16/09/2014 Newsnight


16/09/2014

Live from the heartland of the No vote, a Scotland referendum special. With Emily Maitlis.


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This programme has flashing images s.

:00:00.:00:08.

Tonight live from Scotland, a noisy end to a long campaign.

:00:09.:00:16.

Ed Miliband is forced to bane done his walk about as chaos breaks out

:00:17.:00:20.

on the trail. Who has won this ground war? We ask Alastair

:00:21.:00:28.

Campbell, how would the world view us without Scotland. David Grossman

:00:29.:00:32.

goes looking for the rarest of creatures, the Scottish story. Here

:00:33.:00:36.

it is, the office of the last Conservative MP in Scotland. And the

:00:37.:00:42.

Scots and Gordies. If we rebuild the Roman wall and join up with the

:00:43.:00:46.

Scots, we will become the affluent south. Chris Donald wants the

:00:47.:01:00.

north-east to join Scotland. Good evening, tonight with two days

:01:01.:01:04.

of campaigning to go, we are in the shadow of St Andrew's church and the

:01:05.:01:09.

market town of Moffat. This constituency has what no other

:01:10.:01:13.

constituency has, a Scottish Tory MP. How powerful have the voices

:01:14.:01:19.

here been to the unionists. It may feel like the campaign has been

:01:20.:01:25.

going on forever. Here is proof you are right. The first debate about

:01:26.:01:28.

Scottish devolution took place 40 years ago. What would those voices

:01:29.:01:32.

have made of the claims and counter claims today, today the future of

:01:33.:01:38.

the NHS became the topic. Can either offer a manifesto that can be

:01:39.:01:42.

delivered. We will ask the studio audience in a minute and we will

:01:43.:01:45.

hear from Allegra Stratton about the credibility gap. First to Laura

:01:46.:01:51.

Kuensberg with the latest polls. You would have to have a blindfold

:01:52.:01:57.

on and fingers in your ears not to walk around and not realise that

:01:58.:02:04.

something is happening in Scotland. This h been tangible as a campaign

:02:05.:02:10.

more than in recent times W it has come a volatility and intensity that

:02:11.:02:14.

has made it hard to predict. Three new polls tonight all of which

:02:15.:02:18.

suggest that no to independence is narrowly in the lead on 52 and yes

:02:19.:02:25.

to a new and different country is just behind on 48. That, however,

:02:26.:02:30.

will not allow the unionist side to breathe easy, with these polls come

:02:31.:02:35.

two big fat caveats. They can't hope to begin to capture the new voters

:02:36.:02:40.

who have registered, perhaps as many as a million by some estimate, and

:02:41.:02:44.

the extraordinary turnout expected by all the pundits. Maybe as much as

:02:45.:02:49.

90%. The polls are not certain, in a way that we might normally consider

:02:50.:02:53.

them. But what might make the unionist side feel a bit easier

:02:54.:02:59.

tonight? Sleep a bit more restfully after everything that has in recent

:03:00.:03:02.

days is one very influential press baron. A certain Rupert Murdoch has

:03:03.:03:09.

come out in the Scottish Sun, not for independence, which he had been

:03:10.:03:13.

flirting with, but instead with a rather gruesome front page, mocking

:03:14.:03:21.

up Alastair Darling and Alex Salmond in X Factor and Britain's Got

:03:22.:03:26.

Talents photos and saying it is up to you Scotland. Politicians are all

:03:27.:03:30.

too aware this will be won vote by vote. Even with two days campaigning

:03:31.:03:35.

there is still a lot of hard work to do. A lot could change.

:03:36.:03:40.

Our political editor has been on the stump, tracking their every move.

:03:41.:03:47.

He once held power across all of Britain, but today the future of the

:03:48.:03:51.

United Kingdom seemed to rest in this plan's pledge to hand some of

:03:52.:03:53.

those powers away. David Cameron now this plan's pledge to hand some of

:03:54.:03:57.

won't be seen in Scotland until after the referendum. The pro-union

:03:58.:04:01.

push has been left in the hands of the locals.

:04:02.:04:05.

The three leaders of the main UK parties made it absolutely clear

:04:06.:04:09.

that there is now a timetable for more powers for the Scottish

:04:10.:04:12.

Parliament, that Scottish Parliament will be permanent and valued as part

:04:13.:04:17.

of the UK constitution, that Scotland will always be involved and

:04:18.:04:22.

engaged in the discussions about the future of the UK constitution. Some

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50 hours to go, no time for a novice and not time for novel ideas either,

:04:28.:04:33.

just the deal that Gordon Brown believes he brokered.

:04:34.:04:37.

This morning your special adviser said that over the last year you

:04:38.:04:40.

have wanted to talk to Ed Miliband and David Cameron about your ideas

:04:41.:04:43.

and they haven't picked up the phone, did that happen? I spoke to

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Ed Miliband a great deal. I have no issue. And David Cameron, has he not

:04:47.:04:51.

listened? I have been putting proposals and wrote a book about

:04:52.:04:55.

proposals for reform about the constitution. Did David Cameron

:04:56.:04:58.

listen to you sufficiently? They have now looked at the proposals in

:04:59.:05:02.

my book, today there is this letter in the Daily Record, a Scottish

:05:03.:05:06.

newspaper, last week there was an agreement on a timetable what has

:05:07.:05:08.

happened is all the parties have come together. A slightly lower key

:05:09.:05:15.

event down the road. To many people Charley Kennedy is the cavalry, is

:05:16.:05:19.

that right? No, I have been called a lot of things in my time, but that

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is a first. Whatever happens on Friday there is more powers going to

:05:24.:05:29.

Hollyrood, if it is going to be a meaningful institution, someone like

:05:30.:05:32.

you should want to get stuck in? How flattering. Behrami are having to

:05:33.:05:44.

use tter -- Better Together have to use characters like Charley Kennedy.

:05:45.:05:49.

They took to the Daily Record to set out the powers they will give to the

:05:50.:05:53.

Scottish people. They said it last week and now they feel they have to

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set it out in indelible ink. Trust in Westminster's politicians is also

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on trial on Thursday. We saw the pledge you signed today, a last

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desperate move to hold the Labour vote together? The Labour leader

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answered questions, but as campaigners of all colours encircled

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him and the media, he had to be ushered out.

:06:15.:06:23.

This was once a Labour heartland, indeed it was once a Labour shrine.

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Clyde Bank in Glasgow, where industrial strive in the 20s made

:06:34.:06:39.

the Labour Party. Yes campaigners tell us it is not an affluence area,

:06:40.:06:43.

something pollsters agree points towards a yes vote. Front page of

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the Daily Record has the three Westminster leaders talking about

:06:52.:06:55.

the powers? We are sick of the powers and the leaders, look at the

:06:56.:06:58.

state the country is in. We are fed up with the empty promises. If you

:06:59.:07:02.

had more powers would you change the country? Why not have more powers

:07:03.:07:06.

when we is can have our own power, we could have our own constitution,

:07:07.:07:11.

this is our time. This is our town. We followed them for half an hour,

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they are very optimistic on Thursday it is a yes vote. They say the

:07:15.:07:18.

promise this morning of more powers from the three Westminster party

:07:19.:07:21.

leaders won't make a bit of difference. The only guaranteed way

:07:22.:07:25.

of getting more powers for Scotland, the powers we need to protect our

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public service, create jobs make sure we never again get Tory

:07:29.:07:33.

Governments we don't vote for is to vote yes, to keep control of the

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future of this country where it is now, in our own hands. If we vote no

:07:37.:07:40.

we hand control of the future of Scotland straight back to the

:07:41.:07:42.

Westminster establishment and have to cross our fingers hoping for some

:07:43.:07:48.

crumbs from the Westminster table in the form of a new power here or

:07:49.:07:53.

there. That is not good enough, if we vote yes we have control of the

:07:54.:08:01.

powers we have here in Scotland. Tonight senior figures in the no

:08:02.:08:05.

camp are confident. Try telling it to this lot.

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Allegra Stratton with that report. As you can see we have a live

:08:12.:08:15.

audience here in Moffat. Last night, if you watched the show you remember

:08:16.:08:20.

we had more yes than no. Tonight to balance it out we have more no than

:08:21.:08:25.

yes and a few undecided scattered inbetween. We will have a show of

:08:26.:08:29.

hands and get thoughts on the way along. Someone who describes himself

:08:30.:08:33.

as British, Scottish and Yorkshire, in that order, and knows how to

:08:34.:08:36.

organise a ground war is Alastair Campbell, and we have Jeanne

:08:37.:08:41.

Freeman, former adviser to Jack McConnell, who promisingly describes

:08:42.:08:43.

herself as opinionated, good to have you here. You know what a good

:08:44.:08:47.

campaign looks and feels like from within, was this one? You would have

:08:48.:08:53.

to say in terms of what you call the ground war the yes campaign has put

:08:54.:08:57.

together a pretty formidable campaigning machine, you judge it by

:08:58.:09:02.

the outcome. And the fundamentals are what count. The reason why I do

:09:03.:09:06.

believe actually that the polls which are drifting back to the no

:09:07.:09:10.

campaign are going to be proved right, that no probably will win is

:09:11.:09:14.

a very, very big fundamental questions have not been answered.

:09:15.:09:18.

That is why you have so many undeciders. They are to me, a lot of

:09:19.:09:21.

them are people who are looking for a reason to vote yes, and they

:09:22.:09:24.

haven't been won over. Any lawyers here will know there is a Scottish

:09:25.:09:29.

verdict called "not proven", I think the case for independence has not

:09:30.:09:35.

been proven, but the risks of rep separation have been proven and that

:09:36.:09:38.

is why Alex Salmond's momentum has stalled. The report suggests that

:09:39.:09:41.

the money the yes campaign was spent on the ground, and the no spent it

:09:42.:09:47.

on the think tanks, the currency focus groups, and actually got the

:09:48.:09:50.

issues right, do you accept that? I hope the no campaign didn't spend

:09:51.:09:53.

any money on the focus group that told them to run that first ad, that

:09:54.:09:59.

most women in Scotland found astonishingly patronising, I hope

:10:00.:10:01.

they didn't waste their money on that. I think that the no examine is

:10:02.:10:06.

a top-down run campaign, it is largely run by the three unionist

:10:07.:10:18.

parties. Alastair Campbell and I agree on it, the yes campaign is a

:10:19.:10:23.

grassroots campaign and populated by people who haven't been in politics

:10:24.:10:26.

before. People not in political parties and doing this all for the

:10:27.:10:30.

first time. And ran a campaign, some have said of intimidation, that the

:10:31.:10:34.

no camp has been quieter because they haven't dared admit who they

:10:35.:10:39.

have been voting for? I think that is a piece of nonsense. Both no and

:10:40.:10:43.

yes have our own small number of folks who in the olden days would

:10:44.:10:47.

probably write letters in green ink and are now using this opportunity

:10:48.:10:51.

to express their frustrations and their annoyance, but the vast bulk

:10:52.:10:55.

of this campaign, and remember whilst it might be getting a lot of

:10:56.:11:02.

attention now, it is two years old and it is conducted with remarkable

:11:03.:11:07.

civility. On either side, would anyone say they felt intimidated by

:11:08.:11:12.

the way the campaign has been run, just a show of hands. So three

:11:13.:11:15.

people on the yes campaign, and one on the no campaign. Keep your hand

:11:16.:11:21.

up if you want to share your views how you felt. No-one, OK. Yes you

:11:22.:11:32.

have. I had a problem on a doorstep with somebody who took a violent

:11:33.:11:38.

exception to what I was saying and didn't like the message. You were

:11:39.:11:41.

spreading the message as a no campaigner? That's right. Has anyone

:11:42.:11:45.

here lied to a pollster during the course of this campaign. If you were

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called up, just raise your hand, I won't go any further, tell me, put

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your hand up if you have lied to a pollster about your position?

:11:55.:11:57.

No-one, that will be interesting. If that is representative then our

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polls are true. Alastair Campbell is this the closest battle you have

:12:03.:12:07.

ever seen? No, I don't think so. You have had, you go back to the Quebec

:12:08.:12:19.

referendum and others. It has been the most innovating and energised

:12:20.:12:22.

campaign I have seen, that is to the yes campaign's credit. They have got

:12:23.:12:26.

this, it is about big questions and fundamental questions. But as I said

:12:27.:12:30.

earlier, you have to judge a campaign on the outcome. They have

:12:31.:12:33.

closed the gap. The reason I think why they have been able to build

:12:34.:12:41.

this formidable ground examine is because -- campaign is the

:12:42.:12:47.

Westminster parties were slow about it and they have now managed to

:12:48.:12:51.

bring up the questions about the pound and NATO. Is this more

:12:52.:12:55.

important to you than the campaigns you ran for Tony Blair, more than

:12:56.:12:59.

1997 and winning for new Labour? That was a really big thing for us.

:13:00.:13:03.

As David Cameron said yesterday and lots of the party leaders have said,

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long after the leaders that we see on our TV screens today have gone,

:13:08.:13:12.

this vote on Thursday decides the future of this country and it is

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irreversible. I think that is another reason why the undecides

:13:18.:13:23.

have come back. It is the irreversibility of it, if you are

:13:24.:13:25.

going to take a decision such as changing the fundamental nature of

:13:26.:13:28.

your country you have to be sure. So many people are not sure, they don't

:13:29.:13:32.

know about the pound or Europe, or who will pay for their pensions. You

:13:33.:13:35.

have done that list already. It is better than talking about some old

:13:36.:13:40.

advert everyone has forgotten about. From a Labour perspective, you are

:13:41.:13:44.

pro-independence, when you look at Alex Salmond, is he the future of

:13:45.:13:47.

the country? I think independence is the future of the country. I'm not

:13:48.:13:53.

unique as a former Labour supporter, supporting independence. 42% and

:13:54.:13:56.

rising of Labour supporters are moving to independence. So let me

:13:57.:14:00.

just finish. How did you lose Labour? The reason for that is

:14:01.:14:03.

people are angry at Labour in Scotland, they are angry that we

:14:04.:14:06.

have one in four children in poverty, we have a million people

:14:07.:14:10.

living in poverty, and Labour has consistently broken promises. That

:14:11.:14:13.

is why no matter the pledge people will not trust that. Do you accept

:14:14.:14:19.

that? I STHAEP a lot of people here, and a lot of people in the United

:14:20.:14:24.

Kingdom. A lot of people in northern towns, in coastal towns and Kent,

:14:25.:14:27.

people feel hacked off with Westminster politics, it is not just

:14:28.:14:30.

a Scottish thing. What Alex Salmond is trying to persuade people, this

:14:31.:14:33.

is unique to Scotland and if you get rid of the UK Government

:14:34.:14:36.

everything's going to be perfect in Scotland. That is not true. That is

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not his argument. It is the politics of grievance the whole time. You

:14:42.:14:44.

have heard the arguments and probably many times, who here feels

:14:45.:14:48.

that they can believe the deal that has been set out for them by either

:14:49.:14:52.

side, whichever side you believe on the table, who feels that they

:14:53.:14:59.

trust, right, and you are no, so even though it hasn't been spelt out

:15:00.:15:03.

what will happen to income tax and corporation tax, you don't know, you

:15:04.:15:06.

are trusting they will offer the right powers or you don't want any

:15:07.:15:09.

new powers? The parties are offering different things. A specific

:15:10.:15:13.

timetable has been set out and we know exactly when it is going to

:15:14.:15:20.

happen. I was going to say the same thing. Let me say, the parties are

:15:21.:15:27.

going to make different proposals what this referendum has done is it

:15:28.:15:31.

has got the whole nature of British politics and constitution, how we do

:15:32.:15:34.

politics on to the agenda for the whole of the UK. What has happened

:15:35.:15:39.

is with two weeks to go suddenly the parties supporting the union have

:15:40.:15:42.

started treating this seriously. They were dismissing it right up

:15:43.:15:47.

until them. You are absolutely right, the three parties have three

:15:48.:15:50.

different things to offer. We can't possibly say if we vote no we vote

:15:51.:15:55.

with certainty. You are voting with certainty for fundamental change to

:15:56.:15:57.

the constitutional change. Labour offers the least of all. If we end

:15:58.:16:05.

up with the least common denominator it will be flittering around the

:16:06.:16:09.

edges of what we have already got and not worth the paper it is

:16:10.:16:14.

written on. Anyone undecided. Can I ask, if you don't mind answering

:16:15.:16:18.

this, what will change your mind in the next two days? You are going to

:16:19.:16:22.

vote any way, right. What will change it? I'm looking to hear

:16:23.:16:28.

arguments that feed what I'm looking for from an independent country. I

:16:29.:16:32.

think my instinct is for more power, more autonomy, but as a business

:16:33.:16:36.

person, actually it hasn't been made clear that the situation will

:16:37.:16:39.

actually help that side of my life. So it is balance between various

:16:40.:16:45.

different things. What do you all your, British without Scotland? You

:16:46.:16:48.

wrote very passionately today the order in which you identity? I think

:16:49.:16:54.

national identity is important for every individual, and it is

:16:55.:16:56.

changing. You see that in Scotland going around the streets here. I do

:16:57.:17:00.

feel British, then Scottish, then Yorkshire, and I feel English a

:17:01.:17:04.

long, long way behind that. And if the United Kingdom, the country that

:17:05.:17:08.

I live in separates from lots of my family who live here, so my brother

:17:09.:17:11.

will have a different passport to me, and I just feel that it is, Bill

:17:12.:17:16.

Clinton has put out a statement tonight and made a fantastic point

:17:17.:17:19.

were he goes through the issues about the pound, about the fact you

:17:20.:17:24.

will get more powers, but he makes the wonderful point that Scotland

:17:25.:17:27.

can show the world that it is possible to have differences with

:17:28.:17:30.

your neighbours but coexist peacefully. That is a brilliant

:17:31.:17:35.

explanation. So some are saying the yes campaign is about hating the

:17:36.:17:39.

English and Bill Clinton is saying something else? What built has said

:17:40.:17:46.

it is nonsense. I'm talking to Emily here, what is nonsense is the fact

:17:47.:17:50.

that those of us who support independence are anti-anybody. We

:17:51.:17:55.

are not the ones wandering around insisting we are patriotic Scots.

:17:56.:17:59.

Please. Bill Clinton, I agree, with independence we can prove that we

:18:00.:18:05.

can make the right decisions in Scotland and coexist happily with

:18:06.:18:09.

our neighbours. Ripping five countries apart, UK, Scotland,

:18:10.:18:11.

England and Wales and Northern Ireland. This is classic language,

:18:12.:18:18.

we are not ripping anything. In 48 hours the polls will have closed and

:18:19.:18:21.

we could be on the brink of the end of the United Kingdom, the five

:18:22.:18:24.

countries as we know it. It is fair to say that Britannia no longer

:18:25.:18:29.

rules the waves and hasn't for many decades. But how will the moment be

:18:30.:18:32.

seen in years to come and what is the rest of the world, looking on

:18:33.:18:37.

from afar, make of the concept of a new Britain if it happens?

:18:38.:18:46.

Neighbour, rivals, often enemies, before the Act of Union there was

:18:47.:18:51.

England and Scotland. As the age of empire dawned, both nations set sail

:18:52.:18:57.

to conquer the world, England found fertile territory in Virginia,

:18:58.:19:01.

Scotland's ambitions died after an ill-fated venture to Panama. After

:19:02.:19:04.

the failure of the new world, Scotland turned to the old enemy and

:19:05.:19:08.

the union was born. Although Scotland entered into the union from

:19:09.:19:12.

a position of weakness, the two nations united as equals and the

:19:13.:19:15.

United Kingdom went on to dominate the globe. The British Empire turned

:19:16.:19:21.

the map pink, everywhere the British Empire went Scots were in the

:19:22.:19:27.

vanguard. In India in 1792 Scots made up one in nine in civil

:19:28.:19:32.

servants and one in three army officers, Glasgow built the ships

:19:33.:19:35.

that ruled the waves for Britannia. But as the imperial tide turned, and

:19:36.:19:42.

as Britain's colonies one by one caught independence, some in

:19:43.:19:44.

Scotland also began to question their continued membership of the

:19:45.:19:49.

union. Far from seeing themselves as fellow colonialist, they felt

:19:50.:19:52.

themselves to be living in England's closest colony. By joining its lot

:19:53.:19:56.

with England, Scotland created the idea of the United Kingdom. If Scots

:19:57.:20:00.

vote yes on Thursday, without the tether of the original active union,

:20:01.:20:04.

could other parts of the British Isles feel their ties to the union

:20:05.:20:11.

also begin to loosen? Shakar Dayal Simon Schama is here,

:20:12.:20:20.

and Neal Ascherson. A warm welcome to both of you. I wonder if you

:20:21.:20:24.

shouldn't look at what might happen on Thursday as a natural unwinding

:20:25.:20:32.

of the British Empire? Well the natural histories of nations are

:20:33.:20:35.

almost a poetic thing, but they are very, very important. There is no

:20:36.:20:53.

timetable which goes from infancy to decrepitude, countries renew

:20:54.:20:59.

themselves. As has been said tonight there is a possible moment of

:21:00.:21:03.

renewal and re-think what Britain is. That is very important. I want

:21:04.:21:09.

to say one can wax sentimental about the history of Britain. I'm

:21:10.:21:13.

unapologetically not a romantic about Britain, but I'm not at all

:21:14.:21:17.

ashamed about what Britain has accomplished. Your little

:21:18.:21:21.

introductory session was all about empire, one has an immediate sense

:21:22.:21:34.

of an imperial culture in aspic. Sort of tiffin, chukka and mounties,

:21:35.:21:39.

but what this union produced was Adam Smith, David Hume, engineering,

:21:40.:21:45.

there are great elements of modernist dynamic qualities in our

:21:46.:21:50.

life that still go on. You either believe today, I think actually,

:21:51.:21:54.

that you want to live in countries in which you have just one-nation,

:21:55.:22:02.

by itself, or you are thrilled and excited by the possibility of living

:22:03.:22:08.

in a country with different, distinct, national cultures that

:22:09.:22:12.

share the same house. That's what those of us who are not apologetic

:22:13.:22:16.

about being British want to defend. Is it that sense of empire Neal, you

:22:17.:22:20.

think people on the independent side are wanting to get away from now?

:22:21.:22:25.

No, I really don't think it is. I mean it is there. The fact that

:22:26.:22:30.

people in great liberal newspapers in London can say what is taking

:22:31.:22:39.

place in Scotland is ethnic chauvinism, the Observer, can you

:22:40.:22:44.

believe it? If you scratch that underneath it is the relics of

:22:45.:22:48.

empire thinking. But no, there are much more important things to think

:22:49.:22:52.

about, which is, you know, what kind of Scotland? I mean the thing about

:22:53.:22:59.

voting yes for independence is it is not you know that you can produce a

:23:00.:23:04.

full menu of everything that's going to be done, independence is a

:23:05.:23:08.

gateway, you go through it, and then when you are through it then you ask

:23:09.:23:13.

yourself what kind of Scotland? That's what it is about, it is not

:23:14.:23:17.

about the break ago I way from an empire. I wonder if you think of

:23:18.:23:21.

nationalism nowadays as a dirty word? I certainly don't think of

:23:22.:23:26.

Scottish nationalism as a dirty word, it is true there is something

:23:27.:23:31.

to rejoice in a country which is talking to itself and talking to its

:23:32.:23:38.

neighbours about its own identity. I think actually the ferocious average

:23:39.:23:43.

nationalism, nationalisms which are by definition from the beginning

:23:44.:23:47.

warrior nationalisms and for all the size of the monuments of William

:23:48.:23:56.

Wallace that is not the case. One of the wonderful things about the

:23:57.:24:00.

campaign is it has in some way been about a national community. I

:24:01.:24:04.

actually celebrate that. I speak as an Englishman who is also British,

:24:05.:24:10.

and also Jewish as well like you, and we like to live, at least I like

:24:11.:24:16.

to live in a country, I won't presume for you, we like to live in

:24:17.:24:21.

a community where we have all these different places in our place of

:24:22.:24:26.

residence. Let me hand this to the audience. How many of you will call

:24:27.:24:30.

yourself a nationalist? No-one. That is interesting. No-one on the yes

:24:31.:24:35.

side would say that you feel nationalist. Would you all call

:24:36.:24:41.

yourself Scottish? Right, OK. Can I ask the same question about empire,

:24:42.:24:46.

when you think of empire, when I say the word "empire" who thinks of it

:24:47.:24:51.

with a sense of proud heritage? Can you keep your hand up if you can

:24:52.:24:54.

tell me why? Sir, you have had your hand up a couple of times, this

:24:55.:24:58.

gentleman on the yes side at the back. I think it has, the result of

:24:59.:25:04.

it has put a lot of people across the world together. And I grew up in

:25:05.:25:08.

Zimbabwe, for example, and feel part of something much bigger than just a

:25:09.:25:13.

country. It is a global community, if you like. And I think there is

:25:14.:25:19.

something exciting about that. And when you say it is a global

:25:20.:25:23.

community but you are voting yes, you are sitting on this side, you

:25:24.:25:26.

don't see any contradiction in that particularly? I suppose I'm in

:25:27.:25:33.

favour of unity rather than division and I think we have seen a lot of

:25:34.:25:40.

division in the world which has brought about a lot of tragic

:25:41.:25:44.

situations and I have come through one myself. I'm not saying Scotland

:25:45.:25:50.

is like Zimbabwe, it isn't at all, but I feel very weary of the

:25:51.:25:53.

uncertainty that may lie in front of us. Are you sure you have a yes

:25:54.:26:03.

badge on, you made the most eloquent case for no. Are you undecided? It

:26:04.:26:13.

is a no badge! The empire brought the rule of law to all sorts of

:26:14.:26:18.

places, which didn't have that and in Moffat we have John McAdam who

:26:19.:26:25.

invented the modern road surfaces, and he's buried in the churchyard

:26:26.:26:30.

behind you on the other side of the the high street, that is another

:26:31.:26:34.

sign of empire, he made it possible to get from A-B. There are empires

:26:35.:26:40.

of the mind too, not very far from Moffat, there was a statue of the

:26:41.:26:44.

scary but incredibly important Thomas Carlyle, one of the greatest

:26:45.:26:49.

historians of the 19th century. Apart from Ruskin and Dicken, Thomas

:26:50.:26:54.

Carlyle was the most-read Victorian author. Whatever you think of his

:26:55.:26:59.

extraordinarily foaming wild prose about the French Revolution, Carlyle

:27:00.:27:03.

said this to industrial Britain, "do not just be a nation of machinery,

:27:04.:27:09.

have a conscience, think about your Christian heritage". One thing I

:27:10.:27:13.

think one needs to be unapologetic about, as a union of different

:27:14.:27:18.

nations in Britain, it is the war we fought with our conscience against

:27:19.:27:23.

fascism. That was something. When you hear that line, do you hear

:27:24.:27:27.

somebody who is trying to sort of tug on the heartstrings and remind

:27:28.:27:31.

you of all that you have been through? Yes I do. I have to say.

:27:32.:27:38.

Becoming independent isn't done without loss. There is always

:27:39.:27:42.

something to pay, you know. And there is. It can be something small

:27:43.:27:51.

like losing a newspaper in a metropolitan language, it can be

:27:52.:27:58.

something much bigger. For me I have fought in Her Majesty's war, I have

:27:59.:28:04.

had to kill people on the order of Her Majesty, which I now bitterly

:28:05.:28:08.

regret. At the same time I still have a deep love for the people I

:28:09.:28:11.

fought with in the Royal Marines. And when I think you know the flag

:28:12.:28:18.

will no longer be my flag, it is a stab, but that is the price you pay.

:28:19.:28:24.

You go through the gate and to live in a better society, it has to be

:28:25.:28:29.

done. A quote from a former Italian Prime Minister who said it is not

:28:30.:28:32.

far fetched to compare the consequences of what this would mean

:28:33.:28:44.

to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Yes it is far fetched.

:28:45.:28:51.

Let's leave it there. Good try. Who feels that they are already living

:28:52.:28:59.

in a devolved nation? Who feels for the last 15 years you are already in

:29:00.:29:05.

a devolved nation, no? Who feels that more devolution, whatever the

:29:06.:29:10.

outcome is a good thing? More devolution is a good thing, more

:29:11.:29:13.

powers for Scotland is a good thing. Who doesn't want to see any more

:29:14.:29:22.

powers with Scotland. OK. I think it is about more powers for everyone.

:29:23.:29:25.

Not just Scotland. We are talking about the whole of the union, Great

:29:26.:29:29.

Britain, United Kingdom. So it is powers for everyone not just

:29:30.:29:32.

Scotland. And that is one of the reasons I'm voting no. And you are

:29:33.:29:36.

shaking your head there? Yes, because that is you know it is a

:29:37.:29:44.

noble, old song which has been empty of meaning, we have been there

:29:45.:29:48.

before and people have constantly tried to say Scotland seems to be

:29:49.:29:52.

moving away and doing naughty things, so let's make that process

:29:53.:29:55.

part of a general UK process, and then we will get it under control,

:29:56.:30:01.

what then happens is nothing. Who are these people? They are parts of

:30:02.:30:08.

Britain and northern England which really need self-Government, and

:30:09.:30:11.

they need it in many cases their position is worse than that of

:30:12.:30:16.

Scotland, much worse, actually. Scotland will have their own

:30:17.:30:21.

parliament. Does England need a parliament? I think it has to think

:30:22.:30:25.

about it. If you are putting me on the spot and asking do I think it

:30:26.:30:29.

would be a good idea, my feeling is yes. Mostly I think that the nature

:30:30.:30:36.

of Great Britain as a federal state needs to have as vigorous a

:30:37.:30:41.

discussion as happened in Scotland. Now you are presuming to talk to the

:30:42.:30:45.

English, Neal. You can't have a federation in which there are 55

:30:46.:30:49.

million of one partner and five the other. It can't work. Not all the

:30:50.:30:54.

provinces of Canada have equal population, of course it can work.

:30:55.:30:57.

The same is true of Switzerland as well. Of course it can work. That is

:30:58.:31:00.

because there are many, many partners in a federation. Here there

:31:01.:31:04.

is just three. There is a great deal of freedom and authority and power

:31:05.:31:08.

in the parts that are federal. Let me say one more thing. Are you

:31:09.:31:14.

saying whether it is small working together or with more powers it will

:31:15.:31:22.

always win out over big? No I think the United States with all its

:31:23.:31:25.

impossible conflicts shows that you can have a big power, providing it

:31:26.:31:32.

deinvolves a lot of authority in the state it comprises of. It depends on

:31:33.:31:37.

the quality of big and the quality of small. There is another thing

:31:38.:31:41.

about federation, a federation is a beautiful thing, but a federation

:31:42.:31:51.

that is simply hastily invented to head secession, isn't going to last.

:31:52.:31:56.

I agree with you about that. Doesn't it show if nothing else how quickly

:31:57.:32:00.

you can effect change if you want to? What does, I'm sorry? This whole

:32:01.:32:05.

campaign shows how quickly can you change things if you want to? If

:32:06.:32:10.

there is a no result there has to be a period in which frantic sweaty

:32:11.:32:16.

speculation settles down into honest detailed discussion of the future of

:32:17.:32:20.

Britain. That is not a bad thing. Thank you very much indeed. You have

:32:21.:32:31.

all heard the endangered species, the question is why, what happened,

:32:32.:32:36.

to the Conservatives who until the 1980s have flourished here. I name

:32:37.:32:44.

this ship Britannia. The dawn of the new Elizabethan age. When Britannia

:32:45.:32:49.

was launched on the Clyde, Scotland's Conservatives were

:32:50.:32:51.

approaching their high water mark. But the following general election

:32:52.:32:56.

in 1955, the party not only won a majority of Scottish seats, but also

:32:57.:33:00.

of votes and astonishing achievements. But not perhaps as

:33:01.:33:14.

Astonishing as when this was brought to Leith not a single seat was held

:33:15.:33:19.

here by the Conservatives, the party was wiped out. I travelled then with

:33:20.:33:24.

the new Conservative leader with William Hague, on his mission to

:33:25.:33:29.

rescue the Conservative Party. How will you revive the party? I

:33:30.:33:33.

have come to listen not lecture them. The Conservative Party needs

:33:34.:33:37.

to do a good deal of listening over the coming months. One of the people

:33:38.:33:41.

he was listening was Malcolm Rifkind, who had just lost his seat,

:33:42.:33:45.

he told me of his hopes for a swift recovery. 17 years later I visited

:33:46.:33:51.

Mr Rifkind again to remind him of his previous words and ask why it

:33:52.:33:57.

hasn't happened, he says the problem is not particularly Conservatism?

:33:58.:34:01.

People think the political divide is Scotland and England, it is not, it

:34:02.:34:04.

is north and south. North begins north of the Midlands. At the moment

:34:05.:34:08.

we have Conservative councillors in Edinburgh, Dundee, Glasgow,

:34:09.:34:12.

Aberdeen, there is not a single Conservative councillor in

:34:13.:34:14.

Liverpool, Newcastle or Manchester. The left have been much stronger and

:34:15.:34:18.

in Scotland that includes the nationalists. In Scotland, in Wales,

:34:19.:34:24.

in the north of England, the strength of the Tory Party is south

:34:25.:34:33.

of the Midlands. Scottish Conservatives found one of the most

:34:34.:34:37.

important cards they held, nationalism, no longer worked well

:34:38.:34:42.

in a Scottish context, because their brand of nationalism, unionism, was

:34:43.:34:46.

increasingly even as the antithesis of Scottishness.

:34:47.:34:50.

A Tory Government in Westminster without a majority in Scotland,

:34:51.:34:54.

allowed the other parties to further portray the Conservatives as an

:34:55.:34:58.

alien force. The narrative in the 1980s and it is worth rembering in

:34:59.:35:03.

1979 one in three Scots voted for Thatcher's Conservative Party, she

:35:04.:35:07.

was never as unpopular as mythology now dictates. But throughout the 80s

:35:08.:35:13.

Labour primarily and also the SNP argued that Thatcher had no mandate

:35:14.:35:16.

to govern Scotland because she didn't have a majority of the vote,

:35:17.:35:21.

even though she had 22 MPs. They chipped away over the 80s and 90s,

:35:22.:35:28.

with large sections of the press and civic Scotland on side, it

:35:29.:35:33.

culminates in 1997 when you have a Tory wipe-out and that argument that

:35:34.:35:37.

Tories have no place in Scotland appears to be vindicated. The impact

:35:38.:35:42.

was to weaken the case for a pooled Government of the political union,

:35:43.:35:45.

and a Conservative Prime Minister begging Scotland not to vote for

:35:46.:35:48.

independence simply to punish his party. I think people can feel it is

:35:49.:35:52.

a bit like a general election, that you make a decision and five years

:35:53.:35:56.

later you can make another decision if you are fete up with the "effing

:35:57.:36:02.

Tories" and we will give them a kick. This is totally different!

:36:03.:36:15.

The idea that Scotland is now a Tory-free zone is some what

:36:16.:36:18.

overdone, at the last general election the SNP got slightly shy of

:36:19.:36:28.

414,000, and Tories 410,000, their votes spread out all over the

:36:29.:36:32.

country. This sweet, the last one they managed to hang on. Their big

:36:33.:36:35.

enemy now, the Westminster voting system. If you live by the "first

:36:36.:36:42.

past the post" you sometimes die by it. We are in the same position as

:36:43.:36:48.

the liberal, once the SNP became the main alternative to Labour, for

:36:49.:36:51.

Westminster elections very difficult to be right at the top of the list

:36:52.:36:55.

when people come to vote. Here it is then. The office of the last

:36:56.:37:01.

Conservative MP in Scotland. For the moment at least. The party

:37:02.:37:08.

has done better in elections for the Scottish Parliament, only because

:37:09.:37:12.

they use a form of PR. Is there perhaps an enduring Scottish

:37:13.:37:16.

Conservative ideolgical legacy? Now independence is framed almost in

:37:17.:37:21.

Thatcherite terms, low corporation tax, low personal taxation,

:37:22.:37:29.

entrepenural and business-friendly, in that sense Thatcher and

:37:30.:37:33.

Conservative ideology continues even on the cusp of an independence

:37:34.:37:39.

referendum. What next then for Scotland's shrunken blue flock. That

:37:40.:37:43.

like everything else depends on what happens on Thursday.

:37:44.:37:53.

David Mundell is the last Conservative MP, and Alastair

:37:54.:37:56.

Campbell rejoins u we will hear from him as well. When David Cameron

:37:57.:38:04.

comes to Scotland and talks about the "effing Tories" how does that

:38:05.:38:08.

make you feel? The point is this referendum is the most important

:38:09.:38:10.

decision we will make about the future of Scotland, and it is not

:38:11.:38:14.

about an individual political party or David Cameron. He's slagging off

:38:15.:38:21.

your party? He's highlighting it isn't about the Conservative Party,

:38:22.:38:24.

whether or not people like it, it is not about the Labour Party or Ed

:38:25.:38:27.

Miliband. It is not an opinion poll. It is not a game. This is real, this

:38:28.:38:31.

is the biggest decision we will ever take and it shouldn't be based on

:38:32.:38:36.

things which are transitory. The fact he has said, not once but about

:38:37.:38:41.

three times, he keeps going on about how unpopular the Tories are here,

:38:42.:38:46.

why are they? I don't accept that the Tories are unpopular with

:38:47.:38:50.

certain groups within Scotland. But as David pointed out in the piece,

:38:51.:38:56.

over 400,000 people, one in six people voted Conservative in the

:38:57.:39:00.

general election. We got one in 59 MPs because of the electoral system,

:39:01.:39:06.

we accept that. But we have seen under Ruth Davidson our new leader

:39:07.:39:10.

in Scotland a bit of a resurgence in the party. This was the only part of

:39:11.:39:20.

the U king Dom where -- United Kingdom whose vote went up in the

:39:21.:39:23.

European elections. When David Cameron turns up is it an asset for

:39:24.:39:26.

you? I think it is very important the Prime Minister of the United

:39:27.:39:30.

Kingdom comes to Scotland. I didn't hear you say yes? He is an asset and

:39:31.:39:35.

he was here in Moffat recently and well received. Is he on your

:39:36.:39:38.

literature, do you talk about David Cameron when you knock on doors? Of

:39:39.:39:42.

course I do. I supported David Cameron for the leadership of the UK

:39:43.:39:47.

Conservative Party, but also within Scotland we have our own leader in

:39:48.:39:52.

Ruth Davidson. One of the identified stars of this referendum campaign,

:39:53.:39:56.

somebody who has been very passionate about the United Kingdom

:39:57.:39:59.

and somebody who is not a stereotypical Tory in the way that

:40:00.:40:03.

people try to portray us. His Government in 1997 wiped you out,

:40:04.:40:06.

and since then the only comeback you have got is you, with the best will

:40:07.:40:12.

in the world. You are the only resurgent story since 1997. My

:40:13.:40:16.

question is under a devolved and independent Scotland, could you

:40:17.:40:20.

start all over again. Could it be beneficial for the Tories? Let's not

:40:21.:40:28.

forget we have 15 MSPs and an MEP. So you don't have a problem in

:40:29.:40:33.

Scotland? We have to grow in Scotland, and under Ruth's

:40:34.:40:36.

leadership, she has been the game-changer in relation to more

:40:37.:40:39.

powers, it was a fact that the Conservatives came out with

:40:40.:40:42.

devolving income tax to the Scottish Parliament back in May, not just two

:40:43.:40:46.

weeks ago, back in May, that has been a real game-changer in terms of

:40:47.:40:51.

the powers debate. What do you think the effect of the Conservatives has

:40:52.:40:55.

been on this campaign? I do agree I think Ruth Davies has been a very

:40:56.:40:58.

effective campaigner. I have been impressed by what I have seen of

:40:59.:41:01.

her. And I think she has made a very, very good case for the union.

:41:02.:41:05.

To be absolutely frank, wrong there has been enough that have in this

:41:06.:41:09.

campaign. I actually, I'm probably in a minority in this, and I know

:41:10.:41:13.

there has been a view that you should keep Cameron away because the

:41:14.:41:20.

Tories are a bit toxic, I spoke to George Osborne a few weeks ago and I

:41:21.:41:25.

said when he came up here and made the economic case for the country

:41:26.:41:28.

staying together, he moved the dial and then he made the case and flew

:41:29.:41:33.

back straight away. He FLILTed in and FLILTed out according to Alex

:41:34.:41:37.

Salmond. What should he have done? I believe there should have been a

:41:38.:41:40.

more concerted argument by all of the mainstream parties and the

:41:41.:41:43.

anti-nationalist parties. Some people would say you are living in a

:41:44.:41:48.

dream world, you think that the no and Better Together campaign has won

:41:49.:41:53.

a good ground war and sold their arguments well? No, what I'm saying

:41:54.:41:57.

is I think, look, politicians like Ed Miliband got a bit of a knock

:41:58.:42:01.

about today, politicians have to show they are really passionate and

:42:02.:42:04.

care about an argument. To be frank, I don't think that the Conservative

:42:05.:42:07.

Party in Westminster has done enough to show that they really, really

:42:08.:42:13.

care for the union. I think Ruth Davies has in this campaign. Do you

:42:14.:42:19.

regret the Blair Government started the whole devolution bandwagon? I

:42:20.:42:22.

don't think so, it is clear what people in Scotland wanted. I think

:42:23.:42:25.

the Conservatives made a mistake not in terms of making a principled

:42:26.:42:31.

opposition to devolution, but for seeming to block it. I think it was

:42:32.:42:35.

clear it had become the settled will of the Scottish people, now we have

:42:36.:42:38.

to work to make it work better. One of the things that has come out of

:42:39.:42:41.

it. So if it is independence and that is the will of the Scottish

:42:42.:42:44.

people, that is fine too according to your logic? It is not fine,

:42:45.:42:48.

because I'm arguing for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. I will

:42:49.:42:53.

do that until 10.00 on the 18th. If the people of Scotland decide they

:42:54.:42:56.

want to be independent from the rest of the United Kingdom, that is their

:42:57.:43:01.

verdict and we will work to make it work. You have nothing but praise

:43:02.:43:04.

for the way David Cameron has handled the campaign then? I

:43:05.:43:07.

wouldn't say, that I do think one of the reasons why it has got as close

:43:08.:43:13.

as it has is because Simon ran rings around Cameron in the negotiations

:43:14.:43:18.

for the referendum. I think that the argument has not been made

:43:19.:43:21.

passionately enough up until now I think when we look back on this

:43:22.:43:26.

campaign, that opinion poll, it is ridiculous that it should taken a

:43:27.:43:30.

opinion poll to galvanise people. But that YouGov poll ten days ago or

:43:31.:43:35.

whatever, suddenly the business community who kept their heads down

:43:36.:43:39.

hoping not to get engaged and the Westminster parties thinking this is

:43:40.:43:42.

close and we have to get stuck in properly and do this properly and

:43:43.:43:45.

then engage in a way. The last ten days FLOOENG the debate in here has

:43:46.:43:49.

been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much indeed. 30 miles that way

:43:50.:43:55.

lies the border with England, a border that by Thursday that could

:43:56.:43:58.

have a whole new significance if tax is set by a new independent Scotland

:43:59.:44:02.

and corporation rates and levies are lowered this side. How will that

:44:03.:44:06.

affect the business decisions of all those living a short car ride away.

:44:07.:44:18.

By train Newcastle is three hours from London but only an

:44:19.:44:21.

hour-and-a-half from Edinburgh. Whatever the result of this vote is

:44:22.:44:24.

Scotland will have new powers. That could have a big effect on the

:44:25.:44:32.

economy in the north-east. Local businesses are still working out the

:44:33.:44:37.

format. But even if there is a no vote new tax powers for Scotland

:44:38.:44:41.

could affect north eastern firms. What if there are changes in

:44:42.:44:45.

corporation tax, which companies will be here in the north-east will

:44:46.:44:49.

be attracted for those reasons to go up to Scotland? What if they have

:44:50.:44:56.

special powers to incentivise inward investment, next time a Nissan, who

:44:57.:45:01.

are based on Sunderland, comes along, or Hitachi in Durham, vital

:45:02.:45:04.

to our economy, will they come here or Scotland. What about air

:45:05.:45:12.

passenger duty what if they manage to lower their's, who will fly out

:45:13.:45:16.

of Newcastle airport. There is a feeling whatever Scotland decides

:45:17.:45:20.

will have influence here. But that local people haven't been asked for

:45:21.:45:27.

their views. We have the editor of Viz. It's like if your neighbour

:45:28.:45:31.

gets a colour television in the 1960s, and you start looking through

:45:32.:45:36.

the window and going they have a colour telly, or your neighbour gets

:45:37.:45:40.

a car or phone and you think you need those, because we are a bit

:45:41.:45:45.

neglected. Scotland is neglected by London and so are we, but the

:45:46.:45:49.

landlord is saying you can buy your house if you want, you can take on

:45:50.:45:53.

the mortgage and all the responsibility and you can go away

:45:54.:45:56.

and look after it yourself, and we are sort of thinking maybe we should

:45:57.:46:02.

do that as well. I have an artist's impression of how I envisage the

:46:03.:46:07.

future. Basically reinstating the Roman wall and what we have is a

:46:08.:46:13.

slab racial between the jocks and the Gordies, from London we are

:46:14.:46:18.

viewed as the desolate north, if we rebuild the Roman wall and join up

:46:19.:46:23.

with the Scots, then we will become the affluent south! Historically the

:46:24.:46:28.

River Tyne has always been at the heart of the Newcastle economy. That

:46:29.:46:31.

is still the case today. Unemployment up here in the

:46:32.:46:33.

north-east is higher than any other part in the UK. Things have been

:46:34.:46:37.

getting better, in the last year employment growth has been faster in

:46:38.:46:42.

this region than anywhere else. But developments in Scotland threaten

:46:43.:46:45.

this region than anywhere else. But blow this recovery completely off

:46:46.:46:45.

course. You blow this recovery completely off

:46:46.:46:51.

in here? We have, there is a vast range of businesses that take space

:46:52.:46:57.

in the yard. Charley Holt of Holt's Yard just outside the centre of

:46:58.:47:00.

Newcastle thinks the fears are overblown? We have a yard here full

:47:01.:47:06.

of 90 small businesses, but all of them export, all of them look

:47:07.:47:10.

overseas. You know there is a guy who sells trainers on the Internet,

:47:11.:47:16.

you look at his DHL book, 75% are going overseas, you look at the guys

:47:17.:47:20.

designing T-shirts, half of the business is in Europe and half in

:47:21.:47:24.

the US, and a bit in the UK. Small businesses are now international.

:47:25.:47:28.

The small businesses that rent this yard are a north eastern success

:47:29.:47:32.

story, but what is happening just across the border in Scotland could

:47:33.:47:36.

put it all at risk, independence, or even devolution is often seen as a

:47:37.:47:39.

political and constitutional question. But it could have a huge

:47:40.:47:45.

economic impact. I didn't really appreciate until quite recently the

:47:46.:47:51.

economic impact. I didn't really range of powers they may get. Jeremy

:47:52.:47:54.

Middleton thinks the north has to start preparing now, whichever

:47:55.:47:57.

Middleton thinks the north has to the vote goes. Those responsible for

:47:58.:48:00.

economic development in the north of England, that is the Local

:48:01.:48:02.

Enterprise Partnerships, who also represent all of local Government,

:48:03.:48:05.

need to be talking to the Government in Scotland and the Government in

:48:06.:48:09.

Westminster. Let's work together to get a solution that will build both

:48:10.:48:12.

our economies. Let's not start a trade war. Let's not start fighting

:48:13.:48:21.

with each other. The people of Scotland will decide their future

:48:22.:48:24.

this week, but the debate about the future of the north is just

:48:25.:48:28.

beginning. As I mentioned at the very

:48:29.:48:33.

beginning, talks that began some 40 years ago today will end this week.

:48:34.:48:36.

Isabel Hardman of the Spectator and Richard Walker of the Sunday Herald

:48:37.:48:40.

are seeing it through to pretty much the bitter end. It is very

:48:41.:48:44.

interesting that your paper is the only one, am I right Richard, the

:48:45.:48:48.

Sunday Herald is the only one that has come out in favour of a yes

:48:49.:48:53.

vote? That's correct. Isn't that extraordinary that this whole

:48:54.:48:57.

campaign will have been waged without the media seeming to have

:48:58.:49:01.

split at all? I think it is, that is one of the reasons why Alex Salmond

:49:02.:49:05.

has developed this persecution complex, that all the media are

:49:06.:49:09.

against him. That is quite effective for SNP supporters to feel that

:49:10.:49:13.

everyone is against them, because it galvanises them to campaign harder

:49:14.:49:18.

and fight heard. It is the same with all insurgent parties, UKIP, the

:49:19.:49:21.

Liberal Democrats when they were an insurgent party too, they had the

:49:22.:49:24.

complex that the world was against them and they had to band and stick

:49:25.:49:27.

together. What do you think it says, without being too much of a naval

:49:28.:49:32.

gazer here, that all the media seem to be on one side, does it suggest

:49:33.:49:36.

they are completely out of step with public opinion? I can only speak for

:49:37.:49:41.

the spectator, we are passionately pro-union because we believe in the

:49:42.:49:44.

union and our readers believe in the union. As for Scottish media... I

:49:45.:49:50.

think it is odd, I think it is odd that even in most polls suggesting

:49:51.:49:56.

around about 48-54% of the population support independence, and

:49:57.:50:00.

only one newspaper is on those people's side, I think there is

:50:01.:50:03.

democratic deficit there definitely. Do you feel the yes campaign has

:50:04.:50:07.

just come off the boil at this point. The polls that sent everyone

:50:08.:50:11.

into such a frenzy ten days ago now seem to be sort of softening a bit

:50:12.:50:15.

don't they? I don't think they have come off the boil at all. I think

:50:16.:50:20.

the country is so engaged in this debate, which has just been the most

:50:21.:50:24.

fantastic debate I have seen in this country. I think you have got polls

:50:25.:50:28.

that put it up two points or down two points, out in the streets you

:50:29.:50:32.

see the yes campaigners passionately arguing their case. You don't see so

:50:33.:50:40.

many no campaigners out there, in Glasgow on Saturday the whole of the

:50:41.:50:44.

street was taken over by yes campaigners, there was almost a

:50:45.:50:48.

carnival-like atmosphere, bands playing. What do you do with 48

:50:49.:50:52.

hours, if you are the Better Together campaign now, what are your

:50:53.:50:55.

parting shots do you think? I don't think they should be parting shots,

:50:56.:50:58.

it is about the positive case for the union. Making people feel they

:50:59.:51:02.

are making a positive decision to vote no, rather than they are just

:51:03.:51:07.

being kill joys. That is what is important. Did you agree with

:51:08.:51:10.

Alastair Campbell, I don't know if you heard that, broadly George

:51:11.:51:13.

Osborne should have come up here, stayed up here and carried on making

:51:14.:51:17.

the point. It wasn't about the head versus the heart campaign at all?

:51:18.:51:21.

The heart campaign is really important and I'm not sure there has

:51:22.:51:25.

been enough of that, enough of the positive case for the United Kingdom

:51:26.:51:28.

as a whole and what it has achieved. We have only seen that coming from

:51:29.:51:32.

the Westminster parties in the last few week, I'm not sure they have

:51:33.:51:36.

given enough time on that. I don't think the Westminster parties

:51:37.:51:39.

understand the difference between a negative and political campaign, at

:51:40.:51:45.

the very start of the campaign we had a chat with Alasdair Darling and

:51:46.:51:51.

about it being negative? He said no way we have wage add very positive

:51:52.:51:55.

campaign and he was saying the same last week. I don't know anyone who

:51:56.:52:00.

can look at the campaign and say it was not positive. Their strategy has

:52:01.:52:05.

been to maintain a poll lead rather than expand the case, that has been

:52:06.:52:11.

an an error. That your for the warm welcome in Moffat and to all who

:52:12.:52:16.

came, the studio audience with us. Tomorrow night the Newsnight tent

:52:17.:52:19.

moves on to Glasgow, we bring you the final day of coverage before

:52:20.:52:23.

polls close. And we would also try to bring together as many of the

:52:24.:52:29.

still undecided voters as we possibly can before Scotland goes to

:52:30.:52:33.

the polls and votes in the historic Reverend DHAUM could -- referendum

:52:34.:52:42.

that could change the lives of everyone. We are joined by our Ceile

:52:43.:52:48.

band now. Sweet dreams. The low cloud from the east

:52:49.:53:44.

overnight, many places starting off grey and misty, sunshine quick air

:53:45.:53:48.

cross shelter, western areas, developing widely through the day.

:53:49.:53:51.

Some eastern parts of England and Scotland could stay dull and grey

:53:52.:53:56.

all day. Not so Northern Ireland, we should see a bit of sunshine

:53:57.:53:57.

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