17/09/2014 Newsnight


On the eve of the Scottish independence referendum, a special programme live from Glasgow. Presented by Emily Maitlis.

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It's over. So should Scotland become an independent country? Tomorrow


Scotland decides. The only answer for Scotland's sake, and for


Scotland's future, is vote no. Don't let them tell us we can't.


Let's do this now. For me it will go up to the wire, it will be right in


the ballot booth with the paper in front of me. I change my mind on an


hourly basis. Here we have Scotland's most precious natural


resource, the undecided voter, what will they hear tonight to swing it.


Hello and good evening. After two years, endless speeches and copious


column inch, you would think it is all done, but incredibly this


referendum now rests in the hands of a mere 300,000 or so people, the one


who is still haven't made their mind up. They are a coveted commodity, we


have three of them here in Glasgow tonight, all registered to vote,


tonight they will hear the arguments of the big beasts and the layman,


and by the time the show is over we will ask them if they know which way


they will go. I took Anne-Marie, a school teacher into the centre of


Glasgow, she's still undecided as to how to place her vote tomorrow.


For me it is right up to the wire, right in the ballot booth with the


paper in front of me. I'm still changing my mind on an hourly basis.


Why has it been so hard? Because new things come to light. We have had


the revelation that these companies might be moving out of Scotland,


about we don't know what currency we are going to use, it is such a


momentous decision to make, I want to make the right choice for my


family and my family. If it was my heart I would vote for, I would make


a yes vote, because I believe that Scottish people have the


intelligence and the power and the wit to be able to control their own


finances, but by the same token I don't think all the information that


we should have to make that informed choice has been given to us.


If you walk around the streets of Glasgow you will see more signs for


yes, you will definitely see more people standing outside of stores,


as we did at the weekend, that were actively trying to get our vote as


yes. And there wasn't so much negativity. I haven't seen any no. I


would have liked to have had their viewpoint as well. It hasn't


happened. As we stand here, tonight, the eve


of polling day, you genuinely don't know where you are going to put your


cross tomorrow? I genuinely don't know. I think I will need to hear


the rest of the argument tonight, sleepen to and tomorrow morning,


when I go in that booth it will be a very personal one-on-one decision.


Anne-Marie is with us and a couple of other undecides, Lindsay you


heard the thoughts there, why has it been so hard? It has been immensely


difficult, it is an emotive issue and a lot of people might have


in-built hunch about which way they might be voting but there is a lot


of important information out there that I think people have a duty to


consider. So it is a lot to A lot of it is just going out and


talking to people on the street, that is the most positive thing,


people are talking to you on the street and in the shops and that is


great. We have the noes on this side and the yeses on this side, with the


greatest respect they are looking at you and saying Jason, when are you


going to do it, what will change it? Well, if I can hear one concise and


definitive argument either way I could be swayed. I have said I'm


swaying more to my left on to the yes side, but right now it has been


for every argument on either side there has been another trumping it


on the other. For the longest time I was a staunch no, because I work in


finance and I was afraid that if I did vote for an independent Scotland


I wouldn't get to live in it and I would have to move down south. But


for me that is eroded by the fact that the Scottish people should be


deciding their own fate. Let me just see a show of hands, who here has


come to their decision in the last month? What was it, was it one


thing, a combination of things? I think it was several factors


throughout the country. There has been some aspects with my friends


and family, but I think more on a personal level. The First Minister I


feel his arguments have been a bit wavering but solid in the most. I


feel he's very clear and concise as to what his view for the future of


Scotland is. Granted it may take a while to achieve, but I feel if we


give him a chance it would happen. And has anyone gone against their


families' wishes to sit on the side of the room that they are? I'm


definitely voting no and my mother is voting yes. Cathy we will hear


from her in a second. Was that difficult? Very difficult, there was


a few words crossed in the car on the journey here tonight. But


afterwards we will both do our best for the people of Scotland. Cathy we


can't let that one go, what did you say to him? I'm trying to keep calm.


But I really think it is wonderful that we have different points of


view. But having said that Gary knows that I have been an


antipoverty campaigner for the past 30 years, and I have both


experienced and witnessed human suffering and hardship on a scale I


never thought I would ever see it in my lifetime. Except perhaps in times


of war. And let me finish, during that set of years since the time of


Thatcher, I have seen successive Governments turning their


parliamentary so called democracy and so called management of the


institution to service the rich and all their cronies. There is a lot of


nodding heads here. (Applause) we will come back to some of those


points. Thank you very much indeed. There are some still clearly hungry


to hear more. For others tomorrow can't come soon enough. We followed


the last day of the campaign here in Glasgow.


Hopes and fears but the talking is finally done. Yet the decision is


still to make. Every handshake can mean something. Every snap of this


moment when everything might change. This is it, the last push for this


man and these people's dreams, but still with just a few hours before


the polling stations open, there are still thousands of undecided voters


around the country. And the case for independence has


been put in places where politicians have hardly gone for so long. Here


on the edge of Glasgow there are still votes to be won. I'm still


undecided yet. I will decide tomorrow. A lot of traditional


Labour Party supporters like myself that feel that they forgot about us


and abandoned us, since Tony Blair got in, it is so hard to


differentiate the policies between the Tories and the Labour Party, I


don't support the SNP, I don't like the SNP but it is a protest the


Labour Party have done nothing for us. It never mattered until


recently, seeing the possibility of going independent and doing things


totally differently is what has made a lot of people really passionate.


My family worry about it. You are worried about them? In case they get


their own way. There is no coming back. But alongside new belief and


disillusion, thoughts of a new country have stirred old divides. I


think it is extremist views that are rooted in history that isn't


necessary rooted in a present or a future. That's been a challenge to


be around those conversations that are about what we have been or what


happened a long time ago rather than who we are now and what we're moving


towards. I think in the last couple of years things have increased on an


anxiety level and worrying about the change impacting their family. You


are going for Better Together, wonderful news. In Aberdeen the


last-minute scramble is real. New volunteers still coming forward for


no. Even on a free period from school. I first got involved 10-12


days ago, you know when the polls looked close. Please welcome the one


and only Gordon Brown. Their campaign has in the last few days


found a new hero, Gordon Brown rediscovering his strongest voice.


Could this be the appeal that wins undecided around. Let us tell the


NAILSs nationalists, this is not their country, their polls their


streets, this is everyone's culture, everyone's country and everyone's


streets. But independence campaigners have already travelled


further than their opponents ever imagined, whether in the central


belt, towns or streets, or the farms of Perthshire. I can taste it, I can


genuinely taste it. It is wafer thin, it is absolutely every single


vote will count. And I can feel it, there is a mood in Scotland that I


have never felt. I have been a yes vote, we are going to need to take


the real struggle forward and that will be on the no side. Further can


mean fury, tomorrow Scots will decide. But this political enner


ghee, can you almost touch might not find an easy home. Ergy, can


We speak to Tom Hunter, the first ever Scottish billion hair, and the


presenter of Coast, Neil Oliver. You have some sympathy with the


undeciders? I have total sympathy, because when the referendum was


announced we decided it was far too an important decision to leave to


the politicians alone to inform us. Therefore we went round the world,


got the biggest brains, with no side in this decide, and made it


available to the voters of Scotland to say we are not trying to convince


you to vote the way I'm voting, I'm not trying to convince you of my


point of view, I'm trying to say here are some facts, no spin, you


make up your own mind. You wield a lot of influence in this country,


once you knew which way you wanted to go, didn't you want to sway


people? No, I have a vote same as everyone else, that weighed heavy on


my shoulders and I'm not saying. Who thinks they voted with their heart,


go on? For me it is quite simple, the decision we have to make some is


about who gets to make the choices as to how Scotland is run. And it


should be the people who live and work in Scotland. It was never about


particular policies or anything of that sort, it is who gets to make


the choice? Did you look at the fine print, did you look at the detail


and read it all? Absolutely I went to a meeting this week and I was in


the presence Professor Ronald McDonald, an economist, Google him


if you haven't heard of him. From Glasgow University and he spelt out


clearly as an academic not a politician what is at stake for this


clearly as an academic not a sawn off barrel of a


clearly as an academic not a economic disaster if this goes


wrong. We will have a brain drain, and a flight of the able leaving the


rest of us behind and that worries me, that wasn't a politician.


(Applause) The language has been very passionate from both sides. Do


you think this has been a rational decision for you, an emotional one?


I'm not a political animal at all, and I will be honest with you and


say that the economic arguments I'm completely confounded by. Because


every question that's asked receives two completely different and often


completely contrasting answers. And for me, it has always been a simple


question. I find that the offering from the yes camp is un-Scottish to


me. In that it jars with my sense of what Scotland was, the Scotland I


grew up in. I say that because my work has taken me around a lot of


Britain, I have spent a lot of time travelling around


Britain, I have spent a lot of time again and again. And I'm as offended


by the thought of a family dependant on a foodbank in Bradford as I am of


a family dependant on a foodbank in Glasgow. And I'm horrified and


ashamed by the thought any of child going to bed cold and hungry, be it


Plymouth, Cardiff or Elgin. I find it difficult to see any nobility in


turning our backs on large part of our family, our family of nations


and saying well we can make it good for ourselves, and the other people


will be left behind. I find that jars with what I was brought up to


believe as a Scot. There is a lot of shaking heads in this corner, we


will come to you in a second. Fiona you have been called un-Scottish for


voting yes? Not that I have done it yet. I think the other way of


looking at it is surely there is no doubt the fact that Scotland has had


this discussion and the run up to the referendum has meant that


England is now starting to wake up to the fact that they need to sort


themselves out, they haven't got a parliament, why don't they have a


parliament. There is something very true in what you say in that for a


long time, for generations really there has been a decline in people


having a sense of the value of their vote, and if this referendum has


done anything it has been to prove that every single vote counts and


the vote is a very powerful gift, a very powerful privilege. There is no


doubting that, if 97% of the electorate in Scotland who are


eligible to vote have signed up to vote and if they do vote that will


be the biggest turnout since the Second World War. The problems of


Britain, we all agree there are problems Britain-wide, there are


things that need to be fixed and poverty that needs to be addressed


and opportunities not taken. If 97% of the UK population sign up and


vote and take part in debate, we can fix Britain. And Scotland used to


be... (applause) Let's hear from the yes people, who thinks Scotland has


been change bid this, whatever the outcome? Scotland has been changed


you can see it everywhereywhere. I'm disappointed in you, I love your


programme, I don't know if you have lived in the Scottish townships or


the food banks, I think you should go there, for the past 50 years, I'm


just officially a pensioner, I have lived around here for 60 years. I'm


not being rude, I need to bring other voices. Billy you want to make


a point, and then we will come back to the panel as well.


Absolutely, I don't believe by becoming independent we are turning


our backs on anyone (applause) because the simple fact of the


matter is that Britain still wants to rule the world. Scotland wants to


lead the world. And we can and we have done. Many times. Earlier Laura


Kuensberg caught up with a man who more than anyone else has brought


the union to the edge of this historic moment, Alex Salmond, she


began by asking him about how the divisions opened up in Scottish


society and how they would be healed? Are you concerned about the


passion on both sides creating divisions, and we have spoken to


many voters on both sides who are extremely worried about what might


happen on Friday. I tell you what, this is the most empowering,


enlivening, democratic participation I have ever seen in Scottish


politics and UK politics, probably in the west of Europe. It is a


fantastic wonderful debate. You will always get a few idiots on either


side. For many ordinary people it is more than a few idiots it is real


concerns about division? I was going to finish the point, it was one or


two people on either side will always have bad behaviour, that has


to be condemned on or offline. Let's remember 99% of those participating


in the campaign are behaving impeccable. Let's understand when


you have democratic participation and people queueing to register to


vote, to take interest in the political process for the first time


in their lives, this is a wonderful, empowering thing. It is a


celebration of democracy, we're going to have on Thursday and on


Friday there stops being a no or yes campaign, there will be one


campaign, Team Scotland, I as First Minister will draw that together, it


is Team Scotland going forward. That not with standing, there are many


ordinary people we have spoken to, many of whom participating in


politics for the first time, which has to be a positive, who are


worried about their communities being divided. There is a high


anxiety level in many places? There is a discussion and a debate, a


wonderful debate taking place in Scotland. But everybody of course


will accept the result. That is what democracy is about, then we will


move forward. If you ask people, look, the day after this, do we stop


being the yes and no camp and only a Team Scotland, they will say


absolutely, as First Minister I have a responsibility to draw that


together. I was delighted when Alastair Carmichael that he would


see it his obligation for resigning as Scottish Secretary and joining


the camp. In victory magnaminty, that will draw us together and will


succeed. You and colleagues have said repeatedly that this is about


Scotland getting the Government they chose rather than one imposed on


them. After the last 17 years, for the last 13 Scotland voted Labour


and got Labour. Are you not creating a false premise that Scotland


doesn't get what they vote for. I'm 59 years old, so older than you, I


don't look it I know. For more than half of my 59 years Scotland has


voted in one direction and a Tory Prime Minister is imposed upon us.


If we take that sweep of 59 years and a reasonable amount of time.


That is the democratic process. It is not the democratic process in


Scotland. It is not democratic to have a situation where we have one


member of parliament, David Cameron, is the Tory Prime Minister. For 13


out of the last 17 years Scotland has had who they have chance. If you


go out in Scotland and ask the vast number of people if they think it is


democratically acceptable to have story Governments in London and one


MP in Scotland they will say no it is not. One of the big motivations


in the yes vote, particularly among Labour people who normally


in the yes vote, particularly among the Labour Party, this is definite,


in each and every election in an independent Scotland that Scotland


will have the Government that we vote for, not the Government that we


vote for not anything else. Are you looking forward to it? This is a


once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I have absolute confidence tomorrow.


The reason I say it is once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, as


we know Mr Cameron only agreed it because they shout thought they were


a shoe-in for a no vote. That is why it is a once-in-a-lifetime


opportunity to take Scotland's future into Scotland's hands. Thank


you very much indeed. Great pleasure.


Alex Salmond during the course of this campaign. Lindsay, does he do


it for you, he is push or pull factor when you listen to him? For


me the debate isn't about Alex Salmond and I think a lot of the


focus on Alex Salmond has been a bit of day version tactic. (Applause)


and the yes campaign is a lot broader to me, you know, than just


Alex Salmond. It incorporates the Greens, the National Collective,


Women for Independent, English Scots for Independence. For me it is not


about Alex Salmond, for me the most exciting thing is the possibility of


having equal equality and human rights through there, and I wonder


about that in Westminster where the three parties are indistinguishable


and untrustworthy. You don't like Alex Salmond do you? You are voting


yes? When I was first making my decisions you know I couldn't avoid


it, I couldn't you know extract the image of Alex Salmond from you know,


if you have reached a point in this campaign where you think it is an


opportunity whether you have to pledge allegiance to nationalism or


Alex Salmond you have missed the points. It is people like Patrick


Harvey and Russell Brand who have more influence in this debate.


Politicians don't represent us, working people, they represent


millionaires. We have heard from Gordon Brown


suddenly in the last ten days, has that been a factor? Since you


mentioned Alex Salmond and whether or not you like him, what I would


like to mention is that he keeps talking about our children, our


future, Alex Salmond doesn't have any children, Nicola Sturgeon


doesn't have children, how can they talk about kids when they don't have


any, how can they talk about kids' futures when they don't have any,


they are not parents. How can they talk about that. Alex Salmond is on


an ego trip, and at the moment they are putting generators in the


governor's house in Edinburgh because he plans to be King Salmond


in his house. You have heard from Gordon Brown this week as well, has


he stirred things up for you, has it been good? I have been very


impressed with Gordon Brown this week with what he said. I would like


to put it in a simplistic term, when you go to buy a house, the house


developer will offer you every incentive possible to buy it, but at


the end of it there is one golden rule, if you don't keep up your


mortgage payments the house gets repossessed. From what I have heard


from Alex Salmond is one thing, we will all be holding hands on Friday


and walking into the sunset and he's not in any shape or form talking


about any negative that is will come at from it. Alex Salmond whichever


way you look at it is no different from any other Westminster MP, and


until people actually realise that we're going down the river.


(Applause) But the accusation he's tried to be a visionary, he has been


unrealistic and he hasn't actually told you the truth. No, no. He's a


good politician. Just one voice please. You in the cream shirt. I


have got a question for the panel here, and for everyone else, this


referendum in the last week or so it has all been about change, up until


a week or ten days ago there was only one side talking about change


and now fair dos it is all about change. What I would like to say is


the UK economy is based 78% on the service industry, the majority of


the service industry is the financial sector, and as far as I


know, maybe the historians will correct me, but money lending has


been around since Jesus was a boy, so what is progressive about it and


what's new when the rest of the world is looking about creating


knowledge-based economies. You have taken us into a very important next


step and we're going to hear from Tom and we will hear from our


historians as well on the economic questions, because they have really


dominated the campaign. The no camp have questioned how sustainable an


independent Scotland would be, whilst the yes side believes that


freed from Westminster Scotland could flourish. So who is right?


Chris Cook and Duncan Weldon have been looking into this.


Why are we here? Well this is the best possible


place, Edinburgh Castle to talk about Scotland, the union and fiscal


policy. Back in 1707 at the Act of Union, part of the deal was England


sent Scotland ?398,000, that is about ?7 billion in today's money as


part of the deal. As a sweetener. Sorry Chris I zoned out, thought it


was an economics report not history lecture. We can bring it up to date


if I ask you one big question. It is fair to say that the campaign has


been a lot more heat than light when it comes to economic, how is this


for a question, if I put you in charge of the yes campaign, how


would you make the case for economic independence. I wouldn't start from


here. If I was making the economic case for yes I would start here,


look at these bridge, amazing infrastructure, just across there


you have a modern, high-tech shipyard. What this place says to


me, there is more to Scotland than this caricature of offshore oil and


a few major dodgy banks. You have high-value whiskey exports, tourism,


modern services. What is often not appreciated, particularly in England


is, at the moment in terms of economic output per head and


national wealth, Scotland is the third-richest part of the UK. Only


London and the south-east of England are ahead in terms of economic


output. This is a strong base in which to launch an independent


economy. OK, all right, but how would an independent Scotland's


fiscal position look? I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask for the


fiscal position. It wouldn't look great. But Scotland at the moment of


independence, yeah they would have a large budget deficit, but, and this


is pretty crucial, it would be smaller than the current UK deficit?


Right, but that's now. So if I were put in charge of the no campaign


which, I appreciate for a bloke from purelily from Purley is pretty


unlikely. Scotland is reliant on the oil wealth but it is in decline. And


its health and wealth expenditure will have to rise faster, the IFS


thinks the line has crossed, Scotland has a worse fiscal position


by 2017, and by 2021 Scotland has to engage in an austerity drive to keep


stable. We are talking about 8p on income tax, or if you prefer 7p on


VAT. So everyone will have tough choices to make in the years to


come. Including the rest of the UK. But in Scotland those choices are


much harder. We are talking about bone-crushing tightness. Thank you


Dr Doom. The Institute of Fiscal Studies, they are well respected but


not infallible. You know as well as I do that any economic forecast is


basically an educated guess. On the demographics nobody says Scotland


doesn't face a head wind, but it is not just about how many workers you


have it is how productive workers are. If Scotland can find way to


boost productivity, that problem looks less pressing. Every


Government wants to boost productivity, what will Scotland do


that it can't do now? That is interesting, at the moment the


Government in Westminster and the opposition in Westminster they are


coming to consensus about increasing productivity and pushing powers down


to a local level and building northern powerhouse, if that is how


you boost the economy, that is just an argument for independence. The


other thing is Scotland would be a small, open economy, it could be


more flexible taking advantage of opportunities, look at Ireland which


slashed corporation tax down and attracted in big business it did a


lot of good there. Ireland shows if you are a small economy you can be


exposed to big international forces. We haven't spoken about things that


Scotland has no control over, for example, it wants to join the


European Union, great, fine, but the Spanish Government thinks it might


take five years for them to get full membership again. Also remember the


currency, we haven't even talked about that. Remember if they don't


get currency union with London and London says they won't give it to


them that they may have to run up big surplus so they can use


sterling. Yeah, but it is no-one's interest for a newly independent


Scotland's economy to fail. It is also not in Scottish interests to be


relying on the kindness of strangers. Still it doesn't really


feel as though there is a sort of killer single knockout argument on


either side on the economics of all of this. But that's true, but on the


other hand is it a good idea to be relying on the kindness of


strangers? It doesn't feel to me as though there has been a big knockout


argument either way in all of this. But I assume there won't be many


people just voting on what it will do to GDP and the fiscal balance.


Not people look back at India and say could the economy have grown


faster without it. Our economics supremos for one night only Duncan


and Chris in the same piece. With us Tom Hunter and historians Neil


Oliver and Fiona Watson. Tom you have a lot of experience globally


around the world, when you think of Scotland as an independent identity,


could it flourish, does small matter? Of course Scotland could


flourish. The question is should Scotland go independent? Not could.


It definitely could. But should it? We have heard a lot tonight about


Scotland being this civil and just society. And I'm slightly worried


that one side is trying to take that. I haven't met anybody who


doesn't believe in a civil and just society. Taking care of those who


can't take care of themselves. (Applause) the fact of the matter


is, and we have poverty campaigners here, and yes I have been to Easter


House and looked at the food banks and I'm really ashamed that in this


home, the place that I call home, we have food banks where we're told


we're this rich nation but we have food banks. That is a disgrace. It


is an absolute disgrace. But the only way we pay for this and this is


something that is absolutely crucial is that Governments don't have


money. Governments spend money. The only way we pay for a civil and just


society is businesses flourishing, paying their taxes, employing


people, et cetera, that is the only way it happens. Applause. Let me go


to Fiona. Implicit in that is an idea that you can't just be


emotional about this, you have got to be a realist. And Scotland could


suffer on its own. Neil when you are talking about the economic, one


person says this and one says that, all I can see from my perspective as


a medieval Scottish historian for most of Scottish history we have


punched above our weight, we have an incredible resource, not just the


physical assets but the people resources. But the issues in Panama


the union was created after it went so wrong. Scotland was in a position


where its king was the king of England and when William of Orange


was here he represented the interests of the East India Company,


it is like having Tesco's, Sainsbury's and Morrisons run with


one head. Don't you believe you are being a bit 19th century saying we


have to have this union, this Great Britain to survive? I don't think it


is 19th century, I think bizarrely when the parliament's unified, when


the kingdom was unified a century before that, it was an incredibly


modern step. We were in the business of take ago -- taking away borders


and to be back in a position of drawing lines on maps is more of


backward step. I think we have already demonstrably had problems


with the union, and the referendum has energised that. Scotland built


the world, the gentleman said we should lead the world not rule the


world. That is Scotland's talent. If we have the tools then we have the


tools now. A lady here will explode if we don't let her talk. It is a


fallacy that you are saying these things. To get back to the 21st


century, to get back to now, you know, the union has not helped


anybody get, hang on... Just a minute, I haven't said anything yet.


Just a second. Finish your point. When you said I think we should be


in the union because I care about the children in food banks in


England and the rest of the UK as well as Scotland. How, it hasn't


worked before? The union has not helped, Westminster and the


Westminster consensus, the neo-liberal Westminster consensus


has never helped kids yet. That is no argument for a union, that is


what I'm saying. I want the perspective of one who has been in


the army, you have served and worked in the army. Tell us what difference


you think it would make if Scotland was on its own? I just think the


threats to Scotland, whether Scotland is in the union or out of


the union, they are probably broadly the same, whether it is


international terrorism, global financial markets, climate change or


good old fashioned state on state conflict. The thing is I believe our


ability as a country to deal with those, to be resilient against them


is much diminished if we are by ourselves and I think for me it is a


terribly simple matter this, we have been focussing on the naval quite a


lot and the things that are close in, and are home and we feel, know


and understand, but actually the world doesn't stop at Gretna or


London, there is an awful lot more of it out there. Do you think an


independent Scotland is a safer country? You have had your hand up?


I would just like to say we keep hearing about the no campaign about


the risks of going into independence. What about the risks


of staying as part of England, the chances are in the general election


we will have a hung parliament, the Conservative Government will be


looking for a coalition, they won't put Cameron in charge, they will


have a coalition with UKIP led by Nigel Farage, do we want to be led


by those two, are they going to show us compassion, I don't think so.


What about Scotland chosing the leader it wants? Alex Salmond has


said a vote for the SNP will get rid of a Tory Government. Oh no it


won't. You are going to get a Tory Government for the rest of your life


because you will sell away the votes of five million Scottish people. You


are going to lose 41 ministers in England. We are going to come back


to this. Through the course of this campaign though the Westminster


leaders have sounded increasingly like desperate boyfriends, pleading


and threatening in equal measure, the language is one of bitter


divorces, break-ups and a marriage that needs a bit of work. Nonsense


says the yes campagin. This is just the lodger who has grown up in his


parents home and knows it is time to leave.


For 300 years, it has been a complicated relationship. The Act of


Union itself was hardly straight forward. Then there was the battle


of cull of Culloden, and the introduction of poll tax, as David


Cameron is fond of pointing out there are ups and downs, the


Scottish enlightenment, men from both of the border caught at


Dunkirk. This is a decision that could break up our family of


nations, and rip Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom.


Independence would not be a trial separation, it would be a painful


divorce. A 300-mile train ride south from Scotland and you arrive here at


King's Cross St Pancras, politicians in London have become increasingly


fond of that kind of language. It is not just independence, it is a


break-up, a split up, the end of a long-term relationship. It is the


language mainly of the no camp, but the SNP has also talked about the


abusive relationship between England and Scotland. Alex Salmond has said


we should be just good friends. Watching the Prime Minister over the


last couple of week, first of all he has said look if you go that's it,


I'm keeping the house, I'm keeping the car, custody of the children, if


you think you can live without me you really are very silly and then


he suddenly realised that this partner is still determined to go


and may well be leaving. And so at that point he sort of pulled out the


big guns with the "I love you so much" and the "please don't no" and


"who will we be without you", "how could we possibly be apart". If


Scotland votes yes it will be a huge challenge, just like a marriage


breaking up or a family being in dissent. It is a huge challenge. It


is not only a negative challenge though. Even when people are in


absolute agony about divorce there is something interesting or


something engaging about there might be something else for me. Even if


you are the wronged party. If the vote does go the way of the


yes camp, there will then be 18 months of tough negotiations before


independence, again the language used is the language of a


relationship, there is talk of dividing the assets, of sharing


custody of military bases. Who owns the assets, does Scotland own the


oil, if Scotland owns the oil who owns the oil rig, what about the


money we have spent developing the oil, is that UK-based, what do we do


about Dolly the sheep, was that a breakthrough for Great Britain, or


was it just a breakthrough for great Scotland. The symbolism in the last


few days of the campaign has been unambiguous, Gordon Brown appeared


in front of giant hearts, love bombing Scottish voters with talk of


togetherness. But at the same time the message from David Cameron in


Westminster has been harder. Walk away and there will be no getting


back together. I think it would have been better to stay away from the


humanisation of to have not used words like "separation" and


"divorce", but we haven't gone that positive route, it has become


D-I-V-O-R-C-E! Have we damaged this relation forever? It will be hard,


and I suspect it is the beginning of a longer process, it really is, it


is going to be tough. Are we going to need some therapy for the


country? We are going to need therapy, I don't know who is up for


the job, it's not me! What are we to make of the language of separation


and divorce, let's discuss with two people of letters, Ian Morrison, a


Scottish writer who recently defected from the yes campaign, and


the poet Jenny Lindsay who is planning to vote yes. What do you


make of this language when we have heard the constant references to


break-ups and divorce and bitterness? I have always found the


marriage rhetoric quite irritating to be honest with you, because while


not disrespecting some of the people who have spoken this evening about


feeling like we're a family of nations. What it is is political


rhetoric designed to silence debate. Because if you start talking about


the independence referendum as being about divorcing, about ripping us


apart and floating off into the North Sea, which we're not planning


on doing, we're planning on staying right here, it silences debate and


makes people feel guilty. It makes people feel bad about leaving their


friends and family. Also feeds into the idea, pardon, intimidating? It


is a bit desperate isn't it? I think in terms of the way that the entire


debate run, you know, some of the things that Jenny is talking about


are things that are also levelled against the yes camp, that they play


with words that the words themselves are intimidatory, I do agree with


Jenny that we should really at this stage get beyond talking in


metaphors, if Alex Salmond is talking about it not being a divorce


or separation, it is a teenage child living with parents and wanting to


leave. Then you go why would you give power to a teenage child to run


Government. It is a bit silly. What else do you do without metaphor, you


don't want drei dry language or currency union debates? Yes itself


is a great big metaphor. In itself it is too loaded with alternative


meanings. I don't think we would have the euphoria around yes if the


wording in the referendum had been the other way round. I think it is


very simplistic, I think the reason that I find the marriage metaphor


quite so irritating, and I will say it is only when politicians do it, I


have seen many artists and writers create brilliant creative responses


using marriage as a metaphor, talking about going through a


process of England and Scotland and the rest of the UK talking and


things like that. That is all grand, but when politicians use it, don't


be under any illusions, it is designed to silence debate and make


you feel scared and make you feel guilty. I suppose it is like Orwell


said political language of all kind, and sure it is on the yes side as


well, it is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable


and give the appearance of solidity to pure whims. When you ask the


audience they say they have felt more energised and more close to


change with this one moment and referendum than at any other time? I


would say that is reactionary because seven days a week the media


is broadcasting opinion as news. Anyone disagree? What about the


media burning Union Jacks up in Scotland, at Bannockburn. They are


burning Union Jacks and that is what will happen. The genie is out of the


bottle and there will be sectarian strive. He's talking about


separation and ripping the heart out of something. Just a second? The BBC


has been accused of bias. David Cameron should have stayed away,


he's not popular in Scotland. However any question that's asked of


the yes campaign, if people ask for answers to any questions, you don't


get answers, you get told you are scaremongering, there is no actual


answers given. We have got two hand, yours at the back and then I will


come to you. It is resorting to metaphor, my granddad was a northern


English trade unionist who married a middle-class Scottish Tory, on paper


that shouldn't have worked, it is like the union itself, on paper you


think we are two completely different countries and yet it has


worked, that is the great thing about the union and what makes the


United Kingdom and a Great Britain. Maybe that is right, maybe you are


looking at something up here. What I said earlier, the problem is one of


democracy, who gets to choose what happens in Scotland, when Neil


Oliver was on earlier on, he praised the union and how we show concern


for other people, the fact of the matter is the Labour Party, which


has been elected in Scotland, directs its concerns to the concerns


of the City of London and the much, much bigger country, which is


England which forms part of the union, we do not get our own choices


here. Right, we have come to a pretty key


moment in the show, because tomorrow our handful of undecided will have


to bite the bullet. We have asked one person from the audience to make


a brief final pitch. We will go first to the no campaign, Gary you


volunteered to do this, I will keep you to a minute? A yes vote tomorrow


is a vote for your vision of an independent Scotland. That is the


problem with the campaign so far, if you look at the no campaign you can


see where the division s you can see Labour, Tories and Liberal


Democrats, all campaigning for a no, but all trying to get their digs in


each other at the same time. That hasn't been seen in the yes


campaign, the reason is all they are asking for is independence, without


any idea what will follow afterwards. As part of that campaign


there are people who want to create a new oil boom on the same side as


greens. There are people like Business for Scotland who want to


cut corporation tax and make this place aer in van a that for


business, at the same time there are people who are socialists and who


want more tax and spend in Scotland. Day after a yes vote those people


will be at loggerheads with each other and take the arguments we have


in the UK and scale it down to the level of Scotland, and the same


squabbling on a smaller scale. I will stop you there and give Billy


the time to make the pitch for the yes vote. Let's hear Billy talk to


the undecided voters. We are always accused on the yes side of not being


able to answer questions, and we always respond with talking about


scaremongering, but we heard tonight somebody saying that if we vote yes


we are looking down the barrel at a financial crisis. I would just like


to say where have we been for the last six years. This country is ?1.


4 trillion in debt. Financial crisi scare monger, you are talking ing, I


have been asking one question of the no side for the last two years and I


have not heard one sensible answer yet so unbehalf of these people here


in what way does any country benefit from being subservient to another


country. Thank you very much. And now it is down to you three in the


middle, Jason, I will start with you, has anything you heard tonight


from the people up here, from your fellow audience members changed your


mind, helped you make your mind up? Unfortunately I would probably say


no, I'm in the same position I was before. But that is swinging this


way, to Gary's point. I would rather a rabble after an independence vote


than the homogeneous mess than we have in Westminster right now. Sorry


we are out of time, Lindsay your feelings? I have been disappointed


by a lot of the negativity put forward by the no side of the


audience and also a lot of real focussing on neo-liberal economic


arguments, I want to live in a community not an economy. I want a


Scotland based on equality and not the markets, I think that we have


more of a chance for that under a yes vote. Have you just been won


over, that sounds like two yes. Anne-Marie we started with you and


will end with you, what are you feeling? I have heard both sides it


is massively compelling to have somebody say in your house you look


after your own finances because you have got your own interests. I don't


think it is a selfish premise to say that you are being selfish to your


neighbours that live two and three houses down because you are


controlling your own budget and looking after your own house, I


think it is a compelling argument and I probably would say there is


more positivity coming from this side and it has been very negative.


Your husband is on this side? I will speak to him when I go home. Thank


you all very much indeed. A terrific audience with us. That is all we


have time for, just to remind you, as if you didn't know, the polls


open at 7.00 tomorrow, that is 7-and-a-half hours time. Kirsty is


back tomorrow from Edinburgh, from all of us here, good night. Thanks


for watching. Er The low cloud along the east


coast is pushing back inland overnight. It will be a grey misty


start for many of us, patchy fog into Scotland and north-east


England. We should see the


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