16/09/2014 Newsnight

This programme has flashing images s.

Tonight live from Scotland, a noisy end to a long campaign.

Ed Miliband is forced to bane done his walk about as chaos breaks out

on the trail. Who has won this ground war? We ask Alastair

Campbell, how would the world view us without Scotland. David Grossman

goes looking for the rarest of creatures, the Scottish story. Here

it is, the office of the last Conservative MP in Scotland. And the

Scots and Gordies. If we rebuild the Roman wall and join up with the

Scots, we will become the affluent south. Chris Donald wants the

north-east to join Scotland. Good evening, tonight with two days

of campaigning to go, we are in the shadow of St Andrew's church and the

market town of Moffat. This constituency has what no other

constituency has, a Scottish Tory MP. How powerful have the voices

here been to the unionists. It may feel like the campaign has been

going on forever. Here is proof you are right. The first debate about

Scottish devolution took place 40 years ago. What would those voices

have made of the claims and counter claims today, today the future of

the NHS became the topic. Can either offer a manifesto that can be

delivered. We will ask the studio audience in a minute and we will

hear from Allegra Stratton about the credibility gap. First to Laura

Kuensberg with the latest polls. You would have to have a blindfold

on and fingers in your ears not to walk around and not realise that

something is happening in Scotland. This h been tangible as a campaign

more than in recent times W it has come a volatility and intensity that

has made it hard to predict. Three new polls tonight all of which

suggest that no to independence is narrowly in the lead on 52 and yes

to a new and different country is just behind on 48. That, however,

will not allow the unionist side to breathe easy, with these polls come

two big fat caveats. They can't hope to begin to capture the new voters

who have registered, perhaps as many as a million by some estimate, and

the extraordinary turnout expected by all the pundits. Maybe as much as

90%. The polls are not certain, in a way that we might normally consider

them. But what might make the unionist side feel a bit easier

tonight? Sleep a bit more restfully after everything that has in recent

days is one very influential press baron. A certain Rupert Murdoch has

come out in the Scottish Sun, not for independence, which he had been

flirting with, but instead with a rather gruesome front page, mocking

up Alastair Darling and Alex Salmond in X Factor and Britain's Got

Talents photos and saying it is up to you Scotland. Politicians are all

too aware this will be won vote by vote. Even with two days campaigning

there is still a lot of hard work to do. A lot could change.

Our political editor has been on the stump, tracking their every move.

He once held power across all of Britain, but today the future of the

United Kingdom seemed to rest in this plan's pledge to hand some of

those powers away. David Cameron now this plan's pledge to hand some of

won't be seen in Scotland until after the referendum. The pro-union

push has been left in the hands of the locals.

The three leaders of the main UK parties made it absolutely clear

that there is now a timetable for more powers for the Scottish

Parliament, that Scottish Parliament will be permanent and valued as part

of the UK constitution, that Scotland will always be involved and

engaged in the discussions about the future of the UK constitution. Some

50 hours to go, no time for a novice and not time for novel ideas either,

just the deal that Gordon Brown believes he brokered.

This morning your special adviser said that over the last year you

have wanted to talk to Ed Miliband and David Cameron about your ideas

and they haven't picked up the phone, did that happen? I spoke to

Ed Miliband a great deal. I have no issue. And David Cameron, has he not

listened? I have been putting proposals and wrote a book about

proposals for reform about the constitution. Did David Cameron

listen to you sufficiently? They have now looked at the proposals in

my book, today there is this letter in the Daily Record, a Scottish

newspaper, last week there was an agreement on a timetable what has

happened is all the parties have come together. A slightly lower key

event down the road. To many people Charley Kennedy is the cavalry, is

that right? No, I have been called a lot of things in my time, but that

is a first. Whatever happens on Friday there is more powers going to

Hollyrood, if it is going to be a meaningful institution, someone like

you should want to get stuck in? How flattering. Behrami are having to

use tter -- Better Together have to use characters like Charley Kennedy.

They took to the Daily Record to set out the powers they will give to the

Scottish people. They said it last week and now they feel they have to

set it out in indelible ink. Trust in Westminster's politicians is also

on trial on Thursday. We saw the pledge you signed today, a last

desperate move to hold the Labour vote together? The Labour leader

answered questions, but as campaigners of all colours encircled

him and the media, he had to be ushered out.

This was once a Labour heartland, indeed it was once a Labour shrine.

Clyde Bank in Glasgow, where industrial strive in the 20s made

the Labour Party. Yes campaigners tell us it is not an affluence area,

something pollsters agree points towards a yes vote. Front page of

the Daily Record has the three Westminster leaders talking about

the powers? We are sick of the powers and the leaders, look at the

state the country is in. We are fed up with the empty promises. If you

had more powers would you change the country? Why not have more powers

when we is can have our own power, we could have our own constitution,

this is our time. This is our town. We followed them for half an hour,

they are very optimistic on Thursday it is a yes vote. They say the

promise this morning of more powers from the three Westminster party

leaders won't make a bit of difference. The only guaranteed way

of getting more powers for Scotland, the powers we need to protect our

public service, create jobs make sure we never again get Tory

Governments we don't vote for is to vote yes, to keep control of the

future of this country where it is now, in our own hands. If we vote no

we hand control of the future of Scotland straight back to the

Westminster establishment and have to cross our fingers hoping for some

crumbs from the Westminster table in the form of a new power here or

there. That is not good enough, if we vote yes we have control of the

powers we have here in Scotland. Tonight senior figures in the no

camp are confident. Try telling it to this lot.

Allegra Stratton with that report. As you can see we have a live

audience here in Moffat. Last night, if you watched the show you remember

we had more yes than no. Tonight to balance it out we have more no than

yes and a few undecided scattered inbetween. We will have a show of

hands and get thoughts on the way along. Someone who describes himself

as British, Scottish and Yorkshire, in that order, and knows how to

organise a ground war is Alastair Campbell, and we have Jeanne

Freeman, former adviser to Jack McConnell, who promisingly describes

herself as opinionated, good to have you here. You know what a good

campaign looks and feels like from within, was this one? You would have

to say in terms of what you call the ground war the yes campaign has put

together a pretty formidable campaigning machine, you judge it by

the outcome. And the fundamentals are what count. The reason why I do

believe actually that the polls which are drifting back to the no

campaign are going to be proved right, that no probably will win is

a very, very big fundamental questions have not been answered.

That is why you have so many undeciders. They are to me, a lot of

them are people who are looking for a reason to vote yes, and they

haven't been won over. Any lawyers here will know there is a Scottish

verdict called "not proven", I think the case for independence has not

been proven, but the risks of rep separation have been proven and that

is why Alex Salmond's momentum has stalled. The report suggests that

the money the yes campaign was spent on the ground, and the no spent it

on the think tanks, the currency focus groups, and actually got the

issues right, do you accept that? I hope the no campaign didn't spend

any money on the focus group that told them to run that first ad, that

most women in Scotland found astonishingly patronising, I hope

they didn't waste their money on that. I think that the no examine is

a top-down run campaign, it is largely run by the three unionist

parties. Alastair Campbell and I agree on it, the yes campaign is a

grassroots campaign and populated by people who haven't been in politics

before. People not in political parties and doing this all for the

first time. And ran a campaign, some have said of intimidation, that the

no camp has been quieter because they haven't dared admit who they

have been voting for? I think that is a piece of nonsense. Both no and

yes have our own small number of folks who in the olden days would

probably write letters in green ink and are now using this opportunity

to express their frustrations and their annoyance, but the vast bulk

of this campaign, and remember whilst it might be getting a lot of

attention now, it is two years old and it is conducted with remarkable

civility. On either side, would anyone say they felt intimidated by

the way the campaign has been run, just a show of hands. So three

people on the yes campaign, and one on the no campaign. Keep your hand

up if you want to share your views how you felt. No-one, OK. Yes you

have. I had a problem on a doorstep with somebody who took a violent

exception to what I was saying and didn't like the message. You were

spreading the message as a no campaigner? That's right. Has anyone

here lied to a pollster during the course of this campaign. If you were

called up, just raise your hand, I won't go any further, tell me, put

your hand up if you have lied to a pollster about your position?

No-one, that will be interesting. If that is representative then our

polls are true. Alastair Campbell is this the closest battle you have

ever seen? No, I don't think so. You have had, you go back to the Quebec

referendum and others. It has been the most innovating and energised

campaign I have seen, that is to the yes campaign's credit. They have got

this, it is about big questions and fundamental questions. But as I said

earlier, you have to judge a campaign on the outcome. They have

closed the gap. The reason I think why they have been able to build

this formidable ground examine is because -- campaign is the

Westminster parties were slow about it and they have now managed to

bring up the questions about the pound and NATO. Is this more

important to you than the campaigns you ran for Tony Blair, more than

1997 and winning for new Labour? That was a really big thing for us.

As David Cameron said yesterday and lots of the party leaders have said,

long after the leaders that we see on our TV screens today have gone,

this vote on Thursday decides the future of this country and it is

irreversible. I think that is another reason why the undecides

have come back. It is the irreversibility of it, if you are

going to take a decision such as changing the fundamental nature of

your country you have to be sure. So many people are not sure, they don't

know about the pound or Europe, or who will pay for their pensions. You

have done that list already. It is better than talking about some old

advert everyone has forgotten about. From a Labour perspective, you are

pro-independence, when you look at Alex Salmond, is he the future of

the country? I think independence is the future of the country. I'm not

unique as a former Labour supporter, supporting independence. 42% and

rising of Labour supporters are moving to independence. So let me

just finish. How did you lose Labour? The reason for that is

people are angry at Labour in Scotland, they are angry that we

have one in four children in poverty, we have a million people

living in poverty, and Labour has consistently broken promises. That

is why no matter the pledge people will not trust that. Do you accept

that? I STHAEP a lot of people here, and a lot of people in the United

Kingdom. A lot of people in northern towns, in coastal towns and Kent,

people feel hacked off with Westminster politics, it is not just

a Scottish thing. What Alex Salmond is trying to persuade people, this

is unique to Scotland and if you get rid of the UK Government

everything's going to be perfect in Scotland. That is not true. That is

not his argument. It is the politics of grievance the whole time. You

have heard the arguments and probably many times, who here feels

that they can believe the deal that has been set out for them by either

side, whichever side you believe on the table, who feels that they

trust, right, and you are no, so even though it hasn't been spelt out

what will happen to income tax and corporation tax, you don't know, you

are trusting they will offer the right powers or you don't want any

new powers? The parties are offering different things. A specific

timetable has been set out and we know exactly when it is going to

happen. I was going to say the same thing. Let me say, the parties are

going to make different proposals what this referendum has done is it

has got the whole nature of British politics and constitution, how we do

politics on to the agenda for the whole of the UK. What has happened

is with two weeks to go suddenly the parties supporting the union have

started treating this seriously. They were dismissing it right up

until them. You are absolutely right, the three parties have three

different things to offer. We can't possibly say if we vote no we vote

with certainty. You are voting with certainty for fundamental change to

the constitutional change. Labour offers the least of all. If we end

up with the least common denominator it will be flittering around the

edges of what we have already got and not worth the paper it is

written on. Anyone undecided. Can I ask, if you don't mind answering

this, what will change your mind in the next two days? You are going to

vote any way, right. What will change it? I'm looking to hear

arguments that feed what I'm looking for from an independent country. I

think my instinct is for more power, more autonomy, but as a business

person, actually it hasn't been made clear that the situation will

actually help that side of my life. So it is balance between various

different things. What do you all your, British without Scotland? You

wrote very passionately today the order in which you identity? I think

national identity is important for every individual, and it is

changing. You see that in Scotland going around the streets here. I do

feel British, then Scottish, then Yorkshire, and I feel English a

long, long way behind that. And if the United Kingdom, the country that

I live in separates from lots of my family who live here, so my brother

will have a different passport to me, and I just feel that it is, Bill

Clinton has put out a statement tonight and made a fantastic point

were he goes through the issues about the pound, about the fact you

will get more powers, but he makes the wonderful point that Scotland

can show the world that it is possible to have differences with

your neighbours but coexist peacefully. That is a brilliant

explanation. So some are saying the yes campaign is about hating the

English and Bill Clinton is saying something else? What built has said

it is nonsense. I'm talking to Emily here, what is nonsense is the fact

that those of us who support independence are anti-anybody. We

are not the ones wandering around insisting we are patriotic Scots.

Please. Bill Clinton, I agree, with independence we can prove that we

can make the right decisions in Scotland and coexist happily with

our neighbours. Ripping five countries apart, UK, Scotland,

England and Wales and Northern Ireland. This is classic language,

we are not ripping anything. In 48 hours the polls will have closed and

we could be on the brink of the end of the United Kingdom, the five

countries as we know it. It is fair to say that Britannia no longer

rules the waves and hasn't for many decades. But how will the moment be

seen in years to come and what is the rest of the world, looking on

from afar, make of the concept of a new Britain if it happens?

Neighbour, rivals, often enemies, before the Act of Union there was

England and Scotland. As the age of empire dawned, both nations set sail

to conquer the world, England found fertile territory in Virginia,

Scotland's ambitions died after an ill-fated venture to Panama. After

the failure of the new world, Scotland turned to the old enemy and

the union was born. Although Scotland entered into the union from

a position of weakness, the two nations united as equals and the

United Kingdom went on to dominate the globe. The British Empire turned

the map pink, everywhere the British Empire went Scots were in the

vanguard. In India in 1792 Scots made up one in nine in civil

servants and one in three army officers, Glasgow built the ships

that ruled the waves for Britannia. But as the imperial tide turned, and

as Britain's colonies one by one caught independence, some in

Scotland also began to question their continued membership of the

union. Far from seeing themselves as fellow colonialist, they felt

themselves to be living in England's closest colony. By joining its lot

with England, Scotland created the idea of the United Kingdom. If Scots

vote yes on Thursday, without the tether of the original active union,

could other parts of the British Isles feel their ties to the union

also begin to loosen? Shakar Dayal Simon Schama is here,

and Neal Ascherson. A warm welcome to both of you. I wonder if you

shouldn't look at what might happen on Thursday as a natural unwinding

of the British Empire? Well the natural histories of nations are

almost a poetic thing, but they are very, very important. There is no

timetable which goes from infancy to decrepitude, countries renew

themselves. As has been said tonight there is a possible moment of

renewal and re-think what Britain is. That is very important. I want

to say one can wax sentimental about the history of Britain. I'm

unapologetically not a romantic about Britain, but I'm not at all

ashamed about what Britain has accomplished. Your little

introductory session was all about empire, one has an immediate sense

of an imperial culture in aspic. Sort of tiffin, chukka and mounties,

but what this union produced was Adam Smith, David Hume, engineering,

there are great elements of modernist dynamic qualities in our

life that still go on. You either believe today, I think actually,

that you want to live in countries in which you have just one-nation,

by itself, or you are thrilled and excited by the possibility of living

in a country with different, distinct, national cultures that

share the same house. That's what those of us who are not apologetic

about being British want to defend. Is it that sense of empire Neal, you

think people on the independent side are wanting to get away from now?

No, I really don't think it is. I mean it is there. The fact that

people in great liberal newspapers in London can say what is taking

place in Scotland is ethnic chauvinism, the Observer, can you

believe it? If you scratch that underneath it is the relics of

empire thinking. But no, there are much more important things to think

about, which is, you know, what kind of Scotland? I mean the thing about

voting yes for independence is it is not you know that you can produce a

full menu of everything that's going to be done, independence is a

gateway, you go through it, and then when you are through it then you ask

yourself what kind of Scotland? That's what it is about, it is not

about the break ago I way from an empire. I wonder if you think of

nationalism nowadays as a dirty word? I certainly don't think of

Scottish nationalism as a dirty word, it is true there is something

to rejoice in a country which is talking to itself and talking to its

neighbours about its own identity. I think actually the ferocious average

nationalism, nationalisms which are by definition from the beginning

warrior nationalisms and for all the size of the monuments of William

Wallace that is not the case. One of the wonderful things about the

campaign is it has in some way been about a national community. I

actually celebrate that. I speak as an Englishman who is also British,

and also Jewish as well like you, and we like to live, at least I like

to live in a country, I won't presume for you, we like to live in

a community where we have all these different places in our place of

residence. Let me hand this to the audience. How many of you will call

yourself a nationalist? No-one. That is interesting. No-one on the yes

side would say that you feel nationalist. Would you all call

yourself Scottish? Right, OK. Can I ask the same question about empire,

when you think of empire, when I say the word "empire" who thinks of it

with a sense of proud heritage? Can you keep your hand up if you can

tell me why? Sir, you have had your hand up a couple of times, this

gentleman on the yes side at the back. I think it has, the result of

it has put a lot of people across the world together. And I grew up in

Zimbabwe, for example, and feel part of something much bigger than just a

country. It is a global community, if you like. And I think there is

something exciting about that. And when you say it is a global

community but you are voting yes, you are sitting on this side, you

don't see any contradiction in that particularly? I suppose I'm in

favour of unity rather than division and I think we have seen a lot of

division in the world which has brought about a lot of tragic

situations and I have come through one myself. I'm not saying Scotland

is like Zimbabwe, it isn't at all, but I feel very weary of the

uncertainty that may lie in front of us. Are you sure you have a yes

badge on, you made the most eloquent case for no. Are you undecided? It

is a no badge! The empire brought the rule of law to all sorts of

places, which didn't have that and in Moffat we have John McAdam who

invented the modern road surfaces, and he's buried in the churchyard

behind you on the other side of the the high street, that is another

sign of empire, he made it possible to get from A-B. There are empires

of the mind too, not very far from Moffat, there was a statue of the

scary but incredibly important Thomas Carlyle, one of the greatest

historians of the 19th century. Apart from Ruskin and Dicken, Thomas

Carlyle was the most-read Victorian author. Whatever you think of his

extraordinarily foaming wild prose about the French Revolution, Carlyle

said this to industrial Britain, "do not just be a nation of machinery,

have a conscience, think about your Christian heritage". One thing I

think one needs to be unapologetic about, as a union of different

nations in Britain, it is the war we fought with our conscience against

fascism. That was something. When you hear that line, do you hear

somebody who is trying to sort of tug on the heartstrings and remind

you of all that you have been through? Yes I do. I have to say.

Becoming independent isn't done without loss. There is always

something to pay, you know. And there is. It can be something small

like losing a newspaper in a metropolitan language, it can be

something much bigger. For me I have fought in Her Majesty's war, I have

had to kill people on the order of Her Majesty, which I now bitterly

regret. At the same time I still have a deep love for the people I

fought with in the Royal Marines. And when I think you know the flag

will no longer be my flag, it is a stab, but that is the price you pay.

You go through the gate and to live in a better society, it has to be

done. A quote from a former Italian Prime Minister who said it is not

far fetched to compare the consequences of what this would mean

to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Yes it is far fetched.

Let's leave it there. Good try. Who feels that they are already living

in a devolved nation? Who feels for the last 15 years you are already in

a devolved nation, no? Who feels that more devolution, whatever the

outcome is a good thing? More devolution is a good thing, more

powers for Scotland is a good thing. Who doesn't want to see any more

powers with Scotland. OK. I think it is about more powers for everyone.

Not just Scotland. We are talking about the whole of the union, Great

Britain, United Kingdom. So it is powers for everyone not just

Scotland. And that is one of the reasons I'm voting no. And you are

shaking your head there? Yes, because that is you know it is a

noble, old song which has been empty of meaning, we have been there

before and people have constantly tried to say Scotland seems to be

moving away and doing naughty things, so let's make that process

part of a general UK process, and then we will get it under control,

what then happens is nothing. Who are these people? They are parts of

Britain and northern England which really need self-Government, and

they need it in many cases their position is worse than that of

Scotland, much worse, actually. Scotland will have their own

parliament. Does England need a parliament? I think it has to think

about it. If you are putting me on the spot and asking do I think it

would be a good idea, my feeling is yes. Mostly I think that the nature

of Great Britain as a federal state needs to have as vigorous a

discussion as happened in Scotland. Now you are presuming to talk to the

English, Neal. You can't have a federation in which there are 55

million of one partner and five the other. It can't work. Not all the

provinces of Canada have equal population, of course it can work.

The same is true of Switzerland as well. Of course it can work. That is

because there are many, many partners in a federation. Here there

is just three. There is a great deal of freedom and authority and power

in the parts that are federal. Let me say one more thing. Are you

saying whether it is small working together or with more powers it will

always win out over big? No I think the United States with all its

impossible conflicts shows that you can have a big power, providing it

deinvolves a lot of authority in the state it comprises of. It depends on

the quality of big and the quality of small. There is another thing

about federation, a federation is a beautiful thing, but a federation

that is simply hastily invented to head secession, isn't going to last.

I agree with you about that. Doesn't it show if nothing else how quickly

you can effect change if you want to? What does, I'm sorry? This whole

campaign shows how quickly can you change things if you want to? If

there is a no result there has to be a period in which frantic sweaty

speculation settles down into honest detailed discussion of the future of

Britain. That is not a bad thing. Thank you very much indeed. You have

all heard the endangered species, the question is why, what happened,

to the Conservatives who until the 1980s have flourished here. I name

this ship Britannia. The dawn of the new Elizabethan age. When Britannia

was launched on the Clyde, Scotland's Conservatives were

approaching their high water mark. But the following general election

in 1955, the party not only won a majority of Scottish seats, but also

of votes and astonishing achievements. But not perhaps as

Astonishing as when this was brought to Leith not a single seat was held

here by the Conservatives, the party was wiped out. I travelled then with

the new Conservative leader with William Hague, on his mission to

rescue the Conservative Party. How will you revive the party? I

have come to listen not lecture them. The Conservative Party needs

to do a good deal of listening over the coming months. One of the people

he was listening was Malcolm Rifkind, who had just lost his seat,

he told me of his hopes for a swift recovery. 17 years later I visited

Mr Rifkind again to remind him of his previous words and ask why it

hasn't happened, he says the problem is not particularly Conservatism?

People think the political divide is Scotland and England, it is not, it

is north and south. North begins north of the Midlands. At the moment

we have Conservative councillors in Edinburgh, Dundee, Glasgow,

Aberdeen, there is not a single Conservative councillor in

Liverpool, Newcastle or Manchester. The left have been much stronger and

in Scotland that includes the nationalists. In Scotland, in Wales,

in the north of England, the strength of the Tory Party is south

of the Midlands. Scottish Conservatives found one of the most

important cards they held, nationalism, no longer worked well

in a Scottish context, because their brand of nationalism, unionism, was

increasingly even as the antithesis of Scottishness.

A Tory Government in Westminster without a majority in Scotland,

allowed the other parties to further portray the Conservatives as an

alien force. The narrative in the 1980s and it is worth rembering in

1979 one in three Scots voted for Thatcher's Conservative Party, she

was never as unpopular as mythology now dictates. But throughout the 80s

Labour primarily and also the SNP argued that Thatcher had no mandate

to govern Scotland because she didn't have a majority of the vote,

even though she had 22 MPs. They chipped away over the 80s and 90s,

with large sections of the press and civic Scotland on side, it

culminates in 1997 when you have a Tory wipe-out and that argument that

Tories have no place in Scotland appears to be vindicated. The impact

was to weaken the case for a pooled Government of the political union,

and a Conservative Prime Minister begging Scotland not to vote for

independence simply to punish his party. I think people can feel it is

a bit like a general election, that you make a decision and five years

later you can make another decision if you are fete up with the "effing

Tories" and we will give them a kick. This is totally different!

The idea that Scotland is now a Tory-free zone is some what

overdone, at the last general election the SNP got slightly shy of

414,000, and Tories 410,000, their votes spread out all over the

country. This sweet, the last one they managed to hang on. Their big

enemy now, the Westminster voting system. If you live by the "first

past the post" you sometimes die by it. We are in the same position as

the liberal, once the SNP became the main alternative to Labour, for

Westminster elections very difficult to be right at the top of the list

when people come to vote. Here it is then. The office of the last

Conservative MP in Scotland. For the moment at least. The party

has done better in elections for the Scottish Parliament, only because

they use a form of PR. Is there perhaps an enduring Scottish

Conservative ideolgical legacy? Now independence is framed almost in

Thatcherite terms, low corporation tax, low personal taxation,

entrepenural and business-friendly, in that sense Thatcher and

Conservative ideology continues even on the cusp of an independence

referendum. What next then for Scotland's shrunken blue flock. That

like everything else depends on what happens on Thursday.

David Mundell is the last Conservative MP, and Alastair

Campbell rejoins u we will hear from him as well. When David Cameron

comes to Scotland and talks about the "effing Tories" how does that

make you feel? The point is this referendum is the most important

decision we will make about the future of Scotland, and it is not

about an individual political party or David Cameron. He's slagging off

your party? He's highlighting it isn't about the Conservative Party,

whether or not people like it, it is not about the Labour Party or Ed

Miliband. It is not an opinion poll. It is not a game. This is real, this

is the biggest decision we will ever take and it shouldn't be based on

things which are transitory. The fact he has said, not once but about

three times, he keeps going on about how unpopular the Tories are here,

why are they? I don't accept that the Tories are unpopular with

certain groups within Scotland. But as David pointed out in the piece,

over 400,000 people, one in six people voted Conservative in the

general election. We got one in 59 MPs because of the electoral system,

we accept that. But we have seen under Ruth Davidson our new leader

in Scotland a bit of a resurgence in the party. This was the only part of

the U king Dom where -- United Kingdom whose vote went up in the

European elections. When David Cameron turns up is it an asset for

you? I think it is very important the Prime Minister of the United

Kingdom comes to Scotland. I didn't hear you say yes? He is an asset and

he was here in Moffat recently and well received. Is he on your

literature, do you talk about David Cameron when you knock on doors? Of

course I do. I supported David Cameron for the leadership of the UK

Conservative Party, but also within Scotland we have our own leader in

Ruth Davidson. One of the identified stars of this referendum campaign,

somebody who has been very passionate about the United Kingdom

and somebody who is not a stereotypical Tory in the way that

people try to portray us. His Government in 1997 wiped you out,

and since then the only comeback you have got is you, with the best will

in the world. You are the only resurgent story since 1997. My

question is under a devolved and independent Scotland, could you

start all over again. Could it be beneficial for the Tories? Let's not

forget we have 15 MSPs and an MEP. So you don't have a problem in

Scotland? We have to grow in Scotland, and under Ruth's

leadership, she has been the game-changer in relation to more

powers, it was a fact that the Conservatives came out with

devolving income tax to the Scottish Parliament back in May, not just two

weeks ago, back in May, that has been a real game-changer in terms of

the powers debate. What do you think the effect of the Conservatives has

been on this campaign? I do agree I think Ruth Davies has been a very

effective campaigner. I have been impressed by what I have seen of

her. And I think she has made a very, very good case for the union.

To be absolutely frank, wrong there has been enough that have in this

campaign. I actually, I'm probably in a minority in this, and I know

there has been a view that you should keep Cameron away because the

Tories are a bit toxic, I spoke to George Osborne a few weeks ago and I

said when he came up here and made the economic case for the country

staying together, he moved the dial and then he made the case and flew

back straight away. He FLILTed in and FLILTed out according to Alex

Salmond. What should he have done? I believe there should have been a

more concerted argument by all of the mainstream parties and the

anti-nationalist parties. Some people would say you are living in a

dream world, you think that the no and Better Together campaign has won

a good ground war and sold their arguments well? No, what I'm saying

is I think, look, politicians like Ed Miliband got a bit of a knock

about today, politicians have to show they are really passionate and

care about an argument. To be frank, I don't think that the Conservative

Party in Westminster has done enough to show that they really, really

care for the union. I think Ruth Davies has in this campaign. Do you

regret the Blair Government started the whole devolution bandwagon? I

don't think so, it is clear what people in Scotland wanted. I think

the Conservatives made a mistake not in terms of making a principled

opposition to devolution, but for seeming to block it. I think it was

clear it had become the settled will of the Scottish people, now we have

to work to make it work better. One of the things that has come out of

it. So if it is independence and that is the will of the Scottish

people, that is fine too according to your logic? It is not fine,

because I'm arguing for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. I will

do that until 10.00 on the 18th. If the people of Scotland decide they

want to be independent from the rest of the United Kingdom, that is their

verdict and we will work to make it work. You have nothing but praise

for the way David Cameron has handled the campaign then? I

wouldn't say, that I do think one of the reasons why it has got as close

as it has is because Simon ran rings around Cameron in the negotiations

for the referendum. I think that the argument has not been made

passionately enough up until now I think when we look back on this

campaign, that opinion poll, it is ridiculous that it should taken a

opinion poll to galvanise people. But that YouGov poll ten days ago or

whatever, suddenly the business community who kept their heads down

hoping not to get engaged and the Westminster parties thinking this is

close and we have to get stuck in properly and do this properly and

then engage in a way. The last ten days FLOOENG the debate in here has

been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed. 30 miles that way

lies the border with England, a border that by Thursday that could

have a whole new significance if tax is set by a new independent Scotland

and corporation rates and levies are lowered this side. How will that

affect the business decisions of all those living a short car ride away.

By train Newcastle is three hours from London but only an

hour-and-a-half from Edinburgh. Whatever the result of this vote is

Scotland will have new powers. That could have a big effect on the

economy in the north-east. Local businesses are still working out the

format. But even if there is a no vote new tax powers for Scotland

could affect north eastern firms. What if there are changes in

corporation tax, which companies will be here in the north-east will

be attracted for those reasons to go up to Scotland? What if they have

special powers to incentivise inward investment, next time a Nissan, who

are based on Sunderland, comes along, or Hitachi in Durham, vital

to our economy, will they come here or Scotland. What about air

passenger duty what if they manage to lower their's, who will fly out

of Newcastle airport. There is a feeling whatever Scotland decides

will have influence here. But that local people haven't been asked for

their views. We have the editor of Viz. It's like if your neighbour

gets a colour television in the 1960s, and you start looking through

the window and going they have a colour telly, or your neighbour gets

a car or phone and you think you need those, because we are a bit

neglected. Scotland is neglected by London and so are we, but the

landlord is saying you can buy your house if you want, you can take on

the mortgage and all the responsibility and you can go away

and look after it yourself, and we are sort of thinking maybe we should

do that as well. I have an artist's impression of how I envisage the

future. Basically reinstating the Roman wall and what we have is a

slab racial between the jocks and the Gordies, from London we are

viewed as the desolate north, if we rebuild the Roman wall and join up

with the Scots, then we will become the affluent south! Historically the

River Tyne has always been at the heart of the Newcastle economy. That

is still the case today. Unemployment up here in the

north-east is higher than any other part in the UK. Things have been

getting better, in the last year employment growth has been faster in

this region than anywhere else. But developments in Scotland threaten

this region than anywhere else. But blow this recovery completely off

course. You blow this recovery completely off

in here? We have, there is a vast range of businesses that take space

in the yard. Charley Holt of Holt's Yard just outside the centre of

Newcastle thinks the fears are overblown? We have a yard here full

of 90 small businesses, but all of them export, all of them look

overseas. You know there is a guy who sells trainers on the Internet,

you look at his DHL book, 75% are going overseas, you look at the guys

designing T-shirts, half of the business is in Europe and half in

the US, and a bit in the UK. Small businesses are now international.

The small businesses that rent this yard are a north eastern success

story, but what is happening just across the border in Scotland could

put it all at risk, independence, or even devolution is often seen as a

political and constitutional question. But it could have a huge

economic impact. I didn't really appreciate until quite recently the

economic impact. I didn't really range of powers they may get. Jeremy

Middleton thinks the north has to start preparing now, whichever

Middleton thinks the north has to the vote goes. Those responsible for

economic development in the north of England, that is the Local

Enterprise Partnerships, who also represent all of local Government,

need to be talking to the Government in Scotland and the Government in

Westminster. Let's work together to get a solution that will build both

our economies. Let's not start a trade war. Let's not start fighting

with each other. The people of Scotland will decide their future

this week, but the debate about the future of the north is just

beginning. As I mentioned at the very

beginning, talks that began some 40 years ago today will end this week.

Isabel Hardman of the Spectator and Richard Walker of the Sunday Herald

are seeing it through to pretty much the bitter end. It is very

interesting that your paper is the only one, am I right Richard, the

Sunday Herald is the only one that has come out in favour of a yes

vote? That's correct. Isn't that extraordinary that this whole

campaign will have been waged without the media seeming to have

split at all? I think it is, that is one of the reasons why Alex Salmond

has developed this persecution complex, that all the media are

against him. That is quite effective for SNP supporters to feel that

everyone is against them, because it galvanises them to campaign harder

and fight heard. It is the same with all insurgent parties, UKIP, the

Liberal Democrats when they were an insurgent party too, they had the

complex that the world was against them and they had to band and stick

together. What do you think it says, without being too much of a naval

gazer here, that all the media seem to be on one side, does it suggest

they are completely out of step with public opinion? I can only speak for

the spectator, we are passionately pro-union because we believe in the

union and our readers believe in the union. As for Scottish media... I

think it is odd, I think it is odd that even in most polls suggesting

around about 48-54% of the population support independence, and

only one newspaper is on those people's side, I think there is

democratic deficit there definitely. Do you feel the yes campaign has

just come off the boil at this point. The polls that sent everyone

into such a frenzy ten days ago now seem to be sort of softening a bit

don't they? I don't think they have come off the boil at all. I think

the country is so engaged in this debate, which has just been the most

fantastic debate I have seen in this country. I think you have got polls

that put it up two points or down two points, out in the streets you

see the yes campaigners passionately arguing their case. You don't see so

many no campaigners out there, in Glasgow on Saturday the whole of the

street was taken over by yes campaigners, there was almost a

carnival-like atmosphere, bands playing. What do you do with 48

hours, if you are the Better Together campaign now, what are your

parting shots do you think? I don't think they should be parting shots,

it is about the positive case for the union. Making people feel they

are making a positive decision to vote no, rather than they are just

being kill joys. That is what is important. Did you agree with

Alastair Campbell, I don't know if you heard that, broadly George

Osborne should have come up here, stayed up here and carried on making

the point. It wasn't about the head versus the heart campaign at all?

The heart campaign is really important and I'm not sure there has

been enough of that, enough of the positive case for the United Kingdom

as a whole and what it has achieved. We have only seen that coming from

the Westminster parties in the last few week, I'm not sure they have

given enough time on that. I don't think the Westminster parties

understand the difference between a negative and political campaign, at

the very start of the campaign we had a chat with Alasdair Darling and

about it being negative? He said no way we have wage add very positive

campaign and he was saying the same last week. I don't know anyone who

can look at the campaign and say it was not positive. Their strategy has

been to maintain a poll lead rather than expand the case, that has been

an an error. That your for the warm welcome in Moffat and to all who

came, the studio audience with us. Tomorrow night the Newsnight tent

moves on to Glasgow, we bring you the final day of coverage before

polls close. And we would also try to bring together as many of the

still undecided voters as we possibly can before Scotland goes to

the polls and votes in the historic Reverend DHAUM could -- referendum

that could change the lives of everyone. We are joined by our Ceile

band now. Sweet dreams. The low cloud from the east

overnight, many places starting off grey and misty, sunshine quick air

cross shelter, western areas, developing widely through the day.

Some eastern parts of England and Scotland could stay dull and grey

all day. Not so Northern Ireland, we should see a bit of sunshine