16/09/2014 Newsnight


Live from the heartland of the No vote, a Scotland referendum special. With Emily Maitlis.

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This programme has flashing images s.


Tonight live from Scotland, a noisy end to a long campaign.


Ed Miliband is forced to bane done his walk about as chaos breaks out


on the trail. Who has won this ground war? We ask Alastair


Campbell, how would the world view us without Scotland. David Grossman


goes looking for the rarest of creatures, the Scottish story. Here


it is, the office of the last Conservative MP in Scotland. And the


Scots and Gordies. If we rebuild the Roman wall and join up with the


Scots, we will become the affluent south. Chris Donald wants the


north-east to join Scotland. Good evening, tonight with two days


of campaigning to go, we are in the shadow of St Andrew's church and the


market town of Moffat. This constituency has what no other


constituency has, a Scottish Tory MP. How powerful have the voices


here been to the unionists. It may feel like the campaign has been


going on forever. Here is proof you are right. The first debate about


Scottish devolution took place 40 years ago. What would those voices


have made of the claims and counter claims today, today the future of


the NHS became the topic. Can either offer a manifesto that can be


delivered. We will ask the studio audience in a minute and we will


hear from Allegra Stratton about the credibility gap. First to Laura


Kuensberg with the latest polls. You would have to have a blindfold


on and fingers in your ears not to walk around and not realise that


something is happening in Scotland. This h been tangible as a campaign


more than in recent times W it has come a volatility and intensity that


has made it hard to predict. Three new polls tonight all of which


suggest that no to independence is narrowly in the lead on 52 and yes


to a new and different country is just behind on 48. That, however,


will not allow the unionist side to breathe easy, with these polls come


two big fat caveats. They can't hope to begin to capture the new voters


who have registered, perhaps as many as a million by some estimate, and


the extraordinary turnout expected by all the pundits. Maybe as much as


90%. The polls are not certain, in a way that we might normally consider


them. But what might make the unionist side feel a bit easier


tonight? Sleep a bit more restfully after everything that has in recent


days is one very influential press baron. A certain Rupert Murdoch has


come out in the Scottish Sun, not for independence, which he had been


flirting with, but instead with a rather gruesome front page, mocking


up Alastair Darling and Alex Salmond in X Factor and Britain's Got


Talents photos and saying it is up to you Scotland. Politicians are all


too aware this will be won vote by vote. Even with two days campaigning


there is still a lot of hard work to do. A lot could change.


Our political editor has been on the stump, tracking their every move.


He once held power across all of Britain, but today the future of the


United Kingdom seemed to rest in this plan's pledge to hand some of


those powers away. David Cameron now this plan's pledge to hand some of


won't be seen in Scotland until after the referendum. The pro-union


push has been left in the hands of the locals.


The three leaders of the main UK parties made it absolutely clear


that there is now a timetable for more powers for the Scottish


Parliament, that Scottish Parliament will be permanent and valued as part


of the UK constitution, that Scotland will always be involved and


engaged in the discussions about the future of the UK constitution. Some


50 hours to go, no time for a novice and not time for novel ideas either,


just the deal that Gordon Brown believes he brokered.


This morning your special adviser said that over the last year you


have wanted to talk to Ed Miliband and David Cameron about your ideas


and they haven't picked up the phone, did that happen? I spoke to


Ed Miliband a great deal. I have no issue. And David Cameron, has he not


listened? I have been putting proposals and wrote a book about


proposals for reform about the constitution. Did David Cameron


listen to you sufficiently? They have now looked at the proposals in


my book, today there is this letter in the Daily Record, a Scottish


newspaper, last week there was an agreement on a timetable what has


happened is all the parties have come together. A slightly lower key


event down the road. To many people Charley Kennedy is the cavalry, is


that right? No, I have been called a lot of things in my time, but that


is a first. Whatever happens on Friday there is more powers going to


Hollyrood, if it is going to be a meaningful institution, someone like


you should want to get stuck in? How flattering. Behrami are having to


use tter -- Better Together have to use characters like Charley Kennedy.


They took to the Daily Record to set out the powers they will give to the


Scottish people. They said it last week and now they feel they have to


set it out in indelible ink. Trust in Westminster's politicians is also


on trial on Thursday. We saw the pledge you signed today, a last


desperate move to hold the Labour vote together? The Labour leader


answered questions, but as campaigners of all colours encircled


him and the media, he had to be ushered out.


This was once a Labour heartland, indeed it was once a Labour shrine.


Clyde Bank in Glasgow, where industrial strive in the 20s made


the Labour Party. Yes campaigners tell us it is not an affluence area,


something pollsters agree points towards a yes vote. Front page of


the Daily Record has the three Westminster leaders talking about


the powers? We are sick of the powers and the leaders, look at the


state the country is in. We are fed up with the empty promises. If you


had more powers would you change the country? Why not have more powers


when we is can have our own power, we could have our own constitution,


this is our time. This is our town. We followed them for half an hour,


they are very optimistic on Thursday it is a yes vote. They say the


promise this morning of more powers from the three Westminster party


leaders won't make a bit of difference. The only guaranteed way


of getting more powers for Scotland, the powers we need to protect our


public service, create jobs make sure we never again get Tory


Governments we don't vote for is to vote yes, to keep control of the


future of this country where it is now, in our own hands. If we vote no


we hand control of the future of Scotland straight back to the


Westminster establishment and have to cross our fingers hoping for some


crumbs from the Westminster table in the form of a new power here or


there. That is not good enough, if we vote yes we have control of the


powers we have here in Scotland. Tonight senior figures in the no


camp are confident. Try telling it to this lot.


Allegra Stratton with that report. As you can see we have a live


audience here in Moffat. Last night, if you watched the show you remember


we had more yes than no. Tonight to balance it out we have more no than


yes and a few undecided scattered inbetween. We will have a show of


hands and get thoughts on the way along. Someone who describes himself


as British, Scottish and Yorkshire, in that order, and knows how to


organise a ground war is Alastair Campbell, and we have Jeanne


Freeman, former adviser to Jack McConnell, who promisingly describes


herself as opinionated, good to have you here. You know what a good


campaign looks and feels like from within, was this one? You would have


to say in terms of what you call the ground war the yes campaign has put


together a pretty formidable campaigning machine, you judge it by


the outcome. And the fundamentals are what count. The reason why I do


believe actually that the polls which are drifting back to the no


campaign are going to be proved right, that no probably will win is


a very, very big fundamental questions have not been answered.


That is why you have so many undeciders. They are to me, a lot of


them are people who are looking for a reason to vote yes, and they


haven't been won over. Any lawyers here will know there is a Scottish


verdict called "not proven", I think the case for independence has not


been proven, but the risks of rep separation have been proven and that


is why Alex Salmond's momentum has stalled. The report suggests that


the money the yes campaign was spent on the ground, and the no spent it


on the think tanks, the currency focus groups, and actually got the


issues right, do you accept that? I hope the no campaign didn't spend


any money on the focus group that told them to run that first ad, that


most women in Scotland found astonishingly patronising, I hope


they didn't waste their money on that. I think that the no examine is


a top-down run campaign, it is largely run by the three unionist


parties. Alastair Campbell and I agree on it, the yes campaign is a


grassroots campaign and populated by people who haven't been in politics


before. People not in political parties and doing this all for the


first time. And ran a campaign, some have said of intimidation, that the


no camp has been quieter because they haven't dared admit who they


have been voting for? I think that is a piece of nonsense. Both no and


yes have our own small number of folks who in the olden days would


probably write letters in green ink and are now using this opportunity


to express their frustrations and their annoyance, but the vast bulk


of this campaign, and remember whilst it might be getting a lot of


attention now, it is two years old and it is conducted with remarkable


civility. On either side, would anyone say they felt intimidated by


the way the campaign has been run, just a show of hands. So three


people on the yes campaign, and one on the no campaign. Keep your hand


up if you want to share your views how you felt. No-one, OK. Yes you


have. I had a problem on a doorstep with somebody who took a violent


exception to what I was saying and didn't like the message. You were


spreading the message as a no campaigner? That's right. Has anyone


here lied to a pollster during the course of this campaign. If you were


called up, just raise your hand, I won't go any further, tell me, put


your hand up if you have lied to a pollster about your position?


No-one, that will be interesting. If that is representative then our


polls are true. Alastair Campbell is this the closest battle you have


ever seen? No, I don't think so. You have had, you go back to the Quebec


referendum and others. It has been the most innovating and energised


campaign I have seen, that is to the yes campaign's credit. They have got


this, it is about big questions and fundamental questions. But as I said


earlier, you have to judge a campaign on the outcome. They have


closed the gap. The reason I think why they have been able to build


this formidable ground examine is because -- campaign is the


Westminster parties were slow about it and they have now managed to


bring up the questions about the pound and NATO. Is this more


important to you than the campaigns you ran for Tony Blair, more than


1997 and winning for new Labour? That was a really big thing for us.


As David Cameron said yesterday and lots of the party leaders have said,


long after the leaders that we see on our TV screens today have gone,


this vote on Thursday decides the future of this country and it is


irreversible. I think that is another reason why the undecides


have come back. It is the irreversibility of it, if you are


going to take a decision such as changing the fundamental nature of


your country you have to be sure. So many people are not sure, they don't


know about the pound or Europe, or who will pay for their pensions. You


have done that list already. It is better than talking about some old


advert everyone has forgotten about. From a Labour perspective, you are


pro-independence, when you look at Alex Salmond, is he the future of


the country? I think independence is the future of the country. I'm not


unique as a former Labour supporter, supporting independence. 42% and


rising of Labour supporters are moving to independence. So let me


just finish. How did you lose Labour? The reason for that is


people are angry at Labour in Scotland, they are angry that we


have one in four children in poverty, we have a million people


living in poverty, and Labour has consistently broken promises. That


is why no matter the pledge people will not trust that. Do you accept


that? I STHAEP a lot of people here, and a lot of people in the United


Kingdom. A lot of people in northern towns, in coastal towns and Kent,


people feel hacked off with Westminster politics, it is not just


a Scottish thing. What Alex Salmond is trying to persuade people, this


is unique to Scotland and if you get rid of the UK Government


everything's going to be perfect in Scotland. That is not true. That is


not his argument. It is the politics of grievance the whole time. You


have heard the arguments and probably many times, who here feels


that they can believe the deal that has been set out for them by either


side, whichever side you believe on the table, who feels that they


trust, right, and you are no, so even though it hasn't been spelt out


what will happen to income tax and corporation tax, you don't know, you


are trusting they will offer the right powers or you don't want any


new powers? The parties are offering different things. A specific


timetable has been set out and we know exactly when it is going to


happen. I was going to say the same thing. Let me say, the parties are


going to make different proposals what this referendum has done is it


has got the whole nature of British politics and constitution, how we do


politics on to the agenda for the whole of the UK. What has happened


is with two weeks to go suddenly the parties supporting the union have


started treating this seriously. They were dismissing it right up


until them. You are absolutely right, the three parties have three


different things to offer. We can't possibly say if we vote no we vote


with certainty. You are voting with certainty for fundamental change to


the constitutional change. Labour offers the least of all. If we end


up with the least common denominator it will be flittering around the


edges of what we have already got and not worth the paper it is


written on. Anyone undecided. Can I ask, if you don't mind answering


this, what will change your mind in the next two days? You are going to


vote any way, right. What will change it? I'm looking to hear


arguments that feed what I'm looking for from an independent country. I


think my instinct is for more power, more autonomy, but as a business


person, actually it hasn't been made clear that the situation will


actually help that side of my life. So it is balance between various


different things. What do you all your, British without Scotland? You


wrote very passionately today the order in which you identity? I think


national identity is important for every individual, and it is


changing. You see that in Scotland going around the streets here. I do


feel British, then Scottish, then Yorkshire, and I feel English a


long, long way behind that. And if the United Kingdom, the country that


I live in separates from lots of my family who live here, so my brother


will have a different passport to me, and I just feel that it is, Bill


Clinton has put out a statement tonight and made a fantastic point


were he goes through the issues about the pound, about the fact you


will get more powers, but he makes the wonderful point that Scotland


can show the world that it is possible to have differences with


your neighbours but coexist peacefully. That is a brilliant


explanation. So some are saying the yes campaign is about hating the


English and Bill Clinton is saying something else? What built has said


it is nonsense. I'm talking to Emily here, what is nonsense is the fact


that those of us who support independence are anti-anybody. We


are not the ones wandering around insisting we are patriotic Scots.


Please. Bill Clinton, I agree, with independence we can prove that we


can make the right decisions in Scotland and coexist happily with


our neighbours. Ripping five countries apart, UK, Scotland,


England and Wales and Northern Ireland. This is classic language,


we are not ripping anything. In 48 hours the polls will have closed and


we could be on the brink of the end of the United Kingdom, the five


countries as we know it. It is fair to say that Britannia no longer


rules the waves and hasn't for many decades. But how will the moment be


seen in years to come and what is the rest of the world, looking on


from afar, make of the concept of a new Britain if it happens?


Neighbour, rivals, often enemies, before the Act of Union there was


England and Scotland. As the age of empire dawned, both nations set sail


to conquer the world, England found fertile territory in Virginia,


Scotland's ambitions died after an ill-fated venture to Panama. After


the failure of the new world, Scotland turned to the old enemy and


the union was born. Although Scotland entered into the union from


a position of weakness, the two nations united as equals and the


United Kingdom went on to dominate the globe. The British Empire turned


the map pink, everywhere the British Empire went Scots were in the


vanguard. In India in 1792 Scots made up one in nine in civil


servants and one in three army officers, Glasgow built the ships


that ruled the waves for Britannia. But as the imperial tide turned, and


as Britain's colonies one by one caught independence, some in


Scotland also began to question their continued membership of the


union. Far from seeing themselves as fellow colonialist, they felt


themselves to be living in England's closest colony. By joining its lot


with England, Scotland created the idea of the United Kingdom. If Scots


vote yes on Thursday, without the tether of the original active union,


could other parts of the British Isles feel their ties to the union


also begin to loosen? Shakar Dayal Simon Schama is here,


and Neal Ascherson. A warm welcome to both of you. I wonder if you


shouldn't look at what might happen on Thursday as a natural unwinding


of the British Empire? Well the natural histories of nations are


almost a poetic thing, but they are very, very important. There is no


timetable which goes from infancy to decrepitude, countries renew


themselves. As has been said tonight there is a possible moment of


renewal and re-think what Britain is. That is very important. I want


to say one can wax sentimental about the history of Britain. I'm


unapologetically not a romantic about Britain, but I'm not at all


ashamed about what Britain has accomplished. Your little


introductory session was all about empire, one has an immediate sense


of an imperial culture in aspic. Sort of tiffin, chukka and mounties,


but what this union produced was Adam Smith, David Hume, engineering,


there are great elements of modernist dynamic qualities in our


life that still go on. You either believe today, I think actually,


that you want to live in countries in which you have just one-nation,


by itself, or you are thrilled and excited by the possibility of living


in a country with different, distinct, national cultures that


share the same house. That's what those of us who are not apologetic


about being British want to defend. Is it that sense of empire Neal, you


think people on the independent side are wanting to get away from now?


No, I really don't think it is. I mean it is there. The fact that


people in great liberal newspapers in London can say what is taking


place in Scotland is ethnic chauvinism, the Observer, can you


believe it? If you scratch that underneath it is the relics of


empire thinking. But no, there are much more important things to think


about, which is, you know, what kind of Scotland? I mean the thing about


voting yes for independence is it is not you know that you can produce a


full menu of everything that's going to be done, independence is a


gateway, you go through it, and then when you are through it then you ask


yourself what kind of Scotland? That's what it is about, it is not


about the break ago I way from an empire. I wonder if you think of


nationalism nowadays as a dirty word? I certainly don't think of


Scottish nationalism as a dirty word, it is true there is something


to rejoice in a country which is talking to itself and talking to its


neighbours about its own identity. I think actually the ferocious average


nationalism, nationalisms which are by definition from the beginning


warrior nationalisms and for all the size of the monuments of William


Wallace that is not the case. One of the wonderful things about the


campaign is it has in some way been about a national community. I


actually celebrate that. I speak as an Englishman who is also British,


and also Jewish as well like you, and we like to live, at least I like


to live in a country, I won't presume for you, we like to live in


a community where we have all these different places in our place of


residence. Let me hand this to the audience. How many of you will call


yourself a nationalist? No-one. That is interesting. No-one on the yes


side would say that you feel nationalist. Would you all call


yourself Scottish? Right, OK. Can I ask the same question about empire,


when you think of empire, when I say the word "empire" who thinks of it


with a sense of proud heritage? Can you keep your hand up if you can


tell me why? Sir, you have had your hand up a couple of times, this


gentleman on the yes side at the back. I think it has, the result of


it has put a lot of people across the world together. And I grew up in


Zimbabwe, for example, and feel part of something much bigger than just a


country. It is a global community, if you like. And I think there is


something exciting about that. And when you say it is a global


community but you are voting yes, you are sitting on this side, you


don't see any contradiction in that particularly? I suppose I'm in


favour of unity rather than division and I think we have seen a lot of


division in the world which has brought about a lot of tragic


situations and I have come through one myself. I'm not saying Scotland


is like Zimbabwe, it isn't at all, but I feel very weary of the


uncertainty that may lie in front of us. Are you sure you have a yes


badge on, you made the most eloquent case for no. Are you undecided? It


is a no badge! The empire brought the rule of law to all sorts of


places, which didn't have that and in Moffat we have John McAdam who


invented the modern road surfaces, and he's buried in the churchyard


behind you on the other side of the the high street, that is another


sign of empire, he made it possible to get from A-B. There are empires


of the mind too, not very far from Moffat, there was a statue of the


scary but incredibly important Thomas Carlyle, one of the greatest


historians of the 19th century. Apart from Ruskin and Dicken, Thomas


Carlyle was the most-read Victorian author. Whatever you think of his


extraordinarily foaming wild prose about the French Revolution, Carlyle


said this to industrial Britain, "do not just be a nation of machinery,


have a conscience, think about your Christian heritage". One thing I


think one needs to be unapologetic about, as a union of different


nations in Britain, it is the war we fought with our conscience against


fascism. That was something. When you hear that line, do you hear


somebody who is trying to sort of tug on the heartstrings and remind


you of all that you have been through? Yes I do. I have to say.


Becoming independent isn't done without loss. There is always


something to pay, you know. And there is. It can be something small


like losing a newspaper in a metropolitan language, it can be


something much bigger. For me I have fought in Her Majesty's war, I have


had to kill people on the order of Her Majesty, which I now bitterly


regret. At the same time I still have a deep love for the people I


fought with in the Royal Marines. And when I think you know the flag


will no longer be my flag, it is a stab, but that is the price you pay.


You go through the gate and to live in a better society, it has to be


done. A quote from a former Italian Prime Minister who said it is not


far fetched to compare the consequences of what this would mean


to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Yes it is far fetched.


Let's leave it there. Good try. Who feels that they are already living


in a devolved nation? Who feels for the last 15 years you are already in


a devolved nation, no? Who feels that more devolution, whatever the


outcome is a good thing? More devolution is a good thing, more


powers for Scotland is a good thing. Who doesn't want to see any more


powers with Scotland. OK. I think it is about more powers for everyone.


Not just Scotland. We are talking about the whole of the union, Great


Britain, United Kingdom. So it is powers for everyone not just


Scotland. And that is one of the reasons I'm voting no. And you are


shaking your head there? Yes, because that is you know it is a


noble, old song which has been empty of meaning, we have been there


before and people have constantly tried to say Scotland seems to be


moving away and doing naughty things, so let's make that process


part of a general UK process, and then we will get it under control,


what then happens is nothing. Who are these people? They are parts of


Britain and northern England which really need self-Government, and


they need it in many cases their position is worse than that of


Scotland, much worse, actually. Scotland will have their own


parliament. Does England need a parliament? I think it has to think


about it. If you are putting me on the spot and asking do I think it


would be a good idea, my feeling is yes. Mostly I think that the nature


of Great Britain as a federal state needs to have as vigorous a


discussion as happened in Scotland. Now you are presuming to talk to the


English, Neal. You can't have a federation in which there are 55


million of one partner and five the other. It can't work. Not all the


provinces of Canada have equal population, of course it can work.


The same is true of Switzerland as well. Of course it can work. That is


because there are many, many partners in a federation. Here there


is just three. There is a great deal of freedom and authority and power


in the parts that are federal. Let me say one more thing. Are you


saying whether it is small working together or with more powers it will


always win out over big? No I think the United States with all its


impossible conflicts shows that you can have a big power, providing it


deinvolves a lot of authority in the state it comprises of. It depends on


the quality of big and the quality of small. There is another thing


about federation, a federation is a beautiful thing, but a federation


that is simply hastily invented to head secession, isn't going to last.


I agree with you about that. Doesn't it show if nothing else how quickly


you can effect change if you want to? What does, I'm sorry? This whole


campaign shows how quickly can you change things if you want to? If


there is a no result there has to be a period in which frantic sweaty


speculation settles down into honest detailed discussion of the future of


Britain. That is not a bad thing. Thank you very much indeed. You have


all heard the endangered species, the question is why, what happened,


to the Conservatives who until the 1980s have flourished here. I name


this ship Britannia. The dawn of the new Elizabethan age. When Britannia


was launched on the Clyde, Scotland's Conservatives were


approaching their high water mark. But the following general election


in 1955, the party not only won a majority of Scottish seats, but also


of votes and astonishing achievements. But not perhaps as


Astonishing as when this was brought to Leith not a single seat was held


here by the Conservatives, the party was wiped out. I travelled then with


the new Conservative leader with William Hague, on his mission to


rescue the Conservative Party. How will you revive the party? I


have come to listen not lecture them. The Conservative Party needs


to do a good deal of listening over the coming months. One of the people


he was listening was Malcolm Rifkind, who had just lost his seat,


he told me of his hopes for a swift recovery. 17 years later I visited


Mr Rifkind again to remind him of his previous words and ask why it


hasn't happened, he says the problem is not particularly Conservatism?


People think the political divide is Scotland and England, it is not, it


is north and south. North begins north of the Midlands. At the moment


we have Conservative councillors in Edinburgh, Dundee, Glasgow,


Aberdeen, there is not a single Conservative councillor in


Liverpool, Newcastle or Manchester. The left have been much stronger and


in Scotland that includes the nationalists. In Scotland, in Wales,


in the north of England, the strength of the Tory Party is south


of the Midlands. Scottish Conservatives found one of the most


important cards they held, nationalism, no longer worked well


in a Scottish context, because their brand of nationalism, unionism, was


increasingly even as the antithesis of Scottishness.


A Tory Government in Westminster without a majority in Scotland,


allowed the other parties to further portray the Conservatives as an


alien force. The narrative in the 1980s and it is worth rembering in


1979 one in three Scots voted for Thatcher's Conservative Party, she


was never as unpopular as mythology now dictates. But throughout the 80s


Labour primarily and also the SNP argued that Thatcher had no mandate


to govern Scotland because she didn't have a majority of the vote,


even though she had 22 MPs. They chipped away over the 80s and 90s,


with large sections of the press and civic Scotland on side, it


culminates in 1997 when you have a Tory wipe-out and that argument that


Tories have no place in Scotland appears to be vindicated. The impact


was to weaken the case for a pooled Government of the political union,


and a Conservative Prime Minister begging Scotland not to vote for


independence simply to punish his party. I think people can feel it is


a bit like a general election, that you make a decision and five years


later you can make another decision if you are fete up with the "effing


Tories" and we will give them a kick. This is totally different!


The idea that Scotland is now a Tory-free zone is some what


overdone, at the last general election the SNP got slightly shy of


414,000, and Tories 410,000, their votes spread out all over the


country. This sweet, the last one they managed to hang on. Their big


enemy now, the Westminster voting system. If you live by the "first


past the post" you sometimes die by it. We are in the same position as


the liberal, once the SNP became the main alternative to Labour, for


Westminster elections very difficult to be right at the top of the list


when people come to vote. Here it is then. The office of the last


Conservative MP in Scotland. For the moment at least. The party


has done better in elections for the Scottish Parliament, only because


they use a form of PR. Is there perhaps an enduring Scottish


Conservative ideolgical legacy? Now independence is framed almost in


Thatcherite terms, low corporation tax, low personal taxation,


entrepenural and business-friendly, in that sense Thatcher and


Conservative ideology continues even on the cusp of an independence


referendum. What next then for Scotland's shrunken blue flock. That


like everything else depends on what happens on Thursday.


David Mundell is the last Conservative MP, and Alastair


Campbell rejoins u we will hear from him as well. When David Cameron


comes to Scotland and talks about the "effing Tories" how does that


make you feel? The point is this referendum is the most important


decision we will make about the future of Scotland, and it is not


about an individual political party or David Cameron. He's slagging off


your party? He's highlighting it isn't about the Conservative Party,


whether or not people like it, it is not about the Labour Party or Ed


Miliband. It is not an opinion poll. It is not a game. This is real, this


is the biggest decision we will ever take and it shouldn't be based on


things which are transitory. The fact he has said, not once but about


three times, he keeps going on about how unpopular the Tories are here,


why are they? I don't accept that the Tories are unpopular with


certain groups within Scotland. But as David pointed out in the piece,


over 400,000 people, one in six people voted Conservative in the


general election. We got one in 59 MPs because of the electoral system,


we accept that. But we have seen under Ruth Davidson our new leader


in Scotland a bit of a resurgence in the party. This was the only part of


the U king Dom where -- United Kingdom whose vote went up in the


European elections. When David Cameron turns up is it an asset for


you? I think it is very important the Prime Minister of the United


Kingdom comes to Scotland. I didn't hear you say yes? He is an asset and


he was here in Moffat recently and well received. Is he on your


literature, do you talk about David Cameron when you knock on doors? Of


course I do. I supported David Cameron for the leadership of the UK


Conservative Party, but also within Scotland we have our own leader in


Ruth Davidson. One of the identified stars of this referendum campaign,


somebody who has been very passionate about the United Kingdom


and somebody who is not a stereotypical Tory in the way that


people try to portray us. His Government in 1997 wiped you out,


and since then the only comeback you have got is you, with the best will


in the world. You are the only resurgent story since 1997. My


question is under a devolved and independent Scotland, could you


start all over again. Could it be beneficial for the Tories? Let's not


forget we have 15 MSPs and an MEP. So you don't have a problem in


Scotland? We have to grow in Scotland, and under Ruth's


leadership, she has been the game-changer in relation to more


powers, it was a fact that the Conservatives came out with


devolving income tax to the Scottish Parliament back in May, not just two


weeks ago, back in May, that has been a real game-changer in terms of


the powers debate. What do you think the effect of the Conservatives has


been on this campaign? I do agree I think Ruth Davies has been a very


effective campaigner. I have been impressed by what I have seen of


her. And I think she has made a very, very good case for the union.


To be absolutely frank, wrong there has been enough that have in this


campaign. I actually, I'm probably in a minority in this, and I know


there has been a view that you should keep Cameron away because the


Tories are a bit toxic, I spoke to George Osborne a few weeks ago and I


said when he came up here and made the economic case for the country


staying together, he moved the dial and then he made the case and flew


back straight away. He FLILTed in and FLILTed out according to Alex


Salmond. What should he have done? I believe there should have been a


more concerted argument by all of the mainstream parties and the


anti-nationalist parties. Some people would say you are living in a


dream world, you think that the no and Better Together campaign has won


a good ground war and sold their arguments well? No, what I'm saying


is I think, look, politicians like Ed Miliband got a bit of a knock


about today, politicians have to show they are really passionate and


care about an argument. To be frank, I don't think that the Conservative


Party in Westminster has done enough to show that they really, really


care for the union. I think Ruth Davies has in this campaign. Do you


regret the Blair Government started the whole devolution bandwagon? I


don't think so, it is clear what people in Scotland wanted. I think


the Conservatives made a mistake not in terms of making a principled


opposition to devolution, but for seeming to block it. I think it was


clear it had become the settled will of the Scottish people, now we have


to work to make it work better. One of the things that has come out of


it. So if it is independence and that is the will of the Scottish


people, that is fine too according to your logic? It is not fine,


because I'm arguing for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. I will


do that until 10.00 on the 18th. If the people of Scotland decide they


want to be independent from the rest of the United Kingdom, that is their


verdict and we will work to make it work. You have nothing but praise


for the way David Cameron has handled the campaign then? I


wouldn't say, that I do think one of the reasons why it has got as close


as it has is because Simon ran rings around Cameron in the negotiations


for the referendum. I think that the argument has not been made


passionately enough up until now I think when we look back on this


campaign, that opinion poll, it is ridiculous that it should taken a


opinion poll to galvanise people. But that YouGov poll ten days ago or


whatever, suddenly the business community who kept their heads down


hoping not to get engaged and the Westminster parties thinking this is


close and we have to get stuck in properly and do this properly and


then engage in a way. The last ten days FLOOENG the debate in here has


been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed. 30 miles that way


lies the border with England, a border that by Thursday that could


have a whole new significance if tax is set by a new independent Scotland


and corporation rates and levies are lowered this side. How will that


affect the business decisions of all those living a short car ride away.


By train Newcastle is three hours from London but only an


hour-and-a-half from Edinburgh. Whatever the result of this vote is


Scotland will have new powers. That could have a big effect on the


economy in the north-east. Local businesses are still working out the


format. But even if there is a no vote new tax powers for Scotland


could affect north eastern firms. What if there are changes in


corporation tax, which companies will be here in the north-east will


be attracted for those reasons to go up to Scotland? What if they have


special powers to incentivise inward investment, next time a Nissan, who


are based on Sunderland, comes along, or Hitachi in Durham, vital


to our economy, will they come here or Scotland. What about air


passenger duty what if they manage to lower their's, who will fly out


of Newcastle airport. There is a feeling whatever Scotland decides


will have influence here. But that local people haven't been asked for


their views. We have the editor of Viz. It's like if your neighbour


gets a colour television in the 1960s, and you start looking through


the window and going they have a colour telly, or your neighbour gets


a car or phone and you think you need those, because we are a bit


neglected. Scotland is neglected by London and so are we, but the


landlord is saying you can buy your house if you want, you can take on


the mortgage and all the responsibility and you can go away


and look after it yourself, and we are sort of thinking maybe we should


do that as well. I have an artist's impression of how I envisage the


future. Basically reinstating the Roman wall and what we have is a


slab racial between the jocks and the Gordies, from London we are


viewed as the desolate north, if we rebuild the Roman wall and join up


with the Scots, then we will become the affluent south! Historically the


River Tyne has always been at the heart of the Newcastle economy. That


is still the case today. Unemployment up here in the


north-east is higher than any other part in the UK. Things have been


getting better, in the last year employment growth has been faster in


this region than anywhere else. But developments in Scotland threaten


this region than anywhere else. But blow this recovery completely off


course. You blow this recovery completely off


in here? We have, there is a vast range of businesses that take space


in the yard. Charley Holt of Holt's Yard just outside the centre of


Newcastle thinks the fears are overblown? We have a yard here full


of 90 small businesses, but all of them export, all of them look


overseas. You know there is a guy who sells trainers on the Internet,


you look at his DHL book, 75% are going overseas, you look at the guys


designing T-shirts, half of the business is in Europe and half in


the US, and a bit in the UK. Small businesses are now international.


The small businesses that rent this yard are a north eastern success


story, but what is happening just across the border in Scotland could


put it all at risk, independence, or even devolution is often seen as a


political and constitutional question. But it could have a huge


economic impact. I didn't really appreciate until quite recently the


economic impact. I didn't really range of powers they may get. Jeremy


Middleton thinks the north has to start preparing now, whichever


Middleton thinks the north has to the vote goes. Those responsible for


economic development in the north of England, that is the Local


Enterprise Partnerships, who also represent all of local Government,


need to be talking to the Government in Scotland and the Government in


Westminster. Let's work together to get a solution that will build both


our economies. Let's not start a trade war. Let's not start fighting


with each other. The people of Scotland will decide their future


this week, but the debate about the future of the north is just


beginning. As I mentioned at the very


beginning, talks that began some 40 years ago today will end this week.


Isabel Hardman of the Spectator and Richard Walker of the Sunday Herald


are seeing it through to pretty much the bitter end. It is very


interesting that your paper is the only one, am I right Richard, the


Sunday Herald is the only one that has come out in favour of a yes


vote? That's correct. Isn't that extraordinary that this whole


campaign will have been waged without the media seeming to have


split at all? I think it is, that is one of the reasons why Alex Salmond


has developed this persecution complex, that all the media are


against him. That is quite effective for SNP supporters to feel that


everyone is against them, because it galvanises them to campaign harder


and fight heard. It is the same with all insurgent parties, UKIP, the


Liberal Democrats when they were an insurgent party too, they had the


complex that the world was against them and they had to band and stick


together. What do you think it says, without being too much of a naval


gazer here, that all the media seem to be on one side, does it suggest


they are completely out of step with public opinion? I can only speak for


the spectator, we are passionately pro-union because we believe in the


union and our readers believe in the union. As for Scottish media... I


think it is odd, I think it is odd that even in most polls suggesting


around about 48-54% of the population support independence, and


only one newspaper is on those people's side, I think there is


democratic deficit there definitely. Do you feel the yes campaign has


just come off the boil at this point. The polls that sent everyone


into such a frenzy ten days ago now seem to be sort of softening a bit


don't they? I don't think they have come off the boil at all. I think


the country is so engaged in this debate, which has just been the most


fantastic debate I have seen in this country. I think you have got polls


that put it up two points or down two points, out in the streets you


see the yes campaigners passionately arguing their case. You don't see so


many no campaigners out there, in Glasgow on Saturday the whole of the


street was taken over by yes campaigners, there was almost a


carnival-like atmosphere, bands playing. What do you do with 48


hours, if you are the Better Together campaign now, what are your


parting shots do you think? I don't think they should be parting shots,


it is about the positive case for the union. Making people feel they


are making a positive decision to vote no, rather than they are just


being kill joys. That is what is important. Did you agree with


Alastair Campbell, I don't know if you heard that, broadly George


Osborne should have come up here, stayed up here and carried on making


the point. It wasn't about the head versus the heart campaign at all?


The heart campaign is really important and I'm not sure there has


been enough of that, enough of the positive case for the United Kingdom


as a whole and what it has achieved. We have only seen that coming from


the Westminster parties in the last few week, I'm not sure they have


given enough time on that. I don't think the Westminster parties


understand the difference between a negative and political campaign, at


the very start of the campaign we had a chat with Alasdair Darling and


about it being negative? He said no way we have wage add very positive


campaign and he was saying the same last week. I don't know anyone who


can look at the campaign and say it was not positive. Their strategy has


been to maintain a poll lead rather than expand the case, that has been


an an error. That your for the warm welcome in Moffat and to all who


came, the studio audience with us. Tomorrow night the Newsnight tent


moves on to Glasgow, we bring you the final day of coverage before


polls close. And we would also try to bring together as many of the


still undecided voters as we possibly can before Scotland goes to


the polls and votes in the historic Reverend DHAUM could -- referendum


that could change the lives of everyone. We are joined by our Ceile


band now. Sweet dreams. The low cloud from the east


overnight, many places starting off grey and misty, sunshine quick air


cross shelter, western areas, developing widely through the day.


Some eastern parts of England and Scotland could stay dull and grey


all day. Not so Northern Ireland, we should see a bit of sunshine


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