNP


stronghold, the yes vote think their offer of freedom on Friday is


infectious. Today the yes campaign pitched their stall next to the


office of a local MP. Why are you not got one window with no and one


with yes. I don't believe in yes. I believe it will damage. It is not


about you. It is actually. About It is about the people you represent


which are your constituents. Where's the no people on the street? They


are off delivering all round the city. Yeah right. Who do you mean


right. Why have you such little respect for the other side of the


campaign. Why are you doing? Why is that your reaction immediately, it


is intimidation. You know, you have got the van and car parked outside


the office, you have got 20 people who are basing themselves 10ms from


the office. Can Scotland return to normal after this? It has to. Look


at the exchange you had with that lady there, it is not common fare


for you? Things will calm down after the vote is under way. It has to be


a priority for everyone either side of the campaign to put Scotland back


together, this has been hugely devisive. Tension in Edinburgh this


morning, and here in the SNP stronghold of Dundee, the two sides


are also shrugging it out. Both teams believe it will be the


undecided voters that swing the poll on Thursday. Some pollsters think if


everybody who currently hasn't made up their mind went over to the yes


team, that could be enough to decide things for Alex Salmond. But the no


camp think they are also having some traction. It is just their vote is


quieter. The pro-union campaigners also mobilised its ground troops.


Some of those undecided voters are people who have never voted before,


or rarely. With no previous voting record this group of people is quite


unpredictable. We have been asked, I think, either way to vote without


having concrete evidence of what way it is going to go. You are an


undecided voter? That is exactly what I am. I'm going to turn up on


the day and see whether the sun is shining and I will look for signs,


if there is a thistle in the clouds. You sound forgive me,


if there is a thistle in the clouds. and informed about things and you


are really going to go in and put your finger in the wind and go for


it? That is basically it. This is a decision that could break up our


family of nations and rip Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom.


And we must be very clear. There is no going back from this. No rerun.


This is a once and for all decision. If Scotland votes yes, the UK will


split and we will go our separate ways forever. David Cameron made his


last plea. He fears voters think they can vote yes, change minds


later. Both camps have the same message, "this is it".


Allegra Stratton reporting, we apologise if you heard any wearing


swearing and noises off the way, there is a tiny number of Broughty


Ferry out there with nothing better to do.


I'm joined by Michelle Mone, you run an international business, Martin


Gilbert controls billions of pounds for his clients says there is no


reason to think that an independent Scotland will work do you agree with


that? No. If you are buying a business you do a due diligence


process, and if they don't answer all the questions you wouldn't buy


the company. We are sitting here right now, less than 60 hours to go,


and we still don't know any of the answers that we have been asking for


the last few years. And these are important questions. I know you are


going to have less corporation tax to pay? We don't know if we are


going to have the pound, the currency that is a really big


problems. The other thing Kirsty is, this is a really important question.


Food banks in Scotland, I -- I really agree with food banks, we do


children's charities and I know more about it than I have ever have. If


we are talking about food banks are a problem, food prices which all the


supermarkets have said. Not all of them, Morrisons and Tesco's have


not? If you look at Tesco's website, and in Ireland, their prices are


higher. That is a fact. If there is a yes vote, your headquarters are


here but your manufacturing is in Sri Lanka, you said a yes vote would


mean you would move your company out of Scotland, will you do that? I


didn't say the company, I said me personally. I'm so nervous about the


way things are going, this is a terrible, terrible time for


business. We don't own the Gustafsson, the oil, we don't know


any of these really fundamental questions. We are stronger together.


Changes will be made and we will be even more. Y fundamental questions.


We are stronger together. Changes will be made and we will be even


more. In the face of the business question there is nothing the yes


campaign can do because there is so much uncertainty? There is so much


uncertainty, that is the paradigm, you have to factor that in. In terms


of young people you won't have the 40,000 young people that leave here


every year. And certainly we are going to attend to that. And also I


think that is missing from this whole debate is actually the little


guy, and the little gal, they are missing. What I have discovered in


Dundee alone, for example in the last four weeks, over gone on to the


social register, who have never been on the social register in Dundee.


This is about disenfranchisement, this is about people who have been


passed by. People who have been passed by consistent Governments.


That is really everything as far as I'm concerned. Do you think there is


a disenchantment with political parties. I know you are a Labour


supporter, are you a yes supporter because you wish to see a Labour


Government and independent Scotland? I'm a yes supporter because I want


to see an independent Scotland. I'm a yes supporter because I want a new


beginning and because I want to see an even field. Will you come back


and live in Scotland? I will try to get a house here! The other thing is


we have just come out of a recession, a really hard recession,


business is just starting to recover. I fear this will put us in


a depresidential. I honestly do believe it from a business point of


view, listen to what the banks and analysis are saying, this is


dangerous, really dangerous. One of the big unknowns is Europe, that is


a big area of contention, it is whether Scotland would automatically


be within the EU. Alex Salmond says it is ridiculous to suggest that


Europe would want to exclude oil-rich, fish-rich and energy-rich


Scotland, and the negotiations can be speedily sorted. Is it as


straight forward as that? How easy would it be for Scotland to


become an E United States, there is no precedent or provision within EU


law to tell us what happens. Scotland would need a change in the


European treaters in order to join. And every one of the union's 28


members needs to agree to it, giving each member an effective veto. In


its favour Scotland is already compliant with EU law, so


negotiations in that sense would not be that difficult. However However,


things get tricky when it comes to renegotiating some of the UK's


historic benefits. Britain has a unique opt-out when it comes to the


euro, Scottish nationalists would like that opt-out to apply to them,


it might not. And the UK gets a substantial rebate from Europe, no


guarantees there. Spain, Belgium and Italy all have their own domestic


worries over independence, they may oppose Scotland's accession. The yes


campaign see no great problem with negotiation, but an independent


Scotland would still have to cross some unchartered waters in any


voyage to separate EU membership. I'm joined from Madrid by the


minister for Europe in Spanish affairs, Ingo Mendez De Vigo. If


there is a yes vote in Scotland, what is the likelihood of Scotland


being in the EU? Good evening from Madrid. Well, it is crystal clear


that any partner member-state that leaves the member-state is out of


the European Union. If they want to apply again, they would have to


follow the procedure of article 49 of the treaties. That means the


status of candidates should be granted to the new candidates. This


decision has to be taken unanimously. Then it has to go into


a negotiation of the 35 chanters, at the end of this negotiation there is


also a vote, anonymously. If it is granted, it has to go to the


European Parliament, where a vote is taken by the absolute majority of


the members. If at the end of the process, a new vote is granted, it


needs to go through the process of the 28 member states. When I was


listening to myself, I was saying a lot of "ifs", more "ifs "that a poem


by Kipling. Tell me, would Spain block's


Scotland's entry? This is not a question of other member states, you


have to follow the rules and the rules are very clear. You have to


comply to article 49 and follow the a member-state of the European


Union, following the process I just mentioned with a lot of steps taking


the unanimity, it is a process that takes more or less five years. The


newly-elected President of the Commission, Mr Juncker said, as a


candidate now to become a member of the European Union, he said before


the European Parliament it wouldn't happen in the next five years. There


you have a hint of how long it might take. Tell me, do you think that in


order to be allowed Trent or to negotiate even from within, Scotland


would have to commit to using the euro? The euro is not just another


policy of the union, there is a name of all member states to share -- an


aim of all member states to share the common currency, and there is an


exception, the United Kingdom has an opt-out granted back in 1995 to go


out of the euro. But I don't see in the future for any member-state to


be granted that possibility, if any member-state or candidate puts that


on the table, I can tell you that all member states will look at it


very carefully. Isn't part of the reason that you


appear to be doubleful about Scotland's membership of the


European Union the fact that you have got your own problems in Spain


with Catalonia, and actually you do not want any encouragement of any


accession. The thing is Scotland is already a nation. Yet you mention in


Spain and the Scottish are completely different, for historical


reasons and legal constitutional issues. Westminster allowed this


referendum to take place. We respect it, in Spain the constitutional


legal framework we have, and the self-determination was rejected by


Spanish courts. If such a referendum should take place in Spain, first we


have to revise the Spanish constitution.


Thank you very much for joining us this evening.


The SNP's Stewart Hosie, you heard it there. Five years absolute


minimum. The the final question on Catalonia, when Spanish ministers


intervene in the Scottish debate, it is less to do with Scottish


self-Dell more to do with Spain. It only takes one country to block you?


If he was talking about article 49, the other side of the argument for


the honourary Director General of the European Commission has said


that article 48 is the law under which this would happen, negotiation


from within a treaty change. There is no provision to expel a state or


part of a state from the EU, there is absolutely no provision to remove


the rights of European citizens and we are all union citizens. You are


not an entity on your own, you are part of the United Kingdom, this is


part of the decision? When we become independent. If you become


independent? Both countries will inherit the treaty obligations. We


have always accepted there have to be negotiation, of course, but done


under article 48 from win, not article 49 as a new entrant.


Even if negotiations are under way, and I understand that negotiations


appear to be under way with different countries, that is indeed


what Alex Salmond said. The idea of 18 months is fanciful, isn't it.


What you are fighting on all sides if you get a yes vote. You are


fighting to use sterling, on the other hand you are fighting not to


have the euro, you will be fighting an awful lot of battles won't you?


The currency issue is very straight forward. Scotland's currency is as


much as anyone els. For a whole variety of technical reasons, the


?60 billion of imports from England, we will be using sterling. We are


catagoric about that. And George Osborne is catagoric that you won't


be? George is engage anything a grotesque bluff. As part of the euro


you have to be part of the Exchange Rate Mechanism for two years, to be


part of the ERM is voluntary, no-one in the Scottish Government is


volunteering Scotland down In terms of the campaign, by and large it has


been good-natured, but it hasn't always been good-natured, I wonder


it is likely the vote will be very tight. There will be a very large


number of people in Scotland, a minority, but a large minority, who


will be unhappy with this vote? I have to say the way I would


characterise this has been extraordinary. Hundreds of thousands


of people engadgeted in politics, in communities the length and breadth.


Country, in a way they have never, ever been before. Yes, there have


been cross words, of course there have, it has been a long tiring


debate. On the yes side we believe the vote will be a vote of national


self-confidence, not just yes voters but everybody in Scotland. I think


the First Minister was right to talk about team Scotland, to bring


everybody together after the yes vote, driving a single direction.


Many a slipped twixt cut and lip. We are not there yet. Partly because


the vote is so energised and we know the turnout will be high. It is


extraordinary, isn't it, there will be a divided country? I don't think


it will be divided. We have 97% of the people on the electoral


register, that is fantastic for democracy. It is an 80% first


turnout, that is brilliant. We need to keep everyone engaged in


democracy. I don't believe to the characterisation that the yes vote


will lead to the division everyone is suggesting. The man with the


jacket on, how do you feel. What do you think about the he divide? I


think it has been devisive. There has been a lot of energy, we spoke


to one in five people in Dundee east, and people are really engaged,


but it is really about people concerned about the uncertainties to


actually, they want to go forward with a political union, and it would


be a really smooth transition into Europe, but no monetary union with


Europe, but actually they don't want the political union with the UK but


the monetary with the UK. People are really, it is, and if there is some


friction on the doorstep, but there is a small minority I think there


will be some unpleasantness, and there needs to be a bit of work of


coming together. There needs to be a bit of work. What we are hearing is


there is no doubt there is more uncertainty than certainty? With


independence Scotland will have the certainty of all decisions being


taken in Scotland. You don't know about currency or Europe? The


currency will be sterling. (Laughter) We have explained what


will happen in terms of the European Union. Expect and respect someone


from another political party talking up uncertainty, that is political


posturing, we will have the result in two days time. We are going to


return to the referendum in a moment. First to another dominant


story today, the brother of the aid worker David Haines, said he was


most enthusiastic in his humanitarian road. 30 countries


pledged to help Iraq combat IS with all they can. And it seems to have


strengthened David Cameron's resolve to reopen British air strikes. What


did the Paris summit actually achieve? It is a good question,


there is this grand strategy that President Obama has talked about. A


coalition the so called Islamic State. Last week there was a big


meeting of the gulf and some Arab countries, next week the thing is


supposed to be completed in New York on the fringes of the UN General


Assembly. The Paris meeting was meant to be about dividing up who


does what. So far the indications we have is people putting caveat, the


French saying they would do air strikes only if there is a UN


Security Council resolution to enable it. That doesn't seem likely.


The Iraqi President chairing the events said they don't need foreign


boots on the ground and not necessarily any for moren air


strikes apart from the US ones that have begun. A lot of people saying


what they won't do rather than what they will bring to the


US-orchestrated coalition. Tell me why it was very important to notice


the people who weren't there today as the people who were? Interesting


ly the Russians were there, as part of this French attempt to try some


how to get Security Council blessing for this. But the Iranians weren't


there and the Turk were not there. This is critical in various


respects. Iran is clearly a very influential country in Iraq, and


they have a close connection with the Syrian Government. President


Obama talk about excellenting air strikes into Syria, Iran has said


there is no way to support that, Russia has also indicated they would


not support that. The Turk, You can measure that Scotland with less than


the population. Contributes 15% of the best and widely cited papers.


Scotland has particular strength in the biological sciences. Especially


here at dined university. For example Dundee University. The


average medical searcher has 28% more impact than a world researcher,


in Scotland it is 4 a %. Our influence is on the molecular and


cellular basis of life. We do that to create understanding but also to


turn the research findings into benefits for human society.


Including improvements in health and designing and developing new drugs


to treat a variety of diseases. Scotland's strength is not just


high-end research, but training people in high-tech skills. Our


games courses, what we are trying to do is make sure the students learn


by doing. It is practice-based learning, and work in spaces such as


we are at the moment, we use our industry contacts to make sure that


people from industry come in and mentor the students. Dave Jones who


came out with Lemmings and Grand Theft Auto was a student I taught in


this space we're in at the moment. Scotland is good at linking business


to study. In 2012 Scottish universities counted for 20% of the


private income raised by spin-offs from universities. That is twice the


UK average rate. Spin-offs have already created about 4,700 jobs in


Scotland. That success explains why it is that


even the yes campaign want Scotland to remain a common research area


with the rest of the UK. One thing scientists agree on, whatever


happens this week it would be a very bad idea to break up the union on


science. But there is a bit of a problem. There are actually some


strong incentives for politicians and some scientists not to play


ball. First of all if you are a politician in London, why would you


fund research in Dundee? It is a foreign country now? Second, if you


are an English university you might not actually deal that much with


Scotland. Only 5% of English research papers have a Scottish


co-author. But because Scotland gets more money per head for research, if


you can push Scotland out a little bit, you might get more money for


your own university. Depending on how the independence


talks went, a new Scottish state could need to make up for, for a


start, ?360 million in lost UK-wide grants and depending on how EU


negotiations went, ?60 million from Europe. Science is expensive and it


is no sure thing either. New Zealand suffers a seepage of talent because


young people leave to do PhDs or other research work, from New


Zealand to Australia and they tend not to come back. Something similar


happens with spin-outs from the universities. Because the New


Zealand economy doesn't have enough venture capital to support


second-stage development of those. So they tend, if they are


successful, to end up going to Australia to get further funding.


That is a risk which Scotland would have to face. Scottish universities


are great, but the road to a high-tech future is very far from


clear. With me now are two Dundee science


success stories, we have a programme and games creator, creating Lemmings


and Grand Theft Auto, we also have Stephen Watson.


Doreen Cantrell, what do you think would be the impact of the yes vote


on the research programmes you are involved in? The impact of the yes


vote would create a lot of uncertainty. Because there have been


no clear answers as to whether or not the Scottish Government will


make up the funding gap that was mentioned in the previous interview.


But can I give you the idea of the scale of the funding gap. In


2011/2012, the University of Dundee was awarded ?120 million of research


funding, only ?20 million came from the Scottish Government. The


remainder came from UK source, it is not clear whether the Scottish


Government will have the capacity to make up that difference. And do you


think that then you would lose good researchers and scientists?


Absolutely. Any degree of uncertainty would create a vacuum


and there would be a loss of key talent. Just to interrupt just now


to say we apologise for the swearing in the background, it is beyond our


control. ? 20 million coming from the


Scottish Government, ?100 million coming from elsewhere, what Doreen


Cantrell is saying, in an independent Scotland you couldn't be


sure of that funding, you couldn't be sure it would go to another


university, and subsequently some of our best scientists could go


elsewhere? I couldn't disagree more. The big picture is the research


council UK spends ?3 billion a year annually, Scotland contributes to


that through its tax receipt, approximately 10% annually in tax


receipts and receives 11% of the funding. The funding differential is


only ?30 million, the Scottish Government is paying its way and


this small gap can be made way for in the independent Scotland. I would


challenge that in the life sciences arena, that is the cornerstone in


the Scottish economy, it is the hope for future development, in the life


sciences area in membered a -- medical research which is why we are


leading. Surely people want to come to you for being world leaders not


whether or not you are in the United Kingdom? That is true, but there is


no precedent for this degree of cross-border funding. One other


Dundee was phenomenally successful was the gaming, all the


undergraduates that did gaming and you came out of it to do Grand Theft


Auto and Lemmings, would you woo it matter to you and Rock Star the


company you work for, whether or not Scotland was independent? I don't


think so. (Hauting Shouting in the background) We suffered from brain


drain in the 1980s and 1990, and we got funding from the Government and


that stopped. It was critical that you got money from the Scottish


Government, presumably what you would have to to look at is in an


independent Scotland the claims on the Government would be so


phenomenal, do you think that the whole computer gaming progress would


be at the top or bottom of the pile? I don't really know. It is going to


be a bigger pot to give out from any way. What Doreen is saying is people


would leave? I don't think so, Dundee has shown that. We have got a


large computer game base in Dundee. It started very small with the brain


drain and it has grown. You know people that would leave? I know


people that would leave. 20-30% of my staff are funded by salaries paid


by UK-based charities and research councils. We do not know whether


that funding will continue. I wish we did. Is there any way to talk


yourselves down though? What I'm most concerned about is if the vote


is yes, that scientists who should be focussing on solving medical


problems that will change global health practices will be focussing


on trying to maintain funding, to maintain what we already have. I see


no advantage whatsoever. And if I can make a point. The pots, there is


no evidence the pot size will change. The Scottish Government has


had the freedom to increase research funding in Scottish universities


under devolution as it stands, they have not. Again I disagree. First we


could refer to Sir David Carter a leading luminary of the no campaign,


on radio Scotland he stated the Scottish Government fully recognises


the importance of bioresearch to the Scottish universities and the


economy. A recent pot of 1,000 academic, and the vast majority, the


difference was more than 13% were saying. Which number is this 13%. It


was 67% were saying that actually there would be a problem with


funding? So again I think that once the data has been scrutinised and


Academics For Yes is publishing evidence. They need to get on with


it? It will be out in 36 hours, in the hands of any academic we will


provide the data. How do you make sure in an independent Scotland you


keep creative people, particularly in cities like Dundee where you have


the reputation? Provide the jobs and the work. Dundee's academic sector


turns out graduates, they go to companies and spin off into their


own companies and Dundee's gaming sector has done that for decades


now, it is a huge centre for gaming because of this cycle you get coming


from universities. Thank you all very much indeed. Following the


weekend polls showing the votes are on a knife edge, some big-star


supporters of the union, led by Eddie Izzard and Dan Snow, scrambled


a rally in Trafalgar Square urging Scotland not to go.


Everyone is in limbo, how is the big vote going to affect life north and


south of the border? There is a piper here in Trafalgar Square most


day, perhaps the tourist who is want the full UK experience as it is now,


but only on these shores for a matter of hours. Under the slogan


"let's stay together", a group of well known personalities took to the


square to voice their support for the union. What I'm going to do is a


bit of light-weight scaremongering. If Scotland enters the EU on its


own, here is a warning to Scotland, The Proclaimers will have to walk


800kms. And back. A total of 1600kms. It is a nightmare vision of


the future. Our message today is that we believe and we hope that the


Scottish people hear is "let's stay together". We want to say with the


people in Dundee we love sharing a country with them, it is the 21st


century, it is global problems, we have corporations that can ruin our


economies, we need to work together on these things and not reinstate a


border that was hacked out by two French-speaking warlords in the


early Middle Ages. Should you be up over the border where people have a


vote? I have been up over the border. And the Scottish people say


why should I listen to an English person saying that. People in


Scotland can't sense what people outside Scotland feel. It is


difficult to sense that, we thought we would do that. Before there was a


United States, a U nations, before there was a united this, that and


the other, there was a United Kingdom. An Irishman with an


honourary knighthood had this say too. If they are fed up with


Westminster, we are fed up with Westminster, the MPs are fed up, it


is not really working, we do need a new compact, but we need to work


that out together. There is no point going off in a huff. "We are


family", "we say no" say the crowd. Trafalgar Square with the great and


good. I have great good in the audience. Looking at Eddie Izzard


there, the line was "please don't go", if the tenor had been that from


the beginning would it have changed minds? No, I think if the devo max


had been on the paper a year ago a lot more people would have gone for


that. I would just like to tell the English people down in Trafalgar


Square, we are actually not going anywhere, we will still here. Who


else thinks that devo max if it had been in the pan at the would paper n


-- on the paper it would have been different? I think things like


federalism can be tried but you need to vote no. What will happen in the


next few days of the campaign? The problem with more powers is it has


to get through Westminster. We already know large numbers of Tory


MPs will block it and there will be no appetite whatsoever for


constitutional discussion if there is a no vote. How much is this a


disillusionment generally with Westminster politics, how it is


actually prosecuted? Not really. The gentleman in the middle with the


anorack? The Government policy is not to give Scotland further powers.


We can't be saying federalism is there. The reason federalism was not


on the ballot is they thought it would block the thing, now it is not


good they may vote yes. We have a backbench MP who happens to be a


former Prime Minister saying there will be no powers, he's not a


Government minister or in power, where is the guarantee there will be


any discussion of further powers if there is a no vote. Some of the no


side here, and there is no guarantee, is there a guarantee of


more powers if you vote no? I think there is a guarantee of more powers.


The Labour Party is the party of devolution, we wouldn't have a


Scottish Parliament without it. I think in terms of Westminster, I


think there is English people, where I grew up there is Northern Irish


people and Welsh people who are disillusioned too, the voting yes is


an optimisim, we can change the United Kingdom for everybody living


in it not just the northern half of it. It is too late for me after all


these years of a Conservative Government, it is time to go for


hope rather than the fear that we have been getting through the


television, through the media, every single day. That's enough for me.


That's just about it from Broughty Ferry, we are packing up the


Newsnight tent and pitching in the only Conservative redoubt in


Dumfries and Galloway. Seeing us out is Tommy Smith from the Scottish


National Jazz Orchestra, playing us out with Culludon Moor Suit.


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